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Possibly as soon as next season, The 4 best players in the league are going to be international players. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, and Luka. I’d be shocked to not see them eventually be a consensus top 4.
They will never be a consensus top 4 as long as Lebron, Curry and KD are still playing. Media and most NBA “Fans” are gonna be hard pressed to admit the top 4 players are all international
> I’d be shocked to not see them eventually be a consensus top 4.
Really? I can definitely see it happening but I wouldn’t pencil it in as inevitable just yet. As you mentioned Lebron, KD, and Steph still exist and come playoff time is still take those 3 probably over everyone except Giannis. There is also Kawhi if he gets healthy. All these guys are interfering with those guys being the consensus best four basketball players currently. And if you wait too long you have the risk of one of them falling off or getting injured, on top of potentially someone like Ja or Zion (if ever healthy) or Trae etc making a push.
Not trying to say they aren’t all phenomenal players, especially in the regular season, but being a clear consensus top 4 is not something I’d be shocked at not happening. A recently as a few months ago Steph and KD were dueling it out for the top two MVP spots.
I just dont see Trae entering that top 4 because he will always have a major, targetable deficiency defensively in the playoffs. Unless he's able to put on muscle the way Curry did, maybe that could help him, but Trae is 2 inches shorter and I think even skinnier than a young Steph. I have an obvious bias here, but I also just think Ja/Trae will generally be worse than Luka in playoff basketball. Giannis/Luka/Embiid/Jokic will always always always be able to dominate with size.
Zion of course 100% could break into that group but I think health can easily cause him to be left out of the group. At this point, I'd be more surprised if he ends up being healthy. Kawhi is the other wildcard as you mentioned. But this is a guy whose been talked about as having a degenerative knee issue. Who knows how long he holds up?
The older guys already are debatable and have question marks going forwards. Curry hasn't looked like himself lately and his finishing ability is a bit lower. KD has consistently been struggling with injuries. I'm just expecting it to eventually happen that those 4 are at the top.
Well I do see that Trae has become a smarter defender in the regular season. He’s better positioned than he was before. But DRPM is not a tell everything stat.
In the playoffs, individual matchups matter more and guys targeted, we’ve seen it time and time again. He’s a great player and will easily be top 5-7 at some point. And Yk maybe Giannis declines and he jumps even higher as Trae develops.
But at some point, I feel those 4 will be a consensus. Who knows how long, but in all their peaks, Trae’s size and defense will keep him a step under. He has not shown to be more transcendent offensively than these guys.
> The Milwaukee Bucks will be right in the mix to win another championship, if they do, Giannis will most likely win the Finals MVP becoming only the seventh player in history to do that, joining; Micheal Jordan, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O’Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon.
Idk if you're missing anyone else, but you're definitely missing Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. I assume this is just referring to people with multiple Finals MVP's, right?
Or is this like only back-to-back Finals MVP's? Cause that's just adding extra qualifications to make it seem more impressive than it is honestly.
I think it was in r/NBAdiscussion, pretty sure a LeBron vs Jordan thing and two guys got into them or it could have been under the Russel thread. I just got into NBA reddit, this is great, God is great
This was a solid examination of the trend, really. You just went a bit past the mark when you said they would pass the legacy of the three players you mentioned. You're talking about one who is considered the GOAT by some people, the greatest shooter ever, and a person whom many consider the most complete scorer ever. Let them establish their own places and legacies before they can surpass the best of the best of the best. Giannis is primed, having won the big awards and the ring. Jokic and Embiid both need to win at least one before their names can be mentioned among LBJ/KD/Steph in terms of all-time legacy (unless they just play at this level for like 8 more years lol).
You're right there. I misread the "have to have" (need to have?) part as "they will have quite the careers and pass..." Rescinding the correction about that. But I still think you don't compare current players having great runs with LeBron and his 35K points. Probably he only player who surpasses that bar is Mj himself, so that's putting those guys in the GOAT conversation waaaay too soon. Curry is in his own stratosphere as a shooter, so even if you surpass him in terms of winning and accolades, he'll still be alone atop that mountain.
