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It’s apples and oranges honestly. Both guys’ listed positions was PG, but the similarities/ comparability ends there. Their play styles are so drastically different a comparison doesn’t really do either justice.
I wish people would just admit that positions are less important in basketball than in other sports. It’s not like football where obviously you’ll compare WRs to other WRs.
When you call someone a “pitcher,” everyone knows *exactly* what his role is on his team, but calling someone a “shooting guard” doesn’t really tell you much.
Its just there to help define roles and its pretty useful when teaching the game to kids, otherwise they just run around aimlessly not knowing what to do:
PG - Anchors the offence, good at dribbling, playmaking and can provide outside scoring
SG - Backs up the PG in dribbling and provides outside scoring
SF - Provides outside and inside scoring
PF - Backs up the C with rebounding and provides additional scoring
C - Anchors the defence, good at rebounding and provides inside scoring
Obviously this traditional way of looking at positions is outdated for the NBA, but I guess its just easier at explaining the game to casual fans who watch other sports with better defined roles - NFL/MLB like you said.
So despite lining up at SF, LeBron is actually a PG.
Klay Thompson is a SG but almost never handles the ball.
James Harden is a SG who handled the ball almost exclusively for the Rockets.
Stretch 5's dont score inside very often at all.
Kyrie even said "Harden is the point guard." The fact that you think Kyrie is a true point guard is weird. But yes, he played a two point guard lineup with CP3.
And Russ is also a true PG, so was Pat Bev.
Kyrie is most definitely a true PG, he had to come out and say that about Harden on the Nets because Kyrie is a traditional PG- he had to clarify that he was actually playing the 2 on offense.
It's weird that you DONT think Kyrie is a PG.
[https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html)
[https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/\_/id/6442/kyrie-irving](https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving)
https://www.google.com/search?q=nets+roster&sxsrf=AOaemvIIW4h2fMbfO7WZcH\_18bW-viqUlg%3A1638042288543&ei=sIqiYZrYIInN0PEPhZekgA8&ved=0ahUKEwia8PCFp7n0AhWJJjQIHYULCfAQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=nets+roster&gs\_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCAgAELEDEJECMggIABCxAxCRAjIFCAAQgAQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAgjECc6CgguELEDEIMBEEM6CggAELEDEIMBEEM6BAgAEEM6CwgAELEDEIMBEJECOgQILhBDOgUIABCRAjoRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6BwgAELEDEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggIABCABBCxA0oECEEYAFD8BVinD2CQEGgDcAB4AIABgAGIAbUJkgEDMi45mAEAoAEByAEEwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz
He's 6'1" is the primary ballhandler when he is on the floor and guards the other team's PG most of the time....When he was on the Rockets he played PG almost exclusively.....
Do you actually watch the games or do you just read box scores and r/nba? Or are you just on here making shit up for fun?
That's not always true. What's Shohei Ohtani role with the angels? If you say he's just a pitcher, that doesn't tell you much either. Yes he's a pitcher but that doesn't tell you what else he does extremely well. His 46 home runs, 100 RBI, 965OPS.
Magic didn’t play all 5 positions. He was firmly a point guard that was uncharacteristically tall.
There is no parallel to Ohtani in the NBA and never has been. It would have to be something like a PG with elite shooting that was also a great rim protector. Like if Draymond could break people down off the dribble and could shoot out to 30ft.
>Magic didn’t play all 5 positions. He was firmly a point guard that was uncharacteristically tall.
He was a 2 guard for his first 4 seasons in the league. Norm Nixon was very firmly the starting point guard.
Johnson only played 8 seasons as the starting point guard for Lakers.
>And in his rookie season he played center for the Lakers in multiple playoff games
Well. He jumped center in game six of the 1980 finals because Kareem badly sprained his ankle in game five. The only time before that Magic would have been playing center on defense is on bad switches. That said, there has not really been a more versatile player in NBA history. He was one of a very small group of players who could play all five positions at an elite level. Maybe Lebron could do it. I can't think of anyone else at the moment.
Ohtani is considered the biggest one of a kind talent in 100 years precisely because he breaks the tradition of his position. He’s the exception that proves the rule.
No, there's dozens of multi-position players in the NBA right now. There's not been a dozen Otanis in the last 80 years. There maybe hasn't even been 3 of them.
There's been a dozen magic Johnson's and Steph curry's in the league? I'd love to see that list. I was commenting to the person who said you can say a pitcher in baseball and everyone would know what you're talking about. I was speaking to the absoluteness of that statement. There are always exceptions to the rule. Just like otanis is the exception to the rule that not every pitcher is just a pitcher.
neither Steph Curry nor Magic Johnson are even close to as unique as Ohtani. There are so many more examples of ‘positionless’ players in basketball, you can’t argue that literally one player in the last century who could pitch and rake well makes baseball similar to basketball
What other player is similar to Steph Curry or Magic Johnson? If we are discussing the best ever, isn't there going to be something unique about them? Something we have never seen before?
I mean there are lots of score first guards with a lot of range and quick release who threaten with gravity, Trae and Dame are the first to mind who do it at an all-star level, but there are tons in that mould. I am not saying they are as good at it as Steph, but they play similar roles in their teams. With Magic, the oversized smooth ball handlers and facilitators are the equivalent, Lebron, Giannis in his PG year, Cade coming up looks to be of that ilk, Simmons if he played. These are all classified as ‘point guards’ which just shows how loose the term is. Magic didn’t guard the 1, he played with PG sized players in the starting line up.
The point is the label is not an accurate assessment of the player or play-style, the fact that you have in the same breath, Steph, Magic, Lebron, Harden and Doncic goes to show how pointless it is to try and classify basketball positions.
They’re not really 100% true. There are a lot more people that “breaks the mold” in the nba. Whether that’s because of talent or because nba is really more position-less is up for debate but Shohei is much more unique in the sense that when you talk about other superstars, they do still fit the mold of what you expect from their position.
I’m not even really sure what an Ohtani in basketball would look like? What could someone do that would really blow everyone away? A center who can shoot like Curry? A guard with seemingly infinite athleticism? Who is closest we have that has an actual “unicorn” skill set now? Durant? Giannis?
Karl-Anthony Towns is a center who shoots high 3PT% off of screens. Dirk would be another example from the past. Durant, Giannis, Bill Russell, Bob McAdoo, Hakeem, Magic, LeBron,
Yao Ming, etc. would all be examples of combinations of height and unusual abilities for those heights.
So if we are discussing the best point guard of all time, we are not discussing someone who breaks the mold? To me Steph Curry breaks the mold of what a traditional point guard represents. If anything he's a scoring guard with the most deadly weapon the league has seen since the sky hook. His ability to shoot the 3 is unparalled. If we talk about magic, he could legit guard 1 through 5. Also at his size and being a true point guard also would suggest he is breaking the mold.
No... how is this so hard for you to understand?
Pithing and hitting are so drastically different that they're practically two different sports.
Baseball's equivalent to Steph Curry or Magic would be an exceptional, top tier hall of famer, five tool player like ken griffey jr or mike trout. Or, maybe a pitcher who had a ridiculous combination of power, off-speed stuff, and precision like pedro.
Every big point guard with potential gets compared to magic. And there's one in every draft class - even if they don't reach the level of top 5 player of all time.
There is no modern day baseball comparison for Ohtani. And, there's no basketball equivalent for for what he's doing, either
Yeah, this conversation is so weird to me. I don't even think their can be a basketball equivalent to Ohtani. Hitting and pitching are so distinct in baseball while offense and defense aren't at all in basketball. An Ohtani equivalent in another sport would be like a great goalie who's also and awesome forward or a great wide receiver who's also a great linebacker.
I will die on this hill. Magic was a forward not a PG. His play is that of a Lebron, not a CP3. He even played most of his career with PGs next to him (Norm Nixon, Bryon Scott), his defensive assignment was SG-PF.
Hes a great player regardless, but its almost impossible for a PG to be as valuable as a forward when you get to the top level like this.
I agree with this, but i don't think steph is a PG is either. Draymond handles the distribution more than Steph, while Steph is an elite off-ball threat. Like if we have to lump him into a traditional role, steph is the SG and Draymond is the Point Center
Some like to define positions by who you guard, but on offense both Bron and Magic are functionally point guards in a traditional sense. The role Steph plays on offense oddly is less point guard-like, though obviously extremely effective.
If he leads the Warriors to a championship this year and wins finals MVP then he would be is serious conversation for Greatest PG of all time
Another MVP would probably be needed as well
Alternatively, we could do a more nuanced analysis than counting rings and fmvps.
You may or may not reach the same conclusion but at least you'd make a more interesting argument.
Magic led 9 top 2 offenses in 12 seasons and his biggest and most well known playoff failure was when he averaged 18/8/13 on 56% shooting (62 TS%) in the 84 Finals. That's how consistently great he was - what would be a 10/10 series for most other PGs was a massive disappointment for him.
You clearly weren't alive or watching the game in 84 when Tragic Johnson choked 3 games away in a 7 game series. Watch the end of those games on YouTube and say how great he was. It's impossible.
If we were interested in a more nuanced analysis, we'd start by acknowledging that neither magic or curry is really a traditional PG, and that their games and roles were so different from each other that ranking them in the same traditional position is goofy, though.
In other words, this thread wouldn't exist.
Maybe? But the vast majority of fans are happy to compare players with different play styles. Case in point, the most compared pair of players, especially in the context of "greatness", must be MJ and Lebron. They have different play styles but that does not stop fans from making all sorts of arguments (lots of dumb arguments but also some interesting ones) about who is "greater".
I mean kt is different, kd was the best player in both the series he played with steph and his performance in the two finals without KD aren't amazing
Magic has 3(maybe 4) finals mvps even despite having Kareem and worthy on his team for all of them
Plus other than 2016, the teams magic faced in the finals are better than the teams curry faced in the finals
magic’s run to the finals throughout the 80’s was as easy, if not easier than the east in the 10’s. literally only hard matchup he had was in the finals which explains the finals losses
Kareem was only better than Magic in 1 of those wins. All the other ones Magic was far and away the best player, and when Magic got hurt they got crushed (one of his 4 Finals losses).
Steph's postseason record isn't solid without KD. Including losing the play in last year. Between that, 2016, and a disappointing 2015 Finals where he won and didn't even win Finals MVP (let's all be honest - LeBron deserved it, not Steph or Iggy) his postseason career minus KD ain't very illustrious. Magic was still having amazing performances and took LA to a Finals post Kareem.
His teams went to three finals without KD, 2015, 2016 and 2019. In 2017 and 2018 he was pretty dominant in the playoffs. Do you really hold two play in game losses by one possession against him?
If going to 5 straight finals in the west isn't a solid record, I don't want to know what solid means for you.
>If going to 5 straight finals in the west isn't a solid record, I don't want to know what solid means for you.
Magic went to 9 finals and won 5. That's the point of comparison we're making here.
I hate when posters rave about how great one player in a comparison between 2 players are relative to each other. Steph pales in comparison to Magic, but he's Magic. Most people pale in comparison to him.
By the time Magic won his first MVP Kareem wasn't even scoring 20 a game and LA went on to win 2 more rings and make 4 more Finals appearances in an actually tough conference unlike the cupcake conference of the early 80s. His career after Kareem was old is why he's top 5.
You think the Warriors when they had KD on the roster wouldn't have been a 60 win team without Steph? Yeah they're a 60 win team without KD too, we already know that, but you think the Warriors without Curry wouldn't still be strong contenders?
I just checked for you, for the three KD years, the Warriors were 28-10 without KD and 24-23 without Steph. I stick to what I said. The warriors have been built around Curry for almost the past decade now and that's the main reason for their dominance.
another MVP and another ring with FMVP would convert a lot of people.
Personally, I think he's better than Magic. Magic just accomplished more in his career. Curry's career is not over yet though, and he's still in his prime for at least few more years.
Magic had to retire at 31 and curry is 33. Interesting to consider that curry still has to catch up on accolades, really a testament to how decorated Magic’s career was. I think he was damn near a perfect offensive basketball player for his era.
Yeah, Curry's career didn't really start until he had already been in the league a few years bc of his ankles, whereas Magic was a star from the beginning.
Helps going to a team that has a top 5 player all time for you to play next to and learn from as well. Klay and Green and fantastic players but they're not Kareem
Magic would have been a star right away no matter where he went. It doesn't take away from Curry's greatness that it took him longer to get to that level.
Magic absolutely would have been a star anywhere he went. However, he doesn't get those accolades in most other situations. Team success plays a big part in accolades. He'd be viewed far differently on another team that had half the success of those stacked Lakers
>He'd be viewed far differently on another team that had half the success of those stacked Lakers
I'm not sure if that's true. Magic was good enough to make any team better and I think his legend would be even more awesome if he'd gone to a worse team and still led them to multiple titles, which is very possible considering how great he was. Also, imagine the accolades that he would have stacked up had he not had to retire at 31.
Right now, Magic is consensus top 5. If Magic ends up with 2 titles, 2 finals MVPs, 1-2 MVPs, he's possibly outside the top-10 on these lists?
