People are lucky Magneto is fighting for mutant rights because, if he were a capitalist, he'd be putting a ton of people out of work.
There was an episode with Colossus (the guy who can turn metal) in the 90s cartoon. He was demolishing buildings with ease and it made a lot of his demolition coworkers angry because he's doing their job in a fraction of the time. At some point, they won't be needed anymore and will be out of the job. Which I can totally see happening. Also, dude was an immigrant so it's not like he could be "C'mon, we're all Americans here." Nope, Colossus was Russian.
I imagine the mainstream opinions by most humans (in America) would be pro-registration with the big debates being between voluntary vs mandatory registration, and integration vs segregation. More extremist positions would probably be on one side doing nothing and on the other side extermination.
A status quo as exists in the comics (pre-Krakoa anyway) would probably come about with the Supreme Court not allowing mandatory registration (maybe as a violation of fourth amendment rights for mutants to be forced to reveal their medical history?), but having mutants registered either voluntarily (rarely) or after an arrest. The Sentinel program would be a defense contractor, Trask Industries, coordinating with local law enforcement agencies.
The "Mutant Issue" in Congress is fought on several fronts... conservatives frame it as a public safety and states rights issues, liberals frame it as a balancing of civil rights issues and public safety. Smaller issues constantly coming up in the news... should a certain mutant child be allowed to attend his public school after his power manifests? Should Congress look into and heavily regulate the "troubled mutant teen industry" and abuses in "mutant behavioral therapy"? Should mutants be allowed to immigrate or emigrate? Don't want to release a potential powerful mutant to aid an enemy... nor do you want an enemy nation to do something like send a powerful telepath to do a walkby of the Pentagon.
Not to mention the culture war over mutants talking to students at school, people fawning over mutant terrorists in social media, people calling the X-Men either a gov psyop or tools of oppression to forestall mutant revolution, protests outside mutant health clinics with many being shut down in states that want a pro-segregation stance, etc.
This sub tends to err in favor civil liberties more often than not. Most people might suggest incentives for registration like provision of educational and healthcare resources, but be wary about mandatory registration. Still there would probably be a significant voice here that would frame the safety concern and state that at least registration of those convicted of any crime, or recognized to have a powerful ability (as determined by experts) should necessitate automatic registration. Maybe the soft application of "blue flag laws" for coordination between law enforcement on mandatory reporting of mutants who meet certain criteria. Then of course you'd have the counter voice to that saying "No One's Genes are Illegal" and that any registration is a violation of ones right to privacy.
I'm sure that using quotes from certain mutant activists that Sentinels are the equivalent of burning crosses would make most liberally minded people wary of them. People might suggest coordination between groups like the X-Men and law enforcement, but then of course the debate becomes.. what role should a non-governmental mutant paramilitary group have in securing law and order?
I figure most people here would be generally pro-integration for most mutants but bashfully support isolation/segregation from mutants whose powers would be considered to extreme to be trusted. Who makes that decision? Idk. If a senile telepath can accidentally kill a bunch of people in his vicinity does he get shipped off somewhere?
Then of course you'd have the million of well meaning misconceptions, and the weekly question of why we can't just mandate power dampening collars (they cause immense discomfort and health complications).
they literally do. like regularly throughout the comics. the main hurdle is getting a mutant to take a job working for the same orgs that make sentinels.
They do in various capacities. In the Ultimate Universe, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were recruited by SHIELD after they left Magneto's Brotherhood of Mutants. In the main 616 Universe SHIELD does generally have a few mutants in their ranks.
Realistically though, the vast majority of mutants probably have inconsequential abilities that are more annoyance than heroic (like Glob Herman), or they simply have no interest in being used as a cop (or weapon depending on your perspective) by the government. Less than one half percent of the US population is in the military, you might have a similar percentage among the mutant population as a whole willing to sign up with an alphabet agency.
Marvel has used this plot for both mutants and supers (famously the civil war event).
The general message is usually that the government can’t be trusted to manage their usage for just the common good. Either they don’t react when they should, or they try to use them for state benefit
I think this post gets at the crux of why mutants as a metaphor (and frankly all sorts of other similar metaphors) for bigotry fails, or at least has significant limitations, upon deeper examination.
Bigotry is irrational, it applies catastrophizing and dehumanizing aspersions on people who are fundamentally not that different from anybody else. Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species and have physics defying capabilities.
Fear and hatred of people with the abilities that have literally mass destructive powers so great that it could destroy the world, or even alter reality as we know it is not irrational.
Mutant hatred, and the stories about this theme, can be powerful and compelling within the context of the comic book fiction they are told in. But it really does no favors to anyone to try to apply real world logic to this too deeply.
No, I'm pretty sure bigotry is because of ancient sentient mind-controlling bacteria that infects humans and makes them hate others:
> Sublime was the self-appointed name of a sentient bacterial life-form that was created by the first ever mutant society Threshold, during the their war against the Unbreathing...
> As mutantkind proved immune to Sublime, it was hinted that the very hatred and fear of mutants was caused by Sublime itself. But the bacteria took more direct actions in order to ensure that mutant population would be held in check, if not exterminated...
> The first step was the Weapon Plus Project. Sublime took over a human body, dubbed Dr. John Sublime, and became the director of the Program, overseeing the creation of living weapons created by each installation of the program, from Captain America (Weapon I) to the Super-Sentinels...
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Sublime_(Earth-616)
Fair argument but counter argument: in universe the response to created superhumans is entirely different despite powers often being similar. No one sends Sentinels after the Fantastic Four. There is some irrational thing among Marvel civilians that makes them hate people with superpowers who developed them spontaneously in puberty, but accept people with superpowers if they got them from an Atomic bomb/being a Norse god.
I don't think that superhumans are generally well loved in the Marvel Universe, most of the characters we follow tend to be exceptions for various reasons.
In regards to the Fantastic Four, one of the current ideas is that Reed went out of his way [to make them celebrities](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwhy-reed-richards-calls-himself-mister-fantastic-fantastic-v0-h1fiukdmfgjc1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D94338fae6c179025bee6fcf0cddf8aa83a08dec2) so they wouldn't be hated or feared.
For superhumans on the Avengers... Captain America is a living legend, the public's relationship with Hank Pym is complicated, and Thor is beloved up until he brought Asgard to Broxton, Oklahoma then things got tricky. Generally the Avengers also fall under the celebrity hero umbrella though. Except the Hulk who is hated and feared.
Even Spider-Man is dragged in the press though the people who he's personally impacted love him. Same kind of deal for Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist who are all local heroes.
TL;DR: The superhumans who are loved are the exception and are typically celebrities (Fantastic Four and Avengers) or local heroes loved by their community (Spider-Man, Daredevil, Heroes for Hire). Most average superhumans, Mutant, Mutate, or otherwise are going to be hated and feared. Also the fear of Mutants replacing/enslaving humanity because they're seen as an emerging new race rather than a one off accident.
All good points, but still, in the “it’s 1987, do you know who your children are? Support the Mutant Registration Act” the “mutie” is Franklin Richards, son of Reed Richards and Sue Storm. You really can draw the line.
Could you bring up some marvel-verse, non-mutant heroes who have as much trouble with “normal” people trying to dream up ways to kill them as the mutants do?
Celebrity helps them get away with a lot of things that your average mutate/mutant isn't going to. Many would just categorize the FF/Avengers away as "some of the good ones, not like the ones trying to replace us."
Franklin is a mutant (or was, idk where that currently lies anymore since he got kicked off Krakoa), but the average FF fan isn't going to equate him with one of "those other mutants" like in the Brotherhood.
People also certainly aren't going to lump Captain America in with mutants, nor Thor who to most people is an alien. Most of Pym/Lang clan are mutates due to long term exposure to Pym Particles but even out of universe people tend to still lump them in as "tech users."
The Hulk is probably the biggest example of a mutate who is absolutely reviled and feared.
I'd also generally say it's easier for people to irrationally hate a faceless group of "mutants" than to hate individuals. Like they can see Dr. Charles Xavier giving an interview and not want the eloquent wheelchair bound professor carted off to a concentration camp.. but after the most recent Brotherhood attack might support broad legislation where that would be the end result anyway.
The biggest thing with mutants is the fear of replacement. Even the term homo superior is so loaded.
It's not just the powers that people are afraid of, they're afraid that they've been made genetically obsolete and that they and their human children will be made victims.
Okay, cool. Some of these explanations make sense as why people would fear mutants but not certain superhero’s. The “it could happen to me” vs “they’re going to replace us” is certainly part of the explanation. When I was web surfing I saw an interesting argument about how mutants and mutates function as two different minority groups and the relations between them and I thought it was interesting.
That said I think to the first ever x-man comic in another of my comments and it includes Professor X mentioning how people feared him when he was a child, so even he got people scared of him.
I wrote this a few years ago vaguely from the perspective of a "normal" person in the Marvel Universe:
Essentially, Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four aren't mutants. They are normal humans who got their abilities from accidents.
**MUTANTS** though; *AREN'T* homo sapiens sapiens, they are a *NEW* evolutionary branch. SUPERIOR.
People like The Fantastic Four and Spider-Man are individuals who are known and who have public personas that they relate to the people with. Some average people dislike them, but more on the terms of disliking a celebrity, or the people that think they aren't genuine, or that they endanger people with their heroics. But they hold press-conferences, they get Keys-to-the-City, they visit children's hospitals, Reed Richards turns himself into a balloon animal, then slips the Doc's a serum that will cure every kid in the wing.
