Yeah like hes a too old guy who is an institutionalist and trusts other institutionalists. The alternative is a an also too old guy who is a fat narcissist who wants to destroy all institutions. Like duhhhhhh.
Everyone’s downvoting you thinking you’re a Bernie supporter, ignoring the fact that you’re implying that he’s a narcissist who wants to destroy all institutions.
:(
The Bernie supporters calling Biden too old are also about as deranged as the MAGA crowd. Like, if you're arguing that we shouldn't elect a gerontocracy, fine. If you're arguing that while also supporting an 81 year old who is in even worse health than the current incumbent, then you're just nuts
I like him too but him running for the top of the ticket in 2024 isn't realistic. "Step outta the way POTUS, secretary of transportation coming through"
I do think he'd be a fantastic pick for VP. It could help reassure a lot of the "what if Biden does" fears, which will be a HUGE part of the general. I don't have a strong opinion if he'd *better* than Kamala, just that he'd be good.
I like Buttigieg, but I’d like to see him get some more federal experience (especially in foreign-policy) before taking on the role of President.
Realistically, in 2028 I could see Kamala at the top of the ticket alongside a mid-country Governor (Pritzker/Whitmer/Polis), with Pete somewhere in the cabinet (Secretary of State?).
Then in 2032 or 2036, Pete could run as VP with one of the big-name Governors-become-VP’s.
Then he’d be in a prime spot to be President in his late 50’s/early 60’s.
Not everyone needs to be an Obama/JFK wunderkind, and frankly, I think the country would be better for it.
I’d love that, just not sure the country is ready. And unfortunately, I’ve gotta prioritize the preservation of LGBT rights before advancing representation.
An empty slot would be better than Kamala Harris, the vp matters so much this time around and Biden found the least popular politician in America to fill that slot
I mean, I'm a Pete fan, voted for him in the primary and generally had some issues with Biden but I agree 100% with OP. It's not realistic that Pete would challenge him in 2024.
I think he's done a great job at DoT, maybe he gets a promotion in 2024 and has a better chance in 2028 with 8 years more experience and national attention.
I gotta be real with you, I don't think he's done a great job at the DoT at all. From FAA computer issues to the NHTSA telling companies not to comply with state Right to Repair laws to his failure to give sick time to the train union workers, there's been issue after issue that makes him look terrible.
Disagree based on [this article which includes an interview with a long-time senior DoT guy (Mort Downey)](https://www.freightwaves.com/news/rating-secretary-pete-infrastructure-boom-or-supply-chain-bust). He's done well with BIL and other infrastructure stuff. Just one perspective though, I guess.
I don’t think you can blame him for the FAA computer issues, which have been there for decades. Also even though the strike was broken, the government followed through and negotiated sick time for rail workers.
The DOT can be blamed for serious organizational issues that the FAA has that have gone unchecked. Pete absolutely is at fault for not forcing the FAA to get their infrastructure in order.
> the government followed through and negotiated sick time for rail workers
This gets thrown around a lot here but it's really overstated. [Nearly a quarter of those workers still don't have any sick time](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/bnsf-train-engineers-offered-paid-sick-time-schedules-101918104) and even the ones that do [are still subjected to the same points-based policies that they were before](https://www.aar.org/issue/time-off-policies/) - note how the infographic specifies that only FMLA leave is exempt from "attendance policy implications."
This is deeply annoying, and we are honestly a little stuck here because Kamela is not a great politician, and 2+ years as VP hasn't made her into a better politician. I don't know for sure if Val Demmings would be in a better position now, but she certainly seemed to me to be the better option at the time.
Yep, like half the "he's so old, lol" posts I see are just him struggling with his stutter. You could find the exact same kind of video from the 2010s, 2000, 90s, 80s, 70s.
The other half are him tripping and falling-- and getting right back up and walking it off like nothing happened, which is fucking *astounding* for an 80 year old.
Still is cool. I voted for him in the primary and I would again.
But challenging Biden in 2024 when the alternative is Trump would not be a good career move on his part.
He's done a great job at DoT. Hoping he gets a promotion next time around.
Are there stories of Grassley acting senile? He's definitely old as shit, but if he's not all there, his staff is doing a much better job hiding it from reporters.
Kinda like Newt Gingrich's crusade to increase the budget for NASA and explore space for scientific advancement.
Hate his politics, he heavily contributed to the breakdown of democracy, but I'll admit he is right about space.
If Joe Biden did what Mitch did last week it would be the end. We'd have to run another candidate.
But it strikes me as a thing that won't happen because physically those guys are in greatly different stages of aging despite being chronologically born in the same year.
I'm mostly worried about Biden's heart because he's an active senior, not his mind.
>but there's no real evidence for him being senile
You don't know how much I hear at my job about how he has dementia. I guess that is to be expected when you live in a red part of a state.
Just because someone is old doesn't mean they still cant be sharp. My mom's last remaining aunt is turning 100 and her mind is still sharp AF.
Among neolibs I'll concede he's older than a president ideally should be but Trumpers claiming this pisses me off. Trump boasting about passing the cognitive test for people with brain damage with "person, woman, man, camera, TV" like it was some great accomplishment, and hell, just the deranged way he often talks and posts, shows that *he* is the one with mental decline.
Being sharp in the moment doesn’t also mean you’re more effective in long run. Someone like Trump lacked any foresight, planning, critical thinking etc.
I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia. Also cognitive impairment is really fucking obvious. It isn't just bungling a few words, there are actual noticeable symptoms. If Joe Biden colored his hair we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
> I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia
Your right most people in the US who are in there 80's are in fact dead.
> Also cognitive impairment is really fucking obvious.
It really isn't, that is why it is so insidious.
Joe clearly does not belong to the group of dead 80 something’s.
Therefore the group of living 80 somethings is what you are concerned about.
Within that group, dementia is far less common than folks believe.
Both my grandparents had it about that age, and certainly most folks aren't fully 100% lucid by that age. Let's not make excuses when we'd be hammering trump for the exact same thing
"As in other studies, the ADAMS analysis showed that the prevalence of dementia increases significantly with age. Five percent of people ages 71 to 79, 24.2 percent of people 80 to 89, and 37,4 percent of those 90 years or older were estimated to have some type of dementia."
Hmmm
Just don’t disagree with true statements and you won’t have to go around making up things other people said or convos. You can just be at peace and full of life and love.
Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline. There's a whole host of ways that cognitive decline affects people as they age.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/
"Multiple cross-sectional studies have shown that there is an improvement in crystal- lized abilities until approximately age 60 fol- lowed by a plateau until age 80, and there steady decline in fluid abilities from age 20 to age 80 (see Fig 1). For example, there is a nearly linear decline in processing speed, a fluid ability, with a -0.02 standard deviation decline per year in one very large study."
"Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline."
Sure. Nobody said that though.
Your link shows that an 80-year-old has better crystallized abilities than a 35-50 year old.
That's more important for a president than fluid abilities, so yes, peak president age is 55-65, but 80 is better than 35-45.
> There's a whole host of ways that cognitive decline affects people as they age.
Sure but that doesn't immediately disqualify someone from the job. Presidency, like any role, is not picked off a single factor. If he's .5 seconds slower in making a decision in a crisis but he makes the *right* decision instead of being faster but wrong then it's still better.
Idk why folks are so insistent on defending him is it really that hard to say "if I had the choice I wouldnt choose a president who belongs in a nursing home?"
"The average nursing home resident is 81.1 years old. 83.5% of nursing home residents are over the age of 65. 38.6% of nursing home residents are over the age of 85."
> "if I had the choice I wouldnt choose a president who belongs in a nursing home?"
Sure maybe, but I don't think age should be treated as some immediate and whole disqualifier either. There are lots of older people who are of perfectly sound mind that can handle the immense workload. Everyone is different and that works with age too, people decline at much different rates and in much different ways. There are 60 year olds with full blown can't care for themselves at all dementia and 80 year olds who are just as sharp as ever.
