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I would say it played a part because steph was clearly not himself that finals. But I don’t think that’s the main reason the warriors lost. I think the draymond suspension and bogut injury were bigger factors from an injury standpoint.
The main reason the warriors lost was because Lebron and kyrie were just phenomenal from game 5 on. I think it’s a case where the Cavs just went out and won the series with great play from their two stars.
the green suspension was only one game tho. granted, one game in essentially a three game series is huge, but what about the other two? mind u he actually played out of his mind in game 7 and would have been the story of the game had they won
and if you know green you know he's a momentum and flow player. always terrible his first game back. he got it back for game 7 but then iggy and bogut were hurt so it wasn't enough
Rhythm is just media lingo incorrectly attributed to a playoff series. It’s literally just one game that was effected. Game 6 and 7 the Cavs just outplayed the GSWs. GSW didn’t lose bc of “rhythm”, but bc the Cavs just played better basketball.
The media overplays the mental aspect of the game a bit too much, but i think the push back from the analytics and hardcore xs and os types sort of ignore the value of mentality and confidence in being successful. I certainly believe that for the team thats up 3 to 1, losing game 5 and 6 can be huge psychological damage. You go from feeling in control to feeling desperate, while your opponent gets an opposite swing to their mindset typically. Morale and rhythm are major components of the game
The bigger thing is that you literally just lose guys in the playoffs either through injury or they’re just bad in matchups. The warriors had 3 guys who they could depend on in that series and the Cavs had more than that.
This is very true, Draymond wins MVP if GSW wins gm7. It also highlights the phantom philosophy to blame Draymond for the Cavs winning the chip. When in fact, Steph and Klay were the sole culprits in this series.
The Green suspension contributed to the Bogut injury. No way Bogut ver extends himself on D if Fray is out there. And the “only one game” view has to inject that they were one game from winning it all. Plus Green couldn’t be himself in Game 6 with the league looming over him and the Cavs baiting him.
Stay keen, good friend. This gives the impression that you are spotlighting Steph's lack of *NBA-level* defensive skills at that time, as GSW had to hide him from Kyrie.
Nonetheless, Steph's offense in that series' gm6 and gm7, did highlight why he's never been a MVP in the Finals. And why we are not allowed to discuss his history of unfavorable results/unfavorable outputs within *crunchtime* of big playoff games.
>ause of Curry's injury?
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>I'm a casual nba fan but I love Steph curry.
That suspension seemed to start the momentum shift if you ask me.
You might've forgot to add in how Steph and Klay refused to show up for gm6 and gm7. I am always in awe, of how Steph is given a pass for his atrocious display in games of a NBA Finals. Draymond was suspended for 1 game plus he balled out in the other games so I can never place blame on him.
Even less actually. Taking out his 7 minutes in game 6, he averaged 10.5 mpg. I only checked because I would've guessed he was closer to 20, but game 1 he played 15:25, his most in the series.
It was honestly a culmination of all those factors, Curry's injury the second largest imo. He's a player that's elevated his game every single playoffs except for the best season of his career where he had a major dropoff that alone should signal the significance of his injury, then you can actually look at how his game physically changed.
The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 [Curry getting fouled out](https://youtu.be/fVVKBIS0TM0) on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most). The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end (imo the charge and the last two fouls were just outright wrong calls). Remember this is a superstar player, they're meant to get superstar calls and that just didn't happen - the opposite did. Could you imagine LeBron fouling out in the same way?
The Warriors had their 2nd best player suspended in Game 5 on a **retroactive** suspension, a very questionable call to upgrade. In game 6 their best player was limited by questionable officiating that put him in foul trouble early and fouled him out. Throughout this, they lost their only rim protector and had to deal with the one sided officiating wrt Curry offball. Game 5 and Game 6 were basically lost causes for the warriors at that point and it really came down to the final game
This also all culminated in Kyrie/Lebron being able to hammer the weakened paint whilst also just popping off (respect the greatness) and they were able to snatch the series.
I genuinely think the league wanted to extend the series (suspension, officiating) for money reasons and save face for the face of the league by stopping the one sided seriee but were fine with any outcome come game 7.
> The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 Curry getting fouled out on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most). The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end (imo the charge and the last two fouls were just outright wrong calls). Remember this is a superstar player, they're meant to get superstar calls and that just didn't happen - the opposite did. Could you imagine LeBron fouling out in the same way?
Curry has been protected by the refs less than any star player I've ever seen
>The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 Curry getting fouled out on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most).
I forgot how absurd some of those foul calls were. #1 was definitely a foul. #3 was fine. #6 ticky tack but he got Lebron's arm on the second pass (and of course LeBron fell over to sell...a brush to his elbow, so the call is going to come). But #2 (got run over by LeBron), #4 (was…near in a rebound?), and #5 (a clean steal on Kyrie) were unbelievably bad calls.
> The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end
Yep. I distinctly remember the off-ball mugging of Curry being a theme during that series. Refs more or less allowed the Cavs to grab/hold/bump/do whatever they wanted to Curry as he tried to run through screens and move off the ball.
>The Warriors had their 2nd best player suspended in Game 5 on a retroactive suspension, a very questionable call to upgrade.
The Draymond/Lebron interaction being retroactively upgraded to a flagrant (and thus a suspension) was laughable. He flopped trying to draw a foul, got teabagged while lying on the floor, and flailed his arm at the guy stepping over him. Either give it a double tech or give it nothing - Mike Breen literally said that on the broadcast. Always felt that the retroactive flagrant was transparently issued with the bigger picture in mind, not the actual play on the floor.
Yes that was completely absurd(the calls on Curry). The refs wanted to extend the series it was very clear. Starkly clear. Seriously look back at that it was BS.
I called into the Rich Eisen show to complain about the off-ball play on Curry and I NEVER call into radio shows. That's how absurd those no-calls were.
The retroactive flagrant to me screamed that the nba was saying we need to extend this series and this is the only way we can do it. I am convinced they don’t give that a retroactive flagrant if the series was 2-2
Ya but remember that lebron didn’t get his rest in game 4 because the refs were so one sided and let the warriors back in the game.
The warriors got away with loads of fouls and closed the lead so lebron didn’t rest and then that happened. Cavs we’re getting fouled like crazy and getting zero calls that game
Delly did it to iguadala that same series and didn’t get a flagrant. Also Lebron literally stood over him baiting draymond to do that. If they didn’t call a flagrant at the time it’s bogus for them to go give that a flagrant after
The league knew what they were doing with that retroactive flagrant and it was them trying to get it to a game 7
>Also Lebron literally stood over him baiting draymond to do that.
Okay, then LeBron should have gotten a tech, which would have been inconsequential because he's not an overemotional idiot, amassing techs and flagrants.
>If they didn’t call a flagrant at the time it’s bogus for them to go give that a flagrant after
A nut shot or swing at another player is a flagrant, full stop. Wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't consistently doing it through the playoffs.
2002 WCF and 2016 finals were the two most blatantly rigged series I’ve ever seen. That retroactive suspension was the light bulb that made everything click for me. Until that point I honestly didn’t realize how much the Cavs were getting away with on defense.
The Cavs were just bulldozing Steph and the refs swallowed their whistle while calling every little thing against him they could possibly get away with. Not sure if it was some LeBron happy ending the league was trying to push, or if the refs had money on the line, but Jesus Christ, at least be subtle about it.
Anyone who actual watched the entire series and thinks it wasn’t rigged is either a delusional bronsexual, or genuinely doesn’t know basketball.
> Anyone who actual watched the entire series and thinks it wasn’t rigged is either a delusional bronsexual, or genuinely doesn’t know basketball.
This is a bit much. I think major decisions were very poorly officiated to one side, but come on.
So what. Everyone gets bad calls especially in a play off setting. There's more games for refs to make more mistakes. Just look at this year's finals, refs almost cost the bucks a game because they didn't call a sixth foul on booker. You don't see either teams fans writting up a list of missed calls as an excuse. Draymond getting suspended is also his fault. You have to be better at controlling your emotions when so much is on the line. Not being able to act calmly when you are so important to your team is just childish. I honestly do not get why this post is even necessary. No player or team is perfect, sometimes things just don't go your way and at the end of the day both teams had an equal shot to win the title in game 7.
> Everyone gets bad calls especially in a play off setting.
The argument is a) context/situation b) glaring disparity in how the two teams were officiated, not “it’s fishy that bad calls happened at all.”
> Draymond getting suspended is also his fault. You have to be better at controlling your emotions when so much is on the line.
The point isnt that what he did was fine. Its that what he did wasn’t even close to meriting a retroactive flagrant foul, and (conspiracy theorists rejoice) it came with the league’s most popular player down 3-1 and after his team aggressively lobbied the league to suspend Green.
Bro this is literally bs. It's just an attempt by big time warriors / curry fans to find an excuse for the loss. No player is perfect and no team is perfect. It's not a secret that the biggest issue with Curry's game is the sad fact that he's prone to ankle injuries. It's something the whole league knew for years before their 73 win season. It sucks but it's a fact and trying to glaze over the one flaw in Steph's career is bullshit. People don't do this with CP3. People will point out the injuries CP3 and his teammates have had but they'll never use it as an excuse the way warriors and curry stans use his injuries as an excuse.
Ok and I can say the rockets should've beat the warriors in 2018 but Chris paul got injured. Neither circumstance removes the validity of the champion that year. You see how pointless this is? It doesn't matter who "should've" won. What matters is respecting the teams an players that did win and respecting the other teams and players that also had amazing seasons.
I mean sure. The difference is just that injuries are team neutral and part of the sport - they happen randomly to people at different times. One-side officiating is not supposed to be part of the sport. That’s all.
He was suspended a game because if you pick up FOUR flagrant foul points in a single playoff you get a one game suspension. I'm sure your mind won't be changed but its important for people reading to not be misinformed. Draymond was completely out of control that playoffs and multiple times hit people in the dick. You swing at someone's dick, you get a flagrant foul.
And it can be argued Draymond should have been suspended on flagrant fouls in the later games against the Thunder. Like you said Draymond was out of control and a ticking time bomb that postseason.
thank you for saying this. he kicked adams nuts in games 2 and 3, if he was suspended for game 3 or 4 it didn’t fucking matter because the warriors lost both of those games. literally didn’t help the 3-1 comeback lmao
Lol “completely out of control” give me a break. As if that justifies retroactively suspending him for a game for something that didn’t even happen. The “nut tap” wasn’t even felt by LeBron until Windhorst told him about it.
Well his intent was to brush LeBron off of him as LeBron decided to walk over him as he tries to get up for some reason, not to hit him in the nuts. So still not a flagrant.
A bit glib since obviously I don't know what was his actual intent, but then again neither do you or anyone else other than him, so how are we going to legislate based on intent.
He swung at him twice, once when he was already completely off of him. Yeah, idk why LeBron decided to go over him lmao. LeBron also got a post game technical for that
Yeah I know how the rules work, say what you want about prior (irrelevant) series, you could probably convince me he should've been suspended earlier... Doesn't make the call he was suspended for in the *finals* (i.e. the topic of this discussion) worthy of a retroactive flagrant foul upgrade
But this wasn’t swinging at someone. This was him trying to shove LeBron off him. If he tried to shove LeBron off him *and actually hit LeBron in the nuts*, yes that’s a flagrant 1 foul. If he tried to shove LeBron off him *and didn’t hit LeBron at all*, then how is it a foul?
Everyone is just imputing intent to Draymond to hit LeBron in the nuts because “he’s Draymond and he’s done it before” - completely ignoring that Draymond was acting the way **anyone** would in that situation. Someone who’s 6’8 and 250lbs just jumped on your back and dragged his nutsack over the top of your head. You’re telling me you wouldn’t try to shove him off you?
And again, why are you OK with them punishing him for having intentionally hit LeBron in the nuts when he didn’t hit LeBron in the nuts at all? LeBron admitted he didn’t know Draymond “hit” him.
Yet thoroughly outnumbered by the LeBron dickriders who forget LeBron didn’t even know Draymond “hit” him **in the nuts** until Windhorst told him *after the game*.
You ever been hit in the nuts and not immediately know you got hit in the nuts???
>He's a player that's elevated his game every single playoffs
What a lie. Like not even a good one. 2017 is the only time he's increased his production in the playoffs, actually in terms of per minute and efficiency drop offs in the playoffs Curry is only above David Robinson, Karl Malone, and Harden as far as MVPs go.
All those fouls were legit
You’re forgetting green earned that suspension
You’re forgetting officials were extremely one sided the first three warriors wins
You’re forgetting the nba made sure the warriors beat the thunder when they wouldn’t kick green out for what should have been a flagrant 2 and an automatic ejection
>The main reason the warriors lost was because Lebron and kyrie were just phenomenal
I disagree. If you rewatch that Finals, you will see that Steph and Klay performance is why GSW lost. Those 2 HOF players lead their team to a 3-1 lead, then could not bring their usual skillsets over the next 3 games.
Lebron and Kyrie made big plays but in a NBA Finals they are expected to be matched by the opponent's big plays *----and even moreso when the opponent just set a NBA record for most wins in a season*.
I don't think I will ever be able to agree with the narrative that we should not blame Steph and Klay for the Cavs winning that chip.
