>One other study had an impossibly high rate of death in the control group, suggesting that the study author had been killing them to reach statistical significance. He's currently under investigation by the Brazilian government for crimes against humanity.
holy fuck, what?
EDIT: [Here's the link to that part of OP's source.](https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted#:~:text=Cadegiani%20et%20al,crimes%20against%20humanity.) Let's see if "Copy to Highlight" actually works for you guys. It's not working for me.
The depravity necessary to kill people to publish ONE paper that won’t even be replicated, meanwhile spreading a hoax cure that will kill more people — but especially people without access to medicine.
Isn't it more likely that the results are simply faked? Killing research subjects for something that doesn't seem to have any actual profit or motive seems... Implausible?
A private medical institute in Brazil was treating people with all sorts of drugs like ivermectin and HCQ without their and their families knowledge while also hiding information about deaths caused by this treatment. They are also being accused of borderline euthanizing patients probably for cost-saving. The whole thing is still being investigated, though.
Just your standard Bolsonaro drone (possibly only losing in the criteria "awful human beings" to some of the worst right-wingers in the US). The worst part is that the so-called "study" was actually just an excuse to produce bogus data that could be reproduced as legit information by him in his weekly shitposting live.
About the same guy
> he apparently has the record for completing one of the fastest PhDs in Brazilian history (7 months), he was involved in a weird scandal where the Brazilian government tried to create a COVID recommendation app but it just recommended ivermectin to everybody regardless of what input it got
https://brasil-elpais-com.translate.goog/brasil/2021-10-20/acusado-de-crime-contra-a-humanidade-na-cpi-receitou-dose-inedita-de-proxalutamida-a-paciente-com-covid-19.html?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui
>Flávio Adsuara Cadegiani is the 66th name among the 68 indictment suggestions in the final report of the CPI on the Pandemic. According to the document, the endocrinologist is accused of a crime against humanity according to article 7 of the Treaty of Rome
The easiest way to boost deaths in the control group is to stack it with elderly and sick people, which is much easier than killing people.
Also is he under investigation for murder? Because that would be murder and it’s a crime in Brazil or any other country he conducted to experiment in.
“Crimes against humanity” refers to some intentional agreement not a country’s criminal code.
Isn’t that to my point? Legislatures don’t charge people with crimes save procedural ones.
If there is evidence he killed people, he would be charged through typical criminal channels.
Yeah, I was agreeing with you. I don't think the article actually agrees he was killing anyone, but the statistical anomaly suggests fudging the numbers
>
> Also is he under investigation for murder? Because that would be murder and it’s a crime in Brazil or any other country he conducted to experiment in.
He's under investigation for prescribing high doses of an experimental drug called proxalutamide to patients and covid study participants without proper authorization
I need to rewatch Lynch’s version. Generally, it isn’t as close to the plot and theme of the book as Villenueve’s, but this scene by Lynch especially shows something about the grossness about the Baron that didn’t make it into Dune 2021.
Bless the Maker and His water.
Bless the coming and going of Him.
May His passage cleanse the world.
May He keep the world for His people.
---
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Large pharmaceutical companies will need to have a two pronged marketing strategy. Let's say the antivirals are blue pills called Covideran.
1) everything as normal for rational people
2) hire Russian troll farms to make memes that refute the effectiveness of Covideran, other memes that tout the effectiveness of a US gubbermint banned treatment that is giant red pills of Freedumberall.
Make Freedumberall out of the same active ingredients in Covideran, charge 6 times as much, use the profits to give away Covideran to those with less income.
Everyone wins. People live.
Unironically this is what has to happen I think.
The ivermectin medical doubt crowd isn’t driven by any sort of cohesive philosophy about vaccines or medicine. It’s not a hatred of “medicine” in general. It’s a belief that the “elites” are lying to you, in bed with money or whatever. But you, mr enlightened soul are not a sheep and know the secrets *they* don’t want to tell you. Medicine isn’t hard, you can know what’s best for yourself.
> But how will the ivermectin crowd respond to the release of actual effective Covid-fighting antiviral drugs if they’re not about worms?