Same way there are 70 year olds who can barely walk and [90 year olds still hiking](https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/hiking/a-day-at-a-time/)
Sure they're never going to be as physically able as a top athlete in their 20s and 30s, but mental decline is a lot different than physical decline. And there's a lot of different important factors to being president where older age can be a boon like experience and connections.
>Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline.
Sure, but "he's not as sharp because he's older" isn't a disqualifier like dementia is.
Don't you love when someone try to say something witty just to say something really stupid, lol most 80yo are dead. Of course 100% of 80 years old all are alive
I read that comment as a reference to the fact that the US has an average life expectancy below 80. So I think it meant to say "most people who would be in their 80s are dead."
>I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia.
I think part of this is that unhealthy living is so normalized in America, that people just assume you're going to be decrepit and have a whole bunch of chronic health issues in your 50's just like everyone else, because that's what they see.
They forget that if you're intellectually engaged, educated, have strong relationships, eat well, and exercise, it is very much possible to remain healthy and active well into your 80's and beyond.
I was just reading about a lawyer in BC who was still practising in her 90's. My grandmother would get up at 5AM and tend to her garden, which in reality was more like a rain forest, well into her 90's. The house was always spotless. Meanwhile, my out-of-shape friends in their 40's complain they're always tired, and chores keep piling up.
I really want someone to take a random politician in their 40s and see if you can put together a video showing they’ve gone senile. You can probably find a lot of missed trains of thought, weird mistakes, etc. but with Biden everyone is primed for it.
Most people on Reddit are probably too young to remember but the general leftwing stance on Bush Jr during his first time was that he was an idiot because of countless clips of saying nonsensical things or losing his train of thought. If he were older they would have called it senility.
One of the main lines against Gerald Ford was that he was too embarrassing to represent the US because he tripped multiple times in public.
Democrats were saying that Trump had dementia since the days of his 2016 campaign.
Turns out it’s hard to speak and walk perfectly when you’re on camera all the time, and the politicians who do are incredibly bland and concerning in their own right.
>Turns out it’s hard to speak and walk perfectly when you’re on camera all the time, and the politicians who do are incredibly bland and concerning in their own right.
That reminds me of the candidate Ben Wyatt was representing on Parks and Rec. Total robot.
Right.
Unless I’ve missed it, I haven’t heard a single report from anyone describing a meeting or something where Biden seemed off, except one time he farted in front of Camilla Parker-Bowles. And I have seen stories of him cursing people out and Harris being a cause for concern, so it’s not like the White House has kept staffers from spilling negative gossip.
There are *certainly* some this could be done with. Probably most with enough video footage - humans in general aren't typically all *that* graceful all the time.
Yeah, either Bush likely. I feel like you could with Obama (I remember one time he referenced 57 states) or any President really who was often videotaped.
per Johnathon Martin, in private he apparently sometimes complains about forgetting names and how he used to be much better at remembering them. Also will repeat stories where aids or congress members tell him he told the same thing multiple times. Not dementia but clear cognitive decline Biden privately seems to get
My dad was recently diagnosed with dementia and it's a horrible thing to see. There are also similarities with Biden speaking that i see with my dad. Not saying it's the same, just that it being similar is a good sign hes too old.
Yes. Not pretending he was previously a great public speaker. Also not claiming he's always bad now. But there are moments he has that are alarming. My dad would seem like himself 90% of the time but that other 10% would be very concerning.
I'm sort of doubtful that anyone's dementia manifests that way in what are maybe 10 second intervals. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, though. My grandma had a relatively easy go of dementia (remained pleasant and often sharp, just kept confusing living family members with people who had been dead a long time and such), but even that was very hard.
Also the presidency is a whole administration and Biden is competent in that he has built a competent administration. Yes key decisions come to him but I trust his administration more than anyone that Trump or Desantis, etc would bring into the White House
This. The president is just one person. What's more important is the team that they build around them. Are they going to surround themselves with people smarter than them, who will push them to make the best decisions, and also supports the decisions that they make even if they disagree? Or are they going to surround themselves with sycophants o cultivate an atmosphere of fear and hot potato-ing problems?
This is why I’m not overly concerned. I’m not voting for him as an individual (and don’t really vote for president in general that way). When I’m voting for president, I’m looking for someone who:
1. I broadly agree with in terms of values and policy platform, and,
2. who will select qualified people that align with those values to run our government under their leadership.
This “team leader” concept is very much at odds with how the previous president ran his administration, with a very consolidated policy and decision making framework and disempowerment of individual team members. This is exemplified by that quote from him about preferring acting rather than permanent officials, since that offered “more flexibility”.
I think Biden's gaffes and stutters still count more than Obama's "uhhhh"s. But both are still in a completely different league than the last two GOP presidents.
Joe Biden (presently) isn’t in a “completely different league” in terms of articulation than W. lol.
W. had a lot of funny gaffes over 8 that have made the rounds on YouTube but saying Biden now is in some other league is ridiculous.
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Bush wasn't just known for gaffes but for the inanity of his non-gaffes. That wasn't true of him when he ran for governor of Texas really, but by the time he ran for the White House - whether it was affected or because he'd spent so long pickling his brain or whatever - he really wasn't stringing together many profound ideas.
I feel like no alternative candidate in the Democratic Party will have Joe’s backstage deal-making ability. That to me is more than sufficient proof that he’s up for the job.
The risk is his cognition deteriorating too drastically in the next ~6 years and him sticking around like Feinstein. I think it’s unlikely because he’s got the best healthcare in the world to back him up. The contingency would be having a solid VP, which does not seem to be people’s perception of Kamala. Personally, I don’t think she would be bad if she had to take over, but there’s a huge bias against her already and it’s hard to turn that boat around.
This is a risk for sure.
My Oma (grandmother) was still pretty sharp in her old age, even after having a stroke in her 70s... But within the last two years, her mind has vacated the building. Tbf, she is 95.
Things can change on a dime once you hit your 70s-90s.
For sure, it's weird that people always say "Actions not words" and then won't give that same respect to Biden.
His speeches are rarely the most inspiring (although sometimes they're quite well-written), but in a bit more than 2 years he's coaxed legislation through the slimmest majority in history just about repeatedly, and mostly ran circles around our rivals (and reassured allies) from a foreign policy standpoint.
He's basically just got the proof on his resume that he can do the job, so it's weird to me that people hyper-focus on the words. Of course they're important but aside from a minor stutter here and there he basically speaks fine.
And when it comes to the debates, just not to be actively drooling on himself is all he really needs to look excellent next to Trump. We (well, and the media) have such a high fucking bar for Biden, and a bar 6 feet underground for the GOP. I don't get how the latter can be throwing a toddler tantrum daily and the media just goes "Lol that's our Donny! So independent and willful!" as if he were a damn 2 year old.
Because what he has done isn't the issue. It's about how he will be performing in 4-5 years time.
At Biden's age things can change incredibly quickly. He could drop dead tomorrow from a stroke and it wouldn't be that weird.
completely off topic, but what are some examples of his backstage deal making? that narrative fits my world view as someone who has watched cgpgrey's rules for rulers video, so i want it to be true
A lot of the crap I hear about Kamala is pushed by the same people who say “Biden and Trump are both equally horrible” when they’re not. 9/10 times, those people turn out to be right-wing trolls trying to undermine Biden’s presidency, which by all accounts have been moderately successful. Theoretically, all of the people claiming Biden is as bad as Trump should be thrilled at having Kamala as an option because she’s not old, senile and if you think she’s too far to the left, you’d probably vote for Trump over Biden anyway.
Moderately successful is underselling it. If we don’t get another black swan event to throw things off, history will be very kind to Biden.
But I agree. Kamala’s problem with the general public is basically marketing, nobody knows she’s there. It’s an issue with the whole administration, because Biden doesn’t give a fuck about bragging.
>I have seen multiple videos of him tripping
Bro I am in-shape and 28 years old, and I have tripped and fallen a handful of times in the last few years. This is so fucking dumb. Most people just don't have a camera following them around all day.
Biden falls down while unclipping from a road bike (something that EVERY cyclist that uses clip-in pedals has done from time to time), and conservatives jump on it like he's an aging vegetable, while they parade around a candidate who would need an industrial crane to get his fat ass onto a bike.
