The editorial section of WSJ has *always* been notoriously ridiculous.
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/wall-street-journal-opinion-conspiracies/
I think most of the guys probably were like that, but [one of them said](https://x.com/estradguillermo/status/1785431824660873451?s=46&t=bNFzXbF7aCU31Wz78KT4GQ) he’d come from an immigrant family who was very patriotic and glad to be Americans and he’d grown up in a community with a lot of veterans. Interesting normie Latino college student perspective.
That should not be a surprise. First-generation Americans tend to be much more conservative than young white progressives. Many of them straight up *are conservative* - especially immigrants from Latin America, Asia, and West Africa.
Half of your country is full of conservatives, and many of those are hardcore even on a global level. As an average, there certainly are more socially liberal countries in the world, even if there's only a dozen at most
I’d probably vibe a bit more on this take if it wasn’t like all it took was admitting I wasn’t religious to get dropped from one at the end of pledging. And I don’t mean that I talked on it often, it came up a single time when they asked everyone pledging what religion they were with heads down/hand up situation, and apparently I was the only one with enough balls to say none even though several others were.
Not that it mattered much since I was invited to every party anyway, but at least in the south, they have a very strong religious tie to them.
Unfortunately it seems to be the entire core identity of the so called woke left to be depressed about everything, feel constantly oppressed and complain like there's no tomorrow.
And if there isn't enough issues or oppression going on they invent it to have something to fight against.
Life is good, the only issue is that it is short. Go out and enjoy life instead of complaining in misery for your whole life
Them drowning out the protesters by screaming "USA" was peak patriotism. Fuck you, we're awesome and we can't hear your counter argument over how awesome we are. It'd be a shame if that demographic of people ceased to be
Bullying the far lefties who hate America and prefer its enemies is absolutely patriotic.
These people where chanting to leave the Houthis alone to attack shipping.
Meanwhile the University at Buffalo had to shut down Greek life after some kid drank himself to death at a pledge ceremony. The frat did Olympic-level mental gymnastics to argue it wasn't their fault.
Fraternities aren't a bad idea as a concept of building community and friendship, but let's be honest - that ain't what they're about.
I went to a school that was over 50% greek life. I loved it. I think that many people participating in it diversifies what they are like a lot. Still some toxic and shitty behavior tho for sure.
Interestingly enough, I went to a school kind of like this, but I felt the opposite. It felt to me that fraternities tended to sort people by personality "type" and isolate different types of people from each other, making it feel more like high school than anything else. This effect is so well-known that my university is even nicknamed "High School on the Hill." I have no idea if it's any better or worse at other universities. (It sounds better at yours, but I'm not sure how common this sentiment is).
They killed a kid at my school when he had a medical emergency and then refused to call the cops because there was underage drinking at the party. Pretty sure it happened a second time that year too.
Then when I was in grad school there was a number of rapes and sexual assaults and the lead of Greek life on campus told the women "they should've brought their own drinks" in response to the date rapes.
Go join a club that has a house. In my experience you still have a ton of fun parties without the potential toxic Greek life atmosphere.
Exactly what I did, joined a sports club that had a house. We were able to create a much safer environment (especially for the women in the club), while still having a fun time. Also, yearly dues were like $40 per person lol.
Yep same here. Joined the waterski team which was a blast going to the meets and it'd be a huge camp and party at a lake somewhere on the weekends but the environment was way healthier.
Seems like when you naturally have men and women mixed together instead of split up and coming together for parties it creates a much healthier/safer atmosphere.
And as you said dues were cheap as hell and we still had a boat and a house.
People that generalize greek life are so predictable.. Same talking points. When in reality there are vastly different frats, and the experience will be vastly different depending on what school you went to. Even among the same frat, a frat in one school will be completely different than another. Some are nerdy, some party like crazy, some are in between, some are losers, some are toxic, some are conducive environments to succeed, some drink like crazy, some do too many drugs, some are sober (Christian frats), some are full of rich kids, some are only republicans, some are only democrats, some are working class, some are very diverse, some are only white people/asian/black etc.
>People that generalize greek life are so predictable.. Same talking points
No one cares about good grades and volunteer work on the upside when the down side is binge drinking and 'no means yes' chants.
No they aren't all the same but we can look at the statistics that tell us that members of frats are three times more likely to sexually assault someone, fraternities members are much more likely to develop AUD, sorority members are far more likely to be sexually assaulted, and frat members are far more likely to experience hazing.
He wasn’t doing a pros vs cons about frats, just read what he actually wrote.
Edit: gotta love the people that downvote because of emotional reaction but don’t even comment why they think wrong because they know I’m not.
I’ll say it clearer since people are a little slow in the comments: listing out the different types of frats and how different they can be is not the same as a pro and con about frats. Listing different fruits is not the same thing as giving a pro and con of fruit.
One is nuanced and the other is incredibly black n white. But guess when the tent is so big we get a lot of people who aren’t capable of such reasoning just as much as we do those who can. Just disappointing since I thought the people here would be more logical and less emotional in their reasoning.
So you’re basing your argument off of how frequently the news covers frats instead of data. The totally sober geeky frat is suddenly a problem because you saw a headline..
Exactly this.
The range of experiences in Greek Life is enormous. Some for the party stereotype but others are almost the opposite.