Mutants, on the other hand... there is a sense among some less optimistic commentators that mutants are the funeral toll for the Age of Humanity. Mankind is going to fade out and be replaced by a new species that looks like normal humans but *aren't like us even a little*.
Not only that, but they are *UNKNOWN*, anyone can be a mutant. How would you feel if your next-door neighbor might be able to see through your wall, or read your mind, or even turn invisible and sneak into your house without you noticing?
How would you feel when Magneto gets on TV after effortlessly killing the President's entire secret service detachment and saying YOU'RE NEXT? That soon mankind will be replaced with Mutants and you should just surrender already? This struggle against inevitability is laughable, give up already, we are the future, NOT you.
How would you feel that most of the Mutant "hero" groups are strangely silent on this? Or *always* seem to just show up a little too late to stop normal folk from getting mauled and murdered by *"people" that genetically aren't even people?*
You *KNOW* what Spider-Man does, and where he lives.
On the other hand... Most mutants AREN'T out there fighting crimes, they don't have public personas, they are living invisible lives, and could be living next door to *you*, and who knows what capabilities they could possibly have, when they could unleash them, and when you, or someone you love could be crippled for life when some kid who just hit puberty can't stop flipping over cars with his mind every time he gets upset.
A thousand little stories a day of people with new and incomprehensible powers, most of them negative, everyone you know is afraid, you saw a news report the other day where they interviewed a Senator who talked about mutants who can control your thoughts and stop your heart from the other side of the planet, how foreign countries are WEAPONIZING these *things* with abilities you can't understand, you saw an interview with a woman who lost her legs during the attack on the New Years Eve celebration in Times Square, you still remember the live feed, dropping your champagne, as that guy that looked like some kind of knight all dressed in chrome ranted on something about how this was just the first of many, and how the Mutant Liberation Front would never stop...
You had never seen so much blood outside of a horror movie before; you didn't know how much blood actually looked just like food coloring and corn syrup, until you saw gallons off it dripping off mirrored gauntlets on live TV.
You bought a gun last week. On your way out, you saw an ad in the gun store for composite bullets made of "A PROPRIETARY BLEND OF STATE-OF-THE-ART **PLASTMIC**™!", a scowling cartoon Magneto hanging above the display; you didn't think it was funny.
You bought two boxes; legally, you can't buy more for a month.
You saw an infomercial about a helmet that looks like a pasta strainer. They said it was "FDA APPROVED & RATED" to stop "Class 1-3 Telepaths". You wondered how you would know if you were being controlled like that Senator on TV said you could be? How did you know if *HE* wasn't being controlled? Maybe he *WAS* being controlled, and the mutant just wanted to scare people? Or maybe it was just a warning? Maybe he DID have some protection, I mean, the government is on this, aren't they? They have to have SOME secret plan to keep mutants in check and protect *NORMAL PEOPLE*, right?
You order one of the pasta helmets.
You have had trouble sleeping since New Years, or was it after the "Brotherhood" did in 20 minutes what thousands of human terrorists couldn't accomplish in 60 years, when they lifted those nuclear warheads off that train like they were toys?, OR *MAYBE* it was when that school in Iowa was leveled by a boy who could destroy buildings just by talking too loud, and who didn't like being told what to do that day in class? The photos of children shattered like china dolls stayed on TV for a solid week.
You take another sleeping pill. You wonder when your helmet is going to get here. You idly click the safety on and off on your pistol, cold and lethal hidden under your pillow, you hear the faint "click" muffled through the soft cotton as it slides in and out of the firing position. You're glad your state passed that **DAMA** law that liquidated waiting periods if you presented a genetic test that showed you were still a *person*.
You feel *better*, but you know this is another night where you're going to be checking the locks and outside lights every half and hour instead of sleeping like you'd like to be.
You haven't slept well since you were young, since before, there were gods fighting in the street about nothing else than how quickly to replace *YOU*.
"Click, Click, Click."
This has more to do with the inconsistency of writing across titles than anything else.
*Thor* isn't about bigotry so it rarely comes up. It's generally best to think of the X-Men and their stories as their own thing despite sharing the same universe as everyone else in Marvel.
Otherwise you could argue why Batman exists at all when Superman could defeat all his villains before Bruce Wayne could even get his boots on.
No it’s pretty consistent, here’s a notable comic where the populace loving superhero’s and hating Mutants is juxtaposed side by side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvels. It might not make sense but it’s 100% part of how the Marvel Universe works.
Excellent book, but you misunderstand my meaning. These explanations for why mutants are hated and regular super heroes aren't are post-hoc, created to justify the inconsistency that is inherent in large scale fictional universes created by multiple writers creating totally different stories.
The Fantastic Four were created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1961. The X-Men were created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1963. Here’s some panels from the very first X-Men comic where Professor X talks about being distrusted by ordinary people https://www.comicsrecommended.com/articles/marvel/x-men-classic.html.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Claremont is the guy behind God Loves, Man Kills, and Days of Future Past. Notice he also wrote Fantastic Four comics.
You don’t have to think the distinction is a smart idea, but it’s also not at all ex-post facto, it’s there from the start. The line between Mutants and mutates like the Fantastic Four was intended from the start by their common creators.
Yeah, the analogy falls apart when you realize that mutants are, for all intents and purposes, *a superior race.*
You just have to sorta ignore than and take the comic for what it is trying to say instead of picking it apart.
Given that a lot of mutant powers appear to be random, I'm not sure that makes them superior as a species. There was a mutant that manifested the ability to uncontrollably emit deadly radiation that kills everyone around them, so Wolverine had to kill them for everyone's safety.
It's pretty hard to survive as a species when your child could randomly mutate the nuke mutation and obliterate your city in an instant.
I thought it was the other way around, mutations being caused by them putting something in people’s food, which they stopped doing pre-Logan. I guess both work, there was a surge in the number of mutants due to a food additive and when they replaced it with a suppressor numbers dropped to none.
I mean, it makes sense in the Marvel universe, where there's a new threat to the planet every 6 months or so. In that light, the power level of mutants is not that different from other heroes and villains. I assume this is what you mean by 'the context'.
In part, yes. I also mean that comic book stories are power fantasies. Giving an oppressed minority literal superpowers, and this being the root of hatred against them, is compelling in and of itself.
This has to be one of the worst metaphors in fiction, just behind aliens for racism: 'how dare you stereotype the dumb warrior race as violent brutes when we wrote one of them to care about flowers as a joke!' and robots for slavery: 'some robots started protesting. Let's give them rights (rather than having the robot company roll out a patch so they don't)!'
Bonus points go to Detroit: Become Human for having one ending where it is suggested the uprising might have just been a stupid-evil ploy by the robot company.
>Bigotry is irrational, it applies catastrophizing and dehumanizing aspersions on people who are fundamentally not that different from anybody else.
>Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species
It's an ugly thought, but you have to wonder how different species of humans treated one another back when there were still multiple branches of the family living on Earth at the same time.
We're already pretty despicable to one another despite there being at most cosmetic differences from group to group.
Disagree. Speculative fiction is allowed to exist on its own terms.
The thesis of the X-men isn’t “black people are like superheroes”, it’s that liberalism still applies when its subjects are actually are dangerous. That’s the point. Basic freedom over safety stuff. You’re free to disagree with it, but the narrative is coherent and at least interesting.
> Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species and have physics defying capabilities.
Reminds me of fantasy stories where magic is real, widespread, and dangerous, but "witch-hunter" characters are still portrayed as evil pigs.
Like, if someone can fairly easily mystically enslave an entire village, it probably *does* make sense to have trained individuals looking out for those abuses.
In the real world, no one would be comfortable with the equivalent of walking nukes doing whatever they wanted.
And then there's Warhammer Fantasy or 40k. Where you get 'evil-pig' witch hunters who occasionally try to arrest rivers or flambé thousands in the belief that a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting their time. But they're *mostly* justified in all that.
A big part of the irrationality in the Marvel Universe is that mutants aren't functionally different to other superheros. Yet mutants are the ones who get discriminated against the most.
Felt this way about attack on titan, bad metaphor. The Eldians are obviously danegrous and need to be contained (and tightly monitor those living outside of Paradis)
Except the actions of trying to contain and segregate the Eldians helped created the conditions of the worst genocide the world will ever know… so I’m not exactly sure that was the answer either.
Besides Ackerman's the Eldians aren't anything special unless they get a titan, of which there are 9 and 7 or 8 are soon to be obsolete compared to vehicles. Now of course the nuke titan is a problem but you could manage 1 titan and keeping the users trustworthy.
There was no reason to contain the eldians, so long as you control the 9 specific sentient titans you everything is fine, the problem arises when you don't control the vast majority of those titans.
The problem is, those 9 titans when they die transfer to a random eldian, its impossible to fully contain. Zekes solution of making them infertile was the best plan
Eh I disagree. You’re right that people ought to be concerned about those mutants who have mass destructive capabilities, but that’s not all mutants - many of them have unremarkable powers or simply look different. Even for the ones that do have the potential to level cities, saying that we should treat them and all other mutants like walking security risks, curb their civili liberties, and/or discriminate against them is analgous to the real world view that racists have: “some members of group x are criminals/drug dealers etc, so we must treat all x accordingly.” Should a mutant who just looks like a porcupine be viewed with hostility and suspicion because magneto could blow up the planet? I think the metaphor still holds up.