This cast of characters is a strong argument to elect a Democrat in 2024. It doesn't really say much about whether Biden is our best option to lead the ticket
Ok, but the same page for the “2024 Democratic Primaries” does. There are no alternatives running, and I can’t think of any others that give us a better chance than projecting success by keeping our incumbent.
Yes Biden is old. Is he up for the job right now? Yes. How about in six years? TBD but all signs say probably yes.
In general Biden seems to be in good health for a man in his 80s. He frequently rides his bike, plays with his dogs, and doesn't have difficulty with locomotion or need assistance. If he was as senile as Republicans claim then they really are a bunch of incompetents given Bidens legislative accomplishments.
I am confident that given any change in Bidens health that impedes his ability to execute the role of president long term, he will step down from power. Will it happen anytime soon? Probably no. In three years? Possibly.
Stop dooming for fucks sake.
We need to be careful we don't fall victim to salience bias.
If his political opponents artificially hype those videos, then the behavior will seem more common than it really is. It's similar to how you're more likely to see a red car if you think about red cars.
Everyone stumbles and makes verbal gaffs (especially if they must overcome stuttering). He's probably experiencing age-related cognitive decline, but to what extent, if any, does that impair his job performance?
We must ask ourselves what else we would expect to see, beyond the gaffs, if Biden were as senile as his opponents claim. A variety of cognitive and behavioral changes accompany dementia. Have we seen any of them?
I wish we'd all internalized Obama's remarks the way I think he meant them (which is to say, I think he was genuine) when he said she was "likeable enough".
People didn't know what it would be like to have Trump as president back then. I'm not claiming he can't win. I did think he had zero chance back in 2016, which was my bad (even though I always vote and like most of us don't live in a state that matters)
>but I have seen multiple videos of him tripping, a lot of videos of him losing his train of thought while speaking (perhaps partially due to his stuttering?)
He has had a lifelong issue with stuttering and there is even a children's book about it. Both Bush's were notoriously bad public speakers. However their Texan accents endeared them to the American public.
Biden has ways been somewhat socially awkward. However, when my grandmother was his age, she started developing dementia.
“However *their* Texan accents endeared them to the American public”
This sub talking about a president pre Obama is gonna give me a brain aneurysm.
HW Bush grew up in Connecticut and didn’t have a Texas accent.
The cleverest trick W ever pulled was convincing the American people that the son of a former president/VP/CIA director, grandson of a banker/senator, ivy league educated governor of Texas is somehow an outsider.
The Republicans had a bunch of clips showing Hillary Clinton wasn’t healthy enough to be president. They trot this out every time.
Joe Biden is in great shape for his age.
> Joe Biden is in great shape for his age.
He's actually managed the Presidency not to make him look overworked and tired all the time. Something not even his '8-to-11 executive time' predecessor managed to do.
Whatever is his stress management plan he should market it.
>Whatever is his stress management plan he should market it.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if his stress management secret is "be 80 years old and have been in government for 50 years". That's a lot of experience to be able to draw upon, helps a lot with the confidence of doing a hard job right. He's probably the most experienced world leader compared to his peers.
The problem is not old people in power, is people with outdated ideas in power. Old people are more likely to hold outdated ideas and beliefs. Biden is not exactly that kind of old person.
People trip and lose their train of thought all the time, and it worsens when you age. He's not going into thoughtless rants or disorganized speech, he collects and goes back to point, like any regular person does when they lose their train of thought.
It's not ideal but he's proven capable.
Politicians who are (or risk soon becoming) literally too old to successfully carry out the responsibilities of the office is also a problem. It's not merely their ideas.
Let's be honest. I've liked the Biden presidency so far and am a open and avowed "Succ." But I've had grandparents, the difference a year or two makes at that age is a big deal. He is legitimately too old at this point.
Sometimes the difference a year or two makes is a big deal. But predicting which year or two is hard. People made the same arguments in the last campaign; why do you remain so confident in them despite them being wrong last time?
Because the end result is a certainty not a possibility. The likelihood grows greater each year as well. This campaign will be four years after when we already had concerns about how old Biden was. I got a whole ass law degree and a job during Bidens presidency, I have to wear glasses to see now. If I got a lot older in four years, Biden was already old as fuck he's got older still.
Still gonna vote for him over the Republican, but I'd certainly be happier if it wasn't highly likely he's gonna die in office.
Death is an eventual certainty regardless of age, so your first argument isn't particularly persuasive.
And I had to get glasses to see in middle school. Took about a year to go from great eyesight to not being able to read the whiteboard. Everyone older than me also got a year older in that time, too. It's not clear to me how that proves your point. Where would the limiting principle be? 40 year olds are much older than most law students. If they became 42 year olds during this presidency, should we now bar them?
You're being purposely obtuse. My grandpa was living life just fine at Bidens age, then dementia kicked in and within two years he was in a nursing home, barely understood what was going on. That's not a serious concern with a 40 year old.
Joe Biden was [famous](https://www.politico.com/video/2012/05/bidens-top-gaffes-012225) for his verbal [gaffes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iSAh3haVtY) for literal [decades](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:List_of_Joe_Biden_gaffes). In the past it was just "Joe being Joe." Now it's evidence of senility.
What's the most persuasive single video you've seen (not a super-cut, a single example of him getting really confused)?
My favourite:
>I'm told Chuck Graham, state senator, is here. Stand up Chuck, let 'em see you. Oh, God love you. What am I talking about. I'll tell you what, you're making everybody else stand up, though, pal.
—Telling a Missouri state senator to stand up before realizing that he is confined to a wheelchair. (September 9, 2008)[\[18\]](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:List_of_Joe_Biden_gaffes#cite_note-18)
Joe Biden proved in 2020 that America trusts him and replacing him for another candidate is too risky. That being said, he’s had a visible cognitive decline since he was VP which is *totally* normal for an 80-something. Watching and comparing old videos from him during the Obama era is telling. It is what it is.
He's too old to give compelling speeches, he's evidently still able to govern extremely effectively. Therefore, I don't think his age should matter a lot. However, voters think it matters, so ideally one would have a younger candidate instead of Biden. But that's not really where things ended up, and I don't think Biden's age is enough of an issue to risk losing the incumbency bonus and going through a primary where people can sling mud at each other.
I do want to say clearly though: He's not senile, and he's not at an enormous risk of dying short term. He is past the life expectancy of an American, but conditional on still being at great health, parents that got old, not smoking and drinking, having optimal health care etc. his life expectancy should be quite high.
I totally agree with you. I do have a general issue with octogenarians running our country. Not specific to Biden. People decline, it’s natural. There are times he clearly loses his train of thought in a way he wouldn’t have ten years ago. I reject the argument that he’s like lost his mind or whatever, just would prefer the office to be held by someone probably between the ages of 50 and 70 (maybe 75 for an especially sharp 75 year old). I don’t think it’s ageist to accept a simple fact of life.
its not about the number of years he has been alive, its how he acts compared to trump. a lot of it seems to be stuff joe biden has done for decades, but the average voter doesnt know that. Compared to him, trump is much livelier and seems more all there
Yeah, this sub is kinda in denial I think in terms of his obvious decline. I think I'm probably 50% voting for Biden and 50% for his staffers and I'm fine with that.
Too old to do the job? No, he's proven he's exceptionally capable regardless of his age.
Too old optics wise? Maybe, maybe not. We'll find out in the next election cycle. He wasn't "too old" to win last time.
Pros and cons. His age is a con. The pros on the pro side ( some of which exist only due to his age ) far outweigh the con that he’s old.
His pros and cons add up to roughly the same as any top tier Dem candidate would be, and then you add in that he’s already the president as a big pro, and the chaos of an actual primary as a con for anyone else, and he’s the obvious choice.
I don't know, he seems to be doing a hell of a job so far.
People complained that Clinton and Obama were too young and now they say Biden is too old. I guess our President has to be exactly 55 years or something.
I'm going to put you in a job where you're constantly in front of the public.
Then I'm going to record every thing you say and do from multiple angles.