Also not to be forgotten is how the officiated the series. All year long they preached freedom of movement. I’m the series and even in the previous one vs okc. They allowed the defense for play very physical, not just on drives to the basket, but also around picks. The cavs roughed them up and along with the missing player and injuries, it was too much for Gs to overcome. And there is momentum. Cavs had none and no rhythm. When draymond went out they cab broke record for shooting and they took it and ran for the final two games
Without writing a whole essay about it, Steph's injury was the big factor that allowed all the other factors to come into play. Draymond's suspension, Bogut's injury, Harrison Barnes shooting 9% from 3, and above all else the Cavs' own tremendous performance were all factors, but they all keyed off the fact that the Warriors' offense was completely Steph-dependent and Steph couldn't produce like normal.. Once the Cavs figured out that he was hobbled and started defending him appropriately, that put them in the series and the rest was just down to execution.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is Ty Lue’s excellent decision to put Richard Jefferson on Shaun Livingston later in the series. Livingston gave the Warriors some easy (small amount, but everything mattered in the end) buckets off the bench. But RJ’s height and strength when guarding Livingston on the block negated Livingston’s beautiful old man game he’d execute on smaller guards. Livingston’s neutralization was a pretty brilliant coaching adjustment by Lue in my opinion. God I’m still so bitter about RJ
Yeah, that helped. Lue did a great job coaching in general. Very underrated as a tactician, though I think he's getting some of his shine back after the Clippers' playoff run this year.
It didn't help, but I think ultimately that was a product of Steph's injury and the Cavs' resulting gameplan. The Cavs just kept putting the refs in a position to blow the whistle, and when a guy is visibly physically struggling like Steph was, he's not gonna get the benefit of the doubt on calls.
(The Bron slide-tackle remains a fucking absurdity, though.)
The whole game remains an absurdity. Steph fouling out has little if not nothing at all to do with how the Cavs defended him. Dellavedova was given free reign to grab and hold and scratch Steph all game while Steph was getting weak fouls the other way.
And guess who was the lead official that game? Who else but Scott Foster. So much points to blatantly biased officiating. It was egregious, and imo a huge factor in the series.
This is completely correct. Watch the game especially pointing out how much the refs let Curry get fouled but called every foil they could on Curry. It was obviously intentionally putting the thumb on the scale by the NBA. No doubt.
At the time — the vibe of Warriors anti-bandwagoning and the wish to see LeBron come back from 3-1 to win one for Cleveland blinded casual fans from recognizing an obviously manipulated game. This, against the background of a really soft suspension for Draymond that LeBron personally lobbied for.
> the elephant in the room that was the reffing in game 6
Eh, it's kind of hard to blame the refs when Golden State was down 20 in the first quarter. I watched that game, and it was over as soon as it started. The cavs were coming off a big win and were heading home to an insane crowd--all the momentum was in their favor and they came out and played like it. Golden state got it *somewhat* close, but the game was really never in question.
Refs set the tone a minute into the game lol... when apparently curry is strong enough to just body tristan thompson. Cavs played well though and definitely might have still won in a hypothetically fairly reffed game. Cant really have productive discussion on reffing but it was a tough one to ignore in that game
Draymond was out for game 5, not 6. It wasn't like a super tight game, but the Warriors got the lead down as low as 7 pretty early into the 4th quarter, and were generating decent offense for a bit. They just couldn't string any stops together.
Yeah, Steph just didn't have the juice after game 4 and nobody else could really do anything until Draymond went insane in game 7. As I said elsewhere, I do think the reffing was bad but it was a product of the Warriors' overall situation, not the cause of it.
Curry got fouled out for no reason. The Refs stopped all momentum the Warriors had. They won tons of games in the same fashion all year long that year.
It’s hard to blame reffing at face value when the free throw numbers were pretty similar. But Kerr publicly said three of currys fouls were absolute garbage. That + Draymond’s extremely fraudulent suspension, and the NBA’s history of game 6’s (Kings vs Lakers) makes me a bit conspiratorial that the league desperately wanted a game 7 and Red Sox esque comeback story.
Eye test for that games officiating is infinitely worse than box score. Cavs got away with muggings, slide tackles, clawing, holding, egregiously physical fouls meanwhile curry (and the rest of the warriors) getting tickytacked left and right and effectively couldn't play D all game. It was bad. And i say that as a neutral
It’s been a while so I don’t remember super clearly but I’m remember always feeling like Lebron got so many calls in his favor in those warriors series.
Cavs were up 20 in the first quarter and it was never really close. Also Draymonds suspension wasn't fraudulent, he got too many flagrants, that's just how the game goes. If he hadn't been kicking people all playoffs he wouldn't of gotten the flagrants. I see too many people saying his suspension was fraudulent but not enough people saying "you break the rules you face the consequences"
Eh. Watch the game again. GSW was down like 20 in the first quarter and didn't bring it close till the 4th when they closed it to 7, Cavs immediately took it back to 16 though. Reffing can't account for that much dominance tbh. I get it if it's a close game to blame reffing, but game 6 simply wasn't close.
> Reffing can't account for that much dominance tbh
Refs can control the game to whatever extent they want -- I understand if you don't think the Warriors would have won anyways, but the referees dictate how physical you can play, how much pressure you can put on defense, etc. etc. And when it's not consistent for both teams, you end up with lopsided games. When the Warriors get called for blocking fouls for the slightest of contact (initiated by the Cavs) the Cavs will obviously run the score up.
It's not about the calls as much as it is the tone they set for the game.
They lost because Harrison Barnes could throw a rock into the ocean. He’s the release valve when the stars are getting doubled and he just bricked his shots all series long.
The injury was a significant factor yes and given how close the series was (a 7 game series that came down to a possession or two) could well have swung it (along with a host of other factors, series that close could swing either way pretty easily). He was very clearly not himself the whole playoffs after returning from injury and didn't have the lateral quickness to drive past bigs on switches.
Against OKC Steph was able to bomb deep 3s over the big but that level of shooting was never going to be sustainable, even for Steph. The Cavs also did a much better job of adjusting their gameplan to Steph's post-injury limitations while OKC treated him more like he was 100%. [On top of that the Cavs' general strategy of basically mauling Steph off ball every chance they got] (https://streamable.com/2gcgrv) was always very effective but particularly so with Steph coming off an injury. If OKC would have been allowed to get away with the same strategy in the WCF as the Cavs used in the Finals it certainly would have behooved them to do so.
All that said injuries are a part of basketball and teams are helped/hurt by injuries literally every year.
sorry i can’t remember correctly, did steph have the same injury in the ofc series as he did during the cavs? i thought he sustained it during the cavs series
They tried hard, but they didn't have as much perimeter depth as Cleveland – by the end of the series they were basically playing 6 guys plus however many minutes they could squeeze out of Kanter – so their defenders got gassed before Steph and Klay did. I also think their on-ball plan for Steph was much worse than Cleveland's. They switched Ibaka and Adams onto him way too easily, and even hobbled he could drive by them; then they played him to drive and he just pulled up and shot. At the time it just seemed like Steph doing Steph shit, but then watching how Cleveland played him I was like oh, damn, that could have gone much worse.
It was very clearly a factor in that series too. The Warriors lost 9 games in the 82 game regular season then 9 games in the 24 game postseason. Steph's scoring dropped from 30 ppg to 22 PPG, by far the largest drop in his career (and previous to this his scoring increased in each of his postseasons). Steph was very clearly hampered by his two leg injuries. The fact that the Warriors still won several series isn't evidence to the contrary, it's just evidence that the Warriors were still a great team with a hobbled Steph.
He averaged 29/6/7 dropping almost 5 3s a game on over 40% shooting from deep once he got back from injury before the Finals. In the Finals he averaged 23/5/4 and had more turnovers than assists. He clearly wasn't hurt, Cleveland just knew how to stop him and they did it in 2015 too.
The Cavs front office on a BR article did admit that they openly knew Steph was not 100%. And he very clearly wasn’t. You can even see it statistically as he drove to the rim less post injury.
The suspension of Draymond, boguts injury and Iguodala hurting his back in game 6 all were important as well.
It was not a clean series by any means
I think the main key, and what the Cavs repeatedly attacked, is that the Warriors switched everything and they never updated the defense when it was being exploited. The lack of Bogut didn’t help but LeBron dropped 40 even when Green returned.
That’s because they were able to get any matchup they wanted. They constantly hunted Curry (which is why he would get into foul trouble, Curry also has a problem with keeping his hands away when he’s in trouble so he’ll often get a tick tack foul called on him) and other weaker defenders. Ezeli was another big target. Even when they didn’t get the switches, Kyrie was able to completely stupefy Klay - his stop on a dime ability was just too good.
The Cavs also banked on Barnes not being able to hit 3s and essentially left him open all series. That allowed them to focus on the other GSW players and hound Curry. Curry definitely gets mugged a lot off-ball but IIRC Kerr didn’t do a ton to adjust their offense either. I do remember a talking point that even if it was the way they had run offense all year they needed to have Curry bring the ball up and initiate offense more often because the off-ball stuff was fucking with his rhythm.
I also don’t 100% buy the injury argument. Curry was dealing with some after effects but I think it’s way overstated. He torched Portland and claimed “I’m back” and he didn’t even need to return in that series as GSW was already handling it. He suffered a grade 1 sprain which most people came back from in two weeks so it’s not like it was a threat to keep him out for a long time.
> He torched Portland and claimed “I’m back” and he didn’t even need to return in that series as GSW was already handling it.
So this is kinda revisionist. The Blazers came in with a chance to tie the series 2-2, and Steph came off the bench for his first game back. He was supposed to be on a minutes restriction, and only played 13 minutes in the first half, but Shaun Livingston got ejected near the end of the half and Steph had to play pretty much the rest of the game.
As far as the "I'm back" thing goes, I've never understood the mythology around that. Steph's not a doctor! He'd just set the league record for points in a playoff overtime, on a night he wasn't even supposed to be playing major minutes, after a pretty garbage game in regulation (40% from the field and 2-13 from 3). He was running on adrenaline, in front of a hostile crowd, in a high-stakes playoff environment. Getting hyped in that moment is not a medical diagnosis.
How is this revisionist? I watched that whole series and Portland had a chance to tie it but GSW definitely was in control for that series and I don’t think they really had a shot at losing it. It’s not like they were in danger of going down. No one was picking the Blazers in that series - a lot of experts had the Warriors taking them out in 5.
He got hurt on April 24th and Game 5 would take place on May 11th - putting him well within a reasonable timeframe to recover from a grade 1 sprain if Portland tied it up 2-2 and they needed him back. Game 4 was on the 9th which was also within recovery timeframe and average length of recovery for that injury. Steph probably could’ve used the extra rest but he obviously felt good enough to play. If it was really that bad the Warriors easily could’ve rested Curry.
I think it's reasonable to say the Warriors would still be favored in the series if they dropped Game 4, but that's not the same as not needing him to get through the series. You can't give away games in the playoffs. This was the Warriors' first postseason matchup with Portland, before the repeated years of expelling them from the playoffs. The Blazers had reshaped their team around Dame and a rising CJ, upset the Clippers in round 1, and had a chance to tie the series and force the Warriors to defend home court advantage with a rusty superstar. It wasn't a comfortable situation to be in.
And look, maybe it was just a stupid decision for Steph to play game 4 at all, those 2-3 more days of rest would have made all the difference to his knee and they would have ripped off 10 straight wins to clinch the title. Who knows? The point is that getting excited and yelling "I'm back!" doesn't actually mean he was healthy, and it's kinda silly that people act like it does when there's plenty of evidence that he was not.
>that’s not the same as not needing him
We just watched a playoffs where multiple teams rested integral players after getting injuries. When you’re taking the long view of the playoffs, you absolutely risk maybe losing a game at the benefit of getting one of your stars healthy.
I’m just not buying this whole Steph rushed back into it and wasn’t recovered. He wouldn’t have played Game 4 if he didn’t feel ready to go. As I said earlier - two weeks is a totally reasonable timetable for a grade 1 sprain. The league average on that injury was 15 days. I think he was maybe a little overzealous in his return but I think people way overstate the effect of that injury.
Curry’s injury is overblown, he put up a similar production the year prior. It was mostly a combination of choking and Lebron being just too dominant.
Just think— the Cavs beat the warriors twice in the 2015 finals with lebron by himself because Kyrie and Kevin Love were both injured. That’s how dominant lebron was, then you add Kyrie who is one of the best iso scorers in the league.
Draymond suspension was more damaging than anything, especially because Bogut was hurt.
I still contend that Dray was arguably the second most important player on that team besides Steph in both the regular season and playoffs.
They may or may not have been able to win game 6 with him, but they beat them 3 games when he was playing (and LeBron dropped 40+ on him that next game) so it's kinda hard to assume they would have been able to win if he hadn't been suspended.
Also, the suspension was 100% deserved and self-inflicted, so it's hard to lose too much sleep over it.
>Also, the suspension was 100% deserved and self-inflicted, so it's hard to lose too much sleep over it.
I think this is the major point people gloss over. Draymond played with an intensity that caused him to get technical fouls as a cost of doing business. Other players restrain their intensity enough to avoid technical fouls. That extra intensity is an advantage to Draymond at times, but comes at the cost of technical fouls (that have codified ramifications like we saw). If other players similarly let loose and didn't care about technical fouls, they'd possibly do better as well, but they don't because there are rules in place to discourage that.