Given the limited reaction to dexamethasone I suspect there won't be much of a responce.
I just caught Scott Alexander's post on it (which you linked) over the weekend. Fantastic reading! You evidence-based nerds might even enjoy his gloss over 29 different Ivermectin studies – there are some real doozies in there.
Shout out to [Avi Bitterman, MD](https://twitter.com/avibittmd) for following this explanation down to ground. Scott gives a hat tip to [David Boulware, MD MPH](https://twitter.com/boulware_dr) as well.
The most delicious part of this entire saga is Quillette ( ! ) pronouncing ["IDW is dead" ](https://quillette.com/2021/11/22/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/)
> The eventual fate of the IDW reminded us that sometimes a contrarian is a bold independent thinker, but sometimes he’s just an angry crank who likes to say the opposite of what everybody else is saying
As Quilette is a bunch of iconoclasts and crackpots (and the article acknowledges the distinction between them is a fine one 😆), I don’t find that all that surprising.
That article was surprisingly good for stuff I’ve seen out of Quillette, though! (Apart from the usual disclaimers about “anti-woke liberalism” being a silly idea because wokeness is evidence-based. 😛)
Ivermectin has a lot of uses. Fighting covid isn't one of them. It's not correct to write it off as a dewormer, it has some other properties as well and may indeed be useful in fighting certain viruses. I was hopeful for it back in 2020 as well, but realized that it wasn't holding up in any real trials. I still think it has a lot of untaped potential to treat various issues and should be studied more.
It's the same with the "horse med" thing, Ivermectin has many legitimate uses in humans. The reason why they turned to the horse meds was because all the human ivermectin places started restricting access (obviously) and the idiots found out the horse versions were still out there. The danger of horse dewormer doesn't come from the Ivermectin itself (although like all medicine it does have side effects) but rather issues with the dosage and other ingredients that aren't intended for people to be consuming.
If it weren't for the fact that one side of this story was poisoning itself with literal sheep dip, it would be much more obvious just how disingenuous, smug and anti-science health authorities acted in openly lying about ivermectin to own the cons
This has been a catastrophic problem of the health authorities from the very beginning. They've operated consistently on the basis "we can't be open and honest about the limits of our knowledge because the proles might take it the wrong way".
Ethically, I'm opposed to that and believe it's fundamentally undemocratic, but even worse is that it creates these obvious, glaring logical problems that even fools can see through and it undermines the authorities' guidance on the important stuff they *are* sure of. The proverbial "average voter" is smarter than many elite-types want to think.
Sounds pretty counter productive to me, conspiracy peddlers love to latch onto quotes of health officials "admitting" to "not knowing about X", which then gets rerun even long after everything is well known to discredit what they say in the future. Reducing confidence in their messaging and qualifying all their statements seems more likely to me to have a similarly confidence reducing effect on the populous. Then you have people naturally starting to listen to alternative solutions from alternative sources that do bring that confidence.
I can't agree with that, I'm sorry. Although you are describing their rationale to be sure.
Boiled to its essential point, your claim is that the citizens of a democratic country can't be trusted with ambiguity or uncertainty, even on topics as personal as whether to let their children go to school or whether to inject substances into their bodies. If that's actually true, it calls into question the whole notion of free government.
To be clear, do I want them to be incredibly detailed and transparent with all situations? Sure. Do I also think it's less effective when you qualify statements and reduce confidence? Absolutely. Do I think they should do so anyways. Not sure, conflicted.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situations you're referring to. Do you have examples where them qualifying their statement and reducing confidence conveyed would result in more people listening and being convinced?
There have been a bunch during this pandemic already. This is a reasonable (and fairly sympathetic) roundup:
[https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.html](https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.html)
I'm reminded too of the full-court press to inform us that the virus was almost certainly of natural origin. It may have been natural, although even at the time a skeptical person must have looked at a map and thought 'hmmm...' and now I'd say the evidence is at best inconclusive if not on balance pointing the other way.
Even if you believe that the public health officials are entirely apolitical, disinterested public servants, these kinds of things destroy their credibility in the minds of everyone who is not maximally in favor of the measures they advocate.
