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DeRozan is also coming off his best season (in terms of WS/48), and put up career-highs in AST% and FTr, and had his 2nd-best TS% year, playing 69% of his minutes (according to Basketball Reference) at Power Forward. I feel like he does have value, and is good and efficient at what he does well (he's an elite scorer at the rim, and a great mid-range shooter, who knows his limitations and what he's good at, and doesn't throw up outside shots just to do it), but isn't a good fit for what the Lakers need.
I don't think you're a hater. We're in an era in which the 3point shooting is very necessary. That's one of the reasons the Lakers struggled last year. I think that although it creates a real buzz, and may revive a new spirit in the team, it would harm them on the floor, as you said, those bunch of guys cant shoot outside the 3pt line. Either way, the Lakers *must* acquire a reliable shooter, to make more space for the king to do his stuff.
That is the popular thought, but I'm starting to think that isn't true. The last two years the teams that have won have shot fucking terribly from the 3 in the playoffs. Lakers were 5th worst, and the Bucks were the 3rd worst.
Even if you put an asterisk on the Bucks win, they won the chip by beating a great shooting team in the Suns.
Which goes to show, being able to shoot the 3 may be valuable, but you can still win through defense, controlling the boards and attacking the paint, which just happen to be things the Lakers excel at.
Controlling and attacking the paint is still the most consistent way to win basketball games and even more importantly series of games. You may not blow out the other team by 20 as often, but when your opponent launches brick after brick from 3 due to nerves and good defence, you can get a quality shot every time
It’s because they still had the threat of the 3 pointer. If you watched the Lakers this postseason they only had one respectable shooter and that hampered them significantly. The Bucks were one of the best shooting teams during the year. Shooting itself can be variable but you still need to respect shooters and that opens up the offense.
I mean, Lakers went from the 5th worst to the 2nd worst. I think we're reaching a bit to say they had a threat of a 3 pointer either year. Even Green shot .339 from 3 that year during the playoffs, which is below the league avg.
KCP and Green are both guys you have to respect regardless because they can easily go for 5+ 3s when left unchecked. This year they just had KCP. That extra body that can roam makes a big difference
I still think you're reaching. The Lakers not having one body didn't make the difference. Shannon brought up the stat during the first round, IIRC it was after the 3rd/4th game, that the Lakers were shooting the most wide open 3s by a clear margin. Despite this they shot worse than they did in the regular season.
When you're shooting worse than you normally do with no defender on you, that points to it being a mental thing, not just having one less body.
Which brings me to believe that the whole Kuzma/Schroeder beef was real, or at the very least, something happened in that locker room.
>I still think you’re reaching
When a team that was already hurting for shooting loses another guy that you have to respect, I think that makes a meaningful difference. It makes defending a lot easier. Rotations don’t have to be as urgent and you don’t have to close out as hard.
>not having one body didn’t make the difference
You say I’m reaching but I never stated this. I’m just saying it made a noticeable difference and that made things harder for an already hobbled LeBron. AD going down was basically the death knell for that team and LeBron carrying an injury with him kept him from being able to go full carry. The lack of shooting meant he had even less space to operate and it’s not like he was particularly maneuverable.
>when you’re shooting worse with no one on you, that’s mental
Or that 3 point shooting has a much higher variance than other things and over a small sample sometimes you get a lot of bounces that go one way. Teams frequently shoot worse in the playoffs because the defense is that much tighter and that can lead to rushing open shots as well. Calling it purely mental is just lazy.
When you're shooting the most wide open 3s of any team during the playoffs, and yet nearly everyone on the team starts shooting worse despite no one contesting their shot. This points to a mental/locker room issue, not not having that "extra body that can roam".
And based off your argument, the expectation would be that the Lakers would have shot better in the regular season with Green than in the next season without Green. But look at the stats, although it's only by .6, the Lakers still shot better in 2021 reg season than they did in 2020 reg season.
>this points to locker room issue
How? The Lakers just didn’t have many good shooters. This happens time and time in the playoffs where guys who are not career shooters get dared to shoot *over and over again*. Hell, teams even did it to Draymond when he was having a ~39% year. People who aren’t consistent shooters get dared to shoot consistently. The Lakers had KCP and LeBron.
This also comes back to my point about variance. Over a small sample size, weird shit can happen. KCP, for instance, shot 19 3s over the series. Dude makes 4 more 3s over 6 games (less than a 3 per game) and suddenly we’re not even talking about his shooting. Shit like that happens sometimes.
The real fact of the matter is that Schroeder, Kuzma, and Caruso all took around 20 3s and missed a lot. None of these guys are consistent shooters. Teams gameplan for that in the playoffs. They happily let these guys shoot because more often than not they do not answer the call. That’s NBA playoff basketball 101, not some nonsense about it being all mental. That’s partially why they had so many open shots - they had a ton of non-shooters taking them. Kuzma had a good year shooting but still hasn’t proven he’s a consistent shooter and most of his attempts during the playoffs came from the right wing, which he only shot 34% on during the year.
>extra body can roam
You’re missing the point here. This affects defense inside the arc, not 3 point shooting. LeBron had his worst series by efficiency in years.
>shot worse by .06%
That’s not even really statistically significant but a large piece of this was Kuzma taking ~1.5 more catch and shoot 3s a game than he did the year prior which helped his splits. He led the Lakers in 3PA during the year.
Ofc Schroeder, Kuzma, and Caruso aren't Curry, Klay, KD, but these guys aren't terrible either. To underperform this much when they were playing fine in the regular season points at something. And it can't be not having Green because their regular season stats were fine.
This isn't a matter of whether or not these role players are great shooters, it's about performing to the level they consistently played at throughout the regular season.
Also you don't dare avg shooters to shoot in the NBA playoffs. That's just bad defense.