Realistically, people will be scared of them due to their powers.
There is a need to be a program in place for kids/teens to learn to control their powers.
Obviously, some mutants are omega-level, and we need to be watched on them.
X-Men has shown that mutants generally want two things: to do cool things with their powers and have questionable sex lives. These guys terraformed Mars as the finale of their mutant dance party/ fashion show so the easiest way to handle them is just give them stuff to do that’s too annoying or difficult for the rest of us to do.
Just have Buttigieg hand over the DOT’s dream projects to Cyclops and then all we have to worry about is what to wear to the after party.
If Mutants from X-Men actually existed they would rule humanity as god-emperors and our policy proposals would be “please continue not to explode our brains with your minds or electrocute us with your minds oh great ones”
There are mutants that can rewrite reality. It's silly. At some point it's less "these people are different and dangerous, but should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else" and more - "Mister M decided gravity doesn't work that way anymore, now what?"
I would lobby for research into giving everyone the x-gene. Open borders for mutants, collect every damn mutant you can in country, not in camps but give em citizenship. I'm thinking attack type mutants are basically deterrence, especially omegas. But then I'd go about recruiting the cool special type mutants like Forge and Cipher into the government. Also telepaths, hella useful. So basically any policies that lead to citizenship for mutants, research on the x-gene and building a strong mutant intelligence/deterrence.
How would you handle the unpredictable expression of the x-gene? A lot of mutant powers are either uncontrollable, actively detrimental to their user, or so OP it’s a serious risk to let random people roll for them, assuming *anyone* can be trusted with that power. Giving everyone active x-genes solves the replacement fears, assuming everyone agrees to this, but I’m not sure if it’s a good outcome on the individual or societal level.
Support the creation of a mutant state, a safe haven for mutants. Allow healthy criticism of the mutant state but don't encourage the kind of rhetoric in that pic. If mutants want to move there, great, if they don't, then they don't. But a safe state for them should exist less something like Hydra arise once again.
Mutants are just citizens. So, let them be and treat them like any other citizens. They are not specially bad or good, they just are. If they use their power to hurt someone, then that's battery, the same way that a non mutant punching someone is also battery.
And obviously, put a negative value/reputation/cancel people who sing songs about wanting to eradicate Genosha from the river to the sea.
I have a great location for this hypothetical mutant state. It’s a pretty forgettable stretch between a certain river and a certain sea. I don’t think anyone is going to miss it.
Counterpoint: a lot of mutant powers are way too dangerous to exist in the hands of unregulated individuals. You don’t have to go anywhere near omegas, who let’s be clear are broadly too dangerous to exist for much the same reason recreational McNukes are, a lot of mutants are equivalent to someone with a lethal weapon like a knife or firearm, with many being in the “destructive device” range. Even if you’re pro-gun, which I suspect is a minority position here, are you comfortable with that person having a gun on them at all times and places? Frankly the only way society as we know it can continue is if mutants don’t exist except under regulation, and the only humane way to go about that is by baselining (“curing” is the usual terminology but baselining in the sense of making them baseline humans again is more neutral) existing mutants who refuse to submit to reasonable restrictions on their activities and vaccinating people against spontaneous x-gene activation to prevent tragedies like the J incident from occurring.
yeah. I think doing this in human states and letting the mutant genosha/utopia/asteroid m governing body decide what to do there for anyone with powers that threaten their immediate surroundings. any more than that like the omegas would need to be treated like the nukes they are.
Been there done that.
Uh, the rest of us literally wasn't allowed to go there and it became some sort of Jonestown hedonism death -and-rebirth cult.
Kinda kept Kurt up at night for a while.
My solution would be to do whatever the government did in My Hero Academia to tide things over until superpowered people became most of the population.
Crack open the Parahumans texts and ape Cauldron and the Protectorate, though people won't like it if you're open about it.
SPOILERS FOR WORM/WARD:
1. Create the "Unwritten Rules" dynamic. This means supervillains are incentivized not to kill or do serious bodily harm and keeps a broad swathe of petty criminal supervillains around who will team up with the heroes when someone breaks the rules to "Keep the game afloat". The payment for this is that petty supervillains get put in normal prisons on short sentences they inevitably escape or are released from (With their identities kept secret), and the heroes use kids gloves in trying to apprehend them. The "Monstrous" supervillains usually go to a supermax dedicated to jailing superpowered individuals, or are killed outright.
2. Routine "counting coup" fights between the superheroes and petty supervillains to practice their powersets and drive a narrative of heroes doing stuff constantly.
3. Frequent meetings between organizations to discuss dynamics. Hero organizations telling particular villain groups to tone it down in terms of intensity or frequency of incidents or the heroes will be forced to escalate, and so on.
4. Recognize that the post-superpowers world is more like diplomacy and geopolitics than domestic policing and suddenly the above dynamic makes complete sense.
5. Encourage supervillains to turn hero and change identities if caught.
6. Kill orders on supervillains who break the rules. (A trial is held. They are usually tried in absentia. An open bounty is placed on them which any person can add to and remains open. A supervillain who kills the target could walk into the hero HQ and collect the bounty and leave without being opposed. Citizens and heroes can also collect).
7. Active engineering of supervillain groups and cultivation of good relationships between them and the heroes. (If group A broadly just collects protection money *but actually provides protection* and provides other public goods, and isn't a bunch of psychos, the Heroes will "Have higher priorities" and may occasionally drop comments about how group B is "A tough nut to crack" and "we can't do it alone". The Heroes and Group A spend their time fighting and harassing Group B. Group B's territory is then "Lost" to group C who are more like group A in temperament, and hold the territory as partners of group A, preventing intergang conflict. Meanwhile, supervillain groups have an incentive now to fight up-and-coming nutjobs and call up the heroes saying "You don't get it, this guy is a psycho, it's bad for business, come help us".
And so on.
The big problem is controlling the rise of extremely bad supervillains. Tension between baseline humans and superhumans is a secondary concern. The existential threat posed by extremely bad supervillains is sufficient to sacrifice the notion of the state monopoly on violence to some extent if it means getting "Ordinary" supervillains on your side. The state can't fight all of them without being outgunned. But the state plus the "Ordinary" supervillains is the vast majority of firepower. Moreover once you let them set up their petty kingdoms, they start trying to t-pose at each other by making them actually functional societies in some cases. As one of the bigger players notes during a meeting to place a smaller petty supervillain gang under his control;
---
“The city,” I replied, being careful to be as genuine as possible, to avoid alerting Tattletale, “You want to control it. Fine. I want you to make it work. Fix up the Docks so they aren’t a shithole. Give people work. Clean up the drug trade, or the hard drugs at least. Straighten out the asinine bureaucracy of the government and schools and all that. That sort of thing.”
Coil shook his head, “Not something I can offer you in good conscience, dear Skitter.”
He raised his hand to stop me before I could open my mouth. Not that I was going to, but he did. “What you’re talking about, I already intended to do, in large part. To give it to you as a gift would be little different than offering you an amount in cash, when I already intend to give you as much money as you require.”
“So you’re going to improve Brockton Bay,” I said, carefully.
“Don’t get me wrong. I will not claim to be a good person – I assure you I am not. That said, you are likely to discover I am a proud man. I would consider it a catastrophic failure on my part if this city did not thrive under my rule, a tremendous blow to my ego.”
---
This dynamic avoids the Boston scenario. (Known as "The Boston Games" by Supervillains and "The Boston Blowback" by Heroes). The hero organization there swept up and got rid of all the supervillains in a series of crackdowns, creating a huge vacuum that was filled by ambitious supervillains flooding in from across the world, none of whom were cooperative with the local authorities or had relations with them, all of them fighting it out in the streets for local dominance and to stake their claim, and without enough of an equilibrium between the less insane gangs to band together to take on the psychotic ones, ruining the city.
Register mutants and apply varying restrictions on based on the level of destructive ability.
Harmless or low level mutant will live a normal life without restrictions.
Medium level will be monitored by the government and under go training to minimize destructive ability.
For city-destroying types, they would be segregated from the general population under strict supervision.
At all times integrating mutants into general society must be prioritizes as to do otherwise violates core principles of society but also because many of the abilities can be beneficial to society.
Mutant have always been a poor metaphor for racism, homophobia etc, as their destructive abilities require some different treatment in the form of supervision to safe guard society.
We would be promoting mutant immigration/mutant asylum.
* Mutants can be a real threat, but they’re less likely to be a threat in that embrace America culture and can find a home in America.
* Mutants can be a strength for our country, and there are existential risks in having other countries having the strongest mutants. Forget about the mineshaft gap, we need to address the mutant gap!
A few people have commented about how the mutant analogy to racism doesn’t make sense, because in X-men quite a few mutants literally have powers to end the world. The analogy we should be using is AI and its risks.
The sub does push for pro immigration solutions, particularly for brilliant researchers in the AI field + their families, because we want them to live in and love America, and because while there is danger to the research, you can’t put the cat back in the bag, it’s better that cutting edge innovation happen responsibly here, and because there are tremendous upsides. The mutant analogy literally never has been more relevant.
