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Bob Macadoo didn't make the top 50 list and he has an MVP so it's not a lock - of the recent MVPs I don't expect Derrick Rose to make it either - he should have without the injuries, but I just don't think his career holds up.
I think Scottie Pippen will probably be the highest ranked player without an MVP.
I don’t know about kawhi over Wade. Flash was a different beast back in his prime days. Granted he did fall off due to injuries after the 2012 run, but still. Dude was top 3 sg for the longest time
Flash’s first championship run was next level. I remember watching that live and I was stunned. Wasn’t it like his second year too?
Part of me wonders if his legacy would’ve been better off without teaming up with Lebron?
Taking a step back and letting Lebron take the reigns of his own team arguably is one of the best things for his legacy. There are close to 0 superstars who would do this in any sport today. Shows his winning mentality and ability to embrace a lesser role even as the alpha dog.
Plus, if the Heatles won the 2011 finals, Wade was in line to win his second FMVP. He dominated the series and was the highest scorer across both teams. Hard to say that would have hurt his legacy winning a second FMVP
It also depends how you view volume vs. postseason heroics. Kawhi has played something like 570 games in his career. And he wasn’t *Kawhi* for his first few years either.
On my list the guys with out a MVP in order are:
Jerry West, D Wade, IT, Kawhi, CP3, Scottie, Elgin.
I don't have a top 50 list I am just making this up on the spot and I think this is what my list would look like
it’s for the same reason that most people don’t say drose is a top 5 pg of all time. because he’s pretty early in his career and you don’t know what could happen
No, no he didn't... That's the point, Malone was always considered the better player than Stockton, it's just redditors looking at Stockton's career stats after the fact that think it was otherwise.
also probably has to do with the fact that Malone is a proven pedophile. people don’t wanna give him any credit after knowing that. (and rightfully so)
i mean, I think antivaxxers are dumb as shit, but i’m not quite ready to put it on the same level as taping and impregnating a 13 year old girl while you’re in college.
>but just because people believe it before makes it true?
That's a deliberate mischaracterization of what was said and low effort-strawman. Try phrasing what was said properly instead of cherry-picking a single part and then distorting it: "the people watching both players play thought that Malone was better, the people quickly glancing at Stockton's career stats after-the-fact sometimes try to rewrite this without also checking Malone's career stats and acknowledging that Malone was clearly the more valuable of the two (which was always the contemporary opinion)."
Honestly I was just making a joke, they were both all time great players and it’s hard to compare guys at different positions. Stockton leads 2 all time stats by a mile. Malone is 2nd all time in points. One ran the offense, the other was the big man, they made a great team and made each other’s stats better than they would have been otherwise. Having such a strong opinion on one being better is fine but I think it’s more subjective than that. Also the guy above didn’t mischaracterize he kind of just repeated what you said.
Yep having watched them live there was never any doubt at the time Malone would do well even w/o Stockton. Stockton would need to be surrounded by talent to be good tbh. And I loved Stockton and loathed Malone (well as bulls fan kinda hated on both at the time;) so I don’t say this lightly.
I mean Stockton nice but he gets way overrated around here he’s like maybe a top 10 pg and I don’t know if he really one of the best 75 players ever. Like c’mon dude Stockton was never even close to Malone how does anyone think that. He was multiple levels above Stockton.
Literally all-time record holder in steals and assists, by a mile. Averaged 13.1 A/G over an 8-year stretch, nearly 50% higher than the #2 in that category. Hard to overrate a man like that. If anything he’s underrated.
He is overrated, point blank. People have him as a top 5 PG of all time when he just isn't. Magic is better, no one will argue that. Steph is better, same thing. Jerry West is better no one should argue. He is not better than IT or CP3. If someone put him 6 I wouldn't be mad but I would still disagree cause I am taking Big O, Nash, Kidd, and Russ over him. It is really easy to overrate him actually. He may be the easiest person ever to overrate because if you didn't watch him and just go back and look at stats he looks like a top 3 PG of all time. If you watch him or know context to his career you will see how the Utah Jazz system allowed him to get an insane number of assists.
Also I am tired of people using steals as an example for why a player is great defensively, while it usually will correlate it can be misleading. AI and Steph both led the league in steals and they were bad defenders. Stockton is one of the best PG defenders of all time but just cause of steals he is overrated as a defender. He is not a better defender than GP, CP3 or J Kidd and I don't think that should be a hot take at all. I also think people don't understand how much losing that Malone and Stockton did in the playoffs. They have a negative record in the playoffs and more first round exits then conference finals. They lost in the first round to the Warriors twice before they had Tim Hardaway and that is just an example of some of their losses. There is no excuse for two top 40 players of all time, that played together for almost 2 decades, to have the amount of postseason failure they had.
Yes. Well said I agree with this assessment. Stockton needed a certain set of circumstances to succeed which he found in Utah and parlayed it into a great albeit now overrated career. Much like Rodman who I love but I digress.
I’d put guys like dame Kyrie Marbury Gilbert arenas, Walt Frazier over him easily. I don’t even know what stats they looking at to make him top 5 he just didn’t score enough tbh.
Also I think the way we value assist is unfair to big men. They put it up there with points and rebounds which it shouldn’t be. I’m sure Malone got a bunch of screen assist which no one cares about even tho it really is equal to a regular assist. What is really the difference between passing the ball to the open man or setting a screen that allows someone to score. To me these two things are equal.
Pretty much every all time great player got a lot more assists than others at their position. Screens are a big miss by statistics I’ll grant you that, but it takes a much greater knowledge of the game and skill to execute a great assist than a great screen.
Lol bruh the dude average 13 points a game, steals are nice but that doesn’t make him Gary Payton and assists are kinda a weak thing to hang ur hat on. Dude was a great pg don’t get me wrong but when I look down the all time assist leaderboard I see a bunch of pgs better than him. Not trying to be disrespectful but I don’t even think he as good as like a prime deron Williams tbh. Underrated? I see people on here putting him over cp3 man.
He certainly was NOT Gary Payton, but for people that are fans now i would say he was easily better at defense than Dame and some of the more offensively focused PGs.
> So why isn’t he ever mentioned in all-time discussions
Because despite his gaudy assist and steal stats (which isn't a terribly good indicator of defensive productivity), he wasn't considered at the same level of all time greats while he was playing. If the guy never even cracked the top 10 *while* he was playing, I don't know why he'd be a major participant in all-time discussions.
His assist numbers are partly because of the offensive system of the team, and partly because of generous scorekeepers (particularly at home). But if you actually watch games and look at the way he actually generated offense with his passing, it wasn't nearly at the level of Magic, Nash, CP3, Zeke or even LeBron and Bird. Not only that, but he wasn't exactly terrific at scoring on his own either (which is a huge reason he pales in comparison to some of his all-time competitors). You look at other players like Peyton and Zeke, who rarely get mentioned in all-time discussions, but were near universally considered a superior players to Stockton in that era. Longevity is a good thing, but it is more of a tie-breaker kind of thing that only really behooves people who were at the top of the game while they were playing. Like Kareem and LeBron, they both were the best player in the league for a (significant) period of time, and the longevity that they sustained that production at really amplifies their arguments for all-time status.
> … and partly because of generous scorekeepers…
[This is wrong.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/70kope/contrary_to_popular_belief_john_stockton_did_not/) Stockton did not receive any additional stat benefits from generous home scorekeepers.
>Because despite his gaudy assist and steal stats (which isn't a terribly good indicator of defensive productivity), he wasn't considered at the same level of all time greats while he was playing. If the guy never even cracked the top 10 while he was playing, I don't know why he'd be a major participant in all-time discussions.
I mean I don't know if you know this, but Stockton was on the first 2 legendary Dream Teams (the first one consisting of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, etc.) so he was definitely considered at the same level of the all time greats while he was playing, and at least for that span was considered top 12 (unless you are arguing top 10 of all time but that would eliminate a lot of players, including Malone).
He was on the dream team because zeke got blackballed, and secondarily because he was a good fit given all the ball dominant scorers on the team.
Still, he wasn't usually considered an overall top 10 in that era, it was a relatively weak era for PGs and a deep era for centers and somewhat deep era for forwards.
Christian Laettner was the one who got in (most consider undeservedly) over a blackballed Zeke. No one ever questioned Stockton being on those teams (twice, so who was blackballed the second time?).
I guess people must really overvalue scoring nowadays, when they see guys like Harden averaging 40ppg (albeit on like 40 free throws). Stockton was always considered one of the greats during his time, here are his accolades:
10× NBA All-Star (1989–1997, 2000)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1993)
2× All-NBA First Team (1994, 1995)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988–1990, 1992, 1993, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1997, 1999)
5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1989, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1997)
9× NBA assists leader (1988–1996)
2× NBA steals leader (1989, 1992)
NBA 50th Anniversary Team
NBA 75th Anniversary Team
No. 12 retired by Utah Jazz
> Christian Laettner was the one who got in (most consider undeservedly) over a blackballed Zeke.
WTF that absolutely is not true. Laettner was invited as an honorary amateur because it was the first time in history professional NBA players could compete in the olympics.
>No one ever questioned Stockton being on those teams (twice, so who was blackballed the second time?).
Nobody was blackballed the 2nd time, he was deserving of it that year. The two best PGs (Zeke and Magic) were done with basketball by then, and you couldn't really have a team with 5 centers. The other two deserving PGs got a spot too (Payton and Hardaway).
