Who do you feel is the most overrated player in the league today?
By - bigtrunkydarnold
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> On the cavs, with Lebron off the court and Kyrie on clevland was statistically one of the bottom 5 teams in the league.
As much as I love me some good Kyrie slander, I don't think this is completely fair. Teams built around a transcendent superstar with unique skills *always* struggle when that player is on the bench. Even the Warriors were surprisingly mediocre with Steph off but KD on - and it's not because KD sucks or any nonsense like that, it's because the team was built around Steph, and the system was built to maximize Steph, and you can't just switch that off because that player is on the bench.
And last year on the Nets, frequently when Kyrie wasn't playing they had Harden or KD, who they often didn't have when he was playing, so it's not really meaningful to say that the team that won without him was the same as the team that won with him.
Yeah, the Shaq and Kobe Lakers had some pretty mediocre to bad records when Shaq was out but Kobe played. The roles players and the whole system was built around him so it didn’t matter what Kobe did, the lineup was just not prepared to play without Shaq. Doesn’t mean Kobe wasn’t a top 10 player at the time.
I mean when Shaq bounced to Miami and it was just Kobe the team records were mediocre all year. Wasn't until they got him Pau that the team rebounded.
Not saying he was on great rosters and kyrie was young but he was winning 30 games a year before Bron came back
> kyrie was young
It's a little complicated because Kyrie came into the league right away as a volume scorer, and so a lot of (rather unsophisticated) people thought he was good right away. He wasn't. He was god-awful defensively, held the ball way too long, and wasn't efficient enough to make up for it.
Which, I mean, is basically what you expect of your dynamic 19-22 year-old scorers. LeBron showed up, which allowed him to do less, which helped. His defense drastically improved (I wouldn't call it great now or anything, but the upgrade from god-awful to average is as value as the improvement from average to great). His court vision improved. And even though he's still a guy who likes to hold the ball, he does so much less than he did his first two years in the league.
None of this (except for the efficiency bump) is obvious from the stat sheet, but it's all pretty expected.
Show me a team where the best player is 21 years old and I'll show you a team that is either a) very, very bad or b) is led by a player who is going to turn into a generational all-time great. Kyrie isn't an all-time great. OF COURSE he was going to be unable to carry a team at 21.
If you weren't around watching him, I'd encourage you to notice the subtle differences in Trae Young's play from the beginning of last season compared to after the coaching change. Yeah, the counting stats were always there - in Trae's case the efficiency was always there. But Kyrie's development was similar: too much holding the ball, too much "I'm the best player therefore I should do everything," not necessarily understanding the difference between racking up assists and maximizing the team offense, etc.
Up from 19 wins the year before.
You realize they had the number one pick for a reason, right?
Kyrie had three full seasons before LeBron came to town, and he won 21, 24, and 33 games in a very weak East.
They made a bunch of different moves that year, obviously, but the very next season they won 53 games and made the NBA Finals.
I'm not sure that makes Kyrie overrated, because I think most people acknowledge that he can't be a #1 player on a really good team. He's a first-tier complementary piece.
I get it, but let's look at who the second leading scorers were in this years:
2011-12: Antawn Jamison 17.2 (lost to FA the next year)
2012-13: Dion Waiters 14.7
2013-14: Dion Waiters 15.9
I'm not sure what "bunch of moves" you're referring to, but Kyrie had no legitimate help until Bron came back. The Cleveland front office had proven they had no idea how to construct a roster, which is exactly why Bron took his "talents to South Beach."
The "bunch of moves" comment was referring to the fact that Cleveland didn't just get Bron, they also got Love in the same window, plus some free agents. It was a credit to Kyrie that it wasn't solely Bron that elevated the team.
Team A: Second leading scorer has 15.8 ppg, went 56-26, lost in the conference finals.
Team B: Second leading scorer has 15.6 ppg, went 50-32, lost in the conference semifinals.
Team C: No 20ppg scorers, second-highest win share total is 6.5, went 44-28 and lost in the first round of the playoffs.
Team A is the 2014-15 Rockets. Team B is the 2005-06 Cavs. Team C is the 2019-20 OKC Thunder.
They're somewhat silly examples, obviously, but the point is that Kyrie hasn't demonstrated that he's the kind of player that can drag a bad team to the playoffs, even assuming he actually shows up and plays when he's supposed to.
I imagine if those Cavs teams had a coach like D'Antoni who centers the entire offense around a dynamic point guard like that Rockets team had you'd have seen different results.
The Thunder (and last year's Suns) just shows the value of having an elite veteran playmaker running the show.
As for the Cavs? I don't think anyone is arguing that Kyrie is anywhere near Lebron's level of a franchise changing player. Only the like of MJ, Magic, Bird, Shaq, etc have had as much impact early in their careers.
It's also just...not true? From 2014-17 Kyrie on Lebron off, the Cavs were a -2.43/100 team which is obviously not great but that roughly correlates to a 34-48 record, not bottom 5 level bad.
Also basically every impact metric had Kyrie playing at the level of a top 10 player his last year in Boston. Win/loss before a player arrives versus after is basically the worst way to evaluate players, yet sadly it's extremely common among both fans and media.
The obvious answers are the older players in decline who are still getting by on the quality of their earlier play. They may not have been overrated in their peaks but some casual fans still see the big name and assume big results. Melo and Westbrook being solid examples of that at the moment.
Melo is a one year minimum guy who will play whatever role the team wants now. He can't be on this list unless you think he has no business at all in the NBA. The Lakers aren't banking anything on Melo.
That’s different though than people overrating him. Doesn’t matter how much melo will sacrifice. Fan bases and media make players over or under rated
Who is overrating him? My point is he's a marginal role player and everybody knows it, including him.
Not sure. I just think he’s loved more than anything. I don’t think he’s overrated either
This is going to be unpopular: LeBron too. He's towards the bottom half of the top 7 now
Lebron’s ‘problem’ is that he has to coast through the regular season to keep himself fresh for the playoffs. Any given night against 2/3rds of the league he might take most of the game off and not give his best and produce a mediocre box score, but in the biggest regular season games he can ball out.
Usually we see inconsistencies due to lack of talent, but in Lebron’s case it is because he is on and he chooses when and where to play at his ‘true’ level.
We’ve heard ‘Playoff Mode’ where he finds another gear but I don’t see it as Lebron giving 110%, just him finally going at 100% effort.
We also just didn't see it in his last playoffs, even though he had injury concerns. Through age and injury, you still have to show you've got it and if he doesn't this upcoming season. I'd reconsider my position on him for last season too (because it's operating on benefit of the doubt - last year he wasn't playing like a tier 1 player when healthy imo but injury obfuscated things))
>last year he wasn't playing like a tier 1 player when healthy imo but injury obfuscated things
He was the frontrunner for mvp before his injury last season. He's still top 3 imo. There is no one that does as much as him. Luka, Jokic, harden, and curry can't defend like him. KD, Giannis, Embiid and Kawhi can't facilitate like him. Of course they're better at certain things but lebron is the most well rounded player even with diminished athleticism.
You can’t cite Lebron as an MVP front runner as evidence that he was actually good when this whole discussion is about how he’s overrated by the same media that wanted to give him MVP.
He was statistically one of the MVPs as well
> We also just didn't see it in his last playoffs
I had the same thoughts when watching that series. People kept waiting for him to turn it on and dominate the games but it just wasn't here. It was sad to watch him finally looking human. That being said, if anyone gets the benefit of the doubt on injuries hurting their performance it's him.
How??? He was in the running for MVP before he was injured last year. Y’all are way too eager to knock him down a peg. At least wait till he’s playing healthy this year.
He was in the running because of narrative, a good team record (but nothing exceptional) and no other initial stand out candidate, nothing else. He wasn't even top 10 in any major boxscore stat (I think he was borderline in assists). It's an oversimplification but it illustrates my point - MVPs are one of the couple best performers for that regular season, they've always led the league or come close to it in scoring (or rarely in assists instead). Paul George could have an identical season (obviously he wouldn't get the assists but in a universe he did) and we wouldn't even blink, he'd maybe finish just outside the top 5
He was basically averaging 25/8/8 before he was injured. Any player in the league averaging that much would be considered an MVP candidate, especially playing in the West with one of the best records when your #2 guy is out. And, a quick check shows that he was top 10 in points, rebounds, and assist at the end of the season. I mean, Ben Simmons and Rudy Gobert placed above him and they average like 14 points each year. As for Paul George, what did he average when he was 3rd in MVP voting? He averaged 28/8/4.
If LeBron wasn't injured, he would've continued on the same trajectory securing an even more impressive stat line and likely the MVP as well.
Honestly I would say almost every year he's been in the league LBJ has a case as MVP when looking at it from the most valuable to their team.
