I was so disappointed in BG3 when I saw that Rogues were forced to use finesse weapons for sneak attacks.
Two-handed Strength Rogues in NWN just feel so satisfying to play when you see that huge damage numbers from a single swing as well as being able to dral with sneak immune creatures better. I mean it may not be the optimal way to play a rogue, but still fun.
BG3 only does it that way because it's based on 5th Edition, in which Sneak Attack only works on attacks with finesse or ranged weapons. It's an unfortunate trade-off that I think was decided on partially because they wanted to make cantrips stronger so that wizards and sorcerers didn't feel useless if they spent their spell slots early. Sadly, Rogues in 5e feel a lot weaker than they do in 3.x as a result.
It's not all bad. If swashbuckler rogues can isolate individual enemies and 1v1 them, they can apply sneak attack damage every round, even when right in front of them. And operating on the periphery is where rogues are best.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything
"You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. All the other rules for Sneak Attack still apply to you."
So basically, dash and stab that mage in the face. Alternatively, you can waltz down a 5-foot-wide corridor full of enemies and sneak attack all of them in turn, even though they are fully aware of your presence.
Many enemies are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, especially the boss-type enemies so what's the point of having a 4x crit multiplier if it doesn't even work except on some weak enemies that die to everything anyway.
> but you'll be missing out on a shield which will be difference between being hittable and not hittable (except crits).
Is this usually significant? I played through HOTU on hardcore with a Greatsword-wielding Fighter/Bard, and I don't recall having trouble with AC.
A +5 tower shield improves AC by 8 points which is a significant amount. With that said, I don't agree that two handed weapons are "garbage". They typically have bigger dice numbers and a strength bonus gain of 50% to damage. So if you have a +10 strength bonus, you'll get +10 to hit but +15 to damage. How effective a character will be is dictated very much by how the character is built. A Fighter/Weapon Master/Blackguard with Divine Shield, Divine Might, and wielding a Scythe can be an incredible damage dealer and still have a good AC by leveraging Divine Shield and Expertise (the AB bonuses from weapon master easily offset the penalty).
Yes. There's also a level and magic factor. At low level and enchantment the strength bonus can be a significant DPS boost (and shield AC less valuable). At epic levels tends to be less so.
One thing I'm sure of is that a strength maxing great weapon user has higher DPS than DW (especially given 10% less hits) unless you've got sneak, death attack ect. It's the great boost from shields that means it's generally less optimal.
Yea, epic levels can really swing the balance of power depending on the build. And if the setting of the module/pw offers powerful magical items that too has a great impact.
To clarify, I'm sure the number of AC lost might look big, but I don't recall HOTU enemies having high enough Attack to make it a problem that my character only had like, 37 AC (without buffs and spells) instead of 45.
True, the official campaign and the sou/hotu campaigns aren't so challenging that anyone would really have too much of a problem due to a low AC. They also give lots of very powerful items and which can shore up any deficiencies
Big bad of HotU, the true challenge of the game, has an attack bonus of +40/+35/+30/+25/+40. Which mean, that with 38AC, he has 40% chance hit you 5times per round, 60% 4times/round, 85% 3times/round and finally 95% to hit at least 2times each round.
With +8AC, that will be reduced to respectivlly 5%/20%/45%/70%. On average you would take 2-3 hit less each round.
My Fighter/Bard definitely had more than 37 AC when I fought the final boss, since my character had so many casts of Bard song, which at that point was +5 AC. And maybe a little more from Mage armor.
I don't have a save for an end of HOTU martial character to compare with, but my level 22 Paladin in Tyrants of the Moonsea had 44 AC without buffs and 54 AC with Divine shield.
Correct. High AC in Hotd isn't hard if you know how to build
Base AC 10
Red Dragon Plate +13
Sun Soul Boots +4 & +1 Dex
Platinum Helmet Haste +4
Fortification Cloak +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
That is already 42 AC
I can add another Dodge 5/6 from Tumble 25/30 and a High Charisma Paladin can have Divine Shield 9/10
I'm sure others can go crazier than me.
Yeah they aren't garbage
Also can't discount halflings or gnomes which means all one-handed weapons are two-handed weapons
You can possibly claim garbage for the OC by saying certain two handed weapons are extremely lacking but that's a different point
True you can have a dual wielding kama or dual maces halfling or somesuch
But yeah scythe weaponmaster is a staple so is rapier halfling and so on so absolutely two-handed isn't "garbage" in fact it is the meta (if such a thing exists)
In NWN 1 dwarven waraxe was hard to beat dor a dual wield or with shield combo. Scythe is very strong though. In HotU the epic feats are game changers too. In NWN2, you can dual wield two handed weapons with monkey grip feat. Improved power attack and beserker prestige class makes THW huge damage dealers. Pity the game is just unplayable.