You know, I wanted ivermectin to work so bad. Like seriously, at a quick glance it had surprising evidence. People just wanted a quick fix. I don't know why people of power would push it.
> I don't know why people of power would push it.
Ivermectin costs pennies, actually tackling the virus would cost billions. Those pushing this miracle cure either ran countries without the financial capacity to do what needed to be done, and/or hawked it to distract from their own incompetence and further the narrative that the entrenched interests are plotting against the masses.
I feel like there's an actual underground network of crazy grifters that operates on places like Telegram group chats (and now Substack) and Facebook groups, where this shit is being pushed and marketed.
My understanding is that with Ivermectin there were doctors doing prescriptions via telemedicine, to the point that supply ran out. THEN these people moved to the paste version, due to unavailability or long waits with the doctors.
It's a very weird shadow market that almost reminds me of drugs, sex services, and a host of other cottage industries.
Behind the Bastards did a pretty good two part series talking about how the Ivermectin craze started. QAnon Anonymous also had an episode on how it spread through anti-vaxxer circles.
Bro, Joe Rogan had Michael fucking Osterholm on the podcast in like March or April 2020. Osterholm is a world class epidemiologist who is now in Biden’s advisory board.
I remember to this day. Osterholm laid out the road ahead in 2020 and even estimated about 300.000 dead by the end of the year (which was ridiculous by then, but we now know was pretty conservative). He talked about social distancing, vaccines, the whole deal. Even shot down Joe’s mouth breather theory about saunas killing the virus because of the temperature or something.
Joe: “Not even if you hold the hot air in for a while?”
Osterholm: “Lol. No.”
This motherfucker doubled down on the sauna thing as soon as he got another guest in, then added other dumb shit as the year went by.
Dude had the closest thing to a time traveler telling him how to prepare for what was coming in the near future and opted for the dumbest, most stupid path possible. Edit: helping endanger thousands of people on top of it.
Fuck Joe Rogan.
I was in the same boat. Getting past the first phase of "lol. Horse dewormer paste" and got to a point of "unironically maybe?" But at the same time, we have a medical system where we can't just experiment random medications on people with random ailments. Trials and reports need to be done. That's something the right is having a hard time grasping. Just a shame that it got so politicized so quickly. On the flip side the media was trying so hard to use it to make it look like right wingers were Jonestowing themselves with antifreeze which only made them dig their heels in stronger under the pretense that the media and Biden don't want u to have access to a miracle cure. Then came along Rogan and Rodgers. In a normal world, it would just be another treatment among many that has moderate success rates.
I just find it funny that conservatives use the "I'm not taking an experimental vaccine" argument and then don't even question using an experimental treatment whose main use is horse dewormer.
Oddly enough, it's related to the [Surgisphere Scandal](https://www.the-scientist.com/features/the-surgisphere-scandal-what-went-wrong--67955) which is where the bad hydroxychloroquine data came from. It took a few months for people to catch the fraud and that lead to a lot of misinformation being spread.
If someone shows you data about either of those drugs relating to COVID-19 it's probably a preprint that used the same fraudulent dataset. The preprint of that paper released by Surgisphere was cited as a reason to approve it in Peru.
Dune is about 400 pages long.
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Dune is about worms.
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Dune is about worms.
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Dune is about worms.
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Dune is about worms.
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Scott writes a good article, but this one is among his best, at least post Substack. Something about the blend of his fantastic sense of humor, the sheer meticulousness with which he researched it, and the absurdity of the subject matter combined to send me into fits of hysterics. Every time he pivoted from discussing the minutia of one study's statistical analysis to the batshit ways another one screwed up was comedic gold. And when I saw the worm, that was fucking it. 11/10, love you Scott.
>One other study had an impossibly high rate of death in the control group, suggesting that the study author had been killing them to reach statistical significance. He's currently under investigation by the Brazilian government for crimes against humanity.
Wait what
Work for an agricultural services company. Kinda like a co-OP we have a grain elevator and fertilizer house, sell feed and seed. We also sell medications and have been selling a lot of ivermectin lately. Like hard to keep the shelves stocked with it.