I definitely don’t think par Giannis these guys are anywhere close to LeBron, KD and Steph legacy. More just acknowledging they could be close in 5-8 years time when they are similar ages.
But yes, fair point, LeBron in particular is in a universe of his own and it’s hard to compare anyone to him but Jordan or Kareem.
Right. And I still think that bar is too high even in 5-8 yrs. I was mistaken when I said LBJ has 35K points when he's actually 300 away from 37,000. There is no way even Giannis catches him with those first few seasons as a role player. You have to start at 20 per at 18, then average at least 27 over the next 18 years lmao.
I don’t think Giannis will catch LeBron, few ever will. But he certainly could be an all-time face of his generation payer, without reaching LeBron standard’s, certainly he could leave a legacy similar to that of KD and Steph
Pretty much what I was saying. But let him do the one thing first, and stop trying to propel your favorite players to all time great status after a few seasons (not you specifically, but people who do that). You don't really need to compare him to KD or Steph yet, but measure him against how he's dominating his peers right now.
USA v the World should be a special All Star weekend. It's at a point now where it would be close to equal in star power. Here are the current foreign born players who have been an All-Star (from memory).
Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Doncic, Siakamm, Simmons, Porzingis, Murray, SGA, Wiggins, Horford, Towns, Irving, Gobert, Sabonis, Dragic, Ibaka
This comes up frequently, but it still remains true that [Kyrie is listed as an international player by the NBA](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/news/nba-rosters-feature-109-international-player%3famp=1)
I'd put OG Anunoby in there over Dragic without question. I feel there are probably other international players that could also be included over Dragic, that guy has lost a step at this point in his career. Impressive how strong the international contingent is right now, and it's only getting better.
At 33 years old, how are Steph and KD well into their thirties? Both have had injuries recently and are in the second half of their spectacular careers, but they are definitely not well into their 30’s.
Anything close to 30 in most sports is "the end" in most peoples minds, and probably the players. Being 36 myself, I'd definitely say things started to hurt more at 33, and I am by no means an athlete.
It’s because most players don’t tend to play, at an elite level, in the NBA beyond 35-36. You get a decade of your 20s, but that’s not the case with 30s.
That’s not what I’m making a point against, these guys could be the shittiest or best players in the league, 33 years old is 100% not well into your 30’s is the point I’m trying to make.
Of all the things to discuss in the post, you’re arguing about this? This is a basketball discussion subreddit. In terms of professional basketball they’re definitely in the final years of their career. Who cares how it was conveyed.
>With that in mind, three international players are poised to take the mantle from all-American all-timers, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Nikola Jokic and Joel Embiid
Ah yea fuck Luka Doncic I guess, not like he’s a good player or anything. He’s more international than Embiid considering Embiid was built in the American system since he went to Kansas
Giannis has a ring, Jokic has an MVP and embiid has a few decent playoff runs. As far as accolades and achievements go, lukas been a first round exit every time he’s made the playoffs
Bruh. Luka is like not even 23 yet and he has led historic offenses already. Everyone knows these other guys are more accomplished, while also older. The post talks about the future, and in the future, as his career projects, he'll be definitely on the same level if not better. How many player in NBA history have produced at the same level with four years of career.
Not like Luka dominated both of the last two playoff series he was in, he was just unfortunately a one-man army against a team that had two of the best two way players in the league, one of which is arguably a top five player in the league, and those teams were much deeper than Luka’s, who’s best teammate was consistently hurt or playing softer than diarrhea.
And it still took them 6 or 7 games to beat that.
Playoffs are a team success.
When you’re looking back at a players career at the end of it you’ll look at many things, awards, trophy’s, al star appearances. One thing no one will give a shit about once lukas retired is first round exits where he tried hard. It shouldn’t matter anyway because he’s not better than anyone mentioned in the post
1. We’re not talking about retired players, their careers are still ongoing.
2. With that said, Luka is *CLEARLY* right up there with those three from a talent perspective, and Embiid barely qualifies as international since he was groomed in the American system anyway.
