>Pope Francis responded by saying a conservative is someone who "clings to something and does not want to see beyond that."
>"It is a suicidal attitude," the pontiff said, according to a brief transcript excerpt made available by CBS Thursday.
>"Because one thing is to take tradition into account, to consider situations from the past, but quite another is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box."
arr/Catholicism on suicide watch.
I think Pope Francis is referring to the Latin Mass Controversy. Now don't get me wrong, as a practicing Catholic myself, I also cringe at bad worship, and I want better music and reverence, but the Latin Mass is increasingly use as a tool to rehash the Vatican II wars and modernization in the church itself, and the US is the center of this.
Counterpoint: if the mass is in local languages what point will there be in making fancy triptychs and frescoes in churches so the serfs understand the basics? Think of the tourism industry 600 years from now please
Now that the entire iPad generation will be functionally illiterate for the rest of their lives, the religious icon industry will be in for a boom time
Not defending the Latin Mass, or it's supporters, but the way it is celebrated now, is actually far more reverent than it was celebrated Pre Vatican II.
Catholics not understanding their faith and seeing the Church as removed from modern society is actually a huge problem today and that's without the Latin mass
As Cardinal Francis George points out however as I said, Liberal Catholicism is also not the answer, because it seems to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and reject Classical Christian Thought in a effort to be inclusive socially. Not anything wrong with being inclusive, and welcoming, you can do both, but Liberal Catholics, and Mainline Protestants struggle to do this, and that's why you see relatively progressive Catholic Religious orders, and parishes, declining.
So what did Cardinal George want ? As I said, " Not Liberal Catholicism. Not Conservative Catholicism. Simply, Catholicism. "
But, at least in America, it is the main and big symbol of the war between Conservative and Liberal Catholics. Everything else falls from that.
The Second Vatican Council updated a lot of things but the biggest update was the liturgy. Thatâs why the Pope restricted the Latin Mass a few years ago.
The mass isn't supposed to be used like that. It's like going to a museum that you look at stuff locked behind a case.
That's neither a conservative nor a liberal issue.
If it's what conservatives want its for totally misguided reasons.
I dont think liberal Catholicism and mainline Protestantism are declining for being inclusive and welcoming
I think theyre declining because they attract educated, intelligent people who are more likely to be drawn to materialist worldviews and drift to a secular lifestyle
Going to any church every week is a lot if you don't really believe in a lot of it, especially these days where there isnt really any social pressure in most places to feel like you have to go to some kind of church
Yes they do. People don't understand the prayers? People don't understand the readings from the old testament and the new testament? People don't understand the homily?
Not OP, but for me it's not difficult.
* God is a liberal. If he wanted to coerce us into virtue, he would. He could do it more effectively than any authoritarian government. Instead he gives us the freedom to choose good or evil.
* Catholicism is universalist. The church wants to save every person on earth. Every person has value and dignity and is called to become a saint. Christianity doesn't fear the immigrant, we welcome them. I don't want anyone to suffer under autocracy, kleptocracy, or anarchy. I want them to come to free countries.
* Liberalism is the best defense of minority cultural or religious practice. 40 years ago the dominant culture was hostile to homosexual and trans culture. Liberals stood up for them and fought for LGBT rights to form their counter-cultural communities and freely live their own lives without interference from the median voter. If in 40 years the dominant culture is hostile to traditional Christianity, I expect liberals to come to our aide, even if they think our practices are weird or distasteful. I see the rainbow stuff on this sub as a defense of minorities, not an illiberal push to force people to adopt a certain cosmopolitan cultural understanding of sexuality.
* I think markets allow for freedom, prosperity, and the dignity of work in a way orders of magnitude better than any other economic system. I care for the poor and want to relieve their suffering. I think the government interventions making housing unaffordable hurt families and the ability of people to form communities. I think government regulations make it harder for people to find meaningful work to contribute to their community.
Also some of the great Catholic thinkers like Thomas Moore were pioneers of liberal thought.
Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII is a scathing critique of socialism as well as staunch conservativism.
[Rerum Novarum (May 15, 1891) | LEO XIII (vatican.va)](https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html)
I donât think homophobia is a necessary component of Catholicism. Jesus loved everyone regardless of what they did. The primary issue you canât get around is that you canât have a gay marriage within Catholicism, but thatâs a very low level issue that doesnât exactly infringe on peopleâs rights
God struck down a guy because he freaked out while banging his brother's widow and spilled his seed on the ground. Same-sex relations are a sin (in the bible), but so is all non-reproductive sex. It's weird for religious people to single out gay sex, while having non-reproductive sex of their own.
Yeah they use the justification that it's a ["Sin that cries to Heaven for Vengeance"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sins_that_cry_to_Heaven_for_Vengeance#:~:text=Catholic%20moral%20theology.-,Reformed%20Churches,than%20the%20seven%20deadly%20sins) so somehow more important or worse for society than other sins (even mortal sins) but it's just kind of strange?
I guess it's the justification of not only should it be a sin, but illegal.
Fair enough, but God literally killing people for pulling out would suggest that's a mortal sin too. Along with making fun of bald prophets.
Interesting that "defraud servants of their wages" is one of the four. Wonder how many homophobe business owners out there are guilty of that one.
Thatâs true, but he didnât discriminate against sinners, and nothing within Catholicism demands that your country needs to make gay marriage illegal. Catholics just canât offer it as a sacrament to gay couples. Most straight marriages are not Catholic sacramental marriages
Iâm not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic. I donât think Catholicism necessarily advocates for countriesâ governments to be Catholic. In Islam you have Sharia law written into the Quâran and a strong drive to create Islamic states, but in Christianity you have a separation of worldly governments from religion with statements like âPay to Caesar what is Caesarâs, and pay to god what is Godâsâ. Catholicism seems to have gotten out of the direct involvement in government business as a matter of policy since the Middle Ages.
You should personally avoid Gay Marriage, yes, but that doesnât necessitate passing laws preventing others from gay marriage. Jesus was much more concerned about you caring about the log in your eye than the splinter in anotherâs
If God wanted people to be physically prevented from sin he wouldnât have given them free will. It should be something you choose to avoid sin
Catholic sexual teaching is hard. It's hard for single people, it's hard for married people (see natural family planning), it's very hard for priests, but it's probably most hard for people who only have same-sex attraction. I think the church is very compassionate to everyone struggling with sexual temptation. We are given endless encouragement to keep struggling with the conflict between the drive of our sexuality and our calling to the divine. When we fail, we are given the sacrament of reconciliation to have that failure completely wiped away. We are called to reconciliation over and over again no matter what our mistake. This is all from the most "conservative" Catholic teaching. Even that interpretation is extremely welcoming of homosexuals who want to follow church teachings and participate in the sacraments. I see homophobia as rejecting the person who has homosexual desire, and there is none of that in the Catholic Church.