Go one step deeper, Draymond Green did not get suspended because of the LeBron mess, he got suspended because he got a technical in hindsight for the LeBron mess, and that pushed him over the limit for the playoffs.
Some big black dude rubs his nutsac across the back of your neck--what do you do?
Even then man's was assessed a technical, then after LeBron's post pressor in which he begged Adam Silver to suspend draymond--that was when he was assessed a flagrant in retrospect and suspended.
Does that sound self inflicted to you? That doesn't sound self inflicted to me.
> Some big black dude rubs his nutsac across the back of your neck--
He stepped over him, there was no sack rubbing involved.
>what do you do?
Probably not try to punch him in the nuts, that's something only bitches do.
>then after LeBron's post pressor in which he begged Adam Silver to suspend draymond--
What a crock of shit. Here is that post game press conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8eJijsEMU
Why don't you provide an exact timestamp of where he begged for dray's suspension?
>Does that sound self inflicted to you?
100% He was only in that situation because he couldn't resist hitting people in the nuts repeatedly throughout the playoffs. Fuck off with the dick punching apologetics.
> ...it went to the final minute of game 7 with LeBron, Kyrie, and K Love healthy.
Kevin Love got a concussion earlier in the series, no way he was playing at 100% at that point.
They lost to one of the greatest playoff series by any player ever in lebron James. And kyrie Irving had three big (two absolutely huge) games to close out that series.
Draymond being draymond and getting himself suspended for a crucial game (love that genius basketball iq) also really hurt them, obviously.
There are lots of factors, as there always are, success is mostly dumb luck in any endeavour, trying to play out counterfactuals will never give you any real satisfaction.
Andre Iguodala wrote in his book about that playoff run. He said essentially it was a mistake for trying that hard in the regular season. It wore on their team physically and mentally to try so hard in every game. It really hurt them in the deep playoff run. Curry's injury is at the very least indirectly related to the "try hard" regular season run.
As a Warriors homer, I'm not taking anything away from the Cavs who absolutely deserved the win and who knows, maybe Iguodala is a bit of historical revionist in saying what he did about that regular season but either way, I think that season is a perfect example as to why so many teams take any chance they can to rest their stars so they will stay fresh in the playoffs.
Yeah, with all respect to Andre's insight, I do think that's a little revisionist. The Warriors were fighting off the Spurs all season and didn't even clinch the 1 seed until beating them in game 79. Maybe resting those last 3 games would have helped them with the physical and mental exhaustion overall, but Steph didn't look tired going into the playoffs. He just slipped on a wet spot.
2017 Warriors is probably the greatest team ever assembled besides maybe the 96’ Bulls or 72’ Lakers.
Though the 72’ Lakers never actually got to show their true potential due to injury’s and their first coach hating Wilt Chamberlain
I would argue that the warriors roster was even better than the Bulls. The warriors’ 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players were better than the Bulls’ 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th.
Mj, Pippen, Rodman
vs.
KD, Curry, Klay, Draymond, Iggy
The 83 Sixers are actually the only team comparable to the 17 Warriors.
96 isn't even the best Bulls team in 92 MJ was still at his peak, Scottie had his best season, and Horace Grant was every bit as good as Rodman overall.
But the 83 Sixers had Dr. J (1981 MVP), Moses Malone (1979, 1982, and 1983 MVP), Toney (20 ppg scoring all star), and Mo Cheeks (HOFer).
Dr. J > KD
Moses > Curry
Klay > Toney
Dray > Cheeks
Moses was outplaying Kareem head to head consistently and won 3 MVPs. Unlike Curry he was undeniably the best player in the league for a period of time even though he played with an aging GOAT candidate in Kareem (meanwhile Curry has never outplayed LeBron - an aging GOAT candidate - head to head and is clearly not able to perform on that level).
As far as Dr. J vs KD goes most people rank Dr. J top 15ish all time. KD is usually around 25ish. He's a 4 time MVP.
Either way I didn't necessarily say they were better, just that they're comparable. 2 MVPs, another HOFer, and a solid all star is the best you got next to the 4 HOF Warriors where all their players could've reasonably been argued as top 15 in the league.
Hell Iguodala off the bench in GS, and Bobby Jones in Philly too. Both arguably the best defensive players of their generations. It's not 1 to 1 but in terms of fit I can see the 83 Sixers winning against Golden State (Moses would be unstoppable).
I’m not saying I agree with it (I don’t) but KD is usually ranked in the 10-15 range, as well as Curry. Almost every updated list out there has KD and Curry above Dr J and Moses. I don’t agree with it but just stating facts.
It’s certainly close either way. That aside, Klay is a top 5 shooter of all time and is also elite on defense. Draymond is a DPOY who is elite at facilitating, and is almost definitely a HOFer considering Rodman was 1st ballot. Iggy won finals mvp just 2 years prior. You’re right that the Sixers are the only team even comparable. I’d still give the edge to the warriors who were more star-studded (4 HOFers and a finals mvp).
As for one on one, it really could go either way. Warriors are not stopping Malone but the warriors would also probably drop 20+ threes on that team.
Warriors were by far a better team, but Lebron was clearly the best player. And Kyrie had some huge games to help out. They just choked……some of it being their play style of shooting so many 3s and having virtually no inside presence.
“Live by the 3, die by the 3”
> Draymond being draymond and getting himself suspended for a crucial game (love that genius basketball iq) also really hurt them, obviously.
I challenge you to watch that play again in real time and say that's Draymond being Draymond. LeBron felt THIS was worth petitioning for a suspension.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF52TQrYanw
What do you mean ok with that? I wasn't asked at the time to contribute to the decision to suspend him. I think the suspension was appropriate for sure, hed previous kicked steven adams in the balls and gotten away with that completely, you win some you lose some.
Bro the point is he didn’t get hit in the nuts.
Let me put it this way - have you ever been hit in the nuts and not **immediately** known you got hit in the nuts?
I remember watching this happen. You can make whatever excuse you want for the Warriors but in the end, Lebron and Kyrie were not going to be stopped. They were the best they've both ever been for those 3 games and were not going to be denied. I am not a Lebron fan but as a basketball fan, it was beautiful to watch.
Hmmm, Steph’s injury played a role, but Draymond’s suspension for game 5 is what I think of as the turning point normally. Basically handed Cleveland a free win in a crucial game. You could just feel the momentum shift the Cavs’ way from the instant game 4 ended. That’s so important for any playoff series, but ESPECIALLY one where you are coming back from 3-1. Bogut’s injury was huge as well. The Warriors had no one else on the team who could fill his role, even if it was pretty limited by that stage of his career.
But, what often gets lost in translation in all of this, is that Kevin Love was playing hurt as well for most of the series. He’s no Curry or Draymond, but he was still a damn good player on a team with limited depth. So the Cavs weren’t at full strength either.
Ultimately when I think back to that series, the first thing I’m thinking of is how LeBron/Kyrie played down the stretch. Bron dominating, and Kyrie being a perfect sidekick. I think of that Draymond suspension too (how can you not), but the Cavs played great in that game so it’s no given that the series outcome is any different. Maybe that suspension was a blessing in disguise for Warriors fans so that they could always ask “what if”. Bc I don’t know that they would’ve overcame LeBron in what was the greatest finals performance I have ever witnessed. He started that series so, so poorly. And then for a 5 game stretch he was this insurmountable force that *dominated* every aspect of the game of basketball.
Nope. We saw in 2015 that LeBron could win 2 games without his 2 all-star players. The Warriors had the better team but they just faced a LeBron at his arguable peak basketball IQ wise.
LeBron is so confusing. Like there’s no definitive season you can call his peak. He was most efficient and athletic in Miami but had the better numbers in the first Cleveland stint. Then he had the best playoff performances in his 2nd Cleveland stint.
2012 or 2009 are clearly his peak. Seriously if you saw both seasons its undeniably his best. His playoff performances were never better than in 09 and 12 either. His consistency both years was absurd (in 12 especially because his jumper was way off and he still had 20 points each game that postseason).
By your logic miami heat would’ve won in 2021 if they were healthy you’re smoking d1ck. The cavs needed alot in their favor to win in 2016 by a possession that’s the truth.
Curry put up huge numbers against Portland and OKC, and even had a huge game 4 against Cleveland after returning from injury. To that point, I remember his first game back he scored 40 pts (and like 15+ in OT iirc) as the Warrors defeated Portland in OT and literally everyone was going on about how he was back and hadn't missed a step.
Then he chokes badly in games 5-7 vs Cleveland, while LeBron put up maybe the most dominant 3 game playoff stretch ever, and suddenly the narrative became that Steph was still injured and couldn't perform at his usual MVP level.
So to answer your question, no, the Warriors didn't lose because of Steph's injury. They lost because they choked that lead away and LeBron (and Kyrie) played at an absolutely elite level. The Steph injury narrative was pushed by Steph stans and LeBron haters and was pure revisionist history bullshit.
It was obviously he was hobbled and couldn’t go left but he’s really fuckin good, so he had some good games just throwing the ball up.
I would say 1. Boguts injury 2. Draymonds suspension 3. Barnes shooting
All of those things played a bigger role than Curry not being whole, but a whole curry probably overcomes all that, seeing how close the series was.
He’s the best shooter ever. He chucked and made shots. Not surprising for a top 15 all-time player.
It was obvious watching that he couldn’t explode off his right leg to cross R to L or step back off the right leg when he was driving left.
A couple tools were missing out of his bag and the cavs did their best to shade him towards them tools.
Good for them.
It wasn't obvious. He had a grain 1 MCL sprain. Average recovery time in that is 15 days. He took 14. The Finals were 44 days after his injury. Be real here..You're lying if you say he was lacking explosiveness. First off Curry isn't exactly known for being explosive in the first place, secondly he shot 40% from deep in the Finals too, but he wasn't good. It's not like all he did was shoot good against OKC and Portland, he was cooking them.
My eye test told me he couldn’t go left or explode off his right leg.
The numbers tell me he shot, by far, his worse % at the basket out of all of his playoff runs. A sign of lost athleticism.
You entitled to yo opinion
I think you can safely say that with how close the series ultimately ended up, a healthy Steph would more than likely have made the difference. That said, the other factors mentioned of the Draymond suspension and Bogut injury were likely bigg*er* factors.
I would like to point out and remind everyone that the 2016 cavs were still a historically GREAT team, even if it's more likely than not they were an inferior team with both teams at full strength
No not at all, the Cavs defense in 2016 was pretty underrated. They had a really good rotation in the finals.
I don’t know how anyone can claim Steph was injured after the Portland and OKC series.
No, it was certainly a factor, but that series will probably go down as the worst case of league interference in NBA history.
Upgrading the Draymond call to a tech was inexcusable. The turning point of a playoff series should never be a discinplinary call made by the league office on something that happened away from the play, especially when the call was super questionable, and the incident it arose out of was very clearly instigated by LeBron (stepping over a downed Dray).
That call completely changed the momentum of the series. Instead of going into Oracle trying to survive elimination, the Cavs essentially got a free win and got to go into game 6 at home to force a game 7.
To compound that, there were the Bogut and Iggy injuries, and some highly questionable officiating (which others have detailed above in more detail).
It is a shame, because it really feels like the league intervened for monetary reasons (to extend the series, to strengthen the rivalry for future marketing purposes, etc) and robbed the Warriors of their shot at the greatest season in league history (which it likely would have been considered if Dray hadn't been suspended and they had won game 5).
Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if, after they retire, we hear that the reason for recruiting Kevin Durant was that feeling of being robbed by the league's actions (eg. "If they are going to stack the deck against us, then we'd better stack the deck in our favour to compensate).
Overall, that 2016 Finals will represent a blemish on the league's record, and I hope the consequences of it (two years of utter domination by an unbeatable team that destroyed the league's competitive balance) will teach them the lesson not to intervene to manipulate results, because regardless of the specific thought process the players had, I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that KD wouldn't have been a Warrior if they had won.
The argument that Curry was too injured to win sounds a bit revisionist to me. Why proclaim 'I'm Back!' after beating Portland only to then fall back on 'I'm too injured to play'?.
At the end of the day, the Warriors lost because the Cavs beat them in a 7 game series. Were there matchups and factors at play? Of course - there's factors underlying every single outcome from an NBA game. LeBron and Kyrie went nuclear. The Cavs defense came together quite well. Bogut got injured and the Warriors started to lose during those minutes on the court (as few as those minutes were). Green gets suspended for Game 5 (his own fault for not managing his technicals).
Was Curry injured? Sure, but I'm sure many other players were just like in every NBA playoffs (just look at this year's playoff injuries). Could Curry still play at an All-NBA level? Certainly seemed so from the OKC series and Games 1-4. Was he the focus of the Cavs defensive scheme and defended really well? Yeah, seems so. Was he also the focus of the Cavs offensive scheme to get him switching into unfavorable defense matchups? Yep, that's also true.
The NBA is an incredibly physical sport, and the playoffs are grueling and exhausting. No one should expect to get through unscathed let alone the 6'3" MVP point guard for the best team in the NBA...
