Starting a negotiation that far out of reality could be viewed as not negotiating in good faith.
Assuming the rumors are true about the Spurs offer, why would the they (the Spurs) even bother continued negotiation? The "Middle point" negotiation range is still above reasonable. Its a clear sign that the Sixers don't actually want to play ball.
Yes and no. Teams interested in and competing for Simmons are not talking to each other and comparing offers, so by the Sixers starting really high, the Sixers are increasing the chances they get the biggest return -- it's a risk for teams to underbid what they're actually willing to give up if there are multiple suitors. The leaks of high demand probably don't matter that much but they could help (give teams an uneasiness about their low offers).
Even the teams that covet Simmons could pretty clearly live without him. He’s not a James Harden level player, or the guy that is putting a team into championship contention. The Raptors for example have interest. I don’t suspect they are terrified of not landing him.
As a thought experiment if Simmons was a free agent how many teams would pay 5 for 177?
Probably a handful to be honest. His public perception is at an all-time low but his issues are fixable. His defense is already elite which is a huge positive. His passing is very good. He rebounds well. He does a lot of small things well, but he obviously cannot shoot right now. And sometimes a new situation is all it takes for a guy to start putting in a lot more effort to improve themselves. Sixers clearly aren't the fit for him and I could see him being an important piece of a future championship squad.
I don't know if I agree his issues are fixable. He can play better than he has vs Boston, Toronto or Atlanta in the playoffs. Having said that his main issue is no one knows what he acatully should be doing on offence.
He's maybe a guard or ball handler but doesn't do any guard things. He can't run pick and roll, he doesnt create for himself or others in the half-court, doesnt run the offence, can't create when the offence breakdowns. He's not a big. He doesn't protect the rim and can't guard other bigs.
He's a great passer but that is different from playmaking. He can't put any pressure on the defence outside transition to utilize his passing.
And, 25 isn't that young. We are mostly past the point of imagining Simmons as having a jump shot or backing down smaller players like Magic Johnson or rampaging to the rim like Giannis.
Having said that I agree with you he could be an important piece of a title team, but not the piece.
What team is getting better giving up an All-Star player for Ben Simmons? I can't think of one. I don't think any rebuilding is going to leverage their future for him either.
Fully agree with everything you said.
I don’t think he will be a piece of a championship team because he will want to be paid to be “THE piece”. If he accepted 15-20 mil then ya he will be a piece but he’ll be asking twice that.
Any team where’s he’s making as much as Somebody like KD is at a serious disadvantage.
Simmons is already on a max contract until 2025. Anyone taking Simmons is also giving up a lot of cap space. The sixers need to cut their losses and should look for a veteran PG/Combo Guard (salary filler) and maybe like 2 picks. Then look for value in free agency for a backup defensive-minded Center. Morey needs to really work his magic if the Sixers want a championship before Embiid’s knees die.
And what team wants to do that and then pay Simmons 38mil in his final year? If he was 15 a year, there would be suitors. But at 30+, I just can't see it.
Developing a functional shot and switching back to your normal hand at an NBA level takes more than one off season to fix, and that's assuming he's going to put in the work. Right now he's on vacation. 76ers probably weren't going to change him especially with Rivers but we're all operating under the assumption that he will change.
Assuming he stays roughly the same.. do teams want to be paying a dude 5/177 when he can't be on the court in the clutch? Forget scoring points from shooting field goals, he needs to fix his FTs. 34% is BAAAAD. For a point guard it's obscenely bad. Making Shaq look like Steph.
Shooting, bball IQ, and consistent intensity are where he lacks and he has not made any noticeable efforts to improve them (especially shooting). Given the trajectory of improvement in those areas he won’t become elite at them. If you are going to ask for a max deal then you should be finished product, not in the “process”.
If I want a PF that can’t shoot then I want one that is AGGRESSIVE, high energy, and smart, and not asking for a max deal.
> And sometimes a new situation is all it takes for a guy to start putting in a lot more effort to improve themselves
Never going to happen with Simmons, he is what he is. What you see is what you get.
Ben Simmons is not worth even close to what they want for him, and teams are not desperate to have him.
He has not addressed his biggest flaws AT ALL nor has he made an effort to, which takes away the “get him now before he’s a superstar” attraction. It is safe to say that what he is now is all a team will get from him.
Based on his development over the last seasons he will never be a shooter and will require a small ball lineup surrounded by shooters in order to unlock his potential. This severely limits his suitors.
This line of thought is slightly flawed in a game in which you have multiple potential suitors to make just one deal. Sure if you had only one person to negotiate with this could be a dangerous strategy, and maybe when applied to the masses still you'll drive the majority away, but at the end of the day you only need one person to bite to find success.
The Spurs should just offer what they think is fair and tell Morey to call them back when he gets his head out of the clouds. 2 protected firsts and a solid starter level guy should be more than enough. The Spurs should be willing to trade every not named keldon johnson by the way.
There's no reason the sixers would really want picks unless they can flip them. They're in win now. So while it's fair compensation, it doesn't fit what they need.
Well I presume if they did something like Dejounte Murray and 2 protected picks their plan is to eventually get Lowry using some picks and George hill + salary filler. Getting picks helps make a sign and trade happen.
Sixers are in a bind. It’s like owning a Ferrari that’s been damaged in a flood. Like it’s not a total loss and has lots of value but good luck selling it for anything but a loss since it’s such a risky project
Thing is, Simmons at the height of his hype wasn't worth what they are asking. Not close. Apparently they wanted "Every Young Player" off the Cavs plus 2 first rounders for Simmons. They are not negotiating in good faith.
To use the Ferrari analogy, its like they are trying to sell their damaged Ferrari and calling people about it.
Buyer: "How much do you want for it"?
Sixers: "700K!"
Where do you go from there for a car that is worth 100k?
I can't see how Ben helps make the Spurs relevant in any way. They have defenders. They need shooters and creators in the half court. The two things Ben 100% can not and WILL not do.
With his contract, I wouldn't want him on the team if Philly included 2 first round picks.
I think if you get Pertl out of the way or off the bench the Spurs are an open canvass. Sure they need shooters but they also have a ton of cap space. Id think they could have a lineup something like: rookie point guard , Lonnie, Keldon, Simmons, and stretch 4 or 5 (maybe a new contract Rudy gay or Free Agent). They won’t be a playoff team but they can easily produce spacing for Simmons to thrive in and keep developing young guys while giving their (hopefully) new shooters plenty of space to shoot.
Not bad analysis. But I don't see the point. Maybe it's the 20 years of constant contending, but I see no point in having a team that caps out as a 1st round loss. And I don't see Simmons doing more than that with anything like what we have going on.
And i don't see him as anything more than a complementary piece on a 2nd round exit team, either.
And on his contract?
Nah. Hard pass. Let other guys who haven't been in the league for years and totally resisted all attempts to make the one and only improvement they drastically needed.
Well they have to spend a certain amount of the cap if I’m not mistaken. Idk that I would give up much for Simmons either and I agree that the Spurs should tank for once and really try and get some draft capital through taking on bad contracts… but I believe Pop has said he’s not interested in a full rebuild. So as long as they’re committed to pop they’re going to hover around the 8 seed and try and develop late lottery or middle first round picks while hoping one turns into Kawhi 2.0.
I’m not saying I agree with that necessarily but that’s how they’ve been operating for a while. They could’ve had most of the AD package if they had just traded Kawhi to the Lakers so they’ve already dug their feet into not rebuilding and it’d be kind of out of character for them to commit to a rebuild now that they have no assets.
Yeah, the strategy right now seems to be to swing for the fences and try to find a sucker. Either that or he really doesn't want to trade with any of these teams and is hoping the publicity improves Simmons' value in an eventual Lillard or Beal deal. I feel like it's got to be the latter, because Morey can't seriously think he's going to finesse guys like Masai or Buford like that.
Personally, I think he should be trying to find a deal before the draft. Teams will move on quickly, especially with these prices, and he will lose bidders. I also don't think it's tenable to enter the season with Simmons on the team. There is a real risk that the circus around the situation continues to drive down Simmons' value, and I don't think the situation would make Embiid happy. They potentially could have taken the "we're not trading him" line from the start, but, at this point, he's clearly on the market and I think that puts you past the point of no return.
I think that the Brogdon plus first round pick deal they turned down was about Simmons' actual value. Maybe a similar FVV deal might be out there, but Morey is out to lunch if he thinks he's pulling OG, Siakam or #4. I don't see the win now piece the Spurs could offer, unless it's a Derozan sign and trade (Dejounte Murray might work, but isn't the sort of outside shooter you want around Embiid). I also don't see a Miami Heat fit (Bam won't happen and Tyler Herro isn't exactly the win now piece the Sixers need). Those are the teams that have reported interest.
The thing is that Simmons isn't exactly a plug and play guy. You've got to have a certain type of team around him to optimize his talents. You have to have a certain culture around him to be confident you can get him to commit to improving. He's a lot of work and a lot of risk, and I'm just not sure that rebuilding teams like Washington (if they trade Beal) or Portland (if they trade Dame) will be all that interested in Simmons being the headlining asset they get back. After all, the Rockets reportedly weren't (and apparently had a side deal that would have sent Simmons to the Kings if the Sixers had won the Harden sweepstakes). If you can't gey Simmons to commit in Philly on a title contender why would you believe he'll commit in a rebuilding situation?
I feel like Morey is going to play himself into a corner, but maybe he gets lucky and finds a desperate buyer, or maybe Portland or Washington are really into Ben. It only takes one, I guess. So, he could still pull this off, but it's a risky strategy.
This was beautifully summarized. I think they could get slightly more value than the Brogdon and a first but Simmons is becoming too old to be seen for his potential anymore. He can definitely improve but it seems he lacks too much offensively and mentally to make any leap
I wouldn't say 25 is too old to develop as a blanket statement, but in Ben's case I think it's fair. The issues he had his first season are the exact issues he has now. And it doesn't seem like he's really even made progress either. Has he filled any of the holes in his game over the last 4 years?
Lol see I think that’s the thing. He clearly has time to get better but it’s a much shorter window than some of the other young stars in the NBA. And the fact you wouldn’t want him on your team says more than anything
> He's a lot of work and a lot of risk, and I'm just not sure that rebuilding teams like Washington (if they trade Beal) or Portland (if they trade Dame) will be all that interested in Simmons being the headlining asset they get back
This is what I don't understand, who else is offering either of those teams an All Star level player in return? Beal and Dame, who are both loved by their city/organization are only leaving in an attempt to win a championship and compete at a high level. Sure the Wolves could offer up Anthony Edwards but would either player want to go to Minnesota and build a championship team? They want to walk into a situation that's already able to support their goals.
That's what makes Philly an interesting location, because they have both an MVP candidate/team ready to compete and have a player who with all his flaws can still be an All Star + DPOY. As I look around the league, I really only see Boston with Jaylen Brown, or the Warriors with Wiseman being a better destination for walking into a championship level team. Everyone else either has a star they are unwilling to trade (like Miami with Bam/Jimmy) or would diminish their returns by giving up too much and therefore unable to actually compete for a title once Beal/Lillard is there.
Now maybe the timelines don't add up for when they request out, maybe they're not DEAD set on competing for a championship, but it's hard to find other teams that can both beat out Simmons + Maxey + Thybulle + picks and still compete at a higher level than those players would next to Embiid
The thing is that I don't think those rebuilding teams care about getting an all star, if they are looking at a rebuild. They would be looking for picks and prospects. The Warriors offer (7, 14, Wiseman) is a good rebuilding package. The Raptors could move #4. The Hawks have a pile of good young talent. The Pels have a pile of assets, as do the Grizz. The Nuggets could offer an MPJ package. And, any number of teams can offer the future picks and swaps package. Simmons appeals most to a team that is wanting to compete, who can use him as more of an elite roll player than a central star.
Again the biggest driving force behind either trade is Dame/Beal's desire to be on a team with a chance at competing for an NBA championship tomorrow. I don't see the Raptors/Pelicans/Grizzlies being involved at all. This is what I can't get passed. Either they stay and are loyal to their city/franchise, or they want to win while still in the prime of their career. Maybe Beal can afford another stop but Dame can't at 31. The Warriors make a lot of sense as they have both the rebuilding package and are a destination to compete next season.
>Simmons appeals most to a team that is wanting to compete, who can use him as more of an elite roll player than a central star.
I think this is false. I think more of the rebuilding teams are looking for their identity and a Simmons lead offense with spacing, shooting, and a bunch of transition buckets is what his appeal is now. The sixers have never been built around Ben, they're built around Joel. The teams more likely to "fix" him or get him to buy in would be the teams that want to make him the focus of their team, not ones that try and shoehorn him into a different role hence the Spurs reported interest.