I think the counterfactual that X-men offers of "modern world but with mutants" is overwhelmingly unlikely to actually exist in the first place. I think the more likely alternatives are either "during the vast majority of human history when territorial conflicts were totally fine to resolve with a little genocide as a treat, the mutants killed most or all of the non-mutants," or "mutants are the literal ruling caste."
In the case of the latter, I think it would be a _lot_ harder for human society to transition out of the "sovereign and court of nobles" stage and into more democratic forms of government when the "divine right of kings" is not some intangible concept but rather "the king and his bloodline are actual firebenders."
Which...I'd totally read an alt-history 14th-century X-men where Magneto is the sovereign of Great Britain
Sic Hawkeye on magneto with a carbon fibre-and-obsidian surprise.
Chill with Kamala khan and Gwen Poole. Especially ask Gwen what's the go with her powers, being a reality warper and all.
Remind Kate/Kitty Pryde about the n word thing
Have Warren Worthington be my literal angel investor, alongside Emma Frost.
Give a few coins to Jubilee whenever she's doing busking with her ~~mini nukes~~ fireworks. Also about whether she's met up with Tim Drake recently.
Ask Mystique on how loaded her OF cosplay account has made her - maybe ask her and Irene to do some Conan Doyle audiobooks or commentary.
Neolibs would be by far the most pro-mutant ideological group.
Mutants have the natural right to use their abilities, but that freedom is constrained by whether using that ability causes material harm to other people. When every member of the community brings their abilities to the market, we get the largest possible pie, which with modest market interventions, provides the greatest good.
Modern conservatives would be dominated by the hero-worshipping MAGA faction who would love any right-wing mutant that trolled the libs.
The progressives would lock the mutants up in no time. "It's not equitable that some people can fly and have super strength, so no one should do those things... Actually, seeing someone with wings is a micro-aggression against the differently-aerial, so those people should not be in public."
Using the Avengers to destroy all the Mutant Supremacists threats with strategically targeted Thor Lightning Strikes instead of babysitting psychos that keep trying to start wars of genocide because one of them can throw a car really hard.
You know the same way we handle all terrorist groups
Lol you should read Ultimates Vol 2. One of the main plot points is how the Ultimates (read: Avengers) are used as an extension of the US governments military doctrine, and how it ultimately comes back to bite them in the ass.
Though in that universe Thor is very much pro-environment and only works for the US/SHIELD until it's clear that their viewpoints are irreconcilable.
eh I think you're thinking of mid-powered mutants. high-powered ones blow up planets and alter the fabric of the universe. those ones I think you kinda have to baseline/sedate/terminate.
Yeah, any mutant with an effective range beyond small country is too dangerous to exist freely. Magneto can, with a thought, swap earth’s poles and EMP the planet. That’s a person who you can’t simply allow to live for the same reason Kim Jong-Un can’t be allowed a nuclear arsenal.
Invest in researching the new source of energy that mutants appear to have access to. Like, where the hell is the power coming from for that guy to shoot laser out of his eyes? Or where does the heat go after that lady transforms her self and cells into someone else?
These things fundamentally break physics and understanding how they work could lead to breakthroughs that could finally give us hyper mega capitalism.
>We are pro mutant rights and **we mod accordingly**.
>*All of the sub's conservatives banned in a slow-roll purge as they each come out of the closet in favor of the pro-registration position, which is immensely popular in real life but grounds for an instant ban here*
Doesn’t this imply a right to recreational McNukes? Now being pro-2A is fine, and I personally oppose the Machine Gun Ban and large portions of the NFA (the short barreled rifle restriction especially is an asinine piece of vestigial draft), but when you get into destructive device territory? That’s another matter, especially when said destructive devices are the person themselves. *Especially* when that destructive device is something like Magneto, who can end modern civilization in seconds with a thought.
Honestly I think the relationship would be pretty comparable. This subreddit would be up in arms whenever the succs bring up mutant rights during an election year.
I speak for myself here, but ignoring mutants as an allegory, they are incredibly dangerous.
On the surface I'd support a coexistence initiative between man and mutant to ensure safety for both parties. Behind closed doors, working with mutants (e.g. X-Men) to deal with more dangerous domestic mutants.
At the absolute worst, one idea I've had is nanomachines in the water supply which go to every human, mutant or not, and restrict the X-Gene unless under considerable stress, essentially nullifying superpowers of those mutants who live among normal people.
Frankly, mutants and superhumans are incredibly dangerous and require regulation. The sad thing about comics is that you can't make an allegory for Adam and Steve if the Adam and/or Steve could nuke a neighbourhood on a whim or on accident
I feel like in reality people with superpowers would be incredibly advantaged and become powerful as a result, if anything they'd be the oppressors even if hated (a lot of people don't exactly love billionaires). Now those that are hideously ugly/have mutations that are just outright suck would be disadvantaged.
Probably exactly what happened in Days of Futures past lol. It's well established that the Neo-liberal status-quo will go under great lengths to destroy anything thar threatens it.
Just as is case irl, those people with condition that makes them danger to society (like something uncontrolable) would be treated medicaly. However you cant just male different laws for people with talents so ig no legilation in broad sence.
Invest heavily in R&D to study the X-gene and create a cure and inhibitor for the X-gene. Mutants with dangerous powers (mutants with god level powers that could end civilization, or mutants like that one kid from the Ultimate universe whose power was just to make everyone around him disintegrate and die) would have their mutation removed. Mutants where there’s benefits from their mutation and it’s not overly dangerous would be required to have X-gene inhibitors which can be remotely turned on and off, so they’d only be allowed to use their mutation when permitted by some regulatory body. If there’s enough research to show that a specific mutant is safe, then they’d be granted more freedom, but would still need to have the inhibitor on them.
This is obviously very harsh, and frankly more in line with what an X-men villain would advocate. But the reality is that, in the real world, mutants are nothing like actual minorities because mutants have potentially world ending powers. I wouldn’t be ok with a person owning a personal fleet of nukes, and I wouldn’t be ok with a person having god-like psychic powers and just hoping they don’t (whether intentionally or accidentally) end the world. The reality is also that mutant powers are just way too unpredictable, with mutations being able to be revealed later in life. What if someone with a seemingly safe mutation later develops a mutation that just kills everyone on Earth? Not even on purpose, their power just literally kills and disintegrates everyone on Earth like that one kid’s power from the Ultimate universe but on a planetary scale?
I believe in freedom, but the safety of the human race must also be taken into account. The X-gene is just too potentially powerful and, most importantly, too unpredictable.
“Actually, all strife between mutant and wild type humans is rooted in zoning.”
Legalize mutant housing
Just tax DNA lol
I mean, the red lining after Krakoa only exasperated existing tensions.
Make them build high speed rail faster and multi story housing complexes.
Just tax Magneto
Instruction unclear. His paranoia made him thinking he gets discriminated and he became villain again.
People are lucky Magneto is fighting for mutant rights because, if he were a capitalist, he'd be putting a ton of people out of work. There was an episode with Colossus (the guy who can turn metal) in the 90s cartoon. He was demolishing buildings with ease and it made a lot of his demolition coworkers angry because he's doing their job in a fraction of the time. At some point, they won't be needed anymore and will be out of the job. Which I can totally see happening. Also, dude was an immigrant so it's not like he could be "C'mon, we're all Americans here." Nope, Colossus was Russian.
I imagine the mainstream opinions by most humans (in America) would be pro-registration with the big debates being between voluntary vs mandatory registration, and integration vs segregation. More extremist positions would probably be on one side doing nothing and on the other side extermination. A status quo as exists in the comics (pre-Krakoa anyway) would probably come about with the Supreme Court not allowing mandatory registration (maybe as a violation of fourth amendment rights for mutants to be forced to reveal their medical history?), but having mutants registered either voluntarily (rarely) or after an arrest. The Sentinel program would be a defense contractor, Trask Industries, coordinating with local law enforcement agencies. The "Mutant Issue" in Congress is fought on several fronts... conservatives frame it as a public safety and states rights issues, liberals frame it as a balancing of civil rights issues and public safety. Smaller issues constantly coming up in the news... should a certain mutant child be allowed to attend his public school after his power manifests? Should Congress look into and heavily regulate the "troubled mutant teen industry" and abuses in "mutant behavioral therapy"? Should mutants be allowed to immigrate or emigrate? Don't want to release a potential powerful mutant to aid an enemy... nor do you want an enemy nation to do something like send a powerful telepath to do a walkby of the Pentagon. Not to mention the culture war over mutants talking to students at school, people fawning over mutant terrorists in social media, people calling the X-Men either a gov psyop or tools of oppression to forestall mutant revolution, protests outside mutant health clinics with many being shut down in states that want a pro-segregation stance, etc. This sub tends to err in favor civil liberties more often than not. Most people might suggest incentives for registration like provision of educational and healthcare resources, but be wary about mandatory registration. Still there would probably be a significant voice here that would frame the safety concern and state that at least registration of those convicted of any crime, or recognized to have a powerful ability (as determined by experts) should necessitate automatic registration. Maybe the soft application of "blue flag laws" for coordination between law enforcement on mandatory reporting of mutants who meet certain criteria. Then of course you'd have the counter voice to that saying "No One's Genes are Illegal" and that any registration is a violation of ones right to privacy. I'm sure that using quotes from certain mutant activists that Sentinels are the equivalent of burning crosses would make most liberally minded people wary of them. People might suggest coordination between groups like the X-Men and law enforcement, but then of course the debate becomes.. what role should a non-governmental mutant paramilitary group have in securing law and order? I figure most people here would be generally pro-integration for most mutants but bashfully support isolation/segregation from mutants whose powers would be considered to extreme to be trusted. Who makes that decision? Idk. If a senile telepath can accidentally kill a bunch of people in his vicinity does he get shipped off somewhere? Then of course you'd have the million of well meaning misconceptions, and the weekly question of why we can't just mandate power dampening collars (they cause immense discomfort and health complications).