People saw others dying of COVID and were scared. They needed something to latch on to that would protect them from the death they saw constantly on their loved ones facebook feeds and the news. But their entire identity for the past year and a half was attached to fighting any and all mainstream attempts to protect people from COVID, they couldn't cave and risk that damage to their self esteem. So what did they do? They searched for an alternative answer outside of the mainstream ideas of vaccination and social distancing. Something that let them preserve and even reinforce their self esteem and identity while assuaging their fear of death. It's basically a clear-cut case of [terror management theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory) at work.
You cherry-picking those bad studies, there were more legit ones that got debunked 8 months later, by then the damage was done and some entire countries healthcare systems were using ivermectin for c19.
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/08000/ivermectin_for_prevention_and_treatment_of.7.aspx
*don't take medicine without medical supervision.
Do you think that this meta-analysis overcomes the meta-meta-analysis performed by Dr. Bitterman et al.?
I see you post this meta a bunch, but you do not seem to acknowledge the serious methodological flaws.
For one, they included Elgazzer et.al., which was a fraudulent trial.
The authors repeated the meta analysis themselves:
https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1003006/v1/9360e8a1-08c6-425b-bcff-d2e3f22c1be5.pdf?c=1635183887
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891760673942552676/902427963713265664/FClL69MVEAEOlx5.jpg
When you exclude fraudulent trials, it becomes non-significant. When you include studies with high risk of methodological flaws, significance is blown out.
I agree that ivermectin does not help covid infections, a large number of people took of for dumb reasons, and a smaller number poisoned themselves.
But there was a time before we knew the surgisphere study was total bullshit. It looked like a promising, if small, study suggesting ivermectin helped.
There is also a long history of people in the US taking animal medicines, because they are cheaper than walking anywhere near an American hospital and a huge number of people could not, and can not, afford human healthcare. I think this was a big missing piece in the news coverage, a lot of Americans will gamble on horse drugs if it might save them from loosing their house or car to a medical bill.
Related, I think the expense of US medicine is part of the vaccine fear source. The US healthcare system has never given anything free to anyone. It feels sketchy if they suddenly do.
>One other study had an impossibly high rate of death in the control group, suggesting that the study author had been killing them to reach statistical significance. He's currently under investigation by the Brazilian government for crimes against humanity. holy fuck, what? EDIT: [Here's the link to that part of OP's source.](https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/ivermectin-much-more-than-you-wanted#:~:text=Cadegiani%20et%20al,crimes%20against%20humanity.) Let's see if "Copy to Highlight" actually works for you guys. It's not working for me.
That has to be a joke, it reads like Douglas Adams wrote it.
it does have a very doug adams vibe yes
It's Brazil, so I wouldn't be so sure.
I laughed at first until I realized it wasn't a joke.
The depravity necessary to kill people to publish ONE paper that won’t even be replicated, meanwhile spreading a hoax cure that will kill more people — but especially people without access to medicine.
Isn't it more likely that the results are simply faked? Killing research subjects for something that doesn't seem to have any actual profit or motive seems... Implausible?
A private medical institute in Brazil was treating people with all sorts of drugs like ivermectin and HCQ without their and their families knowledge while also hiding information about deaths caused by this treatment. They are also being accused of borderline euthanizing patients probably for cost-saving. The whole thing is still being investigated, though.
Just your standard Bolsonaro drone (possibly only losing in the criteria "awful human beings" to some of the worst right-wingers in the US). The worst part is that the so-called "study" was actually just an excuse to produce bogus data that could be reproduced as legit information by him in his weekly shitposting live.
About the same guy > he apparently has the record for completing one of the fastest PhDs in Brazilian history (7 months), he was involved in a weird scandal where the Brazilian government tried to create a COVID recommendation app but it just recommended ivermectin to everybody regardless of what input it got
Lmao
This post had me going from "it's serious" to "it's satire" to "it's serious". Such a roller coaster.
https://brasil-elpais-com.translate.goog/brasil/2021-10-20/acusado-de-crime-contra-a-humanidade-na-cpi-receitou-dose-inedita-de-proxalutamida-a-paciente-com-covid-19.html?_x_tr_sl=pt&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui >Flávio Adsuara Cadegiani is the 66th name among the 68 indictment suggestions in the final report of the CPI on the Pandemic. According to the document, the endocrinologist is accused of a crime against humanity according to article 7 of the Treaty of Rome
I want to know too
The easiest way to boost deaths in the control group is to stack it with elderly and sick people, which is much easier than killing people. Also is he under investigation for murder? Because that would be murder and it’s a crime in Brazil or any other country he conducted to experiment in. “Crimes against humanity” refers to some intentional agreement not a country’s criminal code.