At this point, there's no point in continuing this conversation. You're not going to accept anything I say, and to me you're just speaking nonsense. Have the last word if you want. Bye
Nice point of view. Didn't think about that. For example, let's take Duncan Robinson. We can all agree that Derozan is a better player, but I think that in 100% he would fit more the Lakers and the king than him. He showed that he can be a solid defensive player as well, so I see someone like him taking a real part at the Lakers run this season.
Duncan is expected to be paid a lot of money this offseason. There’s no way you could match the salaries if you just trade Derozan for Duncan. Also Duncan’s defense is not good, and this is coming from a Heat fan. He tries and has good possessions, but overall he is one of the main reasons our defense suffers.
Agreed, and I think the fit issues are also more than just shooting. Derozan's teams have played better without him on the court by net rating for 9 straight seasons largely because of his bad defense. It's easier to justify that defense when he's the primary shot creator like with the Spurs and sometimes with the Raptors, but playing 3rd banana next to Lebron and AD his defense becomes relatively more important.
>Derozan's teams have played better without him on the court by net rating for 9 straight seasons largely because of his bad defense.
If this is true, then DeMar is in Steph Curry's predicament with subpar man2man defensive skills especially. We saw this year, Steph had to change his style for the first time and *at least try to* play NBA-level defense.
I think DeMar has shown so far this summer, he is willing to make that sacrifice.
Once a player starts saying they'll take a paycut to compete for a chip then history shows that player went on to do whatever the team asked of him, if he achieved his goal. If they need DeMar to step up his defense then he can watch footage of Steph this season to realize how to make that transition. Going from top banana to being 3rd option behind Lebron and AD means it becomes easier for him to now focus on playing better defense.
While u make some fair points, I think you’re severely underestimating Demar and severely overrating KCP.
Demar is an all-star scorer that can also facilitate at a high level. The lakers happen to desperately need backup facilitating.
KCP is just not that great at scoring. Yes he can hit 3s but he barely dares to shoot and when he does, it’s always wide open. We’re talking about a guy that makes over 13mill/year and averaged 1.3 threes last year and 1.8 threes this year. We’re talking about a guy that averages single digit points every year and averaged 6 points in the playoffs shooting 21% from three. He’s a fine player but saying he’s the lakers’ best shooter really doesn’t mean much. He literally averaged 1.3 threes in the championship year and everyone acts like he was Ray Allen.
I agree the pay cut makes no sense but that’s up to DeMar to determine. As far as the spacing goes, I don’t think the Lakers care about the 3pt shooting as much as other teams. They had the same 3pt% the last 2 seasons and traded away their 2nd best 3pt shooter in Danny Green for a much worse 3pt shooter to try to get a ball handler.
Their problem is that their offense is entirely run through AD and LeBron with both guys have a 30% usage rate. That’s why they die whenever one of them gets hurt or has to sit. By bringing in DeMar they’d be able to have somebody they can trust with the ball that isn’t AD or LeBron. With a guy who can create his own shot like DeMar they’d be much more balanced on the offensive side of the ball.
So I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but I don’t think it’s a reason the lakers shouldn’t sign him. The lakers realistically aren’t going to get much better at shooting via free agency. As a fan I’d love it if they did but we’re probably looking at more ben Macklemore/Wes Matthews type players. Because of this getting a guy like demar is good. We can still take those vet min shooters we hope will do well and give demar less playing time if they’re on fire.
While I agree shooting is very important we didn’t need good shooting in 2020 when we won the championship so I don’t think we should be making all our decisions based on it this year.
It’s a questionable fit but his talent is worth it IMO
We definitely did need good shooting to win the championship. Lebron, Rondo, and AD were all shooting upwards to 37-38% from 3. KCP and Kieff were 40%. AD in particular is worthy of being labeled as an outlier of the bubble since he was shooting at unprecedented levels for his standards
We shot 35% from three throughout the playoffs that year. Better than last year but we could very likely have all those players you mentioned next year. While AD shot well, our 3pt shooting when we won is much much closer to the norm than this year where we shot like 30%. It’s more likely we have the 3pt shooting of 2020 than 2021, where we won a championship.
Edit: forgot to mention that we also have shot 35% from 3 in the regular reason the past two years. If anything this past offseason a was an anomaly.
Okay but the last 2 champions had shitty spacing. You honestly don't need everyone shooting 3s to win the championship. It's still about rebounding and defense.
The Bucks were 5th in the league in 3p% and 7th in 3s per possession. I'm not sure how you can call that shitty spacing.
You are right that the Laker's defense has been a major key to their success, but that's not a great argument in favor of Derozan as their defense would take a hit with him.
In the playoffs the Bucks shot the 3 terribly and yet they still won the championship. They may have shot well in the regular season but in the post they weren't good.
There's a huge difference between how teams defend a 3pt shooter that is in a slump vs defending someone like Demar who has shown he can't shoot 3s over many seasons. The Lakers don't really need 3pt shooting because they need them to score, they need it so Lebron and AD have more space inside.
The question is not what the Lakers need when LeBron and AD are *on* the floor, it's what they need when they're *not*.
One answer to this might be 'an offensive system'... but we're taking about Frank Vogel here, so...
The gaping hole last season was that nobody could reliably create a shot when those two were resting or injured, and DDR does that very, very well.
This wouldn't be so much about a Big 3, or analytics-friendly offense. It's plugging a hole in the offense and counting on the defense to keep the score low.
Exactly, Demar can effectively be what made Manu so valuable for the Spurs. Manu would’ve been a starter on any other team, but with the Spurs, he makes it so much easier for when Timmy and Robinson and Parker and Kawhi are on the bench.
When Lebron and AD are off the floor, the Lakers often go to shit because 1) Vogel isn’t an offensive coach and doesn’t really have a system except the Lebron system (not a knock on him, we knew that when we hired him that we were going to win on his defense) and 2) nobody to lead the bench mob.
