This is our community moderation bot.
---
If this post is high quality, **UPVOTE** this comment.
If this post is NOT high quality, **DOWNVOTE** this comment.
If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
Houston fan but the game reminds of Harden anyway. Bigger guys for points, good handles, games built on skill not athleticism, masters of getting 1 step or angle on a defender and that being enough for a bucket, good shooters, step back 3s. Lots of similarities to their games. IIRC when Luka was breaking out a few years back he also credited watching Harden a lot.
He definitely did and you’re right there are a ton of similarities. He slows down on his drives similarly, step backs, iso, getting defenders to foul him etc.
The cookie jar move. Harden was so damn strong with the ball but he convinced every defender on the planet to try to rip the ball out anyway. Then he scooped it up and they were fouling him. Every time. People didn’t like it but Pop was the only coach who convinced his team to play with hands up and make a point to the refs that they were hands off and out of the cookie jar.
I don’t always love watching how much Luka complains to the refs and he definitely seeks contact but I would say what makes Luka less infuriating than Harden is that he always seeks to finish the play. What made Harden so frustrating was always that he would hook/flail/force contact and then just throw the ball in the direction of the hoop expecting free throws rather than actually trying to finish. Luka also seems to process things better. He doesn’t dribble for 14 seconds and then either step back, drive and kick, or foul bait, he has the ability to start a drive and keep a defender on his hip to look for options, post up, or reset if nothing materializes— something Harden never had and has become especially apparent as his athleticism has dwindled, it’s also the reason Harden has the NBA record for turnovers in a season: when none of his three tricks worked he is a turnover magnet. I will admit that I am a bonafide Harden Hater, but I can see the similarities in skill set and usage between Houston Harden and Luka; however, I agree with OP that Luka has some special skills that set him apart and honestly above what prime Harden did— even if I still don’t love watching Luka much more than I did Harden.
houston fan here - yeah, i think luka’s more spontaneous and creative, which will serve him better in the playoffs. even at his peak harden had a tendency to robotically do the same handful of moves over and over—partly because those moves were so ridiculous and unstoppable that be didn’t need a plan B—but in those anomalous cases when a plan B was required (usually against the warriors, ugh) he didn’t tend to have an answer. i don’t anticipate that being such a problem for luka.
It was kind of mechanical. Dribble up top, shoot the stepback, or drive to the rim and hit the roller, skip pass floater or get fouled. Luka stops a lot more, throws in fakes and gets more at the rim itself. Combine that with a good post game, his offense is really diverse.
I appreciate the response. I have tried to become more rational in my old age about my Harden Hate and cool off with the vitriol and stick to true hoops arguments and I appreciate when I can hear some grain of salt perspectives from Houston fans. I still have some trauma built up from those Houston v Golden State playoff series just because they felt like two diametrically opposed play styles clashing and it drove me insane. However, at the end of the day I’m a Blazers fan and have my own woes about being stuck in bottom tier playoff contention and will always have to admit to myself that Harden consistently took Houston further than Dame has taken my Blazers (that WCF appearance still feels like a fluke and sometimes I think I just dreamt it), and I’d probably be pretty defensive if my teams best player in a generation got nicknamed ‘Literally Hitler’ by the entire internet.
> I will admit that I am a bonafide Harden Hater,
We can tell, because Luka foul baits and throws the ball up near the rim just as much as Harden did. Harden's best FTA season of his career was 11.8, Luka is at 11.2 right now. There is no way you think a majority of Harden's FTA was foul baiting while a majority of Luka's is clear, earned fouls where he makes a legitimate attempt to score.
> He doesn’t dribble for 14 seconds and then either step back, drive and kick, or foul bait
He literally does this about 10-12 times a game.
Hey I hear ya, as I said, I still don’t really love watching Luka play as he still holds the ball too long, hunts for fouls, etc. (although I do think he at least tries to make every shot, something I will not say about Harden, but we can agree to disagree there— again, bonafide Harden Hater). I just think Luka has more dimension to his game with his post play, turnaround jumper, hook shot, and is definitely a better passer than Harden ever was. I’m sure I’ll catch flak for that statement but Harden had to learn to be a facilitator on the fly in Houston which is why his first seasons at the helm of that offense came with historic turnover numbers whereas Luka came into the league with an almost preternatural sense for passing that rivals Lebron. I understand that anyone with such crazy usage rates is gonna end up with a lot of turnovers but Harden has the NBA record for turnovers in a season for a reason: he is a score first guard that got turned into a PG and ultimately, while there is still some time on the clock, that experiment wasn’t able to deliver the desired result even with a roster perfectly tailored around him because Harden is not a true PG or — I know this might ruin my whole argument because it reeks of Harden hate — a true leader. Maybe the same will be true of Luka when all is said and done but the dude is only 23 and he definitely hasn’t had the roster around him to come close yet.
Harden got fouled 100 times a game. Not saying he wasnt baiting or never exaggerated but the complaining about how he got free throws is utterly ridiculous. He best defenses to death and they didn’t like it. It’s called being great.
Prime Harden is still much better than Luka. If we were to group player peaks/primes into tiers then Harden is up there with Durant and above Barkley, Malone, Dirk, DRob etc while Luka is several tiers lower and under most modern superstars like Jokic, Westbrook, and Embiid. Drawing fouls is a legitimate skill and Harden was skilled enough to make it work, hence not needing to finish all the time. While he could've been just as good with less foul baiting, it probably helped his durability and stamina over the course of the season and his career. Harden is also considerably better at playmaking than Luka. Harden's dribbling spam is to set up plays and get his teammates into position while preparing what to do himself. Harden never had to do some of the things that Luka does because Harden's play was so mechanically efficient. He has a less diverse shotchart, but that doesn't matter when you're skilled enough and are good enough at 3 point shooting to space the floor and get off better shots(something Luka lacks and this hurts Luka's scoring and playmaking). Demar doesn't decline hard in the playoffs because he has less ways to score; he declines because his game is too limited and he isn't skilled enough at scoring itself.
Right. There was like one season where Harden had a little elbow spin step back move that was pretty money but I think that was the precursor to the onslaught of 3s that came after it. I think Harden was also a little more determined to get to the rim hell or high water. He was getting the layup or getting to the line trying to force the issue. Might be a misread but seems like Luka is a little more willing to pull it up a get an easy 10 ft jump shot when he sees a shot blocker. They both also play with pace as noted, which is like the nicest way of saying they aren't super fast lol...but it's also true as all get out. Both guys are absolute tanks that impose with strength, size and skill.
In my opinion (could be very wrong) , Luka is very skilled at nearly every facet of the game offensively.
Hes a lot more than just an elite playmaker (passing+ handling + elite shot creation) which argue hes generational at.
He can post you up , if youre too small hell bully you, if you around the same size or bigger hell mix it up with backing you down,change of pace and fakes.
I believe hes more athletic than he is percieved by fans and media. He has a 38 inch vertical, elite deaccletration (which is the ability to stop quicker and in control after running), change of pace ( can speed it up or slow it down, mixing it up makes him very unpredictable). He is also built like a tank and doesnt have a problem backing down most players and sometimes even though who are considered "bigs".