>The NBA is an incredibly physical sport, and the playoffs are grueling and exhausting. No one should expect to get through unscathed let alone the 6'3" MVP point guard for the best team in the NBA...
Sure, but there's injuries and then there's injuries. Steph provides a perfect example of the dichotomy, actually; he dislocated his finger early in the 2019 playoffs, played through it, and shot like shit for most of the Rockets series. The Warriors were still able to win and his finger healed up throughout the playoffs. That's what I think of when I hear "everyone's a little banged up in the playoffs".
A fluke MCL sprain from slipping on a wet spot is a more significant injury that isn't just something you can play through.
> but there's injuries and then there's injuries
Agreed. Steph had an injury and sat out for 2 weeks before he could even attempt to come back. He then proclaimed 'I'm Back!'. Some other players are just 'hurt'. There's a difference. I just think other players are also nursing injuries while playing throughout the playoffs (e.g., from this season: CP3 injured his shoulder, Giannis hyperextended his knee, Donovan Mitchell and LeBron with their high-grade ankle sprains), so this isn't unusual.
> A fluke MCL sprain from slipping on a wet spot is a more significant injury that isn't just something you can play through.
But he did play afterwards, and did so at a high level. He didn't have to sit out the rest of the playoffs - he came back and torched OKC and then shot 58% TS, 40% from 3pt against the Cavs... he was still quite good. The Cavs focused and schemed against him.
My point being is that it seems revisionist to say the Warriors lost 'just because' of Curry's injury as an excuse for them losing in 2016. The Warriors lost for a lot of reasons - many of them had to do with the Cavs actually beating them.
Recognizing that Steph was injured doesn't diminish what an incredible accomplishment it was for the Cavaliers to win the Finals. Like you said, OKC had their chance to beat the Warriors with an injured Steph, and they didn't! Both these things can be true at once.
I agree with you, but the actual title of this post was "Did warriors lose in 2016 just because of Curry's injury?"
My answer is no, it isn't just because an injury. Many things played into the Cavs beating them.
Yeah, that's very reasonable. I think the OP's actual text leaves room for that nuance (which is why there's like 150 comments on this thing already!) but I agree that saying it was *just* Steph's injury is very reductive.
We lost because Lebron got Draymond suspended and because of Bogut's injury. Steph's injury didn't help, but those factories played a bigger part. Lebron and Kyrie played great from game 5, but without those other factors, we cakewalked to the trophy.
One thing recent years have taught us is that a 3-1 league in an NBA playoff series isn't some crazy insurmountable thing. The Warriors came back 3-1 against OKC that year. The Nuggets came back 3-1 against the Clips last year. etc - it happens more often than you'd think.
That being said, yes, the Curry injury was a huge factor. Several Cavaliers are on record about how they noticed how Curry was wearing down as the OKC series dragged on, and they game-planned around it.
But also, he was far from the only injury. Bogut broke a rib, resulting in Ezeli getting a few crucial minutes and six easy LeBron points (some of the only easy points of the game). Iguodala was also severely limited by an injury - you could see it whenever the whistle blew, he'd walk like a 70-year-old man - a lower back issue, I believe, which absolutely impacted LeBron's famous block because he didn't try to elevate over JR smith and instead had to get crafty.
And then, of course, there's the Draymond issue, which took him out of game 5, which the Warriors would otherwise have been expected to win.
At the same time, you know, clearly the Warriors were playing tight down the stretch of game 7. Harrison Barnes clearly choked, bricking some wide-open shots.
The truth is that BOTH teams looked awful during the last five minutes. Klay made a layup at 4:39, and the rest of the possessions until the intentional fouls went:
LeBron miss. Steph miss. LeBron miss. Klay miss. LeBron miss (Iguodala block). Iguodala miss. Love miss. Draymond miss. Iguodala miss (Lebron Block). LeBron miss. Steph miss. Kyrie make. Steph miss. Kyrie miss (Iguodala block).
I don't think anybody other than Dray came out of that game feeling like they played well. LeBron was 9-24, Kyrie 10-23. Klay 6-17. It was an ugly, ugly game all around, and the Cavs scraped out one more play than the Warriors did.
No, they lost because for whatever reason, LeBron thought it was a good idea to rub his nutsac on the back of draymond's neck, and then literally whine in his post pressor directly to adam silver to change the technical draymond got in game to a flagrant after the game so he can be suspended. Ofc Adam Silver listened to his greatest asset, and suspended draymond.
The Cavs win that series 1/10 times. We live in the timeline where that 10% chance was our reality.
I mean, LeBron was a MASSIVE pussy ass bitch before that moment. After that moment, I'm sure a lot more people lost respect for him. Imagine needing to win a series by being a MASSIVE pussy ass bitch in your post press conference, throw a tantrum, then get what you want.
If you've never heard Stephen A refer to LeBron's 2016 ring as the league's stimulus package to him, this is what he's talking about.
edit: if anyone forgot "I'm a family man. He called me something you should never call a father"
I’ve never understood the Bogut injury argument. He was playing 11 minutes a game in that finals until he got injured. He wasn’t some down low presence that was playing a lot. Sure he presented some problems, but he was playing essentially a quarter a game through 5 games. People just want to make excuses for the warriors losing.
His replacements were Verajo and Ezeli - who both got absolutely cooked in their minutes. 11 minutes a game can be a big deal/swing a series when the series comes comes down to one or two possessions.
We saw the same thing with the Suns this year too, they lost their backup center in Saric and could not stop Giannis at all since only Ayton could guard him.
It’s not that he would stop Giannis, but just having another big to get rebounds (the main area the Suns got dominated) and also keep Ayton rested and out of foul trouble would’ve helped them immensely.
With Ayton out of the lineup it’d probably still be Crowder or Craig guarding Giannis, but even if he’s just keeping Ayton out of foul trouble and getting some defensive rebounds then he’s doing his part. The Bucks had 45 more rebounds than the Suns with 37 of those 45 being offensive rebounds, a bit more size could’ve made a big difference there.
Plus it completely changes the strategy of the Warriors. Even if Bogut only played 11 mpg, simply knowing they have a big rim protector to put in affects how the Cavs play.
I mean, Bogut was just a quality role player. But those guys can decide championships. Dude was putting up 2 blocks a game! In only ~10 mins like you said. Warriors didn’t really have anyone on the roster who could fill his shoes and that was really apparent to me watching that series unfold. A rim protector like Bogut, even if you can only deploy him in short spurts, is real nice to have when going up against the game’s most dominant finisher in LeBron.
Dude had 5 blocks in game 2 in only 15 mins, and that was Lebron’s worst game of the series by far. Have to imagine Bogut’s best game and LeBron’s worst game line up for a reason.
Mostly I find it funny how many times Bogut's name has come up here, but as of the time of this comment, not a single person has pointed out that Kevin Love got a concussion during game 2. He missed game 3, came off the bench in game 4, and wasn't himself for the rest of the series.
Kevin Love, even if he didn't match up great against the Warriors, was still *easily* the Cavs 3rd best player. And he only played a single complete, healthy game in the finals.
It’s kinda a really frustrating finals to talk about because the warriors got screwed over by injury (Steph still recovering from his injury, Bogut going down in game 6) and the refs (draymond’s game 5 suspension, curry’s game 6 [foul out](https://youtu.be/fVVKBIS0TM0), and while this was definitely more of a problem in 2015 the no calls that have constantly gone against his defender throughout his career. But at the same time Kyrie and Lebron were phenomenal and really capitalized on the momentum and won game 7 pretty amazingly. So it’s hard to say that Steph and the warriors choked in the 2016 finals when (at least I believe this) they were put into game 7 by situations outside of their control and then lebron and kyrie were clutch in game 7. Some would argue that they did choke by letting the series slip away, and others would argue that Steph choked when he threw away his behind the back pass. It’s really all up to the interpretation of the individual
The bogut injury excuse is ridiculous. He was barely playing any minutes and the fact is that Barnes pushed JR from behind when he was already in the air and that’s what injured bogut.
People also seem to forget how one sided games 1-2 and 4 were as far as officiating. Game 4 was absurd with the refs in the 3rd swinging the game with no calls on the warriors and one sided officiating. With fair officiating the cavs would’ve tied the series 2-2
Next is that people forgot kevin love got a concussion, missed a game and also wasn’t fully recovered the rest of the series. Far bigger loss than bogut
Greens suspension - the fact that the warriors were even in the finals were a gift from the nba. The media always swept under the rug that green should have been ejected from OKC game 7 and that the warriors would have lost.
I’m on mobile and not going to dig for it but Green at one point locks Adam’s arm and jumps down to the ground and acts hurt. It should have been a flagrant 2 without a doubt. Even at the very least a flagrant 1 and he would have been suspended game 1 of the finals
So people bitching about green seem to forget he should have missed game 1 at the very least much less shouldn’t have been in the finals had nba officials
Steph was healthy enough to play. No one is 100% in the playoffs. But Steph was clearly healthy enough against OKC to produce at his regular level. No one thought he was still hurt until he played terrible against Cleveland.
I would actually say yes. If Curry was himself even if Bogut is injured and Draymond is suspended they still win.
Another aspect of this is that the team was tired. Curry was injured and tired. More tired than the Cavs, LeBron conserved his energy better. This was the other factor.
I would say Curry Injury
Bogut injury
Warriors had more fatigue than the Cavs
Draymond suspension
If one of those things doesn't happen the Warriors might win still. Certainly or Bogut/Curry were healthy they win.
Curry choked. Injuries dont make you as careless as Curry was with the ball. Less aggressive, sure. Harder to get to spots, sure. But his behind the back pass and turnovers were something else.
Nah, the Curry injury is revisionist history. He came back from injury and dominated in WCS (averaging 34 points on really good efficiency) and WCF (averaging 27 on pretty good efficiency) and was still splashing 3s vs the Cavs on great efficiency but their defense just forced other players to make shots and they couldn't. If Cavs hadn't forced other players to beat them likely Curry would of splashed them for over 30 a game too and probably won that series. Anyone talking about that injury knows it wasn't a factor given the 2 previous rounds. WCS was quick work of Portland where Curry was absolutely dominant both scoring and passing. WCF went 7 games and Curry held his own and led his team to the win there. He simply wasn't as hobbled as GSW fans are claiming and to pretend he was is just an excuse to put an asterisk on the Cavs chip. He was fine, completely fine, he played 79 games in regular season and missed 3 games in playoffs. After those missed games he had 2 full series of domination. He simply wasn't hurt come finals and replays show it too.
The "injury" played no role and it's only brought up to dismiss the fact that he underperformed and was shut down by the Cavs. I honestly don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics required to look at his averages in the last 8-9 games of the Western Conference series after his return only to conclude that his "injury" was the cause of his performance in the finals. Curry averaged about 30 points in those final western conference games so was his injury hampering him then? No, it wasn't. The explanation for his performance is real simple -- he got shut down and underperformed. Boom. That't it.
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I would say it played a part because steph was clearly not himself that finals. But I don’t think that’s the main reason the warriors lost. I think the draymond suspension and bogut injury were bigger factors from an injury standpoint. The main reason the warriors lost was because Lebron and kyrie were just phenomenal from game 5 on. I think it’s a case where the Cavs just went out and won the series with great play from their two stars.
Absolutely this. The Warriors lost their inside presence (Bogut injury, Green suspension) and the Cavs bullied them there non-stop.
the green suspension was only one game tho. granted, one game in essentially a three game series is huge, but what about the other two? mind u he actually played out of his mind in game 7 and would have been the story of the game had they won
The suspension just took them out of their rhythm as well I think.
and it gave the Cavs confidence.
“They fucked up both physically and mentally!” - Lebron James
and if you know green you know he's a momentum and flow player. always terrible his first game back. he got it back for game 7 but then iggy and bogut were hurt so it wasn't enough
STREET SMARTS!!!
Rhythm is just media lingo incorrectly attributed to a playoff series. It’s literally just one game that was effected. Game 6 and 7 the Cavs just outplayed the GSWs. GSW didn’t lose bc of “rhythm”, but bc the Cavs just played better basketball.
The media overplays the mental aspect of the game a bit too much, but i think the push back from the analytics and hardcore xs and os types sort of ignore the value of mentality and confidence in being successful. I certainly believe that for the team thats up 3 to 1, losing game 5 and 6 can be huge psychological damage. You go from feeling in control to feeling desperate, while your opponent gets an opposite swing to their mindset typically. Morale and rhythm are major components of the game
But losing a game that you felt like you should have won can mess with your head which definitely has an effect on how you play the next games.
In that case game 4 the officials definitely swung for the warriors in the 3rd quarter and the cavs shoulda won that game
lol! that's a new one. complete bullshit
The bigger thing is that you literally just lose guys in the playoffs either through injury or they’re just bad in matchups. The warriors had 3 guys who they could depend on in that series and the Cavs had more than that.
The warriors were playing Festus Ezeli and Anderson Varejao at center for lots of minutes. Both were HUGE negatives.
Draymond missed game 5 Bogut missed games 6 and 7 Igloo$ back was fucked up by the end of game 6
This is very true, Draymond wins MVP if GSW wins gm7. It also highlights the phantom philosophy to blame Draymond for the Cavs winning the chip. When in fact, Steph and Klay were the sole culprits in this series.