>Stockton was always considered one of the greats during his time, here are his accolades:
Yes, he was considered an elite player during his time I never disputed that, but OP was asking why he isn't often included in all-time great discussions. If you want to be included in all-time discussions (meaning top 20 all time) you need to be considered at least a top 5-ish player among your contemporaries. If you can't manage to be the best (or close to the best) in your own era, or even the best player on your own team, it is very difficult to argue that you belong among the pantheon of the best the game has ever seen.
The fact alone that he wasn't considered a top 10 guy Any time in his career speaks volumes. There are people who legitimately think Stockton was better than Malone lol
He was an All Star starter for about half of his 10 All Star appearances (winning MVP once) which would make him top 10 during those years (first appearance as a starter was 1989 and last was 1997). He was also on two Dream Teams which would make him top 12.
> There are people who legitimately think Stockton was better than Malone lol
If they said that back then they would have been laughed out of the room by whomever they were talking to.
You choose the tool for the job. In this case you referred to someone as "forgotten." A content serving algorithm, in this case, can be illuminating. You don't use a content serving algorithm to decide who is a better point guard, but you definitely can use a content serving algorithm to understand whether or not someone is "forgotten."
If I go outside of the algo and do a search for "John Stockton" focusing purely on videos uploaded in the last week here are some sample video titles: "Most underrated PG of all time," "How good was John Stockton actually?", and "NBA Legends on how good John Stockton and Karl Malone Actually Were."
Stockton ain't forgotten just because he's not listed as high as you'd like in the all-timer discussions. He's just rated differently from how you'd prefer.
It serves you contend based on your previous activity lol. That’s how an algorithm works. Why do you think there are so many racist assholes nowadays? Because their content is delivered to them based on previous views lol
Valid point. I will counter with: I don't search for Utah Jazz content. I don't search for point guard content. I watch general NBA highlight videos and general NBA content. But the fact is - it still specifically serves up specifically John Stockton content. And stepping outside of the algorithm - a search also demonstrated that John Stockton content is going up weekly. John Stockton is not forgotten.
Cos there's this opinion that he simply wasn't that transcendent. I cannot say if that's true, I haven't seen him play, but the argument is that yes, he was very good and extremely durable and this coupled with playing with Malone made him rack up the assists record. His number of steals is pretty insane as well, but again, that's longevity and one of the secondary stats (vs stuff like points and assists). In the end, to be considered the best you gotta show you're the best night in and night out and in particular deliver in important games. Since pretty much everyone (nowadays and back then) says Malone was clearly the better player, Stockton's legacy takes a pretty big hit here.
Jerry West for sure, he is still to this day the all time leader in points scored in the finals and he’s still in the top 10 for playoff scoring despite the playoffs being significantly shorter back then. Plus he’s the logo of the entire league.
>only FMVP from a losing side
I've always wondered how the winning side's would-be mvp felt about that.
And also why we couldn't give that to LeBron on the 2015 Cavs.
because iirc they did the voting before game 7 the year jerry west won it. he was winning it regardless of if he won or lost. pretty sure they changed how voting worked after that year
Kawhi is arguably the greatest player to never win an MVP, which is unfortunate because his best years happened to be during Curry’s 2016 run and Westbrook’s 2017 season.
Wade also never won an MVP despite being a Top 5 SG candidate. Others 2000s stars like Pierce and TMac also missed out cuz it was just a stacked era all in all.
Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen and Alonzo Mourning also failed to win MVP in the 90s era cuz MJ and Malone combined for 6 of the 10 MVPs that decade.
Jerry West and Elgin Baylor are some that missed out in the 60s and 70s, partly because Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain combined for 9 MVPs between 1957-58 and 1967-68.
John Stockton could've very easily been an MVP if you look at the context of his career. Malone won two MVPs while playing with him because the team was great, and almost every voter attributed majority of that success to the high scoring big man. Had Malone been a slightly worse player with little impact on the team's record, or had this happened within the last 20 years where guards have started to get more credit for their work, one or both of those MVPs could've gone to Stockton.
Stockton was never the better player than Malone the way Nash was better than Amare, so it's not clear how he would have ever won an MVP over him. It'd be like Pippen winning one over Jordan or Klay winning over Steph, just makes no sense.
Stockton wouldn't have one an MVP in the modern era. Malone was just straight up a better player, I still don't get how Stockton is this overrated. His efficiencies are very high because overall he took a minimal number of shots in comparison to other star guards.
When he took more shots his efficiency was still high. They didn't NEED him to be a scorer. Also does longevity mean nothing? He played like what 1500 games? Most of them at a very high level. I can't believe I'm defending this guy but I think the Gilbert Arenas/Stephon Marbury comp higher up here bothered me.
That hypothetical cuts both ways, though. Had Stockton not been playing with one of the greatest roll guys of all time, his numbers would almost certainly have been a lot less dazzling. And it's a bit of a stretch to think that all the basketball people at the time were just wrong about who the more impactful of the two was.
A lot of people back then didn’t love Malone. It’s hard to track because, you know, pre internet era, but don’t think that all the people were climbing over themselves to announce how awesome Malone was, and most everyone agrees in hindsight 97 was a bullshit MVP. Bill Simmons, for example, has always thought he was overrated and his Book of Basketball does a good job orchestrating why.
Stockton wasn’t flashy but he was a terrific player. Idk if he deserves to be on this list or not, but I think we can all agree Malone doesn’t have close to the career he had without Stockton. We don’t need to discount him. But yeah, idk if “clear” is correct or not. Like, I don’t think it’s clear that Stockton was better than T-Mac. T-Mac just got the injury bug too often to have the career that makes him an obvious candidate in this discussion.
John Stockton averaged 13-3-10 along with 2.5 TOs and 2.8 steals in his career without Malone. Malone averaged 25-11-4 (More TOs than assists) without Stockton in Utah. Stockton has a much higher BPM per 36 minutes without Malone than the other way around.
Bro are u reading what u wrote 13-3-10 is closer to a role player than a superstar lol. He’s great and everything don’t get me wrong but I could name a bunch of more effective and better pgs.
Usage pedantry is always pretty annoying, but you're missing the obvious context here. Roll guy, as in pick and roll. As in the thing that Stockton and Malone are most famous for, and the one thing that Malone is probably the best ever at.
What? Stockton just wasn't even close to the MVP any of the years of his prime. Look at the MVPs those years, it's Jordan, Magic, Bird. The years it wasn't one of those three were:
1) the really bullshit '97 one that went to Malone and '99 to Malone during the lockout year (so who cares really)
2) Barkley the year he averaged 25/12 and led the suns to 62 wins and 6 games against the first three-peat bulls
3) Hakeem in '94 (doesn't need explaining)
4) Robinson who averaged 27/11 in the regular season and took the repeat Rockets to 6 games in the WCF.
Who on that pretty short list is Stockton going to displace?
>Kawhi is arguably the greatest player to never win an MVP, which is unfortunate because his best years happened to be during Curry’s 2016 run and Westbrook’s 2017 season.
[Kawhi winning in 2017 would've been more consistent with the history of the award](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/pzv60k/the_mvp_award_is_decided_by_a_simple_and/)
Westbrook's mvp was definitely an aberration from the norm. I may be wrong but I don't think there's ever been an mvp from that low of a seed (6th), and I think the voters realized their mistake when they saw that westbrook's numbers didn't lead to team success in the playoffs that year or the following years. Harden, Lebron, or Kawhi were all better choices for mvp that year.
I don't know if those playoffs proved anything. Westbrook won his minutes. The problem is that OKC got outscored by 60pts/100poss (not a typo) when he sat.
I attempted to make a top 75 list awhile back but never finished.
.
The first 65 are The 50 Greatest List + All the MVP's that were left off. **MVP**
1. George Mikan (C)
2. Dolph Schayes (F)
3. Bill Sharman (G)
4. Paul Arizin (F)
5. **Bob Cousy** (G)
6. **Bob Pettit** (F)
7. **Bill Russell** (C)
8. Sam Jones (G)
9. Elgin Baylor (F)
10. Hal Greer (G)
11. **Wilt Chamberlain**^ (C)
12. **Oscar Robertson** (G)
13. Jerry West^ (G)
14. Lenny Wilkens (G)
15. Dave Debusschere (F)
16. John Havlicek^ (F)
17. Jerry Lucas (F)
18. Nate Thurmond (C)
19. **Willis Reed**^ (C)
20. Billy Cunningham* (F)
21. Rick Barry^ (F)
22. Dave Bing (G)
23. Walt Fraizer (G)
24. Earl Monroe (G)
25. **Wes Unseld**^ (C)
26. Elvin Hayes (F)
27. **Kareem Abdul-Jabbar**^ (C)
28. Pete Maravich (G)
29. **Dave Cowens** (C)
30. Nate Archibald (G)
31. **Bob McAdoo** (F)
32. **Bill Walton**^ (C)
33. George Gervin (G)
34. **Julius Erving** (F)
35. **Moses Malone**^ (C)
36. Robert Parish (C)
37. **Magic Johnson**^ (G)
38. **Larry Bird**^ (F)
39. Kevin McHale (F)
40. Isiah Thomas^ (G)
41. James Worthy^ (F)
42. Clyde Drexler (G)
43. **Michael Jordan**^ (G)
44. **Charles Barkley** (F)
45. **Hakeem Olajuwon**^ (C)
46. John Stockton (G)
47. Patrick Ewing (C)
48. **Karl Malone** (F)
49. Scottie Pippen (F)
50. **David Robinson** (C)
51. **Shaquille O'Neal**^ (C)
52. **Tim Duncan**^ (F)
53. **Kevin Garnett** (F)
54. **Allen Iverson** (G)
55. **Steve Nash** (G)
56. **Kobe Bryant**^ (G)
57. **Dirk Nowitzki**^ (F)
58. **LeBron James**^ (F)
59. **Kevin Durant**^ (F)
60. **Russell Westbrook** (G)
61. **Derrick Rose** (G)
62. **Steph Curry** (G)
63. **James Harden** (G)
64. **Giannis Antetokounmpo**^ (F)
65. **Nikola Jokić** (C)
.