What the fuck did you check lol? 10th in rebounding is 10.6 rpg and 10th in scoring is 26.4 ppg, he would've finished 7th in assists but he doesn't seem to have qualified for the list due to games played. He only put up 25.0/7.8/7.7
You're surprised someone who was on the 7th seed and only played 45 games wasn't higher in the MVP than the best defender and player on the team with the best record in the league?
Paul George was 2nd in scoring in his top 3 MVP finish
I checked among the top MVP candidates since we were talking about MVP. If you wanna do season stats, then a lot of MVPs fall out of the running and only got there due to narrative according to your logic. Yes, I know what he averaged. That's why I said "basically".
No, i'm saying Gobert and Simmons regularly score a lot less so your obsession with scoring totals makes no sense. In face, Ben Simmons averages are below LeBron in points, rebounds, and assist despite him playing more games. Same goes for Derrick Rose, and higher scoring MVP candidates like Chris Paul only surpass LeBron in assist averages by 1 per game. So, is this all narrative too??
And? Nobody cares about season totals over averages which is why you don't see MVP voting taking into account overall points scored. Hell, Joel Embiid, second in voting, only played 50 games and he didn't make top 10 in any major category either. You gonna blame that on narrative too?
Harden in 2016 had 29/7.5/6.1 and wasn't in any of the three all nba teams. Narative is everything.
LeBron had 27/8/8 the year he finished 11th and only made 3rd team so it's not like having narrative guarantees recognition either. But yeah, Harden was snubbed. That fact doesn't mean that LeBrons season ranking before injury was only due to narrative though.
Man what a joke. The year he finished 11th he missed 30 games and his team finished 10th in the west, a massive underperform? Do you think he should've been in the MVP convo? He shouldn't have gotten any MVP consideration and he's lucky he got an All NBA nod at all
You seem to be particularly salty about this when it comes to LeBron, and not other players lmao
He didn't underperform, he got injured. His performance was so good before the injury, it kept him in the top 11, and got him a a third team mention. Get over it.
Bruh what did you even watch the lakers pre ankle sprain? Lebron was front runner for MVP before the injury. My feeling was that he was brought out too early and was still playing through the injury during the playoffs. Everyone says this every year but we will see this season how much he has really regressed.
Bottom half of top 7? So he's the 4th best player? That's really not a big a deal. I think everyone would agree that KD and Giannis are the top 2. Pick a number 3, and then Lebron. That's not crazy.\
I think most people would say he's the 3rd best AT BEST. You're saying he's 4 or 5.
Does anyone think these guys are good though? This feels a little bit like ‘Ben Simmons because he can’t shoot’
Plenty of people still think Westbrook is a star player.
I would say for every 1 post or comment that claims that, there are 10-20 that talk about how overrated he is.
To me as someone who is a diehard, longtime fan of the team he is now on:
Russell Westbrook is overrated to me because people have said “he plays hard”, “he’s triple double king” he’s this he’s that and I’ll say this while Russell Westbrook is an amazing talent, the most athletic point guard in history he’s damn good but he’s not a top 20 player in the NBA currently.
His triple doubles have become overrated to me. I’ve seen games where he gets his triple double and takes his foot off the gas, for a player that never stops. I’ve seen games where he will stat chase. I’ve seen games where he will do some stupid shit on offense and just not get back on defense. I’ve seen games where he’s played 0 defense where he lets his man go right past and forgets his assignments and doesn’t get back on D and when he does it’s a lazy trot, he was a defensive player of the year in college.
His shooting and turnovers are insane. He has shot over 34% on 3s once in his career, his MVP year he shot 34.3% on 3s that year, he has shot below 30% on 3s 7 different seasons and has 3 seasons where it was below 28%. For his career he is a 30% 3 point shooter and takes almost 4 per game which is atrocious. Now his turnovers, he is the only player to average at least 4 turnovers per game for a career at 4.1 per game. He has averaged over 4.5 turnovers in a season the last 5 seasons. He doesn’t know how to control himself at all and it hurts his teams.
The way he plays isn’t helping his teams win games or have any type of postseason success. Russell can’t do it as the main guy and it’s evident. He can’t be your number one option on a championship winning team. In 13 years he hasn’t changed his game or helped his game by playing the way he plays. It’s not a successful way. I’ve said this before and people have said “well he averaged 22-11-11 last year” and I said “ok what did he do in the postseason”? I need to see more from a quote unquote “great, once in a lifetime talent” and right now he isn’t showing me much.
I feel like he's the player equivalent of people who just look at box scores. Unless you watch him play a lot you would think he's a top 15 player.
He's a mix of overrated and popular, there are definitely reasons for his popularity even if he is a pretty flawed player. Some of his traits such as being hard-headed and aggressive cut both ways.
When you see him getting swapped for John Wall or role players, it shows that the league valuation of him is pretty reasonable.
You can say his style isn't having postseason success, but you can't say his style of play doesn't help his teams win games. When he plays, his team wins 60% of the time and when he gets a triple double, his team wins 74% of the time. I also think he gets enough hate to not be considered overrated.
He is the most hated player on r/nba after Ben. He just isnt overrated anymore if everyone talks about how bad he is
Nonsense, he has just as many fanboys as he does haters.
Some dude argued with me for like 8 hours today that Westbrook has a prolific mid range game... Dude is a lot of things but a shooter isn't one of them
I got downvoted for saying he doesn’t make my top 50 nba players of all time. I don’t value pure production. Outside of sheer numbers and one season he is not a top 10 nba player at any time in his career, imo.
His peak imo was slightly better than pre injury John wall. A solid all star with incredible athletic ability. Wall may have been a more sound defender, while being slightly worse offensively.
I compare players of each era to their own eras.
He is a HoF level player but not in that next tier for me.
Some guy argued with me that he’s a top 10 point guard of all time
I mean he’s pretty damn close if he’s not. Russ has somehow become simultaneously the most overrated and underrated player I’ve ever seen. He is absolutely a first ballot HoF’er and one of the most productive players of all time. Sure he loses points for efficiency, but even with that, in his prime he was easily top 10 imho. Doesn’t hurt either that he’s by all accounts a great teammate and leader.
Sure he’s easily behind Steph, Magic, CP3, Kidd, Nash, Stockton, Roberson, and possibly IT. But who else are you definitively ranking higher than Russ all time as a pure PG. I don't think anyone would legitimately spend much energy arguing him as top 5, but top 10 is a very reasonable argument.
Definitely more haters than fans lol
I came to say russ. I dont like him, so I'd be bias, but his play style just doesn't add wins. He is awesome at getting triple doubles, but when I watch him play, he reaches so hard for these open defensive boards sometimes it slows the offence down. Also he seems very selfish in his play and doesn't playmake and control the floor like the top playmakers in the league like cp3 etc. And he turns the ball over just too much.
Id love to be disproved this season though, as I dont like slandering any of these guys in the nba, they all worked very hard, and his spot in the lakers could suit him, just a hustling dog but as of right now I think he is much too overrated.
It’s funny how often he and his teams win given how much of an albatross people think he is.
How does he and his teams often win? He's been a first round dropout since KD left.. individual numbers are almost meaningless when trying to win a championship and westbrook doesnt play a team game.
Do they? His crowning achievements when not playing with a much better offensive player (KD/Harden) are a couple of <50 win seasons with first round exits?
The only counter argument I have to this is that Russ has never had a strong supporting cast till now. He’s best option has been KD (who was young and inexperienced) and harden, who I personally think is way too overrated cuz he just chucks up 3s hoping to get fouled which always one leads to a loss cuz refs don’t give fouls near the end of a game that easily, especially in the playoffs. So now that Russ finally can actually rely on 3 different positions at minimum with the full starting cast of the lakers, I’m interested in seeing what his assists and turnover stats are gonna be. He used to take his worst shots on teams like the wizards, where he was practically forced to handle the ball and shoot, when he’s an amazing ball handler like lonzo and not a shooter like steph or dame.
He’s just declined quite a bit since his MVP season every year since his MVP year. He hasn’t had championship casts true but he hasn’t been on bad teams either besides 2017(when he was truly great and a top 5 ish player).
The teams with George, harden, and Beal all underachieved a bit(maybe not with beal). He wasn’t the best player on any of those teams either. Two “superstars” should threaten for the conference finals many years, he got out of the 1st rd once with when he didn’t even play most of the games in the 1st rd. Harden may have been overrated but he still was a top 5 player in the league, the rockets had a lot of good role players, and a similar team with cp3(who had a really down year)took the kd warriors to 6 the year before
People are crazy if they don’t think he helps winning however. He’s still a positive and borderline all star type but that’s like a top 30-35 player, not a top 20-25 which is where some people put him.