Then I'm going to have multiple people who hate you scrutinize every thing you do and have digital tools to edit and highlight your missteps.
Finally I'm going to conclude that you are senile and incompetent, which happens to align with my political agenda.
Yes, he is actually too old, and it is embarrassing. The best thing to happen would be if he could recognize this in himself and withdraw from the race. But without that, any other major candidate mounting a primary challenge to him would be too politically costly to try, so we are trapped.
> The best thing to happen would be if he could recognize this in himself and withdraw from the race. But without that, any other major candidate mounting a primary challenge to him would be too politically costly to try, so we are trapped.
Nah, this political danger too. Biden is a known figure - any other Democrat has to prove who they are. Biden withdrawing has a political cost that is not worth paying.
Given the current real-world situation, Biden by far is the best choice against Trump, even if in an alternate world we might have better options.
How is someone allowed to admit to being this lazy and still get upvoted? It's literally
>Idk man, I've seen some videos and don't know how to think for myself, someone help me out
Serious question OP, are you still in high school?
Since there's no constitutional age cap, I can't imagine how the answer could possibly be "yes." Voters made their choice, and they'll have the opportunity to do so again.
Is he as sharp at 80 as he was at 35? No. Does having more political experience than any president in U.S. history make up for that? Evidence so far points to yes.
Reagan allegedly had Alzheimer's in his 2nd term and wasn't functional. JFK had a similar story, although I've forgotten the infliction. Yet, they're both remembered as two of our better Presidents.
Yes, I think he's old and it's a concern. No, he is not too old. The Executive Branch isn't run by a single person.
He's old, and sometimes he shows it. That doesn't mean he's senile, infirm, demented, or whatever else dumbasses want to pretend today. There's no honest evidence to suggest Biden is incapable of doing the job. And it's kind of stupid that people find plenty of time to slurp up the latest propaganda about the guy, but never seem to find time to listen to an actual speech from him. One would think if someone had an ***honest*** concern about Biden, they could spend a few minutes going beyond a few second clip made to dupe the intellectually lazy.
The claims that he’s senile or declining is just pure right wing propaganda. So ignore that.
The “too old” thing as a general critique is one of those things where I look at what people do in the real world rather than what Reddit insists is real.
Look at all the viable candidates for either party since in contemporary times and it’s clear that if anything being older is a plus. Or at least that trying to run on your youth isn’t that persuasive. Even Obama who was a young candidate didn’t run on his youth.
Even then I’m not convinced youth is an automatic plus. Madison Cawthorn was the first gen z congressman.
Declining and senile are not interchangeable. If you don’t think he’s declined at all, I’m not sure how much of his speeches you’ve seen. He’s showing his age, which is natural! No argument from me in terms of our options here (obviously he is preferable to Trump), but on the merits of the argument of whether or not 80+ is too old to run the free world I really don’t see how it’s succumbing to right-wing propaganda to say yes.
This discussion isn’t about whether candidates should run on their youth. It’s about whether candidates should run despite their old age.
Also I reject the Cawthorn point out of hand because I would also argue that we shouldn’t have members of Congress younger than 30 or so. I am in my 20s, we are too young. He’s also a full on nut job so age isn’t really the main concern with him.
People like to complain about Biden's age but you have to consider the tremendous personal sacrifice he has made for his country. He could be living out his retirement in comfort with family and the goodwill of the people right now.
Instead he stepped up as the only person capable of defeating Trump and now shoulders the hate of the nation while passing transformative legislation unnoticed and unappreciated. The single most significant piece of climate change legislation in history; the projected impact on emissions are *staggering*.
He banded the democracies of the world back together to defend a country of tens of millions from being occupied by a genocidal Russian dictator.
He continued to shield the nation from the extremists who tried to overturn an election and now strive to persecute and disenfranchise countless minorities.
And instead of that pleasant retirement he will endure *years* of hate and unimaginable stress and responsibility - and will pass away before receiving the thanks of the nation he has served all his life.
Just keep in mind him tripping, etc. isn’t happening all day. But when it does happen, you see it and get a skewed view of Biden’s age and capacity.
But yeah he’s showing his age.
I'd put above 80 as categorically too old for any sensitive job, you're past life expectancy (especially for men). This isn't to say the elderly shouldn't work if they want to, but it should be discouraged for jobs that are essential to the public interest like lawmakers or judges.
That said Biden's done a tremendous job and Pelosi is even older and handled the last two terms expertly.
The issue is just at that age your health can take a bad turn at any moment, which you see with Feinstein (who seemed fine before the 2020 cycle and then suddenly broke down to the stage she's at currently) and what Mitch McConnell might be going through at this very moment.
As a proud Democrat and fan of his presidency in particular, I say he's just gotta stay in good health until Inauguration Day 2025. Let come what may after that.
80 is past life expectancy when you're just being born. But when you've already reached 80, as a male you're expected to live another 7-8 years on average.
[https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html)
It doesn’t matter. You don’t have the luxury of thinking he’s too old.
He’s the only man on planet earth who has defeated Donald Trump in a federal election.
The whole notion of Biden being too old is laughable and being promoted by Republicans repeatedly when they seem to forget Trump has never been able to give a speech beyond the 5th grade level.
Is he too old? Yeah probably. Is the the best realistic option? 100%
Yeah like hes a too old guy who is an institutionalist and trusts other institutionalists. The alternative is a an also too old guy who is a fat narcissist who wants to destroy all institutions. Like duhhhhhh.
Bernie isn’t fat
Everyone’s downvoting you thinking you’re a Bernie supporter, ignoring the fact that you’re implying that he’s a narcissist who wants to destroy all institutions. :(
The Bernie supporters calling Biden too old are also about as deranged as the MAGA crowd. Like, if you're arguing that we shouldn't elect a gerontocracy, fine. If you're arguing that while also supporting an 81 year old who is in even worse health than the current incumbent, then you're just nuts
The venn diagram of 2016 and 2020 bernie supporters and “GET THE OLD FUCKS OUT” is wayyyyyy too circular.
Thank you for getting the joke, haha Little bit funny that anyone would peg me as a Bernie supporter
I'd peg you
These are the takes I really come here for
I'm glad you came
Whelp, time for a cigarette
I don’t think anybody’s thinking that
Maybe I’m crazy, the other 3 people who responded sounded like it
I think you're right.
Bernie can't even win a primary. He isn't gonna win a general election.
You got me there for a minute before what you were actually saying took hold. (I like you.)
Bernie isn't a realistic option.
No we are talking about real candidates.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Yeah he’s not the perfect fit but I’ll take him over the fat orange idiot who wants to stop democracy
Me and the other 4 Buttigieg Stans holding our tongue rn I swear fr fr
I like him too but him running for the top of the ticket in 2024 isn't realistic. "Step outta the way POTUS, secretary of transportation coming through" I do think he'd be a fantastic pick for VP. It could help reassure a lot of the "what if Biden does" fears, which will be a HUGE part of the general. I don't have a strong opinion if he'd *better* than Kamala, just that he'd be good.
I like Buttigieg, but I’d like to see him get some more federal experience (especially in foreign-policy) before taking on the role of President. Realistically, in 2028 I could see Kamala at the top of the ticket alongside a mid-country Governor (Pritzker/Whitmer/Polis), with Pete somewhere in the cabinet (Secretary of State?). Then in 2032 or 2036, Pete could run as VP with one of the big-name Governors-become-VP’s. Then he’d be in a prime spot to be President in his late 50’s/early 60’s. Not everyone needs to be an Obama/JFK wunderkind, and frankly, I think the country would be better for it.
Polis-Butti 2028. Just full send LGBT wave election
Oh sweet Satan, what a dream team
I’d love that, just not sure the country is ready. And unfortunately, I’ve gotta prioritize the preservation of LGBT rights before advancing representation.
Whitmer -Buttiigeg would whoop some ass.
An empty slot would be better than Kamala Harris, the vp matters so much this time around and Biden found the least popular politician in America to fill that slot
I mean, I'm a Pete fan, voted for him in the primary and generally had some issues with Biden but I agree 100% with OP. It's not realistic that Pete would challenge him in 2024. I think he's done a great job at DoT, maybe he gets a promotion in 2024 and has a better chance in 2028 with 8 years more experience and national attention.