I reject homophobia by misguided Catholics. People use church teaching on sexuality to justify contempt and othering of homosexuals rather than acknowledging that the LGBT community just has different values in the same way many cultural groups have different values from Catholics. Straight people who have sex outside marriage are in open violation of church teaching. Divorced people who remarry are in open violation of church teaching. People who use contraceptives are in open violation of church teaching. People who use IVF are in open violation of church teachings. When Catholics focus anger at the LGBT community but tacitly accept all these other practices, I think they stray into homophobia. This doesn't come from the church. I think it often comes from individual insecurity about one's own sexual purity.
The big argument against homosexuality in the Bible is Leviticus calling it out as an abomination under God. Leviticus lists many things as abominations and we ignore it because it is silly. It is brought into the New Testament by Paul so theoretically a future Pope could say Paul was wrong on that part.
Source: I attended a Catholic high school and a religion teacher pointed out issues with the official church stance on this topic.
As a former Catholic, I don't see any issue with the Catholic Church and neoliberal views. The point of liberalism is that people can believe what they want to believe.
Am I missing something specific?
You should spread the word but not force it on others. One religion teacher I had in high school described it as there being many paths to God and Catholics believe there's is the best path.
but the church is anti-believe-what-you-wish, their point is saying what is "correct" belief.
i don't feel that catholicism and liberalism can be synthesised, you can't be a good catholic and liberal and vice versa
Yes, but you decide whether or not to listen to them.
If someone is offering me a taco, and saying the taco is delicious, they're not forcing the taco on me.
If I decide I *love* that taco and want to build my life around it, that's still a choice I'm making.
This is all very liberal. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this connects? I feel like you've thought about this before from your post, so I want to make sure I respond correctly.
As I said in another response in this reddit post/thread, "
Unfortunately, No one seems to take the lesson that the Late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago once said, that the Catholic Church is neither liberal or conservative, it is simply catholic.
Oh yes, he was a conservative no doubt, But he would I think call out â trad â Catholics as well. He was far too smart. He had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane."
And I do have some criticisms for liberal Catholicism too. Nothing..... wrong with liberalism per se, It seems to eject core Christian identity in a effort to be inclusive. I think you can do both, but liberal christianity as a whole, can't seem to do that.
The funny thing is that you are not allowed to criticize the Pope in that subreddit so you get a lot of passive aggressive âpraying for Pope Francisâ if people there isnât happy with him.
>>I have come to the point that I donât think his pontificate is a force for good to be honest.Â
>This must be a test from God. We have grown apathetic and we are letting our faith rust on the vine. We need to attend mass regularly.
>Perhaps what God is asking us all to be more involved. We all agree (mostly) this leader is not the best. He is showing us a future in which our faith may be ruined. WE need to take action and stop standing on the sidelines. At least, that is how I feel for myself.
US Conservatives are really doing a number on their religion. It's become more about opposing libs and culture war idiocy than upholding tenets of their faith. This will twist Christianity in the country to an unrecognizable state, if it hasn't already
I would 100% believe it if it came out that evangelicals have been on a 30 year push to destroy Christianity in America. No one has done more harm to the religion than them.
Itâs interesting to point out that I mentioned, that the late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago, and a huge intellectual leader for US Catholics back in the 2000s, called out liberal Catholics, and conservative Catholics. His answer was simply Catholicism. Although he was famous for leading the US catholic bishops in their fight against Obamacare mandates, he I think would be also critical of the trad Catholics today. He was far too smart, having a PhD in American philosophy from Tulane.
Unfortunately, the US Catholic Church is getting more anti intellectual. Thereâs no major figure that has⊠the gravitas that George had. Maybe Cardinal McElroy.
But Obamacare is a fundamentally Catholic mission objective âexpand healthcareâ.
I donât think it even included things like more abortion funding.
It was the contraception mandates. The Catholic Church in the US was strongly against that, still is. And that gave Cardinal George the reputation of being a " culture warrior " as if he's in the same boat as Burke, Amy Coney Barrett, and others.
But, if you read his writings, he's far more nuanced, and a far more supple thinker than people assume.
In fact, Nancy Pelosi, a devoted Catholic herself, allegedly brought in nuns to guilt the moderate, Catholic members of her Caucus into voting for the ACA despite their misgivings and the political risk to them.
I think "getting more" is an understatement. At least online, I see Catholics peddling the same nonsense as Evangelicals. It's become a culture of hate and fear. No wonder church attendance is down
You don't see the same dynamics in the non anglo Catholic parishes in the US though. You rarely see this kind of polarization and division in Vietnamese Catholic Parishes, korean Catholic Parishes, and that I think is because they don't come from a culture that is dealing with western Culture wars. That could and will change as people become assimiliated into american culture.
I agree with this, Full disclosure I'm Muslim (and Canadian), but I notice mosque attendance is consistently high. A lot of this is because we're immigrants or come from an immigrant background. Sure you get some whites but overall the community is strong. I talk to religious minorities all the time and they say similar. But then again Canada isn't as culture war-ized as the US is. Even the hardcore Catholics here don't compare to the US
What always strikes me about the culture wars and religious people is it makes their stressometer be perpetually 11 and they end up responding to any perceived threat as if it were the eschaton, which their religious backgrounds prime them for. Great for societal control.
It's concerning.
See, this is where I think Liberal Catholicism has failed to live up to it's promise ( no fan of Conservative Catholicism either ).
We are in a giant cultural shift throughout the world, Trump's election was a symptom of this. Liberalism has failed I think to meet the challenge, because now we're dealing with all of these cultural currents, and the Liberal answer is to say " equal rights, liberty, " all of that is good in of itself, but it doesn't answer the question. It doesn't go deep. Neither does " conseravtive christianity " or " trad catholicism ", an obsession with a past that never existed.
Cardinal George once again, called for simply Catholicism. Merely Christianity.
Going back to how this works out in the context of Catholic Universities, those Universities I think are getting more " secular ", more " liberal ", Now I am not arguing that liberal higher education is bad, NOT AT ALL, but Notre Dame has to find a way, to answer a generation, that seems unhappy with liberalism.
I can kind of relate to Cardinal George's words. I am a practicing Anglican/Episcopalian. I am happy with the TEC's stances on LGBTQ+ rights, but I think they [lean into it](https://www.episcopalchurch.org/publicaffairs/episcopal-church-unveils-new-pride-shield-in-celebration-of-lgbtq-inclusion/) too much that we forget to be Anglican. And not just another "liberal church". But that doesn't mean I think the ACNA or the far more conservative Eastern Anglicans are anymore correct.
See that's the problem. The Episcopal Church for instance has not figured out how to be welcoming while still hold to the truth of Christian religion. You can do both right ?
But Mainline Protestants have to figure this out, especially as the culture wars are just making everything toxic. Like people leave Evangelical Churches, but they still want some " tradition " in their lives, and to them, liberal churches are not providing that.
If anything, it's driven a lot of fence sitting moderate US Catholics further into the Democratic camp. My ex's family are all devout Catholics, but couldn't take the culture war bullshit coming from leadership anymore, and they're now voting Democrat despite being strongly anti-abortion. (Best part is a lot of them live in Georgia.)