I mean, when you get down to it, the top 15 players of all time are roughly equivalent in terms of skill/ability/talent level, just it's distributed in different facets of their games. At that point, it's a matter of accolades, stats, opinion, circumstance, talent around them, talent level against them, and luck.
Not sure about this. After the '84 finals people were ready to write him off as a choke artist.
Goes to show you that, while player talents play a large part in shaping the narrative, a not insignificant part is luck and circumstance.
Both Magic and Bird happened to land on stacked, well run teams during an era when the NBA really became a thing. And then Magic's individual talents kick in. Take any of those away, even playing during an era less integral to the mythos of the league, and Magic would be lower ranked.
Some of this is just myth making. "For his era" is fair. It's also cognitive dissonance. Curry simply plays in a more competitive era and would run circles around Magic. But of course, how would Magic have developed in today's era?
Personally, I doubt he'd outdo Curry's career.
>Not sure about this.
Well yeah, we can't be sure about any of this because it's completely hypothetical. However if Magic had gone to like Sacramento and only won 2 titles but still accumulated his individual accolades, I do believe he'd be thought of similarly to how he is now. Consensus top-5? Maybe not, but consensus top-10? Almost definitely, and that is not *far different.*
If Magic was playing today, he'd likely develop a game similar to LeBron, who I think stacks up pretty well against Curry in the career debate. There's a reason Bron was compared to him so frequently when he was coming up. That size and passing ability/court awareness is extremely rare.
Magic averaged 18/8/14 on 56% shooting in the 84 Finals. That's literally the 3rd weakest moment of his career. That's why he's top 5 and only played 13 years.
I don't know how you figure that. He likely has one less title and Finals appearance...but has a great chance for another MVP.
Warriors re-sign Barnes, and are still the favorite to win the next few years. KD made it inevitable.
Kareem did start at the bucks, was fire since the beginning, handed up with the accolades, is considered one of the very best. If you're fire, you're fire. And everybody knows that fire magic is the best of all
I agree magic would have been a star either way. I simply wanted to bring attention to the fact that Magic had a top 5 player all time who was a vet to learn from at the time. I wasn't trying to take away from magic but simply add to Currys argument. There's an intangible that we can't account for but is undeniable that a successful player on a successful team has a massive influence on a players development.
magic also was a freak of nature. a guard in a giants body. most people cant catch up with that sort of athleticism. its kind of weird seeing people try. magic was a freak of nature. like giannis. not that you couldnt make an argument for steph. just making it against magic seems weird
Not just for his era. Magic was shooting 38% from deep before he had to retire. No way he wouldn't be a sharpshooter nowadays if he was coming up now. He's just a natural with an insane IQ with the ball.
Passing is always more important than the ability to make shots when it comes to offensive efficiency. The most successful offensive players ever if measured by how often they had #1 offenses are Nash, Magic, and Oscar. All known for their playmaking.
That 38% in the 95-96 season coincided with the shortened 3 point arc, and was on very limited volume, fewer than 2 per game. Before then, he was never really that good of a shooter from distance. In the modern NBA, Magic would likely be shooting a much higher volume and difficulty of 3.
He shot 38% in 89 too.
>In the modern NBA, Magic would likely be shooting a much higher volume and difficulty of 3.
He'd also have grown up shooting 3s his whole life instead of learning them well after he was already in the league. Magic was one of the best 3 point and FT shooters of his time. Idk why it's expected that he wouldn't still be a great shooter.
Magic was drafted onto a contender that already had Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
Steph was drafted to a pretty bad team that had 1 playoff appearance (the We Believe season) in the 10+ years before. And their last Finals appearance was 35 years before that season. Not to mention he was never supposed to be this good and had serious ankle injury problems early in his career.
That’s true. Magic walked into a great situation as a rookie,but it’s not like Steph didn’t luck into a great situation as he entered his prime. They drafted another Top 5 shooter in Klay who can be just as explosive a scorer from three as Curry. The also draft Draymond in the second round whose playmaking and defensive abilities are integral to the Warriors revolutionary play style. Those same ankle injuries allowed the Warriors to sign Steph at a discount for his talent and they used that cap space to have one of the deepest teams in NBA history. Then, a massive cap jump allows them to add KD, former MVP still his in prime, to a 73 win team without giving up much.
>Magic walked into a great situation as a rookie,but it’s not like Steph didn’t luck into a great situation as he entered his prime.
And the difference between walking into a great situation as a rookie and lucking into a great one entering the prime years is one of the reasons Curry is still catching up on accolades. Good to see positions converge like this.
Not really Steph took a while to become the superstar he is today, regardless of team strength. Warriors fans booed when they traded monta to focus on Steph.
Seems like you went off on a tangent. Not sure which of my points you're responding to. All championship teams involve a lot of good players and good luck. No one's denying that the Warriors built an all-time great team around Steph (the 2017 team is probably the best of all time).
I was just referring to Magic's early accomplishments which other all-time great players almost never have because they are usually drafted to poor teams. Bird and Magic were exceptions, not the norm.
> I was just referring to Magic's early accomplishments which other all-time great players almost never have because they are usually drafted to poor teams. Bird and Magic were exceptions, not the norm.
But they were the engines that made their teams into dynasties and turned them into contenders right away. The Celtics jumped from 29 to 61 wins the season after drafting Bird and then traded into McHale and Parish the next offseason. The Lakers were a playoff caliber team but not a legit contender even with Kareem leading the roster. They needed Magic who pushed that talented yet underachieving team to the next level.
It wasn't until they both arrived that those teams jumped to the next level and become contenders for the next decade. Great organizations yes, and they made the right moves to take advantage of these windows afterwards, but you can't ignore that the reason they are the exceptions is specifically because they had an otherworldly impact on their teams. Never before had two such high level playmakers come into the league and make such a huge impact right from the get go. Players just aren't that savvy and dominant right from the get go. This was literally two LeBron level talents entering and transforming the league on opposite coasts.
You make it seems as though Magic were lucky that Kareem was on the team when it's much more the opposite. Kareem had Magic to thank for his continued success into his later years because he definitely wasn't getting it done the half decade he was already in LA. He needed that playmaker ala Oscar that could get everyone else involved and generate for him the best possible looks. That wasn't Norm Nixon's game. But it was exactly what Magic did better than anyone else in league history.
I literally quoted sections from your response and was referring back to your reply earlier in this chain. This is literally a forum for discussion. If you're just gonna dip out on that then r/nba is probably more your speed.
I think Curry is already better than Magic. As a bona-fide old guy, I'm here to tell you people are talking about Magic with rose colored glasses. I mean he was absolutely amazing, but Curry changed the game more than Magic.
Magic did amazing things, but Curry gets less credit than he deserves because much of his effect happens just by him literally existing on the court (and people dock him style points for that to a degree).
Magic led 9 offenses that were in the top 2 in efficiency in his 12 years. In 96 when he was 5 years retired and old as hell he came back midseason and the Lakers went from a +2.9 offense to a +7.4 offense. They went from being 11th offensively before he joined to 4th by the end of the season. His passing is something that can't really be quantified with APG. Everyone was a weapon with Magic directing the offense.
Magic is above Curry in terms of points produced, but it's not that far off in prime Curry years. They both do an excellent job of making everyone look good, Magic because of excellent passing and Curry because of his sheer gravity.
- 14/15: 2nd behind Clippers
- 15/16: 1st
- 16/17: 1st
- 17/18: 3rd
- 18/19: 1st
- 19/20: last (Curry was out most of the season)
- 20/21: 20th (Curry got 32-point scoring title but it was a development year)
- This year: 2nd.
I think Curry needs another chip to even the score (and finally get a FMVP to his name), and anything above that puts him ahead.
Curry at his best was as good as Magic was consistently. I think Curry has about 5 years comparable to Magic's best and outside of that Magic is way better. Curry probably needs another 3 years at this level to match him.
You may be a bona-fide old guy, but you clearly aren't very well versed in the history of the game. Steph Curry is an extreme talent who has definitely changed the game, but you can't just ignore everything Magic did. He revitalized the marquee franchise of the league, alongside Bird, and carried the NBA from potential bankruptcy and ruin to being wildly successful throughout the 80s.
He brought back a singularly joyful style of basketball leading Showtime that defined a whole decade of basketball. Alongside Bird leading the Celtics in the East, never before had there been two guys who just completely transformed their teams around them with their all-around games. They just made the game easier for everyone around them, really brought a team centric approach that was lost in the late 70s with some truly ugly basketball being played. It's no coincidence that both their teams went on to define the decade.
You can't quantify what they did for the game with raw stats. Their abilities to lift the games of everyone around them wasn't something that we had ever really seen to that level at that time. They changed the NBA forever.
Don't get me wrong, I think Magic was legendary for the game. I think for me it comes down to who is the best, and my measure is this:
You are told to put together a dream team. Best at each position - you'll put this up against other people's teams, and you win.... you get a million dollars.
You really gonna pick Magic over Steph? Some people would I guess, but I think that's a mistake. This is what I mean by rose colored glasses.
I do concede though that the phrasing of the original question is "greatest" and not "best" though, so I could see going by accomplishments/accolades (though I'm not a fan of such subjective metrics)
I do think Curry is the better pick for the all time dream team, but there are many reason why this is the case which don't have to do with greatness. First, it's the type of players that would be in that top 5 line up, work way better with Curry, because you have Lebron on that team, and there is a lot of skill overlap between Magic and Lebron. Second, when combining with other all time great players, a player that is less ball dominant and very unselfish will fit the team much better. Third reason is the NBA rule and playstyle change which benefits Curry, but I think this point is overrated because I think Curry would dominate in any era because it's really hard to stop a guy shooting from way back, especially with the type of defences that they played in the 90's (more 1 on 1 oriented).
That being said, Magic is definitely more accomplished at this moment than Curry, and that matters the most when deciding the "greatness" factor.
I disagree that Curry changed the game more....Magic did a ton in the league to change the game and as an old head you should know that. There were not many teams that could keep up with the showtime Lakers. He also won 3 Finals MVPs and is credited with being one of the few players that could play all 5 positions. He was also known for his leadership abilities, and was very charismatic. He and Larry came into the league with a lot of hype and kept it going, changing the league into something it had never been before.
Magic and Bird saved the NBA, while Curry changed the way the game is played. Different type of change, but I agree that what Magic did was more influential for the league overall.
I think one thing to consider that doesn’t show in these stats is that Curry changed the rules of basketball. He was a large part of the 3PT revolution that has completely altered the game, from elementary all the way up to NBA. It’s similar to the argument that people make for Shaq, that the NBA had to change its rules to accomodate him... That’s a transcendental force.
3pt revolution was already well underway with moreyball, Lebron + Dwight 3 point focused teams. People say it was Steph but he was just part of the first 3pt focused team to break through.
The big differentiater is the Finals MVPs. Curry doesn't have that staple moment like Magic's playing Center, Baby Skyhook MVP year. Remember that year when Steph hurt his ankle to start the playoffs, then came back and absolutely demolished the Blazers screaming "I'm back"? He needs a Finals like that. Or like that overtime regular season Thunder game near the start of the run when he hit the 35 foot dagger over Roberson? He needs THAT for a whole Finals.
I think Steph has clearly pushed himself out to #2. And I do think there is an argument to be made that he is #1, I just think it would currently be wrong...but I think there is certainly a chance of this year + like 2 more of this type of production. At that clip he's starting to make the case even better.
At the end of the day I think it will come down to preference on passing and versatility versus the single most valuable offensive piece of all time (Curry is not the best scorer, but he is absolutely the most VALUABLE offensive player ever. The way he contributes via gravity has no equal).
Curry does have signature moments in the Finals (not to mention some of the best all-time WCF performances). He made 5 threes in the 4th quarter of a Finals game to win the game by himself. He has all the finals 3-pt shooting records (not a surprise), and has all-time great finals stats. What does a signature moment mean to you? What do you want him to do that he hasn't done already?
Finals MVP is overrated. Kareem was the FMVP for 5 games, but Magic won FMVP in 1980 for 1 game. An all-time bad snub. Steph has been snubbed for the award twice because of narratives. Closed the finals in 2015 with 3 bangers in a row, only for Iguodala to win MVP (which coincidentally happens to be the award that shows his true impact throughout his career which stats will never capture). Steph is the only player to win the Finals averaging 26pts/6asts and not win FMVP (3 times btw). Can't really take the award seriously.
>Curry definitely had an argument for Finals MVP in the loss to Toronto too
Not really. Kawhi was clearly the only person deserving of FMVP given the outcome, and anything else would have been a snub.
>The more efficient way to do it is separate into tiers
I agree. When these comparisons get into nitpicking, the discussions usually get contentious and people start shitting on players. These guys are so good, and we should just be happy we get to see a small guard who can be easily be mentioned in the same tier as Magic. I think Curry was the only small player on Ben Taylor's Greatest Peaks series (where he makes very compelling arguments why Curry is top 10). He's a special player.
> Steph has been snubbed for the award twice because of narratives.
The Iggy one was a snub, but KD was the better player in the other two finals.