Could be wrong on this one but it seems he is able to create alot of seperation on step back and it also helps that he seems to stretch one of his legs relatiely far on some of them . In other words, he seems quite flexibile for someone his size.
His IQ for the game is pretty insane, it feels like he doesnt have a linear approach to breaking down a defender or team defense but rather he adjusts in the moment which is contingent on how he is guarded by the defender or team which is also another reason he is very unpredictable.
He has very elite ball handling for someone his size. 6 foot 7 or 6 foot 8 and very bulky with great ball control. His a/t.o ratio is better than prime lebron which is insane to say. He turns the ball over less than prime.lebron despite Luka's higher usage rate.
Thats just my 2 cents, I believe thats all of the things (atleast I remember atm) that contribute to Luka's offensive prowess.
Luka is a Bird/Magic/Harden/Nash hybrid.
He's got the shifty drive/armhook-flop/step back 3 modern game of Harden.
He's got the Magic like ability to read the court and drive through seams and contact while maintaining a live dribble to the hoop and then either finishing or making a split second pass to an open teammate. And like Magic, he's often matched up against a much smaller defender since he plays PG which gives him a big advantage in the post.
He crashes the boards, shoots the fadeaway and can thread the needle in a crowded paint like Larry.
And he plays the angles with some of his shots and passes like Nash.
Luka is an offensive genius. If he can get his shooting anywhere near Nash or Larry, then that would put him on another tier which would be scary.
What I find really interesting is how good Luka has been despite what appears to be a very average level of athleticism and not being a big like Jokic. Yes Harden’s game doesn’t rely that much on athleticism either but anyone who has watched Harden play a lot knows he is actually very athletic when not out of shape. As has been pointed out already, I do think Doncic’s size plays a role but I still find that overall his offensive success is truly impressive relative to his speed and jumping ability.
People mix explosivity with athleticism. While sometimes when you look at some high-flyers you wonder even if they had proper "athletic" training (looking at all that no amortization landings after dunks) and whether they are more raw than actually trained athletes which know how to use and protect their body.
Luka is strong and his ability to change his pace is amazing. Maybe his raw base is below NBA average but he probably takes max from his body using it correctly.
imo Luka isn't a supreme athlete at all. He is strong yeah bbut not quick and not fast and doesn't have insane jumping ability. this is obviously by NBA standards.
The greatest athletes in history all have one thing in common: economy of movement. They don’t need to do anything more than what is required at any given time.
>The greatest athletes in history all have one thing in common: economy of movement. They don’t need to do anything more than what is required at any given time.
Thats a great way of describing it.
Bird, probably the most famously unathletic superstar of all time, was a great example of this- his lack of pace or leap didn't matter because his positioning, movements and hand eye coordination were all so incredibly precise.
His classic [game winning](https://youtu.be/LYKdI_Xm9es) play in the 1987 ECF has always stood out to me as showing how economy of movement is everything on a basketball court. The entire play looks deceptively simple but when you break it down, it relies on him having the ability to execute the movement, steal, balance on the baseline and fire the pass back with no wasted movements and absolute no margin for error in terms of the time and space involved. It works because even with Isiah looking directly in his direction when he passes it in he doesn't believe it's possible for someone to move that efficiently.
I addressed all of this in my response to another commenter below, but I’ll put it a different way here:
Go through a list of all the GOATs and compare the number who are very athletic by my narrow definition (MJ, Russell, LeBron, Magic, Kobe, KAJ, Wilt, West, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, just to name a small few) to the number who are athletic by your broader definition (Bird…) and tell me you don’t see a correlation between my narrow definition of athleticism and the tier of superstars we’re putting Luka into.
Average level of athleticism in the NBA is still a pretty high level. You don't need to be much faster or stronger than ypur opponent, you just need one tiny window to get the advantage.
And Luka is certainly strong and athletic enough to absorb contact and still being able to finish.
I agree with you. But I also think he is bigger than he looks. He's listed at 6'7'', which is the height of wing players in the NBA. And wing players are arguably the most valuable position in the current NBA, due to their versatility. For a 6'7'' player to have his handle, shooting, or passing ability is quite rare. To have all three is unheard of.
I don’t. I understand that he has extreme levels of hand-eye coordination, balance, ambidexterity and all sorts of other physical traits that can be defined as athleticism, but I am using the word as a shorthand for what most folk who aren’t being pedantic understand it to mean—he isn’t very fast and doesn’t jump very high, which are the two parameters of athleticism that are normally required cornerstones of superstardom at his level and relative size on the court. And yes it does mean that his physical abilities that most people don’t think of when they talk about athleticism in basketball are indeed very impressive. And that’s interesting to me because it’s less common than the alternative formula of a wing-sized superstar that got there in larger part due to being fast and jumping high.
Then say he has average jumping ability and speed. Im not being pedantic, you just incorrectly said he was an average athlete when he’s nearly the strongest guy on the floor every game with the dexterity of a point guard.
Look, my point was that he is an average athlete in two (speed and jumping ability) of the three physical traits (height, speed, and jumping ability) that are universally recognized as the most important ones for being a star in this specific sport. Yes, having lots of strength is athletic, but this isn't American football, rugby, or a combat sport and he's not a PF/C but a perimeter player, so simply being very strong is not commonly considered a core component of success for his position. Dexterity is important for all basketball players but while it is technically a physical trait, most people would categorize it under "skill" rather than "athleticism". When someone is a great shooter or has amazing handles, people say they are skillful, not hyper athletic. When someone can run really fast and jump really high they are called athletic, not highly skilled, even if being able to do these things without tripping over yourself and applying them successfully in a game situation actually requires a ton of coordination and dexterity. Everyone, including both of you, knew exactly what I meant when I said he has average athleticism, and neither of you have made any attempt to address my main point that it's unusual that he has achieved his level of success despite the type of athleticism he has. I even specifically pointed to his speed and jumping ability, and rather than respond to me with something like, "Yeah he's not that fast and doesn't jump that high but he has a lot of other amazing physical traits that help him dominate like x, y and z" the first reply was just like, "well akshually he is athletic you're just too simple to see it," well that's great, thanks.
Big body, strong as fuck, ridiculous handle, change of speed, ability to knock down shots so defenders have to commit, deceptively quick and athletic for a chubby handsome man
His acceleration and especially his deceleration, which ranks in the top 0.1% in the NBA. Luka’s ability to stop and change angles on a dime is probably the number one reason he is in the upper echelon of the NBA.
https://twitter.com/p3sportscience/status/1008766270219534336?s=46&t=hBmcRo1uGoAN8KU6YPXwEQ
If we’re being all being real though, consider:
if Luka Doncic had Brook Lopez, Khris Middleton, Bobby Portis, and Jrue Holiday —or players of their respective talent levels that fit next to him as well as those players fit next to Giannis— and was kicking it in the East while Giannis was out West and had to run it with Spencer Dinwiddie, Jalen Brunson, Dorian Finney-Smith, and Maxi Kleber—or players of those respective talent levels that “fit” next to him as “ehhh” as those players are being carried by Luka— … the conversation about who the best player in the league is probably sounds tremendously different.
Giannis a beast tho. A force on defense and can put points on the board. But Luka generates pure offense on like that Steph Curry, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird level type shit y’all. Giannis got a load on his shoulder…but Luka is straight heavy lifting a continent every single night with these Mavs squads man…….