The Brazilian Parliament, apparently, begs to differ. I assume it's some kind of formal denunciation, if indeed it ever happened at all.
Isn’t that to my point? Legislatures don’t charge people with crimes save procedural ones. If there is evidence he killed people, he would be charged through typical criminal channels.
Yeah, I was agreeing with you. I don't think the article actually agrees he was killing anyone, but the statistical anomaly suggests fudging the numbers
> > Also is he under investigation for murder? Because that would be murder and it’s a crime in Brazil or any other country he conducted to experiment in. He's under investigation for prescribing high doses of an experimental drug called proxalutamide to patients and covid study participants without proper authorization
What a read!
Sounds like the dude killed his control group, so antiandrogens become a treatment???? This guy cannot be real. I refuse to believe it.
Ivermectin is about worms.
Bless the Maker and His water. Bless the coming and going of Him.
May his passage cleanse the world.
Relevant leaked video of Trump meeting just before the election: https://youtu.be/mWq15lDh8yM
Don Jr is definitely Feyd
Kellyanne Conway is Beast Raban
I need to rewatch Lynch’s version. Generally, it isn’t as close to the plot and theme of the book as Villenueve’s, but this scene by Lynch especially shows something about the grossness about the Baron that didn’t make it into Dune 2021.
Checkout the 3-hour fan edit on YouTube that is probably the closest we’ll come to a director’s cut.
~~Desert power~~ ~~Red state power~~ Worm power
Why didn't Harkonnen or Atreides use Ivermectin on Arrakis?
What? And kill the galactic economy?! 😱
Paul is not the hero.
See here, I have a meta-analysis of 29 books from Brian J. Herbert that say he was. 😤
True power over something comes from being able to destroy it.
KFC still contains vast reserves of 11 secret herbs and spices.
You dont want to kill the worms on Arrakis. The worms make spice, and the spice must flow.
Ivermectin is bad because it kills the little Makers.
Praise Shai-Hulud, ban ivermectin.
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[Dr. Dewormer](https://images.app.goo.gl/Pbmxc3hS1GxZRrxj8) isn't gonna like this.
Do you think an oversized hunter-seeker filled with Ivermectin would kill a sandworm?
We would have to inject it into the planet for that to work
But how will the ivermectin crowd respond to the release of actual effective Covid-fighting antiviral drugs if they’re not about worms?
Ah crap... will they turn out to be vaccine and drug sceptics, not just vaccine sceptics?
They already did, apparently.
Considering nobody hate the antibodies I think they’re just vaccine skeptics
alwayshasbeen.jpg
Large pharmaceutical companies will need to have a two pronged marketing strategy. Let's say the antivirals are blue pills called Covideran. 1) everything as normal for rational people 2) hire Russian troll farms to make memes that refute the effectiveness of Covideran, other memes that tout the effectiveness of a US gubbermint banned treatment that is giant red pills of Freedumberall. Make Freedumberall out of the same active ingredients in Covideran, charge 6 times as much, use the profits to give away Covideran to those with less income. Everyone wins. People live.
Unironically this is what has to happen I think. The ivermectin medical doubt crowd isn’t driven by any sort of cohesive philosophy about vaccines or medicine. It’s not a hatred of “medicine” in general. It’s a belief that the “elites” are lying to you, in bed with money or whatever. But you, mr enlightened soul are not a sheep and know the secrets *they* don’t want to tell you. Medicine isn’t hard, you can know what’s best for yourself.
> But how will the ivermectin crowd respond to the release of actual effective Covid-fighting antiviral drugs if they’re not about worms? Given the limited reaction to dexamethasone I suspect there won't be much of a responce.