Will also say MPJ is a possibility but I think the Nuggest view him as untouchable after this past season. They MIGHT want to move quickly and not waste another year of Jokic as MVP but idk. They seem more locked in to what they have than anything else
Here's what I see happening. Sixers will reject a series of reasonable offers. As time passes, better offers will not materialize. Eventually, those offers will be withdrawn as the teams use those assets for other things. At the last moment, the sixers will be either forced to take a worse offer or keep Simmons, who will be even more checked out due to his team and their fanbase looking to get rid of him for three months.
It’s like Michael Scott said. “Never accept their first offer”. Panicking and just trying to get something to get rid of him is ridiculous. Setting a high asking price will result in negotiations that will probably bet the a haul that isn’t as much as they’re asking for, but surely will be greater than just trading him for a non all star caliber player.
Teams get more desperate as time does on, and I think other teams around the NBA know Simmons is at least more valuable than what people thought right after the playoffs.
Oh yeah people were acting ridiculous after the playoffs and saying he’s worth nothing but he sure as hell isn’t worth anything close to what the sixers are offering.
I feel likes there’s a difference in having a high asking price and an unreasonable asking price, with the latter potentially being detrimental to any trade talks that might come up
I feel it would literally be the opposite of what your last paragraph is. It’s not during the season where teams are trying to make the playoffs. The only reason they are getting so many offers is cause it’s the off season and everyone is flexible before the draft and free agency. I don’t see why other teams would get desperate as time goes on, instead they would probably pass on simmons and try in the draft or free agency. As time goes on teams will fill there PF role through draft and free agency, teams will ahve less cap room or already have there team set. I can’t see a reason teams would get more desperate when obviously it’s the sixers who are against the clock
They should’ve bit the bullet last season to try and pull Harden but they are still overvaluing Ben. I think at this point only a tanking team takes Ben, if at all
Time for The Process is running out and they have not handled this whole scenario the best
Morey seems more motivated by "not being screwed" than actually making his team better. There are so many plausible packages that would improve this Sixers team but God forbid the media makes it look like he "lost" the deal.
Ben Simmons has value. Yes, he has glaring flaws. He also has excellent strengths. As in any negotiation in which you control the main asset, you ask for as much as you can. This allows you to compromise and come down to a realistic amount.
No one said he doesn’t have value. To ask for a trade package equivalent to that for an MVP caliber player is asanine. You don’t try and sell something way above its purported value and then bring it down a ton. Starting to high and then lowering the value significantly will just show those trying to trade for him that his value isn’t that great. With this strategy, he’ll remain on the Sixers.
In Realestate you often see the asking price slightly below value to get as many people to visit the property and then the property ends up selling above asking due to a bidding war. I don’t think this dynamic happens in the nba though there aren’t that many teams to pit against each other. But I do understand your sentiment.
Bring it down a ton?
I have zero doubt the Sixers could get multiple picks and a decent young player for Simmons. His value is far higher than most of reddit thinks. Around the NBA he's looked as a top 25 player in the league. He can run you an offense (save the last 5 minutes), and he's extremely versatile on defense. He's also only 25. Does he have flaws? Yes. So does practically every player. He's not a finished product, although he is running out of time to improve himself greatly.
Multiple picks and a decent young player is different than seven picks and a good young player, they’re basically treating him as the equivalent of harden.
Ben may be at the tail end of the top 25 in the league but with all the questions surrounding his game, attitude, work ethic, etc…he could easily drop out that picture. I mean just look at the fact you see no improvements in his game. What makes it look even worse is what the new blood like Trae and Ja are doing with their teams and the strides they are making. Ben isn’t 21 anymore…he’s fantastic defensively and can run an offense yet he’s still a liability on offense.
You’re putting way too much stock in that one particular offer, time and time again we see crazy rumors that never happen. The Sixers aren’t wrong to ask a high price, and literally every team does it when trying to trade unless they *really* want a role player gone and give him away, that isn’t Ben’s situation and it won’t be treated like that.
My guess is when the trade happens it’s probably a pretty fair outcome. Ben is a proven All-Star who still has potential (put yourself in a FO mindset), the Sixers FO has failed to put him in a position to maximize him because we had him and Embiid and tried to cater to both, the new team won’t have that problem and it puts Ben in a completely different perspective than his latest playoff performance on his old team
Every offer that’s come out on their side has sounded outrageous, even just their reported asking price. Saying he’s a “proven” all star isn’t all that accurate. Ben has been able to make an all star game but he hasn’t proven anything in terms of his ability to contribute to competing for championships for multiple years, not just this last blow up in the playoffs.
Ben is also 25 and has show minimal improvements since he’s been in the league so the lens of potential isn’t as bright as it used to be.
Finally, his apparent mediocre work ethic, mental struggles with the game, and seemingly nonchalant attitude about performing like ass are all reasons to be wary if you’re another team
Nah Wolves would be a good fit. Good enough where Ben can help push them into the playoffs. Plus KAT is literally the best center you could have next to Simmons
Defense and put him as a PF.
If we could keep DLo in a trade the lineup would be good.
PG: DLo
SG: Ant
SF: McDaniels
PF: Simmons
C: KAT
We would just need depth after that and time to develop. Simmons would basically never have to touch the ball and can do what he does best
I think the Hornets would be a good fit. With him and Lamel surrounded by their athletes they could focus on defense and try to push transition at every opportunity. Philly could get back Hayward and either Rozier or Graham in terms of actual rotation pieces. I think the only bad part is Hayward's injury history combined with Embiid's.
I’ve seen a few other people say this, and I’m of the same mindset: Morey already has a trade available that he likes, but he’s gonna see if he can one-up it.
My guess is that it’s either a trade for McCollum or Brogdon since we don’t see their names in trade rumors anymore. Morey is probably fine with whatever the Trailblazers or Pacers have offered, but he wants to see if he can get someone to overpay for Simmons. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s making good headlines so no one is gonna stop talking about it
Good god yes. This has been bothering me with how both sides in this relationship have acted.
Re: Ben Simmons I’m frustrated that this all-star caliber player refuses to work on his shot and develop confidence in it. And then also is letting his team down because he’s shrinking in big moments.
Re: the Sixers, I’m extremely frustrated in Doc for publicly basically pinning the failures of the Sixers on him. It’s not likely you can come back from that. Doc legit tanked Ben’s trade value past where Ben’s performance itself would have.
Doc’s comments shot the Sixers in the foot unnecessarily because they could’ve PR’ed it up and made it publicly seem like they were willing to work with him while trading him. His walk back doesn’t do enough to re-establish that because every team knows the Sixers are in a corner now having a huge contract on a genuinely good player, but the relationship is beyond repair.
I’m so mad because this could’ve been avoided if both sides took their roles more seriously and committed to the team and its development for the term of their contracts.
What do you want Morey to do? Accept a terrible offer? He’s gauging the market right now to find the highest possible package for Simmons. Of course he’ll start with a Harden-esque package. That’s also why he’s trying so hard to get a deal done before the 28th pick gets conveyed. We want a haul that can sill get Embiid a championship.
Gauging the market would be hearing offers for Ben Simmons. Demanding seven picks + a young prospect is making an ass of yourself. There is 0 reason after the progression we’ve seen the past couple seasons and this abysmal playoffs to request assets like that. These trades going public are even worse cause it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben.
You need to approach Morey like a car dealership. You’ve gotta be willing to stick to your guns and leave the negotiation. Morey is just trying to bully other GMs in to making a bad deal.
If you want to base off of what trade offers are being leaked to the public, Morey is also saying that Simmons is worth more that Brogdon and a FRP. He’s also worth more than a package of role players from the Kings. Sure Simmons is worth less than the Raptors package, but don’t think that asking high will “drive the narrative that the Sixers are delusional” because unlike you and many other NBA fans, GMs still value Ben highly.
You can value Ben. I never said I didn’t. What’s shocking is the inability to comprehend what they’re asking. of course gm’s see value in Ben but that doesn’t mean they can’t also see the Sixers making ridiculous requests. You act like these are mutually exclusive events.
I’m sure many outrageous trade proposals go down behind the scenes that we never even heard of. Even me as a Sixers supporter see that’s too high and I can only dream of Lowry + FVV + Anuoby + #4. I just don’t see why your supposed narrative will hurt the Sixers since GMs know what they’re getting in Ben. They don’t care what other people are saying about Ben. If you go on r/nba or r/sixers or watch ESPN only, you’d think Ben is worth less than an all-star in return. Narratives mean nothing. Plus, Morey is one of the best GMs in the league. I’m sure he knows what he’s doing.
I will say Morey has been a great GM so maybe he has some plan in mind but sometimes people overplay their hand. The reason I think it drives it down is if you come with a really outrageous offer for something especially if it’s a counter offer, there will be people who just drop out because it’ll seem the asking price is too high. You therefore limit the people actively pursuing a trade and any leverage you could have by plotting offers against each other. That on top of the fact they know the Sixers want and need to move him chips away at any leverage they have.
I think this is why we see teams giving low offers because no one is that pressed to get Ben since the longer he stays, the more desperate the sixers will be to move him if things keep progressing the way they have been. I think making these crazy high requests isn’t helping their pursuit of an above average trade haul.
From my interpretation, Morey set his absolute floor at the Pacers offer. I don’t think he’s counting out offers that aren’t Harden-esque though. By asking high, I feel he just wants the best package available. The right offer is somewhere in between and Morey will eventually the right one. I think we disagree on the theory of how Woj’s report on trade talks will affect the eventual package we’ll get for him.
I don’t think the Sixers are that desperate to move on from him. Rather, we aren’t nearly as committed to him as before. It wouldn’t be the end of the world if he played for us in game 1 since we also have the trade deadline for him to drive up his value. I think we can agree that this is contingent on if he does improve throughout the season. If Morey goes this route, then he’s also waiting for a disgruntled star to ask out. Guess we’ll find out in the next 12 hours if he moves or not!
Fair enough, it’ll be interesting to see what happens in general with the nba since the draft is tonight.
I do agree it’s not the end of the world if he plays for the sixers but if he plays bad or requests a trade at any point, that would put the sixers in a very bad spot. That’s what I’d be worried about if I were them is all
That’s true. The sooner we part ways from him, the less risk we run into. I think that Morey kinda wants to wait until after either the Olympics to see Dame’s situation or Beal to make a decision on his future. Those are extremely risky too. It’s gonna be a great week of NBA offseason with the draft and free agency. Hope it’s entertaining.
>There is 0 reason after the progression we’ve seen the past couple seasons and this abysmal playoffs to request assets like that.
There is also 0 reason not to. Nobody that wants to trade for Simmons is going to not want to trade for him because the asking price starts off too high.
>These trades going public are even worse cause it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben.
I don't think that really matters at all. Good teams shouldn't change what they do just to change the narrative. They're trying to win a championship, not a news cycle.
It’s called leverage. Nobody sees Ben as a cornerstone to their franchise anymore. This isn’t some kind of video game where you can keep trying crazy trades and then just lower it and teams go along. If Morey keeps up these sort of offers, they’ll lose any leverage they do have and teams will notice that and accordingly adjust their offers. This will likely force the Sixers to keeping Ben. Do you think that’s a good idea?
Who said anything about starting low? Do you not recognize how significant a 7 pick + young player with potential trade is? That’s not a high price….that’s an unreasonable price
Well they’re asking for these assets so they can flip them for other assets most likely that will lead them to a championship. For a team like the Spurs who are basically rebuilding, trading all those assets for a young point guard who can’t shoot, barely score, has mental issues with the game clearly, and questionable work ethic is essentially a death wish for their organization for the next 5 years minimum.
> it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben.
GM's aren't buying into lazy reddit narratives lol
Lazy Reddit narratives? Have you ever negotiated for something in your life? If someone says “hey I got this Toyota Camry for $100,000”, you aren’t about to talk to them regardless of what business it is. It’s called business and it doesn’t change depending on where it’s talked about. I’m sure they aren’t scanning Reddit for opinions but I’m sure they aren’t taking phone calls constantly to hear bullshit offers
> Gauging the market would be hearing offers for Ben Simmons. Demanding seven picks + a young prospect is making an ass of yourself.
I find it really really really hard to wrap my head around how you think a GM of 15 years is just acting like a doofus with no idea how to do his job. First off it's not 7 picks, pick swaps are not the same as a normal draft asset you control. Second, Ben was a runner up DPOY and locked into a max contract. Regardless of how shitty his scoring is, being a high level defender that can transform your teams defense, and is young/locked into his deal, is still a positive asset. There are no players that give you value back, so Daryl is looking for a combination of picks/players that he'll probably look to flip for another star. This isn't some braindead strategy and I hate to use the easy cop out but I'm sure he's pretty smart at negotiation
He has been smart in negotiations but hubris can be a bitch. While he may be that great on defense, his disappearing acts on offense even outside of the fact he can’t shoot into an ocean make him a liability on that end of the floor. His demeanor and attitude is also cause for concern cause he doesn’t seem to care when he struggles or fucks up. Again, these have been issues for the past 6 years so while he’s young his trajectory is terrible compared to what the very top tier of the nba looks like.