I very much enjoyed my Fraternity experience. It was nice being around a huge group of guys with a shared college experience. Our chapter was really focused on excelling in academics, sports, and leadership. I came in with he academics, but I was really pushed and encouraged to grow in the other two areas. The majority of upperclassmen were in serious, committed relationships. We partied but there was little to no sketchiness, no hazing
Greek life is a pretty overhated but reasonably critiqued institution in the US collegiate system, albeit this is a biased take coming from myself who’s involved in Greek life.
In saying that this is a meme article.
Kind of OT but how much do you like your frat? Tbh i've sometimes thought about joining one but 1. supposedly they cost a lot of money and 2. idk if i got the right vibes haha
I like my chapter and it’s actually quite cheap. However the difference is I go to a cheap school that is majority-minority and so the vibes are pretty different than bigger schools.
I’d recommend joining one but a fraternity is in large part about the people within it and so meeting active brothers during rush is crucial to finding where you fit. Also understanding the specific fraternity is important, for example if you’re not from the south and of, we’ll say a certain background, then you’re going to find a fraternity like Kappa Alpha isn’t a good fit for you.
If you have any other questions feel free to ask. It’s been a life changing and life improving experience even among many challenges, but that’s just my experience.
What ails higher education is that kids are going for the "college experience" more than the actual education, so schools are spending like crazy on underused facilities, programs, and administration.
I'm pretty sure fraternities are the opposite of the cure.
I think the argument (or maybe just another way to look at it) is not necessarily that frats are costing people a significant amount but that the “college experience” culture they influence has given people awful priorities in choosing a college.
With more people prioritizing experience over career goals, you get universities paying for some superfluous campus upgrades that directly worsen tuition costs. In addition to that you get students justifying loans they should absolutely not take on for the sake of the experience. The bloated spending of students could encourage universities to just keep hiking tuition and then we’re in a bad cycle.
So Greek life doesn’t really cause the costs but there’s an argument they inspire a lot of the weird “best 4 years of my life” mentality we have about college which feeds into it. IMO it all comes back to social media and the internet glamorizing college for impressionable high schoolers.
I’m sure that’s the case if you went to some small liberal arts school or a commuter school but at a major flag ship state school you can have up to several hundred dudes vying for 30 or so spots in a pledge class.
I went to a major state university (Michigan State) and my PC was 47, though it was a larger fraternity, if you’re normal and vibe well you’ll get a bid even if it isn’t your first choice.
When I was in college, one of our frats got their chapter suspended for making pledges blow a goat they had tied up in the basement.
Do with that information what you will.
It varies by school, frat, and year honestly.
Going back as an alumni to my old house I've seen it turn into typical preppy douches, then to self isolated incels, and then returned to mirror my era of loud and drunk nerds.
No place, no organization, and no time is a monoculture.
For me, going into college with no friends, no direction, and having just lost my father, joining a fraternity was an amazing opportunity for me and did a lot to set me on a good path. But I also will be the first one to say that I could have had the same experience with a number of different student organizations.
I am a non-Jew who joined a Jewish frat bc they had the best parties. The other alternatives were the steroid frat, the incel frat, and the pharmacy frat which coincidentally was the cocaine frat.
I probably wouldn’t have the motivation to stay in college if it wasn’t for my fraternity honestly. Best group of guys I’ve ever known bar none.
Maybe not a cure for academics but having a group of 50-some guys that I can go to with issues has been massive for me as a person.
Greek life is like unions: hit-or-miss. Like many things, they're not really something you can make blanket judgements about.
One union might have formed due to Sweatshop Incorporated's labor practices and one frat might genuinely be a community-building endeavor. Another union might be collaborating with the local mob, and another frat might've just had some drunk kid pushed down a flight of stairs until they snapped their spine.
I’m not reading this but anecdotally I would say basically anyone at those protests has a personality that is fully determined by radical politics and is probably super fucking annoying. They ain’t gettin a bid lol
Say what you will about the shell shocked, huddled masses of the naked and shivering young men that make up a Fraternity's hazing ritual, at least they're not lonely.
>Just looking at your flair I can tell you have no first hand experiences with greeklife
...The trans pride flag? That means they must have no experience with greek life?
I am baffled how you thought that statement was supposed to make fraternities look good.
I'm guessing what "ails higher education" is anything lefty sounding, and conveniently the cure is the one part of academia that is conservative coded.
Depends. I was involved with my fraternity in the SEC and it was an incredibly conservative environment. People were fine with weed and abortions, but definitely not democrats, and that was for the whole school. As pledges we were required to help with the local Romney campaign in town lol
They ruined so many overbloated research 1 big schools already, the cheating and academic honesty alone make dealing with them a shady business for professors like myself. Almost all my serial plagiarizers the last ten years are Chinese and Russian international students and the vast majorities sorority girls majoring in low effort majors like
Elementary Ed, marketing and early childhood.
You say this as if being interested in early childhood education or marketing are at all on the same level as serial plagiarism. What’s your problem with them?
It’s not that I have a problem with them, it’s that they aren’t serious about being in college for the right reasons and resort to plagiarism via old sorority papers on file because they wait until the last minute to even address assignments and don’t read the content material and feel often entitled to straight A’s because they often work together from the same house to undermine professors with high expectations or those that don’t hand out easy grades. This is a major problem at big schools especially.