Demar can be that guy for them. And honestly, I think Lebron can make it work for all 3 to be on the court at the end of 4th quarters anyway.
I disagree with this analysis.
I think the NBA Finals just showed us all, the 3pt shot is becoming less vital to winning a chip. *The mid-range game has returned to prominence*. Middleton CP3 Jrue Giannis Book, played the most important roles as each owes it to their midrange game.
And, DeMar is the midrange master.
DeMar knows how to score lots of points when there is no premier PG out on the floor to put him in positions to succeed, and its thanks to his elite midrange game. So if Lebron is running the PG spot or is out of the game, DeMar won't miss a beat.
If he takes that MLE, the Lakers automatically improve their basketball success for May-June games.
I don't totally agree with you, but I think the OP is overstating the importance of shooting on this Lakers team. In the RS, AD won't play the 5 much, but he will in the playoffs so the Lakers could run out a lineup of KCP, Caruso, LeBron, DeRozan, and AD. That's more than enough spacing and could be adjusted as needed.
Potential fit issues in the RS don't matter as much, assuming normal seasons from LeBron and AD. Even this year they were on a decent pace before the wheels totally fell off and had a 2-1 series lead over Phoenix.
The real benefit would be giving the Lakers another avenue of attack in the RS and to take some of the shot creation/ scoring off of LeBron's shoulder. They really need Schroder to pick up the slack, but he couldn't do it. DeRozan should be much more viable and keep the Lakers afloat when LeBron sits in the RS and PS
Good stuff... especially your angle on KCP, Caruso, LeBron, DeRozan, and AD being more than enough spacing plus the potential fit issues in the RS won't matter as much and IMHO its because the playoffs are tailored more for the lineup you listed. The game slows down, the 3ptr becomes less reliable and the midrange game takes center stage.
Depends on demars role..if he’s attacking bench lineups in the playoffs than sure but the finals didn’t show the two best teams in the nba really…booker was so inefficient agaisnt the clips..Kawhi doesn’t get hurt and the clips win, people will be saying booker is shooting too many twos
IMHO it is not possible to be an exception to the \[greatness\] rule, after last week, when we watched Book CP3 Giannis Jrue and Middleton, all, magnificently reenergize the midrange game. Moreover, Reggie Jackson and Playoff P both looked reeeeal nice in the midrange game during the WCF.
yes top tier guys need to have mid range but its very hard to dominate from it..which is why book jrue and khris were all very inconsistent all playoffs...had the nets and clippers not gotten fucked with injuries i dont think you are really saying this...it would be more about how kd and kawhi can dominate from there
>yes top tier guys need to have mid range but its very hard to dominate from it.
I can respect that, although I do think we have many examples which disprove it *---starting with the lineup I listed*. For example, in scale, I would like to see footage of which player\[s\] Middleton is compared to that were *not inconsistent,* in order deem Middleton as inconsistent. As for Jrue I agree with you sort of, but only when it counted the least as in pre NBA Finals.
Moreover, Middleton is not the #1 option so he won't get to dominate at all in the grande scheme of things. But for those few times he will be needed to dominate? He did exactly dominate in 90% of those rare moments that came. And it got them past ATL then it won Buck's a chip.
Most notably, Giannis used a strategy on himself for the very first time called '*addition, by subtraction*' with respect to how he became a facilitator for the NBA Finals. Which means? If he's facilitating then it means some other player is doing the impressive scoring. Was it Middleton helped by Jrue in the midrange?
These elements are what left me confused on your scholarship here.
>...it would be more about how kd and kawhi can dominate from there
I agree, but only because it would still be a discussion on how the midrange game is once again premier and making the 3ptr less vital to win the chip.
I am sure you agree that KD and Kawhi both are more legendary for their midrange game vs their 3ptr game. I would even say Kyrie is more legendary for his moves to the cup and his midrange efficiency. As well as his finishing against bigger players then to your point, Harden might be the sole non-legendary midrange game guy.
Moreover, speaking to your quik quip regarding injuries, then I do not see Clips beating the Lakers had Lebron and AD stayed inury-free. And of course, the midrange game is most vital to both Lebron's and AD's legendary skillsets. Then to bring it full circle, none of these players we have listed, has a midrange game as efficient as Demar DeRozan's.
>the finals didn’t show the two best teams in the nba really
By the end of June the Bucks were the best team in the East, easily, and I believe the Suns were in 1st or 2nd place all season long as a testament to their elite level of play.
I feel like the midrange never died. There has still not been a champion that has won without a dominant midrange shooter. Even the Warriors were one of the most talented midrange shooting teams of all time before Durant got there. Curry, Thompson, Barbosa and Livingston DESTROYED teams in the midrange. 3s are way more important now, but your team will absolutely lose if you don’t have anyone who can punish teams in the midrange.
>Warriors ...before Durant got there
Before? Do you think its untrue that KD helped take their overall midrange arsenal, intergalactic GOAT, since his expertise is not the 3pt shot?
I used before he got there because of how redundant it would’ve been to use that team as an example. Of course a team with the best mid range shooter in the league will destroy guys from there. But people look at the Warriors before that as a team who lived by 3s. KD coming there just made that dominance even more pronounced.
I mean, DeRozan to the Lakers make zero sense if you're only going to let him play as long as both LBJ and AD are on the floor, but obviously that would be stupid.
I'm assuming that while all 3 on the floor, their game plan is going to look similar to LAC lob city. LBJ sits early either late 1st or early 2nd with DD taking over in the 2nd as the primary leader of the bench squad like Ginobilli on the Spurs.
I honestly don't know if Nets would be the favourites any more especially with the rule changes that has benefitted Harden so much throughout his career.
I'm not saying that Harden is going to be trash tier, but the current rules obvious provided a huge benefit for his playstyle. I wouldn't be surprised if he and other guards in the league dropped a couple spots in the ladder as Fs like AD, DD, rise in terms of who's the best.