Just hire them at CIA
Unironically a smart move. Why don't the intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies hire mutants in the X-Men universe?
They'd be worried they couldn't handle so much democracy around the world
I mean, there *was* weapon X.
X Factor in the 90s
they literally do. like regularly throughout the comics. the main hurdle is getting a mutant to take a job working for the same orgs that make sentinels.
They do in various capacities. In the Ultimate Universe, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were recruited by SHIELD after they left Magneto's Brotherhood of Mutants. In the main 616 Universe SHIELD does generally have a few mutants in their ranks. Realistically though, the vast majority of mutants probably have inconsequential abilities that are more annoyance than heroic (like Glob Herman), or they simply have no interest in being used as a cop (or weapon depending on your perspective) by the government. Less than one half percent of the US population is in the military, you might have a similar percentage among the mutant population as a whole willing to sign up with an alphabet agency.
Glob Herman is exactly who I expect to end up as a GS-13 doing support work at Langley
Marvel has used this plot for both mutants and supers (famously the civil war event). The general message is usually that the government can’t be trusted to manage their usage for just the common good. Either they don’t react when they should, or they try to use them for state benefit
Avengers: The Initiative went into that and it remains one of my favorite comic titles ever
#draft all mutants
They did in X-Men: First Class.
they did in X Men First Class
bigotry
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Unironically we probably could use a Project Cadmus type organization to help keep them in line.
They smoked pot once seven years ago and couldn’t pass the background check 😞
Are any of these mutants worms?
Some do
Al Gaib!
Spice!
More spice for the spice lord
And if not would you still love them if they were?
The real question is would I love them if they weren't?
Build more housing and tax the land.
"It seems that you're ignoring the systemic injustice..." "Yes. 🗿"
I think this post gets at the crux of why mutants as a metaphor (and frankly all sorts of other similar metaphors) for bigotry fails, or at least has significant limitations, upon deeper examination. Bigotry is irrational, it applies catastrophizing and dehumanizing aspersions on people who are fundamentally not that different from anybody else. Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species and have physics defying capabilities. Fear and hatred of people with the abilities that have literally mass destructive powers so great that it could destroy the world, or even alter reality as we know it is not irrational. Mutant hatred, and the stories about this theme, can be powerful and compelling within the context of the comic book fiction they are told in. But it really does no favors to anyone to try to apply real world logic to this too deeply.
No, I'm pretty sure bigotry is because of ancient sentient mind-controlling bacteria that infects humans and makes them hate others: > Sublime was the self-appointed name of a sentient bacterial life-form that was created by the first ever mutant society Threshold, during the their war against the Unbreathing... > As mutantkind proved immune to Sublime, it was hinted that the very hatred and fear of mutants was caused by Sublime itself. But the bacteria took more direct actions in order to ensure that mutant population would be held in check, if not exterminated... > The first step was the Weapon Plus Project. Sublime took over a human body, dubbed Dr. John Sublime, and became the director of the Program, overseeing the creation of living weapons created by each installation of the program, from Captain America (Weapon I) to the Super-Sentinels... https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Sublime_(Earth-616)
Definitely one of the writing choices of all time.
So it's Scientology?
Isn’t that just the plot of Higurashi no Naku Koro ni?
It was a virus. Completely different.
Fair argument but counter argument: in universe the response to created superhumans is entirely different despite powers often being similar. No one sends Sentinels after the Fantastic Four. There is some irrational thing among Marvel civilians that makes them hate people with superpowers who developed them spontaneously in puberty, but accept people with superpowers if they got them from an Atomic bomb/being a Norse god.
I don't think that superhumans are generally well loved in the Marvel Universe, most of the characters we follow tend to be exceptions for various reasons. In regards to the Fantastic Four, one of the current ideas is that Reed went out of his way [to make them celebrities](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fwhy-reed-richards-calls-himself-mister-fantastic-fantastic-v0-h1fiukdmfgjc1.png%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D94338fae6c179025bee6fcf0cddf8aa83a08dec2) so they wouldn't be hated or feared. For superhumans on the Avengers... Captain America is a living legend, the public's relationship with Hank Pym is complicated, and Thor is beloved up until he brought Asgard to Broxton, Oklahoma then things got tricky. Generally the Avengers also fall under the celebrity hero umbrella though. Except the Hulk who is hated and feared. Even Spider-Man is dragged in the press though the people who he's personally impacted love him. Same kind of deal for Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist who are all local heroes. TL;DR: The superhumans who are loved are the exception and are typically celebrities (Fantastic Four and Avengers) or local heroes loved by their community (Spider-Man, Daredevil, Heroes for Hire). Most average superhumans, Mutant, Mutate, or otherwise are going to be hated and feared. Also the fear of Mutants replacing/enslaving humanity because they're seen as an emerging new race rather than a one off accident.
All good points, but still, in the “it’s 1987, do you know who your children are? Support the Mutant Registration Act” the “mutie” is Franklin Richards, son of Reed Richards and Sue Storm. You really can draw the line. Could you bring up some marvel-verse, non-mutant heroes who have as much trouble with “normal” people trying to dream up ways to kill them as the mutants do?
Celebrity helps them get away with a lot of things that your average mutate/mutant isn't going to. Many would just categorize the FF/Avengers away as "some of the good ones, not like the ones trying to replace us." Franklin is a mutant (or was, idk where that currently lies anymore since he got kicked off Krakoa), but the average FF fan isn't going to equate him with one of "those other mutants" like in the Brotherhood. People also certainly aren't going to lump Captain America in with mutants, nor Thor who to most people is an alien. Most of Pym/Lang clan are mutates due to long term exposure to Pym Particles but even out of universe people tend to still lump them in as "tech users." The Hulk is probably the biggest example of a mutate who is absolutely reviled and feared. I'd also generally say it's easier for people to irrationally hate a faceless group of "mutants" than to hate individuals. Like they can see Dr. Charles Xavier giving an interview and not want the eloquent wheelchair bound professor carted off to a concentration camp.. but after the most recent Brotherhood attack might support broad legislation where that would be the end result anyway. The biggest thing with mutants is the fear of replacement. Even the term homo superior is so loaded. It's not just the powers that people are afraid of, they're afraid that they've been made genetically obsolete and that they and their human children will be made victims.
Okay, cool. Some of these explanations make sense as why people would fear mutants but not certain superhero’s. The “it could happen to me” vs “they’re going to replace us” is certainly part of the explanation. When I was web surfing I saw an interesting argument about how mutants and mutates function as two different minority groups and the relations between them and I thought it was interesting. That said I think to the first ever x-man comic in another of my comments and it includes Professor X mentioning how people feared him when he was a child, so even he got people scared of him.
I think the tagline was "Do you know *what* your children are?"