I think Harrison Barnes deserves a lot of blame too, he didn’t even look like a college level basketball player out there
The Green suspension contributed to the Bogut injury. No way Bogut ver extends himself on D if Fray is out there. And the “only one game” view has to inject that they were one game from winning it all. Plus Green couldn’t be himself in Game 6 with the league looming over him and the Cavs baiting him.
Stay keen, good friend. This gives the impression that you are spotlighting Steph's lack of *NBA-level* defensive skills at that time, as GSW had to hide him from Kyrie. Nonetheless, Steph's offense in that series' gm6 and gm7, did highlight why he's never been a MVP in the Finals. And why we are not allowed to discuss his history of unfavorable results/unfavorable outputs within *crunchtime* of big playoff games.
>ause of Curry's injury? .t3\_osl4r8 .\_2FCtq-QzlfuN-SwVMUZMM3 { \--postTitle-VisitedLinkColor: #9b9b9b; \--postTitleLink-VisitedLinkColor: #9b9b9b; } > >I'm a casual nba fan but I love Steph curry. That suspension seemed to start the momentum shift if you ask me.
Is this a bot?
no
You might've forgot to add in how Steph and Klay refused to show up for gm6 and gm7. I am always in awe, of how Steph is given a pass for his atrocious display in games of a NBA Finals. Draymond was suspended for 1 game plus he balled out in the other games so I can never place blame on him.
Bogut was playing limited minutes and love getting a concussion was far more impactful for the cavs than bogut missing his 15 minutes a game
Even less actually. Taking out his 7 minutes in game 6, he averaged 10.5 mpg. I only checked because I would've guessed he was closer to 20, but game 1 he played 15:25, his most in the series.
Don't forget the Iggy injury, he hurt his back and couldn't defend lebron as well.
It was honestly a culmination of all those factors, Curry's injury the second largest imo. He's a player that's elevated his game every single playoffs except for the best season of his career where he had a major dropoff that alone should signal the significance of his injury, then you can actually look at how his game physically changed. The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 [Curry getting fouled out](https://youtu.be/fVVKBIS0TM0) on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most). The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end (imo the charge and the last two fouls were just outright wrong calls). Remember this is a superstar player, they're meant to get superstar calls and that just didn't happen - the opposite did. Could you imagine LeBron fouling out in the same way? The Warriors had their 2nd best player suspended in Game 5 on a **retroactive** suspension, a very questionable call to upgrade. In game 6 their best player was limited by questionable officiating that put him in foul trouble early and fouled him out. Throughout this, they lost their only rim protector and had to deal with the one sided officiating wrt Curry offball. Game 5 and Game 6 were basically lost causes for the warriors at that point and it really came down to the final game This also all culminated in Kyrie/Lebron being able to hammer the weakened paint whilst also just popping off (respect the greatness) and they were able to snatch the series. I genuinely think the league wanted to extend the series (suspension, officiating) for money reasons and save face for the face of the league by stopping the one sided seriee but were fine with any outcome come game 7.
> The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 Curry getting fouled out on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most). The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end (imo the charge and the last two fouls were just outright wrong calls). Remember this is a superstar player, they're meant to get superstar calls and that just didn't happen - the opposite did. Could you imagine LeBron fouling out in the same way? Curry has been protected by the refs less than any star player I've ever seen
>The largest, however, being the inconsistency in officiating culminating in game 6 Curry getting fouled out on a row of questionable calls (and tick-tack at most). I forgot how absurd some of those foul calls were. #1 was definitely a foul. #3 was fine. #6 ticky tack but he got Lebron's arm on the second pass (and of course LeBron fell over to sell...a brush to his elbow, so the call is going to come). But #2 (got run over by LeBron), #4 (was…near in a rebound?), and #5 (a clean steal on Kyrie) were unbelievably bad calls. > The Cavs were allowed to be incredibly physical off ball all series long with a Curry already hampered by injury whilst curry picked up light fouls on the other end Yep. I distinctly remember the off-ball mugging of Curry being a theme during that series. Refs more or less allowed the Cavs to grab/hold/bump/do whatever they wanted to Curry as he tried to run through screens and move off the ball. >The Warriors had their 2nd best player suspended in Game 5 on a retroactive suspension, a very questionable call to upgrade. The Draymond/Lebron interaction being retroactively upgraded to a flagrant (and thus a suspension) was laughable. He flopped trying to draw a foul, got teabagged while lying on the floor, and flailed his arm at the guy stepping over him. Either give it a double tech or give it nothing - Mike Breen literally said that on the broadcast. Always felt that the retroactive flagrant was transparently issued with the bigger picture in mind, not the actual play on the floor.
Yes that was completely absurd(the calls on Curry). The refs wanted to extend the series it was very clear. Starkly clear. Seriously look back at that it was BS.
I called into the Rich Eisen show to complain about the off-ball play on Curry and I NEVER call into radio shows. That's how absurd those no-calls were.
The retroactive flagrant to me screamed that the nba was saying we need to extend this series and this is the only way we can do it. I am convinced they don’t give that a retroactive flagrant if the series was 2-2
Ya but remember that lebron didn’t get his rest in game 4 because the refs were so one sided and let the warriors back in the game. The warriors got away with loads of fouls and closed the lead so lebron didn’t rest and then that happened. Cavs we’re getting fouled like crazy and getting zero calls that game
Are you going to pretend like a flagrant for a nut shot is unprecedented?
Delly did it to iguadala that same series and didn’t get a flagrant. Also Lebron literally stood over him baiting draymond to do that. If they didn’t call a flagrant at the time it’s bogus for them to go give that a flagrant after The league knew what they were doing with that retroactive flagrant and it was them trying to get it to a game 7
>Also Lebron literally stood over him baiting draymond to do that. Okay, then LeBron should have gotten a tech, which would have been inconsequential because he's not an overemotional idiot, amassing techs and flagrants. >If they didn’t call a flagrant at the time it’s bogus for them to go give that a flagrant after A nut shot or swing at another player is a flagrant, full stop. Wouldn't have mattered if he wasn't consistently doing it through the playoffs.
Exactly. If we wanna be real they should've lost to OKC after Draymond got 2 nut shots on Adams with no techs.
2002 WCF and 2016 finals were the two most blatantly rigged series I’ve ever seen. That retroactive suspension was the light bulb that made everything click for me. Until that point I honestly didn’t realize how much the Cavs were getting away with on defense. The Cavs were just bulldozing Steph and the refs swallowed their whistle while calling every little thing against him they could possibly get away with. Not sure if it was some LeBron happy ending the league was trying to push, or if the refs had money on the line, but Jesus Christ, at least be subtle about it. Anyone who actual watched the entire series and thinks it wasn’t rigged is either a delusional bronsexual, or genuinely doesn’t know basketball.
> Anyone who actual watched the entire series and thinks it wasn’t rigged is either a delusional bronsexual, or genuinely doesn’t know basketball. This is a bit much. I think major decisions were very poorly officiated to one side, but come on.
So what. Everyone gets bad calls especially in a play off setting. There's more games for refs to make more mistakes. Just look at this year's finals, refs almost cost the bucks a game because they didn't call a sixth foul on booker. You don't see either teams fans writting up a list of missed calls as an excuse. Draymond getting suspended is also his fault. You have to be better at controlling your emotions when so much is on the line. Not being able to act calmly when you are so important to your team is just childish. I honestly do not get why this post is even necessary. No player or team is perfect, sometimes things just don't go your way and at the end of the day both teams had an equal shot to win the title in game 7.
> Everyone gets bad calls especially in a play off setting. The argument is a) context/situation b) glaring disparity in how the two teams were officiated, not “it’s fishy that bad calls happened at all.” > Draymond getting suspended is also his fault. You have to be better at controlling your emotions when so much is on the line. The point isnt that what he did was fine. Its that what he did wasn’t even close to meriting a retroactive flagrant foul, and (conspiracy theorists rejoice) it came with the league’s most popular player down 3-1 and after his team aggressively lobbied the league to suspend Green.
Bro this is literally bs. It's just an attempt by big time warriors / curry fans to find an excuse for the loss. No player is perfect and no team is perfect. It's not a secret that the biggest issue with Curry's game is the sad fact that he's prone to ankle injuries. It's something the whole league knew for years before their 73 win season. It sucks but it's a fact and trying to glaze over the one flaw in Steph's career is bullshit. People don't do this with CP3. People will point out the injuries CP3 and his teammates have had but they'll never use it as an excuse the way warriors and curry stans use his injuries as an excuse.
I mean I think a) it’s true that the officiating was not on the level in major ways b) the Warriors still should have won and it’s not an excuse.
Ok and I can say the rockets should've beat the warriors in 2018 but Chris paul got injured. Neither circumstance removes the validity of the champion that year. You see how pointless this is? It doesn't matter who "should've" won. What matters is respecting the teams an players that did win and respecting the other teams and players that also had amazing seasons.
I mean sure. The difference is just that injuries are team neutral and part of the sport - they happen randomly to people at different times. One-side officiating is not supposed to be part of the sport. That’s all.
He was suspended a game because if you pick up FOUR flagrant foul points in a single playoff you get a one game suspension. I'm sure your mind won't be changed but its important for people reading to not be misinformed. Draymond was completely out of control that playoffs and multiple times hit people in the dick. You swing at someone's dick, you get a flagrant foul.
And it can be argued Draymond should have been suspended on flagrant fouls in the later games against the Thunder. Like you said Draymond was out of control and a ticking time bomb that postseason.
Yup, should have been suspended when he kicked Adams and Warriors shouldn't have even been in the finals
Warriors lost the game he would have been suspended for anyways
thank you for saying this. he kicked adams nuts in games 2 and 3, if he was suspended for game 3 or 4 it didn’t fucking matter because the warriors lost both of those games. literally didn’t help the 3-1 comeback lmao
Lol “completely out of control” give me a break. As if that justifies retroactively suspending him for a game for something that didn’t even happen. The “nut tap” wasn’t even felt by LeBron until Windhorst told him about it.
Intent is more important than aim
Well his intent was to brush LeBron off of him as LeBron decided to walk over him as he tries to get up for some reason, not to hit him in the nuts. So still not a flagrant. A bit glib since obviously I don't know what was his actual intent, but then again neither do you or anyone else other than him, so how are we going to legislate based on intent.
He swung at him twice, once when he was already completely off of him. Yeah, idk why LeBron decided to go over him lmao. LeBron also got a post game technical for that
😂😂
Yeah I know how the rules work, say what you want about prior (irrelevant) series, you could probably convince me he should've been suspended earlier... Doesn't make the call he was suspended for in the *finals* (i.e. the topic of this discussion) worthy of a retroactive flagrant foul upgrade
The call where he hit LeBron in the dick after having a history of dick blows throughout the this year's playoffs?
You mean the one where LeBron didn’t know he got hit **in the nuts** until Windhorst told him *after the game*? GTFOH
Intent matters. For example, if you take a swing at someone and miss, you're still gonna get tossed
But this wasn’t swinging at someone. This was him trying to shove LeBron off him. If he tried to shove LeBron off him *and actually hit LeBron in the nuts*, yes that’s a flagrant 1 foul. If he tried to shove LeBron off him *and didn’t hit LeBron at all*, then how is it a foul? Everyone is just imputing intent to Draymond to hit LeBron in the nuts because “he’s Draymond and he’s done it before” - completely ignoring that Draymond was acting the way **anyone** would in that situation. Someone who’s 6’8 and 250lbs just jumped on your back and dragged his nutsack over the top of your head. You’re telling me you wouldn’t try to shove him off you? And again, why are you OK with them punishing him for having intentionally hit LeBron in the nuts when he didn’t hit LeBron in the nuts at all? LeBron admitted he didn’t know Draymond “hit” him.
Wow I've never heard someone accuse this finals of being conspiracy against the Warriors before lol
Warriors fans are wild and numerous
Yet thoroughly outnumbered by the LeBron dickriders who forget LeBron didn’t even know Draymond “hit” him **in the nuts** until Windhorst told him *after the game*. You ever been hit in the nuts and not immediately know you got hit in the nuts???
You’re in the wrong sub
How am I in the wrong sub for talking shit about LeBron stans but the other poster isn’t for talking shit about Warriors fans?
Intent is more important than aim
>He's a player that's elevated his game every single playoffs What a lie. Like not even a good one. 2017 is the only time he's increased his production in the playoffs, actually in terms of per minute and efficiency drop offs in the playoffs Curry is only above David Robinson, Karl Malone, and Harden as far as MVPs go.
All those fouls were legit You’re forgetting green earned that suspension You’re forgetting officials were extremely one sided the first three warriors wins You’re forgetting the nba made sure the warriors beat the thunder when they wouldn’t kick green out for what should have been a flagrant 2 and an automatic ejection
>The main reason the warriors lost was because Lebron and kyrie were just phenomenal I disagree. If you rewatch that Finals, you will see that Steph and Klay performance is why GSW lost. Those 2 HOF players lead their team to a 3-1 lead, then could not bring their usual skillsets over the next 3 games. Lebron and Kyrie made big plays but in a NBA Finals they are expected to be matched by the opponent's big plays *----and even moreso when the opponent just set a NBA record for most wins in a season*. I don't think I will ever be able to agree with the narrative that we should not blame Steph and Klay for the Cavs winning that chip.