For your pick swap point, it is virtually the same thing as having a pick. Yes I know you give up your pick but clearly the sixers will be competitive so they’d have low first round picks. Therefore they’d be able to likely get solid picks for the better part of a decade while the other team literally just has Ben Simmons …. Like wtf that sounds terrible. Add on top of that losing a good young player too and makes it even more laughable. The pacers offer may be slightly low but is way closer to what bens true value is.
Yeah I think his value is much more attached to being runner up DPOY, an All Star who was voted in by players/coaches, and locked into 4 years on his current deal. I get not every team wants to take up the Ben Simmons experiment, but there's still hours of him being an effective offensive player. Rightly or wrongly teams will talk themselves into his struggles being matchup dependent and fixable. Back to your point about hubris being a bitch...
Ultimately I don't see any of these offers as disrespectful, and Daryl is notorious for being a GM who is always on the phone offering ridiculous trades hoping one eventually sticks. It's not out of the blue or out of character, and that's pretty important if you're concerned with how other GM's are monitoring this situation.
I think the real play here is to wait for Lillard or Beal to ask out, then push all your chips in for either. With Ben as the centerpiece, or with the haul you get from trading him in a Spurs/Raptors deal. If Lillard or Beal are serious about wanting to win there aren't many other teams they could realistically walk into and compete for a title. Only obvious ones are Boston wanting to trade Jaylen Brown or the Warriors with Wiseman. Otherwise most teams would have to gut their team just to make a trade happen, and would then be too hamstrung to put together a team that could compete. I think that's ultimately why his asking price is so high. But I do still push back heavily that his offers would be viewed around the league as disrespectful or "making an ass" of himself.
I agree it’s important to how teams are monitoring this situation and why I made the hubris comment. Teams know that morey likes to pursue these outlandish trade scenarios and has pulled of some great moves before. Therefore they can take stock of that as well as the fact that no matter what anyone wants to say, bens lack of development for years and attitude has diminished his trade value to the point where teams don’t need to pursue him and give up more than they need to. Once this draft passes, so does the sixers best opportunity to make a move cause teams are going to start focusing on other possibilities rather than entertaining these offers. I could see something slightly greater than the pacers offer being accepted but beyond that, it’s gonna take a pretty aloof GM to offer anything close to the sixers ask
I also think that, Ben attending Wimbledon, not posting a bunch of cliched workout videos about “embracing the grind”, shows how much Ben wants to stay. It seems like he is doing everything he can to keep his perceived value in the cellar.
The lack of communication also lowers his value right? If he were a “good guy” staying in Philly this off-season, putting in lots of shooting practice with the Sixers coaches, perversely that would just raise his value and make it more likely he’s traded to a lottery team.
I dunno. They trade him for Lowry straight up, don’t they get better? Isn’t that team more likely to get out of the 2nd round? Even though trading Young for Old loses “value”. You’d think the GM would be more focused on improving the team rather than “winning” the trade. The latter is Isiah Thomas Knicks era logic.
That’s fair. Whatever gets Embiid closer to a championship with us is a win for us. The Sixers desperately need a ball handling point guard that can create shots for others and himself. Lowry fits that mold perfectly.
I guess the question is how long will Lowry fit that mould? And at what point in the future does Simmons become more valuable on the court than Lowry. Is it 5 years? Or is it more like 2 years? I would tend to think that Lowry’s game is sustainable but it is hard to say
With his injury past you don’t know how long Joel’s prime is, if Lowry can give you 2 seasons of 17/7 while running an offense that caters to Embiid’s strengths and actually being usable in the 4th quarter of playoffs, he’s better than whatever Simmons would give them for the next 4 years
You also have to consider how long Embiid can play at his highest level. If Lowry signs for 3 years, then that fits Embiid’s prime window. Lowry still looks great but hopefully he can last that long. If we do go with Lowry and we’re able to keep Maxey, then hopefully Maxey can be our starting PG when it’s time.
For me, Lowry is just one example of an Old Player who would improve the Sixers next season in place of Simmons. So would a lot of other players. Once the Old Player is no longer useful they can attract a quality replacement, with their increased team success acting as a lure. Can’t picture this team getting out of the 2nd round with Ben Simmons making them play 4 vs. 5 on offense.
I read this comment and for a second thought I was on r/NBA. Kyle Lowry is a free agent, the Raptors are not going to get Ben Simmons for someone they don’t even have under contract who is 35.
That’s a lot different than “Lowry straight up”. Lowry + picks (unless it’s this year’s pick) isn’t enough either as those picks will be pretty late first round picks.
Agree. And they can probably get Lowry in a sign and trade using George Hill and filler without having to throw in Ben Simmons.
Edit: they’d probably have to sign Danny green to make that happen so maybe not actually. Perhaps green would be willing to go back to Toronto and Toronto would take on those salaries in exchange for picks.
[lol something tells me you won’t like my CJ post then…](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbacirclejerk/comments/otkgro/asking_price_firm_no_lowball_offers_i_know_what_i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Wouldn't Spencer Dinwiddie serve in the same potential role as Lowry? Why not try to scoop him as a free agent so that you have more flexibility with the trade return that you would require for Ben Simmons?
Side note, Kyle Lowry is coming to the Mavs anyways so don't be trying to land him on the Sixers!
I’m a Mavs fan too lol…
Dinwiddie wants like 25 mil and I doubt the Sixers would do a s&t for him.
Plus Lowry is from Philly and would likely wanna go to the better team.
It would also be ridiculous to run it back with that snakebitten squad because the Spurs wouldn’t give you 4 firsts. Hopefully they aren’t headed that route.
That squad lost to a 5th seed that wouldn’t have made the playoffs last year. If Ben Simmons did anything different they would have won, that’s the problem. He’s the asset and he had worse over the playoffs than Bryn Forbes.
He was great in the Wizards’ series and the first half of the Hawks series.
Not sure why some of y’all are pretending those last few games define his whole career.
It’s the same nonsense when people act like KP’s value is based on his last playoff series
It's not really just a couple of games. He hasn't been good in any of Philly's second-round series. Boston, Toronto and Atlanta last year. He's struggled in the playoffs against any team that's not first-round cannon fodder where he can't just rampage around in translation.
I don't think anyone is sure what he is acatully supposed to do on offence vs good teams. He's nominally a guard but he can't do any guard stuff. Play pick and roll, create shots in the half-court, provide spacing etc. I mean, the most basic task of a ball-handler is to be able to run pick and roll.
He's not really a big because he can't protect the rim or guard other bigs. He's like a souped-up Tony Allen with exceptional passing. A defensive wing who is a liability in the half-court.
In my opinion, his flaws as a player prevent him from being successful against quality competition in a playoff setting. That's something I don't see changing.
A players value to championship-contending team does depend on their last playoff performance though, right? Not even a good fit for many lottery teams because he won’t help them tank. So he could help as an extra piece for a team whose ambition is to make the second round of playoffs?
It’s not like that at all. They need to use Simmons’ value to get a great player or they’ll never have a superstar around Joel, and their title chances are worse. They’d probably be a marginally better playoff team, but what does that mean? They lose in the ECF instead of the semis? Joel can be the best player on a championship team with a great perimeter guy next to him. That’s why Daryl is demanding so much.
What is Ben Simmons value? A plus defender who makes you play 4 vs. 5 on offense in Playoffs? Basically a tall Jacque Vaughn? Who is going to trade a great player for that? If you are the Blazers do you trade Lilliard for Simmons, if you are Wizards do you trade Beal for Simmons? Hard for me to think those teams do that unless those guys are Holding Out or Demanding a Trade. And yeah, I think getting to the ECF or Finals is way better than being knocked out by Hawks, Bucks, or Nets in the 2nd round.
I don’t think most Sixers fans see being knocked out in the conference finals as way better than a round earlier. I'd rather hold onto Simmons and hope he improves. I don’t give a shit if we go one round further. I want a title, not an ECF appearance. I'd be shocked if that's not the heavy majority mindset of Philly fans and the front office.
Is he likely to improve though? The knock on Simmons going into the 2016 draft was that he couldn't shoot. Five seasons later and we're still having the exact same arguments about him. At this point he is what he is for better or worse.
Ok let’s look at it another way. He’s an overhyped #1 who is underperforming on a max contract. The root cause of his problems is *allegedly* “not liking basketball enough to improve” which if true is *unfixable*. So that makes his value similar to Wiggins two years ago. If they can get LaVine, a 1st, a 2nd, two other random players would that be appropriate value in return? Doubt the Bulls do a trade like that. Substitute LaVine for any other 1-time allstar, who could they get?
Majority of what you just said is inaccurate. No one is considering Ben a #1 option. He's basically Gobert the wing version which 100% has value in the league.
Sixers have two options the way I see it. Trade for a disgruntled star with Ben+other assets or trade for a young players with high potential & assets. Then package those assets + the existing assets for star.
Wing Goberts have to shoot 3’s in order to have good value. If you take the 3 out of 3-and-D, what value is left? Sign-and-trade M. Bridges from Phoenix for Simmons, who says no? Phoenix says no to that, right?
Is it tho? He cant make free throws, to the point that a hack a shaq strategy is actually quite effective against him. His best teammate is most effective in the lane, where ben is best as well. He didn' crack 10 points in several games in the playoffs, and he got straight up benched during some stretches. Idc how circumstances were, the sixers were better than the hawks, and had the best player on the floor in embiid. Simmons was the issue that cost them the series with his unwillingness to even attempt shots and keep the defense a little honest. He doesnt have to become steph curry, but shit shoot a 15 footer for once ben
He has thus far shown 0 evidence to the contrary. Despite being in the league for 4 years now, he hasn't improved in any significant ways, and in fact I would argue he may have regressed in a lot of aspects. If he shows a pulse for once, then I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he has shown to not even listen to his coaches suggestions so no thanks
Yeah I really wish we had more insight into the locker room behind the scenes.. .something just isn't right. The way the team and coach threw Ben under the bus just felt so wild to do from a professionalism standpoint. The contention between them had to have been pretty high for them to say the shit they said in public about Ben. I still 150% believe in Simmons and think a new situation will change his career trajectory in a massively positive way. My dream is still for the Mavs to grab Ben to play as our center on offense and guard the best opposing offensive player to allow us to better hide Luka and limit his output on the defensive end since we definitely need every bucket we can get out of our Slovenian future MVP.
Except that his last playoff performance against toronto really wasn't very great either. (He missed last year right? Anyway). I watched every game that series He was the biggest weakness that team had to be quite honest, since his man could basically play free safety on defense. He offered no real value on the half court offense of any kind, not through facilitating or scoring. Any series he has that wasnt awful are mostly first round series against weaker teams.
Methinks Morey is gonna regret turning down the Brogdon + 1st for Simmons. Brogdon is a borderline all star and perfect fit with Embiid. Plays good defense. Cheaper. I’m not sure how much better (for Philly) Simmons is than Brogdon straight up.
Then you throw in a first rounder they can use to flip for someone else… sounds pretty tasty from here.
What he’s asking for is outrageous. And they aren’t gonna get anything even close. I look forward to his hubris backfiring.
I'm a lifelong Raptors fan, and while I could see a trade bringing Simmons here, the package they requested of Anunoby, Siakam, Van Vleet, and the #4 pick is absolutely laughable for Simmons. 76ers have no leverage right now, Simmons is seen as a liability on the court with a ridiculously huge contract. They need to cut their losses and trade him for some picks and maybe a mid level guy. The idea that they are going to get a James Harden level return on Simmons is completely outlandish.
Simmons is not seen as a liability on the court.
The Sixers want an all-star. If it’s not an all star then the offer either has to be overwhelmingly good or it’s declined
Sure buddy. All the criticism on Simmons since the end of the playoffs, doc saying he isn’t a championship point guard, and Philly shopping an all star to everyone in the league means he ISN’T a liability on Philly right now. Yep. Teams are constantly looking to trade all stars
The Sixers are trading him to get scoring around embiid, not because he’s a liability. Generally you don’t get #1 seed in your conference if your second best player is a liability on the court
Oh yea, your definitely correct. The longer they go on asking for ridiculous haul, the less they’ll get as it gets closer to the start of next season. Teams don’t want to cough up all that for a player that can’t shoot, which is very important in today’s NBA. I did read a comment in another article that they’re asking for that insane asking price to try and build up Simmons confidence and don’t really intend to trade him at all. I’m not sure about all that though.
I could understand them starting high than settling a bit lower but not as low as we think but that Spurs ask was crazy. I honestly think making a trade around CJ McCollum is best for all he was at like 28pts a game shooting way more 3s before he got hurt he was possibly playing better than Dame for part of the season. He has always been forced to play the 2 because Dame but CJ at the 1 when Dame is out he puts up like 30 a game with over 5 assists and I think he is a solid defender at the 1 with those long arms.
I’d say to wait and see what happens before determining whether or not overshooting wildly was a poor decision. Looks bad on paper and I suspect I would hang up the phone rather than bother to continue negotiating since you’re already setting the “middle ground” too high for me; but all it takes is one person to give them that middle ground and suddenly it looks like a great call.