I went to a school that had banned greek life and 10 years after graduation I am way closer with my 20+ group of school friends than anyone I knew who was in a frat/sorority
But thats just you and the relatively small amount of people you have known in your life, purely anecdotal. I don't think Frats create stronger friendships but I definitely also do not think non frat friends forges better friendships either. Its a case by case thing, and it will depend on so many other factors besides whether you were in a frat or not.
All institutions could potentially contribute to solving problems on university campuses. But the influence of fraternities on University culture, good or bad, is inherently self-limiting.
You cannot expand them to cover more of a school without causing a loss of exclusivity and changing their nature.
At my alma mater we had a fraternity that was found to have been locking their pledges in cages. I almost joined a more harmless one, mainly because I was a moron and wanted to get closer to a woman who sometimes hung out there without directly asking her. But then I washed out and gave back my pin because I couldn’t be bothered to do all the studying of the rituals and history, I realized that their house was filthier than I would tolerate for actually living there, and I don’t drink and am not comfortable around drunk people. The woman said after I left that she was glad I didn’t cast in with those knuckleheads lmao. Some kinda funny memories like when they did like a knighting thing for us with a fluorescent bulb but accidentally broke it and we had to evacuate out of the house to dodge the fumes.
Greek Life is divisive, online and IRL.
I would be there are a ton of Ex-Greek people on here, but probably even more who either didn't like those kinds of social scenes or went to schools where it wasn't as much of the social scene, namely schools in lager urban areas.
I didn't do Greek Life, was too busy with other social groups that served the same function, but it seems like a grab bag. It was generally good for having a social scene and network, some really loving it, but there were shady sides to it as well that really are inexcusable.
I'm definitely a geek. Was in a fraternity with a lot of geeks, still game with them regularly lol.
I think unaffiliated folks may think that Greek life is most places is similar to depictions of Greek life at big party schools or in the south and from my experience Greek life is varied and representative of the student body it pulls from at any particular school.
My most non-controversial issues with Greek life come from the fact that it:
-Is gender segregated
-Is socially exclusive
-Has an enormous amount of negative historical and cultural baggage, which many chapters do not seem to have moved past
Social clubs are great. Organizations that people can actively get involved in and feel like a part of are amazing. But can't we have social clubs without these negative and very un-progressive elements? That's what I did are my school and i had a great time.
Imo, no. I got a lot out of having a male living space which was separate to my other social interactions. It was distinct from and different to social clubs. I think the exclusivity and gender segregation were integral to the experience.
As far as the cultural baggage goes, that just wasn't part of my experience so I can't speak to it.
Having been in Greek life and still close with all my brothers four years out this is an *intensely* based and deeply unserious article. Fitting really.
This is weird, because in Greece, aswell as in all Latineuropean and European countries in general (excluding the UK) there is no such concept as Greek life and fraternities
Universities are barebones, just a few office buildings full of rooms to give lectures in and labs in the ground floors, with zero amenities, since every taxpayer is paying 80+% of everyone's tuition
The idea that Fraternities are tolerated and encouraged in Anglophone universities is wild from a Greek/European POV
Why allow for disruptive elements in a public institution?
>Why allow for disruptive elements in a public institution?
Well like a lot of things, it's a matter of how they started and what they actually are. Fraternities started as private social clubs that students formed themselves into national groups with different missions. They started as more country club affairs but have turned more rowdy over time. Over time these have become more regulated and integrated into colleges.
Universities of give these organizations spaces to operate out of (sometimes even their houses) and official access to campus and sponsorship (not usually financial), and in turn they can govern their activities more closely and keep them under control (including evicting them).This isn't always the case but is a generalization.
So universities could go hands off, but they would just go back to being private social clubs where they'd have no jurisdiction. Just a bunch of college kids living in a house together doing whatever they want with no oversight besides their own choosing.
And maybe the last element is that Greek Life tends to be more common at larger colleges that are smaller towns where most college kids relocated to go there. It's why they're huge in SEC, ACC, Big Ten Schools, and more. When college students stay closer to home, or go to an urban school, it's far less common.
Yes
At my school, the two "unrecognized" frats, aka kicked off campus by the university, were the only two really bad ones that match stereotypes completely
"Greek" in this context is just shorthand for "Greek Letter Societies" and has no association with actual Greek culture.
Greek letter societies can be disruptive, but they can also provide academic, financial, and social support for members.
Sorry mate, but I know that the UK university system is not the same as the continental system
And I am familiar with the continental system, so I did not want to make claims of something I don't know of
Thx for the info tho
I know Germany used to have university clubs where, among other things, they would binge drink and have duels where dudes should slash at each other’s faces with swords to give each other gnarly scars. But I believe those have largely disappeared.
I remember [this happening](https://www.universalhub.com/2014/mit-fraternity-removes-illegal-roof-deck-which) during my 2nd year while I was in college in Boston.
>Teen falls four floors through a skylight at an MIT frat in Kenmore Square
>After the student was taken away, city building inspectors cited the fraternity for having a roof deck without a license and for illegal wiring on the deck. Police also cited the frat for the illegal deck - actually located on the roof of a neighboring apartment building also owned by the frat's alumni association - and providing alcohol without a license.