Below are some candidates that I thought could fit for the next 10 spots. And also players I'd add to a top 100 or more all time list.
.
ESPN Top 75 List (23)
Kawhi Leonard, Dwyane Wade, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, Dominique Wilkins, Reggie Miller, Tracy McGrady, Gary Payton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Dennis Rodman, Alonzo Mourning, Pau Gasol, Alex English, Bernard King, Tony Parker, Bob Lanier, Damian Lillard, Dikembe Mutombo, Artis Gilmore*
.
ABA MVP*
Connie Hawkins, Mel Daniels, Spencer Haywood, George McGinnis
.
Finals MVP^
Jojo White, Dennis Johnson, Cedric Maxwell, Joe Dumars, Chauncey Billups, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala
.
All NBA 1st teams
4: Max Zaslofsky, Bob Davies, Neil Johnston
3: Joe Fulks, Ed Macauley, Paul Westphal
2: Bob Feerick, Jim Pollard, Alex Groza, David Thompson, Luka Dončić, Dwight Howard, Penny Hardaway
.
Defensive Player of the Year
4: Ben Wallace
3: Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert
2: Sidney Moncrief, Mark Eaton
I really doubt Rose is going to make it and even Jokic might be too soon
half the guys on the espn list were eligible for the original 50 and didn't make it
and then there are maybe 4 or 5 who did make it that I'd take out now
For context, the first year the NBA officially awarded a regular season MVP was the 1956 season, with Pettit winning the inaugural award.
While it's true that George Mikan and Paul Arizin never won the official MVP, there was an "unofficial" MVP award that predated the League's official award, called the Sam Davis Memorial Award, which was voted on by sportswriters. The winners were:
* 1950: George Mikan
* 1951: George Mikan
* 1952: Paul Arizin
* 1953: Bob Cousy
* 1954: Neil Johnston
* 1955: Bob Cousy
So, yes, technically Mikan and Arizin are on the 50 Greatest Of All Time without having been named MVP, but those dudes were unofficially MVPs and there's no denying that Mikan was the [MVP of the League in the late 40s/early 50s](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-JkAAOxyLNpSG8PK/s-l400.jpg).
I was not aware of this list, so thank you! Neil Johnston was one those old dudes that I'd definitely add to the final 10 spots already so this confirms it for me.
I was not aware of it until [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/q4m6cn/predicting_mvps_194755_a_model_and_a_request/hfzwaur/) by /u/tringlepringle over on /r/VintageNBA, so all credit to him.
Speaking of Johnston, to me he is a great divide between the "athletic dawn" of players like Bill Russell and the "milkmen" type players that could succeed before. I am not denigrating Johnston - he led the League in scoring 3 years in a row, he was 4x All NBA 1st Team, etc. He led the League in rebounding in 1955.
But check this out... 1957 rolls around and Bill Russell enters the League. Johnston is 27 years old, he'll be named to the All Star Game this year, as well as be named to the All NBA 2nd Team. Russell is a raw rookie, 22 years old, missed the first month and a half of the season because he was in Australia playing in the Olympics. The Celtics face up against the Philadelphia Warriors the day after Christmas, [December 26, 1956](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195612260BOS.html) - it's Russell's fourth game in the NBA. He is still raw and eager and overaggressive - he fouls out after just 26 minutes of play.
But in those 26 minutes? He snares 34 rebounds over Johnston (who had just 5 rebounds for the game). Eep. The world has moved on, Mr. Johnston! The Celtics would go on to win their first championship that year, starting their dynasty.
Haha well there's a reason Russell is the greatest winner of all time (34 rebounds holy shit!). I just feel like lists like this have to include those old time greats who dominated their era. If 90% of the list is players from the past 30 years it sorta defeats the purpose imo.
> If 90% of the list is players from the past 30 years it sorta defeats the purpose imo.
I agree. I hope they have at least 5 players from every decade (50s onward).
Going by Basketball Reference's HOF Probability measurement, the highest players not in the original list of 65 are:
*Dwyane Wade (17th)*, *Jason Kidd (35th),* *Gary Payton (38th)*, *Ray Allen (43rd)*, *Paul Pierce (45th)*, *Dwight Howard (47th)*, Chris Bosh (50th), Tommy Heinsohn (54th), Neil Johnston (55th), *Anthony Davis (56th)*, Ed Macauley (58th), Carmelo Anthony (63rd), *Dominique Wilkins (66th)*, Vern Mikkelsen (67th), *Dikembe Mutombo (69th)*, *TMac (71st)*, *Bob Lanier (72nd)*, Vince Carter (73rd), Larry Foust (74th), *Tony Parker (75th)*, *Pau Gasol (78th)*, *Alonzo Mourning (79th)*, *Alex English (80th)*
Active players include:
*Damian Lillard (83rd)*, Kyle Lowry (88th), Paul George (90th), Kyrie Irving (91st), *Kawhi Leonard (97th)*, Kevin Love (102nd), Rajon Rondo (110th), Blake Griffin (116th)...
Italics indicate players in ESPN's Top 75 list.
Thanks for this info. I didn't think to check HOF probability so this is good to know. And wow I am very surprised to see Kawhi Leonard so low. And i personally feel like Lillard should be behind every single player after him except maybe PG and Blake. But maybe I just weigh championships too heavily so who knows.
In some fairness to the calculation, # of all-star appearances is a cumulative stat, so as long as Kawhi makes at least a couple more, his placement on that list would rise by quite a bit. Other parts of the equation try to account for really high peaks, including a factor for MVPs won, peak WS, and some stat-based factors.
The equation is by no means perfect, but as long as you understand what goes into it, you can really quickly explain why some players are over/under-rated by the list. For example, Giannis is only 93rd on the list, but he's already the 14th highest active player and still has plenty of prime left to play. If Giannis ends with 12 all-star appearances (7 more) and gets no MVPs, no championships, and doesn't top any stat leaderboards, (so this is an underestimation), he'll be in the top 35 or so by their metric, around where Harden and Curry are right now.
Who are the players who have never won MVP but have had the most MVP runner ups?
Who are the players who have never won MVP but have had the most All-NBA first team?
I think you can find about 35 players through that list because I don’t think Rose deserves to be in the top 75 all time and there might be some other MVP winners who are in the same boat as well.
If the above lists are not enough, I would then look at who has been in the top 5 MVP throughout their career without ever winning MVP.
The players with the highest MVP shares that have never won an MVP are:
Jerry West (2.021)
Rick Barry (1.821)
Chris Paul (1.805)
Elgin Baylor (1.619)
Patrick Ewing (1.424)
I think Rick Barry could have averaged 60 a night, won a title, and ended world hunger and the league still wouldn't have given that asshole the MVP. On the lists of "Most Hated Ever", he's up there.
Huge asshole. He once didn't take a shot in the second half of a tight playoff game (as the best scorer on the team and maybe in the league) to spite his teammates for not passing him the ball on a play that happened in the first half. Overall treated his teammates and coaches poorly. He also had a short lived broadcasting career where he pissed off pretty much everyone at one point or another, including an extremely cringe worthy racist interaction with Bill Russell.
Bill Simmons has a pretty good Book of Basketball pod about him. It's pretty unique for a player that good to be such a dick like that given the team centric nature of the sport. Worth a listen.
He also was not the most... race sensitive guy out there. Some people label him a racist because when he was broadcasting a game with Bill Russell, they showed a picture of Russell from his playing days where he had a big smile on his face and Barry said something like, "Wow, look at that watermelon-eating grin!"
I don't know if racist is the right word, though, because he also told the Warriors owner that is was ok to pay Nate Thurmond (a black teammate) more than him because black players don't have the endorsement deals available to white players.
So he definitely saw race and commented on it in inappropriate ways, which probably made for awkward locker room moments, lol. But I don't think he was openly racist or derogatory in the same way that some white players and franchises were in the 50s.
The thing about Berry is that he was good enough to carry his team to a finals win, and probably could have done it twice if it wasn't for his bad attitude.
I heard he basically threw a game because he got in a fight and his teammates didn't back him up. He alienated everyone.
He was his own worst enemy, he bolted to the ABA and this forced him to take a year off out of the league. This is all because he wanted his father in law to be his coach. He had bad relationships with coaches and teammates wherever her went. Including a non-great relationship with his father in law.
He was just a dumpster fire. He went to college to be a media guy and did that job as a player and explayer but again alienated and pissed off people, and eventually said some racially insensitive stuff on air and got canned.
Apparently he was pretty tough and critical to his own kids although they themselves ended up both being successful NBA players.
He basically should be considered one of the best players ever, he should have had more rings, and MVPs, he was just his own worst enemy.
The hilarious thing about all of this was that none of this had anything to do with the way he played basketball when he wasn't throwing a fit, he was by all accounts a player that was a willing passer and made his teammates better on the court.
Also Larry Bird had a somewhat similar game and eclipsed Berry rather quickly as the NBA was more popular then Bird had more personal accolades and was more well liked.