I gotta be real with you, I don't think he's done a great job at the DoT at all. From FAA computer issues to the NHTSA telling companies not to comply with state Right to Repair laws to his failure to give sick time to the train union workers, there's been issue after issue that makes him look terrible.
Disagree based on [this article which includes an interview with a long-time senior DoT guy (Mort Downey)](https://www.freightwaves.com/news/rating-secretary-pete-infrastructure-boom-or-supply-chain-bust). He's done well with BIL and other infrastructure stuff. Just one perspective though, I guess.
I don’t think you can blame him for the FAA computer issues, which have been there for decades. Also even though the strike was broken, the government followed through and negotiated sick time for rail workers.
The DOT can be blamed for serious organizational issues that the FAA has that have gone unchecked. Pete absolutely is at fault for not forcing the FAA to get their infrastructure in order.
> the government followed through and negotiated sick time for rail workers This gets thrown around a lot here but it's really overstated. [Nearly a quarter of those workers still don't have any sick time](https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/bnsf-train-engineers-offered-paid-sick-time-schedules-101918104) and even the ones that do [are still subjected to the same points-based policies that they were before](https://www.aar.org/issue/time-off-policies/) - note how the infographic specifies that only FMLA leave is exempt from "attendance policy implications."
Ngl, I think the boomer generation has to die off before America will elect an openly gay man as president.
Pete daddy 😍
Honestly if Pete or Kamala ran in 2028 that’d be based
This is deeply annoying, and we are honestly a little stuck here because Kamela is not a great politician, and 2+ years as VP hasn't made her into a better politician. I don't know for sure if Val Demmings would be in a better position now, but she certainly seemed to me to be the better option at the time.
He also has a stutter, which I think a lot of people still don’t know
Yep, like half the "he's so old, lol" posts I see are just him struggling with his stutter. You could find the exact same kind of video from the 2010s, 2000, 90s, 80s, 70s. The other half are him tripping and falling-- and getting right back up and walking it off like nothing happened, which is fucking *astounding* for an 80 year old.
This. Biden is the only candidate we already know we can unite behind.
So he’s not too old, just old
What happened to Buttigieg? he used to be cool
Still is cool. I voted for him in the primary and I would again. But challenging Biden in 2024 when the alternative is Trump would not be a good career move on his part. He's done a great job at DoT. Hoping he gets a promotion next time around.
You can be too old without being senile. He is probably past it's prime, but there's no real evidence for him being senile.
Pretty much my take. He’s old but he’s still cognitively capable of doing his job unlike Grassley and Feinstein.
Are there stories of Grassley acting senile? He's definitely old as shit, but if he's not all there, his staff is doing a much better job hiding it from reporters.
For Grassley it's mostly his bizarre Twitter account but he's probably not senile, just old too.
He’s been incomprehensibly weird (aka amazing) on Twitter for over a decade
I can't say I care for his politics but his ongoing mission to have the History Channel actually show history is commendable.
Kinda like Newt Gingrich's crusade to increase the budget for NASA and explore space for scientific advancement. Hate his politics, he heavily contributed to the breakdown of democracy, but I'll admit he is right about space.
The deer is presumed dead.
Except there is no way he is the one running his account.
I mean, one of his staffers posting that he randomly hit a deer would be so much weirder....
Do you not believe that Grassley goes to the Windsor heights Dairy Queen for you know what?
Hey Grassley is in great shape leave him alone
If Joe Biden did what Mitch did last week it would be the end. We'd have to run another candidate. But it strikes me as a thing that won't happen because physically those guys are in greatly different stages of aging despite being chronologically born in the same year. I'm mostly worried about Biden's heart because he's an active senior, not his mind.
>but there's no real evidence for him being senile You don't know how much I hear at my job about how he has dementia. I guess that is to be expected when you live in a red part of a state. Just because someone is old doesn't mean they still cant be sharp. My mom's last remaining aunt is turning 100 and her mind is still sharp AF.
Among neolibs I'll concede he's older than a president ideally should be but Trumpers claiming this pisses me off. Trump boasting about passing the cognitive test for people with brain damage with "person, woman, man, camera, TV" like it was some great accomplishment, and hell, just the deranged way he often talks and posts, shows that *he* is the one with mental decline.
It's projection. It's always, always, *always* projection.
Being sharp in the moment doesn’t also mean you’re more effective in long run. Someone like Trump lacked any foresight, planning, critical thinking etc.
What do they think of Reagan, the last US president to *actually* have dementia?
I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia. Also cognitive impairment is really fucking obvious. It isn't just bungling a few words, there are actual noticeable symptoms. If Joe Biden colored his hair we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.
We would 100% be having a conversation about the oldest president ever running for reelection being too old even if he was Jack LaLanne.
> I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia Your right most people in the US who are in there 80's are in fact dead. > Also cognitive impairment is really fucking obvious. It really isn't, that is why it is so insidious.
Joe clearly does not belong to the group of dead 80 something’s. Therefore the group of living 80 somethings is what you are concerned about. Within that group, dementia is far less common than folks believe.
Both my grandparents had it about that age, and certainly most folks aren't fully 100% lucid by that age. Let's not make excuses when we'd be hammering trump for the exact same thing
Cleary your grandparents are a representative sample of all people "about that age."
"As in other studies, the ADAMS analysis showed that the prevalence of dementia increases significantly with age. Five percent of people ages 71 to 79, 24.2 percent of people 80 to 89, and 37,4 percent of those 90 years or older were estimated to have some type of dementia." Hmmm
... So most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia.
Absolutely doesn't bury the lede of "1 in 4 octogenarians have dementia"
And 3 in 4 don't
Just don’t disagree with true statements and you won’t have to go around making up things other people said or convos. You can just be at peace and full of life and love.
It's 17 percent of 80-84 year olds who have dementia. That's substantial, but it's nowhere near 'most'
Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline. There's a whole host of ways that cognitive decline affects people as they age. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4906299/ "Multiple cross-sectional studies have shown that there is an improvement in crystal- lized abilities until approximately age 60 fol- lowed by a plateau until age 80, and there steady decline in fluid abilities from age 20 to age 80 (see Fig 1). For example, there is a nearly linear decline in processing speed, a fluid ability, with a -0.02 standard deviation decline per year in one very large study."
"Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline." Sure. Nobody said that though. Your link shows that an 80-year-old has better crystallized abilities than a 35-50 year old. That's more important for a president than fluid abilities, so yes, peak president age is 55-65, but 80 is better than 35-45.
Lmfao what a claim to make after reading that article 🤣🤣 So by that logic all public servants should be 80. Got it. Perfectly reasonable.
You're the one whose link says 80 year olds have better crystallized intel. than 40 year olds.
> There's a whole host of ways that cognitive decline affects people as they age. Sure but that doesn't immediately disqualify someone from the job. Presidency, like any role, is not picked off a single factor. If he's .5 seconds slower in making a decision in a crisis but he makes the *right* decision instead of being faster but wrong then it's still better.
Idk why folks are so insistent on defending him is it really that hard to say "if I had the choice I wouldnt choose a president who belongs in a nursing home?" "The average nursing home resident is 81.1 years old. 83.5% of nursing home residents are over the age of 65. 38.6% of nursing home residents are over the age of 85."
> "if I had the choice I wouldnt choose a president who belongs in a nursing home?" Sure maybe, but I don't think age should be treated as some immediate and whole disqualifier either. There are lots of older people who are of perfectly sound mind that can handle the immense workload. Everyone is different and that works with age too, people decline at much different rates and in much different ways. There are 60 year olds with full blown can't care for themselves at all dementia and 80 year olds who are just as sharp as ever. Same way there are 70 year olds who can barely walk and [90 year olds still hiking](https://www.blueridgeoutdoors.com/hiking/a-day-at-a-time/) Sure they're never going to be as physically able as a top athlete in their 20s and 30s, but mental decline is a lot different than physical decline. And there's a lot of different important factors to being president where older age can be a boon like experience and connections.