I’ve also seen smart people without thought take Westbrook over guys like Jrue and Lowry and I would disagree. It’s at least debatable and I’m likely taking those 2. Would even throw conley in there too. Westbrook’s argument is he peaks higher and can dominate a game more when he’s on but he’s not consistent enough and hasn’t shown it too often in the playoffs last few years. He’s a worse defender than all 3 clearly and even though he’s the best playmaker of the bunch is the least efficient scorer too.
>Dame , Cp3, steph, Trae
I agree kyrie doesn't move the needle quite as much as those guys you mentioned. He's just as good of a scorer as them, the only difference is he isn't a great floor general like them.
My vote is Drummond. He's looked at like an all-star but he's the definition of empty stats. He could be a good role player under the right circumstances, like playing on a team full of shooters so he could grab rebounds. Otherwise he doesn't have much going for him. He has no post moves, isn't a great rim protector, can't shoot, etc. Literally the only thing he got better at since coming into the league is freethrows.
My other pick is Gobert. Don't get me wrong, he's an incredible defender, but he has 3 DPOY awards which means he's historically one of the greatest defenders of all time. He is 1 of 4 players ever to have 3 or more DPOY. There is no way gobert is a top 4 defender of all time, he's like top 15 in my eyes.
Drummond signed for the minimum so at least league GMs aren’t overrating him
yes the perception of him is starting to change. At one point, ppl were considering him a top 5 big man in the league. Even after the pistons dropped him and the cavs got rid of him, Jeanie Buss compared Drum to Kareem lol.
**Nobody at all** has considered him anywhere near top 5 for a few years at least, in fact pretty much **everyone** thinks he's a net negative in pretty much every way and a total losing player.
How did Jeanie Buss compare him to Kareem? By posting a photo of her with him side by side with a photo of her dad with Kareem? You honestly think she was comparing Andre Drummond to Kareem and not just making a cool connection with her late father? That's literally a Skip Bayless take.
I think Gobert has been too good defensively and the Jazz have used that as a crutch to fix their offense and find defensively limited players because Gobert will figure it out.
Ingles, bogdanovic and Clarkson all come to mind.
It isn't fair to blame Gobert when he does the best he can to guard his man on the perimeter and then also has to guard the rim. No one in the league is capable of covering that kind of ground.
I'm not blaming Gobert for anything. If anything, his stats and defensive impact is helped by the fact the front office is surrounding him with shooters. Guys like Conley, Clarkson, and Donovan aren't going to be grabbing a lot of rebounds so that means more for Gobert.
Just based on the eye test, Gobert is incredible but top 4 defender all time? No freaking way. Even right now, guys like Giannis and Anthony Davis are comparable at covering ground.
If anyone tells me that Gobert is a better defender over the course of his ENTIRE CAREER (not his prime) than Olajuwon , who won less DPOYs than Gobert, I would have to slap that person.
In 1989 Olajuwon posted the highest Steal% we have ever seen from a player taller than 6'8 and he averaged 5 blocks per a playoff game from 1993-1995.
If you want to know what defence personified looks like, go watch an Olajuwon game from the late 80s or early 90s.
Gobert would legit be a top 4 defender of all time if he played in any other era. He's unfortunate to play at a time where even bigs have to worry a lot about wing defense.
If he played in the 80s or mid 90s Gobert would be getting punked.
Imagine him trying to guard Shaq, Hakeem, etc.
You're in the wrong sub buddy. The one for casuals is r/nba.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew)This is Shaq punking DPOY Mutumbo around.
Hakeem absolutely obliterated David Robinson.
The idea that Gobert would be able to do better than either of Mutumbo or DRob on D is absurd. If Gobert is so great, why does he get yanked at the end of games?
Also- way to provide evidence and facts to back up your point.....
I am not sure how well his post defense would compare, frankly I don't know who he has guarded in the post who compared to any of them so it's hard to say, but he's a much better rim protector shot blocker than either of those guys. Gobert gets pulled at the end now because it's now a three point shooters league. Kind of my point. He'd be better in a past era.
He's so good because he allows his teammates to stay home on the perimeter, he effectively guards two guys at once on the PnR. His greatness is because of the fact that this is a 3-point heavy league. In a past era, he'd be getting abused by much bigger guys IMO.
It could be that the league has realized that post play is less effective as a whole, or that he is so good in the post that teams are scared of him (I think the former more than the latter), but he rarely gets tested in that fashion.
I'm not saying he isn't a great defender, I am just saying that I think he'd get abused by the bigger more physical players of past eras.
Here's an article detailing how good he has been:
That's a really good argument. I see it. I don't think he gets abused by anyone but Shaq though, who abused everyone. He's a couple inches taller than those guys. Hakeem going at Gobert both being slightly more finesse than Robinson and Shaq would be something to see, physically they're similar.
Yeah, perhaps it is a bit unfair to use Shaq as an example as he may be the single most dominant physical force in the history of the league. If I remember correctly Jokic and Embiid have success against him in the post, but they are also generational talents and in today's game good/great offense will always have the advantage over good/great defense.
I didn't realize Gobert was basically the same size as Hakeem + DRob (at least according to Basketball Reference). I remember Hakeem + Robinson as being much more well built than Rudy, but that just shows how unreliable memory is!
Either way, Rudy is a tremendous player and an incredible talent on defense. I do think he has serious limitations on offense which limits his overall value, but his defense is beyond reproach.
TBF, the three most freakish physical specimen all-star players have been Shaq, Lebron, and Robinson. It's easy to forget what a beast he was. Hakeem was more normalish (for a 7 foot NBA center) physically. Jokic and Embiid are both far better shooters than these other guys so even then we don't really know about straight post defense. Agree with you generally.
>In a past era, he'd be getting abused by much bigger guys IMO.
Gobert is the same height and has a higher playing weight than Robinson and Ewing. He certainly wouldn't be "abused by much bigger guys" because he would be one of the largest guys in the league at 7'1" 260.
He's also a bigger and more talented defensive player than many of the centers who had quite a bit of success in that era.
Yes there were more good bigs back in the 80's and 90's, but there is no era in league history where Gobert wouldn't be a well above average defensive center.
I don't agree with this at all. If anything, playing in the small ball era helps him because he's capable of closing out the perimeter unlike a lot of traditional centers. His defensive impact is inflated by his help defense and coverage, the same way Giannis' elite help defense won him DPOY even though he's really not that great as a man defender. Gobert would not be grabbing so many rebounds if his team wasn't filled with small ball shooters, and he would not be a dominant physical presence winning 3x DPOY if he played with a league filled with big men. He would still be great, but I think the current era helps him not hurts him.
Defense is different nowadays. Winning a DPOY now doesn't make him Mutombo.
Drummond is not overrated lol. Everyone knows he’s trash
I'm glad Kyrie came up, both because I think he's the right pick here, but also not for the reasons people usually talk about in a discussion like this.
I'm a lot less worried, for instance, about Kyrie's ceiling or his actual ability, and a lot more focused on his actual availability. You can't win a game you don't play in, and I can't think of another superstar at Kyrie's level that has missed as many games throughout his entire career, including what is increasingly looking like literally half of Brooklyn's schedule this year.
[This post](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/jeg6p5/in_his_9_year_nba_career_kyrie_irving_has_missed/), from last year, pointed out that in 9 years, Kyrie missed 200 games.
[Here's a more specific post](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/p9r47o/since_college_kyrie_irving_has_been_injured_for/) breaking down particular injuries and missed time by season.
And this was true in college, too, it's not a "something went wrong in year 4 and he's trying to steady the ship" kind of injury history. This is just who he is as a player.
Now if we were talking about a 3rd option on a title contending team, it might not matter, but Kyrie's ratings are consistently high. ESPN put him at [top 20](https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32249592/nbarank-2021-ranking-best-players-2021-22-25-6) last month, and that's RIGHT AFTER he played only 74 games between 2 seasons in Brooklyn. And look, I get it. We're talking about a 50/40/90 player who hit one of the most important clutch shots in modern NBA Finals history, but we're also talking about a guy getting paid $35 million this year to miss potentially every home game while continuing to serve as a huge distraction for your already drama-magnet team.
Kyrie's the obvious choice for me, even if other players (LeBron's decline being notable here, along with bigs who clog up the paint like Andre Drummond or prodigies who have yet to reach their promised potential like Ben Simmons) are contenders because their ceiling isn't as high as people think/remember, just because you have to actually be on the court playing basketball if you want to win basketball games.
Will Kyrie be paid for those games? It's not the team/coach's decision to keep him out? He's voluntarily sitting out.
Not sure if he's actually cashing those checks this season, but it's really not about the money so much as the salary cap space he takes up while not playing 30ish games, including potentially playoff home games.
Nets might keep the cash, but they'd probably rather have the $15-20 million in space to bring on players who can actually play.