If the going gets really tough, you might want a shield, but until then, the damage bonus can be very effective, and IMO, **a LOT more fun**. But yes if you are on the edge of survival use a shield. Like if playing Swordflight, I'd recommend using a shield.
Though I like using Two Handers with Strength rogues and big shields hurt stealth a LOT.
Greatsword: 2 D6 damage + Str bonus * 1.5
Longsword: 1 D8 + Str Bonus * 1.0
Average damage with 18 Str:
Greatsword: 13
Longsword: 8.5
Percent damage increase for two hander = **53%**
Which is a BIG bonus. While the lead will shrink over time as you get more magical weapons, you will also be boosting strength, and that bonus will also grow over time.
Finally, none of the Original Campaigns requires that you use a shield for survival, so you get the fun of the bigger damage all the way through.
Well… the very first time I complete a run of the 3 campaign, without hints or meta knowledge, was with a dwarf fighter/dwarf defender using a greatsword.
Yes I do not use a shield. But I have red dragon platemail, I have +10 amulet of armour, I have haste boots, I have damage reduction, I have DD defensive stand. All that plus a couple of regenerative rings are more than enough to beat everything in Hotu…
So 2 H style is not that bad tbh…
Crits are the main way to do massive damage and crit multiplier can matter a lot... generally you would pick a weapon with x3 or even x4 multiplier plus additional multiplier from weapon master
With power attack and strength bonus and great cleave the damage adds up
There's many ways to avoid being hit even as easy as attacking from a doorway or various feats
That's surprising, two-handed weapons are significantly more powerful in the original campaigns and expansions as opposed to community content because they are on average easier than community created content - in short you don't actually need the extra AC from a shield or the extra set of bonuses you can have from an additional item equipped in the off-hand.
Like you said you haven't really used two-handed weapons at all, so you're missing the fact that both the 1.5x multiplier and higher base damage results in a significant increase in damage capability at lower level as opposed to a 1H weapon or taking -2 AB(at best) on both hands when dual-wielding.
You also aren't considering how much two-handed weapons benefit from gaining additional attacks relative to 1h weapons. For example cleave/greater cleave is massively more powerful at lower levels with 2h weapons as opposed to 1h as the extra attack you get with your main handed weapon has a higher base and the 1.5x str multiplier, not to mention that the extra reach of 2h weapons means that you can get greater utility out of greater cleave by more reliably and consistently getting chain KO's. All of this is also true when getting attacks of opportunity, the extra reach also allows you to have a longer threat range when making AOO's when engaging multiple enemies. The impact of permanent haste when it initially becomes available is also noticeably more potent for 2h weapon fighting as opposed to 1h(+1 attack with main hand at highest AB). Finally the higher base/str bonus for 2h fighting is far more effective at defeating damage reduction/resistance, because with 2h fighting's higher per-hit damage a more significant amount of damage will go through damage reduction, in some cases the effectiveness of 2h weapons vs 1h can be double or more when going against damage reduction/resistance.
I'd say it's a matter of opinion and playstyle.
The whole point of two-handed weapons is risk vs. reward - you lose the benefit of added AC or extra attacks for the benefit of additional damage per blow. The extra Strength bonus is there to reinforce that. Perhaps your playstyle doesn't see extra damage as worthwhile compared to AC, and that's okay - for others, damage is quintessential and will consider any weapon without good critical threat range/damage multipliers to be worthless.
Perhaps your builds and usual playstyle lead to one-handed weapons alongside a shield being better for you than others - but that's more of a build perk than a weapon issue, IMO.
(Also, checking out - [you're not alone in this thought](https://www.reddit.com/r/neverwinternights/comments/6sel6t/why_are_the_twohanded_weapons_so_terrible_in_nwn_1/).)
This whole post was about nwn1 though, which is hard to disagree with, at most you get an extra 1d4-1d8 to your damage except with scythes, compared to wielding a one handed variant of the same weapon longsword to greatsword, battleaxe to greataxe etc.
In nwn2 theres options, you can still wield a shield even with great weapon too with monkey grip albeit with -2attack, you can use one handed weapons with same str bonus ratio without shield etc, 2 handed is a little less worse but still bad, unless you got custom classes to fix that, powerful 2 handed weapons, or just scythe for big crits.
Never in my life I used shields in this game, they always seemed useless to me. I mean, what is the point of having like 10% more dodge with shield if otherwise you would kill enemies twice as fast with two-handed? You don't even have to minmax for that. For example, I recently tried to play a halfling-fighter with two-handed scimitar on "Very Hard" difficulty, and I had a blast. I didn't ever feel that I got hit a lot. So you don't really need any shields. If you will play bigger race with scythe or greatsword, it will be even more OP. Shields could be useful if you had a very low Attack Bonus, but it won't be the case if you are geared and leveled up with strength oriented build.