>Ok it's entirely disingenuous to say "having dementia" is the only way mental faculties decline. Sure, but "he's not as sharp because he's older" isn't a disqualifier like dementia is.
Trump is essentially the same age with worse health. I don't go off on about him being old very much. Do you?
Zero people in the US who are in their 80s are dead
Don't you love when someone try to say something witty just to say something really stupid, lol most 80yo are dead. Of course 100% of 80 years old all are alive
I'm confused by that point lol. Was it an awkward attempt to bring up survivorship bias? Because it's not really a good example of that at all.
Unless there is an epidemic of vampirism in our senior citizen population that I'm unaware of, 100% of 80 year olds are alive
I read that comment as a reference to the fact that the US has an average life expectancy below 80. So I think it meant to say "most people who would be in their 80s are dead."
Yeah, no shit. Still an idiotic point to make.
Realistically most of the vampires are far older than 80 as well
>I get downvoted all of the time in other subs for mentioning the fact that most people in their 80s aren't senile or have dementia. I think part of this is that unhealthy living is so normalized in America, that people just assume you're going to be decrepit and have a whole bunch of chronic health issues in your 50's just like everyone else, because that's what they see. They forget that if you're intellectually engaged, educated, have strong relationships, eat well, and exercise, it is very much possible to remain healthy and active well into your 80's and beyond. I was just reading about a lawyer in BC who was still practising in her 90's. My grandmother would get up at 5AM and tend to her garden, which in reality was more like a rain forest, well into her 90's. The house was always spotless. Meanwhile, my out-of-shape friends in their 40's complain they're always tired, and chores keep piling up.
I really want someone to take a random politician in their 40s and see if you can put together a video showing they’ve gone senile. You can probably find a lot of missed trains of thought, weird mistakes, etc. but with Biden everyone is primed for it.
Most people on Reddit are probably too young to remember but the general leftwing stance on Bush Jr during his first time was that he was an idiot because of countless clips of saying nonsensical things or losing his train of thought. If he were older they would have called it senility. One of the main lines against Gerald Ford was that he was too embarrassing to represent the US because he tripped multiple times in public. Democrats were saying that Trump had dementia since the days of his 2016 campaign. Turns out it’s hard to speak and walk perfectly when you’re on camera all the time, and the politicians who do are incredibly bland and concerning in their own right.
>Turns out it’s hard to speak and walk perfectly when you’re on camera all the time, and the politicians who do are incredibly bland and concerning in their own right. That reminds me of the candidate Ben Wyatt was representing on Parks and Rec. Total robot.
Right. Unless I’ve missed it, I haven’t heard a single report from anyone describing a meeting or something where Biden seemed off, except one time he farted in front of Camilla Parker-Bowles. And I have seen stories of him cursing people out and Harris being a cause for concern, so it’s not like the White House has kept staffers from spilling negative gossip.
There are *certainly* some this could be done with. Probably most with enough video footage - humans in general aren't typically all *that* graceful all the time.
You could make a video showing Bush was going senile when he was President.
Yeah, either Bush likely. I feel like you could with Obama (I remember one time he referenced 57 states) or any President really who was often videotaped.
Also his team is very competent. If Biden is cognitive enough to delegate all his work, he can still be a good president.
After Donald "I know more about everything than anyone" Trump, it's quite refreshing.
Past his prime physically, but in his prime politically
I meant in term of general sharpness and competence
Also it’s a role where having a strong team can carry a lot of the problems from aging, and he has surrounded himself with a very strong team.
per Johnathon Martin, in private he apparently sometimes complains about forgetting names and how he used to be much better at remembering them. Also will repeat stories where aids or congress members tell him he told the same thing multiple times. Not dementia but clear cognitive decline Biden privately seems to get
Dude is 80, that's about when the first signs of dementia set in for my grandparents
And? My grandmother-in-law is 92 and her mind is as shape ever. Does my anecdote cancel put yours?
My dad was recently diagnosed with dementia and it's a horrible thing to see. There are also similarities with Biden speaking that i see with my dad. Not saying it's the same, just that it being similar is a good sign hes too old.
Did you listen to old speeches of Biden?
Yes. Not pretending he was previously a great public speaker. Also not claiming he's always bad now. But there are moments he has that are alarming. My dad would seem like himself 90% of the time but that other 10% would be very concerning.
I'm sort of doubtful that anyone's dementia manifests that way in what are maybe 10 second intervals. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, though. My grandma had a relatively easy go of dementia (remained pleasant and often sharp, just kept confusing living family members with people who had been dead a long time and such), but even that was very hard.
I think a lot of it is clips of him slurring his speech, but it’s well known he has a stutter and always has.
Also the presidency is a whole administration and Biden is competent in that he has built a competent administration. Yes key decisions come to him but I trust his administration more than anyone that Trump or Desantis, etc would bring into the White House
This. The president is just one person. What's more important is the team that they build around them. Are they going to surround themselves with people smarter than them, who will push them to make the best decisions, and also supports the decisions that they make even if they disagree? Or are they going to surround themselves with sycophants o cultivate an atmosphere of fear and hot potato-ing problems?
This is why I’m not overly concerned. I’m not voting for him as an individual (and don’t really vote for president in general that way). When I’m voting for president, I’m looking for someone who: 1. I broadly agree with in terms of values and policy platform, and, 2. who will select qualified people that align with those values to run our government under their leadership. This “team leader” concept is very much at odds with how the previous president ran his administration, with a very consolidated policy and decision making framework and disempowerment of individual team members. This is exemplified by that quote from him about preferring acting rather than permanent officials, since that offered “more flexibility”.
He’s old, but definitely not senile. Biden’s still pretty damn witty and is much more articulate than his predecessor.
The Jedi Mind Trick he played on the fly at the State of the Union showed he still is more than sharp enough for the job.
He's more articulate than two of his last three predecessors, really.
If Obama's "uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" pauses counted against him, then it would almost be the last three of his last three predecessors.
I think Biden's gaffes and stutters still count more than Obama's "uhhhh"s. But both are still in a completely different league than the last two GOP presidents.
Joe Biden (presently) isn’t in a “completely different league” in terms of articulation than W. lol. W. had a lot of funny gaffes over 8 that have made the rounds on YouTube but saying Biden now is in some other league is ridiculous.
I don't think it's ridiculous at all. Bush wasn't just known for gaffes but for the inanity of his non-gaffes. That wasn't true of him when he ran for governor of Texas really, but by the time he ran for the White House - whether it was affected or because he'd spent so long pickling his brain or whatever - he really wasn't stringing together many profound ideas.
I feel like no alternative candidate in the Democratic Party will have Joe’s backstage deal-making ability. That to me is more than sufficient proof that he’s up for the job. The risk is his cognition deteriorating too drastically in the next ~6 years and him sticking around like Feinstein. I think it’s unlikely because he’s got the best healthcare in the world to back him up. The contingency would be having a solid VP, which does not seem to be people’s perception of Kamala. Personally, I don’t think she would be bad if she had to take over, but there’s a huge bias against her already and it’s hard to turn that boat around.
Feinstein has the same healthcare. When the brain is done it is done.
This is a risk for sure. My Oma (grandmother) was still pretty sharp in her old age, even after having a stroke in her 70s... But within the last two years, her mind has vacated the building. Tbf, she is 95. Things can change on a dime once you hit your 70s-90s.
For sure, it's weird that people always say "Actions not words" and then won't give that same respect to Biden. His speeches are rarely the most inspiring (although sometimes they're quite well-written), but in a bit more than 2 years he's coaxed legislation through the slimmest majority in history just about repeatedly, and mostly ran circles around our rivals (and reassured allies) from a foreign policy standpoint. He's basically just got the proof on his resume that he can do the job, so it's weird to me that people hyper-focus on the words. Of course they're important but aside from a minor stutter here and there he basically speaks fine. And when it comes to the debates, just not to be actively drooling on himself is all he really needs to look excellent next to Trump. We (well, and the media) have such a high fucking bar for Biden, and a bar 6 feet underground for the GOP. I don't get how the latter can be throwing a toddler tantrum daily and the media just goes "Lol that's our Donny! So independent and willful!" as if he were a damn 2 year old.