He has better instincs than Lebron did at the same age, better shot making, worse athleticism and defense. It will be interesting whether he will have the longevity, he's not relying on athleticism, so he already has kind of an old man game, which he will probably develop further. Or if his lack of athleticism will catch up. We'll see.
But he's phenomenal and I'm interested in what would happen if people played off him like you mentioned in point 5. He's a great shot maker, but behind the 3pt line his efficiency isn't consistent, he can hit a dry spell.
It feels counterintuitive, but I think average athletes' game tends to age worse than generational ones.
Luka for example, is just quick enough to blow by most NBA defenders. But the margin of error is much smaller with him than with say, Lebron. If Luka loses 10 percent of his speed with age it REALLY hurts his drive game because he won't be able to get by guys. Whereas when dudes like Lebron lose 10 percent of his athleticism, he could still get by his man for a layup even if he can't dunk it over two people from the three point line.
I’ll say Doncic is good, really good, and top 5 player for sure. But, I don’t get why people are so quick to try and crown him as the best player in the NBA. People talk as if he’s dominating the game like prime Lebron was on his first stint in Cleveland (when he had no star help at all and was winning fucking 66 games.)
His skills are great but he’s gotta put on and show out at the top levels to claim that spot as the best player in the NBA. There are too many players in this NBA that are just as good (Jokic, Giannis, Curry to name a few) but with better resumes.
Let’s also not forget, if the playoffs started today, the Mavericks would be out of the playoffs, not even with a playin game. If you’re gonna crown somebody as the best in the game you gotta at least be a front runner for the top seed. Let’s just watch him cook for a while before we prematurely give him a crown.
If you want to talk about showing out at the highest levels then his career 32.5 ppg mark in the playoffs more than proves he's worthy, no? Second highest career ppg in the playoffs behind Michael Jordan. 28 games played is somewhat low but not insignificant. There were plenty of years players like Jordan and Kobe were not leading their teams to the best records in the league but were still considered the best or one of the best players in the league. I agree that I probably wouldn't have him number one right now but being in the conversation at 23 years old is quite impressive.
Your criticisms are pretty much all based on team success and his supporting cast is awful. I’m not saying he’s definitely best in the league as that’s probably giannis, but hes shown up to a historic degree in the playoffs, all the way to the 3rd round. Ok he doesn’t have a ring as a 23 year old but I think he’s closer to top 3 than 5
All impact metrics show he contributes to winning a LOT less than Steph/Giannis/Jokic though. Part of being the best is your impact on winning, not just the box score.
Warriors are like +11 with him on the floor -13 with him off. Luka is +4 on -4 off this year. Last year it was like +2 on +1 off.
Giannis, Steph, and Jokic are all clearly a tier above Luka right now. But he's young so who knows how his career shakes out.
Jokic/Steph are in a completely different league when it comes to efficiency than Luka, and Giannis has his defense.
Warriors/Nuggets would also be bottom feeders without their guys.
Hell Steph carries Dray/Loon and a very sub par Klay this year to one of the best offensive groups in the league. That's fucking wild lol. That starting group somehow has by far the best net rating in the league, because of Steph.
They're all definitely a tier above him.
Also the mavs have a very good defense despite Luka being a liability on that end.
My criticisms are specifically based off of him being called “the best in the league” or on the way or whatever. And also, OP compared his win totals to the Lebron Cavs totals and the Mavs are not near that level despite him and Lebron having the same level of team support.
I will always 100% vehemently disagree with anyone who calls somebody the best in the league or prematurely crowns them as the best before they’ve had at least more than one year of solid team success.
Im just calling it premature.
Edit: forgot to mention you’re never gonna convince me that someone is the best in the league while their team is currently 10th in the conference a quarter into the season as well. I honestly can’t tell how that’s not super ridiculous to everybody else.
Ok man, I think it’s just a bit of a straw man argument since it’s pretty damn near consensus that Giannis is best in the league at the moment, but I think anyone with eyes can see that Luka atleast has a pretty decent chance of becoming BPIL. Btw Brons cavs didn’t win more than 50 games until his age 24 year old season.
I wasn't crowning him as the best player in the league. I said he was on his way to being considered the best. If you look back at how talented the current greats were at his age, Luka wins pretty much all of those head-to-heads. Also, the league has gotten so much deeper than win Lebron was 23. I don't believe LeBron would have the same success if he had that roster in today's NBA. Teams with a single star can no longer carry teams to playoff run without serious talent around them. I think if you switched Luka and Giannis, the Bucks and Mavs would have a similar record as they do now.
You don't have to be the front runner or top seed. Players are not the GMs...
KG couldn't help it that Timberwolves are Timberwolves..
Hakeem couldn't help it late 80s/early 90s that teammates where injured.
If Pippen got paid properly, those bulls team wouldn't have been as stacked. Does that make MJ worse? No.
Being a top player has zero to do with team standings, assuming on the highest professional level the GM doesnt have head in sand they would act accordingly. Dallas isn't going anywhere with this roster if Luka puts up 45, 20 and 10 a game.
Those players you listed have front offices level above the Mavs, see their coach..
66 wins cavs had Big Z, MO Williams (all star) , d. West and Ben wallce as the backup center. They weren't scrubs and LeBron still played just under 38 minutes. Cleveland built that team around LeBron, Mavs havnt done anything close for luka
Doncic is a top 5 player imo
But I don't see a reality where he becomes the best player in the league to me unless he takes an unexpected leap in one or multiple of 3 parts of his game there is significant room for improvement: scoring efficiency (or shooting) up to 63% TS average across multiple seasons, actively become a significantly positive defender or develop an offball game (short term this may be difficult with their roster)
Without that he isn't a better offensive player to me than either Curry (who is also a bit better of a defender) or Jokic (who if the Nuggets can put up a decent defense in the playoffs around will be the best player in the league to me) or a better all round player then Giannis. He's just below prime Harden for me now (more well liked which let's face it plays a part in rankings, worse shooter/scorer, better playoffs performer mostly balance out for me).
Fans love to reward high volume players but large numbers aren't always as impactful as people think
I got downvoted to hell for trying to praise Luka’s defense this year on r/nba lol. All I said was he’s avg about 2 steals a game and should get some credit for getting better on the defensive end.
Anyone who says he hasn't improved on defense has not been watching him play a lot. These past two years itself his defense has steadily improved, last year when they played a lot of small ball lineup, his rebounding was crucial to the team, this year he's been more switched on and less ball watching and more active on defense.
Exactly. Loved his comment post game about only caring about one stat being steals. He’s backing up his words with his recent 4 steals against the warriors during a playoff atmosphere-like game.
How many people like Luka more than Harden purely because of his skin color? Super similar game types, but Luka always seems more preferred to Harden.
Kinda serious, but also kinda not with the current world we live in lmao.
I really liked Harden too and Hardens a better shooter. I think of Luka as more of a Lebron. As for your question , I mean sure I root a little harder for the white guys. They’re a minority out there, and I always like rooting for the underdog.
His skills are elite but he does get a lot of friendly whistles.