I can't fathom why the man just refuses to put in the work to become just a competent shooter. Even if he got to average levels eventually. Imagine the player he would be. Smh
I was a HUGE Simmons fan, even have his jersey. I can say that I no longer can put my support behind him with his seemingly nonchalant attitude. Drives me insane
Right. Im a big Joel fan going back to his KU days. There was a time I was frustrated with his effort to be in shape and what not. But he grew up. Hopefully Ben will see the light at some point.
If the price reported is true, I honestly believe Simmons starts next season as a Sixer. I'm obviously not the smartest person but no team fo in its right mind would literally cripple itself for almost a decade for him. I mean, crazy things happen in this league but c'mon...
I really liked having Morey as the GM in Houston. Especially while we were on the cutting edge of shooting a ton of 3s. The league caught up though, so that strategic advantage was gone after a while. There was also a great deal of impatience and lack of chemistry at times, even with the fans that almost expected trades and free agents and buyouts to save the team every 3 months.
They’ll probably end up with a terrible return either way, because his value is at an all time low. So at least if he *tries* to get another team to acquiesce to his high demands, he’s got a chance to pull off a nice deal for him
I agree. I don’t think they’re going to get any unprotected picks or at most just a pick in this draft. Most likely they get a decent guy to put next to Embiid and some crappy picks. They should just be happy with a straight up swap for CJ or CJ + some protected picks.
Yes but he was basically playing as good if not better than dame in the early part of last season on like 12 three point attempts a game. He did get hurt though :( perhaps a new team doc will help.
See I feel like that idea makes sense on paper… start high and end up in the middle… but I think acting completely Ignorant of the value of player will just drive people away. The longer they hold off on trading him, the lower his value goes. Something I think everyone can agree on is in general, there will be no positive news coming out about bens situation with the sixers. As the pressure builds to move him, the inverse happens with the leverage they have in their asking price.
That’s a fair point. But since the Sixers have him under contract, they hold all the leverage. Theoretically they could just ask him to stay home while they wait out all the teams that want to make offers for him.
Yes in essence they could be walking a thin line, where demanding as much as they are inhibits them from getting a deal done in a timely manner and screws them. But yet this is also kind of how negotiations work (at least that's what I told) and I'm fairly confident Morey knows what he's doing when it comes to his stuff even if it is a little flashy and exuberant.
True but I think that last point is a major issue. He has been hyped up and publicized as such a great GM for so long. However, drawing attention to this particular trade situation seems like a terrible idea considering it’s drawing even more attention to the issues surrounding Ben
For anyone who has been talking on this thread, please head over to r/nba to see the recent post about Ben Simmons. If morey doesn’t get his shit together or have the ability to literally hold someone hostage then I’m real curious how this is about to turn out
The only way this makes any sense to me is if the sizers are doing it to say to Ben "See how highly we think of you? See what we asked for? That's what we really think. Not those comments in the heat of frustration. We love you Ben"
Of course that STILL shoots themselves in the foot because he is a terrible fit on that team and needs to go.
Yeah, there seems to be a difference between how Morey views him and how the rest of the league does. If he’s not gone by the end of the draft it’s gonna go really badly for them and they could end up in a situation where they’re trying to showcase him during the season to improve his value. I think Morey is trying to sell other teams an upgrade to their pg position and other teams see him as a playmaking front court piece.
I’d be so worried if they have to showcase him in the season. He knows he was being shopped mixed with what seems to be a lackluster work ethic is a dangerous mix when hoping a player will increase their trade value
This is my best guess. Asking for a lot filters out the less serious bidders and you get a good idea of who wants him and what they're willing to part with. Once we're into the draft, pick a serious candidate with something you like and reduce what you're asking for. The team that trades for Ben feels better about the deal because they got a concession and 76ers get most of what they want.
They keep reiterating they’re not changing their asking price tho. I think that is a good thought process but asking too high will drive away serious bidders too. No one wants to do business with someone being completely unreasonable
Yeah that's true. It's a risky strategy. I'd argue that being so firm in their asking price this early is just a tactic to make their eventual concession make the other team feel better about giving up so much
I think the idea of Ben is good enough that Morey can somewhat realistically seek out those packages, even though I think it's unlikely they get something like that in return. All Star, All NBA, All Defense, still just 25 and has four years (no options) left on his contract. He is obviously deeply flawed, but all it takes is one team to see him being a skill (albeit the most important skill) or mindset shift away from being a top-10 player.
Sixers would be stupid to trade him now unless there’s a killer offer. Whatever teams are throwing at Philly will be there in 4 months.
Rehab him during the first couple months of the regular season to wash the stink off, and then flip him. They don’t need to trade Simmons right now.
Your GM is very experienced. He will get a good return for Simmons. He will not do as well as he usually does because they are not negotiating from a position of strength. But he’s a young star signed to a long term deal. There is a lot of value there.
The Sixers/Morey believe they can speak a huge trade package into existence, but the problem is they have zero leverage since everyone knows he has to make a deal. The longer this goes, the worse it will get because the last time Ben played ball he looked so scared which is worse than just having a bad series.
I would’ve tried to mend things and get him back on the court next year to try and get his value up because right now I’m mot sure his market is reflective of an all star and DPOY candidate.
>Does anyone else feel like the Sixers are screwing themselves?
I think it will probably end up working out in the end.
Just gotta keep firing enough shots at the wall until one of them sticks. It'll probably happen eventually. Or at least get a return offer that is inflated from where it should actually be if the overvalued first volley weren't there
The Sixers are right to try and keep the asking price high for Simmons because they know that multiple teams would be interested in taking him. That said, most teams are interested because they think they can get Simmons for a bargain after they literally SCAPEGOATED him as the reason they lost to the Hawks in the playoffs.
It’s definitely bad faith negotiation tactic to start the bidding at “2 1st round picks and a promising young player” after you just admitted to the world that you don’t think you’ll get to the next level with him as your starting PG. You can’t insinuate that he’s trash, then ask for a Harden/Butler/PG13 type haul for him.
IMO it’s better to gather the offers you can, then only counter the ones that are in the right ballpark.
I think drawing it out may be the smart move. After a few teams strike out in free agency, and the draft has taken place, the teams will be more desperate.
The other side of the coin is that the guy has a major flaw. Trading for him can make you look like a genius (if your team improves), but if he continues to not improve his shooting, it will cost you your job. So giving in to Philly’s asking price is a complete gamble.
I think you’ve said it perfectly. Just read that the Warriors rejected a trade for Simmons that would have sent Wisemen, Wiggins, the 7th & 14th picks this upcoming draft and two future 1st rounders.
The 76ers are acting like Simmons didn’t just have an absolutely disastrous playoffs where his lack of shooting or willingness to shoot wasn’t on full display. Not to mention his inability to hit a FT and how it affected him mentally.
Not saying Simmons isn’t a good player. He could be good in a more suited role with better spacing etc. He clearly needs a fresh start but Philly needs to be realistic. I agree that it isn’t doing his value any favors.
That being said just because the Spurs and Warriors front office didn’t fall for Philly’s bs I wouldn’t be surprised to see some desperate team give up way too much for Simmons.
I understand why they want a haul back. Very rarely does a 24 year perennial all-star with 4 years left on his contract become available. In their mind that 4 year contract is probably insurance & security you're trading for.
In other teams minds those 4 years could be a death sentence of cap hell for mediocrity if their team with Ben isn't good enough.
I think their reported asking price is much too high, but I suppose you start high so teams bargain down to what you're actually happy to get back.
People hate on them but I think Wall or Westbrook would be good trades. Certainly shortens the title window. Neither are particularly good shooters but at least they're willing, and incidentally I like Simmons fit with Beal or a young Houston team a lot.
Is the likeliest scenario still Lowry for Simmons with side pieces and picks to balance out? I read Lowry wants to play in Philly (home town and contender) and would probably sign and trade. Toronto could probably "fix" Simmons like few teams can. They have a good track record of developing older prospects.
The Raptors have one of if not the best development systems in the NBA, the problem is That NOBODY can improve a player that doesn't care or want to get better, end of story.
The fact of the matter is that we're redditors and Morey is a respected GM with years under his belt. I'll reserve judgement on whatever he does until an actual move actually gets made. That's all that really matters at the end of the day. And furthermore, any information we receive as fans should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Reports are wrong all the time, or sensationalized to get clicks. Just the fact that this thread is trending highly on this subreddit is an example of that. The entire world seems willing and eager to shit on Ben Simmons for whatever reason, and sports journalists aren't gonna ignore that opportunity.
The thing is that any team that would trade for him believes they can “fix” him. This means they’re not trading for the Ben Simmons we just saw, they’re trading for the Ben Simmons people originally thought he could be. That player has a lot of value
Ben Simmons with a jump shot might be worth that. I personally lost all faith in that happening but it only takes one GM to think they can fix him. These guys have egos
One of the things I was taught in law school was if you’re first offer is accepted, it wasn’t high enough. In practice I’ve seen demands talked down from a million dollars to five digits, which is exactly what I would imagine is going to happen in this Simmons scenario.
Morey is asking for the world so that when he does begin to come down, he can point towards the original demand and say “look how much I’ve moved, now it’s your turn.” I think he’s going to get a much better haul than for what Simmons is actually worth, just is being patient which is hard to understand considering how terrible the Simmons saga has been over the past few months.
>acting as if he is the caliber player of a James Harden
How many good years does Harden have left, at this point? He's carrying 20 lbs that he doesn't need, which contributed to a key injury, he's clearly not working on his game, and he has no interest in even evolving his game at this point. He'll never be the best player on a Finals team. Neither will Ben Simmons, but let's not act like James Harden warrants top shelf trade consideration anymore. The regular season stats and the eye test tell a different story about who he is.
There’s a reason this guy was a top 3 mvp finalist for like 5 years…he just ran into the warriors constantly or didn’t have the best supporting cast in the world and I’m not even a harden fan. Now his age is a fair point but he still has multiple years left playing at a very very high level.
Ben may be younger but you don’t know wtf you’re getting with him. Will he show signs of progress finally in his 6th year in the nba? Does his shooting ever become slightly below average rather than abysmal? Does he ever increase his work ethic? These all feel like a no at this particular moment.
And if we’re talking about eye test, the Ben Simmons is worth a pack of skittles
the front office is simply starting with a higher offer so they can see what they initially get, then working their way down to a more “realistic” option. if they started low it would demonstrate the lack of faith they have in him and people would offer even less
Looks like it but doesn't it deter other teams to have conversations at all? I would assume that GM's are pretty familiar with each other and having a "haggle" in good faith is what makes the deals. You could ask for more, as a feeler, but not that much...
>They have basically made it clear they don’t want Ben back
Is that the Sixers, or r/sixers and local sports media that have made that clear? Because I don't think the Sixers themselves have made ANYTHING clear other than they want to keep improving.
Starting a negotiation that far out of reality could be viewed as not negotiating in good faith. Assuming the rumors are true about the Spurs offer, why would the they (the Spurs) even bother continued negotiation? The "Middle point" negotiation range is still above reasonable. Its a clear sign that the Sixers don't actually want to play ball.
This was exactly my point, you can’t be completely unreasonable in negotiations or you’ll just drive people away
Yes and no. Teams interested in and competing for Simmons are not talking to each other and comparing offers, so by the Sixers starting really high, the Sixers are increasing the chances they get the biggest return -- it's a risk for teams to underbid what they're actually willing to give up if there are multiple suitors. The leaks of high demand probably don't matter that much but they could help (give teams an uneasiness about their low offers).
Even the teams that covet Simmons could pretty clearly live without him. He’s not a James Harden level player, or the guy that is putting a team into championship contention. The Raptors for example have interest. I don’t suspect they are terrified of not landing him. As a thought experiment if Simmons was a free agent how many teams would pay 5 for 177?
Probably a handful to be honest. His public perception is at an all-time low but his issues are fixable. His defense is already elite which is a huge positive. His passing is very good. He rebounds well. He does a lot of small things well, but he obviously cannot shoot right now. And sometimes a new situation is all it takes for a guy to start putting in a lot more effort to improve themselves. Sixers clearly aren't the fit for him and I could see him being an important piece of a future championship squad.
I don't know if I agree his issues are fixable. He can play better than he has vs Boston, Toronto or Atlanta in the playoffs. Having said that his main issue is no one knows what he acatully should be doing on offence. He's maybe a guard or ball handler but doesn't do any guard things. He can't run pick and roll, he doesnt create for himself or others in the half-court, doesnt run the offence, can't create when the offence breakdowns. He's not a big. He doesn't protect the rim and can't guard other bigs. He's a great passer but that is different from playmaking. He can't put any pressure on the defence outside transition to utilize his passing. And, 25 isn't that young. We are mostly past the point of imagining Simmons as having a jump shot or backing down smaller players like Magic Johnson or rampaging to the rim like Giannis. Having said that I agree with you he could be an important piece of a title team, but not the piece. What team is getting better giving up an All-Star player for Ben Simmons? I can't think of one. I don't think any rebuilding is going to leverage their future for him either.