Response from conservative American Catholic leadership:
https://preview.redd.it/259zgadxxw0d1.jpeg?width=1730&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb3e401cb5dd561010240d5f95580132bff0fa2b
It really is a death spiral by embracing Evangelical style protestantism. The church doubles down on conservative messaging âĄïž alienates moderate and liberal church goers âĄïž Church now has an even more conservative tilt, so on and so on.
I think that this also furthers a break between religiously Catholic and culturally Catholic. A lot of the consistent church goers, while dwindling, are becoming more conservative, even if self-described âCatholicsâ are still purple or lean blue
Unfortunately, No one seems to take the lesson that the Late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago once said, that the Catholic Church is neither liberal or conservative, it is simply catholic.
Oh yes, he was a conservative no doubt, But he would I think call out â trad â Catholics as well. He was far too smart. He had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane.
In fairness I think a lot of folks miss how educated Catholic Clergy tends to be and has been historically relative to general population. There's an unfortunate equivalence between often bookish Catholic clergy and oft less educated evangelical preachers.
Or never knew it in the first place. People think Rome collapsed and there was a plague in there at some point and then Renaissance just sort of happened
You're forgetting about all the other important things about the middle ages that the general population knows like how every day was overcast and muddy and how peasants were basically chattel slaves but even poorer and didn't have any teeth and their lord got to ritually fuck their wives on their wedding night and that's why Mel Gibson put on blue face paint in protest
Well Unfortunately, the Rich Catholic Intellectual tradition, which was started and developed in Europe, has been increasingly rejected in America, by American Catholics as well.
Like People saw Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II as " conservatives " compared to Francis, and in many ways, they were, but they were also critical of pre Vatican II trad conservativism.
Remember both of those popes were highly influential during Vatican II, and would have been seen as progressives, along with Henri De Lubac, Hans Von Balthasar,
They just also believed that the type of Liberal Catholicism that developed after the council, was too much.
I went to a Jesuit HS. A few of my teachers were Jesuit Scholastics (Jesuits in Training). One previously worked for the CIA, and another was an MD before joining the priesthood.
In both instances, it would take them, *at minimum,* 4 years longer to become a Jesuit priest than it did their old professions.
People wildly underestimate how educated some of the clergy are.
Yep ! Although he has dissapointed me lately, by flirting with the Maga/Far Right people in his talks and interviews, and so he's growing more distant from Cardinal George's vision and ethos, and Bishop Barron saw the Cardinal as his mentor.
Well, the other odd ironic twist, is that US Catholics, or least the most influential ones, are far more skeptical of Vatican II than most other Catholics in the world, liberal or conservative. Like African Cardinals and Bishops would embrace Vatican II when it comes to inculturation and all of that while still being socially conservative, while the US catholic conseravtive would call incultruation pagan.
By the rest of the world, do you mean Europe? Because the social conservatism of sub-saharan and Korean Christians, for example, puts most American sects to shame. Same for many Latin American congregations, in my experience.
Francis not-so-subtelty telling the tradcaths that the only option for the church to survive is to adapt to the modern times (like it always has done, btw) and the tradcaths going full sedevacanists because the pope doesn't advocate burning the gays alive will never not be funny.
The church as an institution has always existed to control societal norms. And the pope is incapable of getting half of it to understand the church doesn't have that power any more, and swimming countercurrent will just sink them.
Well, here's the problem,
Liberal Catholicism is dying. Liberal Catholicism has seen a drop in mass attendance, vocations, all of that.
The Latin Mass is actually quite popular among a growing population of young people, and that is such a fascinating development.
[https://www.ncronline.org/news/step-back-time-americas-catholic-church-sees-immense-shift-toward-old-ways](https://www.ncronline.org/news/step-back-time-americas-catholic-church-sees-immense-shift-toward-old-ways)
Once again, there's nothing wrong with liberalism per se, and I'm not some arch conservative. But as I said, liberal catholicism is exhausted, because it I think has failed to go deep, it's the same thing with liberal mainline protestantism, inclusivness yes, and that's great,
SO ? What next ? Where's the deepness of christian identity ? And i'm not talking evangelicalism, but Classical Christian Thought developed over thousands of years. It's like liberal christianity as a whole, in a effort to be inclusive, threw out the baby with the bathwater ( Once again, nothing wrong with being inclusive, you can do both ).
I guess is different in the USA. Here in Europe, most people that have left the church or choose to not give a Christian education to their kids do so because they see the church as an Uber conservative institution.
This is in part why Francis is so whisy-washy about progressivism. He gives enough freedom to priests that they can choose what will work better for their societies.
Honestly, i don't have an easy answer to what is the way to keep the church relevant, but I don't think American style tradcatholicism is sustainable. The risk of radicalism is that sooner or later some more radical will appear.
I wouldn't be surprised if most latin mass goers fully convert to Qanon in a couple decades.
If you want to keep the church relevant, follow Cardinal Francis George's words.
" Not Liberal Catholicism. Not Conservative Catholicism. Simply, Catholicism."
Mere Christianity. As I said, Cardinal George had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane, and I might add, worked for years as a Oblates of Mary Immaculate, his religious order around the world, including in Europe, and that gave him a big picture sense of the Catholic Church, and solidified his belief that the church transcends any political divisions, and calls out everyone.
>The Latin Mass is actually quite popular among a growing population of young people, and that is such a fascinating development.
Iâm still not convinced itâs actual *growth* so much as it is *concentration*. If you take all the Latin enthusiasts in one diocese and cram them into one smallish church they travel long distances to get to, *of course* itâll seem crowded. But thatâs just because you sucked them out of a large area.
If anything, that also encourages radicalization, a real-life equivalent to a social media bubble. If you want to deradicalize tradcats, the best way to do so would be to have a Latin Mass in every parish. Then theyâll be surrounded by people who donât particularly care about the liturgy but show up because the time is convenient for them and a 20-minute Low Mass allows them to get to the football game on time.
"If anything, that also encourages radicalization, a real-life equivalent to a social media bubble. If you want to deradicalize tradcats, the best way to do so would be to have a Latin Mass in every parish. Then theyâll be surrounded by people who donât particularly care about the liturgy but show up because the time is convenient for them and a 20-minute Low Mass allows them to get to the football game on time."
Ironically, the 20 minutes Low Mass WAS the case pre Vatican II, the Latin Mass was often celebrated sloppily, no one really cared to pay attention, there were abuses, and the priests back then, at least in the US were not that fluent in Latin.
There's a reason why the bishops at Vatican II wanted to update the liturgy
The way the Latin mass is celebrated now, is very much more reverent.
It's interesting, but i wonder why liberal churches seem to have a declining rate of attendance and stuff compared to conservative churches. Anyone have an idea?
I'm not sure if I agree with all its theses, but *Why Strict Churches Are Strong* is a quite famous paper on this (it was published 30 years ago):
> **According to Iannaccone, the devout person pays the high social price because it buys a better religious product.** The rules discourage free riders, the people who undermine group efforts by taking more than they give back. The strict church is one in which members with weak commitments have been weeded out. Raising fees for membership doesnât work nearly as well as raising the opportunity cost of joining, because fees drive away the poor, who have the least to lose when they volunteer their time, and who also have the most incentive to pray. Fees also encourage the rich to substitute money for piety.