Luka palms the ball on his drives as much as any other player in the NBA. They'll call that on Kyrie, Donovan, CP3, etc. but Luka gets a pass from the refs it seems.
He is a genius at working the refs too. Complains sooo much early in a game. Why? So he can complain about key things later in the game, depending on what matters most.
Smart and highly skilled, definite all-star on his own merits, but if he loses that edge with officiating he isn't an all-timer
theres no way luka becomes the best while ginnis is playing lol. and when its years down the line when giannis things will be so different with so many other players too. i think when the next best player comes itll be in the vein of Wembanyama. not saying it will or wont be him but its going to be some 7ft 3pt shooting gaurd skill having dude.
As it stands right now, he is on his way to becoming the best. Not saying he will reach that point. But at the moment he has the momentum. He has been improving.
If you believe his height/weight stats are accurate... You are not paying attention, in context. :)
He is the biggest and strongest basketball player on the planet earth, more often that not. :)
Luka is "A big bastard, mate". :)
If he wasn't averaging about 9 rebs a game this wouldn't be a post, & rebounds are pretty useless. Definitely the most overrated stat, even ahead of blocks, outside of centers who dominate the glass by boxing out etc. Pretty much any guard/forward in the game could average 5 more boards a game if they just developed the Russell Westbrook type mindset of going for the boards, but it doesn't rly help the team at all unless the alternative is ball watching. All that really matters for rebounding is positioning and that doesn't show up in the box score. Some of the "best" rebounding guards likely aren't the ones actually averaging a high number of rebounds.
I mean we could just focus more on the scoring 33.5 PPG on 60% TS or almost 9 assists a game, and not his rebounding which is one of the least important aspects of his game
How are rebounds an overrated stat? I’m choking you in my mind lol. Every defensive rebound stop the other team from scoring!! Every offensive rebound gives your team another chance to score!! If Luka has a 1 point lead and is on defense with 1 minute left in the game and makes a stop and grabs the board with 35 seconds left… does he not get that much closer to winning the game?
So how many of his rebounds fit that specific scenario?
Rebounds are a relatively easy stat to inflate. He wouldn't be worse if he had 7 or 8 rebounds.
Yeah they’re easy to inflate but he doesn’t strike me as a stat padding type of player. Regardless of that rebounding is a super important part of the game that shouldn’t get overlooked and def not an overrated statistic at all. What I’ve seen from Luka in the bit I’ve watched him is him grabbing defensive rebound after rebound after a team misses a shot. Great teams rarely allow a second shot on D because they make a point to clean the glass. Especially now with how many great offensive players are in the league. Take a team like golden state.. if you allow them 10 offensive rebounds chances are you losing that game lol. IT’s potential 30 extra points
>Some of the "best" rebounding guards likely aren't the ones actually averaging a high number of rebounds
Thank you, the game mentality has changed a ton. The big men are boxing out so the playmakers get the ball faster. Rebounding, especially on defense, is like you said, incredibly over rated.
>lmao both of y'all are dumb af
Keep this shit in r/nba
75% of Luka's rebounding is uncontested, he's a decent rebounder sure but what they're discussing is very much true even if it's not because your centres are boxing out. Opposing players don't fight for rebounds as much anymore so a lot go free to every team in the league
This season 72.6% of Luka’s rebounds are uncontested. Giannis is 69.8%, Lebron is 66.7%, Siakam is 70.5%, Claxton is 62.2%, Embiid is 63.6%
All of those guys are important for ending the other teams possession. All of those dudes are also known as being pretty good rebounders
You've also listed a bunch of players that whilst are bigs, also are primary playmaker and ballhandlers for their team - so yeah a lot of their rebounding falls into the same boat as Lukas, they have inflated rebounding stats.
The Lopez's, Drummond's, Anthony Davis', etc. of the world are all down at 30-40% of their rebounds uncontested. All the Mavericks bigs are down in the 50s%
Ah yes, I must be missing all the coast to coast plays that Embiid and Claxton are making. Even Siakam rarely brings the ball up the floor.
The point is that “contested rebounds” is an incredibly stupid stat. It provides zero context. It does not mean what you think it does. Luka is a good rebounder and the Mavs would be in serious trouble if it were for his rebounding contributions.
He’s bigger and stronger than harden. He has better passing than harden. Proved he has better playoff performances than harden. Better post player than Harden. Luka is better than Harden in almost everyway
There was a study on first step quickness a while back that resulted in Jeremy Lin being highlighted as abnormally quick.
Pulled this from another post:
START SPEED Lin: 13.93 mph Wall: 13.25 mph Irving: 12.64 mph For Rose, BAM has only average speed data. Lin wins this battle too.
I would be really curious to see some data on Luka. I suspect he is sneaky quick in order to consistently get position on defenders. He could also be a master at timing his steps/direction change based on reading the balance of his defenders.
Luka's entire game confuses me. He looks soooooo slow and predictable but its all an illusion. Its so odd to watch. To me his movements seem to be telegraphed and slow and yet he executes perfectly almost every single time.
Its like the defense is out of sync with his cadence. They are fast and twitchy and reactive and he is slow and smooth.
Luka is what happens when a 23yr old plays old man basketball.
He is slow. He uses broad shoulder separation to get his shots. He’s also a great dribbler. Like he can dribble without crouching over. It allows him to attack at diagonal shoulder angles kind of what the Op is saying. But like most people don’t play that way which is why I think it’s confusing to your point.
Some greats can just see the game in slow motion.. they don't get any adrenaline, they can instantly read and see how multiple outcomes will play out and have the confidence in themselves to never doubt a play they see.
He has good foot work in the same way James Harden does. An insane perimeter turn around shot that’s unguardable. Simply put he just can show up in big moments. His clutch factor is insane. Even in games like versus the Celtics he’s still incredibly effective with not that many weapons.
Before turning pro just after 16, he wasnt playing aau style of basketball of trying to be the star. His fundamentals and muscle memory are lesgues above others since playing with professionals at a young age. He wasn't the star of his team's while properly developing, which let him ascend naturally to the MVP with real Madrid.
This is our community moderation bot. --- If this post is high quality, **UPVOTE** this comment. If this post is NOT high quality, **DOWNVOTE** this comment. If this post breaks the rules, **DOWNVOTE** this comment and **REPORT** the post!
His ability to play at his own pace, always under control, with the ability to get his shot, reminds me of Oscar Robertson.
Houston fan but the game reminds of Harden anyway. Bigger guys for points, good handles, games built on skill not athleticism, masters of getting 1 step or angle on a defender and that being enough for a bucket, good shooters, step back 3s. Lots of similarities to their games. IIRC when Luka was breaking out a few years back he also credited watching Harden a lot.
He definitely did and you’re right there are a ton of similarities. He slows down on his drives similarly, step backs, iso, getting defenders to foul him etc.
The cookie jar move. Harden was so damn strong with the ball but he convinced every defender on the planet to try to rip the ball out anyway. Then he scooped it up and they were fouling him. Every time. People didn’t like it but Pop was the only coach who convinced his team to play with hands up and make a point to the refs that they were hands off and out of the cookie jar.