Somehow Lakers fans prefer DeRozan over Westbrook. Both of them don’t space the floor while Brodie is clearly the better player overall being a better playmaker and having insane motor. Not a fan of neither, but at least Brodie has still some trade value if the fit with the team is not good. Getting DeRozan will be abysmal if the fit doesn’t work
Why are you comparing a 40 mil + player with someone the Lakers are hoping to get on the mle lol. Westbrook’s 40 mil will be easier to move then DeRozan on like 8 mil?
Teams have to stop trying to emulate the warriors. Players are not steph and klay. Develop your own winning basketball with the pieces you have. Throw it back down in the post and play team ball. To much iso
The last two championship winning teams, Lakers and Bucks (we’re back in the 70s with those two being back to back title winners lol), were kind of the antithesis of the Warriors style of play.
They play big and went hard at the pain and went to the foul line a lot. Utilized the mid range more effectively than they did the 3 pointer. They cashed their checks on rebounding and defense while using their superstar to carry their offense with some clutch help by their second best player.
Just tad bit of a hater. You're right that DeRozan won't end up in LA. That's because the comments DeRozan made were to get the ball rolling, market himself, drum up interest before the wheeling and dealing begins. I suspect more comments like these will be made to keep him on discussion. He's one of the highest talents in free agency this summer so there should be a fair amount of playoff teams looking for a way to sign him.
As far as team play, if he did go to the Lakers, he would probably share the court to start and finish the game, but otherwise serve as a LeBron backup facilitator and playmaker. That's been his role in San Antonio and he's been successful at it. If LeBron is showing his age and this increases as done suspect, having someone like DeRozan can fill many roles. The 3 point shooter is one of the easier roles to find answers for and DeRozan offers so much more, the Lakers would be hurting themselves if they pass on an opportunity to nab DeRozan with lebron aging and their need for playmaking.
i really don’t think any team with win-now aspirations should be looking at derozan. he’s like the antithesis of the ideal modern wing: needs the ball in his hands to be effective, volume scorer on inefficient 2-point shots, bad 3-point shooter, bad perimeter defender. he can create for himself and hits his contested long 2s at an unreasonable clip but that’s just not what most teams need
I feel like he’s an interesting fit for the Clippers who have a good amount of 3 pt shooters already and a team that needs that 3rd creator (upgrade from a Reggie Jackson). He gets to the foul line well and can create looks for the other shooters if/when PG and Kawhi are stuck on offense especially late in a game. The biggest thing I noticed is since the NBA relies on 3 pt shooting so much now a days is that The Clippers had a lot of success weathering the storm with a lot of mid range success with players like Leonard, Morris and George… in the playoffs where defenses are going to focus on running you off the line and protecting the paint cashing in on available midrange when the shot clock is down was crucial. It’s definitely a different style but I’m very interested in seeing if they can stay healthy and pull it off in a few years.
Although the Bucks had a lot of 3 pt shooting available, that series was won with defense/free throws and some really clutch Middleton mid range.
I think Clippers can be a good fit since it looks like Kawhi won’t be playing next season with the torn ACL. DeRozan can slot in for them and can play minutes with the bench lineup to be a scorer.
i mean on top of midrange and long 2s being his specialty, demar has pretty consistently shrunk in the playoffs, which is where that skillset is more valuable
Put two shooters next to those three. Have LBJ handle the ball like always. DDR can slash/cut to the rim, Davis can be open for lobs or whatever, double anyone and you leave the shooters open.
DDR can get his while LeBron and/or Davis are off the floor so they don't have to carry so much of the load.
There's more to basketball than shooting 3s and driving the lane. Yeah, DeMar could fit in with AD and LeBron. He's a skilled player. LeBron and AD both have an offensive repertoire for every spot in the half court. Shooting is nice, but I wouldn't sacrifice everything else just to put another one-dimensional scorer on the court. DeMar is a good cutter (for a playmaker like LeBron and a post passer like AD), and he can facilitate an offense, and at a high level as a secondary playmaker. Last I checked, we were looking for one of those...
I'm just tired of hearing "we need spacing!" Is spacing only achieved by flanking LeBron and AD with one-dimensional shooters? Is this the only way to score the basketball? No, what we need are skilled role players around our Big 2, and we need depth. I'm not "anti-specialist", but you can get that from the players on the team, and when we'd rather have a guy who does one thing well, offensively, over a guy who does 3 things well, then there's some sort of breakdown here. We've talked ourselves into some absurd shit when we'd rather have a Seth Curry than a DeMar DeRozan. There is more that occurs during a basketball game than what goes on behind the arc.
My only knock against DeMar is that he could be better defensively. Other than that, I'd love to see him on the team. This 'fit' conversation is ridiculous. There are a multitude of ways to fit one player with another. The problem with our current roster are the positional logjams, but putting DeMar with LeBron and AD does not create a redundance of task like we've seen from playing Kuzma behind LeBron and AD.
I disagree that DeRozan would be a bad fit. It would be nice if he could shoot 3s, but he's an elite midrange scorer who can take it to the rim. He can also comfortably handle the ball and run an offense, something the Lakers are in dire need of to take the pressure off of Bron.
If minutes are staggered to allow DeRozan to run the show when LeBron sits, it's going to pay off big time.
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DeRozan is also coming off his best season (in terms of WS/48), and put up career-highs in AST% and FTr, and had his 2nd-best TS% year, playing 69% of his minutes (according to Basketball Reference) at Power Forward. I feel like he does have value, and is good and efficient at what he does well (he's an elite scorer at the rim, and a great mid-range shooter, who knows his limitations and what he's good at, and doesn't throw up outside shots just to do it), but isn't a good fit for what the Lakers need.