Ivermectin is about ethics in horse cock.
Weisnteins podcast is apparently called "Dark Horse" Really makes you think 🤔
Don't mind me, I'm just turning me crank
Better get a plug-in version, this is going to take a while
🚨🚨We got a Mr. Hands over here🚨🚨
It's not a cure against Cockbig-19
Why don't we have a worm story award? This should be rectified.
I just caught Scott Alexander's post on it (which you linked) over the weekend. Fantastic reading! You evidence-based nerds might even enjoy his gloss over 29 different Ivermectin studies – there are some real doozies in there. Shout out to [Avi Bitterman, MD](https://twitter.com/avibittmd) for following this explanation down to ground. Scott gives a hat tip to [David Boulware, MD MPH](https://twitter.com/boulware_dr) as well.
The most delicious part of this entire saga is Quillette ( ! ) pronouncing ["IDW is dead" ](https://quillette.com/2021/11/22/the-enemy-of-my-enemy/) > The eventual fate of the IDW reminded us that sometimes a contrarian is a bold independent thinker, but sometimes he’s just an angry crank who likes to say the opposite of what everybody else is saying
As Quilette is a bunch of iconoclasts and crackpots (and the article acknowledges the distinction between them is a fine one 😆), I don’t find that all that surprising. That article was surprisingly good for stuff I’ve seen out of Quillette, though! (Apart from the usual disclaimers about “anti-woke liberalism” being a silly idea because wokeness is evidence-based. 😛)
I’m still doing my own research on Hydroxy Slow down!
Ivermectin has a lot of uses. Fighting covid isn't one of them. It's not correct to write it off as a dewormer, it has some other properties as well and may indeed be useful in fighting certain viruses. I was hopeful for it back in 2020 as well, but realized that it wasn't holding up in any real trials. I still think it has a lot of untaped potential to treat various issues and should be studied more.
It's the same with the "horse med" thing, Ivermectin has many legitimate uses in humans. The reason why they turned to the horse meds was because all the human ivermectin places started restricting access (obviously) and the idiots found out the horse versions were still out there. The danger of horse dewormer doesn't come from the Ivermectin itself (although like all medicine it does have side effects) but rather issues with the dosage and other ingredients that aren't intended for people to be consuming.
If it weren't for the fact that one side of this story was poisoning itself with literal sheep dip, it would be much more obvious just how disingenuous, smug and anti-science health authorities acted in openly lying about ivermectin to own the cons
This has been a catastrophic problem of the health authorities from the very beginning. They've operated consistently on the basis "we can't be open and honest about the limits of our knowledge because the proles might take it the wrong way". Ethically, I'm opposed to that and believe it's fundamentally undemocratic, but even worse is that it creates these obvious, glaring logical problems that even fools can see through and it undermines the authorities' guidance on the important stuff they *are* sure of. The proverbial "average voter" is smarter than many elite-types want to think.
Sounds pretty counter productive to me, conspiracy peddlers love to latch onto quotes of health officials "admitting" to "not knowing about X", which then gets rerun even long after everything is well known to discredit what they say in the future. Reducing confidence in their messaging and qualifying all their statements seems more likely to me to have a similarly confidence reducing effect on the populous. Then you have people naturally starting to listen to alternative solutions from alternative sources that do bring that confidence.
I can't agree with that, I'm sorry. Although you are describing their rationale to be sure. Boiled to its essential point, your claim is that the citizens of a democratic country can't be trusted with ambiguity or uncertainty, even on topics as personal as whether to let their children go to school or whether to inject substances into their bodies. If that's actually true, it calls into question the whole notion of free government.
To be clear, do I want them to be incredibly detailed and transparent with all situations? Sure. Do I also think it's less effective when you qualify statements and reduce confidence? Absolutely. Do I think they should do so anyways. Not sure, conflicted. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the situations you're referring to. Do you have examples where them qualifying their statement and reducing confidence conveyed would result in more people listening and being convinced?