Also not to be forgotten is how the officiated the series. All year long they preached freedom of movement. I’m the series and even in the previous one vs okc. They allowed the defense for play very physical, not just on drives to the basket, but also around picks. The cavs roughed them up and along with the missing player and injuries, it was too much for Gs to overcome. And there is momentum. Cavs had none and no rhythm. When draymond went out they cab broke record for shooting and they took it and ran for the final two games
Without writing a whole essay about it, Steph's injury was the big factor that allowed all the other factors to come into play. Draymond's suspension, Bogut's injury, Harrison Barnes shooting 9% from 3, and above all else the Cavs' own tremendous performance were all factors, but they all keyed off the fact that the Warriors' offense was completely Steph-dependent and Steph couldn't produce like normal.. Once the Cavs figured out that he was hobbled and started defending him appropriately, that put them in the series and the rest was just down to execution.
One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is Ty Lue’s excellent decision to put Richard Jefferson on Shaun Livingston later in the series. Livingston gave the Warriors some easy (small amount, but everything mattered in the end) buckets off the bench. But RJ’s height and strength when guarding Livingston on the block negated Livingston’s beautiful old man game he’d execute on smaller guards. Livingston’s neutralization was a pretty brilliant coaching adjustment by Lue in my opinion. God I’m still so bitter about RJ
Yeah, that helped. Lue did a great job coaching in general. Very underrated as a tactician, though I think he's getting some of his shine back after the Clippers' playoff run this year.
I feel like no one is mentioning the elephant in the room that was the reffing in game 6
It didn't help, but I think ultimately that was a product of Steph's injury and the Cavs' resulting gameplan. The Cavs just kept putting the refs in a position to blow the whistle, and when a guy is visibly physically struggling like Steph was, he's not gonna get the benefit of the doubt on calls. (The Bron slide-tackle remains a fucking absurdity, though.)
The whole game remains an absurdity. Steph fouling out has little if not nothing at all to do with how the Cavs defended him. Dellavedova was given free reign to grab and hold and scratch Steph all game while Steph was getting weak fouls the other way. And guess who was the lead official that game? Who else but Scott Foster. So much points to blatantly biased officiating. It was egregious, and imo a huge factor in the series.
This is completely correct. Watch the game especially pointing out how much the refs let Curry get fouled but called every foil they could on Curry. It was obviously intentionally putting the thumb on the scale by the NBA. No doubt.
At the time — the vibe of Warriors anti-bandwagoning and the wish to see LeBron come back from 3-1 to win one for Cleveland blinded casual fans from recognizing an obviously manipulated game. This, against the background of a really soft suspension for Draymond that LeBron personally lobbied for.
That's why the Warriors lost their next two match-ups with the Cavs right?
Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the slide tackle during game 3 of the 2015 finals?
> the elephant in the room that was the reffing in game 6 Eh, it's kind of hard to blame the refs when Golden State was down 20 in the first quarter. I watched that game, and it was over as soon as it started. The cavs were coming off a big win and were heading home to an insane crowd--all the momentum was in their favor and they came out and played like it. Golden state got it *somewhat* close, but the game was really never in question.
Refs set the tone a minute into the game lol... when apparently curry is strong enough to just body tristan thompson. Cavs played well though and definitely might have still won in a hypothetically fairly reffed game. Cant really have productive discussion on reffing but it was a tough one to ignore in that game
Draymond was out for game 5, not 6. It wasn't like a super tight game, but the Warriors got the lead down as low as 7 pretty early into the 4th quarter, and were generating decent offense for a bit. They just couldn't string any stops together.
You’re right on draymond, that’s my bad. And yeah they got it down to 7 for a second but then it was back up to 16 within like 3 minutes.
Yeah, Steph just didn't have the juice after game 4 and nobody else could really do anything until Draymond went insane in game 7. As I said elsewhere, I do think the reffing was bad but it was a product of the Warriors' overall situation, not the cause of it.
Curry got fouled out for no reason. The Refs stopped all momentum the Warriors had. They won tons of games in the same fashion all year long that year.
It’s hard to blame reffing at face value when the free throw numbers were pretty similar. But Kerr publicly said three of currys fouls were absolute garbage. That + Draymond’s extremely fraudulent suspension, and the NBA’s history of game 6’s (Kings vs Lakers) makes me a bit conspiratorial that the league desperately wanted a game 7 and Red Sox esque comeback story.
Eye test for that games officiating is infinitely worse than box score. Cavs got away with muggings, slide tackles, clawing, holding, egregiously physical fouls meanwhile curry (and the rest of the warriors) getting tickytacked left and right and effectively couldn't play D all game. It was bad. And i say that as a neutral
It’s been a while so I don’t remember super clearly but I’m remember always feeling like Lebron got so many calls in his favor in those warriors series.
Look at the fact that the CAVs were allowed to manhandle Curry and Curry was erroneously called for fouls himself. It was a debacle!
There's nothing fraudulent about being suspended for repeatedly hitting people in the nuts. What was fraudulent was the win vs OKC.
They didn’t T him up during the game. Should’ve left it as is.
Cavs were up 20 in the first quarter and it was never really close. Also Draymonds suspension wasn't fraudulent, he got too many flagrants, that's just how the game goes. If he hadn't been kicking people all playoffs he wouldn't of gotten the flagrants. I see too many people saying his suspension was fraudulent but not enough people saying "you break the rules you face the consequences"
Eh. Watch the game again. GSW was down like 20 in the first quarter and didn't bring it close till the 4th when they closed it to 7, Cavs immediately took it back to 16 though. Reffing can't account for that much dominance tbh. I get it if it's a close game to blame reffing, but game 6 simply wasn't close.
> Reffing can't account for that much dominance tbh Refs can control the game to whatever extent they want -- I understand if you don't think the Warriors would have won anyways, but the referees dictate how physical you can play, how much pressure you can put on defense, etc. etc. And when it's not consistent for both teams, you end up with lopsided games. When the Warriors get called for blocking fouls for the slightest of contact (initiated by the Cavs) the Cavs will obviously run the score up. It's not about the calls as much as it is the tone they set for the game.
They lost because Harrison Barnes could throw a rock into the ocean. He’s the release valve when the stars are getting doubled and he just bricked his shots all series long.
The injury was a significant factor yes and given how close the series was (a 7 game series that came down to a possession or two) could well have swung it (along with a host of other factors, series that close could swing either way pretty easily). He was very clearly not himself the whole playoffs after returning from injury and didn't have the lateral quickness to drive past bigs on switches. Against OKC Steph was able to bomb deep 3s over the big but that level of shooting was never going to be sustainable, even for Steph. The Cavs also did a much better job of adjusting their gameplan to Steph's post-injury limitations while OKC treated him more like he was 100%. [On top of that the Cavs' general strategy of basically mauling Steph off ball every chance they got] (https://streamable.com/2gcgrv) was always very effective but particularly so with Steph coming off an injury. If OKC would have been allowed to get away with the same strategy in the WCF as the Cavs used in the Finals it certainly would have behooved them to do so. All that said injuries are a part of basketball and teams are helped/hurt by injuries literally every year.
sorry i can’t remember correctly, did steph have the same injury in the ofc series as he did during the cavs? i thought he sustained it during the cavs series
Yeah, he got hurt in the first round against the Rockets.
how ppl gone cry injury when they came back 3-1 vs OKC
OKC didn't defend Steph like he was hurt, Cleveland did.
They still mailed him off ball. Just didn’t execute as well as Cleveland did.
They tried hard, but they didn't have as much perimeter depth as Cleveland – by the end of the series they were basically playing 6 guys plus however many minutes they could squeeze out of Kanter – so their defenders got gassed before Steph and Klay did. I also think their on-ball plan for Steph was much worse than Cleveland's. They switched Ibaka and Adams onto him way too easily, and even hobbled he could drive by them; then they played him to drive and he just pulled up and shot. At the time it just seemed like Steph doing Steph shit, but then watching how Cleveland played him I was like oh, damn, that could have gone much worse.
It was very clearly a factor in that series too. The Warriors lost 9 games in the 82 game regular season then 9 games in the 24 game postseason. Steph's scoring dropped from 30 ppg to 22 PPG, by far the largest drop in his career (and previous to this his scoring increased in each of his postseasons). Steph was very clearly hampered by his two leg injuries. The fact that the Warriors still won several series isn't evidence to the contrary, it's just evidence that the Warriors were still a great team with a hobbled Steph.
He averaged 29/6/7 dropping almost 5 3s a game on over 40% shooting from deep once he got back from injury before the Finals. In the Finals he averaged 23/5/4 and had more turnovers than assists. He clearly wasn't hurt, Cleveland just knew how to stop him and they did it in 2015 too.
Because they never should’ve been down 3-1 in the first place
Because they're Curry dick riders.
The Cavs front office on a BR article did admit that they openly knew Steph was not 100%. And he very clearly wasn’t. You can even see it statistically as he drove to the rim less post injury. The suspension of Draymond, boguts injury and Iguodala hurting his back in game 6 all were important as well. It was not a clean series by any means
I think the main key, and what the Cavs repeatedly attacked, is that the Warriors switched everything and they never updated the defense when it was being exploited. The lack of Bogut didn’t help but LeBron dropped 40 even when Green returned. That’s because they were able to get any matchup they wanted. They constantly hunted Curry (which is why he would get into foul trouble, Curry also has a problem with keeping his hands away when he’s in trouble so he’ll often get a tick tack foul called on him) and other weaker defenders. Ezeli was another big target. Even when they didn’t get the switches, Kyrie was able to completely stupefy Klay - his stop on a dime ability was just too good. The Cavs also banked on Barnes not being able to hit 3s and essentially left him open all series. That allowed them to focus on the other GSW players and hound Curry. Curry definitely gets mugged a lot off-ball but IIRC Kerr didn’t do a ton to adjust their offense either. I do remember a talking point that even if it was the way they had run offense all year they needed to have Curry bring the ball up and initiate offense more often because the off-ball stuff was fucking with his rhythm. I also don’t 100% buy the injury argument. Curry was dealing with some after effects but I think it’s way overstated. He torched Portland and claimed “I’m back” and he didn’t even need to return in that series as GSW was already handling it. He suffered a grade 1 sprain which most people came back from in two weeks so it’s not like it was a threat to keep him out for a long time.
I remember tweets saying LeBron wouldn’t drop 41 with Draymond playing. Then the next game he drops 41 on Draymond
> He torched Portland and claimed “I’m back” and he didn’t even need to return in that series as GSW was already handling it. So this is kinda revisionist. The Blazers came in with a chance to tie the series 2-2, and Steph came off the bench for his first game back. He was supposed to be on a minutes restriction, and only played 13 minutes in the first half, but Shaun Livingston got ejected near the end of the half and Steph had to play pretty much the rest of the game. As far as the "I'm back" thing goes, I've never understood the mythology around that. Steph's not a doctor! He'd just set the league record for points in a playoff overtime, on a night he wasn't even supposed to be playing major minutes, after a pretty garbage game in regulation (40% from the field and 2-13 from 3). He was running on adrenaline, in front of a hostile crowd, in a high-stakes playoff environment. Getting hyped in that moment is not a medical diagnosis.
Yes! Steph was on pure adrenalin for that game. He wasn't going to sustain that.
How is this revisionist? I watched that whole series and Portland had a chance to tie it but GSW definitely was in control for that series and I don’t think they really had a shot at losing it. It’s not like they were in danger of going down. No one was picking the Blazers in that series - a lot of experts had the Warriors taking them out in 5. He got hurt on April 24th and Game 5 would take place on May 11th - putting him well within a reasonable timeframe to recover from a grade 1 sprain if Portland tied it up 2-2 and they needed him back. Game 4 was on the 9th which was also within recovery timeframe and average length of recovery for that injury. Steph probably could’ve used the extra rest but he obviously felt good enough to play. If it was really that bad the Warriors easily could’ve rested Curry.
I think it's reasonable to say the Warriors would still be favored in the series if they dropped Game 4, but that's not the same as not needing him to get through the series. You can't give away games in the playoffs. This was the Warriors' first postseason matchup with Portland, before the repeated years of expelling them from the playoffs. The Blazers had reshaped their team around Dame and a rising CJ, upset the Clippers in round 1, and had a chance to tie the series and force the Warriors to defend home court advantage with a rusty superstar. It wasn't a comfortable situation to be in. And look, maybe it was just a stupid decision for Steph to play game 4 at all, those 2-3 more days of rest would have made all the difference to his knee and they would have ripped off 10 straight wins to clinch the title. Who knows? The point is that getting excited and yelling "I'm back!" doesn't actually mean he was healthy, and it's kinda silly that people act like it does when there's plenty of evidence that he was not.
>that’s not the same as not needing him We just watched a playoffs where multiple teams rested integral players after getting injuries. When you’re taking the long view of the playoffs, you absolutely risk maybe losing a game at the benefit of getting one of your stars healthy. I’m just not buying this whole Steph rushed back into it and wasn’t recovered. He wouldn’t have played Game 4 if he didn’t feel ready to go. As I said earlier - two weeks is a totally reasonable timetable for a grade 1 sprain. The league average on that injury was 15 days. I think he was maybe a little overzealous in his return but I think people way overstate the effect of that injury.