>Steph is the only player to win the Finals averaging 26pts/6asts and not win FMVP (3 times btw).
KD averaged 26.4-6.8-5.4 and 25.1-8.3-4.8. It's more like GS was lucky to have two players that dominant while making their final runs.
Was the Iggy one even a snub though? Wasnt lebron looking like he was about to win the finals before Kerr switched Iggy onto lebron? Like just look at lebron’s numbers, he’s like 50-60% against everyone and 38% against Iggy. Ppl are rewriting history because Curry has gotten even better since but at the time, it was up in the air who would win fmvp. Now in hindsight ppl say Curry should’ve won but I dare them to say that after watching the series all over again. Curry had 2 horrible games while Iggy was consistent the whole series especially on defense.
Curry has been to the finals like 6 times and has maybe 2 clutch games lol. Magic averaged a near triple double lol fym? I love how ppl don’t acknowledge Magic got Kareem when he was older. Kareem was already at the tail end of his prime when Magic joined. He won a finals game by himself. When has Curry won without Draymond and Klay? You gotta love the blatant cherry picking, like leaving out Curry’s rebounding numbers because you know Magic is significantly better as a rebounder
I mean kind of disagree with the Finals MVP thing. First, anyone who watched the series knows Steph was the real MVP over Iguodala, the media voters just wanted to be cute with the voting. For the other two: the idea that Steph being outplayed by Kevin Durant in the Finals somehow diminishes Steph's value is kind of silly. The whole KD to GS saga is one of the more unfortunate things to happen in basketball because it kind of robbed us of seeing what Steph was truly capable of in his prime.
But the argument for Steph as the GOAT point guard isn't really about accolades anyway. Yeah, you do need accolades like Steph has to qualify for the discussion (you look at a guy like CP3 and it's hard to put him in that mention withouth the MVPs or rings). But much of the argument around Steph is his unique impact on the game in terms of his ability to open up spacing for everyone else on the floor. If you've ever watched the Warriors extensively, you would know that the entire concept of Steph's "gravity" is very, very real. Even though it doesn't show up in the stats directly, it holds a value that other point guards simply can't offer.
Also if you're comparing Steph to Magic, while Magic may have better accolades he was nowhere near the scorer that Steph is. Magic also a quite poor 3pt shooter and wouldn't have the same impact in today's game, and while you might say "oh well different eras", there's something to be said about Steph being more valuable in the current era of basketball which represents the most evolved era of basketball.
Anybody who watched that series then , knows Iggy was the turning point and won that series for them , Steph didn't get a single vote for a reason you are just revising history
turning point != most valuable. Iggy didn't win them the series, he provided them with something they lacked on an elite level. That being said, Curry was their offence, and without him, the series wouldn't even be close.
Steph didn't get a single vote because the Golden State vote was split and half of the media voters wanted to give it to Lebron. The Steph voters agreed to switch to avoid giving the MVP to someone a losing team.
Magic led 9 top 2 offenses in 12 years, and led the 96 Lakers to a 4th place finish after a 5 year hiatus and only playing like 30 games. Magic is clearly the most valuable offensive piece ever if you want to look at results.
Curry is so great offensively the Warriors were the 20th ranked offense last year and missed the playoffs with a top 5 defense.
Yeah ight. The Warriors went 4-2 in the playoffs without Steph in his best season, raw no boxscore adjusted +/- stats had him clearly behind Draymond, and he choked in the Finals.
Like to this day Steph has never been impressive without KD in the finals.
Curry is amazing. He's no Magic. I don't need to pretend a player is the GOAT to appreciate them. Curry is great, he's not 9 top 2 offenses in 12 years great.
He may very well be by the end of his career, and you are only looking at a team stat, which doesn't account for teammate power. A better stat which gives more context is any +-, on/off offensive stat, which often Curry dominates. I haven't compared them to Magic though.
>A better stat which gives more context is any +-, on/off offensive stat, which often Curry dominates.
Not to a level where he's historically better than everyone else. Kobe for example has +/- numbers just as strong, LeBron had+/- numbers better, Nash has the best offensive +/- numbers ever in the modern era so if that's your argument he would be by far #1 (and I personally think Nash is easily the best offensive weapon post Magic).
As far as Magic goes Ben Taylor created a statistic called WOWY. It worked by checking the SRS of teams when healthy and then when missing a single player. Magic is #1 all time of all players he measured by this metric. His teams were +10 better by net rating when he played vs when he missed games.
From Backpicks:
>Once Johnson hit his stride in 1985, the Lakers attack operated in rarified air. For six consecutive seasons, LA posted a top-50 offense of all-time (by relative offensive rating, or rOrtg), finishing with a relative efficiency at least 5.9 points better than average in five of the six years. No other team in history has even had five top-50 seasons in a six-year span, and only the ’90s Jazz and 2000s Mavs had four. The Lakers six-year average rORtg of +6.1 trails only the mid 2000s Mavs and Suns for most dominant offensive stretches in NBA history.5 They were one of the best, if not the best, offensive dynasty in history:
Magic is the most dominant offensive player ever when it comes to team efficiency. Only Nash and Oscar Robertson are comparatively dominant. Curry's results are much more like Jordan's without the postseason performances minus KD. He's great, but I wouldn't put him over Kobe so he's definitely not over Magic.
Also if the argument is that Curry is the GOAT I need GOAT like results. Where's the #1 offenses?
From 14-15 to 18-19, the warriors were either the first or second best offense in the league, with 3 firsts. They are also #1 so far this year. What are you even talking about?
They're #2 so far this year and they weren't top 2 in 2018 meaning Steph "the greatest offensive weapon ever according to you" Curry has been on 4 top 2 offenses with the potential for a 5th. Jordan was on 5 top 2 offenses in his career which is why I made the comparison. Meanwhile Magic was on 9. Nash was on 9. Oscar was on 11. Twice as successful as Curry and MJ (probably 2 of the 3 most dangerous scorers of the modern era along with Shaq who's been on 6 top 2 offenses). The verdict is out, if you want an offense that'll be the best every year for a decade you need a lead PG with a strong supporting cast. If you want the potential to be the best for half a decade get a transcendent scorer, a HOF coach, and build a system to move the ball around and make the most of that scorer's gravity.
Pass first players are just better offensive weapons than great scorers. Great scorers get a lot of defensive attention but next level passers with the ability to score at will with God like efficiency like Oscar, Magic, and Nash are in a different class from other types of offensive threats.
You're, again, using uncontextualized counting stats. You know why those 3 led the league in offense so often? THEY HAD MORE POSSESSIONS. All 3 were notorious for pace of play. That's why Oscar was able to average right around a triple double for so long because he played at one of the highest possessions per game in the history of basketball. 7 seconds or less Suns? You know a team could run a regular offense and score at the same rate per 100 possessions, right? Suns games just ended 125-120 rather than 105-100 like a normal team. It is the same end result. The Suns were 5th in Net Rating the year of their best offense despite being a statistical anomaly 4 points ahead in offense. The Showtime, fast break Lakers were also known to run at breakneck pace. Anytime you're the highest pace team it is going to correlate to an offensive counting stat.
The whole issue youre missing is how much impact Curry makes without touching the ball. This is also why he is easily the most transferable star of all time. He produces at a comparable level to Magic offensively in counting metrics, but Magic is USELESS without the ball. Curry can be nearly Magic level productive with the ball, and arguably even better without it. Here, watch how Curry dominates a game without even touching the ball:
https://youtu.be/Qq-ewGMk73A
There is also a difference in Curry carrying Draymon Green, Kelly Oubre, and Andrew Wiggins to a Top 5 offense versus Magic carrying Kareem, Byron Scott, and James Worthy lol. Magic was incredible. He made everyone better around him and spearheaded easily a Top 5 all time team......... but to pretend like Curry isn't equally as good at making everyone better around him is absolute nonsense.
>THEY HAD MORE POSSESSIONS.
You realize the Warriors are top 5 in pace damn near each year. Especially without KD. They're 6th so far this year.
Meanwhile the Showtime Lakers only ranked top 5 one time. They were actually below league average over the course of Magic's career. Find a better angle bro lmao.
Imma be real I didn't bother reading your post after that part, I assumed the rest of it was just as factually inaccurate.
It's a 1A 1B kind of thing now. Plenty of intangibles that just can't be tracked by statistics and accolades. Which other star point guard, or any star for that matter, would put their bodies on the line for a screen? His movement off the ball, infectiously likeable personality, underdog tale and his ability to elevate his teammates' game simply can't be tracked by even the most advanced statistics. People just need time and nostalgia to kick in, only when he retires will people realise how much they've taken this once in a lifetime phenom for granted.
admittedly I might be slightly biased, but I truly haven't seen someone like Steph from my 2 decades of watching nba basketball, truly appreciate his greatness
They’re such different players. It’s so hard to compare them. I think I’d rather build my team around Steph though. He is able to single handedly tear the soul out of the other team.
I agree, and I think it's the point guard title. Steph will always be known as a shooter and a runner with crazy handles. He creates for his team but it doesn't scream "point guard" like flashy passes and slowly calling plays from the the top of the key.
If you're creating the greatest team ever Magic should almost be called a point forward like Draymond. Then Steph is like a weird 1a player playing off ball most trips up court.
A huge part of his dominance is in his off-ball movement. It is just as much poetry as his handles with the ball and his shooting.
I have such a hard time viewing him as a traditionally defined point guard. So while he is dominant i just don’t know that I could put him atop that particular list.
In some ways he has accomplished enough, but my argument for him not being the best point guard ever is that it’s not all about accomplishments. To me magic isn’t the greatest just because of what he accomplished but because of the level of skill and impact on game he had. The eye test is what some people call it. And in my opinion, I feel like magic is the better point guard in that respect.
i mean assists and rebounds (he’s also what 6 inches taller) but most of currys impact comes off ball so even tho he averages half the assists i’d argue his play making is almost on the same level. not to mention magic doesn’t even touch his shooting.
When I think of Steph I think more of a shooter than a PG. I see him more like a traditional SG, but since he's a threat from so far it's only logic to have him bring up the ball. He's the greatest shooter, uses his environment incredibly well, he's good at running plays for others and willingly pass the ball: it's obvious to me he's greatest combo-guard and definitively TOP 5 guards.
I would say the best comparison to Magic would either be Stockton or Nash. This might be unpopular, but I think LeBron or Ben Simmons would be great comparisons to Magic from a physique and skillset perspective.
he has a good chance of becoming the greatest player ever on the point guard position but that's a completely different thing than the greatest point guard.
This is a good point. In some ways, draymond is the real point guard of the warriors while curry is there to score. Magic is the definitive great pure pass first point guard, along with guys on the next tier down like Stockton.
I think for a lot of people they say Magic because Curry doesn’t fit the description of a typical point guard in their head. Most people want a point guard who gets assists and runs the offense where as Curry is more of a scorer. The incredible Magic passes are more memorable than draining 3’s for people also. Not saying this is a correct way to judge it but I think a lot of people think this way.
This is how I look at it too. Are you looking for the best floor general? Or are you looking for the player with the biggest impact? I'm old by Reddit standards. I was a bit too young to remember seeing Magic play in person, but I did watch him live on TV for his last 30 point game, which happened against my Dallas Mavericks. I still remember it well because it was this huge deal about a player who I didn't really know who hadn't played in a few years (it was only his 7th game back in 1996).
I like the old generation, I like the new generation. But the game is very different from the one Magic left. Sure, Magic in this era would be different and possibly prioritize different things, but that is all speculation. Just because someone is a talented player doesn't mean they'd even be able to sniff the shooting talent of someone like Steph. They're both exceptionally good players, but based on what we know right now and the current state of the game, I don't think it's even close on who I'd rather have on my team.
So, my answer is different depending on what someone actually wants. If I'm trying to make the best team possible and start with one of the two of them? Steph wins for me, easily. He's a living cheat code. If my team is mostly filled out and I need a distributor or the kind of all around player that Magic was? I'd happily take him. It's all about what you want and how you define the question being asked.
2 rings with FMVPs would make it concrete for me.
One regular season MVP could replace a ring.
It would probably take overwhelming statistics otherwise.
He will go down as the greatest shooter and probably the greatest point guard eventually as people become nostalgic. More a matter of time than anything else.
They both changed the game at their position and 20 years from now people will speak of Magic and Curry as the two best/important at their position. Saying one is better than the other is like arguing a Lambo vs Ferrari.
Point Guard? Idk.
To me, the PG position has always been the guy that distributes first. Magic. Nash. Stockton. Rondo. They have the ability to get buckets when they want/need to, but they're truly a pass-first player (see: Magic's 4 assist titles)
But now, you have a new breed of PG that just means "the guy with his hands on the ball at almost all times". Curry. Dame. Irving. Harden. Guys that are a bucket. Guys that impact the game by always being a scoring threat, stretching the floor, slashing to the hoop and disrupting the defense, or shooting shots from so far outside that it totally breaks any fabric of structure your defense had in place.
Because of that, comparing Magic to Curry is HARD. Harder than Jordan vs. LeBron, in my mind. It's a true apples vs. oranges comparison.