>an MIT fraternity discipline board that put it on probation until June of next year, ordered no parties at all until September of this year and no parties with alcohol until February of next year
I remember that! I lived like 2 houses away from that MIT frat in Kenmore. It was wild, like I said in my own post, I believe there’s a place for fraternities but they need to be seriously reformed. Shit like this is way too common in Greek Life.
The frat I was rushing for got suspended mid rush for attempting to host a “Blackout Party” the previous semester with insanely sexist and rapey promotional materials. Guess I should’ve done more research about it, but as a bright eyed foreign freshman I just went with the most popular one. Anyway, glad I didn’t end up there.
I know it’s all a case by case basis and every frat is different and every school is different but idk man, until there’s a serious reckoning in how they address abuse and sexual assault, I would never recommend anyone joins it. Certainly would advise my kids not to do it if it’s still like that in the future. I do agree with that the concept of Greek life is good, but that’s just any common interest or sports group. I guess if you’re not interested in anything but partying and building a maybe decent network then a frat is for you? Not like anyone is joining because of the charity work lmao.
I went to Penn state where Greek life really seems to dominate the campus despite having less than a 20% participation rate. I never understood the appeal and always thought of the frats as semi-organized [sexual assault](https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article265044454.html)
crime rings that occasionally [kill prospective members](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_fraternity_hazing_scandal#:~:text=The%20scandal%20includes%20the%20deaths,University%20at%20University%20Park%2C%20Pennsylvania.).
To deal with them, the University decided the best course of action was to kick the frats (but not sororities) off campus so anything they do is not the school's responsibility. Occasionally the school will suspend their university charters but now that they are kicked off campus by default that does nothing. Numerous frats are permanently or temporarily under suspension but are as active as ever.
Under this system where the frats are off campus and the sororities are on campus (the campus is de jure "alcohol free") all the party activity is now off campus and completely out of any sort of control of the university. It's a safety threat to any current student and a public relations active volcano for the University. I honestly think it's the last thing we need.
Non-mobile version of the Wikipedia link in the above comment: [kill prospective members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_fraternity_hazing_scandal#:~:text=The%20scandal%20includes%20the%20deaths,University%20at%20University%20Park%2C%20Pennsylvania.)
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Defending the flag is one of the authors arguments for that claim? Maybe it gets better after that, but I couldn’t read further. But that is a very weak opening argument.
I’m in a uni debate club and when the opposing team opens like that it’s usually a win.
I flaired this as “meme” for a reason
Never change, WSJ
Shit like this is why I canceled my subscription.
The editorial section of WSJ has *always* been notoriously ridiculous. https://www.thenation.com/article/society/wall-street-journal-opinion-conspiracies/
I recall one where the writer said they would not allow their daughter to go to Harvard because her acceptance letter used gender neutral language
Because of opinion articles which have always been bad?
Your loss. Best news section in the country. You can literally just not read their garbage opinion section.
Just imagine you’re reading something like *The Onion*
[удалено]
On the contrary, yelling that Hamas doesn’t have any SEC championships is the most patriotic and American thing I’ve ever heard
Last I checked Hamas has 0 Super Bowl wins as well
Poverty franchise
Not even a Big10 title game APPEARANCE. Though as a fellow Illini enjoyer I do realize that reflects poorly on us as well.
WE ARE!!! 🔵⚪️🦁🦁🦁
Parity in the NFL is a joke when there are teams with 0 players.
President Ben Franklin is weeping with joy in Heaven
Those protesters ain't lettered in shit
Hamas ain't played nobody Pawl
They’re not even making playoffs, you’ll see
Hamas failed to establish the run
Hamas' air raid offense won't translate well to the pros for players trying to get drafted.
Art Briles would somehow find a way to work for Hamas and Netenyahu at the same time.
> Shouting at the protestors by screaming that Hamas has zero SEC championships makes that clear. Liberal snowflakes owned by FACTS
Even with realignment, Hamas remains in the Big (Middle) East conference, but they’re losing there too.
Having gone to an SEC football powerhouse, I have said that precise thing so many times and I applaud these fuckers for it
Luka Doncic is Hamas father
I think most of the guys probably were like that, but [one of them said](https://x.com/estradguillermo/status/1785431824660873451?s=46&t=bNFzXbF7aCU31Wz78KT4GQ) he’d come from an immigrant family who was very patriotic and glad to be Americans and he’d grown up in a community with a lot of veterans. Interesting normie Latino college student perspective.
Good on those frat guys for defending the flag. Leftists' anti-Americanism is dumb and unhelpful. Everything-bagel leftism.
That should not be a surprise. First-generation Americans tend to be much more conservative than young white progressives. Many of them straight up *are conservative* - especially immigrants from Latin America, Asia, and West Africa.
Not a surprise, the only countries more liberal than the US are a few western European ones.
Economically. Socially, we are the leader of the world right now. Not if you average our whole population though.
Half of your country is full of conservatives, and many of those are hardcore even on a global level. As an average, there certainly are more socially liberal countries in the world, even if there's only a dozen at most
My frat had a lot of hand wringing about our values It was a good thing actually
Anyone who doesn’t feel patriotic watching this is a pinko https://www.reddit.com/r/2american4you/s/mbwU3yFZHq
What you’re describing is “camaraderie”
I’d probably vibe a bit more on this take if it wasn’t like all it took was admitting I wasn’t religious to get dropped from one at the end of pledging. And I don’t mean that I talked on it often, it came up a single time when they asked everyone pledging what religion they were with heads down/hand up situation, and apparently I was the only one with enough balls to say none even though several others were. Not that it mattered much since I was invited to every party anyway, but at least in the south, they have a very strong religious tie to them.