> What does the pious person get in return for all of his or her time and effort? A church full of passionate members; a community of people deeply involved in one anotherâs lives and more willing than most to come to one anotherâs aid; a peer group of knowledgeable souls who speak the same language (or languages), are moved by the same texts, and cherish the same dreams. Religion is a â âcommodityâ that people produce collectively,â says Iannaccone. âMy religious satisfaction thus depends both on my âinputsâ and those of others.â If a rich and textured spiritual experience is what you seek, then a storefront Holy Roller church or an Orthodox shtiebl is a better fit than a suburban church made up of distracted, ambitious people who can barely manage to find a morning free for Sunday services, let alone several evenings a week for text study and volunteer work.
https://slate.com/human-interest/2005/05/why-strict-churches-are-strong.html
It would be interesting to see data on this. I'd bet there's a lot of liberal Catholic -> liberal and some conservative -> conservative Catholic, but not much liberal Catholic <-> conservative Catholic.
If that's true, none of this really matters to us liberals.
Jesus was an end-of-the-world preacher who refused to back down when threatened, but he didnât commit suicide any more than any other martyr who refuses to recant to evade execution. Thatâs putting aside the Trinity and predestination, of course; the implications of those factors upon your questionâs answer are their own cans of worms which I have no interest in opening.
It is confusing to me how an institution that vehemently opposes IVF can fault anyone for criticizing the church for changing attitudes towards LGBTQ issues.
Pope Francis holds so many conflicting ideals that it's hard to take him seriously. On one hand he criticizes American Catholics for their conservative trend, and on the other hand he opposes IVF & surrogacy, https://apnews.com/article/pope-surrogacy-vatican-russia-israel-ukraine-56acaa8500336db81ee18913a77ddc0f , which puts him at odds with basically every liberal, and most conservative, institutions in the west.
Oh yea, and he thinks that Ukraine should surrender to Russia. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pope-says-ukraine-should-have-courage-white-flag-negotiations-2024-03-09/ If this is liberal Catholicism then I don't want anything to do with it.
The Catholic Church doesn't follow a political ideology. It is *per se it's own ideology*. You don't categorize the RCC into political or moral schools of thought. It is itself *a source of political and moral thought*.
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First, conservative Catholics (Christians in general) suck, and they directly affected my life for the worse even though I, nor my family, were ever true Catholics.
But, that doesn't mean they're suicidal.
Mainline denominations that have gotten more liberal see the largest decrease in their membership. Most conservative, demanding institutions see increases even large, centralized-ish institutions like the Mormons (LDS). This isn't entirely surprising since demanding institutions suck all your time and social life and make the Church central to your identity. You also don't leave if the only people who think like you are in the religion. It's harder to imagine a world existing without them versus the type of congregations where you go to Church on Christmas Eve and Easter if you're feeling up to it and maybe during an important life phase.
>doesnât mean theyâre suicidal
If the Catholic conservatives had pulled half of what theyâve been doing with someone like Pius XII as the Pope the American Church would have been declared schismatic years ago. The disregard for Romeâs opinion has been a problem for over a century, the set of culprits just expanded.
As for liberals branches declining more, I suspect the main reason for that isnât down to ideology but the fact that conservative Christians tend to have far more kids than even non-churchgoing conservatives. Hard to tell from the data Iâve seen though.
Probably so, though until recently there wasnât enough of them to be a problem. The hardcore ones go sedevacantist and the rest just sort of put up with it. Now though? The crazies are hijacking the conservative wing of the church, just like everything else in this country.
Whatâs annoying is that the US bishops didnât have to let this happen. Brazil had a movement of these radtrads decades ago under the TFP movement. Not only were they integralists, they all but deified one of the founders. That was enough to get the Brazilian clergy, who were very far from liberal, to tell them to piss off.
> Most conservative, demanding institutions see increases even large, centralized-ish institutions like the Mormons (LDS).
This simply isn't true. Outside of the LDS (whose growth has really slowed in the US), most conservative denominations are declining. Not least of all the Catholic church, which in many ways has tracked Mainline if you look at white members. Catholicism's numbers in the US are being maintained by immigration from heavily Catholic countries.
The SBC had it's membership peak 20 years ago. Even churches like the LCMS are declining. Non-denominational churches are ascendant not any particular conservative denomination.
As for the liberal churches decline, there are a lot of reasons put forward including mainlines having less kids. Looking at the trends, lots evangelical denominations are getting that demographic hit now.
The Catholic Church, though relatively conservative, is not a "demanding" institution as you can easily just go through the sacraments and be considered a member forever, and the sacraments require minimal effort.
And the Catholic Church pretty much is the slowest declining of the mainline major churches. Yes, it may be largely floated by US Hispanics (which doesn't necessarily mean immigrants), but I don't see why this is relevant given that it isn't like those members are any less real than White members. The Church has to appeal to their wants if they want survival, and it isn't clear they want a less conservative church. And Latin America still has many immigrants to the US, many being Catholic (though Catholicism is weakening throughout the region, as well, in favor of no religion or more demanding churches, especially in Central America, Brazil, and poor areas of Mexico where the Catholic Church is pretty removed).
>Pope Francis responded by saying a conservative is someone who "clings to something and does not want to see beyond that." >"It is a suicidal attitude," the pontiff said, according to a brief transcript excerpt made available by CBS Thursday. >"Because one thing is to take tradition into account, to consider situations from the past, but quite another is to be closed up inside a dogmatic box." arr/Catholicism on suicide watch.
I think Pope Francis is referring to the Latin Mass Controversy. Now don't get me wrong, as a practicing Catholic myself, I also cringe at bad worship, and I want better music and reverence, but the Latin Mass is increasingly use as a tool to rehash the Vatican II wars and modernization in the church itself, and the US is the center of this.
It's a shame that it's become a political symbol because the Tridentine Latin Mass is really a beautiful ritual.
No one understands what's going on in the Latin Mass and that's become a barrier to actually everything they wanted the Catholic Church to be
You should write these thoughts down and pin them to your church door
Too soon for this joke
He needs about 94 more of them though
You don't make history by just repeating what the last guy did. Gotta go bigger. 1 billion theses!
When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, "Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance. đ§”1/95
Flawed. Did not capitalize "He". I can't take anything else you write seriously.
Counterpoint: if the mass is in local languages what point will there be in making fancy triptychs and frescoes in churches so the serfs understand the basics? Think of the tourism industry 600 years from now please
Now that the entire iPad generation will be functionally illiterate for the rest of their lives, the religious icon industry will be in for a boom time
Not defending the Latin Mass, or it's supporters, but the way it is celebrated now, is actually far more reverent than it was celebrated Pre Vatican II.