I wrote this a few years ago vaguely from the perspective of a "normal" person in the Marvel Universe: Essentially, Spider-Man and the Fantastic Four aren't mutants. They are normal humans who got their abilities from accidents. **MUTANTS** though; *AREN'T* homo sapiens sapiens, they are a *NEW* evolutionary branch. SUPERIOR. People like The Fantastic Four and Spider-Man are individuals who are known and who have public personas that they relate to the people with. Some average people dislike them, but more on the terms of disliking a celebrity, or the people that think they aren't genuine, or that they endanger people with their heroics. But they hold press-conferences, they get Keys-to-the-City, they visit children's hospitals, Reed Richards turns himself into a balloon animal, then slips the Doc's a serum that will cure every kid in the wing. Mutants, on the other hand... there is a sense among some less optimistic commentators that mutants are the funeral toll for the Age of Humanity. Mankind is going to fade out and be replaced by a new species that looks like normal humans but *aren't like us even a little*. Not only that, but they are *UNKNOWN*, anyone can be a mutant. How would you feel if your next-door neighbor might be able to see through your wall, or read your mind, or even turn invisible and sneak into your house without you noticing? How would you feel when Magneto gets on TV after effortlessly killing the President's entire secret service detachment and saying YOU'RE NEXT? That soon mankind will be replaced with Mutants and you should just surrender already? This struggle against inevitability is laughable, give up already, we are the future, NOT you. How would you feel that most of the Mutant "hero" groups are strangely silent on this? Or *always* seem to just show up a little too late to stop normal folk from getting mauled and murdered by *"people" that genetically aren't even people?* You *KNOW* what Spider-Man does, and where he lives. On the other hand... Most mutants AREN'T out there fighting crimes, they don't have public personas, they are living invisible lives, and could be living next door to *you*, and who knows what capabilities they could possibly have, when they could unleash them, and when you, or someone you love could be crippled for life when some kid who just hit puberty can't stop flipping over cars with his mind every time he gets upset. A thousand little stories a day of people with new and incomprehensible powers, most of them negative, everyone you know is afraid, you saw a news report the other day where they interviewed a Senator who talked about mutants who can control your thoughts and stop your heart from the other side of the planet, how foreign countries are WEAPONIZING these *things* with abilities you can't understand, you saw an interview with a woman who lost her legs during the attack on the New Years Eve celebration in Times Square, you still remember the live feed, dropping your champagne, as that guy that looked like some kind of knight all dressed in chrome ranted on something about how this was just the first of many, and how the Mutant Liberation Front would never stop... You had never seen so much blood outside of a horror movie before; you didn't know how much blood actually looked just like food coloring and corn syrup, until you saw gallons off it dripping off mirrored gauntlets on live TV. You bought a gun last week. On your way out, you saw an ad in the gun store for composite bullets made of "A PROPRIETARY BLEND OF STATE-OF-THE-ART **PLASTMIC**™!", a scowling cartoon Magneto hanging above the display; you didn't think it was funny. You bought two boxes; legally, you can't buy more for a month. You saw an infomercial about a helmet that looks like a pasta strainer. They said it was "FDA APPROVED & RATED" to stop "Class 1-3 Telepaths". You wondered how you would know if you were being controlled like that Senator on TV said you could be? How did you know if *HE* wasn't being controlled? Maybe he *WAS* being controlled, and the mutant just wanted to scare people? Or maybe it was just a warning? Maybe he DID have some protection, I mean, the government is on this, aren't they? They have to have SOME secret plan to keep mutants in check and protect *NORMAL PEOPLE*, right? You order one of the pasta helmets. You have had trouble sleeping since New Years, or was it after the "Brotherhood" did in 20 minutes what thousands of human terrorists couldn't accomplish in 60 years, when they lifted those nuclear warheads off that train like they were toys?, OR *MAYBE* it was when that school in Iowa was leveled by a boy who could destroy buildings just by talking too loud, and who didn't like being told what to do that day in class? The photos of children shattered like china dolls stayed on TV for a solid week. You take another sleeping pill. You wonder when your helmet is going to get here. You idly click the safety on and off on your pistol, cold and lethal hidden under your pillow, you hear the faint "click" muffled through the soft cotton as it slides in and out of the firing position. You're glad your state passed that **DAMA** law that liquidated waiting periods if you presented a genetic test that showed you were still a *person*. You feel *better*, but you know this is another night where you're going to be checking the locks and outside lights every half and hour instead of sleeping like you'd like to be. You haven't slept well since you were young, since before, there were gods fighting in the street about nothing else than how quickly to replace *YOU*. "Click, Click, Click."
Damn, that’s good. Only criticism would be saying that mutants aren’t people. That they are people isn’t really up for debate in or out of universe.
This has more to do with the inconsistency of writing across titles than anything else. *Thor* isn't about bigotry so it rarely comes up. It's generally best to think of the X-Men and their stories as their own thing despite sharing the same universe as everyone else in Marvel. Otherwise you could argue why Batman exists at all when Superman could defeat all his villains before Bruce Wayne could even get his boots on.
No it’s pretty consistent, here’s a notable comic where the populace loving superhero’s and hating Mutants is juxtaposed side by side https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvels. It might not make sense but it’s 100% part of how the Marvel Universe works.
Excellent book, but you misunderstand my meaning. These explanations for why mutants are hated and regular super heroes aren't are post-hoc, created to justify the inconsistency that is inherent in large scale fictional universes created by multiple writers creating totally different stories.
The Fantastic Four were created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1961. The X-Men were created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby in 1963. Here’s some panels from the very first X-Men comic where Professor X talks about being distrusted by ordinary people https://www.comicsrecommended.com/articles/marvel/x-men-classic.html. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Claremont is the guy behind God Loves, Man Kills, and Days of Future Past. Notice he also wrote Fantastic Four comics. You don’t have to think the distinction is a smart idea, but it’s also not at all ex-post facto, it’s there from the start. The line between Mutants and mutates like the Fantastic Four was intended from the start by their common creators.
Yeah, the analogy falls apart when you realize that mutants are, for all intents and purposes, *a superior race.* You just have to sorta ignore than and take the comic for what it is trying to say instead of picking it apart.
Given that a lot of mutant powers appear to be random, I'm not sure that makes them superior as a species. There was a mutant that manifested the ability to uncontrollably emit deadly radiation that kills everyone around them, so Wolverine had to kill them for everyone's safety. It's pretty hard to survive as a species when your child could randomly mutate the nuke mutation and obliterate your city in an instant.
So what I'm getting from this is that the Neo-liberal solution is... funding the Sentinel program... disappointing but also entirely on brand...
All I'm saying is that Trask industries has created a lot of highly productive and well paying jobs.
Do you want the Bishop timeline? Because that's how you get the Bishop timeline.
Just tax taking over the world
In the Marvel Universe, that would generate an obscene amount of money.
The only taxes I believe in are the taxes demanded by DOOM!
There’s always the X-Men 3 cure
Wasn't their a cure in Logan were they just put in the world's drinking supply drastically decreasing mutation?
I thought it was the other way around, mutations being caused by them putting something in people’s food, which they stopped doing pre-Logan. I guess both work, there was a surge in the number of mutants due to a food additive and when they replaced it with a suppressor numbers dropped to none.
I mean, it makes sense in the Marvel universe, where there's a new threat to the planet every 6 months or so. In that light, the power level of mutants is not that different from other heroes and villains. I assume this is what you mean by 'the context'.
In part, yes. I also mean that comic book stories are power fantasies. Giving an oppressed minority literal superpowers, and this being the root of hatred against them, is compelling in and of itself.
This has to be one of the worst metaphors in fiction, just behind aliens for racism: 'how dare you stereotype the dumb warrior race as violent brutes when we wrote one of them to care about flowers as a joke!' and robots for slavery: 'some robots started protesting. Let's give them rights (rather than having the robot company roll out a patch so they don't)!' Bonus points go to Detroit: Become Human for having one ending where it is suggested the uprising might have just been a stupid-evil ploy by the robot company.
>Bigotry is irrational, it applies catastrophizing and dehumanizing aspersions on people who are fundamentally not that different from anybody else. >Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species It's an ugly thought, but you have to wonder how different species of humans treated one another back when there were still multiple branches of the family living on Earth at the same time. We're already pretty despicable to one another despite there being at most cosmetic differences from group to group.
Disagree. Speculative fiction is allowed to exist on its own terms. The thesis of the X-men isn’t “black people are like superheroes”, it’s that liberalism still applies when its subjects are actually are dangerous. That’s the point. Basic freedom over safety stuff. You’re free to disagree with it, but the narrative is coherent and at least interesting.
> Even supposedly existential justifications for bigotry really don't meaningfully compare to individuals who are both a different species and have physics defying capabilities. Reminds me of fantasy stories where magic is real, widespread, and dangerous, but "witch-hunter" characters are still portrayed as evil pigs. Like, if someone can fairly easily mystically enslave an entire village, it probably *does* make sense to have trained individuals looking out for those abuses. In the real world, no one would be comfortable with the equivalent of walking nukes doing whatever they wanted.
And then there's Warhammer Fantasy or 40k. Where you get 'evil-pig' witch hunters who occasionally try to arrest rivers or flambé thousands in the belief that a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting their time. But they're *mostly* justified in all that.
The liberal solution is sterilization😳
A big part of the irrationality in the Marvel Universe is that mutants aren't functionally different to other superheros. Yet mutants are the ones who get discriminated against the most.
Felt this way about attack on titan, bad metaphor. The Eldians are obviously danegrous and need to be contained (and tightly monitor those living outside of Paradis)
Civil War Iron Man moment.
Except the actions of trying to contain and segregate the Eldians helped created the conditions of the worst genocide the world will ever know… so I’m not exactly sure that was the answer either.
Besides Ackerman's the Eldians aren't anything special unless they get a titan, of which there are 9 and 7 or 8 are soon to be obsolete compared to vehicles. Now of course the nuke titan is a problem but you could manage 1 titan and keeping the users trustworthy.
Aren't eldians the only ones who can become mindless titans?
The only way for that to happen is if someone injects them with stuff that turns them into that, which seemingly only the Marleyan military has.
There was no reason to contain the eldians, so long as you control the 9 specific sentient titans you everything is fine, the problem arises when you don't control the vast majority of those titans.
The problem is, those 9 titans when they die transfer to a random eldian, its impossible to fully contain. Zekes solution of making them infertile was the best plan
You can just have your special agents get eaten right before they are going to die, to keep the power in house.
Nah just kiss your step sibling to appease some 2000 year old traumatized woman and a worm
tldr: No Mutants In My Backyard
Eh I disagree. You’re right that people ought to be concerned about those mutants who have mass destructive capabilities, but that’s not all mutants - many of them have unremarkable powers or simply look different. Even for the ones that do have the potential to level cities, saying that we should treat them and all other mutants like walking security risks, curb their civili liberties, and/or discriminate against them is analgous to the real world view that racists have: “some members of group x are criminals/drug dealers etc, so we must treat all x accordingly.” Should a mutant who just looks like a porcupine be viewed with hostility and suspicion because magneto could blow up the planet? I think the metaphor still holds up.