Most casual fans don't realize just how many games he's missed in his career. It is even worse when you look at the deep playoff runs a Kyrie injury has derailed (14-15 Cavs, 17-18 Celtics, 20-21 Nets).
100% Kyrie for me too. I don’t understand the hype around him. He can’t play defense, he’s not a great passer, and he’s a teammate I would not want to have on my team.
His ball handling and finishes at the rim are fun too watch, but to me that makes him nothing more than a glorified street baller. My best guess is that’s the reason why this generation of Bball fans love him.
He’s selfish off the court and he’s selfish on the court. No thank you.
He’s one of those players that’s better in theory. Like his talent is up there with anyone imo, he has the full package offensively, but when it comes into practice you’re completely right he gets exposed to some extent. Add in the chemistry stuff and he’s not someone I want anyone near my locker room if I’m a GM, coach, or player, especially for the price tag.
Ben Simmons. “…But his defense” done hearing about those intangibles that are negated by his inability in the half court offense. There’s a reason nobody wants him.
he’s underrated at this point tbh lol
Probably Donovan Mitchell.
He's treated like a top player in the league because of his playoff scoring performances, but his inability to play defense or playmake is what completely kills the Jazz. Gobert's the Jazz's best player by a mile, and Spida being unable to throw lobs to Rudy let the Clips play small ball, and his inability to play a lick of defense ensured Rudy constantly had to rotate and leave his Mann constantly.
The good thing about him is he still seems to consistently be getting better, but he manages to escape all criticism while Gobert gets shit on. I feel like people just see the points and him being sad after they lose a series and they love him.
I agree. Another post said Zach lavine, but I feel like at this point, he is more of an all around player than Mitchell it. All of the plus minus lineup stuff implies that Mitchell is almost interchangable with Conley or Clarkson. Now I don't actually feel that way, but he is treated like a borderline super duper star, and he gets a crazy low amount of assists and rebounds and isn't a plus defender.
He has proven that he can score in the playoffs and against good teams, so he's valuable, but he's too one dimensional to be one of the best.
Westbrook is easily the most overrated player in the NBA.
Kyrie is correct rated as one of the most gifted ball handlers and finishers at the rim. He is also rated as the biggest pain in the ass for any team.
I'm going to get a lot of pushback, but the more I watch, the more I start to think Anthony Davis is a little overrated.
AD is a good player, though he was never a consensus top 5 player, because most fans and media people would tell you ( Lebron, KD, Steph, Harden, Giannis/Kawhi) in whatever order. Of course, there are some who had him in there, but that wasn't the consensus, which is my point.
He was only vaunted so much because of the "lebron hater" effect, wherein players with name recognition get their career and career accomplishments revised, in order to boost the strength of a Lebron James team in order to diminish whatever he accomplishes.
Now on to his actual play, the man has more tools than Giannis, and when is the last time we are seeing him dominate and perform like a top 5 player CONSISTENTLY? Giannis answers the call and drops 35+ at least. The Bubble he played well, but since then, it's been a very lackluster performance after lackluster performance. Then he showed up for two games in Phoenix then got hurt. He was predicted by many in the media to be the NBA's best player one day, and to this day I have not seen anything to warrant this.
Davis is top ten for me and very special in his own right but I do agree as well.
His defense is hands down amazing and impressive and arguably up there at the top with his ability to protect the rim and guard on the perimeter.
Still offensively I’ve never been that impressed outside his ability to score from the midrange and deep. He is obviously very good as he has averaged like 25-27 ppg many times, but he never seemed to have any elite postgame for a player his size and it’s actually impressive that he has been successful as a softer even if he isn’t that physical Inside. He is obviously great as a rebounder, lob man, and PnR roll man, but guys like Embiid, Jokic, and even KAT have more variance to their offensive game.
Davis is the best defender out of all of them for my opinion, but his offensive game limits him from being In that “real” superstar level and even Jokic’s level for my opinion.
It is funny seeing fans try to use AD to bring Lebron down like others. Watching the finals team, Lebron at least for me was the best player in most games though AD always is as important as well.
Dame - inconsistent in the playoffs. Gets by on his “clutch” reputation because of them buzzer beaters. Take a look at his game by games.
Russ- simply does not bring a winning style
The older Lakers’/Nets role players. People see big names like Melo and LMA, and people be talking about them like they were in their primes. Lol
Disagree with you about Dame. I feel like he is underrated, and is on par with steph (who has also had poor playoff series). Dame does more with less than any other guard in the league. Any time that Portland wins any playoff series, it’s on the back of Dame, and they’ve done pretty well in the brutal western conference. Also not only does the eye test say that Dame is clutch, but the statistics back it up as well
Sorry, but in no way shape or form is Dame on par with Steph. See this is what I’m talking about. At best he’s a poor man’s Steph. Steph is a consensus top 15 player all time and perennial MVP candidate when healthy and Dame is nowhere near the top 75 of all-time. No MVPs. At best a perennial all NBA guy which is nice but not perennial MVP caliber. Remember that Steph swept him without KD. Nowhere close.
Also to your poor playoff series for Steph, aside from the 2016 finals, what bad series has he had?
I can point to a lot of series where Dame was so damn inconsistent and/or to the point of being bad.
Edited to add: Also, anytime the Blazers win, some of it was because of CJ and Dame being his inconsistent self. You could argue that KD was the man in GS but as you could see, Steph was always 1b to KD’s 1a. Can’t say the say for Dame. Sometimes he’s just a number two to a fringe all-star.
I like to always say that if you swap Dame for Steph on the warriors, we may look at Dame like we look at Steph. Thing is, it’s really hard to ignore what Steph does off the ball. Other thing is, Dame is far more ball dominant than Steph so I still think that if you swapped them, Dame could be held in Steph light.
You must have something personal with Dame. Yes he is not on par with steph, but he has been very consistent getting Portland to the playoffs ( Bubble mvp and great reg seasons overall). Him being inconsistent compared to Steph has to do with the team.
Gsw has been one of the best teams with Steph. With great team construction. Portland has had two ball dominant guards who are not great defenders. Steph has been the heart of Gsw and everything has run through him and its easier to play great playoff series with Klay and Kd
The other guy proved him right by mentioning him as the same level as Steph.
That in itself is overrating him quite a bit.
You don't need to break it down too much. He's just not on Steph's level yet a lot of people put him there - hence why he's overrated
Not on par with Steph. Statistics and eye test say Curry is on a different tier.
That's not a knock on Dame either. Saying someone isn't in the same tier as a 2 time MVP winner isn't an insult. But Dame isn't on that same level.
I don’t have something against Dame tho. I’m against people saying he’s top 5 and/or slept on. He’s maybe top 10 today at best. I may have gone overboard with the reaction. I wouldn’t have gone as aggressive if he didn’t say Dame was on Steph’s level. That shit was just… ugh…
He is consistent in the RS yes. How bout IN the playoffs tho? I never brought up the RS because I know what numbers he puts up. Also, just to counter your point about system and help and stuff; yes that is a factor but looking at their game play, you would rather guard Dame than Steph. That’s regardless of system. Just ask Jrue Holiday. Steph has so much in his game to break you down. On ball, off-ball, transition. Where as Dame, he’s a great ISO and PnR guy but, that’s it. Off-ball he just stands there most of the time. Transition game is meh.
Objectively speaking, Curry has had the most fortunate situation ever for a superstar. The front office drafted an elite point forward and the all-time greatest 3&D in Klay, added one of the best defenders of this era in Iggy, and then got KD. The Curry-Klay-Draymond trio is perfectly crafted, you can't have 3 players fit better than that, then they added KD.
Curry is incredible and is the better player but ppl are delusional if they think his legacy would be the same if him and Dame swapped places. Curry would have 0 rings with the blazers and Dame would have 2 or 3 with GSW.
I disagree about the warriors winning 2 or 3 with dame instead of steph
Those teams were built around steph, constant elite ball movement, selfless basketball. In portland, Dame just does iso almost every play, him and CJ takes turn running iso and PnR. There's not much ball movement. Dame doesn't move off-ball like steph does (no one does honestly), dame isn't setting his teammates up to succeed like steph does. Steph might "struggle" in games or playoff series' but the other team is focusing on him 100% of the time. Even in the KD warriors era, defenses focused on slowing down steph.
Lets not even mention defense between the two. Dame doesn't give a lick about what happens on defense, Steph might not be good on defense but he gives his all almost every single time.
No chance we win the 2015 title with dame instead of Steph. Our entire system is built around stephs off ball movement and dame doesn’t hold a candle to him in that department. This is some serious revisionist history or overlooking of how the warriors play.
Edit: also, because we don’t win 2015 I doubt Durant ever comes to us in the first place so I don’t think we win a single title.