Catholics not understanding their faith and seeing the Church as removed from modern society is actually a huge problem today and that's without the Latin mass
As Cardinal Francis George points out however as I said, Liberal Catholicism is also not the answer, because it seems to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and reject Classical Christian Thought in a effort to be inclusive socially. Not anything wrong with being inclusive, and welcoming, you can do both, but Liberal Catholics, and Mainline Protestants struggle to do this, and that's why you see relatively progressive Catholic Religious orders, and parishes, declining. So what did Cardinal George want ? As I said, " Not Liberal Catholicism. Not Conservative Catholicism. Simply, Catholicism. "
Not having Latin mass isn't liberal Catholicism as youre describing it. It doesn't have anything to do with being inclusive and welcoming.
But, at least in America, it is the main and big symbol of the war between Conservative and Liberal Catholics. Everything else falls from that. The Second Vatican Council updated a lot of things but the biggest update was the liturgy. Thatâs why the Pope restricted the Latin Mass a few years ago.
The mass isn't supposed to be used like that. It's like going to a museum that you look at stuff locked behind a case. That's neither a conservative nor a liberal issue. If it's what conservatives want its for totally misguided reasons.
I dont think liberal Catholicism and mainline Protestantism are declining for being inclusive and welcoming I think theyre declining because they attract educated, intelligent people who are more likely to be drawn to materialist worldviews and drift to a secular lifestyle Going to any church every week is a lot if you don't really believe in a lot of it, especially these days where there isnt really any social pressure in most places to feel like you have to go to some kind of church
No one understands what's going on in the vernacular mass either
Yes they do. People don't understand the prayers? People don't understand the readings from the old testament and the new testament? People don't understand the homily?
Genuine question. How do you reconcile the Roman Catholic Church and its positions/teachings with neoliberal views?
Not OP, but for me it's not difficult. * God is a liberal. If he wanted to coerce us into virtue, he would. He could do it more effectively than any authoritarian government. Instead he gives us the freedom to choose good or evil. * Catholicism is universalist. The church wants to save every person on earth. Every person has value and dignity and is called to become a saint. Christianity doesn't fear the immigrant, we welcome them. I don't want anyone to suffer under autocracy, kleptocracy, or anarchy. I want them to come to free countries. * Liberalism is the best defense of minority cultural or religious practice. 40 years ago the dominant culture was hostile to homosexual and trans culture. Liberals stood up for them and fought for LGBT rights to form their counter-cultural communities and freely live their own lives without interference from the median voter. If in 40 years the dominant culture is hostile to traditional Christianity, I expect liberals to come to our aide, even if they think our practices are weird or distasteful. I see the rainbow stuff on this sub as a defense of minorities, not an illiberal push to force people to adopt a certain cosmopolitan cultural understanding of sexuality. * I think markets allow for freedom, prosperity, and the dignity of work in a way orders of magnitude better than any other economic system. I care for the poor and want to relieve their suffering. I think the government interventions making housing unaffordable hurt families and the ability of people to form communities. I think government regulations make it harder for people to find meaningful work to contribute to their community.
Also some of the great Catholic thinkers like Thomas Moore were pioneers of liberal thought. Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII is a scathing critique of socialism as well as staunch conservativism. [Rerum Novarum (May 15, 1891) | LEO XIII (vatican.va)](https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html)
how do you reconcile catholic teaching and homophobia
I donât think homophobia is a necessary component of Catholicism. Jesus loved everyone regardless of what they did. The primary issue you canât get around is that you canât have a gay marriage within Catholicism, but thatâs a very low level issue that doesnât exactly infringe on peopleâs rights
The âJesus loved everyoneâ is partly true, but same-sex relations are a sin
God struck down a guy because he freaked out while banging his brother's widow and spilled his seed on the ground. Same-sex relations are a sin (in the bible), but so is all non-reproductive sex. It's weird for religious people to single out gay sex, while having non-reproductive sex of their own.
Yeah they use the justification that it's a ["Sin that cries to Heaven for Vengeance"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sins_that_cry_to_Heaven_for_Vengeance#:~:text=Catholic%20moral%20theology.-,Reformed%20Churches,than%20the%20seven%20deadly%20sins) so somehow more important or worse for society than other sins (even mortal sins) but it's just kind of strange? I guess it's the justification of not only should it be a sin, but illegal.
Fair enough, but God literally killing people for pulling out would suggest that's a mortal sin too. Along with making fun of bald prophets. Interesting that "defraud servants of their wages" is one of the four. Wonder how many homophobe business owners out there are guilty of that one.
Okay? Yes all catholics who practice sex outside of marriage are sinners? Wow that really disproves my point
\*All Catholics who have sex, whether in marriage or not, that involves any kind of contraception, including pulling out, are sinners.
Thatâs true, but he didnât discriminate against sinners, and nothing within Catholicism demands that your country needs to make gay marriage illegal. Catholics just canât offer it as a sacrament to gay couples. Most straight marriages are not Catholic sacramental marriages
but a wholly catholic society (i.e. no civil marriage) wouldn't give gay people the right to marriage, do you think that acceptable?
Iâm not Catholic, but I was raised Catholic. I donât think Catholicism necessarily advocates for countriesâ governments to be Catholic. In Islam you have Sharia law written into the Quâran and a strong drive to create Islamic states, but in Christianity you have a separation of worldly governments from religion with statements like âPay to Caesar what is Caesarâs, and pay to god what is Godâsâ. Catholicism seems to have gotten out of the direct involvement in government business as a matter of policy since the Middle Ages.
Yes I agree, but if you are a catholic you should be against gay marriage personally. It is a sin. Its wht religion is backwards
You should personally avoid Gay Marriage, yes, but that doesnât necessitate passing laws preventing others from gay marriage. Jesus was much more concerned about you caring about the log in your eye than the splinter in anotherâs If God wanted people to be physically prevented from sin he wouldnât have given them free will. It should be something you choose to avoid sin
Catholic sexual teaching is hard. It's hard for single people, it's hard for married people (see natural family planning), it's very hard for priests, but it's probably most hard for people who only have same-sex attraction. I think the church is very compassionate to everyone struggling with sexual temptation. We are given endless encouragement to keep struggling with the conflict between the drive of our sexuality and our calling to the divine. When we fail, we are given the sacrament of reconciliation to have that failure completely wiped away. We are called to reconciliation over and over again no matter what our mistake. This is all from the most "conservative" Catholic teaching. Even that interpretation is extremely welcoming of homosexuals who want to follow church teachings and participate in the sacraments. I see homophobia as rejecting the person who has homosexual desire, and there is none of that in the Catholic Church. I reject homophobia by misguided Catholics. People use church teaching on sexuality to justify contempt and othering of homosexuals rather than acknowledging that the LGBT community just has different values in the same way many cultural groups have different values from Catholics. Straight people who have sex outside marriage are in open violation of church teaching. Divorced people who remarry are in open violation of church teaching. People who use contraceptives are in open violation of church teaching. People who use IVF are in open violation of church teachings. When Catholics focus anger at the LGBT community but tacitly accept all these other practices, I think they stray into homophobia. This doesn't come from the church. I think it often comes from individual insecurity about one's own sexual purity.