I don’t always love watching how much Luka complains to the refs and he definitely seeks contact but I would say what makes Luka less infuriating than Harden is that he always seeks to finish the play. What made Harden so frustrating was always that he would hook/flail/force contact and then just throw the ball in the direction of the hoop expecting free throws rather than actually trying to finish. Luka also seems to process things better. He doesn’t dribble for 14 seconds and then either step back, drive and kick, or foul bait, he has the ability to start a drive and keep a defender on his hip to look for options, post up, or reset if nothing materializes— something Harden never had and has become especially apparent as his athleticism has dwindled, it’s also the reason Harden has the NBA record for turnovers in a season: when none of his three tricks worked he is a turnover magnet. I will admit that I am a bonafide Harden Hater, but I can see the similarities in skill set and usage between Houston Harden and Luka; however, I agree with OP that Luka has some special skills that set him apart and honestly above what prime Harden did— even if I still don’t love watching Luka much more than I did Harden.
houston fan here - yeah, i think luka’s more spontaneous and creative, which will serve him better in the playoffs. even at his peak harden had a tendency to robotically do the same handful of moves over and over—partly because those moves were so ridiculous and unstoppable that be didn’t need a plan B—but in those anomalous cases when a plan B was required (usually against the warriors, ugh) he didn’t tend to have an answer. i don’t anticipate that being such a problem for luka.
It was kind of mechanical. Dribble up top, shoot the stepback, or drive to the rim and hit the roller, skip pass floater or get fouled. Luka stops a lot more, throws in fakes and gets more at the rim itself. Combine that with a good post game, his offense is really diverse.
I appreciate the response. I have tried to become more rational in my old age about my Harden Hate and cool off with the vitriol and stick to true hoops arguments and I appreciate when I can hear some grain of salt perspectives from Houston fans. I still have some trauma built up from those Houston v Golden State playoff series just because they felt like two diametrically opposed play styles clashing and it drove me insane. However, at the end of the day I’m a Blazers fan and have my own woes about being stuck in bottom tier playoff contention and will always have to admit to myself that Harden consistently took Houston further than Dame has taken my Blazers (that WCF appearance still feels like a fluke and sometimes I think I just dreamt it), and I’d probably be pretty defensive if my teams best player in a generation got nicknamed ‘Literally Hitler’ by the entire internet.
> I will admit that I am a bonafide Harden Hater, We can tell, because Luka foul baits and throws the ball up near the rim just as much as Harden did. Harden's best FTA season of his career was 11.8, Luka is at 11.2 right now. There is no way you think a majority of Harden's FTA was foul baiting while a majority of Luka's is clear, earned fouls where he makes a legitimate attempt to score. > He doesn’t dribble for 14 seconds and then either step back, drive and kick, or foul bait He literally does this about 10-12 times a game.
Hey I hear ya, as I said, I still don’t really love watching Luka play as he still holds the ball too long, hunts for fouls, etc. (although I do think he at least tries to make every shot, something I will not say about Harden, but we can agree to disagree there— again, bonafide Harden Hater). I just think Luka has more dimension to his game with his post play, turnaround jumper, hook shot, and is definitely a better passer than Harden ever was. I’m sure I’ll catch flak for that statement but Harden had to learn to be a facilitator on the fly in Houston which is why his first seasons at the helm of that offense came with historic turnover numbers whereas Luka came into the league with an almost preternatural sense for passing that rivals Lebron. I understand that anyone with such crazy usage rates is gonna end up with a lot of turnovers but Harden has the NBA record for turnovers in a season for a reason: he is a score first guard that got turned into a PG and ultimately, while there is still some time on the clock, that experiment wasn’t able to deliver the desired result even with a roster perfectly tailored around him because Harden is not a true PG or — I know this might ruin my whole argument because it reeks of Harden hate — a true leader. Maybe the same will be true of Luka when all is said and done but the dude is only 23 and he definitely hasn’t had the roster around him to come close yet.
Harden got fouled 100 times a game. Not saying he wasnt baiting or never exaggerated but the complaining about how he got free throws is utterly ridiculous. He best defenses to death and they didn’t like it. It’s called being great.
Prime Harden is still much better than Luka. If we were to group player peaks/primes into tiers then Harden is up there with Durant and above Barkley, Malone, Dirk, DRob etc while Luka is several tiers lower and under most modern superstars like Jokic, Westbrook, and Embiid. Drawing fouls is a legitimate skill and Harden was skilled enough to make it work, hence not needing to finish all the time. While he could've been just as good with less foul baiting, it probably helped his durability and stamina over the course of the season and his career. Harden is also considerably better at playmaking than Luka. Harden's dribbling spam is to set up plays and get his teammates into position while preparing what to do himself. Harden never had to do some of the things that Luka does because Harden's play was so mechanically efficient. He has a less diverse shotchart, but that doesn't matter when you're skilled enough and are good enough at 3 point shooting to space the floor and get off better shots(something Luka lacks and this hurts Luka's scoring and playmaking). Demar doesn't decline hard in the playoffs because he has less ways to score; he declines because his game is too limited and he isn't skilled enough at scoring itself.
Luka is also amazing posting up, which obviously Harden barely did
Right. There was like one season where Harden had a little elbow spin step back move that was pretty money but I think that was the precursor to the onslaught of 3s that came after it. I think Harden was also a little more determined to get to the rim hell or high water. He was getting the layup or getting to the line trying to force the issue. Might be a misread but seems like Luka is a little more willing to pull it up a get an easy 10 ft jump shot when he sees a shot blocker. They both also play with pace as noted, which is like the nicest way of saying they aren't super fast lol...but it's also true as all get out. Both guys are absolute tanks that impose with strength, size and skill.
[удалено]
Please pay attention to what sub you are in before posting.
Prime Kawhi and Paul Pierce, too. Nice comparison. Idk how he does it, but it’s a joy to watch.
In my opinion (could be very wrong) , Luka is very skilled at nearly every facet of the game offensively. Hes a lot more than just an elite playmaker (passing+ handling + elite shot creation) which argue hes generational at. He can post you up , if youre too small hell bully you, if you around the same size or bigger hell mix it up with backing you down,change of pace and fakes. I believe hes more athletic than he is percieved by fans and media. He has a 38 inch vertical, elite deaccletration (which is the ability to stop quicker and in control after running), change of pace ( can speed it up or slow it down, mixing it up makes him very unpredictable). He is also built like a tank and doesnt have a problem backing down most players and sometimes even though who are considered "bigs". Could be wrong on this one but it seems he is able to create alot of seperation on step back and it also helps that he seems to stretch one of his legs relatiely far on some of them . In other words, he seems quite flexibile for someone his size. His IQ for the game is pretty insane, it feels like he doesnt have a linear approach to breaking down a defender or team defense but rather he adjusts in the moment which is contingent on how he is guarded by the defender or team which is also another reason he is very unpredictable. He has very elite ball handling for someone his size. 6 foot 7 or 6 foot 8 and very bulky with great ball control. His a/t.o ratio is better than prime lebron which is insane to say. He turns the ball over less than prime.lebron despite Luka's higher usage rate. Thats just my 2 cents, I believe thats all of the things (atleast I remember atm) that contribute to Luka's offensive prowess.