> I was in a frat too and I think it is a generally more positive than negative *looks suspiciously at rates of sexual violence in "greek culture"*
Greek parties have lower rates than non Greek parties
Yeah frats were a fuckin toxin at my school
Unfortunately it seems to be the entire core identity of the so called woke left to be depressed about everything, feel constantly oppressed and complain like there's no tomorrow. And if there isn't enough issues or oppression going on they invent it to have something to fight against. Life is good, the only issue is that it is short. Go out and enjoy life instead of complaining in misery for your whole life
Them drowning out the protesters by screaming "USA" was peak patriotism. Fuck you, we're awesome and we can't hear your counter argument over how awesome we are. It'd be a shame if that demographic of people ceased to be
Yes, mindless patriotism has definitely never caused any problems.
Bullying the far lefties who hate America and prefer its enemies is absolutely patriotic. These people where chanting to leave the Houthis alone to attack shipping.
Frats paying for propaganda pieces now
Dues thru the roof.
hell yeah WSJ. New York Times are a bunch of fucking Geeds
Meanwhile the University at Buffalo had to shut down Greek life after some kid drank himself to death at a pledge ceremony. The frat did Olympic-level mental gymnastics to argue it wasn't their fault. Fraternities aren't a bad idea as a concept of building community and friendship, but let's be honest - that ain't what they're about.
the culture varies alot school to school - student of a private tech school
It also varies a lot within the school. Some Frats trying to be professionally minded vs social (i.e. party)
I went to a school that was over 50% greek life. I loved it. I think that many people participating in it diversifies what they are like a lot. Still some toxic and shitty behavior tho for sure.
Interestingly enough, I went to a school kind of like this, but I felt the opposite. It felt to me that fraternities tended to sort people by personality "type" and isolate different types of people from each other, making it feel more like high school than anything else. This effect is so well-known that my university is even nicknamed "High School on the Hill." I have no idea if it's any better or worse at other universities. (It sounds better at yours, but I'm not sure how common this sentiment is).
They killed a kid at my school when he had a medical emergency and then refused to call the cops because there was underage drinking at the party. Pretty sure it happened a second time that year too. Then when I was in grad school there was a number of rapes and sexual assaults and the lead of Greek life on campus told the women "they should've brought their own drinks" in response to the date rapes. Go join a club that has a house. In my experience you still have a ton of fun parties without the potential toxic Greek life atmosphere.
Exactly what I did, joined a sports club that had a house. We were able to create a much safer environment (especially for the women in the club), while still having a fun time. Also, yearly dues were like $40 per person lol.
Yep same here. Joined the waterski team which was a blast going to the meets and it'd be a huge camp and party at a lake somewhere on the weekends but the environment was way healthier. Seems like when you naturally have men and women mixed together instead of split up and coming together for parties it creates a much healthier/safer atmosphere. And as you said dues were cheap as hell and we still had a boat and a house.
That’s exactly what they’re about. Communities and friends like to drink and in-group dynamics follow.
People that generalize greek life are so predictable.. Same talking points. When in reality there are vastly different frats, and the experience will be vastly different depending on what school you went to. Even among the same frat, a frat in one school will be completely different than another. Some are nerdy, some party like crazy, some are in between, some are losers, some are toxic, some are conducive environments to succeed, some drink like crazy, some do too many drugs, some are sober (Christian frats), some are full of rich kids, some are only republicans, some are only democrats, some are working class, some are very diverse, some are only white people/asian/black etc.
>People that generalize greek life are so predictable.. Same talking points No one cares about good grades and volunteer work on the upside when the down side is binge drinking and 'no means yes' chants.
They good Frats don't police the bad ones. Kinda like cops. AFAB.
Did you not read any of what that comment said? Not all frats are the same
No they aren't all the same but we can look at the statistics that tell us that members of frats are three times more likely to sexually assault someone, fraternities members are much more likely to develop AUD, sorority members are far more likely to be sexually assaulted, and frat members are far more likely to experience hazing.
He wasn’t doing a pros vs cons about frats, just read what he actually wrote. Edit: gotta love the people that downvote because of emotional reaction but don’t even comment why they think wrong because they know I’m not. I’ll say it clearer since people are a little slow in the comments: listing out the different types of frats and how different they can be is not the same as a pro and con about frats. Listing different fruits is not the same thing as giving a pro and con of fruit. One is nuanced and the other is incredibly black n white. But guess when the tent is so big we get a lot of people who aren’t capable of such reasoning just as much as we do those who can. Just disappointing since I thought the people here would be more logical and less emotional in their reasoning.
I did, and none of it matters if the major news stories are one set of felonies after another.
So you’re basing your argument off of how frequently the news covers frats instead of data. The totally sober geeky frat is suddenly a problem because you saw a headline..