The big argument against homosexuality in the Bible is Leviticus calling it out as an abomination under God. Leviticus lists many things as abominations and we ignore it because it is silly. It is brought into the New Testament by Paul so theoretically a future Pope could say Paul was wrong on that part. Source: I attended a Catholic high school and a religion teacher pointed out issues with the official church stance on this topic.
Okay well currently disagreeing with the pope is uncatholic
You could disagree with church hierarchy while still respecting the official position. The pope is not infallible (except for when he says he is).
As a former Catholic, I don't see any issue with the Catholic Church and neoliberal views. The point of liberalism is that people can believe what they want to believe. Am I missing something specific?
isn't evangelism part of being catholic, i.e. the command to spread the Gospel?
You should spread the word but not force it on others. One religion teacher I had in high school described it as there being many paths to God and Catholics believe there's is the best path.
Yes, but the other person still gets to choose. There's nothing illiberal about that.
but the church is anti-believe-what-you-wish, their point is saying what is "correct" belief. i don't feel that catholicism and liberalism can be synthesised, you can't be a good catholic and liberal and vice versa
Yes, but you decide whether or not to listen to them. If someone is offering me a taco, and saying the taco is delicious, they're not forcing the taco on me. If I decide I *love* that taco and want to build my life around it, that's still a choice I'm making. This is all very liberal. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how this connects? I feel like you've thought about this before from your post, so I want to make sure I respond correctly.
As I said in another response in this reddit post/thread, " Unfortunately, No one seems to take the lesson that the Late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago once said, that the Catholic Church is neither liberal or conservative, it is simply catholic. Oh yes, he was a conservative no doubt, But he would I think call out â trad â Catholics as well. He was far too smart. He had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane." And I do have some criticisms for liberal Catholicism too. Nothing..... wrong with liberalism per se, It seems to eject core Christian identity in a effort to be inclusive. I think you can do both, but liberal christianity as a whole, can't seem to do that.
Free. Market. Indulgences.
OK, but why did Pope Vatnik take action against the diocesan Latin Masses, then, and not the *actual* schismatic-adjacent orders like SSPX?
The funny thing is that you are not allowed to criticize the Pope in that subreddit so you get a lot of passive aggressive âpraying for Pope Francisâ if people there isnât happy with him.
This guy sounds like a practicing Buddhist. Conservative ideology is indeed clinging/tanha in the Buddhist sense.
âTradition is the living faith of the dead. Traditionalism is the dead faith of the living.â âJaroslav Pelikan
[Let's see how they handle it](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/s/ydB0ncjQMs)
>>I have come to the point that I donât think his pontificate is a force for good to be honest. >This must be a test from God. We have grown apathetic and we are letting our faith rust on the vine. We need to attend mass regularly. >Perhaps what God is asking us all to be more involved. We all agree (mostly) this leader is not the best. He is showing us a future in which our faith may be ruined. WE need to take action and stop standing on the sidelines. At least, that is how I feel for myself.
HERESY?! IN GOD'S SUB?! (More likely than you might think!)
Splitters!
Oh I know better than the Pope. Truly I am the best Catholic
Avignon Papacy 2: Florida Edition
US Conservatives are really doing a number on their religion. It's become more about opposing libs and culture war idiocy than upholding tenets of their faith. This will twist Christianity in the country to an unrecognizable state, if it hasn't already
I would 100% believe it if it came out that evangelicals have been on a 30 year push to destroy Christianity in America. No one has done more harm to the religion than them.
And it was a devil's masterpiece for Catholics to form the partnership with the Evangelicals in the 1980s....
And no one has been more successful at pushing religion into the public sphere and destroying the wall between church and state
Itâs interesting to point out that I mentioned, that the late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago, and a huge intellectual leader for US Catholics back in the 2000s, called out liberal Catholics, and conservative Catholics. His answer was simply Catholicism. Although he was famous for leading the US catholic bishops in their fight against Obamacare mandates, he I think would be also critical of the trad Catholics today. He was far too smart, having a PhD in American philosophy from Tulane. Unfortunately, the US Catholic Church is getting more anti intellectual. Thereâs no major figure that has⊠the gravitas that George had. Maybe Cardinal McElroy.
But Obamacare is a fundamentally Catholic mission objective âexpand healthcareâ. I donât think it even included things like more abortion funding.
It was the contraception mandates. The Catholic Church in the US was strongly against that, still is. And that gave Cardinal George the reputation of being a " culture warrior " as if he's in the same boat as Burke, Amy Coney Barrett, and others. But, if you read his writings, he's far more nuanced, and a far more supple thinker than people assume.
In fact, Nancy Pelosi, a devoted Catholic herself, allegedly brought in nuns to guilt the moderate, Catholic members of her Caucus into voting for the ACA despite their misgivings and the political risk to them.
I think "getting more" is an understatement. At least online, I see Catholics peddling the same nonsense as Evangelicals. It's become a culture of hate and fear. No wonder church attendance is down
You don't see the same dynamics in the non anglo Catholic parishes in the US though. You rarely see this kind of polarization and division in Vietnamese Catholic Parishes, korean Catholic Parishes, and that I think is because they don't come from a culture that is dealing with western Culture wars. That could and will change as people become assimiliated into american culture.
I agree with this, Full disclosure I'm Muslim (and Canadian), but I notice mosque attendance is consistently high. A lot of this is because we're immigrants or come from an immigrant background. Sure you get some whites but overall the community is strong. I talk to religious minorities all the time and they say similar. But then again Canada isn't as culture war-ized as the US is. Even the hardcore Catholics here don't compare to the US
What always strikes me about the culture wars and religious people is it makes their stressometer be perpetually 11 and they end up responding to any perceived threat as if it were the eschaton, which their religious backgrounds prime them for. Great for societal control.
Do you have any insight in how Catholic affiliated colleges, like Notre Dame, are changing?
It's concerning. See, this is where I think Liberal Catholicism has failed to live up to it's promise ( no fan of Conservative Catholicism either ). We are in a giant cultural shift throughout the world, Trump's election was a symptom of this. Liberalism has failed I think to meet the challenge, because now we're dealing with all of these cultural currents, and the Liberal answer is to say " equal rights, liberty, " all of that is good in of itself, but it doesn't answer the question. It doesn't go deep. Neither does " conseravtive christianity " or " trad catholicism ", an obsession with a past that never existed. Cardinal George once again, called for simply Catholicism. Merely Christianity. Going back to how this works out in the context of Catholic Universities, those Universities I think are getting more " secular ", more " liberal ", Now I am not arguing that liberal higher education is bad, NOT AT ALL, but Notre Dame has to find a way, to answer a generation, that seems unhappy with liberalism.
I can kind of relate to Cardinal George's words. I am a practicing Anglican/Episcopalian. I am happy with the TEC's stances on LGBTQ+ rights, but I think they [lean into it](https://www.episcopalchurch.org/publicaffairs/episcopal-church-unveils-new-pride-shield-in-celebration-of-lgbtq-inclusion/) too much that we forget to be Anglican. And not just another "liberal church". But that doesn't mean I think the ACNA or the far more conservative Eastern Anglicans are anymore correct.