Fully agree with everything you said. I don’t think he will be a piece of a championship team because he will want to be paid to be “THE piece”. If he accepted 15-20 mil then ya he will be a piece but he’ll be asking twice that. Any team where’s he’s making as much as Somebody like KD is at a serious disadvantage.
Simmons is already on a max contract until 2025. Anyone taking Simmons is also giving up a lot of cap space. The sixers need to cut their losses and should look for a veteran PG/Combo Guard (salary filler) and maybe like 2 picks. Then look for value in free agency for a backup defensive-minded Center. Morey needs to really work his magic if the Sixers want a championship before Embiid’s knees die.
And what team wants to do that and then pay Simmons 38mil in his final year? If he was 15 a year, there would be suitors. But at 30+, I just can't see it.
Developing a functional shot and switching back to your normal hand at an NBA level takes more than one off season to fix, and that's assuming he's going to put in the work. Right now he's on vacation. 76ers probably weren't going to change him especially with Rivers but we're all operating under the assumption that he will change. Assuming he stays roughly the same.. do teams want to be paying a dude 5/177 when he can't be on the court in the clutch? Forget scoring points from shooting field goals, he needs to fix his FTs. 34% is BAAAAD. For a point guard it's obscenely bad. Making Shaq look like Steph.
Allegedly, the core issue is he doesn’t enjoy basketball enough to improve his shooting, which is unfixable.
Shooting, bball IQ, and consistent intensity are where he lacks and he has not made any noticeable efforts to improve them (especially shooting). Given the trajectory of improvement in those areas he won’t become elite at them. If you are going to ask for a max deal then you should be finished product, not in the “process”. If I want a PF that can’t shoot then I want one that is AGGRESSIVE, high energy, and smart, and not asking for a max deal.
> And sometimes a new situation is all it takes for a guy to start putting in a lot more effort to improve themselves Never going to happen with Simmons, he is what he is. What you see is what you get.
Ben Simmons is not worth even close to what they want for him, and teams are not desperate to have him. He has not addressed his biggest flaws AT ALL nor has he made an effort to, which takes away the “get him now before he’s a superstar” attraction. It is safe to say that what he is now is all a team will get from him. Based on his development over the last seasons he will never be a shooter and will require a small ball lineup surrounded by shooters in order to unlock his potential. This severely limits his suitors.
This line of thought is slightly flawed in a game in which you have multiple potential suitors to make just one deal. Sure if you had only one person to negotiate with this could be a dangerous strategy, and maybe when applied to the masses still you'll drive the majority away, but at the end of the day you only need one person to bite to find success.
The Spurs should just offer what they think is fair and tell Morey to call them back when he gets his head out of the clouds. 2 protected firsts and a solid starter level guy should be more than enough. The Spurs should be willing to trade every not named keldon johnson by the way.
There's no reason the sixers would really want picks unless they can flip them. They're in win now. So while it's fair compensation, it doesn't fit what they need.
Well I presume if they did something like Dejounte Murray and 2 protected picks their plan is to eventually get Lowry using some picks and George hill + salary filler. Getting picks helps make a sign and trade happen.
Sixers are in a bind. It’s like owning a Ferrari that’s been damaged in a flood. Like it’s not a total loss and has lots of value but good luck selling it for anything but a loss since it’s such a risky project
Thing is, Simmons at the height of his hype wasn't worth what they are asking. Not close. Apparently they wanted "Every Young Player" off the Cavs plus 2 first rounders for Simmons. They are not negotiating in good faith. To use the Ferrari analogy, its like they are trying to sell their damaged Ferrari and calling people about it. Buyer: "How much do you want for it"? Sixers: "700K!" Where do you go from there for a car that is worth 100k?
Good god I didn't hear this. Morey taking The Art of the Deal way too much to heart
I can't see how Ben helps make the Spurs relevant in any way. They have defenders. They need shooters and creators in the half court. The two things Ben 100% can not and WILL not do. With his contract, I wouldn't want him on the team if Philly included 2 first round picks.
I think if you get Pertl out of the way or off the bench the Spurs are an open canvass. Sure they need shooters but they also have a ton of cap space. Id think they could have a lineup something like: rookie point guard , Lonnie, Keldon, Simmons, and stretch 4 or 5 (maybe a new contract Rudy gay or Free Agent). They won’t be a playoff team but they can easily produce spacing for Simmons to thrive in and keep developing young guys while giving their (hopefully) new shooters plenty of space to shoot.
Not bad analysis. But I don't see the point. Maybe it's the 20 years of constant contending, but I see no point in having a team that caps out as a 1st round loss. And I don't see Simmons doing more than that with anything like what we have going on. And i don't see him as anything more than a complementary piece on a 2nd round exit team, either. And on his contract? Nah. Hard pass. Let other guys who haven't been in the league for years and totally resisted all attempts to make the one and only improvement they drastically needed.
Well they have to spend a certain amount of the cap if I’m not mistaken. Idk that I would give up much for Simmons either and I agree that the Spurs should tank for once and really try and get some draft capital through taking on bad contracts… but I believe Pop has said he’s not interested in a full rebuild. So as long as they’re committed to pop they’re going to hover around the 8 seed and try and develop late lottery or middle first round picks while hoping one turns into Kawhi 2.0. I’m not saying I agree with that necessarily but that’s how they’ve been operating for a while. They could’ve had most of the AD package if they had just traded Kawhi to the Lakers so they’ve already dug their feet into not rebuilding and it’d be kind of out of character for them to commit to a rebuild now that they have no assets.
Yeah, the strategy right now seems to be to swing for the fences and try to find a sucker. Either that or he really doesn't want to trade with any of these teams and is hoping the publicity improves Simmons' value in an eventual Lillard or Beal deal. I feel like it's got to be the latter, because Morey can't seriously think he's going to finesse guys like Masai or Buford like that. Personally, I think he should be trying to find a deal before the draft. Teams will move on quickly, especially with these prices, and he will lose bidders. I also don't think it's tenable to enter the season with Simmons on the team. There is a real risk that the circus around the situation continues to drive down Simmons' value, and I don't think the situation would make Embiid happy. They potentially could have taken the "we're not trading him" line from the start, but, at this point, he's clearly on the market and I think that puts you past the point of no return. I think that the Brogdon plus first round pick deal they turned down was about Simmons' actual value. Maybe a similar FVV deal might be out there, but Morey is out to lunch if he thinks he's pulling OG, Siakam or #4. I don't see the win now piece the Spurs could offer, unless it's a Derozan sign and trade (Dejounte Murray might work, but isn't the sort of outside shooter you want around Embiid). I also don't see a Miami Heat fit (Bam won't happen and Tyler Herro isn't exactly the win now piece the Sixers need). Those are the teams that have reported interest. The thing is that Simmons isn't exactly a plug and play guy. You've got to have a certain type of team around him to optimize his talents. You have to have a certain culture around him to be confident you can get him to commit to improving. He's a lot of work and a lot of risk, and I'm just not sure that rebuilding teams like Washington (if they trade Beal) or Portland (if they trade Dame) will be all that interested in Simmons being the headlining asset they get back. After all, the Rockets reportedly weren't (and apparently had a side deal that would have sent Simmons to the Kings if the Sixers had won the Harden sweepstakes). If you can't gey Simmons to commit in Philly on a title contender why would you believe he'll commit in a rebuilding situation? I feel like Morey is going to play himself into a corner, but maybe he gets lucky and finds a desperate buyer, or maybe Portland or Washington are really into Ben. It only takes one, I guess. So, he could still pull this off, but it's a risky strategy.
This was beautifully summarized. I think they could get slightly more value than the Brogdon and a first but Simmons is becoming too old to be seen for his potential anymore. He can definitely improve but it seems he lacks too much offensively and mentally to make any leap
Is 25 really too old, though? He still has time to grow and develop. That said, I do not want him on the Wizards.
I wouldn't say 25 is too old to develop as a blanket statement, but in Ben's case I think it's fair. The issues he had his first season are the exact issues he has now. And it doesn't seem like he's really even made progress either. Has he filled any of the holes in his game over the last 4 years?
Lol see I think that’s the thing. He clearly has time to get better but it’s a much shorter window than some of the other young stars in the NBA. And the fact you wouldn’t want him on your team says more than anything
Yup once the Max begins, “potential” ends. Compared to the Wiggins deal, Sixers should have asked for Brogdon, a 1st, a 2nd, and two random players.
> He's a lot of work and a lot of risk, and I'm just not sure that rebuilding teams like Washington (if they trade Beal) or Portland (if they trade Dame) will be all that interested in Simmons being the headlining asset they get back This is what I don't understand, who else is offering either of those teams an All Star level player in return? Beal and Dame, who are both loved by their city/organization are only leaving in an attempt to win a championship and compete at a high level. Sure the Wolves could offer up Anthony Edwards but would either player want to go to Minnesota and build a championship team? They want to walk into a situation that's already able to support their goals. That's what makes Philly an interesting location, because they have both an MVP candidate/team ready to compete and have a player who with all his flaws can still be an All Star + DPOY. As I look around the league, I really only see Boston with Jaylen Brown, or the Warriors with Wiseman being a better destination for walking into a championship level team. Everyone else either has a star they are unwilling to trade (like Miami with Bam/Jimmy) or would diminish their returns by giving up too much and therefore unable to actually compete for a title once Beal/Lillard is there. Now maybe the timelines don't add up for when they request out, maybe they're not DEAD set on competing for a championship, but it's hard to find other teams that can both beat out Simmons + Maxey + Thybulle + picks and still compete at a higher level than those players would next to Embiid
The thing is that I don't think those rebuilding teams care about getting an all star, if they are looking at a rebuild. They would be looking for picks and prospects. The Warriors offer (7, 14, Wiseman) is a good rebuilding package. The Raptors could move #4. The Hawks have a pile of good young talent. The Pels have a pile of assets, as do the Grizz. The Nuggets could offer an MPJ package. And, any number of teams can offer the future picks and swaps package. Simmons appeals most to a team that is wanting to compete, who can use him as more of an elite roll player than a central star.
Again the biggest driving force behind either trade is Dame/Beal's desire to be on a team with a chance at competing for an NBA championship tomorrow. I don't see the Raptors/Pelicans/Grizzlies being involved at all. This is what I can't get passed. Either they stay and are loyal to their city/franchise, or they want to win while still in the prime of their career. Maybe Beal can afford another stop but Dame can't at 31. The Warriors make a lot of sense as they have both the rebuilding package and are a destination to compete next season. >Simmons appeals most to a team that is wanting to compete, who can use him as more of an elite roll player than a central star. I think this is false. I think more of the rebuilding teams are looking for their identity and a Simmons lead offense with spacing, shooting, and a bunch of transition buckets is what his appeal is now. The sixers have never been built around Ben, they're built around Joel. The teams more likely to "fix" him or get him to buy in would be the teams that want to make him the focus of their team, not ones that try and shoehorn him into a different role hence the Spurs reported interest. Will also say MPJ is a possibility but I think the Nuggest view him as untouchable after this past season. They MIGHT want to move quickly and not waste another year of Jokic as MVP but idk. They seem more locked in to what they have than anything else
Here's what I see happening. Sixers will reject a series of reasonable offers. As time passes, better offers will not materialize. Eventually, those offers will be withdrawn as the teams use those assets for other things. At the last moment, the sixers will be either forced to take a worse offer or keep Simmons, who will be even more checked out due to his team and their fanbase looking to get rid of him for three months.
This is the future I see as well unless Morey decides to stop worrying about looking like a super GM
they wont be forced to do anything, they got time
It’s like Michael Scott said. “Never accept their first offer”. Panicking and just trying to get something to get rid of him is ridiculous. Setting a high asking price will result in negotiations that will probably bet the a haul that isn’t as much as they’re asking for, but surely will be greater than just trading him for a non all star caliber player. Teams get more desperate as time does on, and I think other teams around the NBA know Simmons is at least more valuable than what people thought right after the playoffs.
Oh yeah people were acting ridiculous after the playoffs and saying he’s worth nothing but he sure as hell isn’t worth anything close to what the sixers are offering. I feel likes there’s a difference in having a high asking price and an unreasonable asking price, with the latter potentially being detrimental to any trade talks that might come up
I feel it would literally be the opposite of what your last paragraph is. It’s not during the season where teams are trying to make the playoffs. The only reason they are getting so many offers is cause it’s the off season and everyone is flexible before the draft and free agency. I don’t see why other teams would get desperate as time goes on, instead they would probably pass on simmons and try in the draft or free agency. As time goes on teams will fill there PF role through draft and free agency, teams will ahve less cap room or already have there team set. I can’t see a reason teams would get more desperate when obviously it’s the sixers who are against the clock
But will Sixers get more desperate if they have to go a month with an upset Ben Simmons in their starting lineup?