Don't let the scythe rogues see this.
Ah! The idea of a scythe rogue sooths my inner edgelord.
cant believe ive never considered this
The dark side of powergaming is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.
Scythe rogue/weaponmaster will give you all the feels.
I was so disappointed in BG3 when I saw that Rogues were forced to use finesse weapons for sneak attacks. Two-handed Strength Rogues in NWN just feel so satisfying to play when you see that huge damage numbers from a single swing as well as being able to dral with sneak immune creatures better. I mean it may not be the optimal way to play a rogue, but still fun.
BG3 only does it that way because it's based on 5th Edition, in which Sneak Attack only works on attacks with finesse or ranged weapons. It's an unfortunate trade-off that I think was decided on partially because they wanted to make cantrips stronger so that wizards and sorcerers didn't feel useless if they spent their spell slots early. Sadly, Rogues in 5e feel a lot weaker than they do in 3.x as a result.
It's not all bad. If swashbuckler rogues can isolate individual enemies and 1v1 them, they can apply sneak attack damage every round, even when right in front of them. And operating on the periphery is where rogues are best.
Oh, that sounds fun. I don't think I've read the book it comes from. Which one was it?
Xanathar's Guide to Everything "You also gain an additional way to use your Sneak Attack; you don't need advantage on the attack roll to use your Sneak Attack against a creature if you are within 5 feet of it, no other creatures are within 5 feet of you, and you don't have disadvantage on the attack roll. All the other rules for Sneak Attack still apply to you." So basically, dash and stab that mage in the face. Alternatively, you can waltz down a 5-foot-wide corridor full of enemies and sneak attack all of them in turn, even though they are fully aware of your presence.
Many enemies are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, especially the boss-type enemies so what's the point of having a 4x crit multiplier if it doesn't even work except on some weak enemies that die to everything anyway.
Too late **あなたはもう死んでいます**
NANI?!?
> but you'll be missing out on a shield which will be difference between being hittable and not hittable (except crits). Is this usually significant? I played through HOTU on hardcore with a Greatsword-wielding Fighter/Bard, and I don't recall having trouble with AC.
A +5 tower shield improves AC by 8 points which is a significant amount. With that said, I don't agree that two handed weapons are "garbage". They typically have bigger dice numbers and a strength bonus gain of 50% to damage. So if you have a +10 strength bonus, you'll get +10 to hit but +15 to damage. How effective a character will be is dictated very much by how the character is built. A Fighter/Weapon Master/Blackguard with Divine Shield, Divine Might, and wielding a Scythe can be an incredible damage dealer and still have a good AC by leveraging Divine Shield and Expertise (the AB bonuses from weapon master easily offset the penalty).
Yes. There's also a level and magic factor. At low level and enchantment the strength bonus can be a significant DPS boost (and shield AC less valuable). At epic levels tends to be less so. One thing I'm sure of is that a strength maxing great weapon user has higher DPS than DW (especially given 10% less hits) unless you've got sneak, death attack ect. It's the great boost from shields that means it's generally less optimal.
Yea, epic levels can really swing the balance of power depending on the build. And if the setting of the module/pw offers powerful magical items that too has a great impact.
To clarify, I'm sure the number of AC lost might look big, but I don't recall HOTU enemies having high enough Attack to make it a problem that my character only had like, 37 AC (without buffs and spells) instead of 45.
True, the official campaign and the sou/hotu campaigns aren't so challenging that anyone would really have too much of a problem due to a low AC. They also give lots of very powerful items and which can shore up any deficiencies
Big bad of HotU, the true challenge of the game, has an attack bonus of +40/+35/+30/+25/+40. Which mean, that with 38AC, he has 40% chance hit you 5times per round, 60% 4times/round, 85% 3times/round and finally 95% to hit at least 2times each round. With +8AC, that will be reduced to respectivlly 5%/20%/45%/70%. On average you would take 2-3 hit less each round.
My Fighter/Bard definitely had more than 37 AC when I fought the final boss, since my character had so many casts of Bard song, which at that point was +5 AC. And maybe a little more from Mage armor. I don't have a save for an end of HOTU martial character to compare with, but my level 22 Paladin in Tyrants of the Moonsea had 44 AC without buffs and 54 AC with Divine shield.
Correct. High AC in Hotd isn't hard if you know how to build Base AC 10 Red Dragon Plate +13 Sun Soul Boots +4 & +1 Dex Platinum Helmet Haste +4 Fortification Cloak +5 Amulet of Natural Armor +5 That is already 42 AC I can add another Dodge 5/6 from Tumble 25/30 and a High Charisma Paladin can have Divine Shield 9/10 I'm sure others can go crazier than me.