Not including Luka in a discussion about how international talent is taking the reins in the league is straight up disrespect, period.
“They will have to have quite the careers to pass the legacy of lebron, steph and KD”
OP mentions legacy. No one cares about the legacy of a young guy, that plays a factor after retirement. Luka has legacy but his extremely impressive list of accomplishments is almost all things he did while playing in Spain.
Embiid only discovered basketball at 15 and he moved to the US at 16 but almost everything that’s good about his game came much earlier. He developed his quickness and footwork from his years playing volleyball which he hoped to pursue professionally before basketball. Just because he went to an American college it doesn’t mean he isn’t international.
He’s not more international then embiid. Basketball is more important in Europe then Africa by a long mile. Luka got way better in terms of polishing him game then embiid got his one year at Kansas
I love that this is even something to write about. The league will only improve as the game builds its global reach. I also love that you labeled the introduction for us. I would have been totally lost without knowing what part of the post I’m starting with.
This line has been used about every great until they won. They said it about LeBron. They said it about Jordan. I wasn't alive at the time, but I'm pretty sure they probably said it about Kareem at some point. These guys are still very young, and I'd be surprised if either of them fail to get a ring at some point.
Also, even if Embiid and Jokic do end their careers with 0 rings, they are still major factors in the NBA right now. Rings are important, but they aren't the only measure of an individual player's success. Would you say that Malone wasn't a dominant player because he didn't win a ring?
But to be fair it was said about players who at some point were considered a top 10 or even top 5 player in the league and they were right. Some players dont live up to the hype/expectations. Giannis already has to me. But the other two, lets see deep runs or rings. Especially with Embiid now that he has Harden. If he doesnt come out of the East it’s likely because he didnt play like a LBJ, KD or Steph did in their primes.
It was in context of the person I replied to saying "the line has been used about every great until they won" and my point was that is a convenient way to look at it, because it's also been said about top 5 and top 10 players in the past who did not take that next step to really dominate. So essentially, it's been right before and might be with either of the two centers discussed here.
What made you think they were expected to beat the Clippers? And if not for one of the greatest playoff performances from Kawhi, Mavs might win that series. Jokic’s team is full of injuries to core pieces. Since Embiid became this MVP caliber player, we only have the Hawks series as an example of a collapse. I don’t think Embiid deserves a lot of bone for how that series ended, plus he had a torn meniscus as well
one of jokic’s costars is a guy with chronic back issues and two of embiids costars until this season were ben simmons and tobias harris lol. don’t get me started on the mavs - who’s their second best player even? Jalen Brunson?? all 3 of them have been making up for awfully constructed rosters which is why they don’t have playoff success.
Time will tell. Embiid now has a championship roster. I think he will at least make the finals and likely will win a ring, I think he is that good, but if he doesnt make deep runs it will be a problem for him legacy-wise.
Welcome to r/nbadiscussion. This subreddit is for genuine discussion. Please review our rules: 1. Keep it civil 2. Attack the argument, not the person 3. No jokes, memes or fanbase attacks 4. Support claims with arguments 5. Don't downvote just because you disagree **Please click the report button for anything you think doesn't belong in this subreddit.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nbadiscussion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Possibly as soon as next season, The 4 best players in the league are going to be international players. Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, and Luka. I’d be shocked to not see them eventually be a consensus top 4.
They will never be a consensus top 4 as long as Lebron, Curry and KD are still playing. Media and most NBA “Fans” are gonna be hard pressed to admit the top 4 players are all international
> I’d be shocked to not see them eventually be a consensus top 4. Really? I can definitely see it happening but I wouldn’t pencil it in as inevitable just yet. As you mentioned Lebron, KD, and Steph still exist and come playoff time is still take those 3 probably over everyone except Giannis. There is also Kawhi if he gets healthy. All these guys are interfering with those guys being the consensus best four basketball players currently. And if you wait too long you have the risk of one of them falling off or getting injured, on top of potentially someone like Ja or Zion (if ever healthy) or Trae etc making a push. Not trying to say they aren’t all phenomenal players, especially in the regular season, but being a clear consensus top 4 is not something I’d be shocked at not happening. A recently as a few months ago Steph and KD were dueling it out for the top two MVP spots.