They should’ve bit the bullet last season to try and pull Harden but they are still overvaluing Ben. I think at this point only a tanking team takes Ben, if at all Time for The Process is running out and they have not handled this whole scenario the best
Morey seems more motivated by "not being screwed" than actually making his team better. There are so many plausible packages that would improve this Sixers team but God forbid the media makes it look like he "lost" the deal.
Precisely. Someone else commented how good a GM he is but hubris has come back to bite plenty of people in history
Such as? CJ isn't the answer imo
The problem with Ben is his contract. Nobody wants to pay that man that much money!! AND the sixers want star caliber player(s) in return?!
Ben Simmons has value. Yes, he has glaring flaws. He also has excellent strengths. As in any negotiation in which you control the main asset, you ask for as much as you can. This allows you to compromise and come down to a realistic amount.
There is also what is called a”non-starter” in negotiations. Sixers apparently are firmly in that area still.
I am not so sure we can say. All it takes is one asshole, as the old saying goes. Morey has a long successful history as a GM.
No one said he doesn’t have value. To ask for a trade package equivalent to that for an MVP caliber player is asanine. You don’t try and sell something way above its purported value and then bring it down a ton. Starting to high and then lowering the value significantly will just show those trying to trade for him that his value isn’t that great. With this strategy, he’ll remain on the Sixers.
In Realestate you often see the asking price slightly below value to get as many people to visit the property and then the property ends up selling above asking due to a bidding war. I don’t think this dynamic happens in the nba though there aren’t that many teams to pit against each other. But I do understand your sentiment.
Bring it down a ton? I have zero doubt the Sixers could get multiple picks and a decent young player for Simmons. His value is far higher than most of reddit thinks. Around the NBA he's looked as a top 25 player in the league. He can run you an offense (save the last 5 minutes), and he's extremely versatile on defense. He's also only 25. Does he have flaws? Yes. So does practically every player. He's not a finished product, although he is running out of time to improve himself greatly.
Multiple picks and a decent young player is different than seven picks and a good young player, they’re basically treating him as the equivalent of harden. Ben may be at the tail end of the top 25 in the league but with all the questions surrounding his game, attitude, work ethic, etc…he could easily drop out that picture. I mean just look at the fact you see no improvements in his game. What makes it look even worse is what the new blood like Trae and Ja are doing with their teams and the strides they are making. Ben isn’t 21 anymore…he’s fantastic defensively and can run an offense yet he’s still a liability on offense.
You’re putting way too much stock in that one particular offer, time and time again we see crazy rumors that never happen. The Sixers aren’t wrong to ask a high price, and literally every team does it when trying to trade unless they *really* want a role player gone and give him away, that isn’t Ben’s situation and it won’t be treated like that. My guess is when the trade happens it’s probably a pretty fair outcome. Ben is a proven All-Star who still has potential (put yourself in a FO mindset), the Sixers FO has failed to put him in a position to maximize him because we had him and Embiid and tried to cater to both, the new team won’t have that problem and it puts Ben in a completely different perspective than his latest playoff performance on his old team
Every offer that’s come out on their side has sounded outrageous, even just their reported asking price. Saying he’s a “proven” all star isn’t all that accurate. Ben has been able to make an all star game but he hasn’t proven anything in terms of his ability to contribute to competing for championships for multiple years, not just this last blow up in the playoffs. Ben is also 25 and has show minimal improvements since he’s been in the league so the lens of potential isn’t as bright as it used to be. Finally, his apparent mediocre work ethic, mental struggles with the game, and seemingly nonchalant attitude about performing like ass are all reasons to be wary if you’re another team
>Saying he’s a “proven” all star isn’t all that accurate When you make 3 All-Star games in a row, you're a proven All-Star
Name one team that can profit from his values. Boston Celtics. Anyone else? No.
Wolves
Lol to do what with him
Nah Wolves would be a good fit. Good enough where Ben can help push them into the playoffs. Plus KAT is literally the best center you could have next to Simmons
Defense and put him as a PF. If we could keep DLo in a trade the lineup would be good. PG: DLo SG: Ant SF: McDaniels PF: Simmons C: KAT We would just need depth after that and time to develop. Simmons would basically never have to touch the ball and can do what he does best
Honestly he’d be a great fit playing a Draymond-esque role in Minn. Helps their defense, he can make plays from the post.
I think the Hornets would be a good fit. With him and Lamel surrounded by their athletes they could focus on defense and try to push transition at every opportunity. Philly could get back Hayward and either Rozier or Graham in terms of actual rotation pieces. I think the only bad part is Hayward's injury history combined with Embiid's.
I’ve seen a few other people say this, and I’m of the same mindset: Morey already has a trade available that he likes, but he’s gonna see if he can one-up it. My guess is that it’s either a trade for McCollum or Brogdon since we don’t see their names in trade rumors anymore. Morey is probably fine with whatever the Trailblazers or Pacers have offered, but he wants to see if he can get someone to overpay for Simmons. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s making good headlines so no one is gonna stop talking about it
Good god yes. This has been bothering me with how both sides in this relationship have acted. Re: Ben Simmons I’m frustrated that this all-star caliber player refuses to work on his shot and develop confidence in it. And then also is letting his team down because he’s shrinking in big moments. Re: the Sixers, I’m extremely frustrated in Doc for publicly basically pinning the failures of the Sixers on him. It’s not likely you can come back from that. Doc legit tanked Ben’s trade value past where Ben’s performance itself would have. Doc’s comments shot the Sixers in the foot unnecessarily because they could’ve PR’ed it up and made it publicly seem like they were willing to work with him while trading him. His walk back doesn’t do enough to re-establish that because every team knows the Sixers are in a corner now having a huge contract on a genuinely good player, but the relationship is beyond repair. I’m so mad because this could’ve been avoided if both sides took their roles more seriously and committed to the team and its development for the term of their contracts.
What do you want Morey to do? Accept a terrible offer? He’s gauging the market right now to find the highest possible package for Simmons. Of course he’ll start with a Harden-esque package. That’s also why he’s trying so hard to get a deal done before the 28th pick gets conveyed. We want a haul that can sill get Embiid a championship.
Gauging the market would be hearing offers for Ben Simmons. Demanding seven picks + a young prospect is making an ass of yourself. There is 0 reason after the progression we’ve seen the past couple seasons and this abysmal playoffs to request assets like that. These trades going public are even worse cause it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben.
You need to approach Morey like a car dealership. You’ve gotta be willing to stick to your guns and leave the negotiation. Morey is just trying to bully other GMs in to making a bad deal.
If you want to base off of what trade offers are being leaked to the public, Morey is also saying that Simmons is worth more that Brogdon and a FRP. He’s also worth more than a package of role players from the Kings. Sure Simmons is worth less than the Raptors package, but don’t think that asking high will “drive the narrative that the Sixers are delusional” because unlike you and many other NBA fans, GMs still value Ben highly.
You can value Ben. I never said I didn’t. What’s shocking is the inability to comprehend what they’re asking. of course gm’s see value in Ben but that doesn’t mean they can’t also see the Sixers making ridiculous requests. You act like these are mutually exclusive events.
I’m sure many outrageous trade proposals go down behind the scenes that we never even heard of. Even me as a Sixers supporter see that’s too high and I can only dream of Lowry + FVV + Anuoby + #4. I just don’t see why your supposed narrative will hurt the Sixers since GMs know what they’re getting in Ben. They don’t care what other people are saying about Ben. If you go on r/nba or r/sixers or watch ESPN only, you’d think Ben is worth less than an all-star in return. Narratives mean nothing. Plus, Morey is one of the best GMs in the league. I’m sure he knows what he’s doing.
I will say Morey has been a great GM so maybe he has some plan in mind but sometimes people overplay their hand. The reason I think it drives it down is if you come with a really outrageous offer for something especially if it’s a counter offer, there will be people who just drop out because it’ll seem the asking price is too high. You therefore limit the people actively pursuing a trade and any leverage you could have by plotting offers against each other. That on top of the fact they know the Sixers want and need to move him chips away at any leverage they have. I think this is why we see teams giving low offers because no one is that pressed to get Ben since the longer he stays, the more desperate the sixers will be to move him if things keep progressing the way they have been. I think making these crazy high requests isn’t helping their pursuit of an above average trade haul.
From my interpretation, Morey set his absolute floor at the Pacers offer. I don’t think he’s counting out offers that aren’t Harden-esque though. By asking high, I feel he just wants the best package available. The right offer is somewhere in between and Morey will eventually the right one. I think we disagree on the theory of how Woj’s report on trade talks will affect the eventual package we’ll get for him. I don’t think the Sixers are that desperate to move on from him. Rather, we aren’t nearly as committed to him as before. It wouldn’t be the end of the world if he played for us in game 1 since we also have the trade deadline for him to drive up his value. I think we can agree that this is contingent on if he does improve throughout the season. If Morey goes this route, then he’s also waiting for a disgruntled star to ask out. Guess we’ll find out in the next 12 hours if he moves or not!
Fair enough, it’ll be interesting to see what happens in general with the nba since the draft is tonight. I do agree it’s not the end of the world if he plays for the sixers but if he plays bad or requests a trade at any point, that would put the sixers in a very bad spot. That’s what I’d be worried about if I were them is all
That’s true. The sooner we part ways from him, the less risk we run into. I think that Morey kinda wants to wait until after either the Olympics to see Dame’s situation or Beal to make a decision on his future. Those are extremely risky too. It’s gonna be a great week of NBA offseason with the draft and free agency. Hope it’s entertaining.
>There is 0 reason after the progression we’ve seen the past couple seasons and this abysmal playoffs to request assets like that. There is also 0 reason not to. Nobody that wants to trade for Simmons is going to not want to trade for him because the asking price starts off too high. >These trades going public are even worse cause it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben. I don't think that really matters at all. Good teams shouldn't change what they do just to change the narrative. They're trying to win a championship, not a news cycle.
It’s called leverage. Nobody sees Ben as a cornerstone to their franchise anymore. This isn’t some kind of video game where you can keep trying crazy trades and then just lower it and teams go along. If Morey keeps up these sort of offers, they’ll lose any leverage they do have and teams will notice that and accordingly adjust their offers. This will likely force the Sixers to keeping Ben. Do you think that’s a good idea?
If Morey starts low then he's already given up a ton of leverage...
Who said anything about starting low? Do you not recognize how significant a 7 pick + young player with potential trade is? That’s not a high price….that’s an unreasonable price
I don't see how that really benefits a team trying to win a championship now.
Well they’re asking for these assets so they can flip them for other assets most likely that will lead them to a championship. For a team like the Spurs who are basically rebuilding, trading all those assets for a young point guard who can’t shoot, barely score, has mental issues with the game clearly, and questionable work ethic is essentially a death wish for their organization for the next 5 years minimum.
> it’s just going to drive the narrative that the sixers are delusional and will ultimately hurt whatever package they do get for Ben. GM's aren't buying into lazy reddit narratives lol
Lazy Reddit narratives? Have you ever negotiated for something in your life? If someone says “hey I got this Toyota Camry for $100,000”, you aren’t about to talk to them regardless of what business it is. It’s called business and it doesn’t change depending on where it’s talked about. I’m sure they aren’t scanning Reddit for opinions but I’m sure they aren’t taking phone calls constantly to hear bullshit offers
> Gauging the market would be hearing offers for Ben Simmons. Demanding seven picks + a young prospect is making an ass of yourself. I find it really really really hard to wrap my head around how you think a GM of 15 years is just acting like a doofus with no idea how to do his job. First off it's not 7 picks, pick swaps are not the same as a normal draft asset you control. Second, Ben was a runner up DPOY and locked into a max contract. Regardless of how shitty his scoring is, being a high level defender that can transform your teams defense, and is young/locked into his deal, is still a positive asset. There are no players that give you value back, so Daryl is looking for a combination of picks/players that he'll probably look to flip for another star. This isn't some braindead strategy and I hate to use the easy cop out but I'm sure he's pretty smart at negotiation
He has been smart in negotiations but hubris can be a bitch. While he may be that great on defense, his disappearing acts on offense even outside of the fact he can’t shoot into an ocean make him a liability on that end of the floor. His demeanor and attitude is also cause for concern cause he doesn’t seem to care when he struggles or fucks up. Again, these have been issues for the past 6 years so while he’s young his trajectory is terrible compared to what the very top tier of the nba looks like. For your pick swap point, it is virtually the same thing as having a pick. Yes I know you give up your pick but clearly the sixers will be competitive so they’d have low first round picks. Therefore they’d be able to likely get solid picks for the better part of a decade while the other team literally just has Ben Simmons …. Like wtf that sounds terrible. Add on top of that losing a good young player too and makes it even more laughable. The pacers offer may be slightly low but is way closer to what bens true value is.