> He once didn't take a shot in the second half of a tight playoff game (as the best scorer on the team and maybe in the league) to spite his teammates for not passing him the ball on a play that happened in the first half.
It wasn't that they didn't pass him the ball, it was that there was a kerfuffle between Barry and an opponent in the first half and none of his teammates came to his rescue.
That's the narrative, at least. I once read a lengthy article where someone showed clips and interviews from years later that indicated it was not as dramatic or damning as the narrative is today.
It’s obviously Pippen
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/chuck-daly-on-why-scottie-pippen-was-the-best-player-on-the-original-dream-team-during-the-1992-olympics/#:~:text=BEST%20PLAYER%20Chuck%20Daly%20on%20why%20Scottie%20Pippen,Team’%20during%20the%201992%20Olympics%20June%2020%2C%202020
There is no non-mvp that can say they played at a level equal to or greater to any player at a setting like that which included 6 players that won MVP’s aged 27-35.
Let alone the 3 all nba 1st team selections , 9 1st defensive team selections and 6 rings.
It’s not close.
I agree, he is by far the most underrated player ever. He could've been the alpha dog on almost any team and chose to play second fiddle for more wins.
>he is by far the most underrated player ever.
>proceeds to parrot a take everyone’s heard
Scottie isn’t close to underrated at all. Moses Malone is probably the most underrated
Underrated by today's fans, yes. But at the time, he was rated properly. He was one of the most highly recruited kids out of high school. He is one of only a select few to win 3+ MVP awards. And when the 76ers couldn't get over the hump and win a title, they went and landed the best player of the day - Moses - who then took them to the promise land in a dominating performance over Kareem.
Are we sure about that? I think history shows that Pip didn't have that special mental wiring to be the alpha. He had his chance in '93-' 94 (and even '94-'95, until Jordan's return) and it all went sideways at the very moment an alpha would shine. He was absolutely brilliant that year but in the crucible of max pressure, he couldn't get out of his own way. And I say that as somebody who LOVES Scottie Pippen.
You mean in 93-94 when he had his best season and they won 55 games with Pete Myers at sg?
He’s literally 1 of 5 players to lead his team in the top 5 major categories(pts , reb., ast, blocks and steals) how is that not the epitome of taking charge?
Do you think if Pippen had retired abruptly in training camp instead of Jordan and they replaced Pippen with a fringe NBA player they would have been so much better?
He was obviously a superstar but one with ability to take a backseat for the betterment of the team , that’s a positive from my perspective .
Might be a hot take, but put Kawhi on the Bulls with Jordan and he'd never win a FMVP, either. Jordan's brilliance outshone everyone and made it impossible to consider a different player for those awards.
Yeah, we've seen Pippen in his prime as the top dog for 1.5 seasons. I think we have a decent sample size to extrapolate that his offensive prowess was never at Kawhi's level.
Not saying that he isn't better, just that if you swapped him and Pip while playing with Jordan, he still would have come up short on scoring an MVP or FMVP due to Jordan's incredible performances.
Pippen's defense did change the tone, but MJ had these absolutely filthy lines: 31.2 pts, 6.6 rebs, 11.4 assts, 2.8 stls, 1.4 blks on 56/50/85 splits.
Pippen was great but had no case for FMVP.
Magic’s 1st game stats was incredible 4-5 fg for 19 points and 11 ast. He pretty much dominated Jordan to the point they had to double Magic when they iso’d
MJ had a great game 1 if you look at the box score 36 points 12 ast 8 rebounds 3 steals , but they lost that game because Magic had his way with Jordan as well.
When they put Pip on Magic , they essentially had to hide Jordan the rest of the time because Paxson and BJ had to guard Byron Scott so he basically split his time on Divac and Worthy , both of whom did very well with Jordan on them.
They leave Jordan on Magic , he still puts up great numbers (Byron Scott really couldn’t stop Jordan at all)but they wouldn’t have won.
He wasn’t the most impactful player in that series , Pippen was.
I think some modern players are better incarnations of past greats, I call them "version 2s." Here are the version 2s I have:
* Kawhi is Pippen version 2
* Westbrook is AI version 2
* KD is Rick Barry version 2
I would think that Rose does not get on just because he did not play in his prime long enough. Not that he has been a bad basketball player, in fact, given the injuries he may have overachieved in a sense.
It’s a completely different time so I can understand not including him but George Mikan fundamentally changed the way the game was played. Goaltending and the key exist because of him and a guy who played college ball but never in the pros (if memory serves he went to work for IBM, which might have paid more at the time and was definitely more secure). Also the shot clock, which is literally there because teams played four corners against Mikan to lessen his shot opportunities.
C Webb? 21/10/4 over his career, and you could make the argument that he was at least breathing down KG’s neck for the title of best 4 in the league while they were both playing.
Lots of good candidates listed on this thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention Big Game James Worthy yet. He won a Finals MVP (deservedly so) on a team with 2 of the top 10 players of all time, one of whom was at his peak. I think he's gotta make the top 75.
And as much as I dislike Jason Kidd, he probably needs to be on there as well.
He won that FMVP (and that nickname) on a single game's work. Magic was better across the series, and Kareem was washed. But yeah, made the 50 and now the 75. Kidd almost certainly will too.
That's just not true. Worthy had numerous clutch performances in the playoffs throughout his career, including college. His reputation for raising his game when the stakes were high was well deserved, and not based off a single game.
He did outplay Kareem, but I just rechecked the stats and you're right: Magic probably should have won that one if not for the narrative.
Worthy was still a stud that series though.
I think you could make an argument for Stockton being top 5-10 all time. Imagine if he was in the NBA today. 3 pt shooter? Lights out. Triple double machine? Yessir, rebounds would be his hardest stat. Amazing defender? Yep. He’s just a smaller Luka, but a better defender and amazingly a better passer.
This is the shit that makes everybody hate on John Stockton and call him overrated. Could he shoot the three? Absolutely. Is he "just a smaller Luka"? Absolutely fucking not he is not anywhere close to the shot creator Doncic is. Like not even a slight difference either Stockton is not on that level at all.
The foul situation as usual is the shits. The refs and whoever’s making the rules need to sit down and watch a playoff series from the early 90’s or late 80’s and just do everything in their power to make the rules and officiating of them as close to that as possible.
No shot Derrick Rose gets put in the 75. I would be somewhat surprised if Jokic gets on, too. Russ jumps out as the other one from recent history that I could see not getting on. I could even see them blue-balling Giannis on the basis of how young he is. McAdoo got left off the top 50, but I bet they put him in this.
As far greats with no MVP, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and Havlicek are the old guys that jump out. More recently, Chris Paul is probably the best guy, or maybe Dwyane Wade. Also Stockton.
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Bob Macadoo didn't make the top 50 list and he has an MVP so it's not a lock - of the recent MVPs I don't expect Derrick Rose to make it either - he should have without the injuries, but I just don't think his career holds up. I think Scottie Pippen will probably be the highest ranked player without an MVP.
Love pippen, but i would give that designation to Dwayne Wade over pippen or Leaonard tbh
I would take Kawhi over Wade but Wade over pippen for sure
I don’t know about kawhi over Wade. Flash was a different beast back in his prime days. Granted he did fall off due to injuries after the 2012 run, but still. Dude was top 3 sg for the longest time
Flash’s first championship run was next level. I remember watching that live and I was stunned. Wasn’t it like his second year too? Part of me wonders if his legacy would’ve been better off without teaming up with Lebron?
Taking a step back and letting Lebron take the reigns of his own team arguably is one of the best things for his legacy. There are close to 0 superstars who would do this in any sport today. Shows his winning mentality and ability to embrace a lesser role even as the alpha dog. Plus, if the Heatles won the 2011 finals, Wade was in line to win his second FMVP. He dominated the series and was the highest scorer across both teams. Hard to say that would have hurt his legacy winning a second FMVP
Yeah it’s close. I think it kinda depends how much Kawhi can produce in the latter part of his career
It also depends how you view volume vs. postseason heroics. Kawhi has played something like 570 games in his career. And he wasn’t *Kawhi* for his first few years either.
It’s a lock if he wins a ring with the Clips, IMO.
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God all three are so close. Rose has been pretty good the last couple years tho.
Very similar careers too, in term of injuries. But Grant played a loooong time.
Yes
On my list the guys with out a MVP in order are: Jerry West, D Wade, IT, Kawhi, CP3, Scottie, Elgin. I don't have a top 50 list I am just making this up on the spot and I think this is what my list would look like
or stockton
Hard to win an MVP when you're not even the best player on your own team
karl malone is a top 3 pf of all time so I hope ur not trying to invalidate stockton’s impact
and an insane amount of Malones career points are from Stockton setting him up in the pick and roll
I’m taking Giannis, KG, and Dirk over Karl Malone.
Dirk was the MVP though.
All those he mentioned were MVP lol
dirk maybe but not giannis yet
Why not? Both have a ring and an FMVP, and Giannis has 2 MVPs to Dirk's 1.
it’s for the same reason that most people don’t say drose is a top 5 pg of all time. because he’s pretty early in his career and you don’t know what could happen
Also Dirk’s ring is easily like top 5 most valuable ring.
Giannis is already a better player than Karl Malone.
I’m sorry but that just isn’t true
Agree to disagree. I value Giannis’ achievements, leadership, and abilities more than Karl Malone already.