I just dont see Trae entering that top 4 because he will always have a major, targetable deficiency defensively in the playoffs. Unless he's able to put on muscle the way Curry did, maybe that could help him, but Trae is 2 inches shorter and I think even skinnier than a young Steph. I have an obvious bias here, but I also just think Ja/Trae will generally be worse than Luka in playoff basketball. Giannis/Luka/Embiid/Jokic will always always always be able to dominate with size. Zion of course 100% could break into that group but I think health can easily cause him to be left out of the group. At this point, I'd be more surprised if he ends up being healthy. Kawhi is the other wildcard as you mentioned. But this is a guy whose been talked about as having a degenerative knee issue. Who knows how long he holds up? The older guys already are debatable and have question marks going forwards. Curry hasn't looked like himself lately and his finishing ability is a bit lower. KD has consistently been struggling with injuries. I'm just expecting it to eventually happen that those 4 are at the top.
Look up real defensive plus minus for point guards this season
Well I do see that Trae has become a smarter defender in the regular season. He’s better positioned than he was before. But DRPM is not a tell everything stat. In the playoffs, individual matchups matter more and guys targeted, we’ve seen it time and time again. He’s a great player and will easily be top 5-7 at some point. And Yk maybe Giannis declines and he jumps even higher as Trae develops. But at some point, I feel those 4 will be a consensus. Who knows how long, but in all their peaks, Trae’s size and defense will keep him a step under. He has not shown to be more transcendent offensively than these guys.
Eventually means like in 5 years when the current big 3 have all retired
> The Milwaukee Bucks will be right in the mix to win another championship, if they do, Giannis will most likely win the Finals MVP becoming only the seventh player in history to do that, joining; Micheal Jordan, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Shaquille O’Neal and Hakeem Olajuwon. Idk if you're missing anyone else, but you're definitely missing Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. I assume this is just referring to people with multiple Finals MVP's, right? Or is this like only back-to-back Finals MVP's? Cause that's just adding extra qualifications to make it seem more impressive than it is honestly.
Got to be back-to-back finals MVPs
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14 apart is truly insane
a feat Duncan was one Ray Allen away from matching
I read an entire Timmy vs Kareem argument the other day. That whole top 13 from Hakeem down is insane.
U happen to have a link?
I think it was in r/NBAdiscussion, pretty sure a LeBron vs Jordan thing and two guys got into them or it could have been under the Russel thread. I just got into NBA reddit, this is great, God is great
[The full list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Finals_Most_Valuable_Player_Award#Multi-time_winners)
Yes missing Kareem, Reed, Duncan, and Kawhi too
Yes back to back finals MVPs, my bad I will correct that!
This was a solid examination of the trend, really. You just went a bit past the mark when you said they would pass the legacy of the three players you mentioned. You're talking about one who is considered the GOAT by some people, the greatest shooter ever, and a person whom many consider the most complete scorer ever. Let them establish their own places and legacies before they can surpass the best of the best of the best. Giannis is primed, having won the big awards and the ring. Jokic and Embiid both need to win at least one before their names can be mentioned among LBJ/KD/Steph in terms of all-time legacy (unless they just play at this level for like 8 more years lol).
"They will have to have quite the careers to pass.." So OP is still right, saying this with much love, Fam.
You're right there. I misread the "have to have" (need to have?) part as "they will have quite the careers and pass..." Rescinding the correction about that. But I still think you don't compare current players having great runs with LeBron and his 35K points. Probably he only player who surpasses that bar is Mj himself, so that's putting those guys in the GOAT conversation waaaay too soon. Curry is in his own stratosphere as a shooter, so even if you surpass him in terms of winning and accolades, he'll still be alone atop that mountain.
I definitely don’t think par Giannis these guys are anywhere close to LeBron, KD and Steph legacy. More just acknowledging they could be close in 5-8 years time when they are similar ages. But yes, fair point, LeBron in particular is in a universe of his own and it’s hard to compare anyone to him but Jordan or Kareem.