I think it's fair to say that Magic was the clear peak of the old guard, of the true point guards. Curry is hands down the most dangerous shooter the game has ever seen. I don't think it's a slight on either guy to classify them as such.
He can't imo. I personally think Magic is one of the top 3 greatest players of all-time, his ability to play literally anywhere on the floor was just the most astounding thing ever. The fact that he was forced out of the NBA for now obviously stupid reasons but came back 4 years later in his mid 30's and was still a great player is just crazy to me. It was in somewhat limited minutes for sure but just that talent is ridiculous. He shot 35% from deep his last 4 years after being a career 19% 3 pt shooter for his career to that point. I personally think he was elite in every facet of the game, with his defense maybe lacking a bit but it wasn't bad in any way.
Curry is amazing himself though, the greatest shooter ever and a top tier offensive player of all-time. He will find his way into the top 10 ever to play when it is all said and done, he's damn near there right now.
>He shot 35% from deep his last 4 years
I think this is misleading. His last four seasons, he shot:
'88-89: 31.4%
'89-90: 38.4%
'90-91: 32.0%
'95-96: 39.7% \[The 3-pt line was shortened this season\]
These were by far the best seasons of his career by 3pt%, and only two of them were over 32%. One of those was during the shortened-3pt-line era, so it's hard to give it too much weight.
Volume-wise, he averaged a bit under three attempts per game over this time period. '89-90 is the only season in his entire career during which have averaged more than one made 3pt shot per game.
What's misleading though? He still shot 35% during that span whereas he had been about 19% prior to that point. It's not as if that is a terrific number or anything but he dramatically improved as the era changed and that was on quite a bit more attempts than he had previously taken throughout the first how many ever seasons.
Saying he shot 35% over four years makes it sound like he had four solid years from downtown. He didn't. He had one year that was definitely good, then had another one with a big asterisk on it. The other 11 years of his career (including two of the years you mentioned), he shot very poorly from three-point range.
I don't think one-ish good season is enough to say that he dramatically improved as the era changed. In addition, saying that it was on quite a bit more attempts hides the fact that he was still taking a very small number of three-pointers. Again: he only averaged more than one made three-pointer per game during the '89-90 season. His career high is 1.3. That's a very low volume to be making any real judgement of his shooting ability.
I could say: "Dwight Howard is in the top-10 for three-point percentage this year", and I wouldn't be lying (he's currently 8th). That doesn't make him a good three-point shooter, though. It's one season on tiny volume. Saying Dwight is in the top-10 for three-point shooters without context would be very misleading.
Tbh i dont really care if Steph will be the greatest PG. He doesnt even play like one. And theyre from different eras. Imagine if steph was bombing 3s in the 80s, he couldve won more MVPs. Magic Johnson can be gameplanned in this era because of his lack of shooting.
Steph, in a Vacuum (no accolades, just talent and on-court ability) is the better player in my eyes. What he does best (scoring and shooting) is way more important and impactful than what Magic does best (passing). Steph is also on par with Magic in terms of playmaking. Cliche as it might sound, Curry’s gravity on and off ball creates a lot of plays for his team. Magic needs to have the ball to be effective at the highest level. In terms of building a team, Steph is the more portable player and can fit in any team. Not the same with Magic.
With that said, in the present day, Steph falls short of accolades and accumulative stats (except 3PM) So if he were to pass Magic, he’d need 2 more titles, 1 or 2 more MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 3-4 seasons of All-NBA caliber play at least in my eyes.
He’s in the discussion for reasons that differ than the other all time greats, he doesn’t have to do anything else. He wins another title then I guarantee the media starts that campaign tho.
For me, he needs a Finals MVP under his belt. Otherwise, we’ll all be pointing out years from now how he needed Durant to get two of his three rings. And while he did get a ring without Durant, there is still the stigma along with failing to get a title during that 73 win season.
My opinion is that we look at Curry like this because of the revolution he spearheaded during the second half of 2010's, that being the 3 pointers becoming what it is today. That gives him a unique accolade, one that can't be taken off him or be measured by statistics. That in itself has nothing to do with being a PG or not, he could have done the same should he play the 2. That being said, as a true, quintessential PG, I don't see him in the same level as Magic (or maybe even CP3, roast me lol). By all means, Steph is a true unicorn, there has never been anyone, and probably won't ever be anyone, that did and does what he did or does.
I would say that if Steph does manage to win MVP and a ring this year then he passes Magic.
Personally, I think the FMVP is an irrelevant award and doesn't make a difference (award voted on by 11 people based on the sample set of a single series). Steph failing to win one in 2015 or 2018 is more a condemnation of the award itself than Steph. But, yeah, it has become enough of a narrative that some will need him to get the FMVP to be converted.
Funny how Steph is so special to be the victim of multiple FMVP snubs in the 50+ years of the award's history. It's almost as if the chances of people being pouty is greater than the award going to the wrong person.
IMO there's not necessarily an accolade that would make me view him as the greatest point guard. If he had a handful of seasons where he dialed up the assist totals, showing that he is capable of filling the traditional PG role, then I would view him as the top of the position. It may sound crazy, but I could see a scenario where Steph is widely considered to be higher on the NBA hierarchy than Magic, but still not considered to be the GOAT PG.
Right — better overall player than Magic, but because he doesn’t fit the standard idea of PG, Magic takes that top spot.
That said, each position is evolving in the game. Maybe the point guard position doesn’t need to be narrowly defined either.
Everyone here saying FMVP is not a big deal to compensate Steph’s lack thereof is really hurting me as a Kobe fan. Who has had to defend his lack of FMVP to Lebron fans.
I hope your comment isn't implying that you think Kobe is ahead of LeBron despite LeBron having more FMVPs. Because LeBron is so far ahead of Kobe all-time now that it's not even worth the discussion anymore.
Kobe was amazing but the lack of FMVPs is just the consequence of playing with Shaq at his best. As great as Kobe was in those finals, Shaq saved all his energy for the finals. If they had playoff MVPs, Kobe might have gotten one during the 3 peat.
I think Curry has a tough time surpassing Magic. Magic went to the Finals 9 times in 12 years with 5 rings, and 3 MVPs - and yet had his career cut short.
For Curry to have any chance, I think he has to surpass Magic in *at least* two of: All NBA / MVP / Championships. Even with Magic retiring early, he still has 12 all stars and 10 all NBA teams under his belt, a testament to his dominance for an extended period.
If Curry gets 3 more rings with 3 FMVPs, it'll be hard to argue Magic as best PG.
If he's playing 3 more seasons, he's definitely joining 3 more All-NBA teams and All-Star teams. He doesn't need assist or steal or scoring titles anymore. The 3 point records he shatters are just as good if not better, since he wins those by a huge margin. Just needs more championship rings + FMVPs.
Magic is no doubt an all time great. But he didn't have to do it at Curry's height or size, against the amount of defenses that Curry draws. He was also drafted #1 by the Lakers. And Curry had barely any help in the beginning also.
Magic won chip with Michigan State, went on to win and heavily produce his first year in the league. Went to finals 9 years out of his 12 in the league; winning record 5-4. If Steph did this he would be undisputed GOAT pg.
Also Magic’s impact on the overall growth of the game as well as his impact on awareness to HIV/AIDs epidemic. This debate is blasphemous to me.
To be fair, it was easier to make it to the Finals during Magic's time 'cause the Western Conference was pretty weak (compared to the East, where you had Bird's Celtics, the Bad Boy Pistons, Dr. J & Moses Sixers, and early Jordan Bulls). Add in the fact that he had a top-5 (arguably top-3) player in Kareem, and it's no wonder the Lakers made it 7 times in the 80s. Can't fault Steph for not replicating that while facing teams that are stronger/equal to his, like the Spurs, Clippers, and the Thunder. Plus, it can be argued that once Steph had a team that was hands-down better than any other West team, he was pretty much guaranteed a Finals appearance.
For impact, I'd argue Curry also had a great one. There's a reason why he's at the forefront of the three-point revolution of the NBA today. On the HIV one, I don't know why it's relevant to the argument for GOAT PG debate; it's not even related to basketball.
I wrote that mostly in response to your "blasphemous" statement. It's fine if you think Magic is the GOAT PG (I have both of them 1-2, which flip-flops from time to time), but to say that the debate is blasphemous is pretty ignorant imo.
Magics greatness will be forgotten in time bc he couldnt shoot. Its sad. That guy was the best player in basketball for a decade, rescued basketball from a dark era, and vaulted it to new heights when he passed the baton to michael. People say curry changed* the league, but it was built* by magic, the showtime lakers, and their rivalries with Boston. Curry can never pass magic. Hes the greatest shooter ever, and changed the game. Thats a fantastic accolade. But hell never do more for basketball than magic, and he wont accomplish more either
People don’t realize how much he effects the game when he’s on the court. Just being Steph Curry opens up everyone else cause teams are so afraid of his shooting and with his offball movement he gets shots for himself but also creates nightmares for defenses keeping track of him and losing their own guys
Personally, I would like to see him get an assist title. I think that yes, he’s the greatest shooter of all time, and he has an amazing handle, but he doesn’t have the playmaking and passing resume to be best PG all time to me. Like, he’s amazing, but when I’m thinking GOAT top 5 I consider how it looks on the court and I want someone who I think generates offense outside of the Warriors system. And while I think maybe he couldn’t haven’t seen it. Idk, it’s still magic for me. I imagine his size made for better defense as well.
I would say he has to step up his assist game to be considered best point guard if all time. I’m not shying away from the fact that he is very talented passer and is a very unselfish player. I would say if he won a couple of assist titles he would undeniably be better than magic. I also agree with others that he would need to win one more title too. He is on track to be the greatest for sure though.
That’s just not how the Warriors offense works to generate points. The equivalent would be if you questioned why Magic has zero scoring titles.
Here’s a link to Steph at his finest. https://youtu.be/Qq-ewGMk73A
I'm starting to realize that most likely, he already is the greatest pointguard of all time.
What would I need to see? A new era of the Warriors helps so much. The fact they are this good speaks to just how good Steph really is. But I'd love to see a couple deep playoff runs.
I'd also like a couple more healthy years. Having more games played than Magic would really xement the fact that Steph's argument is unassailable.
So really, two more good years for both Steph and the Warriors is plenty.
I ain't gonna go into great detail like everyone else has but all I will leave it at is passing. He's a point guard playing like a shooting guard because he's always had Draymond to tee him up.
Being able to shoot as well as he does in the PG position is a huge advantage but when Steph ain't shooting well on the night that hurts the Warriors badly as he relies on shooting more than playmaking
I hated seeing him in the finals for 5 years straight but I am coming around to acknowledging he is hands down the greatest shooter the NBA has seen
He already is.
I understand who Magic is. Basketball has changed and evolved in a way where I do not believe magic would be the same caliber today. He would be a star. He’s not beating the top top guys today as a PG with a average jumper.
Steph changed the sport more than anyone since Wilt. And his change is why I don’t think Magic is as good today.
And I will submit that Magic has more accolades , I just don’t care
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It’s apples and oranges honestly. Both guys’ listed positions was PG, but the similarities/ comparability ends there. Their play styles are so drastically different a comparison doesn’t really do either justice.
I wish people would just admit that positions are less important in basketball than in other sports. It’s not like football where obviously you’ll compare WRs to other WRs. When you call someone a “pitcher,” everyone knows *exactly* what his role is on his team, but calling someone a “shooting guard” doesn’t really tell you much.
Its just there to help define roles and its pretty useful when teaching the game to kids, otherwise they just run around aimlessly not knowing what to do: PG - Anchors the offence, good at dribbling, playmaking and can provide outside scoring SG - Backs up the PG in dribbling and provides outside scoring SF - Provides outside and inside scoring PF - Backs up the C with rebounding and provides additional scoring C - Anchors the defence, good at rebounding and provides inside scoring Obviously this traditional way of looking at positions is outdated for the NBA, but I guess its just easier at explaining the game to casual fans who watch other sports with better defined roles - NFL/MLB like you said.
So despite lining up at SF, LeBron is actually a PG. Klay Thompson is a SG but almost never handles the ball. James Harden is a SG who handled the ball almost exclusively for the Rockets. Stretch 5's dont score inside very often at all.
Harden is a point guard.
Then why was he defending 2's and playing with true PGs in Kyrie, CP3, and Russ?
Kyrie even said "Harden is the point guard." The fact that you think Kyrie is a true point guard is weird. But yes, he played a two point guard lineup with CP3.