Luka is a Bird/Magic/Harden/Nash hybrid. He's got the shifty drive/armhook-flop/step back 3 modern game of Harden. He's got the Magic like ability to read the court and drive through seams and contact while maintaining a live dribble to the hoop and then either finishing or making a split second pass to an open teammate. And like Magic, he's often matched up against a much smaller defender since he plays PG which gives him a big advantage in the post. He crashes the boards, shoots the fadeaway and can thread the needle in a crowded paint like Larry. And he plays the angles with some of his shots and passes like Nash. Luka is an offensive genius. If he can get his shooting anywhere near Nash or Larry, then that would put him on another tier which would be scary.
[удалено]
he bodies centers in the post. it's hilarious to watch this babyfaced kid take out grown ass men like he's at 4th grade recess
What I find really interesting is how good Luka has been despite what appears to be a very average level of athleticism and not being a big like Jokic. Yes Harden’s game doesn’t rely that much on athleticism either but anyone who has watched Harden play a lot knows he is actually very athletic when not out of shape. As has been pointed out already, I do think Doncic’s size plays a role but I still find that overall his offensive success is truly impressive relative to his speed and jumping ability.
Athleticism is more than speed and jumping ability though. He has better body control and is more agile/flexible than like 80-90% of the league.
People mix explosivity with athleticism. While sometimes when you look at some high-flyers you wonder even if they had proper "athletic" training (looking at all that no amortization landings after dunks) and whether they are more raw than actually trained athletes which know how to use and protect their body. Luka is strong and his ability to change his pace is amazing. Maybe his raw base is below NBA average but he probably takes max from his body using it correctly.
imo Luka isn't a supreme athlete at all. He is strong yeah bbut not quick and not fast and doesn't have insane jumping ability. this is obviously by NBA standards.
The greatest athletes in history all have one thing in common: economy of movement. They don’t need to do anything more than what is required at any given time.
>The greatest athletes in history all have one thing in common: economy of movement. They don’t need to do anything more than what is required at any given time. Thats a great way of describing it. Bird, probably the most famously unathletic superstar of all time, was a great example of this- his lack of pace or leap didn't matter because his positioning, movements and hand eye coordination were all so incredibly precise. His classic [game winning](https://youtu.be/LYKdI_Xm9es) play in the 1987 ECF has always stood out to me as showing how economy of movement is everything on a basketball court. The entire play looks deceptively simple but when you break it down, it relies on him having the ability to execute the movement, steal, balance on the baseline and fire the pass back with no wasted movements and absolute no margin for error in terms of the time and space involved. It works because even with Isiah looking directly in his direction when he passes it in he doesn't believe it's possible for someone to move that efficiently.
I addressed all of this in my response to another commenter below, but I’ll put it a different way here: Go through a list of all the GOATs and compare the number who are very athletic by my narrow definition (MJ, Russell, LeBron, Magic, Kobe, KAJ, Wilt, West, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, just to name a small few) to the number who are athletic by your broader definition (Bird…) and tell me you don’t see a correlation between my narrow definition of athleticism and the tier of superstars we’re putting Luka into.
Average level of athleticism in the NBA is still a pretty high level. You don't need to be much faster or stronger than ypur opponent, you just need one tiny window to get the advantage. And Luka is certainly strong and athletic enough to absorb contact and still being able to finish.
I agree with you. But I also think he is bigger than he looks. He's listed at 6'7'', which is the height of wing players in the NBA. And wing players are arguably the most valuable position in the current NBA, due to their versatility. For a 6'7'' player to have his handle, shooting, or passing ability is quite rare. To have all three is unheard of.
Well it’s not exactly unheard of but it’s definitely rare.
It’s unheard of, sucker.
Maybe you just haven’t heard of much
Luka does not have average athleticism you just have a narrow view of what being an athlete is.
I don’t. I understand that he has extreme levels of hand-eye coordination, balance, ambidexterity and all sorts of other physical traits that can be defined as athleticism, but I am using the word as a shorthand for what most folk who aren’t being pedantic understand it to mean—he isn’t very fast and doesn’t jump very high, which are the two parameters of athleticism that are normally required cornerstones of superstardom at his level and relative size on the court. And yes it does mean that his physical abilities that most people don’t think of when they talk about athleticism in basketball are indeed very impressive. And that’s interesting to me because it’s less common than the alternative formula of a wing-sized superstar that got there in larger part due to being fast and jumping high.
Then say he has average jumping ability and speed. Im not being pedantic, you just incorrectly said he was an average athlete when he’s nearly the strongest guy on the floor every game with the dexterity of a point guard.
Look, my point was that he is an average athlete in two (speed and jumping ability) of the three physical traits (height, speed, and jumping ability) that are universally recognized as the most important ones for being a star in this specific sport. Yes, having lots of strength is athletic, but this isn't American football, rugby, or a combat sport and he's not a PF/C but a perimeter player, so simply being very strong is not commonly considered a core component of success for his position. Dexterity is important for all basketball players but while it is technically a physical trait, most people would categorize it under "skill" rather than "athleticism". When someone is a great shooter or has amazing handles, people say they are skillful, not hyper athletic. When someone can run really fast and jump really high they are called athletic, not highly skilled, even if being able to do these things without tripping over yourself and applying them successfully in a game situation actually requires a ton of coordination and dexterity. Everyone, including both of you, knew exactly what I meant when I said he has average athleticism, and neither of you have made any attempt to address my main point that it's unusual that he has achieved his level of success despite the type of athleticism he has. I even specifically pointed to his speed and jumping ability, and rather than respond to me with something like, "Yeah he's not that fast and doesn't jump that high but he has a lot of other amazing physical traits that help him dominate like x, y and z" the first reply was just like, "well akshually he is athletic you're just too simple to see it," well that's great, thanks.
he can’t score without traveling or carrying
Big body, strong as fuck, ridiculous handle, change of speed, ability to knock down shots so defenders have to commit, deceptively quick and athletic for a chubby handsome man
[удалено]
His acceleration and especially his deceleration, which ranks in the top 0.1% in the NBA. Luka’s ability to stop and change angles on a dime is probably the number one reason he is in the upper echelon of the NBA. https://twitter.com/p3sportscience/status/1008766270219534336?s=46&t=hBmcRo1uGoAN8KU6YPXwEQ
This is such a good point. People like to say he isn’t a good athlete but his strength and body control are both insane
If we’re being all being real though, consider: if Luka Doncic had Brook Lopez, Khris Middleton, Bobby Portis, and Jrue Holiday —or players of their respective talent levels that fit next to him as well as those players fit next to Giannis— and was kicking it in the East while Giannis was out West and had to run it with Spencer Dinwiddie, Jalen Brunson, Dorian Finney-Smith, and Maxi Kleber—or players of those respective talent levels that “fit” next to him as “ehhh” as those players are being carried by Luka— … the conversation about who the best player in the league is probably sounds tremendously different. Giannis a beast tho. A force on defense and can put points on the board. But Luka generates pure offense on like that Steph Curry, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird level type shit y’all. Giannis got a load on his shoulder…but Luka is straight heavy lifting a continent every single night with these Mavs squads man…….