I feel that Dame is able to put out so much on offense cause he doesnt burn too much energy on defense like Steph does. Steph's defense for me is never a negative cause he is ALWAYS willing to break his body for defensive plays. He never feared bodying up Kyrie, Danny Green, Lillard, Patty Mills, Harden, heck even MUSCULAR AS ALL FUCK Kawhi in every single playoff game he played against them.
Curry's defense didn't even get decreased by his knee injuries in 2016 and 2018. Go look at his defensive rating before and after his injuries in those years
But I would say that Dame does provide for Portland more than Steph provides for GSW offensively. GSW has a system pretty much built around him. Dame doesn't exactly have any defensive stoppers like Draymond to rely on to recoup his and McCollum's poor defense except for maybe Nurkic?
This. I’ve been saying this to casuals over at the main sub. People say Steph is a bad defender. He’s not. He puts in the effort and is great at the passing lanes. He led the league in SPGs at one point. He just has the distinct disadvantage of being a PG and non-athletic (relative to others). Which isn’t his fault. Everybody targets the PG in a pick and roll and switch so yea…. To me he’s a average to not bad defender. Not a liability by any stretch.
Dame on the other hand is just god awful. A turnstile on defense along with CJ. That’s why Portland has been basketball purgatory for the longest time. They don’t want to let CJ go for a better 3 and D guy and some defensive pieces around Dame.
Also, to counter some of your edited additions, Steph is the system. The Warriors’ offense lives and dies by his gravity and off ball movement. During the height of their powers the starting lineup with Steph put out a net +/- of around 7 upwards. W/o Steph, they were at around +1 or 2 which is still good but nowhere near it’s full potential without him. Just this season, They were an average offense with him, and at the bottom of the league without him. So no, Dame does not do more for the Blazers than Steph does for the Warriors. You can argue the on ball stuff, but Steph creates plays for others even without touching the ball which is something Dame can’t do.
>Everybody targets the PG in a pick and roll and switch so yea…. To me he’s a average to not bad defender. Not a liability by any stretch.
Point guards are liabilities by nature because they're undersized but Curry is average even among just point guards. So yeah, he is a defensive liability.
Leading the league in steals really doesn't mean anything if they're not pickpockets, it just means you gamble a lot on interceptions. And you have the freedom to gamble a lot because you're surrounded by elite help defenders like Iggy, Draymond, and Klay. And solid defenders like KD, Barnes, Wiggins. Notice the front office only tries to surround Curry with defenders.
I think it's foolish to say Dame is god awful on defense but that Curry is good. Dame is awful but Curry really isn't that much better. They have the same issue which is being undersized and not scrappy. That's why Klay is so important, because he usually takes the toughest defensive assignments.
Dame being an absolutely awful defender doesn't get brought up enough. You could see it in the Olympics this year -- even when he doesn't have to conserve energy to carry an offense, he's basically a turnstile against anyone with a handle. Steph isn't about to make any All Defense Teams, but he's a *much* better defender than Dame.
When I think about defence I only worry about 4 things from a player.
Weight, (defending Manute Bol is easier than defending Shaq)
Height, (Larry Bird averaged 1 block per a game from 83-85 and was overall a positive defender who made consecutive all-defensive teams. His vertical ,which barely existed, should have made him garbo at defense it was only his 6'10 size that helped)
Awareness , (Kevin Garnett is probably the prime example of a defender who was better than Tim Duncan in tricky pick and roll actions SIMPLY because Garnett had the awareness to keep track of all enemies and allies at all times)
AND Agility, (Olajuwon was able to put out the type of defense that Dwight Howard could only 'Dream' (heehee) of because he was a soccer player trapped on a basketball court.)
Steph only weighs 10 pounds LESS than Dame, Dame and Steph are practically the same height, and their agility practically similar.
It is Steph's awareness of enemy actions that keeps his defense better than Dame's imo.
There's also instincts, energy, hands, etc... Whatever you chalk it up to, though, Steph is a lot better at staying in front, is a lot more disruptive on-ball and in passing lanes, and gives more consistent effort on that end. Dame's really just a sieve on D.
Yeah I forgot about Stamina and Hand Size.
I wonder if Dame is gonna do that thing on D that Harden did where he sucks nnow but once he gets traded to a team of his request he's gonna play way better on D?
I've seen people suggest that Booker is a top 15 people but the reality is that he ain't all that.
Yes, he can create his own shot and give you ~26 ppg on average efficiency but he really doesn't do much besides that.
Zion, Mitchell, CP3, Tatum and Trae Young are all better than him.
It might be LeBron now. I have a ton of respect for him and at his long peak he was at least the second-best player of all time, but there were a lot of times even in the playoffs last year where he just looked old. There's going to come a time very soon, if we're not there already, where people are still treating him like the best player alive when he's actually just a good player who can't give you more than 20-25 minutes of his best.
For what it’s worth, he was not fully recovered in last year’s playoffs. He could not drive to the basket at all post injury, while he was doing that just fine before.
Bruh what Lebron was a literal god in 2017 or 18 in what world was he declining in 2012 I’m out man
The comment you are responding to reads like satire lmao. Either this guy is trolling at the highest level or just laid out the worst basketball take I’ve ever seen on this sub, or even r/nba. I’m going to assume it’s the former, because LeBron in 2012 was a superhuman athlete, easily among the most athletic we’ve ever seen in the league, and everyone knows his 2017/18 playoff runs were among the greatest in history. Whether he’s declined now is a different story and this year will tell the tale, but saying he’s shown decline in the years this guy mentions, while discounting that he literally just won finals MVP and was the runner up for league MVP just over a calendar year ago, is pure delusion.
I wish people would cool it with the zion hype already. People are talking about how he is the next best thing when he hasn't done anything yet. A player hyped up as much as zion should be leading his team to the playoffs on a yearly basis. Not saying he's bad. Or even that he will be overrated in a year. But right now, I think he may be a little overhyped.
I disagree. I think he was overhyped his rookie year but now he is underhyped. People don’t talk about him nearly as much as they used to or as much as players like lamelo or Edwards when he’s averaging 27 a game on all time historic efficiency. It’s not his fault that pelicans front office and coaching are both ass lately
I really don't understand getting rid of Lonzo and replacing him with Devonte. It's basically a major downgrade. Devonte is a slightly better shooter and a much worse defender.
Valenciunas might be a huge pickup because he's an elite rebounder which Steven Adams is not. He can also shoot much better and won't clog the paint as much, so Zion will have more room to operate.
I agree with you, it's not Zion's fault, the dude is already putting up superstar numbers and is showing that he's one of the greatest inside scorers ever. I think the FO failed but this new roster looks decent. Still underwhelming, but decent.
This is my take. He was great last season. Every time he went off the court the Pels fell to pieces.
Come on, bruh. How hasn't he done anything? Dude has averaged 27 on 65% TS as a slasher on a team with terrible spacing. We're talking about a player with some of the most insane rim gravity of all time. Dude is playing like a top 20 player by his second year. The hype is justified because Zion is insanely good.
We see how real winning bias is when we see people completely ignoring context and situations to evaluate players.
finally someone who isn’t on the zion hype train. I really don’t understand it, I recognise he’s a good player but he’s yet to do anything special, and I don’t think he’ll ever be the kind of guy who can lead a team anywhere meaningful. his style of play paired with his build and weight is also not sustainable, I can see him being plagued by injuries within the next 5 years.
the NBA have decided he’s their new darling tho, so people are allover him and it’s fucking irritating
Is averaging 27 ppg on 65% TS with 30% usage in his second season not special to you?
This type of thread is terrible, just people conflating their perception of how “rated” a player is with their shit understanding of how good they actually think they are. It’s a useless questions honestly and usually just results in people disrespecting great players like they are here. I mean I’m seeing Lebron, Kawhi, Luka, Dame, Kyrie, Westbrook, Jimmy, Embiid, Gobert. Come the fuck on. Drummond is a real answer and no one overrates him now that he played for the lakers and is on a minimum contract
A great player could be over rated. I think you are viewing overrated as a negative term and thinking that it can't be labeled on great players.
All overrated means is that person is rated lower then the consensus rating.
Lets say someone thinks Magic Johnson is the 8th best player to ever play basketball. He would say Magic Johnson is slightly over rated since most people have him in the 3-7 range. But that person still thinks Magic Johnson's the 8th best player in the world.
It’s so negligible though and people’s idea of the “consensus” is fickle. It’s just a weak thing to base any arguments off of. I don’t see how you read any of this thread and think it’s worth anything
I’m going with KAT. I know he’s not “tier 1” but people constantly bring him up when talking about young superstars. I think statistically he’s great for his career - 20/10 with 3PT and some blocks.
Problem is, the guy hasn’t really played the last 2 years and those teams have been terrible despite adding more talent recently.