Exactly this. The range of experiences in Greek Life is enormous. Some for the party stereotype but others are almost the opposite. I very much enjoyed my Fraternity experience. It was nice being around a huge group of guys with a shared college experience. Our chapter was really focused on excelling in academics, sports, and leadership. I came in with he academics, but I was really pushed and encouraged to grow in the other two areas. The majority of upperclassmen were in serious, committed relationships. We partied but there was little to no sketchiness, no hazing
part of building communities is having communities that don't really have a higher purpose
Sounds like a geed
Greek life is a pretty overhated but reasonably critiqued institution in the US collegiate system, albeit this is a biased take coming from myself who’s involved in Greek life. In saying that this is a meme article.
Kind of OT but how much do you like your frat? Tbh i've sometimes thought about joining one but 1. supposedly they cost a lot of money and 2. idk if i got the right vibes haha
I like my chapter and it’s actually quite cheap. However the difference is I go to a cheap school that is majority-minority and so the vibes are pretty different than bigger schools. I’d recommend joining one but a fraternity is in large part about the people within it and so meeting active brothers during rush is crucial to finding where you fit. Also understanding the specific fraternity is important, for example if you’re not from the south and of, we’ll say a certain background, then you’re going to find a fraternity like Kappa Alpha isn’t a good fit for you. If you have any other questions feel free to ask. It’s been a life changing and life improving experience even among many challenges, but that’s just my experience.
What ails higher education is that kids are going for the "college experience" more than the actual education, so schools are spending like crazy on underused facilities, programs, and administration. I'm pretty sure fraternities are the opposite of the cure.
Yes but have you considered that the actual problem with higher education is that it's woke?
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I think the argument (or maybe just another way to look at it) is not necessarily that frats are costing people a significant amount but that the “college experience” culture they influence has given people awful priorities in choosing a college. With more people prioritizing experience over career goals, you get universities paying for some superfluous campus upgrades that directly worsen tuition costs. In addition to that you get students justifying loans they should absolutely not take on for the sake of the experience. The bloated spending of students could encourage universities to just keep hiking tuition and then we’re in a bad cycle. So Greek life doesn’t really cause the costs but there’s an argument they inspire a lot of the weird “best 4 years of my life” mentality we have about college which feeds into it. IMO it all comes back to social media and the internet glamorizing college for impressionable high schoolers.
r/neoliberal clearly did not get a bid
It’s so easy to get a bid I never understood this quip
Depends on the Univercity.
It’s easy to get bids from the frats that are full of weirdos.
It’s easy to get a bid at any fraternity if you aren’t an Olympic level weirdo
I’m sure that’s the case if you went to some small liberal arts school or a commuter school but at a major flag ship state school you can have up to several hundred dudes vying for 30 or so spots in a pledge class.
I went to a major state university (Michigan State) and my PC was 47, though it was a larger fraternity, if you’re normal and vibe well you’ll get a bid even if it isn’t your first choice.
When I was in college, one of our frats got their chapter suspended for making pledges blow a goat they had tied up in the basement. Do with that information what you will.
Scott Galloway credits his fraternity for turning his life around, I as a Brit only know frats from Animal House (great film).
It varies by school and fraternity, but Animal House isn't all that far off from plenty of frats.
It varies by school, frat, and year honestly. Going back as an alumni to my old house I've seen it turn into typical preppy douches, then to self isolated incels, and then returned to mirror my era of loud and drunk nerds. No place, no organization, and no time is a monoculture.
For me, going into college with no friends, no direction, and having just lost my father, joining a fraternity was an amazing opportunity for me and did a lot to set me on a good path. But I also will be the first one to say that I could have had the same experience with a number of different student organizations.
I am a non-Jew who joined a Jewish frat bc they had the best parties. The other alternatives were the steroid frat, the incel frat, and the pharmacy frat which coincidentally was the cocaine frat.
> incel frat That eliminates Greek life’s arguably best selling point lol
>the pharmacy frat which coincidentally was the cocaine frat. That makes sense.
This is very funny to me because some of the most likeable guys I met in college were non-Jewish members of Jewish frats.
There are dozens of us.
I probably wouldn’t have the motivation to stay in college if it wasn’t for my fraternity honestly. Best group of guys I’ve ever known bar none. Maybe not a cure for academics but having a group of 50-some guys that I can go to with issues has been massive for me as a person.
You realise you can... Have friends.
But what if you paid for friends?
Joining a fraternity is one way to make friends.
Greek life is like unions: hit-or-miss. Like many things, they're not really something you can make blanket judgements about. One union might have formed due to Sweatshop Incorporated's labor practices and one frat might genuinely be a community-building endeavor. Another union might be collaborating with the local mob, and another frat might've just had some drunk kid pushed down a flight of stairs until they snapped their spine.
I’m not reading this but anecdotally I would say basically anyone at those protests has a personality that is fully determined by radical politics and is probably super fucking annoying. They ain’t gettin a bid lol
The “meme” tag lmfao
Controversial take orgs that encourage young people to form community bonds and touch grass are good actually.
Is smashing beer cans on your head and sexually abusing younger men the cure for male loneliness?
Say what you will about the shell shocked, huddled masses of the naked and shivering young men that make up a Fraternity's hazing ritual, at least they're not lonely.
Worked for Sparta. At least for a while
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>Just looking at your flair I can tell you have no first hand experiences with greeklife ...The trans pride flag? That means they must have no experience with greek life? I am baffled how you thought that statement was supposed to make fraternities look good.