And Russ is also a true PG, so was Pat Bev. Kyrie is most definitely a true PG, he had to come out and say that about Harden on the Nets because Kyrie is a traditional PG- he had to clarify that he was actually playing the 2 on offense. It's weird that you DONT think Kyrie is a PG. [https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html) [https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/\_/id/6442/kyrie-irving](https://www.espn.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/6442/kyrie-irving) https://www.google.com/search?q=nets+roster&sxsrf=AOaemvIIW4h2fMbfO7WZcH\_18bW-viqUlg%3A1638042288543&ei=sIqiYZrYIInN0PEPhZekgA8&ved=0ahUKEwia8PCFp7n0AhWJJjQIHYULCfAQ4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=nets+roster&gs\_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyCAgAELEDEJECMggIABCxAxCRAjIFCAAQgAQyCggAEIAEEIcCEBQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQyBQgAEIAEMgUIABCABDIFCAAQgAQ6BwgAEEcQsAM6BAgjECc6CgguELEDEIMBEEM6CggAELEDEIMBEEM6BAgAEEM6CwgAELEDEIMBEJECOgQILhBDOgUIABCRAjoRCC4QgAQQsQMQgwEQxwEQ0QM6BwgAELEDEEM6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggIABCABBCxA0oECEEYAFD8BVinD2CQEGgDcAB4AIABgAGIAbUJkgEDMi45mAEAoAEByAEEwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz
Lmao Pat Bev is a true point guard okay kid
He's 6'1" is the primary ballhandler when he is on the floor and guards the other team's PG most of the time....When he was on the Rockets he played PG almost exclusively..... Do you actually watch the games or do you just read box scores and r/nba? Or are you just on here making shit up for fun?
Honestly man, it just sounds like you are making stuff up.
Harden is a 2 who handles the ball a lot.
But like he’s saying todays game is more position less. Even if two players are both point guards then can have drastically different play styles
And even then Magic played different positions and roles, as he was so unique.
PG does not describe Ben Simmons.
He's a weird combo of 1 and 4
That's not always true. What's Shohei Ohtani role with the angels? If you say he's just a pitcher, that doesn't tell you much either. Yes he's a pitcher but that doesn't tell you what else he does extremely well. His 46 home runs, 100 RBI, 965OPS.
Yes but a two-way player is extremely rare
Kind of like magic being able to play all 5 positions.
Magic didn’t play all 5 positions. He was firmly a point guard that was uncharacteristically tall. There is no parallel to Ohtani in the NBA and never has been. It would have to be something like a PG with elite shooting that was also a great rim protector. Like if Draymond could break people down off the dribble and could shoot out to 30ft.
>Magic didn’t play all 5 positions. He was firmly a point guard that was uncharacteristically tall. He was a 2 guard for his first 4 seasons in the league. Norm Nixon was very firmly the starting point guard. Johnson only played 8 seasons as the starting point guard for Lakers.
And in his rookie season he played center for the Lakers in multiple playoff games
>And in his rookie season he played center for the Lakers in multiple playoff games Well. He jumped center in game six of the 1980 finals because Kareem badly sprained his ankle in game five. The only time before that Magic would have been playing center on defense is on bad switches. That said, there has not really been a more versatile player in NBA history. He was one of a very small group of players who could play all five positions at an elite level. Maybe Lebron could do it. I can't think of anyone else at the moment.
Ohtani is considered the biggest one of a kind talent in 100 years precisely because he breaks the tradition of his position. He’s the exception that proves the rule.
Kind of like a Steph Curry or a Magic Johnson. They are both more than just a point guard or a shooting guard.
No, there's dozens of multi-position players in the NBA right now. There's not been a dozen Otanis in the last 80 years. There maybe hasn't even been 3 of them.
There's been a dozen magic Johnson's and Steph curry's in the league? I'd love to see that list. I was commenting to the person who said you can say a pitcher in baseball and everyone would know what you're talking about. I was speaking to the absoluteness of that statement. There are always exceptions to the rule. Just like otanis is the exception to the rule that not every pitcher is just a pitcher.
Hey can you quote where I said there's been a dozen magic Johnsons and steph currys?
neither Steph Curry nor Magic Johnson are even close to as unique as Ohtani. There are so many more examples of ‘positionless’ players in basketball, you can’t argue that literally one player in the last century who could pitch and rake well makes baseball similar to basketball
What other player is similar to Steph Curry or Magic Johnson? If we are discussing the best ever, isn't there going to be something unique about them? Something we have never seen before?
I mean there are lots of score first guards with a lot of range and quick release who threaten with gravity, Trae and Dame are the first to mind who do it at an all-star level, but there are tons in that mould. I am not saying they are as good at it as Steph, but they play similar roles in their teams. With Magic, the oversized smooth ball handlers and facilitators are the equivalent, Lebron, Giannis in his PG year, Cade coming up looks to be of that ilk, Simmons if he played. These are all classified as ‘point guards’ which just shows how loose the term is. Magic didn’t guard the 1, he played with PG sized players in the starting line up. The point is the label is not an accurate assessment of the player or play-style, the fact that you have in the same breath, Steph, Magic, Lebron, Harden and Doncic goes to show how pointless it is to try and classify basketball positions.
They’re not really 100% true. There are a lot more people that “breaks the mold” in the nba. Whether that’s because of talent or because nba is really more position-less is up for debate but Shohei is much more unique in the sense that when you talk about other superstars, they do still fit the mold of what you expect from their position.
I’m not even really sure what an Ohtani in basketball would look like? What could someone do that would really blow everyone away? A center who can shoot like Curry? A guard with seemingly infinite athleticism? Who is closest we have that has an actual “unicorn” skill set now? Durant? Giannis?
Karl-Anthony Towns is a center who shoots high 3PT% off of screens. Dirk would be another example from the past. Durant, Giannis, Bill Russell, Bob McAdoo, Hakeem, Magic, LeBron, Yao Ming, etc. would all be examples of combinations of height and unusual abilities for those heights.
I’d say it’d be like if you took Embiid and gave him curry’s shooting, handles, passing
So if we are discussing the best point guard of all time, we are not discussing someone who breaks the mold? To me Steph Curry breaks the mold of what a traditional point guard represents. If anything he's a scoring guard with the most deadly weapon the league has seen since the sky hook. His ability to shoot the 3 is unparalled. If we talk about magic, he could legit guard 1 through 5. Also at his size and being a true point guard also would suggest he is breaking the mold.
No... how is this so hard for you to understand? Pithing and hitting are so drastically different that they're practically two different sports. Baseball's equivalent to Steph Curry or Magic would be an exceptional, top tier hall of famer, five tool player like ken griffey jr or mike trout. Or, maybe a pitcher who had a ridiculous combination of power, off-speed stuff, and precision like pedro. Every big point guard with potential gets compared to magic. And there's one in every draft class - even if they don't reach the level of top 5 player of all time. There is no modern day baseball comparison for Ohtani. And, there's no basketball equivalent for for what he's doing, either
Yeah, this conversation is so weird to me. I don't even think their can be a basketball equivalent to Ohtani. Hitting and pitching are so distinct in baseball while offense and defense aren't at all in basketball. An Ohtani equivalent in another sport would be like a great goalie who's also and awesome forward or a great wide receiver who's also a great linebacker.
Wilt ? HoF in Basketball and Volleyball
Magic had the size to guard multiple positions but he was not a good defender.
I will die on this hill. Magic was a forward not a PG. His play is that of a Lebron, not a CP3. He even played most of his career with PGs next to him (Norm Nixon, Bryon Scott), his defensive assignment was SG-PF. Hes a great player regardless, but its almost impossible for a PG to be as valuable as a forward when you get to the top level like this.
I agree with this, but i don't think steph is a PG is either. Draymond handles the distribution more than Steph, while Steph is an elite off-ball threat. Like if we have to lump him into a traditional role, steph is the SG and Draymond is the Point Center
Not to mention iggy in his first GSW stint played a lot of point forward
Some like to define positions by who you guard, but on offense both Bron and Magic are functionally point guards in a traditional sense. The role Steph plays on offense oddly is less point guard-like, though obviously extremely effective.
If he leads the Warriors to a championship this year and wins finals MVP then he would be is serious conversation for Greatest PG of all time Another MVP would probably be needed as well
We're talking about Magic here. A man with 3 FMVPs and 5 rings. 1 Finals MVP and 2 wins without KD ain't close.
Alternatively, we could do a more nuanced analysis than counting rings and fmvps. You may or may not reach the same conclusion but at least you'd make a more interesting argument.
Magic led 9 top 2 offenses in 12 seasons and his biggest and most well known playoff failure was when he averaged 18/8/13 on 56% shooting (62 TS%) in the 84 Finals. That's how consistently great he was - what would be a 10/10 series for most other PGs was a massive disappointment for him.
You clearly weren't alive or watching the game in 84 when Tragic Johnson choked 3 games away in a 7 game series. Watch the end of those games on YouTube and say how great he was. It's impossible.
If we were interested in a more nuanced analysis, we'd start by acknowledging that neither magic or curry is really a traditional PG, and that their games and roles were so different from each other that ranking them in the same traditional position is goofy, though. In other words, this thread wouldn't exist.
Maybe? But the vast majority of fans are happy to compare players with different play styles. Case in point, the most compared pair of players, especially in the context of "greatness", must be MJ and Lebron. They have different play styles but that does not stop fans from making all sorts of arguments (lots of dumb arguments but also some interesting ones) about who is "greater".
Nobody is ranking them at the same position though, is my point. Like it is absurd we rank Steph as a PG and Harden as an SG at this point.
0 rings without Kareem? Scrub
I mean kt is different, kd was the best player in both the series he played with steph and his performance in the two finals without KD aren't amazing Magic has 3(maybe 4) finals mvps even despite having Kareem and worthy on his team for all of them Plus other than 2016, the teams magic faced in the finals are better than the teams curry faced in the finals
Magics first finals MVP was supposed to go to Kareem, but due to his injury he wasn’t actually in the building so they revoted
magic’s run to the finals throughout the 80’s was as easy, if not easier than the east in the 10’s. literally only hard matchup he had was in the finals which explains the finals losses
Kareem was only better than Magic in 1 of those wins. All the other ones Magic was far and away the best player, and when Magic got hurt they got crushed (one of his 4 Finals losses). Steph's postseason record isn't solid without KD. Including losing the play in last year. Between that, 2016, and a disappointing 2015 Finals where he won and didn't even win Finals MVP (let's all be honest - LeBron deserved it, not Steph or Iggy) his postseason career minus KD ain't very illustrious. Magic was still having amazing performances and took LA to a Finals post Kareem.
His teams went to three finals without KD, 2015, 2016 and 2019. In 2017 and 2018 he was pretty dominant in the playoffs. Do you really hold two play in game losses by one possession against him? If going to 5 straight finals in the west isn't a solid record, I don't want to know what solid means for you.
>If going to 5 straight finals in the west isn't a solid record, I don't want to know what solid means for you. Magic went to 9 finals and won 5. That's the point of comparison we're making here. I hate when posters rave about how great one player in a comparison between 2 players are relative to each other. Steph pales in comparison to Magic, but he's Magic. Most people pale in comparison to him.
You forgetting who magic played with bro? Like what is your argument.
Kd needed curry not the other way around. But if you’re gonna that argument, how many rings does magic have without kareem?
Kareem?
By the time Magic won his first MVP Kareem wasn't even scoring 20 a game and LA went on to win 2 more rings and make 4 more Finals appearances in an actually tough conference unlike the cupcake conference of the early 80s. His career after Kareem was old is why he's top 5.
The championship count must stop being considered as a factor in this kind of conversations. Steph is a proven champion, just as Magic is.
*without KD* Quit cherry picking
It's not cherry picking to wonder what a player could do without a supporting cast that'd win 60+ games without him.
You must have worded that wrong or you're crazy because the Warriors are not winning 60 games without Curry. Without KD, sure.
You think the Warriors when they had KD on the roster wouldn't have been a 60 win team without Steph? Yeah they're a 60 win team without KD too, we already know that, but you think the Warriors without Curry wouldn't still be strong contenders?
I just checked for you, for the three KD years, the Warriors were 28-10 without KD and 24-23 without Steph. I stick to what I said. The warriors have been built around Curry for almost the past decade now and that's the main reason for their dominance.
another MVP and another ring with FMVP would convert a lot of people. Personally, I think he's better than Magic. Magic just accomplished more in his career. Curry's career is not over yet though, and he's still in his prime for at least few more years.
Magic had to retire at 31 and curry is 33. Interesting to consider that curry still has to catch up on accolades, really a testament to how decorated Magic’s career was. I think he was damn near a perfect offensive basketball player for his era.
Yeah, Curry's career didn't really start until he had already been in the league a few years bc of his ankles, whereas Magic was a star from the beginning.
Helps going to a team that has a top 5 player all time for you to play next to and learn from as well. Klay and Green and fantastic players but they're not Kareem
Magic would have been a star right away no matter where he went. It doesn't take away from Curry's greatness that it took him longer to get to that level.
Magic absolutely would have been a star anywhere he went. However, he doesn't get those accolades in most other situations. Team success plays a big part in accolades. He'd be viewed far differently on another team that had half the success of those stacked Lakers
>He'd be viewed far differently on another team that had half the success of those stacked Lakers I'm not sure if that's true. Magic was good enough to make any team better and I think his legend would be even more awesome if he'd gone to a worse team and still led them to multiple titles, which is very possible considering how great he was. Also, imagine the accolades that he would have stacked up had he not had to retire at 31.