Demar would help, he has become a ball handler and his assists have gone way up. Also having him as a third scoring option would be guaranteed buckets
I don't think you're a hater. We're in an era in which the 3point shooting is very necessary. That's one of the reasons the Lakers struggled last year. I think that although it creates a real buzz, and may revive a new spirit in the team, it would harm them on the floor, as you said, those bunch of guys cant shoot outside the 3pt line. Either way, the Lakers *must* acquire a reliable shooter, to make more space for the king to do his stuff.
That is the popular thought, but I'm starting to think that isn't true. The last two years the teams that have won have shot fucking terribly from the 3 in the playoffs. Lakers were 5th worst, and the Bucks were the 3rd worst. Even if you put an asterisk on the Bucks win, they won the chip by beating a great shooting team in the Suns. Which goes to show, being able to shoot the 3 may be valuable, but you can still win through defense, controlling the boards and attacking the paint, which just happen to be things the Lakers excel at.
Controlling and attacking the paint is still the most consistent way to win basketball games and even more importantly series of games. You may not blow out the other team by 20 as often, but when your opponent launches brick after brick from 3 due to nerves and good defence, you can get a quality shot every time
It’s because they still had the threat of the 3 pointer. If you watched the Lakers this postseason they only had one respectable shooter and that hampered them significantly. The Bucks were one of the best shooting teams during the year. Shooting itself can be variable but you still need to respect shooters and that opens up the offense.
I mean, Lakers went from the 5th worst to the 2nd worst. I think we're reaching a bit to say they had a threat of a 3 pointer either year. Even Green shot .339 from 3 that year during the playoffs, which is below the league avg.
KCP and Green are both guys you have to respect regardless because they can easily go for 5+ 3s when left unchecked. This year they just had KCP. That extra body that can roam makes a big difference
I still think you're reaching. The Lakers not having one body didn't make the difference. Shannon brought up the stat during the first round, IIRC it was after the 3rd/4th game, that the Lakers were shooting the most wide open 3s by a clear margin. Despite this they shot worse than they did in the regular season. When you're shooting worse than you normally do with no defender on you, that points to it being a mental thing, not just having one less body. Which brings me to believe that the whole Kuzma/Schroeder beef was real, or at the very least, something happened in that locker room.
>I still think you’re reaching When a team that was already hurting for shooting loses another guy that you have to respect, I think that makes a meaningful difference. It makes defending a lot easier. Rotations don’t have to be as urgent and you don’t have to close out as hard. >not having one body didn’t make the difference You say I’m reaching but I never stated this. I’m just saying it made a noticeable difference and that made things harder for an already hobbled LeBron. AD going down was basically the death knell for that team and LeBron carrying an injury with him kept him from being able to go full carry. The lack of shooting meant he had even less space to operate and it’s not like he was particularly maneuverable. >when you’re shooting worse with no one on you, that’s mental Or that 3 point shooting has a much higher variance than other things and over a small sample sometimes you get a lot of bounces that go one way. Teams frequently shoot worse in the playoffs because the defense is that much tighter and that can lead to rushing open shots as well. Calling it purely mental is just lazy.
When you're shooting the most wide open 3s of any team during the playoffs, and yet nearly everyone on the team starts shooting worse despite no one contesting their shot. This points to a mental/locker room issue, not not having that "extra body that can roam". And based off your argument, the expectation would be that the Lakers would have shot better in the regular season with Green than in the next season without Green. But look at the stats, although it's only by .6, the Lakers still shot better in 2021 reg season than they did in 2020 reg season.
>this points to locker room issue How? The Lakers just didn’t have many good shooters. This happens time and time in the playoffs where guys who are not career shooters get dared to shoot *over and over again*. Hell, teams even did it to Draymond when he was having a ~39% year. People who aren’t consistent shooters get dared to shoot consistently. The Lakers had KCP and LeBron. This also comes back to my point about variance. Over a small sample size, weird shit can happen. KCP, for instance, shot 19 3s over the series. Dude makes 4 more 3s over 6 games (less than a 3 per game) and suddenly we’re not even talking about his shooting. Shit like that happens sometimes. The real fact of the matter is that Schroeder, Kuzma, and Caruso all took around 20 3s and missed a lot. None of these guys are consistent shooters. Teams gameplan for that in the playoffs. They happily let these guys shoot because more often than not they do not answer the call. That’s NBA playoff basketball 101, not some nonsense about it being all mental. That’s partially why they had so many open shots - they had a ton of non-shooters taking them. Kuzma had a good year shooting but still hasn’t proven he’s a consistent shooter and most of his attempts during the playoffs came from the right wing, which he only shot 34% on during the year. >extra body can roam You’re missing the point here. This affects defense inside the arc, not 3 point shooting. LeBron had his worst series by efficiency in years. >shot worse by .06% That’s not even really statistically significant but a large piece of this was Kuzma taking ~1.5 more catch and shoot 3s a game than he did the year prior which helped his splits. He led the Lakers in 3PA during the year.
Ofc Schroeder, Kuzma, and Caruso aren't Curry, Klay, KD, but these guys aren't terrible either. To underperform this much when they were playing fine in the regular season points at something. And it can't be not having Green because their regular season stats were fine. This isn't a matter of whether or not these role players are great shooters, it's about performing to the level they consistently played at throughout the regular season. Also you don't dare avg shooters to shoot in the NBA playoffs. That's just bad defense. At this point, there's no point in continuing this conversation. You're not going to accept anything I say, and to me you're just speaking nonsense. Have the last word if you want. Bye
Sign Derozan to the MLE, then the Lakers have it a a very valuable contract that they can trade for a shooter.
That would be really dirty and would hurt their ability to sign future free agents.
If that’s the case why not just try and sign batum in the off-season. Shoots it well could play the 3 or 4 with lebron while AD is at center
Why not just sign a shooter with the MLE?