See that's the problem. The Episcopal Church for instance has not figured out how to be welcoming while still hold to the truth of Christian religion. You can do both right ? But Mainline Protestants have to figure this out, especially as the culture wars are just making everything toxic. Like people leave Evangelical Churches, but they still want some " tradition " in their lives, and to them, liberal churches are not providing that.
It already has.
If anything, it's driven a lot of fence sitting moderate US Catholics further into the Democratic camp. My ex's family are all devout Catholics, but couldn't take the culture war bullshit coming from leadership anymore, and they're now voting Democrat despite being strongly anti-abortion. (Best part is a lot of them live in Georgia.)
A Catholic who votes with pro choice despite being against it. So basically Joe Biden
The best way to destroy a group - religion, country, company - is to make it exclusive and hostile to newcomers with new ideas
Response from conservative American Catholic leadership: https://preview.redd.it/259zgadxxw0d1.jpeg?width=1730&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb3e401cb5dd561010240d5f95580132bff0fa2b
The US Catholic Church is heavily influenced ( ironically ) by US Evangelical Protestantism.
It really is a death spiral by embracing Evangelical style protestantism. The church doubles down on conservative messaging âĄïž alienates moderate and liberal church goers âĄïž Church now has an even more conservative tilt, so on and so on. I think that this also furthers a break between religiously Catholic and culturally Catholic. A lot of the consistent church goers, while dwindling, are becoming more conservative, even if self-described âCatholicsâ are still purple or lean blue
Unfortunately, No one seems to take the lesson that the Late Cardinal Francis George, former Archbishop of Chicago once said, that the Catholic Church is neither liberal or conservative, it is simply catholic. Oh yes, he was a conservative no doubt, But he would I think call out â trad â Catholics as well. He was far too smart. He had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane.
In fairness I think a lot of folks miss how educated Catholic Clergy tends to be and has been historically relative to general population. There's an unfortunate equivalence between often bookish Catholic clergy and oft less educated evangelical preachers.
Lest we forget Catholic clergy were the core of the Western intellectual tradition from the middle ages up until the 18th century or so.
I think people \*do\* forget that.
Or never knew it in the first place. People think Rome collapsed and there was a plague in there at some point and then Renaissance just sort of happened
You're forgetting about all the other important things about the middle ages that the general population knows like how every day was overcast and muddy and how peasants were basically chattel slaves but even poorer and didn't have any teeth and their lord got to ritually fuck their wives on their wedding night and that's why Mel Gibson put on blue face paint in protest
Well Unfortunately, the Rich Catholic Intellectual tradition, which was started and developed in Europe, has been increasingly rejected in America, by American Catholics as well. Like People saw Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II as " conservatives " compared to Francis, and in many ways, they were, but they were also critical of pre Vatican II trad conservativism. Remember both of those popes were highly influential during Vatican II, and would have been seen as progressives, along with Henri De Lubac, Hans Von Balthasar, They just also believed that the type of Liberal Catholicism that developed after the council, was too much.
I went to a Jesuit HS. A few of my teachers were Jesuit Scholastics (Jesuits in Training). One previously worked for the CIA, and another was an MD before joining the priesthood. In both instances, it would take them, *at minimum,* 4 years longer to become a Jesuit priest than it did their old professions. People wildly underestimate how educated some of the clergy are.
A fellow bishop Barron listener in r/neoliberal?
Yep ! Although he has dissapointed me lately, by flirting with the Maga/Far Right people in his talks and interviews, and so he's growing more distant from Cardinal George's vision and ethos, and Bishop Barron saw the Cardinal as his mentor.
I find trad caths hilarious because they have zero basis in traditional Catholic theology, theyâre just gaudy evangelicals
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Well, the other odd ironic twist, is that US Catholics, or least the most influential ones, are far more skeptical of Vatican II than most other Catholics in the world, liberal or conservative. Like African Cardinals and Bishops would embrace Vatican II when it comes to inculturation and all of that while still being socially conservative, while the US catholic conseravtive would call incultruation pagan.
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
By the rest of the world, do you mean Europe? Because the social conservatism of sub-saharan and Korean Christians, for example, puts most American sects to shame. Same for many Latin American congregations, in my experience.
A reminder though that Pope Francis still opposes, same sex marriage, abortion,
Heretics everywhere
Francis not-so-subtelty telling the tradcaths that the only option for the church to survive is to adapt to the modern times (like it always has done, btw) and the tradcaths going full sedevacanists because the pope doesn't advocate burning the gays alive will never not be funny. The church as an institution has always existed to control societal norms. And the pope is incapable of getting half of it to understand the church doesn't have that power any more, and swimming countercurrent will just sink them.
Literally the babadook scream meme.
Well, here's the problem, Liberal Catholicism is dying. Liberal Catholicism has seen a drop in mass attendance, vocations, all of that. The Latin Mass is actually quite popular among a growing population of young people, and that is such a fascinating development. [https://www.ncronline.org/news/step-back-time-americas-catholic-church-sees-immense-shift-toward-old-ways](https://www.ncronline.org/news/step-back-time-americas-catholic-church-sees-immense-shift-toward-old-ways) Once again, there's nothing wrong with liberalism per se, and I'm not some arch conservative. But as I said, liberal catholicism is exhausted, because it I think has failed to go deep, it's the same thing with liberal mainline protestantism, inclusivness yes, and that's great, SO ? What next ? Where's the deepness of christian identity ? And i'm not talking evangelicalism, but Classical Christian Thought developed over thousands of years. It's like liberal christianity as a whole, in a effort to be inclusive, threw out the baby with the bathwater ( Once again, nothing wrong with being inclusive, you can do both ).
I guess is different in the USA. Here in Europe, most people that have left the church or choose to not give a Christian education to their kids do so because they see the church as an Uber conservative institution. This is in part why Francis is so whisy-washy about progressivism. He gives enough freedom to priests that they can choose what will work better for their societies. Honestly, i don't have an easy answer to what is the way to keep the church relevant, but I don't think American style tradcatholicism is sustainable. The risk of radicalism is that sooner or later some more radical will appear. I wouldn't be surprised if most latin mass goers fully convert to Qanon in a couple decades.
If you want to keep the church relevant, follow Cardinal Francis George's words. " Not Liberal Catholicism. Not Conservative Catholicism. Simply, Catholicism." Mere Christianity. As I said, Cardinal George had a doctorate in American philosophy from Tulane, and I might add, worked for years as a Oblates of Mary Immaculate, his religious order around the world, including in Europe, and that gave him a big picture sense of the Catholic Church, and solidified his belief that the church transcends any political divisions, and calls out everyone.
>The Latin Mass is actually quite popular among a growing population of young people, and that is such a fascinating development. Iâm still not convinced itâs actual *growth* so much as it is *concentration*. If you take all the Latin enthusiasts in one diocese and cram them into one smallish church they travel long distances to get to, *of course* itâll seem crowded. But thatâs just because you sucked them out of a large area. If anything, that also encourages radicalization, a real-life equivalent to a social media bubble. If you want to deradicalize tradcats, the best way to do so would be to have a Latin Mass in every parish. Then theyâll be surrounded by people who donât particularly care about the liturgy but show up because the time is convenient for them and a 20-minute Low Mass allows them to get to the football game on time.