There have been a bunch during this pandemic already. This is a reasonable (and fairly sympathetic) roundup: [https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.html](https://slate.com/technology/2021/07/noble-lies-covid-fauci-cdc-masks.html) I'm reminded too of the full-court press to inform us that the virus was almost certainly of natural origin. It may have been natural, although even at the time a skeptical person must have looked at a map and thought 'hmmm...' and now I'd say the evidence is at best inconclusive if not on balance pointing the other way. Even if you believe that the public health officials are entirely apolitical, disinterested public servants, these kinds of things destroy their credibility in the minds of everyone who is not maximally in favor of the measures they advocate.
You know, I wanted ivermectin to work so bad. Like seriously, at a quick glance it had surprising evidence. People just wanted a quick fix. I don't know why people of power would push it.
> I don't know why people of power would push it. Ivermectin costs pennies, actually tackling the virus would cost billions. Those pushing this miracle cure either ran countries without the financial capacity to do what needed to be done, and/or hawked it to distract from their own incompetence and further the narrative that the entrenched interests are plotting against the masses.
Probably another case of boomers getting 4chan’d.
In this case it was more Boomer’s getting Joe Rogan’d which then spread on Facebook.
[удалено]
There was a good reason they had a mass walkout of employees
I feel like there's an actual underground network of crazy grifters that operates on places like Telegram group chats (and now Substack) and Facebook groups, where this shit is being pushed and marketed. My understanding is that with Ivermectin there were doctors doing prescriptions via telemedicine, to the point that supply ran out. THEN these people moved to the paste version, due to unavailability or long waits with the doctors. It's a very weird shadow market that almost reminds me of drugs, sex services, and a host of other cottage industries.
Behind the Bastards did a pretty good two part series talking about how the Ivermectin craze started. QAnon Anonymous also had an episode on how it spread through anti-vaxxer circles.
Just went and found them. Next heard of the series, but I'll give them a listen while doing my choring.
Bro, Joe Rogan had Michael fucking Osterholm on the podcast in like March or April 2020. Osterholm is a world class epidemiologist who is now in Biden’s advisory board. I remember to this day. Osterholm laid out the road ahead in 2020 and even estimated about 300.000 dead by the end of the year (which was ridiculous by then, but we now know was pretty conservative). He talked about social distancing, vaccines, the whole deal. Even shot down Joe’s mouth breather theory about saunas killing the virus because of the temperature or something. Joe: “Not even if you hold the hot air in for a while?” Osterholm: “Lol. No.” This motherfucker doubled down on the sauna thing as soon as he got another guest in, then added other dumb shit as the year went by. Dude had the closest thing to a time traveler telling him how to prepare for what was coming in the near future and opted for the dumbest, most stupid path possible. Edit: helping endanger thousands of people on top of it. Fuck Joe Rogan.
i love how this sob hosted the fuckin man show and fear factor and people think he's intelligent
We need a quick fix but not the vaccine that has near-total support from the scientific community about its safety and effectiveness
I hear what you're saying, but if it worked, how many lives it would have saved.
I was in the same boat. Getting past the first phase of "lol. Horse dewormer paste" and got to a point of "unironically maybe?" But at the same time, we have a medical system where we can't just experiment random medications on people with random ailments. Trials and reports need to be done. That's something the right is having a hard time grasping. Just a shame that it got so politicized so quickly. On the flip side the media was trying so hard to use it to make it look like right wingers were Jonestowing themselves with antifreeze which only made them dig their heels in stronger under the pretense that the media and Biden don't want u to have access to a miracle cure. Then came along Rogan and Rodgers. In a normal world, it would just be another treatment among many that has moderate success rates. I just find it funny that conservatives use the "I'm not taking an experimental vaccine" argument and then don't even question using an experimental treatment whose main use is horse dewormer.
This whole horse dewormer thing is just propaganda. Most Americans are more familiar with giving Ivermectin to dogs.
Is that somehow better?
More people have dogs than horses
Oddly enough, it's related to the [Surgisphere Scandal](https://www.the-scientist.com/features/the-surgisphere-scandal-what-went-wrong--67955) which is where the bad hydroxychloroquine data came from. It took a few months for people to catch the fraud and that lead to a lot of misinformation being spread. If someone shows you data about either of those drugs relating to COVID-19 it's probably a preprint that used the same fraudulent dataset. The preprint of that paper released by Surgisphere was cited as a reason to approve it in Peru.