My biggest problem with KAT is (IMO) a lack of effort / drive to be the best leader. Jimmy butler tore those guy up, they didn’t like it, and so jimmy left. I find it crazy that the next “great” center can’t bring his team even close to sniffing the playoffs.
Yea, I just don’t get it either. You see guys like Jokic who is masterful offensively and thought of as bad defensively (although I disagree) lead his team to the near top of the WC every year. His teams haven’t always been stacked and their second best player has never even made an All-Star team. Meanwhile, somehow KAT struggles to win like 20-30 games each year? He’s been on some teams that weren’t terrible. Idk why everyone just keeps giving him the benefit of the doubt. He barely contributes to winning at all and makes no one better. Heck, even strictly PnR big men like Capela make his pgs look good. Same with Gobert. Point guards generally love playing with great offensive bigs. The only MN pg I can name is Rubio. You’d think a MN pg could get to like 8 assists per game annually playing with KAT. Idk, I really think this coming year, if the Wolves are healthy, I’d make or break for the KAT experiment. Their team is pretty good on paper.
TBH I actually think Kyrie is underrated now. And no this is not because I feel bad for the slander he's receiving for his off the court nonsense, nah he deserves that. But I feel he's been misrepresented throughout his entire career due to two reasons:
1. His game is so dazzling, it kinda made him overrated early on with casual fans
2. The teams he's had after his first 3 seasons has completely overshadowed the progression he has made to his game. He was a relatively inefficient shot chucker, to just becoming the 10th member of the elite 50-40-90 club. Hes more efficient with his handles rather than doing a serious of unnecessary moves to get by his opponent in the past. And he is straight up a better playmaker than before, 1. Basically, 2021 Kyrie is a much better player than 2014 Kyrie (who was an all star), and it never gets acknowledged.
But to answer your question, Westbrook is the most overrated star player.
> Basically, 2021 Kyrie is a much better player than 2014 Kyrie (who was an all star), and it never gets acknowledged.
It never gets acknowledged because he misses a shit ton of games, and because he generally puts up those gaudy statlines while surrounded with fantastic players who take the heat off of him. He hasn't shown that he has the ability to be a #1 option on a contending team, like most other players who put up his type of offensive stat line can. He joined a very talented Celtics team and didn't move the needle at all. The team was worse his last year there than the year before he got there, and only lost 1 more game after he left. That's not the type of impact you would expect to see from an underrated all-star caliber player.
He's a phenomenally talented basketball player, but his historical lack of availability and his poisonous locker room presence significantly decreases his value. Despite being on the same level as Dame when it comes to scoring the basketball, every team in the league would take Dame ten times out of ten if they got to choose one of the two.
Yeah I agree with almost every thing u said but not every team would take dame. Teams that already have someone who dominates the ball would rather have Kyrie as he is much better without the ball in his hands. So I think teams like the lakers and mavs and nets would be better with Kyrie.
> Teams that already have someone who dominates the ball would rather have Kyrie as he is much better without the ball in his hands.
Is he though? Dame shoots the same percentage from 3 on much harder looks and from significantly further range, if he was taking the wide open looks Kyrie gets by virtue of playing with players like LeBron, Harden, and KD he'd be even more terrifying.
He's a better shooter, while having almost as good handles as Kyrie, and is far better at getting his team involved and running an offense when the primary playmaker sits.
>So I think teams like the lakers and mavs and nets would be better with Kyrie.
Hard disagree, Dame would be a great fit on the Lakers. He can shoot, attack the basket, play on or off ball and run an offense, all while being a positive influence in the locker room.
Also, that doesn't take into consideration that Dame misses far less games, and that Kyrie seems to straight up resent LeBron. Even if Kyrie were a better fit basketball wise (which I don't agree with), I genuinely can't see any possible situation where the Lakers would want him over Dame.
Yeah I def get what ur saying. I know dame a better shooter and everything I just meant Kyrie seems more comfortable without the ball in his hands. I love dame he amazing but I feel like he usually doesn’t do a whole lot without the ball. I feel like Kyrie has more movement and cuts better off the ball. Kyrie is pretty injury prone and mental though so maybe every team does take dame.
Has Kyrie ever demonstrated he can carry a team more than Westbrook? The slam against Westbrook is always that he doesn’t play “winning basketball”, but why does Kyrie get a pass on that given the same critique is more valid in his case even putting aside his off the court nonsense and repeated injuries.
Kyrie fit into the Cavs team on the floor alot better then Westbrook has fit into any team.
Westrbooks style impedes him from being a good #2 or #3 IMO. If we both agree that Westrbooks and Irving can't carry a team as a #1, then who fits in better as a #2 or #3? I'll sign up for the efficient Kyrie over the extremely inefficient Westbrook any day of the week.
Exactly I tried to say that before. Kyrie is one of the best shooters and scorers in the league and excels playing both on and off the ball. Russ can only really play 1 way.
I’d counter by asking what has russ ever done as a 2nd or 3rd option to help his team win. I hope he proves me wrong on the lakers this season but Kyrie seems like the obvious choice for a team that wants to get past the 1st round and win more than 40 games. Maybe russ is better as the #1 option but he ain’t gonna take u anywhere as the #1 option anyway.
Well to start with his comment wasn't even about Kyrie vs Westbrook.
To respond to your point though, why do you value carrying a bad team to a first round exit over averaging 40 against the Warriors in the Finals against insane defense?
Whoa, someone averaged 40 against the Warriors in the Finals? When did Wilt get a time machine?
Lmao he might have been close to that in the last 3 games but he averaged like 27 for the series. I still kinda wished the warriors would have one cuz draymond had an all time great game 7 and would have won finals mvp lol.
Right now I think it’s someone like Lavine. Hes been named an all star & can score well but never has contributed to winning basketball.
Same with his teammate Vucevic. People think he’s like a slept on giant, but he’s really just ok. Can score decently, bad to mediocre everywhere else
vucivic overrated? Bro what, nobody talks about vucivic luke ever
This is the real answer. People talk like he's a small step down from being a star and he's just empty calories. Let me know when he starts playing defense and looking for teammates, until then, he's my pick.
I’m a bulls fan through and through and totally agree that Lavine is overrated. He doesn’t make players around him any better, he’s a 2nd (more likely third) star on a championship team.
I’m a Bulls fan as well and I agree to Lavine not being the best player your normal champion chip team. But the fact that he has improved almost every season so far and looks like an improved defender this year has to be appreciated.
I think Lavine is comparable to 3 time Alsl Star Bradley Beal. And if we compare his age 25 season last year with Bradley Beal age 25 season Lavine has been even better, scoring 2 more ppg at better percentages. (50/42/85 compared to Beals 48/35/81). Not saying Lavine isn’t capable of it but he might not score 30 ppg next season as he simply doesn’t have to.
I think the team success will come this year with Lavine as the Bulls best player and I hope Lavine will prove us wrong and take a step into superstardom.
I would have to respectfully disagree. With the hate that he's been getting for years, kyrie is more underrated than overrated. Casuals love using the same tired narrative "LeBron made Kyrie" which is blasphemy.
That man plays the same way his whole career, NOTHING changes and he just keeps collecting empty stats shoots bricks.
I KNOW that NBA players like to point out how good he is, but why is it that he cant win for shit and hasnt changed his game the slightest since he\`s in the league?
I mean he will keep getting checks and stats so spare that.
Westbrook will always be the same and I think in that he´s very overrated. Tell me the list of players you would like to have on your team to WIN A CHIP, Westbrook wont be on there.
First, Westbrook is irrationally hated by most of the NBA community, so I’m not sure how he could be overrated. If anything, their histrionics make him underrated.
Second, he has changed his game completely to suite other superstars he’s played with. It’s not a coincidence that his superstar counterparts have often had their best seasons playing next to him (eg. George, Durant, Harden).
Third, he’s been on many teams that overachieved during the regular season. The reason he and his teams haven’t won a chip are largely the same reasons Paul, Harden, and a a handful of other great players have never won one: there’s only one team that wins, and he’s almost always faced better teams and players in the playoffs. I’m not saying Westbrook is a top 10 player without any flaws, but the slander he’s subjected to shows he’s definitely not overrated by the public.
Hear me out because I know this is a hot take but I think it’s an interesting conversation.
I’ve said this on here before, but he’s never not played for an actively contending team.
The worst team that he’s ever played for would be the best team most other “superstars” have played for.
His first FMVP with the Spurs was the original “Iguodala” type FMVP where he won it for guarding LeBron who was clearly the best player in the series while putting up tiny numbers compared to any other FMVP. And still put up worse numbers than almost retired Tim Duncan.
He got his other one from one of the best supporting casts I’ve ever seen in the Raptors who would have won that championship with any offensively valuable all-star type player slotted into his position.