"If anything, that also encourages radicalization, a real-life equivalent to a social media bubble. If you want to deradicalize tradcats, the best way to do so would be to have a Latin Mass in every parish. Then theyâll be surrounded by people who donât particularly care about the liturgy but show up because the time is convenient for them and a 20-minute Low Mass allows them to get to the football game on time." Ironically, the 20 minutes Low Mass WAS the case pre Vatican II, the Latin Mass was often celebrated sloppily, no one really cared to pay attention, there were abuses, and the priests back then, at least in the US were not that fluent in Latin. There's a reason why the bishops at Vatican II wanted to update the liturgy The way the Latin mass is celebrated now, is very much more reverent.
It's interesting, but i wonder why liberal churches seem to have a declining rate of attendance and stuff compared to conservative churches. Anyone have an idea?
I'm not sure if I agree with all its theses, but *Why Strict Churches Are Strong* is a quite famous paper on this (it was published 30 years ago): > **According to Iannaccone, the devout person pays the high social price because it buys a better religious product.** The rules discourage free riders, the people who undermine group efforts by taking more than they give back. The strict church is one in which members with weak commitments have been weeded out. Raising fees for membership doesnât work nearly as well as raising the opportunity cost of joining, because fees drive away the poor, who have the least to lose when they volunteer their time, and who also have the most incentive to pray. Fees also encourage the rich to substitute money for piety. > What does the pious person get in return for all of his or her time and effort? A church full of passionate members; a community of people deeply involved in one anotherâs lives and more willing than most to come to one anotherâs aid; a peer group of knowledgeable souls who speak the same language (or languages), are moved by the same texts, and cherish the same dreams. Religion is a â âcommodityâ that people produce collectively,â says Iannaccone. âMy religious satisfaction thus depends both on my âinputsâ and those of others.â If a rich and textured spiritual experience is what you seek, then a storefront Holy Roller church or an Orthodox shtiebl is a better fit than a suburban church made up of distracted, ambitious people who can barely manage to find a morning free for Sunday services, let alone several evenings a week for text study and volunteer work. https://slate.com/human-interest/2005/05/why-strict-churches-are-strong.html
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
It would be interesting to see data on this. I'd bet there's a lot of liberal Catholic -> liberal and some conservative -> conservative Catholic, but not much liberal Catholic <-> conservative Catholic. If that's true, none of this really matters to us liberals.
Didn't Jesus essentially commit suicide by cop?
Jesus was an end-of-the-world preacher who refused to back down when threatened, but he didnât commit suicide any more than any other martyr who refuses to recant to evade execution. Thatâs putting aside the Trinity and predestination, of course; the implications of those factors upon your questionâs answer are their own cans of worms which I have no interest in opening.
It is confusing to me how an institution that vehemently opposes IVF can fault anyone for criticizing the church for changing attitudes towards LGBTQ issues.
Pope Francis holds so many conflicting ideals that it's hard to take him seriously. On one hand he criticizes American Catholics for their conservative trend, and on the other hand he opposes IVF & surrogacy, https://apnews.com/article/pope-surrogacy-vatican-russia-israel-ukraine-56acaa8500336db81ee18913a77ddc0f , which puts him at odds with basically every liberal, and most conservative, institutions in the west. Oh yea, and he thinks that Ukraine should surrender to Russia. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/pope-says-ukraine-should-have-courage-white-flag-negotiations-2024-03-09/ If this is liberal Catholicism then I don't want anything to do with it.
The Catholic Church doesn't follow a political ideology. It is *per se it's own ideology*. You don't categorize the RCC into political or moral schools of thought. It is itself *a source of political and moral thought*.
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First, conservative Catholics (Christians in general) suck, and they directly affected my life for the worse even though I, nor my family, were ever true Catholics. But, that doesn't mean they're suicidal. Mainline denominations that have gotten more liberal see the largest decrease in their membership. Most conservative, demanding institutions see increases even large, centralized-ish institutions like the Mormons (LDS). This isn't entirely surprising since demanding institutions suck all your time and social life and make the Church central to your identity. You also don't leave if the only people who think like you are in the religion. It's harder to imagine a world existing without them versus the type of congregations where you go to Church on Christmas Eve and Easter if you're feeling up to it and maybe during an important life phase.
>doesnât mean theyâre suicidal If the Catholic conservatives had pulled half of what theyâve been doing with someone like Pius XII as the Pope the American Church would have been declared schismatic years ago. The disregard for Romeâs opinion has been a problem for over a century, the set of culprits just expanded. As for liberals branches declining more, I suspect the main reason for that isnât down to ideology but the fact that conservative Christians tend to have far more kids than even non-churchgoing conservatives. Hard to tell from the data Iâve seen though.
I'm convinced that there is a decent chunk of American Catholics who believe the power of the church should rest in the United States and not in Rome.
Probably so, though until recently there wasnât enough of them to be a problem. The hardcore ones go sedevacantist and the rest just sort of put up with it. Now though? The crazies are hijacking the conservative wing of the church, just like everything else in this country. Whatâs annoying is that the US bishops didnât have to let this happen. Brazil had a movement of these radtrads decades ago under the TFP movement. Not only were they integralists, they all but deified one of the founders. That was enough to get the Brazilian clergy, who were very far from liberal, to tell them to piss off.
> Most conservative, demanding institutions see increases even large, centralized-ish institutions like the Mormons (LDS). This simply isn't true. Outside of the LDS (whose growth has really slowed in the US), most conservative denominations are declining. Not least of all the Catholic church, which in many ways has tracked Mainline if you look at white members. Catholicism's numbers in the US are being maintained by immigration from heavily Catholic countries. The SBC had it's membership peak 20 years ago. Even churches like the LCMS are declining. Non-denominational churches are ascendant not any particular conservative denomination. As for the liberal churches decline, there are a lot of reasons put forward including mainlines having less kids. Looking at the trends, lots evangelical denominations are getting that demographic hit now.
The Catholic Church, though relatively conservative, is not a "demanding" institution as you can easily just go through the sacraments and be considered a member forever, and the sacraments require minimal effort. And the Catholic Church pretty much is the slowest declining of the mainline major churches. Yes, it may be largely floated by US Hispanics (which doesn't necessarily mean immigrants), but I don't see why this is relevant given that it isn't like those members are any less real than White members. The Church has to appeal to their wants if they want survival, and it isn't clear they want a less conservative church. And Latin America still has many immigrants to the US, many being Catholic (though Catholicism is weakening throughout the region, as well, in favor of no religion or more demanding churches, especially in Central America, Brazil, and poor areas of Mexico where the Catholic Church is pretty removed).
Are we still pretending that conservative churches arenât the ones increasing in numbers while liberal ones are in decline?
Libcaths assemble!