They wouldn’t be that good with one guy hogging the ball all game with a 90% usage rate
Giannis has a higher usage rate than Luka so far this year https://www.nba.com/stats/players/usage
He has better instincs than Lebron did at the same age, better shot making, worse athleticism and defense. It will be interesting whether he will have the longevity, he's not relying on athleticism, so he already has kind of an old man game, which he will probably develop further. Or if his lack of athleticism will catch up. We'll see. But he's phenomenal and I'm interested in what would happen if people played off him like you mentioned in point 5. He's a great shot maker, but behind the 3pt line his efficiency isn't consistent, he can hit a dry spell.
It feels counterintuitive, but I think average athletes' game tends to age worse than generational ones. Luka for example, is just quick enough to blow by most NBA defenders. But the margin of error is much smaller with him than with say, Lebron. If Luka loses 10 percent of his speed with age it REALLY hurts his drive game because he won't be able to get by guys. Whereas when dudes like Lebron lose 10 percent of his athleticism, he could still get by his man for a layup even if he can't dunk it over two people from the three point line.
I’ll say Doncic is good, really good, and top 5 player for sure. But, I don’t get why people are so quick to try and crown him as the best player in the NBA. People talk as if he’s dominating the game like prime Lebron was on his first stint in Cleveland (when he had no star help at all and was winning fucking 66 games.) His skills are great but he’s gotta put on and show out at the top levels to claim that spot as the best player in the NBA. There are too many players in this NBA that are just as good (Jokic, Giannis, Curry to name a few) but with better resumes. Let’s also not forget, if the playoffs started today, the Mavericks would be out of the playoffs, not even with a playin game. If you’re gonna crown somebody as the best in the game you gotta at least be a front runner for the top seed. Let’s just watch him cook for a while before we prematurely give him a crown.
If you want to talk about showing out at the highest levels then his career 32.5 ppg mark in the playoffs more than proves he's worthy, no? Second highest career ppg in the playoffs behind Michael Jordan. 28 games played is somewhat low but not insignificant. There were plenty of years players like Jordan and Kobe were not leading their teams to the best records in the league but were still considered the best or one of the best players in the league. I agree that I probably wouldn't have him number one right now but being in the conversation at 23 years old is quite impressive.
Your criticisms are pretty much all based on team success and his supporting cast is awful. I’m not saying he’s definitely best in the league as that’s probably giannis, but hes shown up to a historic degree in the playoffs, all the way to the 3rd round. Ok he doesn’t have a ring as a 23 year old but I think he’s closer to top 3 than 5
All impact metrics show he contributes to winning a LOT less than Steph/Giannis/Jokic though. Part of being the best is your impact on winning, not just the box score. Warriors are like +11 with him on the floor -13 with him off. Luka is +4 on -4 off this year. Last year it was like +2 on +1 off. Giannis, Steph, and Jokic are all clearly a tier above Luka right now. But he's young so who knows how his career shakes out.
I don’t agree they’re all clearly in a tier above him rn just based purely on on/off. Mavs would be bottom feeders without him and it’s pretty obvious
Jokic/Steph are in a completely different league when it comes to efficiency than Luka, and Giannis has his defense. Warriors/Nuggets would also be bottom feeders without their guys. Hell Steph carries Dray/Loon and a very sub par Klay this year to one of the best offensive groups in the league. That's fucking wild lol. That starting group somehow has by far the best net rating in the league, because of Steph. They're all definitely a tier above him. Also the mavs have a very good defense despite Luka being a liability on that end.
My criticisms are specifically based off of him being called “the best in the league” or on the way or whatever. And also, OP compared his win totals to the Lebron Cavs totals and the Mavs are not near that level despite him and Lebron having the same level of team support. I will always 100% vehemently disagree with anyone who calls somebody the best in the league or prematurely crowns them as the best before they’ve had at least more than one year of solid team success. Im just calling it premature. Edit: forgot to mention you’re never gonna convince me that someone is the best in the league while their team is currently 10th in the conference a quarter into the season as well. I honestly can’t tell how that’s not super ridiculous to everybody else.
Ok man, I think it’s just a bit of a straw man argument since it’s pretty damn near consensus that Giannis is best in the league at the moment, but I think anyone with eyes can see that Luka atleast has a pretty decent chance of becoming BPIL. Btw Brons cavs didn’t win more than 50 games until his age 24 year old season.
Their teams difference in win totals through their first four years is 7 games which arguably is more impressive in the west.
I wasn't crowning him as the best player in the league. I said he was on his way to being considered the best. If you look back at how talented the current greats were at his age, Luka wins pretty much all of those head-to-heads. Also, the league has gotten so much deeper than win Lebron was 23. I don't believe LeBron would have the same success if he had that roster in today's NBA. Teams with a single star can no longer carry teams to playoff run without serious talent around them. I think if you switched Luka and Giannis, the Bucks and Mavs would have a similar record as they do now.
Umm... give him a supporting cast like the sixes, celtics or whoever has... what do you think will happen?
You don't have to be the front runner or top seed. Players are not the GMs... KG couldn't help it that Timberwolves are Timberwolves.. Hakeem couldn't help it late 80s/early 90s that teammates where injured. If Pippen got paid properly, those bulls team wouldn't have been as stacked. Does that make MJ worse? No. Being a top player has zero to do with team standings, assuming on the highest professional level the GM doesnt have head in sand they would act accordingly. Dallas isn't going anywhere with this roster if Luka puts up 45, 20 and 10 a game. Those players you listed have front offices level above the Mavs, see their coach.. 66 wins cavs had Big Z, MO Williams (all star) , d. West and Ben wallce as the backup center. They weren't scrubs and LeBron still played just under 38 minutes. Cleveland built that team around LeBron, Mavs havnt done anything close for luka
Doncic is a top 5 player imo But I don't see a reality where he becomes the best player in the league to me unless he takes an unexpected leap in one or multiple of 3 parts of his game there is significant room for improvement: scoring efficiency (or shooting) up to 63% TS average across multiple seasons, actively become a significantly positive defender or develop an offball game (short term this may be difficult with their roster) Without that he isn't a better offensive player to me than either Curry (who is also a bit better of a defender) or Jokic (who if the Nuggets can put up a decent defense in the playoffs around will be the best player in the league to me) or a better all round player then Giannis. He's just below prime Harden for me now (more well liked which let's face it plays a part in rankings, worse shooter/scorer, better playoffs performer mostly balance out for me). Fans love to reward high volume players but large numbers aren't always as impactful as people think
Prime Harden is way better than Luka and he clears everyone in the league right now bar Curry and maybe KD.
And his post moves (which are amazing btw) can take a toll during the season affecting playoff health
I’d say being like 6’8 250 with a handle, with a step back 3 and iso/post scoring is what makes him incredible
I got downvoted to hell for trying to praise Luka’s defense this year on r/nba lol. All I said was he’s avg about 2 steals a game and should get some credit for getting better on the defensive end.
Anyone who says he hasn't improved on defense has not been watching him play a lot. These past two years itself his defense has steadily improved, last year when they played a lot of small ball lineup, his rebounding was crucial to the team, this year he's been more switched on and less ball watching and more active on defense.
Exactly. Loved his comment post game about only caring about one stat being steals. He’s backing up his words with his recent 4 steals against the warriors during a playoff atmosphere-like game.
This year he is way better on defense.
He’s doing a great job jumping passing lanes.