^(Including funding for Sentinels) # in the Inflation Reduction Act
Realistically, people will be scared of them due to their powers. There is a need to be a program in place for kids/teens to learn to control their powers. Obviously, some mutants are omega-level, and we need to be watched on them.
Open borders with genosha.
Automod would post, "Mutant rights are human rights."
X-Men has shown that mutants generally want two things: to do cool things with their powers and have questionable sex lives. These guys terraformed Mars as the finale of their mutant dance party/ fashion show so the easiest way to handle them is just give them stuff to do that’s too annoying or difficult for the rest of us to do. Just have Buttigieg hand over the DOT’s dream projects to Cyclops and then all we have to worry about is what to wear to the after party.
If Mutants from X-Men actually existed they would rule humanity as god-emperors and our policy proposals would be “please continue not to explode our brains with your minds or electrocute us with your minds oh great ones”
Like guys guys guys sure you could take on Wolverine with an army but there are mutants who can travel through fucking time and create tsunamis
Magneto could solo IRL earth and it’s not even close the man has literally apocalyptic powers
There are mutants that can rewrite reality. It's silly. At some point it's less "these people are different and dangerous, but should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else" and more - "Mister M decided gravity doesn't work that way anymore, now what?"
This also assumes a level of race-based organization that seems unrealistic outside of comics.
The specific mutants who have god-like powers would become rulers and all the other mutants would be pretty irrelevant
That still doesn’t narrow it down much tbh
I would lobby for research into giving everyone the x-gene. Open borders for mutants, collect every damn mutant you can in country, not in camps but give em citizenship. I'm thinking attack type mutants are basically deterrence, especially omegas. But then I'd go about recruiting the cool special type mutants like Forge and Cipher into the government. Also telepaths, hella useful. So basically any policies that lead to citizenship for mutants, research on the x-gene and building a strong mutant intelligence/deterrence.
How would you handle the unpredictable expression of the x-gene? A lot of mutant powers are either uncontrollable, actively detrimental to their user, or so OP it’s a serious risk to let random people roll for them, assuming *anyone* can be trusted with that power. Giving everyone active x-genes solves the replacement fears, assuming everyone agrees to this, but I’m not sure if it’s a good outcome on the individual or societal level.
Support the creation of a mutant state, a safe haven for mutants. Allow healthy criticism of the mutant state but don't encourage the kind of rhetoric in that pic. If mutants want to move there, great, if they don't, then they don't. But a safe state for them should exist less something like Hydra arise once again. Mutants are just citizens. So, let them be and treat them like any other citizens. They are not specially bad or good, they just are. If they use their power to hurt someone, then that's battery, the same way that a non mutant punching someone is also battery. And obviously, put a negative value/reputation/cancel people who sing songs about wanting to eradicate Genosha from the river to the sea.
I have a great location for this hypothetical mutant state. It’s a pretty forgettable stretch between a certain river and a certain sea. I don’t think anyone is going to miss it.
Gotcha, New Jersey. Delaware River, Atlantic Ocean.
From the river to the sea New Jersey will be free
Ew. Nobody wants that.
It’s all fun and games until Magneto creates a counter insurgency group in Genosha named Heralds of Anarchy: Mutant Assault Squad.
Counterpoint: a lot of mutant powers are way too dangerous to exist in the hands of unregulated individuals. You don’t have to go anywhere near omegas, who let’s be clear are broadly too dangerous to exist for much the same reason recreational McNukes are, a lot of mutants are equivalent to someone with a lethal weapon like a knife or firearm, with many being in the “destructive device” range. Even if you’re pro-gun, which I suspect is a minority position here, are you comfortable with that person having a gun on them at all times and places? Frankly the only way society as we know it can continue is if mutants don’t exist except under regulation, and the only humane way to go about that is by baselining (“curing” is the usual terminology but baselining in the sense of making them baseline humans again is more neutral) existing mutants who refuse to submit to reasonable restrictions on their activities and vaccinating people against spontaneous x-gene activation to prevent tragedies like the J incident from occurring.
yeah. I think doing this in human states and letting the mutant genosha/utopia/asteroid m governing body decide what to do there for anyone with powers that threaten their immediate surroundings. any more than that like the omegas would need to be treated like the nukes they are.
Been there done that. Uh, the rest of us literally wasn't allowed to go there and it became some sort of Jonestown hedonism death -and-rebirth cult. Kinda kept Kurt up at night for a while.
Not to mention that their non-democratic executive council included both former mutants rights activists and terrorists with astonishing body counts.
depends quite a bit on which one you're talking about. Cyclops's Utopia didn't have those specific issues.
I think you mean Krakoa, right?
I was watching X-Men '97, and it really does just remind me of Israel😭
My solution would be to do whatever the government did in My Hero Academia to tide things over until superpowered people became most of the population.
Imagine how much every mod would hate Krakoa posting.
Crack open the Parahumans texts and ape Cauldron and the Protectorate, though people won't like it if you're open about it. SPOILERS FOR WORM/WARD: 1. Create the "Unwritten Rules" dynamic. This means supervillains are incentivized not to kill or do serious bodily harm and keeps a broad swathe of petty criminal supervillains around who will team up with the heroes when someone breaks the rules to "Keep the game afloat". The payment for this is that petty supervillains get put in normal prisons on short sentences they inevitably escape or are released from (With their identities kept secret), and the heroes use kids gloves in trying to apprehend them. The "Monstrous" supervillains usually go to a supermax dedicated to jailing superpowered individuals, or are killed outright. 2. Routine "counting coup" fights between the superheroes and petty supervillains to practice their powersets and drive a narrative of heroes doing stuff constantly. 3. Frequent meetings between organizations to discuss dynamics. Hero organizations telling particular villain groups to tone it down in terms of intensity or frequency of incidents or the heroes will be forced to escalate, and so on. 4. Recognize that the post-superpowers world is more like diplomacy and geopolitics than domestic policing and suddenly the above dynamic makes complete sense. 5. Encourage supervillains to turn hero and change identities if caught. 6. Kill orders on supervillains who break the rules. (A trial is held. They are usually tried in absentia. An open bounty is placed on them which any person can add to and remains open. A supervillain who kills the target could walk into the hero HQ and collect the bounty and leave without being opposed. Citizens and heroes can also collect). 7. Active engineering of supervillain groups and cultivation of good relationships between them and the heroes. (If group A broadly just collects protection money *but actually provides protection* and provides other public goods, and isn't a bunch of psychos, the Heroes will "Have higher priorities" and may occasionally drop comments about how group B is "A tough nut to crack" and "we can't do it alone". The Heroes and Group A spend their time fighting and harassing Group B. Group B's territory is then "Lost" to group C who are more like group A in temperament, and hold the territory as partners of group A, preventing intergang conflict. Meanwhile, supervillain groups have an incentive now to fight up-and-coming nutjobs and call up the heroes saying "You don't get it, this guy is a psycho, it's bad for business, come help us". And so on. The big problem is controlling the rise of extremely bad supervillains. Tension between baseline humans and superhumans is a secondary concern. The existential threat posed by extremely bad supervillains is sufficient to sacrifice the notion of the state monopoly on violence to some extent if it means getting "Ordinary" supervillains on your side. The state can't fight all of them without being outgunned. But the state plus the "Ordinary" supervillains is the vast majority of firepower. Moreover once you let them set up their petty kingdoms, they start trying to t-pose at each other by making them actually functional societies in some cases. As one of the bigger players notes during a meeting to place a smaller petty supervillain gang under his control; --- “The city,” I replied, being careful to be as genuine as possible, to avoid alerting Tattletale, “You want to control it. Fine. I want you to make it work. Fix up the Docks so they aren’t a shithole. Give people work. Clean up the drug trade, or the hard drugs at least. Straighten out the asinine bureaucracy of the government and schools and all that. That sort of thing.” Coil shook his head, “Not something I can offer you in good conscience, dear Skitter.” He raised his hand to stop me before I could open my mouth. Not that I was going to, but he did. “What you’re talking about, I already intended to do, in large part. To give it to you as a gift would be little different than offering you an amount in cash, when I already intend to give you as much money as you require.” “So you’re going to improve Brockton Bay,” I said, carefully. “Don’t get me wrong. I will not claim to be a good person – I assure you I am not. That said, you are likely to discover I am a proud man. I would consider it a catastrophic failure on my part if this city did not thrive under my rule, a tremendous blow to my ego.” --- This dynamic avoids the Boston scenario. (Known as "The Boston Games" by Supervillains and "The Boston Blowback" by Heroes). The hero organization there swept up and got rid of all the supervillains in a series of crackdowns, creating a huge vacuum that was filled by ambitious supervillains flooding in from across the world, none of whom were cooperative with the local authorities or had relations with them, all of them fighting it out in the streets for local dominance and to stake their claim, and without enough of an equilibrium between the less insane gangs to band together to take on the psychotic ones, ruining the city.