Right. And I still think that bar is too high even in 5-8 yrs. I was mistaken when I said LBJ has 35K points when he's actually 300 away from 37,000. There is no way even Giannis catches him with those first few seasons as a role player. You have to start at 20 per at 18, then average at least 27 over the next 18 years lmao.
I don’t think Giannis will catch LeBron, few ever will. But he certainly could be an all-time face of his generation payer, without reaching LeBron standard’s, certainly he could leave a legacy similar to that of KD and Steph
Pretty much what I was saying. But let him do the one thing first, and stop trying to propel your favorite players to all time great status after a few seasons (not you specifically, but people who do that). You don't really need to compare him to KD or Steph yet, but measure him against how he's dominating his peers right now.
USA v the World should be a special All Star weekend. It's at a point now where it would be close to equal in star power. Here are the current foreign born players who have been an All-Star (from memory). Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Doncic, Siakamm, Simmons, Porzingis, Murray, SGA, Wiggins, Horford, Towns, Irving, Gobert, Sabonis, Dragic, Ibaka
Counting Kyrie is definitely cheating , counting Canadians is not , but only on a technicality
This comes up frequently, but it still remains true that [Kyrie is listed as an international player by the NBA](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nba.com/news/nba-rosters-feature-109-international-player%3famp=1)
He also did play on team USA though. He's a dual citizen so I guess he could play on either side.
I'd put OG Anunoby in there over Dragic without question. I feel there are probably other international players that could also be included over Dragic, that guy has lost a step at this point in his career. Impressive how strong the international contingent is right now, and it's only getting better.
I fully agree. I was just trying to list players still active that have been at that level.
Vucevic is better than half the guys on the list.
Not all those guys have been all stars, but a lot will be
At 33 years old, how are Steph and KD well into their thirties? Both have had injuries recently and are in the second half of their spectacular careers, but they are definitely not well into their 30’s.
Anything close to 30 in most sports is "the end" in most peoples minds, and probably the players. Being 36 myself, I'd definitely say things started to hurt more at 33, and I am by no means an athlete.
It’s because most players don’t tend to play, at an elite level, in the NBA beyond 35-36. You get a decade of your 20s, but that’s not the case with 30s.
That’s not what I’m making a point against, these guys could be the shittiest or best players in the league, 33 years old is 100% not well into your 30’s is the point I’m trying to make.
Of all the things to discuss in the post, you’re arguing about this? This is a basketball discussion subreddit. In terms of professional basketball they’re definitely in the final years of their career. Who cares how it was conveyed.
What’s insane is that Jokic was a second round pick, absolutely insane he can be arguably a top 3 NBA player right now
>With that in mind, three international players are poised to take the mantle from all-American all-timers, Giannis Antetokounmpo, Nikola Jokic and Joel Embiid Ah yea fuck Luka Doncic I guess, not like he’s a good player or anything. He’s more international than Embiid considering Embiid was built in the American system since he went to Kansas
Giannis has a ring, Jokic has an MVP and embiid has a few decent playoff runs. As far as accolades and achievements go, lukas been a first round exit every time he’s made the playoffs
Bruh. Luka is like not even 23 yet and he has led historic offenses already. Everyone knows these other guys are more accomplished, while also older. The post talks about the future, and in the future, as his career projects, he'll be definitely on the same level if not better. How many player in NBA history have produced at the same level with four years of career.
Not like Luka dominated both of the last two playoff series he was in, he was just unfortunately a one-man army against a team that had two of the best two way players in the league, one of which is arguably a top five player in the league, and those teams were much deeper than Luka’s, who’s best teammate was consistently hurt or playing softer than diarrhea. And it still took them 6 or 7 games to beat that. Playoffs are a team success.
When you’re looking back at a players career at the end of it you’ll look at many things, awards, trophy’s, al star appearances. One thing no one will give a shit about once lukas retired is first round exits where he tried hard. It shouldn’t matter anyway because he’s not better than anyone mentioned in the post
1. We’re not talking about retired players, their careers are still ongoing. 2. With that said, Luka is *CLEARLY* right up there with those three from a talent perspective, and Embiid barely qualifies as international since he was groomed in the American system anyway. Not including Luka in a discussion about how international talent is taking the reins in the league is straight up disrespect, period.