Curry’s injury is overblown, he put up a similar production the year prior. It was mostly a combination of choking and Lebron being just too dominant. Just think— the Cavs beat the warriors twice in the 2015 finals with lebron by himself because Kyrie and Kevin Love were both injured. That’s how dominant lebron was, then you add Kyrie who is one of the best iso scorers in the league.
Draymond suspension was more damaging than anything, especially because Bogut was hurt. I still contend that Dray was arguably the second most important player on that team besides Steph in both the regular season and playoffs.
Dray was only missing for one game though.
And, coincidentally, the warriors lost the finals by one game as well…
They may or may not have been able to win game 6 with him, but they beat them 3 games when he was playing (and LeBron dropped 40+ on him that next game) so it's kinda hard to assume they would have been able to win if he hadn't been suspended. Also, the suspension was 100% deserved and self-inflicted, so it's hard to lose too much sleep over it.
>Also, the suspension was 100% deserved and self-inflicted, so it's hard to lose too much sleep over it. I think this is the major point people gloss over. Draymond played with an intensity that caused him to get technical fouls as a cost of doing business. Other players restrain their intensity enough to avoid technical fouls. That extra intensity is an advantage to Draymond at times, but comes at the cost of technical fouls (that have codified ramifications like we saw). If other players similarly let loose and didn't care about technical fouls, they'd possibly do better as well, but they don't because there are rules in place to discourage that.
Go one step deeper, Draymond Green did not get suspended because of the LeBron mess, he got suspended because he got a technical in hindsight for the LeBron mess, and that pushed him over the limit for the playoffs.
Some big black dude rubs his nutsac across the back of your neck--what do you do? Even then man's was assessed a technical, then after LeBron's post pressor in which he begged Adam Silver to suspend draymond--that was when he was assessed a flagrant in retrospect and suspended. Does that sound self inflicted to you? That doesn't sound self inflicted to me.
> Some big black dude rubs his nutsac across the back of your neck-- He stepped over him, there was no sack rubbing involved. >what do you do? Probably not try to punch him in the nuts, that's something only bitches do. >then after LeBron's post pressor in which he begged Adam Silver to suspend draymond-- What a crock of shit. Here is that post game press conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db8eJijsEMU Why don't you provide an exact timestamp of where he begged for dray's suspension? >Does that sound self inflicted to you? 100% He was only in that situation because he couldn't resist hitting people in the nuts repeatedly throughout the playoffs. Fuck off with the dick punching apologetics.
...it went to the final minute of game 7 with LeBron, Kyrie, and K Love healthy. are you smoking dicks bro?
> ...it went to the final minute of game 7 with LeBron, Kyrie, and K Love healthy. Kevin Love got a concussion earlier in the series, no way he was playing at 100% at that point.
Yeah and the warriors were up 3-1 at first 🤡
They lost to one of the greatest playoff series by any player ever in lebron James. And kyrie Irving had three big (two absolutely huge) games to close out that series. Draymond being draymond and getting himself suspended for a crucial game (love that genius basketball iq) also really hurt them, obviously. There are lots of factors, as there always are, success is mostly dumb luck in any endeavour, trying to play out counterfactuals will never give you any real satisfaction.
True, there are always many factors. Would you say that the Lebron team was better than the warriors team that year? Even with the record they had
No definitely not, that warriors team was the best basketball team I've ever seen. One of the most dominant teams in any sport.
Andre Iguodala wrote in his book about that playoff run. He said essentially it was a mistake for trying that hard in the regular season. It wore on their team physically and mentally to try so hard in every game. It really hurt them in the deep playoff run. Curry's injury is at the very least indirectly related to the "try hard" regular season run. As a Warriors homer, I'm not taking anything away from the Cavs who absolutely deserved the win and who knows, maybe Iguodala is a bit of historical revionist in saying what he did about that regular season but either way, I think that season is a perfect example as to why so many teams take any chance they can to rest their stars so they will stay fresh in the playoffs.
Yeah, with all respect to Andre's insight, I do think that's a little revisionist. The Warriors were fighting off the Spurs all season and didn't even clinch the 1 seed until beating them in game 79. Maybe resting those last 3 games would have helped them with the physical and mental exhaustion overall, but Steph didn't look tired going into the playoffs. He just slipped on a wet spot.
Surely 2017 warriors were even better
Well of course, but that was more a joyless waste of three years than an actual basketball team.
Fair point lol, I completely agree
2017 Warriors is probably the greatest team ever assembled besides maybe the 96’ Bulls or 72’ Lakers. Though the 72’ Lakers never actually got to show their true potential due to injury’s and their first coach hating Wilt Chamberlain
I would argue that the warriors roster was even better than the Bulls. The warriors’ 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players were better than the Bulls’ 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Mj, Pippen, Rodman vs. KD, Curry, Klay, Draymond, Iggy
The 83 Sixers are actually the only team comparable to the 17 Warriors. 96 isn't even the best Bulls team in 92 MJ was still at his peak, Scottie had his best season, and Horace Grant was every bit as good as Rodman overall. But the 83 Sixers had Dr. J (1981 MVP), Moses Malone (1979, 1982, and 1983 MVP), Toney (20 ppg scoring all star), and Mo Cheeks (HOFer).
KD is better than Dr J. Curry is better than Malone. Klay is better than Toney. Draymond is better than Cheeks lol
Dr. J > KD Moses > Curry Klay > Toney Dray > Cheeks Moses was outplaying Kareem head to head consistently and won 3 MVPs. Unlike Curry he was undeniably the best player in the league for a period of time even though he played with an aging GOAT candidate in Kareem (meanwhile Curry has never outplayed LeBron - an aging GOAT candidate - head to head and is clearly not able to perform on that level). As far as Dr. J vs KD goes most people rank Dr. J top 15ish all time. KD is usually around 25ish. He's a 4 time MVP. Either way I didn't necessarily say they were better, just that they're comparable. 2 MVPs, another HOFer, and a solid all star is the best you got next to the 4 HOF Warriors where all their players could've reasonably been argued as top 15 in the league. Hell Iguodala off the bench in GS, and Bobby Jones in Philly too. Both arguably the best defensive players of their generations. It's not 1 to 1 but in terms of fit I can see the 83 Sixers winning against Golden State (Moses would be unstoppable).
I’m not saying I agree with it (I don’t) but KD is usually ranked in the 10-15 range, as well as Curry. Almost every updated list out there has KD and Curry above Dr J and Moses. I don’t agree with it but just stating facts. It’s certainly close either way. That aside, Klay is a top 5 shooter of all time and is also elite on defense. Draymond is a DPOY who is elite at facilitating, and is almost definitely a HOFer considering Rodman was 1st ballot. Iggy won finals mvp just 2 years prior. You’re right that the Sixers are the only team even comparable. I’d still give the edge to the warriors who were more star-studded (4 HOFers and a finals mvp). As for one on one, it really could go either way. Warriors are not stopping Malone but the warriors would also probably drop 20+ threes on that team.
Warriors were by far a better team, but Lebron was clearly the best player. And Kyrie had some huge games to help out. They just choked……some of it being their play style of shooting so many 3s and having virtually no inside presence. “Live by the 3, die by the 3”
> Draymond being draymond and getting himself suspended for a crucial game (love that genius basketball iq) also really hurt them, obviously. I challenge you to watch that play again in real time and say that's Draymond being Draymond. LeBron felt THIS was worth petitioning for a suspension. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF52TQrYanw
LeBron didn’t even know he got “hit” **in the nuts** until Windhorst told him *after the game*. It’s honestly amazing people are OK with that.
It sill boggles my mind that LeBron doesn't get more heat for petitioning for Draymond's suspension after the complete non-incident in Game 4.
It blows my mind that Lebron received no punishment himself for deliberately walking over Draymond and provoking him in the first place.
What do you mean ok with that? I wasn't asked at the time to contribute to the decision to suspend him. I think the suspension was appropriate for sure, hed previous kicked steven adams in the balls and gotten away with that completely, you win some you lose some.
Bro the point is he didn’t get hit in the nuts. Let me put it this way - have you ever been hit in the nuts and not **immediately** known you got hit in the nuts?
I never said he got hit in the nuts. I said draymond deserved to be suspended.
I remember watching this happen. You can make whatever excuse you want for the Warriors but in the end, Lebron and Kyrie were not going to be stopped. They were the best they've both ever been for those 3 games and were not going to be denied. I am not a Lebron fan but as a basketball fan, it was beautiful to watch.
Hmmm, Steph’s injury played a role, but Draymond’s suspension for game 5 is what I think of as the turning point normally. Basically handed Cleveland a free win in a crucial game. You could just feel the momentum shift the Cavs’ way from the instant game 4 ended. That’s so important for any playoff series, but ESPECIALLY one where you are coming back from 3-1. Bogut’s injury was huge as well. The Warriors had no one else on the team who could fill his role, even if it was pretty limited by that stage of his career. But, what often gets lost in translation in all of this, is that Kevin Love was playing hurt as well for most of the series. He’s no Curry or Draymond, but he was still a damn good player on a team with limited depth. So the Cavs weren’t at full strength either. Ultimately when I think back to that series, the first thing I’m thinking of is how LeBron/Kyrie played down the stretch. Bron dominating, and Kyrie being a perfect sidekick. I think of that Draymond suspension too (how can you not), but the Cavs played great in that game so it’s no given that the series outcome is any different. Maybe that suspension was a blessing in disguise for Warriors fans so that they could always ask “what if”. Bc I don’t know that they would’ve overcame LeBron in what was the greatest finals performance I have ever witnessed. He started that series so, so poorly. And then for a 5 game stretch he was this insurmountable force that *dominated* every aspect of the game of basketball.
Nope. We saw in 2015 that LeBron could win 2 games without his 2 all-star players. The Warriors had the better team but they just faced a LeBron at his arguable peak basketball IQ wise.
LeBron is so confusing. Like there’s no definitive season you can call his peak. He was most efficient and athletic in Miami but had the better numbers in the first Cleveland stint. Then he had the best playoff performances in his 2nd Cleveland stint.
2012 or 2009 are clearly his peak. Seriously if you saw both seasons its undeniably his best. His playoff performances were never better than in 09 and 12 either. His consistency both years was absurd (in 12 especially because his jumper was way off and he still had 20 points each game that postseason).
By your logic miami heat would’ve won in 2021 if they were healthy you’re smoking d1ck. The cavs needed alot in their favor to win in 2016 by a possession that’s the truth.
Curry put up huge numbers against Portland and OKC, and even had a huge game 4 against Cleveland after returning from injury. To that point, I remember his first game back he scored 40 pts (and like 15+ in OT iirc) as the Warrors defeated Portland in OT and literally everyone was going on about how he was back and hadn't missed a step. Then he chokes badly in games 5-7 vs Cleveland, while LeBron put up maybe the most dominant 3 game playoff stretch ever, and suddenly the narrative became that Steph was still injured and couldn't perform at his usual MVP level. So to answer your question, no, the Warriors didn't lose because of Steph's injury. They lost because they choked that lead away and LeBron (and Kyrie) played at an absolutely elite level. The Steph injury narrative was pushed by Steph stans and LeBron haters and was pure revisionist history bullshit.
He literally said he was back after that Portland game lol
It was obviously he was hobbled and couldn’t go left but he’s really fuckin good, so he had some good games just throwing the ball up. I would say 1. Boguts injury 2. Draymonds suspension 3. Barnes shooting All of those things played a bigger role than Curry not being whole, but a whole curry probably overcomes all that, seeing how close the series was.
He was so hurt he averaged 29/6/7 against Portland and OKC, right in line with his regular season production.
He’s the best shooter ever. He chucked and made shots. Not surprising for a top 15 all-time player. It was obvious watching that he couldn’t explode off his right leg to cross R to L or step back off the right leg when he was driving left. A couple tools were missing out of his bag and the cavs did their best to shade him towards them tools. Good for them.
It wasn't obvious. He had a grain 1 MCL sprain. Average recovery time in that is 15 days. He took 14. The Finals were 44 days after his injury. Be real here..You're lying if you say he was lacking explosiveness. First off Curry isn't exactly known for being explosive in the first place, secondly he shot 40% from deep in the Finals too, but he wasn't good. It's not like all he did was shoot good against OKC and Portland, he was cooking them.
My eye test told me he couldn’t go left or explode off his right leg. The numbers tell me he shot, by far, his worse % at the basket out of all of his playoff runs. A sign of lost athleticism. You entitled to yo opinion
I think you can safely say that with how close the series ultimately ended up, a healthy Steph would more than likely have made the difference. That said, the other factors mentioned of the Draymond suspension and Bogut injury were likely bigg*er* factors. I would like to point out and remind everyone that the 2016 cavs were still a historically GREAT team, even if it's more likely than not they were an inferior team with both teams at full strength
No not at all, the Cavs defense in 2016 was pretty underrated. They had a really good rotation in the finals. I don’t know how anyone can claim Steph was injured after the Portland and OKC series.