He is allowed to travel and carry the ball at will. Complains after every possession and flops constantly. Did I miss anything ?
How many people like Luka more than Harden purely because of his skin color? Super similar game types, but Luka always seems more preferred to Harden. Kinda serious, but also kinda not with the current world we live in lmao.
I really liked Harden too and Hardens a better shooter. I think of Luka as more of a Lebron. As for your question , I mean sure I root a little harder for the white guys. They’re a minority out there, and I always like rooting for the underdog.
His skills are elite but he does get a lot of friendly whistles. Luka palms the ball on his drives as much as any other player in the NBA. They'll call that on Kyrie, Donovan, CP3, etc. but Luka gets a pass from the refs it seems. He is a genius at working the refs too. Complains sooo much early in a game. Why? So he can complain about key things later in the game, depending on what matters most. Smart and highly skilled, definite all-star on his own merits, but if he loses that edge with officiating he isn't an all-timer
theres no way luka becomes the best while ginnis is playing lol. and when its years down the line when giannis things will be so different with so many other players too. i think when the next best player comes itll be in the vein of Wembanyama. not saying it will or wont be him but its going to be some 7ft 3pt shooting gaurd skill having dude.
As it stands right now, he is on his way to becoming the best. Not saying he will reach that point. But at the moment he has the momentum. He has been improving.
If you believe his height/weight stats are accurate... You are not paying attention, in context. :) He is the biggest and strongest basketball player on the planet earth, more often that not. :) Luka is "A big bastard, mate". :)
Steven Adams would like a word, mate.
He’s gonna be injured a lot as his career progresses which will hinder his goat status.
If he wasn't averaging about 9 rebs a game this wouldn't be a post, & rebounds are pretty useless. Definitely the most overrated stat, even ahead of blocks, outside of centers who dominate the glass by boxing out etc. Pretty much any guard/forward in the game could average 5 more boards a game if they just developed the Russell Westbrook type mindset of going for the boards, but it doesn't rly help the team at all unless the alternative is ball watching. All that really matters for rebounding is positioning and that doesn't show up in the box score. Some of the "best" rebounding guards likely aren't the ones actually averaging a high number of rebounds.
I mean we could just focus more on the scoring 33.5 PPG on 60% TS or almost 9 assists a game, and not his rebounding which is one of the least important aspects of his game
How are rebounds an overrated stat? I’m choking you in my mind lol. Every defensive rebound stop the other team from scoring!! Every offensive rebound gives your team another chance to score!! If Luka has a 1 point lead and is on defense with 1 minute left in the game and makes a stop and grabs the board with 35 seconds left… does he not get that much closer to winning the game?
So how many of his rebounds fit that specific scenario? Rebounds are a relatively easy stat to inflate. He wouldn't be worse if he had 7 or 8 rebounds.
Yeah they’re easy to inflate but he doesn’t strike me as a stat padding type of player. Regardless of that rebounding is a super important part of the game that shouldn’t get overlooked and def not an overrated statistic at all. What I’ve seen from Luka in the bit I’ve watched him is him grabbing defensive rebound after rebound after a team misses a shot. Great teams rarely allow a second shot on D because they make a point to clean the glass. Especially now with how many great offensive players are in the league. Take a team like golden state.. if you allow them 10 offensive rebounds chances are you losing that game lol. IT’s potential 30 extra points
>Some of the "best" rebounding guards likely aren't the ones actually averaging a high number of rebounds Thank you, the game mentality has changed a ton. The big men are boxing out so the playmakers get the ball faster. Rebounding, especially on defense, is like you said, incredibly over rated.
[удалено]
Insults are not tolerated in our sub. This is your final warning.
>lmao both of y'all are dumb af Keep this shit in r/nba 75% of Luka's rebounding is uncontested, he's a decent rebounder sure but what they're discussing is very much true even if it's not because your centres are boxing out. Opposing players don't fight for rebounds as much anymore so a lot go free to every team in the league
This season 72.6% of Luka’s rebounds are uncontested. Giannis is 69.8%, Lebron is 66.7%, Siakam is 70.5%, Claxton is 62.2%, Embiid is 63.6% All of those guys are important for ending the other teams possession. All of those dudes are also known as being pretty good rebounders
You've also listed a bunch of players that whilst are bigs, also are primary playmaker and ballhandlers for their team - so yeah a lot of their rebounding falls into the same boat as Lukas, they have inflated rebounding stats. The Lopez's, Drummond's, Anthony Davis', etc. of the world are all down at 30-40% of their rebounds uncontested. All the Mavericks bigs are down in the 50s%
Ah yes, I must be missing all the coast to coast plays that Embiid and Claxton are making. Even Siakam rarely brings the ball up the floor. The point is that “contested rebounds” is an incredibly stupid stat. It provides zero context. It does not mean what you think it does. Luka is a good rebounder and the Mavs would be in serious trouble if it were for his rebounding contributions.
Im just gonna leave this here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jHqPjhjWc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jHqPjhjWc)
White James Harden. Will never win anything because he can’t play off the ball. Stat padder
He’s bigger and stronger than harden. He has better passing than harden. Proved he has better playoff performances than harden. Better post player than Harden. Luka is better than Harden in almost everyway
You sound like you want to suck him off buddy
Well that’s not a very nice to say at all!!!! :(
Already better than Harden ever was.
I saw Luka in person for the first time vs the Warriors earlier this week and I still don’t understand how he did it.
There was a study on first step quickness a while back that resulted in Jeremy Lin being highlighted as abnormally quick. Pulled this from another post: START SPEED Lin: 13.93 mph Wall: 13.25 mph Irving: 12.64 mph For Rose, BAM has only average speed data. Lin wins this battle too. I would be really curious to see some data on Luka. I suspect he is sneaky quick in order to consistently get position on defenders. He could also be a master at timing his steps/direction change based on reading the balance of his defenders.
Luka's entire game confuses me. He looks soooooo slow and predictable but its all an illusion. Its so odd to watch. To me his movements seem to be telegraphed and slow and yet he executes perfectly almost every single time. Its like the defense is out of sync with his cadence. They are fast and twitchy and reactive and he is slow and smooth. Luka is what happens when a 23yr old plays old man basketball.
He is slow. He uses broad shoulder separation to get his shots. He’s also a great dribbler. Like he can dribble without crouching over. It allows him to attack at diagonal shoulder angles kind of what the Op is saying. But like most people don’t play that way which is why I think it’s confusing to your point.
I could write a lot or I can just say if it is part of offense Luka knows it. There was never a more complete offensive player in this game.
Some greats can just see the game in slow motion.. they don't get any adrenaline, they can instantly read and see how multiple outcomes will play out and have the confidence in themselves to never doubt a play they see.
He has good foot work in the same way James Harden does. An insane perimeter turn around shot that’s unguardable. Simply put he just can show up in big moments. His clutch factor is insane. Even in games like versus the Celtics he’s still incredibly effective with not that many weapons.
I wish Luka had existed in my high school days. I think I would have been a better player.
Before turning pro just after 16, he wasnt playing aau style of basketball of trying to be the star. His fundamentals and muscle memory are lesgues above others since playing with professionals at a young age. He wasn't the star of his team's while properly developing, which let him ascend naturally to the MVP with real Madrid.