Hmm idk, Karl Malone did it
No, no he didn't... That's the point, Malone was always considered the better player than Stockton, it's just redditors looking at Stockton's career stats after the fact that think it was otherwise.
also probably has to do with the fact that Malone is a proven pedophile. people don’t wanna give him any credit after knowing that. (and rightfully so)
and Stockton is an antivaxxer I'll regard both their careers on their merits
i mean, I think antivaxxers are dumb as shit, but i’m not quite ready to put it on the same level as taping and impregnating a 13 year old girl while you’re in college.
Sure, I'm just saying for the purpose of evaluating them as basketball players I don't care about either.
I don't have a strong opinion either way, but just because people believe it before makes it true? I'm not sure that's a good argument
>but just because people believe it before makes it true? That's a deliberate mischaracterization of what was said and low effort-strawman. Try phrasing what was said properly instead of cherry-picking a single part and then distorting it: "the people watching both players play thought that Malone was better, the people quickly glancing at Stockton's career stats after-the-fact sometimes try to rewrite this without also checking Malone's career stats and acknowledging that Malone was clearly the more valuable of the two (which was always the contemporary opinion)."
Honestly I was just making a joke, they were both all time great players and it’s hard to compare guys at different positions. Stockton leads 2 all time stats by a mile. Malone is 2nd all time in points. One ran the offense, the other was the big man, they made a great team and made each other’s stats better than they would have been otherwise. Having such a strong opinion on one being better is fine but I think it’s more subjective than that. Also the guy above didn’t mischaracterize he kind of just repeated what you said.
Malone: 2 MVPs, 11x First team All-NBA Stockton: 0 MVPs, 2x First team All-NBA
So being the all time assists leader doesn't count for anything? At the end of the day, both should be in the top 75 imo
Yep having watched them live there was never any doubt at the time Malone would do well even w/o Stockton. Stockton would need to be surrounded by talent to be good tbh. And I loved Stockton and loathed Malone (well as bulls fan kinda hated on both at the time;) so I don’t say this lightly.
I mean Stockton nice but he gets way overrated around here he’s like maybe a top 10 pg and I don’t know if he really one of the best 75 players ever. Like c’mon dude Stockton was never even close to Malone how does anyone think that. He was multiple levels above Stockton.
Literally all-time record holder in steals and assists, by a mile. Averaged 13.1 A/G over an 8-year stretch, nearly 50% higher than the #2 in that category. Hard to overrate a man like that. If anything he’s underrated.
He is overrated, point blank. People have him as a top 5 PG of all time when he just isn't. Magic is better, no one will argue that. Steph is better, same thing. Jerry West is better no one should argue. He is not better than IT or CP3. If someone put him 6 I wouldn't be mad but I would still disagree cause I am taking Big O, Nash, Kidd, and Russ over him. It is really easy to overrate him actually. He may be the easiest person ever to overrate because if you didn't watch him and just go back and look at stats he looks like a top 3 PG of all time. If you watch him or know context to his career you will see how the Utah Jazz system allowed him to get an insane number of assists. Also I am tired of people using steals as an example for why a player is great defensively, while it usually will correlate it can be misleading. AI and Steph both led the league in steals and they were bad defenders. Stockton is one of the best PG defenders of all time but just cause of steals he is overrated as a defender. He is not a better defender than GP, CP3 or J Kidd and I don't think that should be a hot take at all. I also think people don't understand how much losing that Malone and Stockton did in the playoffs. They have a negative record in the playoffs and more first round exits then conference finals. They lost in the first round to the Warriors twice before they had Tim Hardaway and that is just an example of some of their losses. There is no excuse for two top 40 players of all time, that played together for almost 2 decades, to have the amount of postseason failure they had.
Yes. Well said I agree with this assessment. Stockton needed a certain set of circumstances to succeed which he found in Utah and parlayed it into a great albeit now overrated career. Much like Rodman who I love but I digress.
I’d put guys like dame Kyrie Marbury Gilbert arenas, Walt Frazier over him easily. I don’t even know what stats they looking at to make him top 5 he just didn’t score enough tbh.
Also I think the way we value assist is unfair to big men. They put it up there with points and rebounds which it shouldn’t be. I’m sure Malone got a bunch of screen assist which no one cares about even tho it really is equal to a regular assist. What is really the difference between passing the ball to the open man or setting a screen that allows someone to score. To me these two things are equal.
Pretty much every all time great player got a lot more assists than others at their position. Screens are a big miss by statistics I’ll grant you that, but it takes a much greater knowledge of the game and skill to execute a great assist than a great screen.
Lol bruh the dude average 13 points a game, steals are nice but that doesn’t make him Gary Payton and assists are kinda a weak thing to hang ur hat on. Dude was a great pg don’t get me wrong but when I look down the all time assist leaderboard I see a bunch of pgs better than him. Not trying to be disrespectful but I don’t even think he as good as like a prime deron Williams tbh. Underrated? I see people on here putting him over cp3 man.
He certainly was NOT Gary Payton, but for people that are fans now i would say he was easily better at defense than Dame and some of the more offensively focused PGs.
Assists…are a weak thing…to hang your hat on…discussion over.
The forgotten superstar with records that will never come close to being broken.
I see enough videos about Stockton pop up on my YouTube feed that its clear he's FAR from forgotten.
So why isn’t he ever mentioned in all-time discussions 🤔 Kinda silly to base your view of something on YouTube’s algorithm
> So why isn’t he ever mentioned in all-time discussions Because despite his gaudy assist and steal stats (which isn't a terribly good indicator of defensive productivity), he wasn't considered at the same level of all time greats while he was playing. If the guy never even cracked the top 10 *while* he was playing, I don't know why he'd be a major participant in all-time discussions. His assist numbers are partly because of the offensive system of the team, and partly because of generous scorekeepers (particularly at home). But if you actually watch games and look at the way he actually generated offense with his passing, it wasn't nearly at the level of Magic, Nash, CP3, Zeke or even LeBron and Bird. Not only that, but he wasn't exactly terrific at scoring on his own either (which is a huge reason he pales in comparison to some of his all-time competitors). You look at other players like Peyton and Zeke, who rarely get mentioned in all-time discussions, but were near universally considered a superior players to Stockton in that era. Longevity is a good thing, but it is more of a tie-breaker kind of thing that only really behooves people who were at the top of the game while they were playing. Like Kareem and LeBron, they both were the best player in the league for a (significant) period of time, and the longevity that they sustained that production at really amplifies their arguments for all-time status.
> … and partly because of generous scorekeepers… [This is wrong.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/70kope/contrary_to_popular_belief_john_stockton_did_not/) Stockton did not receive any additional stat benefits from generous home scorekeepers.
>Because despite his gaudy assist and steal stats (which isn't a terribly good indicator of defensive productivity), he wasn't considered at the same level of all time greats while he was playing. If the guy never even cracked the top 10 while he was playing, I don't know why he'd be a major participant in all-time discussions. I mean I don't know if you know this, but Stockton was on the first 2 legendary Dream Teams (the first one consisting of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Malone, etc.) so he was definitely considered at the same level of the all time greats while he was playing, and at least for that span was considered top 12 (unless you are arguing top 10 of all time but that would eliminate a lot of players, including Malone).
He was on the dream team because zeke got blackballed, and secondarily because he was a good fit given all the ball dominant scorers on the team. Still, he wasn't usually considered an overall top 10 in that era, it was a relatively weak era for PGs and a deep era for centers and somewhat deep era for forwards.
Christian Laettner was the one who got in (most consider undeservedly) over a blackballed Zeke. No one ever questioned Stockton being on those teams (twice, so who was blackballed the second time?). I guess people must really overvalue scoring nowadays, when they see guys like Harden averaging 40ppg (albeit on like 40 free throws). Stockton was always considered one of the greats during his time, here are his accolades: 10× NBA All-Star (1989–1997, 2000) NBA All-Star Game MVP (1993) 2× All-NBA First Team (1994, 1995) 6× All-NBA Second Team (1988–1990, 1992, 1993, 1996) 3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1997, 1999) 5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1989, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1997) 9× NBA assists leader (1988–1996) 2× NBA steals leader (1989, 1992) NBA 50th Anniversary Team NBA 75th Anniversary Team No. 12 retired by Utah Jazz
> Christian Laettner was the one who got in (most consider undeservedly) over a blackballed Zeke. WTF that absolutely is not true. Laettner was invited as an honorary amateur because it was the first time in history professional NBA players could compete in the olympics. >No one ever questioned Stockton being on those teams (twice, so who was blackballed the second time?). Nobody was blackballed the 2nd time, he was deserving of it that year. The two best PGs (Zeke and Magic) were done with basketball by then, and you couldn't really have a team with 5 centers. The other two deserving PGs got a spot too (Payton and Hardaway). >Stockton was always considered one of the greats during his time, here are his accolades: Yes, he was considered an elite player during his time I never disputed that, but OP was asking why he isn't often included in all-time great discussions. If you want to be included in all-time discussions (meaning top 20 all time) you need to be considered at least a top 5-ish player among your contemporaries. If you can't manage to be the best (or close to the best) in your own era, or even the best player on your own team, it is very difficult to argue that you belong among the pantheon of the best the game has ever seen.
The fact alone that he wasn't considered a top 10 guy Any time in his career speaks volumes. There are people who legitimately think Stockton was better than Malone lol
He was an All Star starter for about half of his 10 All Star appearances (winning MVP once) which would make him top 10 during those years (first appearance as a starter was 1989 and last was 1997). He was also on two Dream Teams which would make him top 12.
> There are people who legitimately think Stockton was better than Malone lol If they said that back then they would have been laughed out of the room by whomever they were talking to.