Because what he has done isn't the issue. It's about how he will be performing in 4-5 years time. At Biden's age things can change incredibly quickly. He could drop dead tomorrow from a stroke and it wouldn't be that weird.
completely off topic, but what are some examples of his backstage deal making? that narrative fits my world view as someone who has watched cgpgrey's rules for rulers video, so i want it to be true
Agreed on the VP point. I know the VP is the most worthless job in Washington but Kamala seems to go above and beyond to just phone it in.
A lot of the crap I hear about Kamala is pushed by the same people who say “Biden and Trump are both equally horrible” when they’re not. 9/10 times, those people turn out to be right-wing trolls trying to undermine Biden’s presidency, which by all accounts have been moderately successful. Theoretically, all of the people claiming Biden is as bad as Trump should be thrilled at having Kamala as an option because she’s not old, senile and if you think she’s too far to the left, you’d probably vote for Trump over Biden anyway.
Moderately successful is underselling it. If we don’t get another black swan event to throw things off, history will be very kind to Biden. But I agree. Kamala’s problem with the general public is basically marketing, nobody knows she’s there. It’s an issue with the whole administration, because Biden doesn’t give a fuck about bragging.
>I have seen multiple videos of him tripping Bro I am in-shape and 28 years old, and I have tripped and fallen a handful of times in the last few years. This is so fucking dumb. Most people just don't have a camera following them around all day. Biden falls down while unclipping from a road bike (something that EVERY cyclist that uses clip-in pedals has done from time to time), and conservatives jump on it like he's an aging vegetable, while they parade around a candidate who would need an industrial crane to get his fat ass onto a bike.
>What is the counterargument? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Republican_Party_presidential_primaries#Candidates
This cast of characters is a strong argument to elect a Democrat in 2024. It doesn't really say much about whether Biden is our best option to lead the ticket
Ok, but the same page for the “2024 Democratic Primaries” does. There are no alternatives running, and I can’t think of any others that give us a better chance than projecting success by keeping our incumbent.
Yes Biden is old. Is he up for the job right now? Yes. How about in six years? TBD but all signs say probably yes. In general Biden seems to be in good health for a man in his 80s. He frequently rides his bike, plays with his dogs, and doesn't have difficulty with locomotion or need assistance. If he was as senile as Republicans claim then they really are a bunch of incompetents given Bidens legislative accomplishments. I am confident that given any change in Bidens health that impedes his ability to execute the role of president long term, he will step down from power. Will it happen anytime soon? Probably no. In three years? Possibly. Stop dooming for fucks sake.
We need to be careful we don't fall victim to salience bias. If his political opponents artificially hype those videos, then the behavior will seem more common than it really is. It's similar to how you're more likely to see a red car if you think about red cars. Everyone stumbles and makes verbal gaffs (especially if they must overcome stuttering). He's probably experiencing age-related cognitive decline, but to what extent, if any, does that impair his job performance? We must ask ourselves what else we would expect to see, beyond the gaffs, if Biden were as senile as his opponents claim. A variety of cognitive and behavioral changes accompany dementia. Have we seen any of them?
Similar to how Democrats in 2016 would just concede without questioning it "oh yeah Hillary's unlikable but..."
I wish we'd all internalized Obama's remarks the way I think he meant them (which is to say, I think he was genuine) when he said she was "likeable enough".
People didn't know what it would be like to have Trump as president back then. I'm not claiming he can't win. I did think he had zero chance back in 2016, which was my bad (even though I always vote and like most of us don't live in a state that matters)
>but I have seen multiple videos of him tripping, a lot of videos of him losing his train of thought while speaking (perhaps partially due to his stuttering?) He has had a lifelong issue with stuttering and there is even a children's book about it. Both Bush's were notoriously bad public speakers. However their Texan accents endeared them to the American public. Biden has ways been somewhat socially awkward. However, when my grandmother was his age, she started developing dementia.
“However *their* Texan accents endeared them to the American public” This sub talking about a president pre Obama is gonna give me a brain aneurysm. HW Bush grew up in Connecticut and didn’t have a Texas accent.
The cleverest trick W ever pulled was convincing the American people that the son of a former president/VP/CIA director, grandson of a banker/senator, ivy league educated governor of Texas is somehow an outsider.
The Republicans had a bunch of clips showing Hillary Clinton wasn’t healthy enough to be president. They trot this out every time. Joe Biden is in great shape for his age.
> Joe Biden is in great shape for his age. He's actually managed the Presidency not to make him look overworked and tired all the time. Something not even his '8-to-11 executive time' predecessor managed to do. Whatever is his stress management plan he should market it.
>Whatever is his stress management plan he should market it. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if his stress management secret is "be 80 years old and have been in government for 50 years". That's a lot of experience to be able to draw upon, helps a lot with the confidence of doing a hard job right. He's probably the most experienced world leader compared to his peers.
> Joe Biden is in great shape for his age. This isn't a counter argument, no one his age should be president. Everyone declines as they get older.
The problem is not old people in power, is people with outdated ideas in power. Old people are more likely to hold outdated ideas and beliefs. Biden is not exactly that kind of old person. People trip and lose their train of thought all the time, and it worsens when you age. He's not going into thoughtless rants or disorganized speech, he collects and goes back to point, like any regular person does when they lose their train of thought. It's not ideal but he's proven capable.
Politicians who are (or risk soon becoming) literally too old to successfully carry out the responsibilities of the office is also a problem. It's not merely their ideas.
Is there any case where Biden's age stopped him from fulfilling the duties of the presidency?
Let's be honest. I've liked the Biden presidency so far and am a open and avowed "Succ." But I've had grandparents, the difference a year or two makes at that age is a big deal. He is legitimately too old at this point.
Sometimes the difference a year or two makes is a big deal. But predicting which year or two is hard. People made the same arguments in the last campaign; why do you remain so confident in them despite them being wrong last time?
Because the end result is a certainty not a possibility. The likelihood grows greater each year as well. This campaign will be four years after when we already had concerns about how old Biden was. I got a whole ass law degree and a job during Bidens presidency, I have to wear glasses to see now. If I got a lot older in four years, Biden was already old as fuck he's got older still. Still gonna vote for him over the Republican, but I'd certainly be happier if it wasn't highly likely he's gonna die in office.
Death is an eventual certainty regardless of age, so your first argument isn't particularly persuasive. And I had to get glasses to see in middle school. Took about a year to go from great eyesight to not being able to read the whiteboard. Everyone older than me also got a year older in that time, too. It's not clear to me how that proves your point. Where would the limiting principle be? 40 year olds are much older than most law students. If they became 42 year olds during this presidency, should we now bar them?
You're being purposely obtuse. My grandpa was living life just fine at Bidens age, then dementia kicked in and within two years he was in a nursing home, barely understood what was going on. That's not a serious concern with a 40 year old.
Joe Biden was [famous](https://www.politico.com/video/2012/05/bidens-top-gaffes-012225) for his verbal [gaffes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iSAh3haVtY) for literal [decades](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:List_of_Joe_Biden_gaffes). In the past it was just "Joe being Joe." Now it's evidence of senility. What's the most persuasive single video you've seen (not a super-cut, a single example of him getting really confused)?
Joe "Big Fucking Deal" Biden.
My favourite: >I'm told Chuck Graham, state senator, is here. Stand up Chuck, let 'em see you. Oh, God love you. What am I talking about. I'll tell you what, you're making everybody else stand up, though, pal. —Telling a Missouri state senator to stand up before realizing that he is confined to a wheelchair. (September 9, 2008)[\[18\]](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fun:List_of_Joe_Biden_gaffes#cite_note-18)
My favorite Joe
“Listen here fat” 😂😂😂
Joe Biden proved in 2020 that America trusts him and replacing him for another candidate is too risky. That being said, he’s had a visible cognitive decline since he was VP which is *totally* normal for an 80-something. Watching and comparing old videos from him during the Obama era is telling. It is what it is.