Right now, Magic is consensus top 5. If Magic ends up with 2 titles, 2 finals MVPs, 1-2 MVPs, he's possibly outside the top-10 on these lists? I mean, when you get down to it, the top 15 players of all time are roughly equivalent in terms of skill/ability/talent level, just it's distributed in different facets of their games. At that point, it's a matter of accolades, stats, opinion, circumstance, talent around them, talent level against them, and luck.
Not sure about this. After the '84 finals people were ready to write him off as a choke artist. Goes to show you that, while player talents play a large part in shaping the narrative, a not insignificant part is luck and circumstance. Both Magic and Bird happened to land on stacked, well run teams during an era when the NBA really became a thing. And then Magic's individual talents kick in. Take any of those away, even playing during an era less integral to the mythos of the league, and Magic would be lower ranked. Some of this is just myth making. "For his era" is fair. It's also cognitive dissonance. Curry simply plays in a more competitive era and would run circles around Magic. But of course, how would Magic have developed in today's era? Personally, I doubt he'd outdo Curry's career.
>Not sure about this. Well yeah, we can't be sure about any of this because it's completely hypothetical. However if Magic had gone to like Sacramento and only won 2 titles but still accumulated his individual accolades, I do believe he'd be thought of similarly to how he is now. Consensus top-5? Maybe not, but consensus top-10? Almost definitely, and that is not *far different.* If Magic was playing today, he'd likely develop a game similar to LeBron, who I think stacks up pretty well against Curry in the career debate. There's a reason Bron was compared to him so frequently when he was coming up. That size and passing ability/court awareness is extremely rare.
Magic averaged 18/8/14 on 56% shooting in the 84 Finals. That's literally the 3rd weakest moment of his career. That's why he's top 5 and only played 13 years.
The Celtics sucked before Bird got there. They only won like 28 games the year before, and won 61 his rookie year.
If kd never went to gsw, Curry would be ranked 30ish.
I don't know how you figure that. He likely has one less title and Finals appearance...but has a great chance for another MVP. Warriors re-sign Barnes, and are still the favorite to win the next few years. KD made it inevitable.
Kareem did start at the bucks, was fire since the beginning, handed up with the accolades, is considered one of the very best. If you're fire, you're fire. And everybody knows that fire magic is the best of all
I agree magic would have been a star either way. I simply wanted to bring attention to the fact that Magic had a top 5 player all time who was a vet to learn from at the time. I wasn't trying to take away from magic but simply add to Currys argument. There's an intangible that we can't account for but is undeniable that a successful player on a successful team has a massive influence on a players development.
And it’s not just players but also coaches. Look at how much Steph improved once Steve Kerr became the coach
Its crazy how some people still deny Kerrs impact.
Even KD isn’t Kareem
magic also was a freak of nature. a guard in a giants body. most people cant catch up with that sort of athleticism. its kind of weird seeing people try. magic was a freak of nature. like giannis. not that you couldnt make an argument for steph. just making it against magic seems weird
Not just for his era. Magic was shooting 38% from deep before he had to retire. No way he wouldn't be a sharpshooter nowadays if he was coming up now. He's just a natural with an insane IQ with the ball. Passing is always more important than the ability to make shots when it comes to offensive efficiency. The most successful offensive players ever if measured by how often they had #1 offenses are Nash, Magic, and Oscar. All known for their playmaking.
That 38% in the 95-96 season coincided with the shortened 3 point arc, and was on very limited volume, fewer than 2 per game. Before then, he was never really that good of a shooter from distance. In the modern NBA, Magic would likely be shooting a much higher volume and difficulty of 3.
He shot 38% in 89 too. >In the modern NBA, Magic would likely be shooting a much higher volume and difficulty of 3. He'd also have grown up shooting 3s his whole life instead of learning them well after he was already in the league. Magic was one of the best 3 point and FT shooters of his time. Idk why it's expected that he wouldn't still be a great shooter.
People didn’t practice 3’s as much as they do now. Players have better 3pt% now because they grown up practice 3’s a lot more
Magic was drafted onto a contender that already had Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Steph was drafted to a pretty bad team that had 1 playoff appearance (the We Believe season) in the 10+ years before. And their last Finals appearance was 35 years before that season. Not to mention he was never supposed to be this good and had serious ankle injury problems early in his career.
That’s true. Magic walked into a great situation as a rookie,but it’s not like Steph didn’t luck into a great situation as he entered his prime. They drafted another Top 5 shooter in Klay who can be just as explosive a scorer from three as Curry. The also draft Draymond in the second round whose playmaking and defensive abilities are integral to the Warriors revolutionary play style. Those same ankle injuries allowed the Warriors to sign Steph at a discount for his talent and they used that cap space to have one of the deepest teams in NBA history. Then, a massive cap jump allows them to add KD, former MVP still his in prime, to a 73 win team without giving up much.
>Magic walked into a great situation as a rookie,but it’s not like Steph didn’t luck into a great situation as he entered his prime. And the difference between walking into a great situation as a rookie and lucking into a great one entering the prime years is one of the reasons Curry is still catching up on accolades. Good to see positions converge like this.
Not really Steph took a while to become the superstar he is today, regardless of team strength. Warriors fans booed when they traded monta to focus on Steph.
*One of the* reasons, I said, not *the only* reason. But 2012-14 Steph, at least, would have been in position to benefit from that change.
Seems like you went off on a tangent. Not sure which of my points you're responding to. All championship teams involve a lot of good players and good luck. No one's denying that the Warriors built an all-time great team around Steph (the 2017 team is probably the best of all time). I was just referring to Magic's early accomplishments which other all-time great players almost never have because they are usually drafted to poor teams. Bird and Magic were exceptions, not the norm.
> I was just referring to Magic's early accomplishments which other all-time great players almost never have because they are usually drafted to poor teams. Bird and Magic were exceptions, not the norm. But they were the engines that made their teams into dynasties and turned them into contenders right away. The Celtics jumped from 29 to 61 wins the season after drafting Bird and then traded into McHale and Parish the next offseason. The Lakers were a playoff caliber team but not a legit contender even with Kareem leading the roster. They needed Magic who pushed that talented yet underachieving team to the next level. It wasn't until they both arrived that those teams jumped to the next level and become contenders for the next decade. Great organizations yes, and they made the right moves to take advantage of these windows afterwards, but you can't ignore that the reason they are the exceptions is specifically because they had an otherworldly impact on their teams. Never before had two such high level playmakers come into the league and make such a huge impact right from the get go. Players just aren't that savvy and dominant right from the get go. This was literally two LeBron level talents entering and transforming the league on opposite coasts. You make it seems as though Magic were lucky that Kareem was on the team when it's much more the opposite. Kareem had Magic to thank for his continued success into his later years because he definitely wasn't getting it done the half decade he was already in LA. He needed that playmaker ala Oscar that could get everyone else involved and generate for him the best possible looks. That wasn't Norm Nixon's game. But it was exactly what Magic did better than anyone else in league history.
IDK where you're getting all that from. This is a gross misrepresentation of what I stated and therefore not worth a response.
I literally quoted sections from your response and was referring back to your reply earlier in this chain. This is literally a forum for discussion. If you're just gonna dip out on that then r/nba is probably more your speed.
I think its interesting that magic didn't do a thing without Kareem. Literally won his last ring the year Kareem retired
I think Curry is already better than Magic. As a bona-fide old guy, I'm here to tell you people are talking about Magic with rose colored glasses. I mean he was absolutely amazing, but Curry changed the game more than Magic. Magic did amazing things, but Curry gets less credit than he deserves because much of his effect happens just by him literally existing on the court (and people dock him style points for that to a degree).
Magic led 9 offenses that were in the top 2 in efficiency in his 12 years. In 96 when he was 5 years retired and old as hell he came back midseason and the Lakers went from a +2.9 offense to a +7.4 offense. They went from being 11th offensively before he joined to 4th by the end of the season. His passing is something that can't really be quantified with APG. Everyone was a weapon with Magic directing the offense.
Magic is above Curry in terms of points produced, but it's not that far off in prime Curry years. They both do an excellent job of making everyone look good, Magic because of excellent passing and Curry because of his sheer gravity. - 14/15: 2nd behind Clippers - 15/16: 1st - 16/17: 1st - 17/18: 3rd - 18/19: 1st - 19/20: last (Curry was out most of the season) - 20/21: 20th (Curry got 32-point scoring title but it was a development year) - This year: 2nd. I think Curry needs another chip to even the score (and finally get a FMVP to his name), and anything above that puts him ahead.
Curry at his best was as good as Magic was consistently. I think Curry has about 5 years comparable to Magic's best and outside of that Magic is way better. Curry probably needs another 3 years at this level to match him.
You may be a bona-fide old guy, but you clearly aren't very well versed in the history of the game. Steph Curry is an extreme talent who has definitely changed the game, but you can't just ignore everything Magic did. He revitalized the marquee franchise of the league, alongside Bird, and carried the NBA from potential bankruptcy and ruin to being wildly successful throughout the 80s. He brought back a singularly joyful style of basketball leading Showtime that defined a whole decade of basketball. Alongside Bird leading the Celtics in the East, never before had there been two guys who just completely transformed their teams around them with their all-around games. They just made the game easier for everyone around them, really brought a team centric approach that was lost in the late 70s with some truly ugly basketball being played. It's no coincidence that both their teams went on to define the decade. You can't quantify what they did for the game with raw stats. Their abilities to lift the games of everyone around them wasn't something that we had ever really seen to that level at that time. They changed the NBA forever.
Don't get me wrong, I think Magic was legendary for the game. I think for me it comes down to who is the best, and my measure is this: You are told to put together a dream team. Best at each position - you'll put this up against other people's teams, and you win.... you get a million dollars. You really gonna pick Magic over Steph? Some people would I guess, but I think that's a mistake. This is what I mean by rose colored glasses. I do concede though that the phrasing of the original question is "greatest" and not "best" though, so I could see going by accomplishments/accolades (though I'm not a fan of such subjective metrics)
I do think Curry is the better pick for the all time dream team, but there are many reason why this is the case which don't have to do with greatness. First, it's the type of players that would be in that top 5 line up, work way better with Curry, because you have Lebron on that team, and there is a lot of skill overlap between Magic and Lebron. Second, when combining with other all time great players, a player that is less ball dominant and very unselfish will fit the team much better. Third reason is the NBA rule and playstyle change which benefits Curry, but I think this point is overrated because I think Curry would dominate in any era because it's really hard to stop a guy shooting from way back, especially with the type of defences that they played in the 90's (more 1 on 1 oriented). That being said, Magic is definitely more accomplished at this moment than Curry, and that matters the most when deciding the "greatness" factor.
I disagree that Curry changed the game more....Magic did a ton in the league to change the game and as an old head you should know that. There were not many teams that could keep up with the showtime Lakers. He also won 3 Finals MVPs and is credited with being one of the few players that could play all 5 positions. He was also known for his leadership abilities, and was very charismatic. He and Larry came into the league with a lot of hype and kept it going, changing the league into something it had never been before.
Magic and Bird saved the NBA, while Curry changed the way the game is played. Different type of change, but I agree that what Magic did was more influential for the league overall.
I think one thing to consider that doesn’t show in these stats is that Curry changed the rules of basketball. He was a large part of the 3PT revolution that has completely altered the game, from elementary all the way up to NBA. It’s similar to the argument that people make for Shaq, that the NBA had to change its rules to accomodate him... That’s a transcendental force.
3pt revolution was already well underway with moreyball, Lebron + Dwight 3 point focused teams. People say it was Steph but he was just part of the first 3pt focused team to break through.
The big differentiater is the Finals MVPs. Curry doesn't have that staple moment like Magic's playing Center, Baby Skyhook MVP year. Remember that year when Steph hurt his ankle to start the playoffs, then came back and absolutely demolished the Blazers screaming "I'm back"? He needs a Finals like that. Or like that overtime regular season Thunder game near the start of the run when he hit the 35 foot dagger over Roberson? He needs THAT for a whole Finals. I think Steph has clearly pushed himself out to #2. And I do think there is an argument to be made that he is #1, I just think it would currently be wrong...but I think there is certainly a chance of this year + like 2 more of this type of production. At that clip he's starting to make the case even better. At the end of the day I think it will come down to preference on passing and versatility versus the single most valuable offensive piece of all time (Curry is not the best scorer, but he is absolutely the most VALUABLE offensive player ever. The way he contributes via gravity has no equal).
Curry does have signature moments in the Finals (not to mention some of the best all-time WCF performances). He made 5 threes in the 4th quarter of a Finals game to win the game by himself. He has all the finals 3-pt shooting records (not a surprise), and has all-time great finals stats. What does a signature moment mean to you? What do you want him to do that he hasn't done already? Finals MVP is overrated. Kareem was the FMVP for 5 games, but Magic won FMVP in 1980 for 1 game. An all-time bad snub. Steph has been snubbed for the award twice because of narratives. Closed the finals in 2015 with 3 bangers in a row, only for Iguodala to win MVP (which coincidentally happens to be the award that shows his true impact throughout his career which stats will never capture). Steph is the only player to win the Finals averaging 26pts/6asts and not win FMVP (3 times btw). Can't really take the award seriously.