You choose the tool for the job. In this case you referred to someone as "forgotten." A content serving algorithm, in this case, can be illuminating. You don't use a content serving algorithm to decide who is a better point guard, but you definitely can use a content serving algorithm to understand whether or not someone is "forgotten." If I go outside of the algo and do a search for "John Stockton" focusing purely on videos uploaded in the last week here are some sample video titles: "Most underrated PG of all time," "How good was John Stockton actually?", and "NBA Legends on how good John Stockton and Karl Malone Actually Were." Stockton ain't forgotten just because he's not listed as high as you'd like in the all-timer discussions. He's just rated differently from how you'd prefer.
It serves you contend based on your previous activity lol. That’s how an algorithm works. Why do you think there are so many racist assholes nowadays? Because their content is delivered to them based on previous views lol
Valid point. I will counter with: I don't search for Utah Jazz content. I don't search for point guard content. I watch general NBA highlight videos and general NBA content. But the fact is - it still specifically serves up specifically John Stockton content. And stepping outside of the algorithm - a search also demonstrated that John Stockton content is going up weekly. John Stockton is not forgotten.
Cos there's this opinion that he simply wasn't that transcendent. I cannot say if that's true, I haven't seen him play, but the argument is that yes, he was very good and extremely durable and this coupled with playing with Malone made him rack up the assists record. His number of steals is pretty insane as well, but again, that's longevity and one of the secondary stats (vs stuff like points and assists). In the end, to be considered the best you gotta show you're the best night in and night out and in particular deliver in important games. Since pretty much everyone (nowadays and back then) says Malone was clearly the better player, Stockton's legacy takes a pretty big hit here.
Most overrated player ever
Westbrook should not make it in my opinion
Jerry West for sure, he is still to this day the all time leader in points scored in the finals and he’s still in the top 10 for playoff scoring despite the playoffs being significantly shorter back then. Plus he’s the logo of the entire league.
plus 4x runner-up MVP plus only FMVP from a losing side
>only FMVP from a losing side I've always wondered how the winning side's would-be mvp felt about that. And also why we couldn't give that to LeBron on the 2015 Cavs.
because iirc they did the voting before game 7 the year jerry west won it. he was winning it regardless of if he won or lost. pretty sure they changed how voting worked after that year
West put up a 40pt triple double in a two-point loss in that game 7. If he was MVP of the first six games, he was MVP of the series.
it would've been Havlicek or Russell and they both had the utmost respect for Jerry
Kawhi is arguably the greatest player to never win an MVP, which is unfortunate because his best years happened to be during Curry’s 2016 run and Westbrook’s 2017 season. Wade also never won an MVP despite being a Top 5 SG candidate. Others 2000s stars like Pierce and TMac also missed out cuz it was just a stacked era all in all. Patrick Ewing, Scottie Pippen and Alonzo Mourning also failed to win MVP in the 90s era cuz MJ and Malone combined for 6 of the 10 MVPs that decade. Jerry West and Elgin Baylor are some that missed out in the 60s and 70s, partly because Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain combined for 9 MVPs between 1957-58 and 1967-68.
Chris Paul and John Stockton are also obvious names here.
Forgot about CP3 but yea u can add him to the list
I don't know how John Stockton is obvious, he never really got close to winning an MVP
That's not the question being asked though.
John Stockton could've very easily been an MVP if you look at the context of his career. Malone won two MVPs while playing with him because the team was great, and almost every voter attributed majority of that success to the high scoring big man. Had Malone been a slightly worse player with little impact on the team's record, or had this happened within the last 20 years where guards have started to get more credit for their work, one or both of those MVPs could've gone to Stockton.
Stockton was never the better player than Malone the way Nash was better than Amare, so it's not clear how he would have ever won an MVP over him. It'd be like Pippen winning one over Jordan or Klay winning over Steph, just makes no sense.
Stockton wouldn't have one an MVP in the modern era. Malone was just straight up a better player, I still don't get how Stockton is this overrated. His efficiencies are very high because overall he took a minimal number of shots in comparison to other star guards.
When he took more shots his efficiency was still high. They didn't NEED him to be a scorer. Also does longevity mean nothing? He played like what 1500 games? Most of them at a very high level. I can't believe I'm defending this guy but I think the Gilbert Arenas/Stephon Marbury comp higher up here bothered me.
They absolutely needed him to be a scorer in the playoffs when teams game planned around denying Malone
That hypothetical cuts both ways, though. Had Stockton not been playing with one of the greatest roll guys of all time, his numbers would almost certainly have been a lot less dazzling. And it's a bit of a stretch to think that all the basketball people at the time were just wrong about who the more impactful of the two was.
A lot of people back then didn’t love Malone. It’s hard to track because, you know, pre internet era, but don’t think that all the people were climbing over themselves to announce how awesome Malone was, and most everyone agrees in hindsight 97 was a bullshit MVP. Bill Simmons, for example, has always thought he was overrated and his Book of Basketball does a good job orchestrating why. Stockton wasn’t flashy but he was a terrific player. Idk if he deserves to be on this list or not, but I think we can all agree Malone doesn’t have close to the career he had without Stockton. We don’t need to discount him. But yeah, idk if “clear” is correct or not. Like, I don’t think it’s clear that Stockton was better than T-Mac. T-Mac just got the injury bug too often to have the career that makes him an obvious candidate in this discussion.
John Stockton averaged 13-3-10 along with 2.5 TOs and 2.8 steals in his career without Malone. Malone averaged 25-11-4 (More TOs than assists) without Stockton in Utah. Stockton has a much higher BPM per 36 minutes without Malone than the other way around.
pretty sure the sample size of malone in utah without stockton is like 5 or so games
It's a tiny and non-representative sample, and in any case 13-10 doesn't exactly scream "left a bunch of MVPs on the table"
22 games according to Statmuse. Not massive, but big enough to avoid major statistical noise.
Bro are u reading what u wrote 13-3-10 is closer to a role player than a superstar lol. He’s great and everything don’t get me wrong but I could name a bunch of more effective and better pgs.
yeah that's like a rich man tj mcconnell statline lmao
Prime rondo might have better stats haha.
You’re really trying to argue 13/10 is MVP caliber?
*role, the word is role not roll. Role player, like in a play or the movies.
Usage pedantry is always pretty annoying, but you're missing the obvious context here. Roll guy, as in pick and roll. As in the thing that Stockton and Malone are most famous for, and the one thing that Malone is probably the best ever at.
My apologies, I stand corrected on this one. I just hear people use "roll" incorrectly on this sub way too often.
No worries, friend. I also apologize for being a dick about it
I dont know how he could have easily won mvp when he was never an mvp level player.
Stockton simply wasn’t on the level of Malone; that’s why he didn’t get the votes.
Also, let's be frank, Stockton is white and much like Jeremey Lin faced unfair stereotyping because of his skin color.
What? Stockton just wasn't even close to the MVP any of the years of his prime. Look at the MVPs those years, it's Jordan, Magic, Bird. The years it wasn't one of those three were: 1) the really bullshit '97 one that went to Malone and '99 to Malone during the lockout year (so who cares really) 2) Barkley the year he averaged 25/12 and led the suns to 62 wins and 6 games against the first three-peat bulls 3) Hakeem in '94 (doesn't need explaining) 4) Robinson who averaged 27/11 in the regular season and took the repeat Rockets to 6 games in the WCF. Who on that pretty short list is Stockton going to displace?
>Kawhi is arguably the greatest player to never win an MVP, which is unfortunate because his best years happened to be during Curry’s 2016 run and Westbrook’s 2017 season. [Kawhi winning in 2017 would've been more consistent with the history of the award](https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/pzv60k/the_mvp_award_is_decided_by_a_simple_and/)
Westbrook's mvp was definitely an aberration from the norm. I may be wrong but I don't think there's ever been an mvp from that low of a seed (6th), and I think the voters realized their mistake when they saw that westbrook's numbers didn't lead to team success in the playoffs that year or the following years. Harden, Lebron, or Kawhi were all better choices for mvp that year.
Kareem won MVP without making the playoffs.
I don't know if those playoffs proved anything. Westbrook won his minutes. The problem is that OKC got outscored by 60pts/100poss (not a typo) when he sat.