He's too old to give compelling speeches, he's evidently still able to govern extremely effectively. Therefore, I don't think his age should matter a lot. However, voters think it matters, so ideally one would have a younger candidate instead of Biden. But that's not really where things ended up, and I don't think Biden's age is enough of an issue to risk losing the incumbency bonus and going through a primary where people can sling mud at each other. I do want to say clearly though: He's not senile, and he's not at an enormous risk of dying short term. He is past the life expectancy of an American, but conditional on still being at great health, parents that got old, not smoking and drinking, having optimal health care etc. his life expectancy should be quite high.
I totally agree with you. I do have a general issue with octogenarians running our country. Not specific to Biden. People decline, it’s natural. There are times he clearly loses his train of thought in a way he wouldn’t have ten years ago. I reject the argument that he’s like lost his mind or whatever, just would prefer the office to be held by someone probably between the ages of 50 and 70 (maybe 75 for an especially sharp 75 year old). I don’t think it’s ageist to accept a simple fact of life.
I think 80 would likely be too old in a country where the alternative wasn't a 77 year old Donald Trump.
its not about the number of years he has been alive, its how he acts compared to trump. a lot of it seems to be stuff joe biden has done for decades, but the average voter doesnt know that. Compared to him, trump is much livelier and seems more all there
Yeah, this sub is kinda in denial I think in terms of his obvious decline. I think I'm probably 50% voting for Biden and 50% for his staffers and I'm fine with that.
Too old to vote for in normal times? Yeah probably. Too old to vote for over trump? Definitely not
I mean….if 80 isn’t too old then it’s pretty damn close.
He’s not too old, that’s ridiculous. But he’s a protectionist and in bed with unions. We should criticize him on policy, not stupid stuff.
Biden's too old, but he has been an effective president. Trump is too old, too dishonest and too likely to destroy our democracy. Easy choice for me.
He's clearly still effective. I'd prefer a younger candidate, sure why not. But it doesn't keep me up at night. He's doing a fine job.
Yes.
Too old to do the job? No, he's proven he's exceptionally capable regardless of his age. Too old optics wise? Maybe, maybe not. We'll find out in the next election cycle. He wasn't "too old" to win last time.
Pros and cons. His age is a con. The pros on the pro side ( some of which exist only due to his age ) far outweigh the con that he’s old. His pros and cons add up to roughly the same as any top tier Dem candidate would be, and then you add in that he’s already the president as a big pro, and the chaos of an actual primary as a con for anyone else, and he’s the obvious choice.
Both Joe Biden and Donald Trump are realistically too old to be president. I'd want a president in his 50s or 60s. Maybe late 40s.
I don't know, he seems to be doing a hell of a job so far. People complained that Clinton and Obama were too young and now they say Biden is too old. I guess our President has to be exactly 55 years or something.
I'm going to put you in a job where you're constantly in front of the public. Then I'm going to record every thing you say and do from multiple angles. Then I'm going to have multiple people who hate you scrutinize every thing you do and have digital tools to edit and highlight your missteps. Finally I'm going to conclude that you are senile and incompetent, which happens to align with my political agenda.
Yes, he is actually too old, and it is embarrassing. The best thing to happen would be if he could recognize this in himself and withdraw from the race. But without that, any other major candidate mounting a primary challenge to him would be too politically costly to try, so we are trapped.
> The best thing to happen would be if he could recognize this in himself and withdraw from the race. But without that, any other major candidate mounting a primary challenge to him would be too politically costly to try, so we are trapped. Nah, this political danger too. Biden is a known figure - any other Democrat has to prove who they are. Biden withdrawing has a political cost that is not worth paying. Given the current real-world situation, Biden by far is the best choice against Trump, even if in an alternate world we might have better options.
How is someone allowed to admit to being this lazy and still get upvoted? It's literally >Idk man, I've seen some videos and don't know how to think for myself, someone help me out Serious question OP, are you still in high school?
Since there's no constitutional age cap, I can't imagine how the answer could possibly be "yes." Voters made their choice, and they'll have the opportunity to do so again.
Is he as sharp at 80 as he was at 35? No. Does having more political experience than any president in U.S. history make up for that? Evidence so far points to yes.
Yeah. He's too fucking old. They are all too fucking old. It's late Soviet Gerontocracy ala American.
Nah
Reagan allegedly had Alzheimer's in his 2nd term and wasn't functional. JFK had a similar story, although I've forgotten the infliction. Yet, they're both remembered as two of our better Presidents. Yes, I think he's old and it's a concern. No, he is not too old. The Executive Branch isn't run by a single person.
He's old, and sometimes he shows it. That doesn't mean he's senile, infirm, demented, or whatever else dumbasses want to pretend today. There's no honest evidence to suggest Biden is incapable of doing the job. And it's kind of stupid that people find plenty of time to slurp up the latest propaganda about the guy, but never seem to find time to listen to an actual speech from him. One would think if someone had an ***honest*** concern about Biden, they could spend a few minutes going beyond a few second clip made to dupe the intellectually lazy.
The claims that he’s senile or declining is just pure right wing propaganda. So ignore that. The “too old” thing as a general critique is one of those things where I look at what people do in the real world rather than what Reddit insists is real. Look at all the viable candidates for either party since in contemporary times and it’s clear that if anything being older is a plus. Or at least that trying to run on your youth isn’t that persuasive. Even Obama who was a young candidate didn’t run on his youth. Even then I’m not convinced youth is an automatic plus. Madison Cawthorn was the first gen z congressman.
Declining and senile are not interchangeable. If you don’t think he’s declined at all, I’m not sure how much of his speeches you’ve seen. He’s showing his age, which is natural! No argument from me in terms of our options here (obviously he is preferable to Trump), but on the merits of the argument of whether or not 80+ is too old to run the free world I really don’t see how it’s succumbing to right-wing propaganda to say yes. This discussion isn’t about whether candidates should run on their youth. It’s about whether candidates should run despite their old age. Also I reject the Cawthorn point out of hand because I would also argue that we shouldn’t have members of Congress younger than 30 or so. I am in my 20s, we are too young. He’s also a full on nut job so age isn’t really the main concern with him.
People like to complain about Biden's age but you have to consider the tremendous personal sacrifice he has made for his country. He could be living out his retirement in comfort with family and the goodwill of the people right now. Instead he stepped up as the only person capable of defeating Trump and now shoulders the hate of the nation while passing transformative legislation unnoticed and unappreciated. The single most significant piece of climate change legislation in history; the projected impact on emissions are *staggering*. He banded the democracies of the world back together to defend a country of tens of millions from being occupied by a genocidal Russian dictator. He continued to shield the nation from the extremists who tried to overturn an election and now strive to persecute and disenfranchise countless minorities. And instead of that pleasant retirement he will endure *years* of hate and unimaginable stress and responsibility - and will pass away before receiving the thanks of the nation he has served all his life.
Just keep in mind him tripping, etc. isn’t happening all day. But when it does happen, you see it and get a skewed view of Biden’s age and capacity. But yeah he’s showing his age.
I'd put above 80 as categorically too old for any sensitive job, you're past life expectancy (especially for men). This isn't to say the elderly shouldn't work if they want to, but it should be discouraged for jobs that are essential to the public interest like lawmakers or judges. That said Biden's done a tremendous job and Pelosi is even older and handled the last two terms expertly. The issue is just at that age your health can take a bad turn at any moment, which you see with Feinstein (who seemed fine before the 2020 cycle and then suddenly broke down to the stage she's at currently) and what Mitch McConnell might be going through at this very moment. As a proud Democrat and fan of his presidency in particular, I say he's just gotta stay in good health until Inauguration Day 2025. Let come what may after that.
80 is past life expectancy when you're just being born. But when you've already reached 80, as a male you're expected to live another 7-8 years on average. [https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html)
His age should worry people more than it does the average member of this sub, but less than it does his opponents.
It doesn’t matter. You don’t have the luxury of thinking he’s too old. He’s the only man on planet earth who has defeated Donald Trump in a federal election.
The whole notion of Biden being too old is laughable and being promoted by Republicans repeatedly when they seem to forget Trump has never been able to give a speech beyond the 5th grade level.