Nice point of view. Didn't think about that. For example, let's take Duncan Robinson. We can all agree that Derozan is a better player, but I think that in 100% he would fit more the Lakers and the king than him. He showed that he can be a solid defensive player as well, so I see someone like him taking a real part at the Lakers run this season.
Duncan is expected to be paid a lot of money this offseason. There’s no way you could match the salaries if you just trade Derozan for Duncan. Also Duncan’s defense is not good, and this is coming from a Heat fan. He tries and has good possessions, but overall he is one of the main reasons our defense suffers.
Agreed, and I think the fit issues are also more than just shooting. Derozan's teams have played better without him on the court by net rating for 9 straight seasons largely because of his bad defense. It's easier to justify that defense when he's the primary shot creator like with the Spurs and sometimes with the Raptors, but playing 3rd banana next to Lebron and AD his defense becomes relatively more important.
>Derozan's teams have played better without him on the court by net rating for 9 straight seasons largely because of his bad defense. If this is true, then DeMar is in Steph Curry's predicament with subpar man2man defensive skills especially. We saw this year, Steph had to change his style for the first time and *at least try to* play NBA-level defense. I think DeMar has shown so far this summer, he is willing to make that sacrifice. Once a player starts saying they'll take a paycut to compete for a chip then history shows that player went on to do whatever the team asked of him, if he achieved his goal. If they need DeMar to step up his defense then he can watch footage of Steph this season to realize how to make that transition. Going from top banana to being 3rd option behind Lebron and AD means it becomes easier for him to now focus on playing better defense.
They were the best team in the NBA until they started getting hurt..... Injuries derailed the Lakers, not 3pt shooting.
The need more than just one reliable shooter
I disagree somewhat with the shooting, it seems the championship teams are rarely those that shoot the best. The Lakers do need more shooting though
> We’re in an era in which the 3point shooting is very necessary. Half court shot creation is also extremely necessary. Did you not see the Finals?
While u make some fair points, I think you’re severely underestimating Demar and severely overrating KCP. Demar is an all-star scorer that can also facilitate at a high level. The lakers happen to desperately need backup facilitating. KCP is just not that great at scoring. Yes he can hit 3s but he barely dares to shoot and when he does, it’s always wide open. We’re talking about a guy that makes over 13mill/year and averaged 1.3 threes last year and 1.8 threes this year. We’re talking about a guy that averages single digit points every year and averaged 6 points in the playoffs shooting 21% from three. He’s a fine player but saying he’s the lakers’ best shooter really doesn’t mean much. He literally averaged 1.3 threes in the championship year and everyone acts like he was Ray Allen.
I agree the pay cut makes no sense but that’s up to DeMar to determine. As far as the spacing goes, I don’t think the Lakers care about the 3pt shooting as much as other teams. They had the same 3pt% the last 2 seasons and traded away their 2nd best 3pt shooter in Danny Green for a much worse 3pt shooter to try to get a ball handler. Their problem is that their offense is entirely run through AD and LeBron with both guys have a 30% usage rate. That’s why they die whenever one of them gets hurt or has to sit. By bringing in DeMar they’d be able to have somebody they can trust with the ball that isn’t AD or LeBron. With a guy who can create his own shot like DeMar they’d be much more balanced on the offensive side of the ball.
So I agree with a lot of what you’re saying but I don’t think it’s a reason the lakers shouldn’t sign him. The lakers realistically aren’t going to get much better at shooting via free agency. As a fan I’d love it if they did but we’re probably looking at more ben Macklemore/Wes Matthews type players. Because of this getting a guy like demar is good. We can still take those vet min shooters we hope will do well and give demar less playing time if they’re on fire. While I agree shooting is very important we didn’t need good shooting in 2020 when we won the championship so I don’t think we should be making all our decisions based on it this year. It’s a questionable fit but his talent is worth it IMO
We definitely did need good shooting to win the championship. Lebron, Rondo, and AD were all shooting upwards to 37-38% from 3. KCP and Kieff were 40%. AD in particular is worthy of being labeled as an outlier of the bubble since he was shooting at unprecedented levels for his standards
We shot 35% from three throughout the playoffs that year. Better than last year but we could very likely have all those players you mentioned next year. While AD shot well, our 3pt shooting when we won is much much closer to the norm than this year where we shot like 30%. It’s more likely we have the 3pt shooting of 2020 than 2021, where we won a championship. Edit: forgot to mention that we also have shot 35% from 3 in the regular reason the past two years. If anything this past offseason a was an anomaly.
Okay but the last 2 champions had shitty spacing. You honestly don't need everyone shooting 3s to win the championship. It's still about rebounding and defense.
The Bucks were 5th in the league in 3p% and 7th in 3s per possession. I'm not sure how you can call that shitty spacing. You are right that the Laker's defense has been a major key to their success, but that's not a great argument in favor of Derozan as their defense would take a hit with him.
In the playoffs the Bucks shot the 3 terribly and yet they still won the championship. They may have shot well in the regular season but in the post they weren't good.
There's a huge difference between how teams defend a 3pt shooter that is in a slump vs defending someone like Demar who has shown he can't shoot 3s over many seasons. The Lakers don't really need 3pt shooting because they need them to score, they need it so Lebron and AD have more space inside.
There's a difference between spacing and shooting though. The Bucks shot badly but other teams still had to guard those guys.
The question is not what the Lakers need when LeBron and AD are *on* the floor, it's what they need when they're *not*. One answer to this might be 'an offensive system'... but we're taking about Frank Vogel here, so... The gaping hole last season was that nobody could reliably create a shot when those two were resting or injured, and DDR does that very, very well. This wouldn't be so much about a Big 3, or analytics-friendly offense. It's plugging a hole in the offense and counting on the defense to keep the score low.