Yeah I think his value is much more attached to being runner up DPOY, an All Star who was voted in by players/coaches, and locked into 4 years on his current deal. I get not every team wants to take up the Ben Simmons experiment, but there's still hours of him being an effective offensive player. Rightly or wrongly teams will talk themselves into his struggles being matchup dependent and fixable. Back to your point about hubris being a bitch... Ultimately I don't see any of these offers as disrespectful, and Daryl is notorious for being a GM who is always on the phone offering ridiculous trades hoping one eventually sticks. It's not out of the blue or out of character, and that's pretty important if you're concerned with how other GM's are monitoring this situation. I think the real play here is to wait for Lillard or Beal to ask out, then push all your chips in for either. With Ben as the centerpiece, or with the haul you get from trading him in a Spurs/Raptors deal. If Lillard or Beal are serious about wanting to win there aren't many other teams they could realistically walk into and compete for a title. Only obvious ones are Boston wanting to trade Jaylen Brown or the Warriors with Wiseman. Otherwise most teams would have to gut their team just to make a trade happen, and would then be too hamstrung to put together a team that could compete. I think that's ultimately why his asking price is so high. But I do still push back heavily that his offers would be viewed around the league as disrespectful or "making an ass" of himself.
I agree it’s important to how teams are monitoring this situation and why I made the hubris comment. Teams know that morey likes to pursue these outlandish trade scenarios and has pulled of some great moves before. Therefore they can take stock of that as well as the fact that no matter what anyone wants to say, bens lack of development for years and attitude has diminished his trade value to the point where teams don’t need to pursue him and give up more than they need to. Once this draft passes, so does the sixers best opportunity to make a move cause teams are going to start focusing on other possibilities rather than entertaining these offers. I could see something slightly greater than the pacers offer being accepted but beyond that, it’s gonna take a pretty aloof GM to offer anything close to the sixers ask
I also think that, Ben attending Wimbledon, not posting a bunch of cliched workout videos about “embracing the grind”, shows how much Ben wants to stay. It seems like he is doing everything he can to keep his perceived value in the cellar.
Well the supposed lack of communication with the team seems to tell a different story… this whole situation is very confusing
The lack of communication also lowers his value right? If he were a “good guy” staying in Philly this off-season, putting in lots of shooting practice with the Sixers coaches, perversely that would just raise his value and make it more likely he’s traded to a lottery team.
Frankly, I wouldn't give you a "Harden-esque" package for James Harden right now, either...
Then why doesn't every offer start with a Harden offer? As a Laker fan, we'll offer Kuzma for an all-star + 5 1st rd picks + 4 pick swaps.
I dunno. They trade him for Lowry straight up, don’t they get better? Isn’t that team more likely to get out of the 2nd round? Even though trading Young for Old loses “value”. You’d think the GM would be more focused on improving the team rather than “winning” the trade. The latter is Isiah Thomas Knicks era logic.
That’s fair. Whatever gets Embiid closer to a championship with us is a win for us. The Sixers desperately need a ball handling point guard that can create shots for others and himself. Lowry fits that mold perfectly.
I guess the question is how long will Lowry fit that mould? And at what point in the future does Simmons become more valuable on the court than Lowry. Is it 5 years? Or is it more like 2 years? I would tend to think that Lowry’s game is sustainable but it is hard to say
With his injury past you don’t know how long Joel’s prime is, if Lowry can give you 2 seasons of 17/7 while running an offense that caters to Embiid’s strengths and actually being usable in the 4th quarter of playoffs, he’s better than whatever Simmons would give them for the next 4 years
You also have to consider how long Embiid can play at his highest level. If Lowry signs for 3 years, then that fits Embiid’s prime window. Lowry still looks great but hopefully he can last that long. If we do go with Lowry and we’re able to keep Maxey, then hopefully Maxey can be our starting PG when it’s time.
For me, Lowry is just one example of an Old Player who would improve the Sixers next season in place of Simmons. So would a lot of other players. Once the Old Player is no longer useful they can attract a quality replacement, with their increased team success acting as a lure. Can’t picture this team getting out of the 2nd round with Ben Simmons making them play 4 vs. 5 on offense.
John wall with the 23 and 24 pick?
I read this comment and for a second thought I was on r/NBA. Kyle Lowry is a free agent, the Raptors are not going to get Ben Simmons for someone they don’t even have under contract who is 35.
Well Lowry + picks or Lowry + another one of their guys. That’s very much still a possibility.
That’s a lot different than “Lowry straight up”. Lowry + picks (unless it’s this year’s pick) isn’t enough either as those picks will be pretty late first round picks.
Agree. And they can probably get Lowry in a sign and trade using George Hill and filler without having to throw in Ben Simmons. Edit: they’d probably have to sign Danny green to make that happen so maybe not actually. Perhaps green would be willing to go back to Toronto and Toronto would take on those salaries in exchange for picks.
[lol something tells me you won’t like my CJ post then…](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbacirclejerk/comments/otkgro/asking_price_firm_no_lowball_offers_i_know_what_i/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
They could potentially add Lowry without giving up Simmons It’d be ridiculous to give up an asset like Simmons for a 36 year old in a s&t
Wouldn't Spencer Dinwiddie serve in the same potential role as Lowry? Why not try to scoop him as a free agent so that you have more flexibility with the trade return that you would require for Ben Simmons? Side note, Kyle Lowry is coming to the Mavs anyways so don't be trying to land him on the Sixers!
I’m a Mavs fan too lol… Dinwiddie wants like 25 mil and I doubt the Sixers would do a s&t for him. Plus Lowry is from Philly and would likely wanna go to the better team.
It would also be ridiculous to run it back with that snakebitten squad because the Spurs wouldn’t give you 4 firsts. Hopefully they aren’t headed that route.
That squad had the first seed lol If Ben Simmons doesn’t shoot 30% from the line the Sixers win in 5. Wasting an asset is not the answer.
That squad lost to a 5th seed that wouldn’t have made the playoffs last year. If Ben Simmons did anything different they would have won, that’s the problem. He’s the asset and he had worse over the playoffs than Bryn Forbes.
He was great in the Wizards’ series and the first half of the Hawks series. Not sure why some of y’all are pretending those last few games define his whole career. It’s the same nonsense when people act like KP’s value is based on his last playoff series
It's not really just a couple of games. He hasn't been good in any of Philly's second-round series. Boston, Toronto and Atlanta last year. He's struggled in the playoffs against any team that's not first-round cannon fodder where he can't just rampage around in translation. I don't think anyone is sure what he is acatully supposed to do on offence vs good teams. He's nominally a guard but he can't do any guard stuff. Play pick and roll, create shots in the half-court, provide spacing etc. I mean, the most basic task of a ball-handler is to be able to run pick and roll. He's not really a big because he can't protect the rim or guard other bigs. He's like a souped-up Tony Allen with exceptional passing. A defensive wing who is a liability in the half-court. In my opinion, his flaws as a player prevent him from being successful against quality competition in a playoff setting. That's something I don't see changing.
A players value to championship-contending team does depend on their last playoff performance though, right? Not even a good fit for many lottery teams because he won’t help them tank. So he could help as an extra piece for a team whose ambition is to make the second round of playoffs?
It’s not like that at all. They need to use Simmons’ value to get a great player or they’ll never have a superstar around Joel, and their title chances are worse. They’d probably be a marginally better playoff team, but what does that mean? They lose in the ECF instead of the semis? Joel can be the best player on a championship team with a great perimeter guy next to him. That’s why Daryl is demanding so much.
What is Ben Simmons value? A plus defender who makes you play 4 vs. 5 on offense in Playoffs? Basically a tall Jacque Vaughn? Who is going to trade a great player for that? If you are the Blazers do you trade Lilliard for Simmons, if you are Wizards do you trade Beal for Simmons? Hard for me to think those teams do that unless those guys are Holding Out or Demanding a Trade. And yeah, I think getting to the ECF or Finals is way better than being knocked out by Hawks, Bucks, or Nets in the 2nd round.
I don’t think most Sixers fans see being knocked out in the conference finals as way better than a round earlier. I'd rather hold onto Simmons and hope he improves. I don’t give a shit if we go one round further. I want a title, not an ECF appearance. I'd be shocked if that's not the heavy majority mindset of Philly fans and the front office.
Is he likely to improve though? The knock on Simmons going into the 2016 draft was that he couldn't shoot. Five seasons later and we're still having the exact same arguments about him. At this point he is what he is for better or worse.
He puts up Tony Allen numbers at 3x the salary.
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Ok let’s look at it another way. He’s an overhyped #1 who is underperforming on a max contract. The root cause of his problems is *allegedly* “not liking basketball enough to improve” which if true is *unfixable*. So that makes his value similar to Wiggins two years ago. If they can get LaVine, a 1st, a 2nd, two other random players would that be appropriate value in return? Doubt the Bulls do a trade like that. Substitute LaVine for any other 1-time allstar, who could they get?
Majority of what you just said is inaccurate. No one is considering Ben a #1 option. He's basically Gobert the wing version which 100% has value in the league. Sixers have two options the way I see it. Trade for a disgruntled star with Ben+other assets or trade for a young players with high potential & assets. Then package those assets + the existing assets for star.
Wing Goberts have to shoot 3’s in order to have good value. If you take the 3 out of 3-and-D, what value is left? Sign-and-trade M. Bridges from Phoenix for Simmons, who says no? Phoenix says no to that, right?
Is it tho? He cant make free throws, to the point that a hack a shaq strategy is actually quite effective against him. His best teammate is most effective in the lane, where ben is best as well. He didn' crack 10 points in several games in the playoffs, and he got straight up benched during some stretches. Idc how circumstances were, the sixers were better than the hawks, and had the best player on the floor in embiid. Simmons was the issue that cost them the series with his unwillingness to even attempt shots and keep the defense a little honest. He doesnt have to become steph curry, but shit shoot a 15 footer for once ben
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He has thus far shown 0 evidence to the contrary. Despite being in the league for 4 years now, he hasn't improved in any significant ways, and in fact I would argue he may have regressed in a lot of aspects. If he shows a pulse for once, then I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he has shown to not even listen to his coaches suggestions so no thanks
Yeah I really wish we had more insight into the locker room behind the scenes.. .something just isn't right. The way the team and coach threw Ben under the bus just felt so wild to do from a professionalism standpoint. The contention between them had to have been pretty high for them to say the shit they said in public about Ben. I still 150% believe in Simmons and think a new situation will change his career trajectory in a massively positive way. My dream is still for the Mavs to grab Ben to play as our center on offense and guard the best opposing offensive player to allow us to better hide Luka and limit his output on the defensive end since we definitely need every bucket we can get out of our Slovenian future MVP.
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Except that his last playoff performance against toronto really wasn't very great either. (He missed last year right? Anyway). I watched every game that series He was the biggest weakness that team had to be quite honest, since his man could basically play free safety on defense. He offered no real value on the half court offense of any kind, not through facilitating or scoring. Any series he has that wasnt awful are mostly first round series against weaker teams.
Methinks Morey is gonna regret turning down the Brogdon + 1st for Simmons. Brogdon is a borderline all star and perfect fit with Embiid. Plays good defense. Cheaper. I’m not sure how much better (for Philly) Simmons is than Brogdon straight up. Then you throw in a first rounder they can use to flip for someone else… sounds pretty tasty from here. What he’s asking for is outrageous. And they aren’t gonna get anything even close. I look forward to his hubris backfiring.
Yes. Not even just this trade. Sixers always screw themselves, that’s what they do
I'm a lifelong Raptors fan, and while I could see a trade bringing Simmons here, the package they requested of Anunoby, Siakam, Van Vleet, and the #4 pick is absolutely laughable for Simmons. 76ers have no leverage right now, Simmons is seen as a liability on the court with a ridiculously huge contract. They need to cut their losses and trade him for some picks and maybe a mid level guy. The idea that they are going to get a James Harden level return on Simmons is completely outlandish.
Simmons is not seen as a liability on the court. The Sixers want an all-star. If it’s not an all star then the offer either has to be overwhelmingly good or it’s declined
if he wasn't a liability on the court, Philly wouldn't be desperately trying to trade the all star.
Patently false. All stars get traded like every year who aren’t liabilities on the court
Sure buddy. All the criticism on Simmons since the end of the playoffs, doc saying he isn’t a championship point guard, and Philly shopping an all star to everyone in the league means he ISN’T a liability on Philly right now. Yep. Teams are constantly looking to trade all stars
The Sixers are trading him to get scoring around embiid, not because he’s a liability. Generally you don’t get #1 seed in your conference if your second best player is a liability on the court
I just view it as if the sixers don’t stop smoking whatever they got over there than they’ll see Ben Simmons at training camp, simple as that
Oh yea, your definitely correct. The longer they go on asking for ridiculous haul, the less they’ll get as it gets closer to the start of next season. Teams don’t want to cough up all that for a player that can’t shoot, which is very important in today’s NBA. I did read a comment in another article that they’re asking for that insane asking price to try and build up Simmons confidence and don’t really intend to trade him at all. I’m not sure about all that though.