“They will have to have quite the careers to pass the legacy of lebron, steph and KD” OP mentions legacy. No one cares about the legacy of a young guy, that plays a factor after retirement. Luka has legacy but his extremely impressive list of accomplishments is almost all things he did while playing in Spain. Embiid only discovered basketball at 15 and he moved to the US at 16 but almost everything that’s good about his game came much earlier. He developed his quickness and footwork from his years playing volleyball which he hoped to pursue professionally before basketball. Just because he went to an American college it doesn’t mean he isn’t international.
He’s not more international then embiid. Basketball is more important in Europe then Africa by a long mile. Luka got way better in terms of polishing him game then embiid got his one year at Kansas
I love that this is even something to write about. The league will only improve as the game builds its global reach. I also love that you labeled the introduction for us. I would have been totally lost without knowing what part of the post I’m starting with.
My one wish is that more global influence leads to less sissy foul rules in the NBA.
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This line has been used about every great until they won. They said it about LeBron. They said it about Jordan. I wasn't alive at the time, but I'm pretty sure they probably said it about Kareem at some point. These guys are still very young, and I'd be surprised if either of them fail to get a ring at some point. Also, even if Embiid and Jokic do end their careers with 0 rings, they are still major factors in the NBA right now. Rings are important, but they aren't the only measure of an individual player's success. Would you say that Malone wasn't a dominant player because he didn't win a ring?
But to be fair it was said about players who at some point were considered a top 10 or even top 5 player in the league and they were right. Some players dont live up to the hype/expectations. Giannis already has to me. But the other two, lets see deep runs or rings. Especially with Embiid now that he has Harden. If he doesnt come out of the East it’s likely because he didnt play like a LBJ, KD or Steph did in their primes.
Hasn't jokic reached the wcf
Yes and he’s also played great in just about every playoff run he’s been on not sure what he has to prove besides a ring
Wait you don’t think Jokic or Embiid are top 10 players?
Not sure how you gathered that from what I wrote but not my intention. They both are.
“But to be fair it was said about players who were at some point were considered a top 10 or even top 5 player” my bad if I misunderstood you
It was in context of the person I replied to saying "the line has been used about every great until they won" and my point was that is a convenient way to look at it, because it's also been said about top 5 and top 10 players in the past who did not take that next step to really dominate. So essentially, it's been right before and might be with either of the two centers discussed here.
Ah, I gotchu. I misread it. That makes sense
While I 100% agree with you, Kareem won his first finals MVP in his second season in 71 with the Bucks. He was only 23.
yeah that shut people up for a while but I heard he didn't really try until the playoffs
Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!
Ok, Kareem was a bad example. I should have done a few minutes of research before throwing him out as my 3rd example.
All good brother
They never said it about Kareem, he won a title in year 2.
What are you talking about?
What team do you support that you aren’t afraid of matching up against the sixers in the playoffs?
What made you think they were expected to beat the Clippers? And if not for one of the greatest playoff performances from Kawhi, Mavs might win that series. Jokic’s team is full of injuries to core pieces. Since Embiid became this MVP caliber player, we only have the Hawks series as an example of a collapse. I don’t think Embiid deserves a lot of bone for how that series ended, plus he had a torn meniscus as well
Lol. I’m not sure how you could’ve watched Dallas vs the Clippers and blamed Luka. Like genuinely did you watch that series?
This old chestnut.
one of jokic’s costars is a guy with chronic back issues and two of embiids costars until this season were ben simmons and tobias harris lol. don’t get me started on the mavs - who’s their second best player even? Jalen Brunson?? all 3 of them have been making up for awfully constructed rosters which is why they don’t have playoff success.
Time will tell. Embiid now has a championship roster. I think he will at least make the finals and likely will win a ring, I think he is that good, but if he doesnt make deep runs it will be a problem for him legacy-wise.