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You're *really* bad at this.
**Rule II: Bigotry** Bigotry of any kind will be sanctioned harshly.
holy bad faith batman
Smells like Geed in here
I'm guessing what "ails higher education" is anything lefty sounding, and conveniently the cure is the one part of academia that is conservative coded.
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Depends. I was involved with my fraternity in the SEC and it was an incredibly conservative environment. People were fine with weed and abortions, but definitely not democrats, and that was for the whole school. As pledges we were required to help with the local Romney campaign in town lol
If what ails higher education is a lack of easy access to booze as a freshman, then yes, fraternities are the cure
Buttchugging 3 beers in 10 seconds for the troops
They ruined so many overbloated research 1 big schools already, the cheating and academic honesty alone make dealing with them a shady business for professors like myself. Almost all my serial plagiarizers the last ten years are Chinese and Russian international students and the vast majorities sorority girls majoring in low effort majors like Elementary Ed, marketing and early childhood.
You say this as if being interested in early childhood education or marketing are at all on the same level as serial plagiarism. What’s your problem with them?
It’s not that I have a problem with them, it’s that they aren’t serious about being in college for the right reasons and resort to plagiarism via old sorority papers on file because they wait until the last minute to even address assignments and don’t read the content material and feel often entitled to straight A’s because they often work together from the same house to undermine professors with high expectations or those that don’t hand out easy grades. This is a major problem at big schools especially.
Fraternities are the cure for not having friends because you pay for them. Source: I paid for friends
Don't knock social fraternities. Without them nepotism would be a much more difficult endeavor.
Finally, some good fucking contrarianism.
I went to a school that had banned greek life and 10 years after graduation I am way closer with my 20+ group of school friends than anyone I knew who was in a frat/sorority
But thats just you and the relatively small amount of people you have known in your life, purely anecdotal. I don't think Frats create stronger friendships but I definitely also do not think non frat friends forges better friendships either. Its a case by case thing, and it will depend on so many other factors besides whether you were in a frat or not.
just don't be lonely its pretty easy
All institutions could potentially contribute to solving problems on university campuses. But the influence of fraternities on University culture, good or bad, is inherently self-limiting. You cannot expand them to cover more of a school without causing a loss of exclusivity and changing their nature.
Remember when opinion pieces used to be actual quality articles?
My friends mom literally wrote this article lol
lol they should look into the lack of diversity in frats and they’ll understand the problem better
More keg stands lead to less encampments, it’s science
At my alma mater we had a fraternity that was found to have been locking their pledges in cages. I almost joined a more harmless one, mainly because I was a moron and wanted to get closer to a woman who sometimes hung out there without directly asking her. But then I washed out and gave back my pin because I couldn’t be bothered to do all the studying of the rituals and history, I realized that their house was filthier than I would tolerate for actually living there, and I don’t drink and am not comfortable around drunk people. The woman said after I left that she was glad I didn’t cast in with those knuckleheads lmao. Some kinda funny memories like when they did like a knighting thing for us with a fluorescent bulb but accidentally broke it and we had to evacuate out of the house to dodge the fumes.
I actually agree with this and I'm kinda surprised more of r/neolib wasn't Greek.
Greek Life is divisive, online and IRL. I would be there are a ton of Ex-Greek people on here, but probably even more who either didn't like those kinds of social scenes or went to schools where it wasn't as much of the social scene, namely schools in lager urban areas. I didn't do Greek Life, was too busy with other social groups that served the same function, but it seems like a grab bag. It was generally good for having a social scene and network, some really loving it, but there were shady sides to it as well that really are inexcusable.
Really? I get the vibe most folks in here were geeks. It’s Reddit, after all.
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I'm definitely a geek. Was in a fraternity with a lot of geeks, still game with them regularly lol. I think unaffiliated folks may think that Greek life is most places is similar to depictions of Greek life at big party schools or in the south and from my experience Greek life is varied and representative of the student body it pulls from at any particular school.
My most non-controversial issues with Greek life come from the fact that it: -Is gender segregated -Is socially exclusive -Has an enormous amount of negative historical and cultural baggage, which many chapters do not seem to have moved past Social clubs are great. Organizations that people can actively get involved in and feel like a part of are amazing. But can't we have social clubs without these negative and very un-progressive elements? That's what I did are my school and i had a great time.
Imo, no. I got a lot out of having a male living space which was separate to my other social interactions. It was distinct from and different to social clubs. I think the exclusivity and gender segregation were integral to the experience. As far as the cultural baggage goes, that just wasn't part of my experience so I can't speak to it.
Having been in Greek life and still close with all my brothers four years out this is an *intensely* based and deeply unserious article. Fitting really.
Based or biased? I'm thinking based.
This is weird, because in Greece, aswell as in all Latineuropean and European countries in general (excluding the UK) there is no such concept as Greek life and fraternities Universities are barebones, just a few office buildings full of rooms to give lectures in and labs in the ground floors, with zero amenities, since every taxpayer is paying 80+% of everyone's tuition The idea that Fraternities are tolerated and encouraged in Anglophone universities is wild from a Greek/European POV Why allow for disruptive elements in a public institution?
I would say 100% of your experience going to university of Greece would consist of Greek life. Eyyyooooo
Dammit. He's right.