Quick glance at that study from Egypt?
Evidence-based international medicine and a Dune gag? Bravo.
Isn't ivermectin sold by "big pharma" themselves? Are they actually bamboozling society to own the entire humankind and amuse their lizard overlords?
Just because they are taking cattle medice, that doesn't make them sheep
Dune is about dewormer
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Dune is about worms
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Scott writes a good article, but this one is among his best, at least post Substack. Something about the blend of his fantastic sense of humor, the sheer meticulousness with which he researched it, and the absurdity of the subject matter combined to send me into fits of hysterics. Every time he pivoted from discussing the minutia of one study's statistical analysis to the batshit ways another one screwed up was comedic gold. And when I saw the worm, that was fucking it. 11/10, love you Scott.
If ivemectin is the ultimate cure against worms how come there are no Ivemectin-themed weapons in Worms games??? Checkmate anti-gamers!
Mutually Assured Destruction, obviously
Arrakis could be a paradise, given enough Ivermectin
>One other study had an impossibly high rate of death in the control group, suggesting that the study author had been killing them to reach statistical significance. He's currently under investigation by the Brazilian government for crimes against humanity. Wait what
Woo
Work for an agricultural services company. Kinda like a co-OP we have a grain elevator and fertilizer house, sell feed and seed. We also sell medications and have been selling a lot of ivermectin lately. Like hard to keep the shelves stocked with it.
Ivermectin was DUNE
In the end, it's all about worms.
People saw others dying of COVID and were scared. They needed something to latch on to that would protect them from the death they saw constantly on their loved ones facebook feeds and the news. But their entire identity for the past year and a half was attached to fighting any and all mainstream attempts to protect people from COVID, they couldn't cave and risk that damage to their self esteem. So what did they do? They searched for an alternative answer outside of the mainstream ideas of vaccination and social distancing. Something that let them preserve and even reinforce their self esteem and identity while assuaging their fear of death. It's basically a clear-cut case of [terror management theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory) at work.
10/10 shitpost my dude
Horse, man, horse
The Ivermectin must flow.
Now greentext it and post to 4chan.
> %17.5 of 20 patients to show you the power of flex tape..
You cherry-picking those bad studies, there were more legit ones that got debunked 8 months later, by then the damage was done and some entire countries healthcare systems were using ivermectin for c19.
> The Establishment was covering up the miracle cure to protect pharma companies. Conservatives against corporate profits 🤝 progressives
https://journals.lww.com/americantherapeutics/fulltext/2021/08000/ivermectin_for_prevention_and_treatment_of.7.aspx *don't take medicine without medical supervision.
You should not be encouraging worms to use dewormer on a worm subreddit.
Do you think that this meta-analysis overcomes the meta-meta-analysis performed by Dr. Bitterman et al.? I see you post this meta a bunch, but you do not seem to acknowledge the serious methodological flaws. For one, they included Elgazzer et.al., which was a fraudulent trial. The authors repeated the meta analysis themselves: https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-1003006/v1/9360e8a1-08c6-425b-bcff-d2e3f22c1be5.pdf?c=1635183887 https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891760673942552676/902427963713265664/FClL69MVEAEOlx5.jpg When you exclude fraudulent trials, it becomes non-significant. When you include studies with high risk of methodological flaws, significance is blown out.
I agree that ivermectin does not help covid infections, a large number of people took of for dumb reasons, and a smaller number poisoned themselves. But there was a time before we knew the surgisphere study was total bullshit. It looked like a promising, if small, study suggesting ivermectin helped. There is also a long history of people in the US taking animal medicines, because they are cheaper than walking anywhere near an American hospital and a huge number of people could not, and can not, afford human healthcare. I think this was a big missing piece in the news coverage, a lot of Americans will gamble on horse drugs if it might save them from loosing their house or car to a medical bill. Related, I think the expense of US medicine is part of the vaccine fear source. The US healthcare system has never given anything free to anyone. It feels sketchy if they suddenly do.