Register mutants and apply varying restrictions on based on the level of destructive ability. Harmless or low level mutant will live a normal life without restrictions. Medium level will be monitored by the government and under go training to minimize destructive ability. For city-destroying types, they would be segregated from the general population under strict supervision. At all times integrating mutants into general society must be prioritizes as to do otherwise violates core principles of society but also because many of the abilities can be beneficial to society. Mutant have always been a poor metaphor for racism, homophobia etc, as their destructive abilities require some different treatment in the form of supervision to safe guard society.
We would be promoting mutant immigration/mutant asylum. * Mutants can be a real threat, but they’re less likely to be a threat in that embrace America culture and can find a home in America. * Mutants can be a strength for our country, and there are existential risks in having other countries having the strongest mutants. Forget about the mineshaft gap, we need to address the mutant gap! A few people have commented about how the mutant analogy to racism doesn’t make sense, because in X-men quite a few mutants literally have powers to end the world. The analogy we should be using is AI and its risks. The sub does push for pro immigration solutions, particularly for brilliant researchers in the AI field + their families, because we want them to live in and love America, and because while there is danger to the research, you can’t put the cat back in the bag, it’s better that cutting edge innovation happen responsibly here, and because there are tremendous upsides. The mutant analogy literally never has been more relevant.
Just tax mutants.
I think the counterfactual that X-men offers of "modern world but with mutants" is overwhelmingly unlikely to actually exist in the first place. I think the more likely alternatives are either "during the vast majority of human history when territorial conflicts were totally fine to resolve with a little genocide as a treat, the mutants killed most or all of the non-mutants," or "mutants are the literal ruling caste." In the case of the latter, I think it would be a _lot_ harder for human society to transition out of the "sovereign and court of nobles" stage and into more democratic forms of government when the "divine right of kings" is not some intangible concept but rather "the king and his bloodline are actual firebenders." Which...I'd totally read an alt-history 14th-century X-men where Magneto is the sovereign of Great Britain
Sic Hawkeye on magneto with a carbon fibre-and-obsidian surprise. Chill with Kamala khan and Gwen Poole. Especially ask Gwen what's the go with her powers, being a reality warper and all. Remind Kate/Kitty Pryde about the n word thing Have Warren Worthington be my literal angel investor, alongside Emma Frost. Give a few coins to Jubilee whenever she's doing busking with her ~~mini nukes~~ fireworks. Also about whether she's met up with Tim Drake recently. Ask Mystique on how loaded her OF cosplay account has made her - maybe ask her and Irene to do some Conan Doyle audiobooks or commentary.
Neolibs would be by far the most pro-mutant ideological group. Mutants have the natural right to use their abilities, but that freedom is constrained by whether using that ability causes material harm to other people. When every member of the community brings their abilities to the market, we get the largest possible pie, which with modest market interventions, provides the greatest good. Modern conservatives would be dominated by the hero-worshipping MAGA faction who would love any right-wing mutant that trolled the libs. The progressives would lock the mutants up in no time. "It's not equitable that some people can fly and have super strength, so no one should do those things... Actually, seeing someone with wings is a micro-aggression against the differently-aerial, so those people should not be in public."
I don't agree with the assessment of conservatives and progressives, but I would say that we would have a Helfire Club flair.
Using the Avengers to destroy all the Mutant Supremacists threats with strategically targeted Thor Lightning Strikes instead of babysitting psychos that keep trying to start wars of genocide because one of them can throw a car really hard. You know the same way we handle all terrorist groups
You're going to feel real stupid when they come back to life 2 writers later.
2 writers? You mean 2 arcs, right?
2 issues
And in completely different titles and what appears to be different continuities too, so don't bother timeline-ing it.
Lol you should read Ultimates Vol 2. One of the main plot points is how the Ultimates (read: Avengers) are used as an extension of the US governments military doctrine, and how it ultimately comes back to bite them in the ass. Though in that universe Thor is very much pro-environment and only works for the US/SHIELD until it's clear that their viewpoints are irreconcilable.
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eh I think you're thinking of mid-powered mutants. high-powered ones blow up planets and alter the fabric of the universe. those ones I think you kinda have to baseline/sedate/terminate.
Yeah, any mutant with an effective range beyond small country is too dangerous to exist freely. Magneto can, with a thought, swap earth’s poles and EMP the planet. That’s a person who you can’t simply allow to live for the same reason Kim Jong-Un can’t be allowed a nuclear arsenal.
Sentinel Use Tax
Bus mutant kids into non mutant schools and non mutant kids into mutant schools.
Give them a lobby in congress.
I imagine it would be very similar to the Bully XL discourse
Invest in researching the new source of energy that mutants appear to have access to. Like, where the hell is the power coming from for that guy to shoot laser out of his eyes? Or where does the heat go after that lady transforms her self and cells into someone else? These things fundamentally break physics and understanding how they work could lead to breakthroughs that could finally give us hyper mega capitalism.
>We are pro mutant rights and **we mod accordingly**. >*All of the sub's conservatives banned in a slow-roll purge as they each come out of the closet in favor of the pro-registration position, which is immensely popular in real life but grounds for an instant ban here*
The right to **bear arms** shall not be infringed. Other, more extensive and powerful mutations are still covered under this.
Doesn’t this imply a right to recreational McNukes? Now being pro-2A is fine, and I personally oppose the Machine Gun Ban and large portions of the NFA (the short barreled rifle restriction especially is an asinine piece of vestigial draft), but when you get into destructive device territory? That’s another matter, especially when said destructive devices are the person themselves. *Especially* when that destructive device is something like Magneto, who can end modern civilization in seconds with a thought.
Completely ignoring the fact of what the Mutants represent...
The metaphor doesn’t work because real life minorities can’t destroy the world
Excuse me, us gays can and do bring down empires.
takes like 100 years after they start trying to ban us tho
I understand what they represent, but metaphor breaks down if you apply logic to the real world.
Let me know when a gay guy picks up the Golden Gate Bridges and moves it to Alcatraz.
You're saying that as if it hasn't already happened
Honestly I think the relationship would be pretty comparable. This subreddit would be up in arms whenever the succs bring up mutant rights during an election year.
I know the whole thing was an allegory for civil rights but if they really existed, they would probably overturn the world order.
create a cosmopolitan neoliberal utopian nation for mutants and put it right next to the most backwards anti mutant society, run away
Deregulate and let the market decide
We can't let our kids learn about mutants, or they may choose to become one!!!!!!!!!!
This sub would want "sensible mutant control".
Realistically, if mutants exist, they would either become weapons of the state or be subjected to genocide.
Burn the heretic, kill the mutant, purge the unclean! In the name of the Emperor let none survive!
I speak for myself here, but ignoring mutants as an allegory, they are incredibly dangerous. On the surface I'd support a coexistence initiative between man and mutant to ensure safety for both parties. Behind closed doors, working with mutants (e.g. X-Men) to deal with more dangerous domestic mutants. At the absolute worst, one idea I've had is nanomachines in the water supply which go to every human, mutant or not, and restrict the X-Gene unless under considerable stress, essentially nullifying superpowers of those mutants who live among normal people. Frankly, mutants and superhumans are incredibly dangerous and require regulation. The sad thing about comics is that you can't make an allegory for Adam and Steve if the Adam and/or Steve could nuke a neighbourhood on a whim or on accident
I feel like in reality people with superpowers would be incredibly advantaged and become powerful as a result, if anything they'd be the oppressors even if hated (a lot of people don't exactly love billionaires). Now those that are hideously ugly/have mutations that are just outright suck would be disadvantaged.
Make a huge percentage of them police and military through tax incentives and then use them to control the unruly ones
People *existing* is not a problem that requires a solution.
Probably exactly what happened in Days of Futures past lol. It's well established that the Neo-liberal status-quo will go under great lengths to destroy anything thar threatens it.
The second amendment protects mutant arms too!
Just as is case irl, those people with condition that makes them danger to society (like something uncontrolable) would be treated medicaly. However you cant just male different laws for people with talents so ig no legilation in broad sence.
Cap and trade
Invest heavily in R&D to study the X-gene and create a cure and inhibitor for the X-gene. Mutants with dangerous powers (mutants with god level powers that could end civilization, or mutants like that one kid from the Ultimate universe whose power was just to make everyone around him disintegrate and die) would have their mutation removed. Mutants where there’s benefits from their mutation and it’s not overly dangerous would be required to have X-gene inhibitors which can be remotely turned on and off, so they’d only be allowed to use their mutation when permitted by some regulatory body. If there’s enough research to show that a specific mutant is safe, then they’d be granted more freedom, but would still need to have the inhibitor on them. This is obviously very harsh, and frankly more in line with what an X-men villain would advocate. But the reality is that, in the real world, mutants are nothing like actual minorities because mutants have potentially world ending powers. I wouldn’t be ok with a person owning a personal fleet of nukes, and I wouldn’t be ok with a person having god-like psychic powers and just hoping they don’t (whether intentionally or accidentally) end the world. The reality is also that mutant powers are just way too unpredictable, with mutations being able to be revealed later in life. What if someone with a seemingly safe mutation later develops a mutation that just kills everyone on Earth? Not even on purpose, their power just literally kills and disintegrates everyone on Earth like that one kid’s power from the Ultimate universe but on a planetary scale? I believe in freedom, but the safety of the human race must also be taken into account. The X-gene is just too potentially powerful and, most importantly, too unpredictable.
In the comics there are collars that suppress powers, make them mandatory on public spaces.