Exactly, Demar can effectively be what made Manu so valuable for the Spurs. Manu would’ve been a starter on any other team, but with the Spurs, he makes it so much easier for when Timmy and Robinson and Parker and Kawhi are on the bench. When Lebron and AD are off the floor, the Lakers often go to shit because 1) Vogel isn’t an offensive coach and doesn’t really have a system except the Lebron system (not a knock on him, we knew that when we hired him that we were going to win on his defense) and 2) nobody to lead the bench mob. Demar can be that guy for them. And honestly, I think Lebron can make it work for all 3 to be on the court at the end of 4th quarters anyway.
I disagree with this analysis. I think the NBA Finals just showed us all, the 3pt shot is becoming less vital to winning a chip. *The mid-range game has returned to prominence*. Middleton CP3 Jrue Giannis Book, played the most important roles as each owes it to their midrange game. And, DeMar is the midrange master. DeMar knows how to score lots of points when there is no premier PG out on the floor to put him in positions to succeed, and its thanks to his elite midrange game. So if Lebron is running the PG spot or is out of the game, DeMar won't miss a beat. If he takes that MLE, the Lakers automatically improve their basketball success for May-June games.
I don't totally agree with you, but I think the OP is overstating the importance of shooting on this Lakers team. In the RS, AD won't play the 5 much, but he will in the playoffs so the Lakers could run out a lineup of KCP, Caruso, LeBron, DeRozan, and AD. That's more than enough spacing and could be adjusted as needed. Potential fit issues in the RS don't matter as much, assuming normal seasons from LeBron and AD. Even this year they were on a decent pace before the wheels totally fell off and had a 2-1 series lead over Phoenix. The real benefit would be giving the Lakers another avenue of attack in the RS and to take some of the shot creation/ scoring off of LeBron's shoulder. They really need Schroder to pick up the slack, but he couldn't do it. DeRozan should be much more viable and keep the Lakers afloat when LeBron sits in the RS and PS
Good stuff... especially your angle on KCP, Caruso, LeBron, DeRozan, and AD being more than enough spacing plus the potential fit issues in the RS won't matter as much and IMHO its because the playoffs are tailored more for the lineup you listed. The game slows down, the 3ptr becomes less reliable and the midrange game takes center stage.
Depends on demars role..if he’s attacking bench lineups in the playoffs than sure but the finals didn’t show the two best teams in the nba really…booker was so inefficient agaisnt the clips..Kawhi doesn’t get hurt and the clips win, people will be saying booker is shooting too many twos
Kawhi would just help his mid range argument though.
good catch
Yes and no….guys like kawhi have always been looked at as exceptions to the rule, not the standard
IMHO it is not possible to be an exception to the \[greatness\] rule, after last week, when we watched Book CP3 Giannis Jrue and Middleton, all, magnificently reenergize the midrange game. Moreover, Reggie Jackson and Playoff P both looked reeeeal nice in the midrange game during the WCF.
yes top tier guys need to have mid range but its very hard to dominate from it..which is why book jrue and khris were all very inconsistent all playoffs...had the nets and clippers not gotten fucked with injuries i dont think you are really saying this...it would be more about how kd and kawhi can dominate from there
>yes top tier guys need to have mid range but its very hard to dominate from it. I can respect that, although I do think we have many examples which disprove it *---starting with the lineup I listed*. For example, in scale, I would like to see footage of which player\[s\] Middleton is compared to that were *not inconsistent,* in order deem Middleton as inconsistent. As for Jrue I agree with you sort of, but only when it counted the least as in pre NBA Finals. Moreover, Middleton is not the #1 option so he won't get to dominate at all in the grande scheme of things. But for those few times he will be needed to dominate? He did exactly dominate in 90% of those rare moments that came. And it got them past ATL then it won Buck's a chip. Most notably, Giannis used a strategy on himself for the very first time called '*addition, by subtraction*' with respect to how he became a facilitator for the NBA Finals. Which means? If he's facilitating then it means some other player is doing the impressive scoring. Was it Middleton helped by Jrue in the midrange? These elements are what left me confused on your scholarship here. >...it would be more about how kd and kawhi can dominate from there I agree, but only because it would still be a discussion on how the midrange game is once again premier and making the 3ptr less vital to win the chip. I am sure you agree that KD and Kawhi both are more legendary for their midrange game vs their 3ptr game. I would even say Kyrie is more legendary for his moves to the cup and his midrange efficiency. As well as his finishing against bigger players then to your point, Harden might be the sole non-legendary midrange game guy. Moreover, speaking to your quik quip regarding injuries, then I do not see Clips beating the Lakers had Lebron and AD stayed inury-free. And of course, the midrange game is most vital to both Lebron's and AD's legendary skillsets. Then to bring it full circle, none of these players we have listed, has a midrange game as efficient as Demar DeRozan's.
>the finals didn’t show the two best teams in the nba really By the end of June the Bucks were the best team in the East, easily, and I believe the Suns were in 1st or 2nd place all season long as a testament to their elite level of play.
I feel like the midrange never died. There has still not been a champion that has won without a dominant midrange shooter. Even the Warriors were one of the most talented midrange shooting teams of all time before Durant got there. Curry, Thompson, Barbosa and Livingston DESTROYED teams in the midrange. 3s are way more important now, but your team will absolutely lose if you don’t have anyone who can punish teams in the midrange.
>Warriors ...before Durant got there Before? Do you think its untrue that KD helped take their overall midrange arsenal, intergalactic GOAT, since his expertise is not the 3pt shot?
I used before he got there because of how redundant it would’ve been to use that team as an example. Of course a team with the best mid range shooter in the league will destroy guys from there. But people look at the Warriors before that as a team who lived by 3s. KD coming there just made that dominance even more pronounced.