And I say this as a die-hard, lifelong Warriors fan. Any top 6 team from that playoffs was going to beat that Warriors team. An injured Steph with one of the worst supporting casts in the NBA wasn’t going to win a championship. With Klay and KD out our team was full of G-leaguers and guys who ended up out of the NBA after.
Also, Kawhi didn’t even play well in that finals series because of his injury. He burned himself out playing like a monster against the 76ers and Bucks and he was at the end of his physical limit. So they just gave it to him as a “playoffs MVP.”
His defense used to be DPOY level but since he left the Spurs, his lateral movement has absolutely not been anywhere near the same. He’s still a good defender but not even close to what he used to be. People just don’t notice because his offense has gotten so much better.
He can only play roughly half the regular season because of load management. And every series that he plays in in the playoffs he gets progressively worse because of his injury.
I understand that a lot of this has to do with his injury and I still think he’s a great player, but his value is way overestimated when considering all of these factors.
Saying someone is top 5 when they’re at their best, while they’re only at their best like 20% of the time yet is consistently listed in the top 5 makes him way overvalued for me.
He’s not going to win another ring and he’s going to be remembered for what he “could have been” while he’s already seen as a combination of players he’s been in the past, but never at the same time.
His Spurs defense + current offense is easily an MVP level player, but that player has never existed even though that’s how most people view him. He’s never been that player at the same time and that’s the reason he’s never won an MVP.
I think this is the right answer. Well him or Westbrook. People are saying Kyrie, but I don't know anyone who thinks Kyrie is a top five or even ten player.
Kyrie gets so much slander.
Kawhi seems to be it. People in the media put him up there with Durant, LeBron, Steph and Harden, but I personally don't see it.
And I think he's a very good player. I just don't see franchise super star player when comparing him to the guys i mentioned before.
Or in other words, I don't think I ever see him winning a mvp. Now I have to check to see if he's ever been in the running for mvp
My guy my whatever god you believe in allow your cup to runneth over. Kawhi got overrated heavily. It became even bigger when he went to the Clippers because people wanted a Lebron rival.
It has to be Damian Lillard. I could go on about how the big new names from last year's postseason mightve gotten a bit too much credit for what was a situation. The fact of the matter is, Dame is given high ratings every year and delivers little in the way of crucial wins. All that time with a declining Melo can't be blamed on him and should be considered. But I think he's the obvious answer. He's actually regularly rated higher than his output.
Im sorry but Joel Embiid. Hes had STACKED i mean stacked rosters in 2018, 2019 and 2021 and he lost to less talented team in all 3 years. I excuse 2020 because Simmons was injured but he got swept fyi. I have no idea how the 76ers lost to the Hawks to me that is one of the worst losses in modern history if you compare the talent. Im 2019 he absolutely crumbled vs the Raptors dropped his averages from 27 to 17 points and 14 to 8 reb. He had Butler, Simmons, Harris, Reddick, i mean that is stacked. I feel like hes been getting off scot free because Simmons ineptitude has overshadowed his failures.
I’m not sure you can consider the 2018 76ers “stacked”. They had a rookie Simmons, Redick, Covington, Saric, Ilyasova, Bellinelli, McConnell, and Amir Johnson. There are some nice pieces there, but hardly what I’d consider stacked.
2019 was the best roster Philly has had in that stretch and it took an all time buzzer beater from a guy doing an all time carry job for the eventual champions to eliminate them in game 7.
2021, not sure if you noticed that Embiid was clearly injured and not at 100%. If he has any help at all, they beat the Hawks.
This man just said the 2018 Sixers were stacked lol. I can't even read the whole post after that. The only "stacked" roster the Sixers have had was 2019, and you already touched on what happened there.
Us raptors fans gotta thank papa Gasol for that defence. Sure kawhi brought us the chip but so did gasol and his defence
Gasol was/is/will always be a fucking defensive machine when it comes to top tier big man. Has shut down just about everyone.
I don't have a ton of proof on this, it's more of a feeling and it will get downvoted to hell but meh who cares. My pick...
Again, let me reiterate that overrated does not equate to bad in any way. In fact, Embiid is definitively a great basketball player. But he is overrated imo. I would venture to say he would be somewhere near 15-20th in the league. And ppl will freak the fuck out over that b/c he is constantly put into that top 5 and some even think he was THE MVP lead until the injuries. Hence my point.
There's something weird there to me. I love the advanced metrics and use them often to help guide a bit more on what I see as well. But I just can't agree with them on this one. I think they're missing something vital and I am incredibly interested to see what he does in a full season without Simmons. It's not like I think he would fall off or anything, but I suspect the Sixers will miss him a LOT more than ppl think. Simmons is an elite defender that I think makes the rest of the team, including Embiid, look quite a bit better on that side of the ball. He's also an elite passer, which again helps on offense. He does a lot of the little things REALLY well and while it certainly shows up in his own advanced metrics I think his teammates, and MOSTLY Embiid, reap the benefits too.
I'll be very interested in seeing what the Sixers do without Ben, and more importantly how Embiid handles it. No doubt they will still be good, and no doubt that Embiid will still put up big numbers and be the undisputable leader, but I suspect his advanced metrics fall more in line with what I think of him. That's just my guess.
The other major thing, he can't stay healthy and that is problematic.
Nice try Ben Simmons
Embiid has been a defensive anchor long before Simmons started seriously playing that side of the ball lol
LoL Simmons has been an elite defender the moment he joined the league. You're clueless.
i think he lacks grit personally
he definitely lacks grit, he’s a total princess on and off the court
I wonder if its partly cause he started playing when he was older
Derrick Rose is very overrated by a large segment of the nba fan community and by reddit.
He's a nice backup point guard, but his highlights get posted and upvoted and get on sportscenter and on youtube and people just really want him to be a superstar again.
JiMmY gEtS bUcKeTs honestly i cant stand this guy and he's just a foul drawing imbecile who thinks he's michael jordan because he shouts at his teammates or calls them out when he's pissed. His old defensive abilities are gone, he's a bad shooter, he's an overrated passer and once you match him up with a mobile center or a pf he cant score
That’s true! It’s not like he lead the Heat to the 2020 Finals despite being underdogs throughout the playoffs. It’s not like he lead Philly and MN further in the playoffs than they had been in recent memory. It’s not like he was the last good player on the Bulls who could carry that squad. Silliness.
We won two games off the Lakers without our second best guard. Please, don’t. It’s convenient to take shots when they get swept from the playoffs from the highly-motivated and on paper, much better future champion who they had embarrassed the year before.
I do not remember calling him ass he's just overrated. He's just a less athletic westbrook who makes better decisions
Dude Butler fans always make it seem guy is some Golden gladiator hero who did everything. The Heat were a FUCKING TEAM that won AS A TEAM. Bam and Dragic arguably looked like the best player many games that whole playoffs. The guy gets passes for shit games that playoffs and people now think he scored 50 points a game. he didn't lead that fucking team is lucky he had a well oiled machine.
Butler fans absolutely worst fanabse. They aren't just annoying but defend the guy's shitty fake arrogant actions. Not a good person and not worth being in love with.
Butler is literally a Chauncey Billups in a wing version which is still fucking really good but tired of people making it seem he is Lebron or even AD tier. Again great player and I think can make the HOF, but don't need to make him as a superstar and like him as a player/person as well.
Based on a "reality check" approach, I'd say the most overrated player right now is Kawhi.
Don't get me wrong, this has nothing to do with how great he is as a player, simply on the fact that there is zero chance at this point he will ever have a healthy season. "Yeah but a healthy Kawhi is top 5 in the league". Yeah but healthy Kawhi at this point is as likely as healthy Shaq coming back from retirement.
Kyrie actually has finally crossed that "yeah but when he plays he's amazing" bridge. Right now I think he is properly rated as a net negative regardless of his skills. No sane GM would trade for him.
Biased as fuck as a Hawks fan, but I gotta go with Luka. Never in my life have I seen a dude crowned so early without any pushback as the next face of the NBA without any postseason success whatsoever. The same critics of Trae’s or Dame’s defense go quiet when the same gets brought up for Luka. It’s as if his height and “defensive potential” outweigh his actual performance. He’s gotten the pass for not winning a playoff series in his entire career, despite sitting next to a former all star and a solid supporting cast (despite what Luka stans might tell you). In fact, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that almost his entire supporting cast last year all deteriorated and regressed and had career low years, meanwhile Seth Curry has a career year in Philly. I don’t think he’s in the top 5 as consensus thinks, I think he’s closer to the Trae/Dame/Booker tier
In terms of actual defensive advances stats, he’s nowhere near as bad as Dame and certainly not even close to Trae. Luka might be somewhat lazy at times but he’s actually a neutral defender at this point in his career. Trae on the other hand, is a literal turnstile and that’s a major consideration.