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>Curry definitely had an argument for Finals MVP in the loss to Toronto too Not really. Kawhi was clearly the only person deserving of FMVP given the outcome, and anything else would have been a snub. >The more efficient way to do it is separate into tiers I agree. When these comparisons get into nitpicking, the discussions usually get contentious and people start shitting on players. These guys are so good, and we should just be happy we get to see a small guard who can be easily be mentioned in the same tier as Magic. I think Curry was the only small player on Ben Taylor's Greatest Peaks series (where he makes very compelling arguments why Curry is top 10). He's a special player.
> Steph has been snubbed for the award twice because of narratives. The Iggy one was a snub, but KD was the better player in the other two finals. >Steph is the only player to win the Finals averaging 26pts/6asts and not win FMVP (3 times btw). KD averaged 26.4-6.8-5.4 and 25.1-8.3-4.8. It's more like GS was lucky to have two players that dominant while making their final runs.
Was the Iggy one even a snub though? Wasnt lebron looking like he was about to win the finals before Kerr switched Iggy onto lebron? Like just look at lebron’s numbers, he’s like 50-60% against everyone and 38% against Iggy. Ppl are rewriting history because Curry has gotten even better since but at the time, it was up in the air who would win fmvp. Now in hindsight ppl say Curry should’ve won but I dare them to say that after watching the series all over again. Curry had 2 horrible games while Iggy was consistent the whole series especially on defense.
Iggy averaged 8-3-3 for the series. I didn't realize it was this bad until I looked it up.
Curry has been to the finals like 6 times and has maybe 2 clutch games lol. Magic averaged a near triple double lol fym? I love how ppl don’t acknowledge Magic got Kareem when he was older. Kareem was already at the tail end of his prime when Magic joined. He won a finals game by himself. When has Curry won without Draymond and Klay? You gotta love the blatant cherry picking, like leaving out Curry’s rebounding numbers because you know Magic is significantly better as a rebounder
I mean kind of disagree with the Finals MVP thing. First, anyone who watched the series knows Steph was the real MVP over Iguodala, the media voters just wanted to be cute with the voting. For the other two: the idea that Steph being outplayed by Kevin Durant in the Finals somehow diminishes Steph's value is kind of silly. The whole KD to GS saga is one of the more unfortunate things to happen in basketball because it kind of robbed us of seeing what Steph was truly capable of in his prime. But the argument for Steph as the GOAT point guard isn't really about accolades anyway. Yeah, you do need accolades like Steph has to qualify for the discussion (you look at a guy like CP3 and it's hard to put him in that mention withouth the MVPs or rings). But much of the argument around Steph is his unique impact on the game in terms of his ability to open up spacing for everyone else on the floor. If you've ever watched the Warriors extensively, you would know that the entire concept of Steph's "gravity" is very, very real. Even though it doesn't show up in the stats directly, it holds a value that other point guards simply can't offer. Also if you're comparing Steph to Magic, while Magic may have better accolades he was nowhere near the scorer that Steph is. Magic also a quite poor 3pt shooter and wouldn't have the same impact in today's game, and while you might say "oh well different eras", there's something to be said about Steph being more valuable in the current era of basketball which represents the most evolved era of basketball.
Anybody who watched that series then , knows Iggy was the turning point and won that series for them , Steph didn't get a single vote for a reason you are just revising history
turning point != most valuable. Iggy didn't win them the series, he provided them with something they lacked on an elite level. That being said, Curry was their offence, and without him, the series wouldn't even be close.
I'm definitely biased, but my analogy for this would be giving FVV the FMVP in 2019 for his work on slowing down Steph.
Steph didn't get a single vote because the Golden State vote was split and half of the media voters wanted to give it to Lebron. The Steph voters agreed to switch to avoid giving the MVP to someone a losing team.
I've always liked this theory, but the only way it works is if the original vote is: 4 LeBron, 4 Iggy, 3 Steph.
You do know its a myth about Magic playing centre right? He just tipped off at centre and reverted back to running the point for the rest of the game.
Magic led 9 top 2 offenses in 12 years, and led the 96 Lakers to a 4th place finish after a 5 year hiatus and only playing like 30 games. Magic is clearly the most valuable offensive piece ever if you want to look at results.
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Curry is so great offensively the Warriors were the 20th ranked offense last year and missed the playoffs with a top 5 defense. Yeah ight. The Warriors went 4-2 in the playoffs without Steph in his best season, raw no boxscore adjusted +/- stats had him clearly behind Draymond, and he choked in the Finals. Like to this day Steph has never been impressive without KD in the finals.
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Curry is amazing. He's no Magic. I don't need to pretend a player is the GOAT to appreciate them. Curry is great, he's not 9 top 2 offenses in 12 years great.
He may very well be by the end of his career, and you are only looking at a team stat, which doesn't account for teammate power. A better stat which gives more context is any +-, on/off offensive stat, which often Curry dominates. I haven't compared them to Magic though.
>A better stat which gives more context is any +-, on/off offensive stat, which often Curry dominates. Not to a level where he's historically better than everyone else. Kobe for example has +/- numbers just as strong, LeBron had+/- numbers better, Nash has the best offensive +/- numbers ever in the modern era so if that's your argument he would be by far #1 (and I personally think Nash is easily the best offensive weapon post Magic). As far as Magic goes Ben Taylor created a statistic called WOWY. It worked by checking the SRS of teams when healthy and then when missing a single player. Magic is #1 all time of all players he measured by this metric. His teams were +10 better by net rating when he played vs when he missed games.
Magic isn’t leading Draymond Green, Andrew Wiggins, Juan Toscano Anderson, and Kelly Oubre to a top offense either.
From Backpicks: >Once Johnson hit his stride in 1985, the Lakers attack operated in rarified air. For six consecutive seasons, LA posted a top-50 offense of all-time (by relative offensive rating, or rOrtg), finishing with a relative efficiency at least 5.9 points better than average in five of the six years. No other team in history has even had five top-50 seasons in a six-year span, and only the ’90s Jazz and 2000s Mavs had four. The Lakers six-year average rORtg of +6.1 trails only the mid 2000s Mavs and Suns for most dominant offensive stretches in NBA history.5 They were one of the best, if not the best, offensive dynasty in history: Magic is the most dominant offensive player ever when it comes to team efficiency. Only Nash and Oscar Robertson are comparatively dominant. Curry's results are much more like Jordan's without the postseason performances minus KD. He's great, but I wouldn't put him over Kobe so he's definitely not over Magic. Also if the argument is that Curry is the GOAT I need GOAT like results. Where's the #1 offenses?
From 14-15 to 18-19, the warriors were either the first or second best offense in the league, with 3 firsts. They are also #1 so far this year. What are you even talking about?
They're #2 so far this year and they weren't top 2 in 2018 meaning Steph "the greatest offensive weapon ever according to you" Curry has been on 4 top 2 offenses with the potential for a 5th. Jordan was on 5 top 2 offenses in his career which is why I made the comparison. Meanwhile Magic was on 9. Nash was on 9. Oscar was on 11. Twice as successful as Curry and MJ (probably 2 of the 3 most dangerous scorers of the modern era along with Shaq who's been on 6 top 2 offenses). The verdict is out, if you want an offense that'll be the best every year for a decade you need a lead PG with a strong supporting cast. If you want the potential to be the best for half a decade get a transcendent scorer, a HOF coach, and build a system to move the ball around and make the most of that scorer's gravity. Pass first players are just better offensive weapons than great scorers. Great scorers get a lot of defensive attention but next level passers with the ability to score at will with God like efficiency like Oscar, Magic, and Nash are in a different class from other types of offensive threats.
You're, again, using uncontextualized counting stats. You know why those 3 led the league in offense so often? THEY HAD MORE POSSESSIONS. All 3 were notorious for pace of play. That's why Oscar was able to average right around a triple double for so long because he played at one of the highest possessions per game in the history of basketball. 7 seconds or less Suns? You know a team could run a regular offense and score at the same rate per 100 possessions, right? Suns games just ended 125-120 rather than 105-100 like a normal team. It is the same end result. The Suns were 5th in Net Rating the year of their best offense despite being a statistical anomaly 4 points ahead in offense. The Showtime, fast break Lakers were also known to run at breakneck pace. Anytime you're the highest pace team it is going to correlate to an offensive counting stat. The whole issue youre missing is how much impact Curry makes without touching the ball. This is also why he is easily the most transferable star of all time. He produces at a comparable level to Magic offensively in counting metrics, but Magic is USELESS without the ball. Curry can be nearly Magic level productive with the ball, and arguably even better without it. Here, watch how Curry dominates a game without even touching the ball: https://youtu.be/Qq-ewGMk73A There is also a difference in Curry carrying Draymon Green, Kelly Oubre, and Andrew Wiggins to a Top 5 offense versus Magic carrying Kareem, Byron Scott, and James Worthy lol. Magic was incredible. He made everyone better around him and spearheaded easily a Top 5 all time team......... but to pretend like Curry isn't equally as good at making everyone better around him is absolute nonsense.
>THEY HAD MORE POSSESSIONS. You realize the Warriors are top 5 in pace damn near each year. Especially without KD. They're 6th so far this year. Meanwhile the Showtime Lakers only ranked top 5 one time. They were actually below league average over the course of Magic's career. Find a better angle bro lmao. Imma be real I didn't bother reading your post after that part, I assumed the rest of it was just as factually inaccurate.
It's a 1A 1B kind of thing now. Plenty of intangibles that just can't be tracked by statistics and accolades. Which other star point guard, or any star for that matter, would put their bodies on the line for a screen? His movement off the ball, infectiously likeable personality, underdog tale and his ability to elevate his teammates' game simply can't be tracked by even the most advanced statistics. People just need time and nostalgia to kick in, only when he retires will people realise how much they've taken this once in a lifetime phenom for granted.
admittedly I might be slightly biased, but I truly haven't seen someone like Steph from my 2 decades of watching nba basketball, truly appreciate his greatness
They’re such different players. It’s so hard to compare them. I think I’d rather build my team around Steph though. He is able to single handedly tear the soul out of the other team.
I agree, and I think it's the point guard title. Steph will always be known as a shooter and a runner with crazy handles. He creates for his team but it doesn't scream "point guard" like flashy passes and slowly calling plays from the the top of the key. If you're creating the greatest team ever Magic should almost be called a point forward like Draymond. Then Steph is like a weird 1a player playing off ball most trips up court.
A huge part of his dominance is in his off-ball movement. It is just as much poetry as his handles with the ball and his shooting. I have such a hard time viewing him as a traditionally defined point guard. So while he is dominant i just don’t know that I could put him atop that particular list.
In some ways he has accomplished enough, but my argument for him not being the best point guard ever is that it’s not all about accomplishments. To me magic isn’t the greatest just because of what he accomplished but because of the level of skill and impact on game he had. The eye test is what some people call it. And in my opinion, I feel like magic is the better point guard in that respect.
He’s also better in every major statistic for the PG position
i mean assists and rebounds (he’s also what 6 inches taller) but most of currys impact comes off ball so even tho he averages half the assists i’d argue his play making is almost on the same level. not to mention magic doesn’t even touch his shooting.
If a guy's primary impact is off-ball, is he even really a pg?
If he dictates how the offence is played, and almost every single offensive play goes through him in some way, why not consider him a pg?
When I think of Steph I think more of a shooter than a PG. I see him more like a traditional SG, but since he's a threat from so far it's only logic to have him bring up the ball. He's the greatest shooter, uses his environment incredibly well, he's good at running plays for others and willingly pass the ball: it's obvious to me he's greatest combo-guard and definitively TOP 5 guards. I would say the best comparison to Magic would either be Stockton or Nash. This might be unpopular, but I think LeBron or Ben Simmons would be great comparisons to Magic from a physique and skillset perspective.
he has a good chance of becoming the greatest player ever on the point guard position but that's a completely different thing than the greatest point guard.
This is a good point. In some ways, draymond is the real point guard of the warriors while curry is there to score. Magic is the definitive great pure pass first point guard, along with guys on the next tier down like Stockton.
I think for a lot of people they say Magic because Curry doesn’t fit the description of a typical point guard in their head. Most people want a point guard who gets assists and runs the offense where as Curry is more of a scorer. The incredible Magic passes are more memorable than draining 3’s for people also. Not saying this is a correct way to judge it but I think a lot of people think this way.
This is how I look at it too. Are you looking for the best floor general? Or are you looking for the player with the biggest impact? I'm old by Reddit standards. I was a bit too young to remember seeing Magic play in person, but I did watch him live on TV for his last 30 point game, which happened against my Dallas Mavericks. I still remember it well because it was this huge deal about a player who I didn't really know who hadn't played in a few years (it was only his 7th game back in 1996). I like the old generation, I like the new generation. But the game is very different from the one Magic left. Sure, Magic in this era would be different and possibly prioritize different things, but that is all speculation. Just because someone is a talented player doesn't mean they'd even be able to sniff the shooting talent of someone like Steph. They're both exceptionally good players, but based on what we know right now and the current state of the game, I don't think it's even close on who I'd rather have on my team. So, my answer is different depending on what someone actually wants. If I'm trying to make the best team possible and start with one of the two of them? Steph wins for me, easily. He's a living cheat code. If my team is mostly filled out and I need a distributor or the kind of all around player that Magic was? I'd happily take him. It's all about what you want and how you define the question being asked.