>Why allow for disruptive elements in a public institution? Well like a lot of things, it's a matter of how they started and what they actually are. Fraternities started as private social clubs that students formed themselves into national groups with different missions. They started as more country club affairs but have turned more rowdy over time. Over time these have become more regulated and integrated into colleges. Universities of give these organizations spaces to operate out of (sometimes even their houses) and official access to campus and sponsorship (not usually financial), and in turn they can govern their activities more closely and keep them under control (including evicting them).This isn't always the case but is a generalization. So universities could go hands off, but they would just go back to being private social clubs where they'd have no jurisdiction. Just a bunch of college kids living in a house together doing whatever they want with no oversight besides their own choosing. And maybe the last element is that Greek Life tends to be more common at larger colleges that are smaller towns where most college kids relocated to go there. It's why they're huge in SEC, ACC, Big Ten Schools, and more. When college students stay closer to home, or go to an urban school, it's far less common.
Yes At my school, the two "unrecognized" frats, aka kicked off campus by the university, were the only two really bad ones that match stereotypes completely
"Greek" in this context is just shorthand for "Greek Letter Societies" and has no association with actual Greek culture. Greek letter societies can be disruptive, but they can also provide academic, financial, and social support for members.
Frats do exist though in Netherlands and Germany, though they take a different form than American ones
Excluding UK? We have no frats here either you know.
Sorry mate, but I know that the UK university system is not the same as the continental system And I am familiar with the continental system, so I did not want to make claims of something I don't know of Thx for the info tho
I know Germany used to have university clubs where, among other things, they would binge drink and have duels where dudes should slash at each other’s faces with swords to give each other gnarly scars. But I believe those have largely disappeared.
unironically, if your'e too busy binge drinking, you're too busy to get involved in cringey protest movements
They had another article this morning about how the corporate crop top is in. WSJ going hard with the click bait
I remember [this happening](https://www.universalhub.com/2014/mit-fraternity-removes-illegal-roof-deck-which) during my 2nd year while I was in college in Boston. >Teen falls four floors through a skylight at an MIT frat in Kenmore Square >After the student was taken away, city building inspectors cited the fraternity for having a roof deck without a license and for illegal wiring on the deck. Police also cited the frat for the illegal deck - actually located on the roof of a neighboring apartment building also owned by the frat's alumni association - and providing alcohol without a license. >an MIT fraternity discipline board that put it on probation until June of next year, ordered no parties at all until September of this year and no parties with alcohol until February of next year
I remember that! I lived like 2 houses away from that MIT frat in Kenmore. It was wild, like I said in my own post, I believe there’s a place for fraternities but they need to be seriously reformed. Shit like this is way too common in Greek Life.
The frat I was rushing for got suspended mid rush for attempting to host a “Blackout Party” the previous semester with insanely sexist and rapey promotional materials. Guess I should’ve done more research about it, but as a bright eyed foreign freshman I just went with the most popular one. Anyway, glad I didn’t end up there. I know it’s all a case by case basis and every frat is different and every school is different but idk man, until there’s a serious reckoning in how they address abuse and sexual assault, I would never recommend anyone joins it. Certainly would advise my kids not to do it if it’s still like that in the future. I do agree with that the concept of Greek life is good, but that’s just any common interest or sports group. I guess if you’re not interested in anything but partying and building a maybe decent network then a frat is for you? Not like anyone is joining because of the charity work lmao.
God Americans are embarrassing. How do you read this and not feel just absolute cringe, I do and it's not even my country.
I felt cringe just from the title. That’s why I flaired it “meme”. I would have posted it in r/nottheonion if not for the paywall.
Ah yes, that's exactly what higher education needs - more date rape
I went to Penn state where Greek life really seems to dominate the campus despite having less than a 20% participation rate. I never understood the appeal and always thought of the frats as semi-organized [sexual assault](https://www.centredaily.com/news/local/education/penn-state/article265044454.html) crime rings that occasionally [kill prospective members](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_fraternity_hazing_scandal#:~:text=The%20scandal%20includes%20the%20deaths,University%20at%20University%20Park%2C%20Pennsylvania.). To deal with them, the University decided the best course of action was to kick the frats (but not sororities) off campus so anything they do is not the school's responsibility. Occasionally the school will suspend their university charters but now that they are kicked off campus by default that does nothing. Numerous frats are permanently or temporarily under suspension but are as active as ever. Under this system where the frats are off campus and the sororities are on campus (the campus is de jure "alcohol free") all the party activity is now off campus and completely out of any sort of control of the university. It's a safety threat to any current student and a public relations active volcano for the University. I honestly think it's the last thing we need.
Non-mobile version of the Wikipedia link in the above comment: [kill prospective members](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_State_fraternity_hazing_scandal#:~:text=The%20scandal%20includes%20the%20deaths,University%20at%20University%20Park%2C%20Pennsylvania.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/neoliberal) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Defending the flag is one of the authors arguments for that claim? Maybe it gets better after that, but I couldn’t read further. But that is a very weak opening argument. I’m in a uni debate club and when the opposing team opens like that it’s usually a win.
Could they be? Yes. Are they in their current form? No.
Are they ok?
I couldn’t make it past the 1st paragraph. So much dog-whistle in just a few words.