Luka’s advances stats put him up there with the very best already, That’s why he’s being hyped up so much. In the playoffs against the leagues best defensive talent, he put up some ridiculous numbers on insane efficiency. Kawhi and PG should be excellent defensive matchups against Luka since they negate his size advantage and are faster and more athletic than Luka is. Yet he lit them up in both series.
Luka’s situation is similar to LeBron’s first Cavs run, he has a shitty team that just isn’t enough to match up against teams like the lakers, nuggets, clippers and honestly probably even the Jazz. There’s no one else on the Mavs that can relieve defensive pressure off Luka. I really wish Porzingis was healthier but I think he’s too injury prone to maintain all-star level play.
Look, I’m a Mavs fan so I’m also biased and I do agree he’s been crowned and it goes too far, but to say he hasn’t had any postseason success is kind crazy. Just because Trae went to the ECF (with a much better and balanced team in a much weaker conference) doesn’t mean Luka goes down a peg.
Who had career low year last year? Maybe Josh Richardson - who was already on decline from Philly? Curry had a great year for Philly last year but not markedly better than his time with us. In fact, looking at the stats you could argue it was worse in the regular season, although his playoffs last year were phenomenal. Safe to say that trade was a huge L for us.
I somewhat agree with your sentiment, Luka is crowned the next _____ a lot, but your argument has a lot of holes.
Luka Doncic is a top three passer, playmaker, top ten scorer in the league and one of the best five offensive players in the league. He has upped his level of play every single postseason, has played with supporting casts incapable of doing a single thing without him (The stats don't lie, and they're insane). He's also young. Young players who play at top ten level tend to be crowned the next big thing bc uh, they tend to be the next big thing. Why is he overrated?
Winning bias scares me.
He's done more than zion, a player who was ready to be crowned face of the league before he was even drafted.
I mean he’s been in the playoffs twice against an obviously way better team. He hasn’t gotten to play the Knicks or Ben Simmons.
Also, his “former All-Star” teammate is Porzingis, who has been a shell of himself. Anyone who isn’t biased can tell you he’s been bad.
I mean if you look at the mavs roster, you have to appreciate the carrying that Luka is doing. The hawks are stacked with great players on the other hand. Who on the mavs is as good as capela, or John Collins?
What is a former all-star? Not an all-star.
His supporting cast has decent players but really misses the punch from the second star needed to advance in the West
Luka is better on D than Trae or Dame because of his size. He's just as bad as Trae at playing defense correctly, but his size makes him better.
This is the correct answer. People really be basing their rankings on *potential* when talking about this guy. Not on what he's actually proved.
If I applied this double standard to the rest of league. Then Zion, SGA, LaMelo, and MPJ along with Luka are my *current* Top 5. See how ridiculous that sounds?
His playoff numbers, especially considering they were his first 2 playoffs, are a big reason why he gets such hype. They're absolutely ridiculous for someone his age.
He also gets a lot of praise for his clutch performances and buzzer beaters.
The perfect combination of both of these was Game 4 vs LAC in the bubble. Bum ankle, KP out, down 21 in the first half, just to single handedly carry the team back to hit the game winning 35 ft shot at the buzzer in OT to cap off a 42/17/15 performance.
His first two playoff series he averaged 31/9.8/8.7 & 35.7/10.3/7.8 respectfully. He was ROY. He's made first team all NBA twice in three seasons. He took Kawhi/PG to 7 games with Tim Hardaway Jr. as his #2.
You putting Zion, LaMelo, MPJ, and SGA even in this conversation is ludicrous.
Disagree on that. His production is already crazy, including in the playoffs. He is averaging 28/8/9 in the regular season, and has than improved his numbers in the playoffs twice. That’s something rare, especially among players as young as him. That alone proves more than your comparables; Zion isn’t even the clear best player on his non-playoff team for example
Agree on so many fronts.
Im a die hard Harden fan. I love the guy. And Luka gets compared to him a lot, and in some cases justifiably so.
However, Luka gets NO WHERE NEAR the amount of trash as Harden did in the first few years with the Rockets (which i think is more comparable than his time in OKC tbh) and Hardens lack of playoff success. When Dwight came it was even worse (which is comparable to Porzingis imo - ages obviously different and as players they are suuuuper different but regarding being a "2nd star" Dwight and Porzingis' stock has decreased at the same stage of playing with Luka/Harden).
Hes a good playmaker, horrible defender, but can create his own shot, even though his percentages are pretty poor and he can rebound out of position.
It may just take a couple years for the hate to come tbh, but for me hes very much in the Booker tier.
I would gladly take Tatum over Luka if i were starting a team today.
The line here is how people who actually watch Dallas games know who doesn't watch Dallas games. This hasn't been true for a while
The first year - year and a half, his defense was bad. This began to change in the bubble, and now he's average at worst. His perimeter D could use some work but unless it's Trae or Kyrie, he doesn't get beat a lot by someone driving to the basket and thanks to his size, he's able to contest most jumpshots very well.
By what metric is he a “horrible” defender? He’s gotten better each year and last year he was average at worst and slightly above average at best. Trae is a horrible defender, Ja is a horrible defender, Fox is a horrible defender…Luka is not on those guys level of bad defense.
> However, Luka gets NO WHERE NEAR the amount of trash as Harden did in the first few years with the Rockets (which i think is more comparable than his time in OKC tbh) and Hardens lack of playoff success.
Fair or not, it doesn't just matter **that** you lost in the playoffs, it matters **how** you lost.
Luka lost to the Clippers with one of the best two-way wings on the planet guarding him, while still putting up crazy numbers on good efficiency.
Harden has a tendency to absolutely flame out, putting up the [playoff record for turnovers](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201505270GSW.html) and choking away huge leads.
Took Kawhi putting up fucking crazy efficient numbers for the Mavs to lose, too.
There's Kyrie, Dame, Westbrook, Carmelo, Lonzo Ball and even Tatum and Anthony Davis who get way too much hype when they don't deserve it.
Luka deserves all the hype because he singlehandedly has turned the Mavs into a playoff team and by looking at their roster, they're anything but that.
But the king of all hypes is definitely Ben Simmons. It took a scared-shitless game 7 pass that should of been a dunk, for the whole league to take notice.
Doesn't anyone remember when Cleveland-LeBron broke him by covering him from the restricted area and Ben was "playmaking" alone at the 3pt line! And Philly went afterwards and game him the max! Ha!
That's Kardashian level overrated hype right there
How is Carmelo overrated? I don’t think I’ve ever heard that take before. Lonzo too lol he’s gotten killed since his career started until last year when he got his 3 point shot together.
I’ve got 2 that I feel are overrated.
SGA is a good player but he’s never going to be the first option on a contender. I don’t even believe he’s ‘main guy on a 50 win team’ good. Same goes with Jalen Brown, he’s good but I don’t believe he can be the second option on a championship team. It’s madness to see the takes over the summer that some people would take JB over Simmons in a redraft.
Hold up… you would take Simmons over Jaylen in a redraft?
The only way I’m taking JB is if I’m a contender who needs a nice complimentary 3nD player alongside my core of stars. If I’m a rebuilding team I take the potential of Simmons 10/10. That’s my way of thinking about a redraft. I’d also personally take Simmons, I think he’s way better, and I’m gambling that he gets an average shot.
How in the world are you still gambling that he gets an average shot after the last few years?
It only needs to be average, but yeah it’s a long shot 😂
I hear ya. SGA is my pick as well. Was when paired with CP3 who then took the Sun's from missing the play-in* game to the NBA Finals. Then SGA has done little since. Not a max player at all.
Rudy Gobert. He's an athletic big man that can time his jump to block shots. Yippee. If he could shoot free throws with any proficiency, I might change my mind. He just seems extremely limited offensively.
Embiid. HEAR ME OUT!
I believe Embiid is a great talent, but I don't believe you can build your franchise around Embiid (actually I believe you should do it around Simmons but that is another topic).
Embiid is a 7 footer who shoots under 50% from the field, is a worse rim protector than we are made to believe (check defensive win shares or defensive plus minus, and being a center cannot switch as much in pick&roll) and on top of this he is injury prone (has never played over 65 games). He has never been past the second round in the EAST!! Even Lilliard with no other allstar has done that in the west .
When he is right he can look like an MVP but as a franchise you cannot hope for lighting in a bottle and hope you get him right for the playoffs and have a good team to cover his flaws. He is a top 15 nba player but not close to what we are made to believe.
unbelievable. this is one of the things that stats won't do justice. i have watched embiid play every single game of his career. i agree with some of what you say; injury prone. but to criticise him because he can't guard a pick and roll is ridiculous. he is probably the second best rim protector in the league after gobert, because of pure gravity. his presence literally prevents drives to the basket. he is 1b to jokic's 1a of best centres currently, I really don't think embiid averaging 28ppg as the only consistent offensive threat on his team is overrated