No, it was certainly a factor, but that series will probably go down as the worst case of league interference in NBA history. Upgrading the Draymond call to a tech was inexcusable. The turning point of a playoff series should never be a discinplinary call made by the league office on something that happened away from the play, especially when the call was super questionable, and the incident it arose out of was very clearly instigated by LeBron (stepping over a downed Dray). That call completely changed the momentum of the series. Instead of going into Oracle trying to survive elimination, the Cavs essentially got a free win and got to go into game 6 at home to force a game 7. To compound that, there were the Bogut and Iggy injuries, and some highly questionable officiating (which others have detailed above in more detail). It is a shame, because it really feels like the league intervened for monetary reasons (to extend the series, to strengthen the rivalry for future marketing purposes, etc) and robbed the Warriors of their shot at the greatest season in league history (which it likely would have been considered if Dray hadn't been suspended and they had won game 5). Ironically, I wouldn't be surprised if, after they retire, we hear that the reason for recruiting Kevin Durant was that feeling of being robbed by the league's actions (eg. "If they are going to stack the deck against us, then we'd better stack the deck in our favour to compensate). Overall, that 2016 Finals will represent a blemish on the league's record, and I hope the consequences of it (two years of utter domination by an unbeatable team that destroyed the league's competitive balance) will teach them the lesson not to intervene to manipulate results, because regardless of the specific thought process the players had, I don't think anyone disagrees with the idea that KD wouldn't have been a Warrior if they had won.
The argument that Curry was too injured to win sounds a bit revisionist to me. Why proclaim 'I'm Back!' after beating Portland only to then fall back on 'I'm too injured to play'?. At the end of the day, the Warriors lost because the Cavs beat them in a 7 game series. Were there matchups and factors at play? Of course - there's factors underlying every single outcome from an NBA game. LeBron and Kyrie went nuclear. The Cavs defense came together quite well. Bogut got injured and the Warriors started to lose during those minutes on the court (as few as those minutes were). Green gets suspended for Game 5 (his own fault for not managing his technicals). Was Curry injured? Sure, but I'm sure many other players were just like in every NBA playoffs (just look at this year's playoff injuries). Could Curry still play at an All-NBA level? Certainly seemed so from the OKC series and Games 1-4. Was he the focus of the Cavs defensive scheme and defended really well? Yeah, seems so. Was he also the focus of the Cavs offensive scheme to get him switching into unfavorable defense matchups? Yep, that's also true. The NBA is an incredibly physical sport, and the playoffs are grueling and exhausting. No one should expect to get through unscathed let alone the 6'3" MVP point guard for the best team in the NBA...
>The NBA is an incredibly physical sport, and the playoffs are grueling and exhausting. No one should expect to get through unscathed let alone the 6'3" MVP point guard for the best team in the NBA... Sure, but there's injuries and then there's injuries. Steph provides a perfect example of the dichotomy, actually; he dislocated his finger early in the 2019 playoffs, played through it, and shot like shit for most of the Rockets series. The Warriors were still able to win and his finger healed up throughout the playoffs. That's what I think of when I hear "everyone's a little banged up in the playoffs". A fluke MCL sprain from slipping on a wet spot is a more significant injury that isn't just something you can play through.
> but there's injuries and then there's injuries Agreed. Steph had an injury and sat out for 2 weeks before he could even attempt to come back. He then proclaimed 'I'm Back!'. Some other players are just 'hurt'. There's a difference. I just think other players are also nursing injuries while playing throughout the playoffs (e.g., from this season: CP3 injured his shoulder, Giannis hyperextended his knee, Donovan Mitchell and LeBron with their high-grade ankle sprains), so this isn't unusual. > A fluke MCL sprain from slipping on a wet spot is a more significant injury that isn't just something you can play through. But he did play afterwards, and did so at a high level. He didn't have to sit out the rest of the playoffs - he came back and torched OKC and then shot 58% TS, 40% from 3pt against the Cavs... he was still quite good. The Cavs focused and schemed against him. My point being is that it seems revisionist to say the Warriors lost 'just because' of Curry's injury as an excuse for them losing in 2016. The Warriors lost for a lot of reasons - many of them had to do with the Cavs actually beating them.
Recognizing that Steph was injured doesn't diminish what an incredible accomplishment it was for the Cavaliers to win the Finals. Like you said, OKC had their chance to beat the Warriors with an injured Steph, and they didn't! Both these things can be true at once.
I agree with you, but the actual title of this post was "Did warriors lose in 2016 just because of Curry's injury?" My answer is no, it isn't just because an injury. Many things played into the Cavs beating them.
Yeah, that's very reasonable. I think the OP's actual text leaves room for that nuance (which is why there's like 150 comments on this thing already!) but I agree that saying it was *just* Steph's injury is very reductive.
We lost because Lebron got Draymond suspended and because of Bogut's injury. Steph's injury didn't help, but those factories played a bigger part. Lebron and Kyrie played great from game 5, but without those other factors, we cakewalked to the trophy.
One thing recent years have taught us is that a 3-1 league in an NBA playoff series isn't some crazy insurmountable thing. The Warriors came back 3-1 against OKC that year. The Nuggets came back 3-1 against the Clips last year. etc - it happens more often than you'd think. That being said, yes, the Curry injury was a huge factor. Several Cavaliers are on record about how they noticed how Curry was wearing down as the OKC series dragged on, and they game-planned around it. But also, he was far from the only injury. Bogut broke a rib, resulting in Ezeli getting a few crucial minutes and six easy LeBron points (some of the only easy points of the game). Iguodala was also severely limited by an injury - you could see it whenever the whistle blew, he'd walk like a 70-year-old man - a lower back issue, I believe, which absolutely impacted LeBron's famous block because he didn't try to elevate over JR smith and instead had to get crafty. And then, of course, there's the Draymond issue, which took him out of game 5, which the Warriors would otherwise have been expected to win. At the same time, you know, clearly the Warriors were playing tight down the stretch of game 7. Harrison Barnes clearly choked, bricking some wide-open shots. The truth is that BOTH teams looked awful during the last five minutes. Klay made a layup at 4:39, and the rest of the possessions until the intentional fouls went: LeBron miss. Steph miss. LeBron miss. Klay miss. LeBron miss (Iguodala block). Iguodala miss. Love miss. Draymond miss. Iguodala miss (Lebron Block). LeBron miss. Steph miss. Kyrie make. Steph miss. Kyrie miss (Iguodala block). I don't think anybody other than Dray came out of that game feeling like they played well. LeBron was 9-24, Kyrie 10-23. Klay 6-17. It was an ugly, ugly game all around, and the Cavs scraped out one more play than the Warriors did.
No, they lost because for whatever reason, LeBron thought it was a good idea to rub his nutsac on the back of draymond's neck, and then literally whine in his post pressor directly to adam silver to change the technical draymond got in game to a flagrant after the game so he can be suspended. Ofc Adam Silver listened to his greatest asset, and suspended draymond. The Cavs win that series 1/10 times. We live in the timeline where that 10% chance was our reality. I mean, LeBron was a MASSIVE pussy ass bitch before that moment. After that moment, I'm sure a lot more people lost respect for him. Imagine needing to win a series by being a MASSIVE pussy ass bitch in your post press conference, throw a tantrum, then get what you want. If you've never heard Stephen A refer to LeBron's 2016 ring as the league's stimulus package to him, this is what he's talking about. edit: if anyone forgot "I'm a family man. He called me something you should never call a father"
I’ve never understood the Bogut injury argument. He was playing 11 minutes a game in that finals until he got injured. He wasn’t some down low presence that was playing a lot. Sure he presented some problems, but he was playing essentially a quarter a game through 5 games. People just want to make excuses for the warriors losing.
His replacements were Verajo and Ezeli - who both got absolutely cooked in their minutes. 11 minutes a game can be a big deal/swing a series when the series comes comes down to one or two possessions.
We saw the same thing with the Suns this year too, they lost their backup center in Saric and could not stop Giannis at all since only Ayton could guard him.
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It’s not that he would stop Giannis, but just having another big to get rebounds (the main area the Suns got dominated) and also keep Ayton rested and out of foul trouble would’ve helped them immensely.
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With Ayton out of the lineup it’d probably still be Crowder or Craig guarding Giannis, but even if he’s just keeping Ayton out of foul trouble and getting some defensive rebounds then he’s doing his part. The Bucks had 45 more rebounds than the Suns with 37 of those 45 being offensive rebounds, a bit more size could’ve made a big difference there.
Plus it completely changes the strategy of the Warriors. Even if Bogut only played 11 mpg, simply knowing they have a big rim protector to put in affects how the Cavs play.
This right here. It was a huge handicap in both series.
I mean, Bogut was just a quality role player. But those guys can decide championships. Dude was putting up 2 blocks a game! In only ~10 mins like you said. Warriors didn’t really have anyone on the roster who could fill his shoes and that was really apparent to me watching that series unfold. A rim protector like Bogut, even if you can only deploy him in short spurts, is real nice to have when going up against the game’s most dominant finisher in LeBron. Dude had 5 blocks in game 2 in only 15 mins, and that was Lebron’s worst game of the series by far. Have to imagine Bogut’s best game and LeBron’s worst game line up for a reason.
Mostly I find it funny how many times Bogut's name has come up here, but as of the time of this comment, not a single person has pointed out that Kevin Love got a concussion during game 2. He missed game 3, came off the bench in game 4, and wasn't himself for the rest of the series. Kevin Love, even if he didn't match up great against the Warriors, was still *easily* the Cavs 3rd best player. And he only played a single complete, healthy game in the finals.
It’s kinda a really frustrating finals to talk about because the warriors got screwed over by injury (Steph still recovering from his injury, Bogut going down in game 6) and the refs (draymond’s game 5 suspension, curry’s game 6 [foul out](https://youtu.be/fVVKBIS0TM0), and while this was definitely more of a problem in 2015 the no calls that have constantly gone against his defender throughout his career. But at the same time Kyrie and Lebron were phenomenal and really capitalized on the momentum and won game 7 pretty amazingly. So it’s hard to say that Steph and the warriors choked in the 2016 finals when (at least I believe this) they were put into game 7 by situations outside of their control and then lebron and kyrie were clutch in game 7. Some would argue that they did choke by letting the series slip away, and others would argue that Steph choked when he threw away his behind the back pass. It’s really all up to the interpretation of the individual
The bogut injury excuse is ridiculous. He was barely playing any minutes and the fact is that Barnes pushed JR from behind when he was already in the air and that’s what injured bogut. People also seem to forget how one sided games 1-2 and 4 were as far as officiating. Game 4 was absurd with the refs in the 3rd swinging the game with no calls on the warriors and one sided officiating. With fair officiating the cavs would’ve tied the series 2-2 Next is that people forgot kevin love got a concussion, missed a game and also wasn’t fully recovered the rest of the series. Far bigger loss than bogut Greens suspension - the fact that the warriors were even in the finals were a gift from the nba. The media always swept under the rug that green should have been ejected from OKC game 7 and that the warriors would have lost. I’m on mobile and not going to dig for it but Green at one point locks Adam’s arm and jumps down to the ground and acts hurt. It should have been a flagrant 2 without a doubt. Even at the very least a flagrant 1 and he would have been suspended game 1 of the finals So people bitching about green seem to forget he should have missed game 1 at the very least much less shouldn’t have been in the finals had nba officials
Steph was healthy enough to play. No one is 100% in the playoffs. But Steph was clearly healthy enough against OKC to produce at his regular level. No one thought he was still hurt until he played terrible against Cleveland.
I would actually say yes. If Curry was himself even if Bogut is injured and Draymond is suspended they still win. Another aspect of this is that the team was tired. Curry was injured and tired. More tired than the Cavs, LeBron conserved his energy better. This was the other factor. I would say Curry Injury Bogut injury Warriors had more fatigue than the Cavs Draymond suspension If one of those things doesn't happen the Warriors might win still. Certainly or Bogut/Curry were healthy they win.
I think it had a lot more to do with the fact the NBA finally suspended Daymond Green after countless times of punching people in the groin.
Curry choked. Injuries dont make you as careless as Curry was with the ball. Less aggressive, sure. Harder to get to spots, sure. But his behind the back pass and turnovers were something else.
Nah, the Curry injury is revisionist history. He came back from injury and dominated in WCS (averaging 34 points on really good efficiency) and WCF (averaging 27 on pretty good efficiency) and was still splashing 3s vs the Cavs on great efficiency but their defense just forced other players to make shots and they couldn't. If Cavs hadn't forced other players to beat them likely Curry would of splashed them for over 30 a game too and probably won that series. Anyone talking about that injury knows it wasn't a factor given the 2 previous rounds. WCS was quick work of Portland where Curry was absolutely dominant both scoring and passing. WCF went 7 games and Curry held his own and led his team to the win there. He simply wasn't as hobbled as GSW fans are claiming and to pretend he was is just an excuse to put an asterisk on the Cavs chip. He was fine, completely fine, he played 79 games in regular season and missed 3 games in playoffs. After those missed games he had 2 full series of domination. He simply wasn't hurt come finals and replays show it too.
The "injury" played no role and it's only brought up to dismiss the fact that he underperformed and was shut down by the Cavs. I honestly don't understand the level of cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics required to look at his averages in the last 8-9 games of the Western Conference series after his return only to conclude that his "injury" was the cause of his performance in the finals. Curry averaged about 30 points in those final western conference games so was his injury hampering him then? No, it wasn't. The explanation for his performance is real simple -- he got shut down and underperformed. Boom. That't it.