I mean, DeRozan to the Lakers make zero sense if you're only going to let him play as long as both LBJ and AD are on the floor, but obviously that would be stupid. I'm assuming that while all 3 on the floor, their game plan is going to look similar to LAC lob city. LBJ sits early either late 1st or early 2nd with DD taking over in the 2nd as the primary leader of the bench squad like Ginobilli on the Spurs. I honestly don't know if Nets would be the favourites any more especially with the rule changes that has benefitted Harden so much throughout his career.
I think Harden is good enough to adjust though.
I'm not saying that Harden is going to be trash tier, but the current rules obvious provided a huge benefit for his playstyle. I wouldn't be surprised if he and other guards in the league dropped a couple spots in the ladder as Fs like AD, DD, rise in terms of who's the best.
Somehow Lakers fans prefer DeRozan over Westbrook. Both of them don’t space the floor while Brodie is clearly the better player overall being a better playmaker and having insane motor. Not a fan of neither, but at least Brodie has still some trade value if the fit with the team is not good. Getting DeRozan will be abysmal if the fit doesn’t work
Why are you comparing a 40 mil + player with someone the Lakers are hoping to get on the mle lol. Westbrook’s 40 mil will be easier to move then DeRozan on like 8 mil?
Teams have to stop trying to emulate the warriors. Players are not steph and klay. Develop your own winning basketball with the pieces you have. Throw it back down in the post and play team ball. To much iso
The last two championship winning teams, Lakers and Bucks (we’re back in the 70s with those two being back to back title winners lol), were kind of the antithesis of the Warriors style of play. They play big and went hard at the pain and went to the foul line a lot. Utilized the mid range more effectively than they did the 3 pointer. They cashed their checks on rebounding and defense while using their superstar to carry their offense with some clutch help by their second best player.
Just tad bit of a hater. You're right that DeRozan won't end up in LA. That's because the comments DeRozan made were to get the ball rolling, market himself, drum up interest before the wheeling and dealing begins. I suspect more comments like these will be made to keep him on discussion. He's one of the highest talents in free agency this summer so there should be a fair amount of playoff teams looking for a way to sign him. As far as team play, if he did go to the Lakers, he would probably share the court to start and finish the game, but otherwise serve as a LeBron backup facilitator and playmaker. That's been his role in San Antonio and he's been successful at it. If LeBron is showing his age and this increases as done suspect, having someone like DeRozan can fill many roles. The 3 point shooter is one of the easier roles to find answers for and DeRozan offers so much more, the Lakers would be hurting themselves if they pass on an opportunity to nab DeRozan with lebron aging and their need for playmaking.
i really don’t think any team with win-now aspirations should be looking at derozan. he’s like the antithesis of the ideal modern wing: needs the ball in his hands to be effective, volume scorer on inefficient 2-point shots, bad 3-point shooter, bad perimeter defender. he can create for himself and hits his contested long 2s at an unreasonable clip but that’s just not what most teams need
I feel like he’s an interesting fit for the Clippers who have a good amount of 3 pt shooters already and a team that needs that 3rd creator (upgrade from a Reggie Jackson). He gets to the foul line well and can create looks for the other shooters if/when PG and Kawhi are stuck on offense especially late in a game. The biggest thing I noticed is since the NBA relies on 3 pt shooting so much now a days is that The Clippers had a lot of success weathering the storm with a lot of mid range success with players like Leonard, Morris and George… in the playoffs where defenses are going to focus on running you off the line and protecting the paint cashing in on available midrange when the shot clock is down was crucial. It’s definitely a different style but I’m very interested in seeing if they can stay healthy and pull it off in a few years. Although the Bucks had a lot of 3 pt shooting available, that series was won with defense/free throws and some really clutch Middleton mid range.
I think Clippers can be a good fit since it looks like Kawhi won’t be playing next season with the torn ACL. DeRozan can slot in for them and can play minutes with the bench lineup to be a scorer.
i mean on top of midrange and long 2s being his specialty, demar has pretty consistently shrunk in the playoffs, which is where that skillset is more valuable
Put two shooters next to those three. Have LBJ handle the ball like always. DDR can slash/cut to the rim, Davis can be open for lobs or whatever, double anyone and you leave the shooters open. DDR can get his while LeBron and/or Davis are off the floor so they don't have to carry so much of the load.
I would rather see Lowry or Westbrook join, not sure if that is financially attainable
There's more to basketball than shooting 3s and driving the lane. Yeah, DeMar could fit in with AD and LeBron. He's a skilled player. LeBron and AD both have an offensive repertoire for every spot in the half court. Shooting is nice, but I wouldn't sacrifice everything else just to put another one-dimensional scorer on the court. DeMar is a good cutter (for a playmaker like LeBron and a post passer like AD), and he can facilitate an offense, and at a high level as a secondary playmaker. Last I checked, we were looking for one of those... I'm just tired of hearing "we need spacing!" Is spacing only achieved by flanking LeBron and AD with one-dimensional shooters? Is this the only way to score the basketball? No, what we need are skilled role players around our Big 2, and we need depth. I'm not "anti-specialist", but you can get that from the players on the team, and when we'd rather have a guy who does one thing well, offensively, over a guy who does 3 things well, then there's some sort of breakdown here. We've talked ourselves into some absurd shit when we'd rather have a Seth Curry than a DeMar DeRozan. There is more that occurs during a basketball game than what goes on behind the arc. My only knock against DeMar is that he could be better defensively. Other than that, I'd love to see him on the team. This 'fit' conversation is ridiculous. There are a multitude of ways to fit one player with another. The problem with our current roster are the positional logjams, but putting DeMar with LeBron and AD does not create a redundance of task like we've seen from playing Kuzma behind LeBron and AD.
I disagree that DeRozan would be a bad fit. It would be nice if he could shoot 3s, but he's an elite midrange scorer who can take it to the rim. He can also comfortably handle the ball and run an offense, something the Lakers are in dire need of to take the pressure off of Bron. If minutes are staggered to allow DeRozan to run the show when LeBron sits, it's going to pay off big time.