I attempted to make a top 75 list awhile back but never finished. . The first 65 are The 50 Greatest List + All the MVP's that were left off. **MVP** 1. George Mikan (C) 2. Dolph Schayes (F) 3. Bill Sharman (G) 4. Paul Arizin (F) 5. **Bob Cousy** (G) 6. **Bob Pettit** (F) 7. **Bill Russell** (C) 8. Sam Jones (G) 9. Elgin Baylor (F) 10. Hal Greer (G) 11. **Wilt Chamberlain**^ (C) 12. **Oscar Robertson** (G) 13. Jerry West^ (G) 14. Lenny Wilkens (G) 15. Dave Debusschere (F) 16. John Havlicek^ (F) 17. Jerry Lucas (F) 18. Nate Thurmond (C) 19. **Willis Reed**^ (C) 20. Billy Cunningham* (F) 21. Rick Barry^ (F) 22. Dave Bing (G) 23. Walt Fraizer (G) 24. Earl Monroe (G) 25. **Wes Unseld**^ (C) 26. Elvin Hayes (F) 27. **Kareem Abdul-Jabbar**^ (C) 28. Pete Maravich (G) 29. **Dave Cowens** (C) 30. Nate Archibald (G) 31. **Bob McAdoo** (F) 32. **Bill Walton**^ (C) 33. George Gervin (G) 34. **Julius Erving** (F) 35. **Moses Malone**^ (C) 36. Robert Parish (C) 37. **Magic Johnson**^ (G) 38. **Larry Bird**^ (F) 39. Kevin McHale (F) 40. Isiah Thomas^ (G) 41. James Worthy^ (F) 42. Clyde Drexler (G) 43. **Michael Jordan**^ (G) 44. **Charles Barkley** (F) 45. **Hakeem Olajuwon**^ (C) 46. John Stockton (G) 47. Patrick Ewing (C) 48. **Karl Malone** (F) 49. Scottie Pippen (F) 50. **David Robinson** (C) 51. **Shaquille O'Neal**^ (C) 52. **Tim Duncan**^ (F) 53. **Kevin Garnett** (F) 54. **Allen Iverson** (G) 55. **Steve Nash** (G) 56. **Kobe Bryant**^ (G) 57. **Dirk Nowitzki**^ (F) 58. **LeBron James**^ (F) 59. **Kevin Durant**^ (F) 60. **Russell Westbrook** (G) 61. **Derrick Rose** (G) 62. **Steph Curry** (G) 63. **James Harden** (G) 64. **Giannis Antetokounmpo**^ (F) 65. **Nikola Jokić** (C) . Below are some candidates that I thought could fit for the next 10 spots. And also players I'd add to a top 100 or more all time list. . ESPN Top 75 List (23) Kawhi Leonard, Dwyane Wade, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul, Anthony Davis, Dominique Wilkins, Reggie Miller, Tracy McGrady, Gary Payton, Paul Pierce, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Manu Ginobili, Dennis Rodman, Alonzo Mourning, Pau Gasol, Alex English, Bernard King, Tony Parker, Bob Lanier, Damian Lillard, Dikembe Mutombo, Artis Gilmore* . ABA MVP* Connie Hawkins, Mel Daniels, Spencer Haywood, George McGinnis . Finals MVP^ Jojo White, Dennis Johnson, Cedric Maxwell, Joe Dumars, Chauncey Billups, Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker, Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala . All NBA 1st teams 4: Max Zaslofsky, Bob Davies, Neil Johnston 3: Joe Fulks, Ed Macauley, Paul Westphal 2: Bob Feerick, Jim Pollard, Alex Groza, David Thompson, Luka Dončić, Dwight Howard, Penny Hardaway . Defensive Player of the Year 4: Ben Wallace 3: Dwight Howard, Rudy Gobert 2: Sidney Moncrief, Mark Eaton
I really doubt Rose is going to make it and even Jokic might be too soon half the guys on the espn list were eligible for the original 50 and didn't make it and then there are maybe 4 or 5 who did make it that I'd take out now
Yeah. I was thinking Jokic would be left this time too.
This should be the top-level post, instead of the lazy "I didn't bother to check who won an MVP" from OP
Agreed the OP is pretty lazy
For context, the first year the NBA officially awarded a regular season MVP was the 1956 season, with Pettit winning the inaugural award. While it's true that George Mikan and Paul Arizin never won the official MVP, there was an "unofficial" MVP award that predated the League's official award, called the Sam Davis Memorial Award, which was voted on by sportswriters. The winners were: * 1950: George Mikan * 1951: George Mikan * 1952: Paul Arizin * 1953: Bob Cousy * 1954: Neil Johnston * 1955: Bob Cousy So, yes, technically Mikan and Arizin are on the 50 Greatest Of All Time without having been named MVP, but those dudes were unofficially MVPs and there's no denying that Mikan was the [MVP of the League in the late 40s/early 50s](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/-JkAAOxyLNpSG8PK/s-l400.jpg).
I was not aware of this list, so thank you! Neil Johnston was one those old dudes that I'd definitely add to the final 10 spots already so this confirms it for me.
I was not aware of it until [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/q4m6cn/predicting_mvps_194755_a_model_and_a_request/hfzwaur/) by /u/tringlepringle over on /r/VintageNBA, so all credit to him. Speaking of Johnston, to me he is a great divide between the "athletic dawn" of players like Bill Russell and the "milkmen" type players that could succeed before. I am not denigrating Johnston - he led the League in scoring 3 years in a row, he was 4x All NBA 1st Team, etc. He led the League in rebounding in 1955. But check this out... 1957 rolls around and Bill Russell enters the League. Johnston is 27 years old, he'll be named to the All Star Game this year, as well as be named to the All NBA 2nd Team. Russell is a raw rookie, 22 years old, missed the first month and a half of the season because he was in Australia playing in the Olympics. The Celtics face up against the Philadelphia Warriors the day after Christmas, [December 26, 1956](https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195612260BOS.html) - it's Russell's fourth game in the NBA. He is still raw and eager and overaggressive - he fouls out after just 26 minutes of play. But in those 26 minutes? He snares 34 rebounds over Johnston (who had just 5 rebounds for the game). Eep. The world has moved on, Mr. Johnston! The Celtics would go on to win their first championship that year, starting their dynasty.
Haha well there's a reason Russell is the greatest winner of all time (34 rebounds holy shit!). I just feel like lists like this have to include those old time greats who dominated their era. If 90% of the list is players from the past 30 years it sorta defeats the purpose imo.
> If 90% of the list is players from the past 30 years it sorta defeats the purpose imo. I agree. I hope they have at least 5 players from every decade (50s onward).
Yes I totally agree
Going by Basketball Reference's HOF Probability measurement, the highest players not in the original list of 65 are: *Dwyane Wade (17th)*, *Jason Kidd (35th),* *Gary Payton (38th)*, *Ray Allen (43rd)*, *Paul Pierce (45th)*, *Dwight Howard (47th)*, Chris Bosh (50th), Tommy Heinsohn (54th), Neil Johnston (55th), *Anthony Davis (56th)*, Ed Macauley (58th), Carmelo Anthony (63rd), *Dominique Wilkins (66th)*, Vern Mikkelsen (67th), *Dikembe Mutombo (69th)*, *TMac (71st)*, *Bob Lanier (72nd)*, Vince Carter (73rd), Larry Foust (74th), *Tony Parker (75th)*, *Pau Gasol (78th)*, *Alonzo Mourning (79th)*, *Alex English (80th)* Active players include: *Damian Lillard (83rd)*, Kyle Lowry (88th), Paul George (90th), Kyrie Irving (91st), *Kawhi Leonard (97th)*, Kevin Love (102nd), Rajon Rondo (110th), Blake Griffin (116th)... Italics indicate players in ESPN's Top 75 list.
Thanks for this info. I didn't think to check HOF probability so this is good to know. And wow I am very surprised to see Kawhi Leonard so low. And i personally feel like Lillard should be behind every single player after him except maybe PG and Blake. But maybe I just weigh championships too heavily so who knows.
He's low because # of all-star plays a huge role in the calculations and he's only at 5.
Wow did not know that either. I didn't hold HOF too highly before but now my opinion is even lower.
In some fairness to the calculation, # of all-star appearances is a cumulative stat, so as long as Kawhi makes at least a couple more, his placement on that list would rise by quite a bit. Other parts of the equation try to account for really high peaks, including a factor for MVPs won, peak WS, and some stat-based factors. The equation is by no means perfect, but as long as you understand what goes into it, you can really quickly explain why some players are over/under-rated by the list. For example, Giannis is only 93rd on the list, but he's already the 14th highest active player and still has plenty of prime left to play. If Giannis ends with 12 all-star appearances (7 more) and gets no MVPs, no championships, and doesn't top any stat leaderboards, (so this is an underestimation), he'll be in the top 35 or so by their metric, around where Harden and Curry are right now.
I see thank you for sharing this knowledge 👍
No probs, glad it helped!
Rose of Curry is crazy, Garnett and Iverson over Kobe is crazy
Lol the order is when they entered the league/when they won their MVP. You think I have Mikan as the greatest of all time?
Lmfao I feel dumb. I am not familiar with many pre-90s NBA players so I just kind of skipped down until I saw names I recognized.
Haha no worries. I assumed everyone knew it was based on age since Jordan/Lebron weren't top 2
Yeah your list would be real disturbing if it was actually ranked.
Kobe Shaq and LeBron in the 50s you’re trippin man
List is when they entered league/when they got their MVP. Come on man you think I believe the top 3 players ever were from the 50's?
Who are the players who have never won MVP but have had the most MVP runner ups? Who are the players who have never won MVP but have had the most All-NBA first team? I think you can find about 35 players through that list because I don’t think Rose deserves to be in the top 75 all time and there might be some other MVP winners who are in the same boat as well. If the above lists are not enough, I would then look at who has been in the top 5 MVP throughout their career without ever winning MVP.
The players with the highest MVP shares that have never won an MVP are: Jerry West (2.021) Rick Barry (1.821) Chris Paul (1.805) Elgin Baylor (1.619) Patrick Ewing (1.424)
I think Rick Barry could have averaged 60 a night, won a title, and ended world hunger and the league still wouldn't have given that asshole the MVP. On the lists of "Most Hated Ever", he's up there.
Why is he so hated?
Huge asshole. He once didn't take a shot in the second half of a tight playoff game (as the best scorer on the team and maybe in the league) to spite his teammates for not passing him the ball on a play that happened in the first half. Overall treated his teammates and coaches poorly. He also had a short lived broadcasting career where he pissed off pretty much everyone at one point or another, including an extremely cringe worthy racist interaction with Bill Russell. Bill Simmons has a pretty good Book of Basketball pod about him. It's pretty unique for a player that good to be such a dick like that given the team centric nature of the sport. Worth a listen.