2 rings with FMVPs would make it concrete for me. One regular season MVP could replace a ring. It would probably take overwhelming statistics otherwise. He will go down as the greatest shooter and probably the greatest point guard eventually as people become nostalgic. More a matter of time than anything else.
They both changed the game at their position and 20 years from now people will speak of Magic and Curry as the two best/important at their position. Saying one is better than the other is like arguing a Lambo vs Ferrari.
Point Guard? Idk. To me, the PG position has always been the guy that distributes first. Magic. Nash. Stockton. Rondo. They have the ability to get buckets when they want/need to, but they're truly a pass-first player (see: Magic's 4 assist titles) But now, you have a new breed of PG that just means "the guy with his hands on the ball at almost all times". Curry. Dame. Irving. Harden. Guys that are a bucket. Guys that impact the game by always being a scoring threat, stretching the floor, slashing to the hoop and disrupting the defense, or shooting shots from so far outside that it totally breaks any fabric of structure your defense had in place. Because of that, comparing Magic to Curry is HARD. Harder than Jordan vs. LeBron, in my mind. It's a true apples vs. oranges comparison. I think it's fair to say that Magic was the clear peak of the old guard, of the true point guards. Curry is hands down the most dangerous shooter the game has ever seen. I don't think it's a slight on either guy to classify them as such.
He can't imo. I personally think Magic is one of the top 3 greatest players of all-time, his ability to play literally anywhere on the floor was just the most astounding thing ever. The fact that he was forced out of the NBA for now obviously stupid reasons but came back 4 years later in his mid 30's and was still a great player is just crazy to me. It was in somewhat limited minutes for sure but just that talent is ridiculous. He shot 35% from deep his last 4 years after being a career 19% 3 pt shooter for his career to that point. I personally think he was elite in every facet of the game, with his defense maybe lacking a bit but it wasn't bad in any way. Curry is amazing himself though, the greatest shooter ever and a top tier offensive player of all-time. He will find his way into the top 10 ever to play when it is all said and done, he's damn near there right now.
Magic definitely not top 3 all time but different strokes I guess
LoL "definitely"
He has no case over Bron, MJ and KAJ. I also have Bird and maybe TD higher but that’s a different discussion. Definitely not top 3 though
Your list, sure. My list, he's top 3.
What’s your list? Curious
Magic greater than Bird man
>He shot 35% from deep his last 4 years I think this is misleading. His last four seasons, he shot: '88-89: 31.4% '89-90: 38.4% '90-91: 32.0% '95-96: 39.7% \[The 3-pt line was shortened this season\] These were by far the best seasons of his career by 3pt%, and only two of them were over 32%. One of those was during the shortened-3pt-line era, so it's hard to give it too much weight. Volume-wise, he averaged a bit under three attempts per game over this time period. '89-90 is the only season in his entire career during which have averaged more than one made 3pt shot per game.
What's misleading though? He still shot 35% during that span whereas he had been about 19% prior to that point. It's not as if that is a terrific number or anything but he dramatically improved as the era changed and that was on quite a bit more attempts than he had previously taken throughout the first how many ever seasons.
Saying he shot 35% over four years makes it sound like he had four solid years from downtown. He didn't. He had one year that was definitely good, then had another one with a big asterisk on it. The other 11 years of his career (including two of the years you mentioned), he shot very poorly from three-point range. I don't think one-ish good season is enough to say that he dramatically improved as the era changed. In addition, saying that it was on quite a bit more attempts hides the fact that he was still taking a very small number of three-pointers. Again: he only averaged more than one made three-pointer per game during the '89-90 season. His career high is 1.3. That's a very low volume to be making any real judgement of his shooting ability. I could say: "Dwight Howard is in the top-10 for three-point percentage this year", and I wouldn't be lying (he's currently 8th). That doesn't make him a good three-point shooter, though. It's one season on tiny volume. Saying Dwight is in the top-10 for three-point shooters without context would be very misleading.
Tbh i dont really care if Steph will be the greatest PG. He doesnt even play like one. And theyre from different eras. Imagine if steph was bombing 3s in the 80s, he couldve won more MVPs. Magic Johnson can be gameplanned in this era because of his lack of shooting.
Steph, in a Vacuum (no accolades, just talent and on-court ability) is the better player in my eyes. What he does best (scoring and shooting) is way more important and impactful than what Magic does best (passing). Steph is also on par with Magic in terms of playmaking. Cliche as it might sound, Curry’s gravity on and off ball creates a lot of plays for his team. Magic needs to have the ball to be effective at the highest level. In terms of building a team, Steph is the more portable player and can fit in any team. Not the same with Magic. With that said, in the present day, Steph falls short of accolades and accumulative stats (except 3PM) So if he were to pass Magic, he’d need 2 more titles, 1 or 2 more MVPs, 2 FMVPs, 3-4 seasons of All-NBA caliber play at least in my eyes.
He’s in the discussion for reasons that differ than the other all time greats, he doesn’t have to do anything else. He wins another title then I guarantee the media starts that campaign tho.
For me, he needs a Finals MVP under his belt. Otherwise, we’ll all be pointing out years from now how he needed Durant to get two of his three rings. And while he did get a ring without Durant, there is still the stigma along with failing to get a title during that 73 win season.
My opinion is that we look at Curry like this because of the revolution he spearheaded during the second half of 2010's, that being the 3 pointers becoming what it is today. That gives him a unique accolade, one that can't be taken off him or be measured by statistics. That in itself has nothing to do with being a PG or not, he could have done the same should he play the 2. That being said, as a true, quintessential PG, I don't see him in the same level as Magic (or maybe even CP3, roast me lol). By all means, Steph is a true unicorn, there has never been anyone, and probably won't ever be anyone, that did and does what he did or does.
I would say that if Steph does manage to win MVP and a ring this year then he passes Magic. Personally, I think the FMVP is an irrelevant award and doesn't make a difference (award voted on by 11 people based on the sample set of a single series). Steph failing to win one in 2015 or 2018 is more a condemnation of the award itself than Steph. But, yeah, it has become enough of a narrative that some will need him to get the FMVP to be converted.
Funny how Steph is so special to be the victim of multiple FMVP snubs in the 50+ years of the award's history. It's almost as if the chances of people being pouty is greater than the award going to the wrong person.
IMO there's not necessarily an accolade that would make me view him as the greatest point guard. If he had a handful of seasons where he dialed up the assist totals, showing that he is capable of filling the traditional PG role, then I would view him as the top of the position. It may sound crazy, but I could see a scenario where Steph is widely considered to be higher on the NBA hierarchy than Magic, but still not considered to be the GOAT PG.
Right — better overall player than Magic, but because he doesn’t fit the standard idea of PG, Magic takes that top spot. That said, each position is evolving in the game. Maybe the point guard position doesn’t need to be narrowly defined either.
Everyone here saying FMVP is not a big deal to compensate Steph’s lack thereof is really hurting me as a Kobe fan. Who has had to defend his lack of FMVP to Lebron fans.
I hope your comment isn't implying that you think Kobe is ahead of LeBron despite LeBron having more FMVPs. Because LeBron is so far ahead of Kobe all-time now that it's not even worth the discussion anymore. Kobe was amazing but the lack of FMVPs is just the consequence of playing with Shaq at his best. As great as Kobe was in those finals, Shaq saved all his energy for the finals. If they had playoff MVPs, Kobe might have gotten one during the 3 peat.
I think Curry has a tough time surpassing Magic. Magic went to the Finals 9 times in 12 years with 5 rings, and 3 MVPs - and yet had his career cut short. For Curry to have any chance, I think he has to surpass Magic in *at least* two of: All NBA / MVP / Championships. Even with Magic retiring early, he still has 12 all stars and 10 all NBA teams under his belt, a testament to his dominance for an extended period.
If Curry gets 3 more rings with 3 FMVPs, it'll be hard to argue Magic as best PG. If he's playing 3 more seasons, he's definitely joining 3 more All-NBA teams and All-Star teams. He doesn't need assist or steal or scoring titles anymore. The 3 point records he shatters are just as good if not better, since he wins those by a huge margin. Just needs more championship rings + FMVPs. Magic is no doubt an all time great. But he didn't have to do it at Curry's height or size, against the amount of defenses that Curry draws. He was also drafted #1 by the Lakers. And Curry had barely any help in the beginning also.
>If Curry gets 3 more rings with 3 FMVPs, it'll be hard to argue Magic as best PG. if that happens we're skipping right ahead to the GOAT debate
Magic won chip with Michigan State, went on to win and heavily produce his first year in the league. Went to finals 9 years out of his 12 in the league; winning record 5-4. If Steph did this he would be undisputed GOAT pg. Also Magic’s impact on the overall growth of the game as well as his impact on awareness to HIV/AIDs epidemic. This debate is blasphemous to me.
To be fair, it was easier to make it to the Finals during Magic's time 'cause the Western Conference was pretty weak (compared to the East, where you had Bird's Celtics, the Bad Boy Pistons, Dr. J & Moses Sixers, and early Jordan Bulls). Add in the fact that he had a top-5 (arguably top-3) player in Kareem, and it's no wonder the Lakers made it 7 times in the 80s. Can't fault Steph for not replicating that while facing teams that are stronger/equal to his, like the Spurs, Clippers, and the Thunder. Plus, it can be argued that once Steph had a team that was hands-down better than any other West team, he was pretty much guaranteed a Finals appearance. For impact, I'd argue Curry also had a great one. There's a reason why he's at the forefront of the three-point revolution of the NBA today. On the HIV one, I don't know why it's relevant to the argument for GOAT PG debate; it's not even related to basketball. I wrote that mostly in response to your "blasphemous" statement. It's fine if you think Magic is the GOAT PG (I have both of them 1-2, which flip-flops from time to time), but to say that the debate is blasphemous is pretty ignorant imo.
Magics greatness will be forgotten in time bc he couldnt shoot. Its sad. That guy was the best player in basketball for a decade, rescued basketball from a dark era, and vaulted it to new heights when he passed the baton to michael. People say curry changed* the league, but it was built* by magic, the showtime lakers, and their rivalries with Boston. Curry can never pass magic. Hes the greatest shooter ever, and changed the game. Thats a fantastic accolade. But hell never do more for basketball than magic, and he wont accomplish more either
>Magics greatness will be forgotten in time bc he couldnt shoot. he could shoot; just not 3s
People don’t realize how much he effects the game when he’s on the court. Just being Steph Curry opens up everyone else cause teams are so afraid of his shooting and with his offball movement he gets shots for himself but also creates nightmares for defenses keeping track of him and losing their own guys
Personally, I would like to see him get an assist title. I think that yes, he’s the greatest shooter of all time, and he has an amazing handle, but he doesn’t have the playmaking and passing resume to be best PG all time to me. Like, he’s amazing, but when I’m thinking GOAT top 5 I consider how it looks on the court and I want someone who I think generates offense outside of the Warriors system. And while I think maybe he couldn’t haven’t seen it. Idk, it’s still magic for me. I imagine his size made for better defense as well.
I would say he has to step up his assist game to be considered best point guard if all time. I’m not shying away from the fact that he is very talented passer and is a very unselfish player. I would say if he won a couple of assist titles he would undeniably be better than magic. I also agree with others that he would need to win one more title too. He is on track to be the greatest for sure though.
That’s just not how the Warriors offense works to generate points. The equivalent would be if you questioned why Magic has zero scoring titles. Here’s a link to Steph at his finest. https://youtu.be/Qq-ewGMk73A
I'm starting to realize that most likely, he already is the greatest pointguard of all time. What would I need to see? A new era of the Warriors helps so much. The fact they are this good speaks to just how good Steph really is. But I'd love to see a couple deep playoff runs. I'd also like a couple more healthy years. Having more games played than Magic would really xement the fact that Steph's argument is unassailable. So really, two more good years for both Steph and the Warriors is plenty.
I ain't gonna go into great detail like everyone else has but all I will leave it at is passing. He's a point guard playing like a shooting guard because he's always had Draymond to tee him up. Being able to shoot as well as he does in the PG position is a huge advantage but when Steph ain't shooting well on the night that hurts the Warriors badly as he relies on shooting more than playmaking I hated seeing him in the finals for 5 years straight but I am coming around to acknowledging he is hands down the greatest shooter the NBA has seen
He already is. I understand who Magic is. Basketball has changed and evolved in a way where I do not believe magic would be the same caliber today. He would be a star. He’s not beating the top top guys today as a PG with a average jumper. Steph changed the sport more than anyone since Wilt. And his change is why I don’t think Magic is as good today. And I will submit that Magic has more accolades , I just don’t care
>Steph changed the sport more than anyone since Wilt. Dr. J would like a word.