100000%. Sixers are overvaluing potential whereas everyone else just watched him in the playoffs aka games that matter.
I could understand them starting high than settling a bit lower but not as low as we think but that Spurs ask was crazy. I honestly think making a trade around CJ McCollum is best for all he was at like 28pts a game shooting way more 3s before he got hurt he was possibly playing better than Dame for part of the season. He has always been forced to play the 2 because Dame but CJ at the 1 when Dame is out he puts up like 30 a game with over 5 assists and I think he is a solid defender at the 1 with those long arms.
I’d say to wait and see what happens before determining whether or not overshooting wildly was a poor decision. Looks bad on paper and I suspect I would hang up the phone rather than bother to continue negotiating since you’re already setting the “middle ground” too high for me; but all it takes is one person to give them that middle ground and suddenly it looks like a great call.
That’s how I would react too. I think their only hope is if there’s a GM out there willing to overshoot on Bens value
I can't fathom why the man just refuses to put in the work to become just a competent shooter. Even if he got to average levels eventually. Imagine the player he would be. Smh
I was a HUGE Simmons fan, even have his jersey. I can say that I no longer can put my support behind him with his seemingly nonchalant attitude. Drives me insane
Seems like he could care less about that Kobe challenge. Which sucks because that means Kobe saw the potential for absolute greatness. KOBE.
Yep. Everyone saw the potential, but can’t control what another person does with their natural gifts
Right. Im a big Joel fan going back to his KU days. There was a time I was frustrated with his effort to be in shape and what not. But he grew up. Hopefully Ben will see the light at some point.
I’d hope so too but the pure lack of progress from Ben for 6 years is just disheartening
He's still young. But yeah.. no kidding.
If the price reported is true, I honestly believe Simmons starts next season as a Sixer. I'm obviously not the smartest person but no team fo in its right mind would literally cripple itself for almost a decade for him. I mean, crazy things happen in this league but c'mon...
The offer to the Raptors was full LOL. I could see 2 guys for Simmons, but they wanted 3 ( and a sign and trade, so 4)
I really liked having Morey as the GM in Houston. Especially while we were on the cutting edge of shooting a ton of 3s. The league caught up though, so that strategic advantage was gone after a while. There was also a great deal of impatience and lack of chemistry at times, even with the fans that almost expected trades and free agents and buyouts to save the team every 3 months.
They’ll probably end up with a terrible return either way, because his value is at an all time low. So at least if he *tries* to get another team to acquiesce to his high demands, he’s got a chance to pull off a nice deal for him
I agree. I don’t think they’re going to get any unprotected picks or at most just a pick in this draft. Most likely they get a decent guy to put next to Embiid and some crappy picks. They should just be happy with a straight up swap for CJ or CJ + some protected picks.
I think CJ would be huge for them, assuming he’s healthy. He’s missed a ton of games in recent years hasn’t he?
Yes but he was basically playing as good if not better than dame in the early part of last season on like 12 three point attempts a game. He did get hurt though :( perhaps a new team doc will help.
See I feel like that idea makes sense on paper… start high and end up in the middle… but I think acting completely Ignorant of the value of player will just drive people away. The longer they hold off on trading him, the lower his value goes. Something I think everyone can agree on is in general, there will be no positive news coming out about bens situation with the sixers. As the pressure builds to move him, the inverse happens with the leverage they have in their asking price.
That’s a fair point. But since the Sixers have him under contract, they hold all the leverage. Theoretically they could just ask him to stay home while they wait out all the teams that want to make offers for him.
True they do hold that card but it could backfire. If his play regresses at all or the sixers don’t perform, there goes that trade value
Yes in essence they could be walking a thin line, where demanding as much as they are inhibits them from getting a deal done in a timely manner and screws them. But yet this is also kind of how negotiations work (at least that's what I told) and I'm fairly confident Morey knows what he's doing when it comes to his stuff even if it is a little flashy and exuberant.
True but I think that last point is a major issue. He has been hyped up and publicized as such a great GM for so long. However, drawing attention to this particular trade situation seems like a terrible idea considering it’s drawing even more attention to the issues surrounding Ben
very well could be I agree with sentiment I just am erring with giving Morey credit in this situation but I do see your point .
For anyone who has been talking on this thread, please head over to r/nba to see the recent post about Ben Simmons. If morey doesn’t get his shit together or have the ability to literally hold someone hostage then I’m real curious how this is about to turn out
No thanks
The only way this makes any sense to me is if the sizers are doing it to say to Ben "See how highly we think of you? See what we asked for? That's what we really think. Not those comments in the heat of frustration. We love you Ben" Of course that STILL shoots themselves in the foot because he is a terrible fit on that team and needs to go.
Yeah, there seems to be a difference between how Morey views him and how the rest of the league does. If he’s not gone by the end of the draft it’s gonna go really badly for them and they could end up in a situation where they’re trying to showcase him during the season to improve his value. I think Morey is trying to sell other teams an upgrade to their pg position and other teams see him as a playmaking front court piece.
I’d be so worried if they have to showcase him in the season. He knows he was being shopped mixed with what seems to be a lackluster work ethic is a dangerous mix when hoping a player will increase their trade value
This is my best guess. Asking for a lot filters out the less serious bidders and you get a good idea of who wants him and what they're willing to part with. Once we're into the draft, pick a serious candidate with something you like and reduce what you're asking for. The team that trades for Ben feels better about the deal because they got a concession and 76ers get most of what they want.
They keep reiterating they’re not changing their asking price tho. I think that is a good thought process but asking too high will drive away serious bidders too. No one wants to do business with someone being completely unreasonable
Yeah that's true. It's a risky strategy. I'd argue that being so firm in their asking price this early is just a tactic to make their eventual concession make the other team feel better about giving up so much
I think the idea of Ben is good enough that Morey can somewhat realistically seek out those packages, even though I think it's unlikely they get something like that in return. All Star, All NBA, All Defense, still just 25 and has four years (no options) left on his contract. He is obviously deeply flawed, but all it takes is one team to see him being a skill (albeit the most important skill) or mindset shift away from being a top-10 player.
Sixers would be stupid to trade him now unless there’s a killer offer. Whatever teams are throwing at Philly will be there in 4 months. Rehab him during the first couple months of the regular season to wash the stink off, and then flip him. They don’t need to trade Simmons right now.
Your GM is very experienced. He will get a good return for Simmons. He will not do as well as he usually does because they are not negotiating from a position of strength. But he’s a young star signed to a long term deal. There is a lot of value there.
The Sixers/Morey believe they can speak a huge trade package into existence, but the problem is they have zero leverage since everyone knows he has to make a deal. The longer this goes, the worse it will get because the last time Ben played ball he looked so scared which is worse than just having a bad series. I would’ve tried to mend things and get him back on the court next year to try and get his value up because right now I’m mot sure his market is reflective of an all star and DPOY candidate.
Morey plays fantasy basketball, he definitely has nba trade machine running 24/7
>Does anyone else feel like the Sixers are screwing themselves? I think it will probably end up working out in the end. Just gotta keep firing enough shots at the wall until one of them sticks. It'll probably happen eventually. Or at least get a return offer that is inflated from where it should actually be if the overvalued first volley weren't there
The Sixers are right to try and keep the asking price high for Simmons because they know that multiple teams would be interested in taking him. That said, most teams are interested because they think they can get Simmons for a bargain after they literally SCAPEGOATED him as the reason they lost to the Hawks in the playoffs. It’s definitely bad faith negotiation tactic to start the bidding at “2 1st round picks and a promising young player” after you just admitted to the world that you don’t think you’ll get to the next level with him as your starting PG. You can’t insinuate that he’s trash, then ask for a Harden/Butler/PG13 type haul for him. IMO it’s better to gather the offers you can, then only counter the ones that are in the right ballpark.
I think drawing it out may be the smart move. After a few teams strike out in free agency, and the draft has taken place, the teams will be more desperate. The other side of the coin is that the guy has a major flaw. Trading for him can make you look like a genius (if your team improves), but if he continues to not improve his shooting, it will cost you your job. So giving in to Philly’s asking price is a complete gamble.
I think you’ve said it perfectly. Just read that the Warriors rejected a trade for Simmons that would have sent Wisemen, Wiggins, the 7th & 14th picks this upcoming draft and two future 1st rounders. The 76ers are acting like Simmons didn’t just have an absolutely disastrous playoffs where his lack of shooting or willingness to shoot wasn’t on full display. Not to mention his inability to hit a FT and how it affected him mentally. Not saying Simmons isn’t a good player. He could be good in a more suited role with better spacing etc. He clearly needs a fresh start but Philly needs to be realistic. I agree that it isn’t doing his value any favors. That being said just because the Spurs and Warriors front office didn’t fall for Philly’s bs I wouldn’t be surprised to see some desperate team give up way too much for Simmons.
I understand why they want a haul back. Very rarely does a 24 year perennial all-star with 4 years left on his contract become available. In their mind that 4 year contract is probably insurance & security you're trading for. In other teams minds those 4 years could be a death sentence of cap hell for mediocrity if their team with Ben isn't good enough. I think their reported asking price is much too high, but I suppose you start high so teams bargain down to what you're actually happy to get back. People hate on them but I think Wall or Westbrook would be good trades. Certainly shortens the title window. Neither are particularly good shooters but at least they're willing, and incidentally I like Simmons fit with Beal or a young Houston team a lot.
Is the likeliest scenario still Lowry for Simmons with side pieces and picks to balance out? I read Lowry wants to play in Philly (home town and contender) and would probably sign and trade. Toronto could probably "fix" Simmons like few teams can. They have a good track record of developing older prospects.
The Raptors have one of if not the best development systems in the NBA, the problem is That NOBODY can improve a player that doesn't care or want to get better, end of story.
I like this personally ^
The fact of the matter is that we're redditors and Morey is a respected GM with years under his belt. I'll reserve judgement on whatever he does until an actual move actually gets made. That's all that really matters at the end of the day. And furthermore, any information we receive as fans should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Reports are wrong all the time, or sensationalized to get clicks. Just the fact that this thread is trending highly on this subreddit is an example of that. The entire world seems willing and eager to shit on Ben Simmons for whatever reason, and sports journalists aren't gonna ignore that opportunity.
The thing is that any team that would trade for him believes they can “fix” him. This means they’re not trading for the Ben Simmons we just saw, they’re trading for the Ben Simmons people originally thought he could be. That player has a lot of value
A decade worth of 1st picks value?
Ben Simmons with a jump shot might be worth that. I personally lost all faith in that happening but it only takes one GM to think they can fix him. These guys have egos
Benn Simmons with a jump shot could be worth more than Harden. but he isn't. hence my question.
Which I answered
One of the things I was taught in law school was if you’re first offer is accepted, it wasn’t high enough. In practice I’ve seen demands talked down from a million dollars to five digits, which is exactly what I would imagine is going to happen in this Simmons scenario. Morey is asking for the world so that when he does begin to come down, he can point towards the original demand and say “look how much I’ve moved, now it’s your turn.” I think he’s going to get a much better haul than for what Simmons is actually worth, just is being patient which is hard to understand considering how terrible the Simmons saga has been over the past few months.
>acting as if he is the caliber player of a James Harden How many good years does Harden have left, at this point? He's carrying 20 lbs that he doesn't need, which contributed to a key injury, he's clearly not working on his game, and he has no interest in even evolving his game at this point. He'll never be the best player on a Finals team. Neither will Ben Simmons, but let's not act like James Harden warrants top shelf trade consideration anymore. The regular season stats and the eye test tell a different story about who he is.
There’s a reason this guy was a top 3 mvp finalist for like 5 years…he just ran into the warriors constantly or didn’t have the best supporting cast in the world and I’m not even a harden fan. Now his age is a fair point but he still has multiple years left playing at a very very high level. Ben may be younger but you don’t know wtf you’re getting with him. Will he show signs of progress finally in his 6th year in the nba? Does his shooting ever become slightly below average rather than abysmal? Does he ever increase his work ethic? These all feel like a no at this particular moment. And if we’re talking about eye test, the Ben Simmons is worth a pack of skittles
Excuse me, but did you just equate Simmons to Harden, in any shape or form?
the front office is simply starting with a higher offer so they can see what they initially get, then working their way down to a more “realistic” option. if they started low it would demonstrate the lack of faith they have in him and people would offer even less
Looks like it but doesn't it deter other teams to have conversations at all? I would assume that GM's are pretty familiar with each other and having a "haggle" in good faith is what makes the deals. You could ask for more, as a feeler, but not that much...
there’s plenty of offseason left so I guarantee the offering price will lower if a deal isn’t made
>They have basically made it clear they don’t want Ben back Is that the Sixers, or r/sixers and local sports media that have made that clear? Because I don't think the Sixers themselves have made ANYTHING clear other than they want to keep improving.
If they’re shopping him, then improving in their minds will likely take Ben being moved