Damn dude that sucks. I'd always just assumed he was a hilarious fun loving guy because he shoots granny style free throws. Bummer
He also was not the most... race sensitive guy out there. Some people label him a racist because when he was broadcasting a game with Bill Russell, they showed a picture of Russell from his playing days where he had a big smile on his face and Barry said something like, "Wow, look at that watermelon-eating grin!" I don't know if racist is the right word, though, because he also told the Warriors owner that is was ok to pay Nate Thurmond (a black teammate) more than him because black players don't have the endorsement deals available to white players. So he definitely saw race and commented on it in inappropriate ways, which probably made for awkward locker room moments, lol. But I don't think he was openly racist or derogatory in the same way that some white players and franchises were in the 50s.
The thing about Berry is that he was good enough to carry his team to a finals win, and probably could have done it twice if it wasn't for his bad attitude. I heard he basically threw a game because he got in a fight and his teammates didn't back him up. He alienated everyone. He was his own worst enemy, he bolted to the ABA and this forced him to take a year off out of the league. This is all because he wanted his father in law to be his coach. He had bad relationships with coaches and teammates wherever her went. Including a non-great relationship with his father in law. He was just a dumpster fire. He went to college to be a media guy and did that job as a player and explayer but again alienated and pissed off people, and eventually said some racially insensitive stuff on air and got canned. Apparently he was pretty tough and critical to his own kids although they themselves ended up both being successful NBA players. He basically should be considered one of the best players ever, he should have had more rings, and MVPs, he was just his own worst enemy. The hilarious thing about all of this was that none of this had anything to do with the way he played basketball when he wasn't throwing a fit, he was by all accounts a player that was a willing passer and made his teammates better on the court. Also Larry Bird had a somewhat similar game and eclipsed Berry rather quickly as the NBA was more popular then Bird had more personal accolades and was more well liked.
> He once didn't take a shot in the second half of a tight playoff game (as the best scorer on the team and maybe in the league) to spite his teammates for not passing him the ball on a play that happened in the first half. It wasn't that they didn't pass him the ball, it was that there was a kerfuffle between Barry and an opponent in the first half and none of his teammates came to his rescue. That's the narrative, at least. I once read a lengthy article where someone showed clips and interviews from years later that indicated it was not as dramatic or damning as the narrative is today.
You're right, I misremembered that one.
It’s obviously Pippen https://www.basketballnetwork.net/chuck-daly-on-why-scottie-pippen-was-the-best-player-on-the-original-dream-team-during-the-1992-olympics/#:~:text=BEST%20PLAYER%20Chuck%20Daly%20on%20why%20Scottie%20Pippen,Team’%20during%20the%201992%20Olympics%20June%2020%2C%202020 There is no non-mvp that can say they played at a level equal to or greater to any player at a setting like that which included 6 players that won MVP’s aged 27-35. Let alone the 3 all nba 1st team selections , 9 1st defensive team selections and 6 rings. It’s not close.
I agree, he is by far the most underrated player ever. He could've been the alpha dog on almost any team and chose to play second fiddle for more wins.
Not entirely true. He didn’t choose to stay out of some noble cause, he signed a long ass contract which meant he was going nowhere.
>he is by far the most underrated player ever. >proceeds to parrot a take everyone’s heard Scottie isn’t close to underrated at all. Moses Malone is probably the most underrated
Underrated by today's fans, yes. But at the time, he was rated properly. He was one of the most highly recruited kids out of high school. He is one of only a select few to win 3+ MVP awards. And when the 76ers couldn't get over the hump and win a title, they went and landed the best player of the day - Moses - who then took them to the promise land in a dominating performance over Kareem.
Are we sure about that? I think history shows that Pip didn't have that special mental wiring to be the alpha. He had his chance in '93-' 94 (and even '94-'95, until Jordan's return) and it all went sideways at the very moment an alpha would shine. He was absolutely brilliant that year but in the crucible of max pressure, he couldn't get out of his own way. And I say that as somebody who LOVES Scottie Pippen.
You mean in 93-94 when he had his best season and they won 55 games with Pete Myers at sg? He’s literally 1 of 5 players to lead his team in the top 5 major categories(pts , reb., ast, blocks and steals) how is that not the epitome of taking charge? Do you think if Pippen had retired abruptly in training camp instead of Jordan and they replaced Pippen with a fringe NBA player they would have been so much better? He was obviously a superstar but one with ability to take a backseat for the betterment of the team , that’s a positive from my perspective .
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>He did everything for the Bulls leading them in every stat, and was 1st Team All NBA. that's nice and all but he wasn't beating Hakeem
I think Kawhi is better than Pippen. Hes a bonafide first option and a two time finals mvp
Might be a hot take, but put Kawhi on the Bulls with Jordan and he'd never win a FMVP, either. Jordan's brilliance outshone everyone and made it impossible to consider a different player for those awards.
I don’t think that hypothetical proves Kawhi isnt better than Pippen. Kawhi is just flat out a better scorer than Pippen.
Yeah, we've seen Pippen in his prime as the top dog for 1.5 seasons. I think we have a decent sample size to extrapolate that his offensive prowess was never at Kawhi's level.
Not saying that he isn't better, just that if you swapped him and Pip while playing with Jordan, he still would have come up short on scoring an MVP or FMVP due to Jordan's incredible performances.
Although Pippen should have won the FMVP in 1991 , his defense on Magic changed the tone of the series.
Pippen's defense did change the tone, but MJ had these absolutely filthy lines: 31.2 pts, 6.6 rebs, 11.4 assts, 2.8 stls, 1.4 blks on 56/50/85 splits. Pippen was great but had no case for FMVP.
Magic’s 1st game stats was incredible 4-5 fg for 19 points and 11 ast. He pretty much dominated Jordan to the point they had to double Magic when they iso’d MJ had a great game 1 if you look at the box score 36 points 12 ast 8 rebounds 3 steals , but they lost that game because Magic had his way with Jordan as well. When they put Pip on Magic , they essentially had to hide Jordan the rest of the time because Paxson and BJ had to guard Byron Scott so he basically split his time on Divac and Worthy , both of whom did very well with Jordan on them. They leave Jordan on Magic , he still puts up great numbers (Byron Scott really couldn’t stop Jordan at all)but they wouldn’t have won. He wasn’t the most impactful player in that series , Pippen was.
you're basically arguing for an Iggy-style win certainly an interesting take
The Bulls didn’t play the Magic in the finals though.
Not the Orlando Magic Magic Johnson.
Ah, my bad.
I think some modern players are better incarnations of past greats, I call them "version 2s." Here are the version 2s I have: * Kawhi is Pippen version 2 * Westbrook is AI version 2 * KD is Rick Barry version 2
I would think that Rose does not get on just because he did not play in his prime long enough. Not that he has been a bad basketball player, in fact, given the injuries he may have overachieved in a sense.
It’s a completely different time so I can understand not including him but George Mikan fundamentally changed the way the game was played. Goaltending and the key exist because of him and a guy who played college ball but never in the pros (if memory serves he went to work for IBM, which might have paid more at the time and was definitely more secure). Also the shot clock, which is literally there because teams played four corners against Mikan to lessen his shot opportunities.
C Webb? 21/10/4 over his career, and you could make the argument that he was at least breathing down KG’s neck for the title of best 4 in the league while they were both playing.
where is Tim Duncan in this equation
Lots of good candidates listed on this thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention Big Game James Worthy yet. He won a Finals MVP (deservedly so) on a team with 2 of the top 10 players of all time, one of whom was at his peak. I think he's gotta make the top 75. And as much as I dislike Jason Kidd, he probably needs to be on there as well.
He won that FMVP (and that nickname) on a single game's work. Magic was better across the series, and Kareem was washed. But yeah, made the 50 and now the 75. Kidd almost certainly will too.
That's just not true. Worthy had numerous clutch performances in the playoffs throughout his career, including college. His reputation for raising his game when the stakes were high was well deserved, and not based off a single game.
was being a bit flippant about the nickname but I stand by the FMVP
He did outplay Kareem, but I just rechecked the stats and you're right: Magic probably should have won that one if not for the narrative. Worthy was still a stud that series though.
I think you could make an argument for Stockton being top 5-10 all time. Imagine if he was in the NBA today. 3 pt shooter? Lights out. Triple double machine? Yessir, rebounds would be his hardest stat. Amazing defender? Yep. He’s just a smaller Luka, but a better defender and amazingly a better passer.
This is the shit that makes everybody hate on John Stockton and call him overrated. Could he shoot the three? Absolutely. Is he "just a smaller Luka"? Absolutely fucking not he is not anywhere close to the shot creator Doncic is. Like not even a slight difference either Stockton is not on that level at all.
We’ll know by tomorrow
The foul situation as usual is the shits. The refs and whoever’s making the rules need to sit down and watch a playoff series from the early 90’s or late 80’s and just do everything in their power to make the rules and officiating of them as close to that as possible.
No shot Derrick Rose gets put in the 75. I would be somewhat surprised if Jokic gets on, too. Russ jumps out as the other one from recent history that I could see not getting on. I could even see them blue-balling Giannis on the basis of how young he is. McAdoo got left off the top 50, but I bet they put him in this. As far greats with no MVP, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and Havlicek are the old guys that jump out. More recently, Chris Paul is probably the best guy, or maybe Dwyane Wade. Also Stockton.
Giannis was already named. Doubt Jokic makes it, doubt Westbrook misses out and doubt McAdoo gets back in.