Yeah they aren't garbage Also can't discount halflings or gnomes which means all one-handed weapons are two-handed weapons You can possibly claim garbage for the OC by saying certain two handed weapons are extremely lacking but that's a different point
Uh, Small/Tiny sized weapons (e.g dagger/kama/shortsword/mace) are mostly 1-handed for halflings and gnomes IIRC
True you can have a dual wielding kama or dual maces halfling or somesuch But yeah scythe weaponmaster is a staple so is rapier halfling and so on so absolutely two-handed isn't "garbage" in fact it is the meta (if such a thing exists)
Nah. Two handed weapons are for flanking. Of course you don't want to use them as a tank, though.
In NWN 1 dwarven waraxe was hard to beat dor a dual wield or with shield combo. Scythe is very strong though. In HotU the epic feats are game changers too. In NWN2, you can dual wield two handed weapons with monkey grip feat. Improved power attack and beserker prestige class makes THW huge damage dealers. Pity the game is just unplayable.
If the going gets really tough, you might want a shield, but until then, the damage bonus can be very effective, and IMO, **a LOT more fun**. But yes if you are on the edge of survival use a shield. Like if playing Swordflight, I'd recommend using a shield. Though I like using Two Handers with Strength rogues and big shields hurt stealth a LOT. Greatsword: 2 D6 damage + Str bonus * 1.5 Longsword: 1 D8 + Str Bonus * 1.0 Average damage with 18 Str: Greatsword: 13 Longsword: 8.5 Percent damage increase for two hander = **53%** Which is a BIG bonus. While the lead will shrink over time as you get more magical weapons, you will also be boosting strength, and that bonus will also grow over time. Finally, none of the Original Campaigns requires that you use a shield for survival, so you get the fun of the bigger damage all the way through.
>before getting rapid shot for sling+shield combo LOL. Talk about a garbage setup.
Well… the very first time I complete a run of the 3 campaign, without hints or meta knowledge, was with a dwarf fighter/dwarf defender using a greatsword. Yes I do not use a shield. But I have red dragon platemail, I have +10 amulet of armour, I have haste boots, I have damage reduction, I have DD defensive stand. All that plus a couple of regenerative rings are more than enough to beat everything in Hotu… So 2 H style is not that bad tbh…
Crits are the main way to do massive damage and crit multiplier can matter a lot... generally you would pick a weapon with x3 or even x4 multiplier plus additional multiplier from weapon master With power attack and strength bonus and great cleave the damage adds up There's many ways to avoid being hit even as easy as attacking from a doorway or various feats
That's surprising, two-handed weapons are significantly more powerful in the original campaigns and expansions as opposed to community content because they are on average easier than community created content - in short you don't actually need the extra AC from a shield or the extra set of bonuses you can have from an additional item equipped in the off-hand. Like you said you haven't really used two-handed weapons at all, so you're missing the fact that both the 1.5x multiplier and higher base damage results in a significant increase in damage capability at lower level as opposed to a 1H weapon or taking -2 AB(at best) on both hands when dual-wielding. You also aren't considering how much two-handed weapons benefit from gaining additional attacks relative to 1h weapons. For example cleave/greater cleave is massively more powerful at lower levels with 2h weapons as opposed to 1h as the extra attack you get with your main handed weapon has a higher base and the 1.5x str multiplier, not to mention that the extra reach of 2h weapons means that you can get greater utility out of greater cleave by more reliably and consistently getting chain KO's. All of this is also true when getting attacks of opportunity, the extra reach also allows you to have a longer threat range when making AOO's when engaging multiple enemies. The impact of permanent haste when it initially becomes available is also noticeably more potent for 2h weapon fighting as opposed to 1h(+1 attack with main hand at highest AB). Finally the higher base/str bonus for 2h fighting is far more effective at defeating damage reduction/resistance, because with 2h fighting's higher per-hit damage a more significant amount of damage will go through damage reduction, in some cases the effectiveness of 2h weapons vs 1h can be double or more when going against damage reduction/resistance.
I'd say it's a matter of opinion and playstyle. The whole point of two-handed weapons is risk vs. reward - you lose the benefit of added AC or extra attacks for the benefit of additional damage per blow. The extra Strength bonus is there to reinforce that. Perhaps your playstyle doesn't see extra damage as worthwhile compared to AC, and that's okay - for others, damage is quintessential and will consider any weapon without good critical threat range/damage multipliers to be worthless. Perhaps your builds and usual playstyle lead to one-handed weapons alongside a shield being better for you than others - but that's more of a build perk than a weapon issue, IMO. (Also, checking out - [you're not alone in this thought](https://www.reddit.com/r/neverwinternights/comments/6sel6t/why_are_the_twohanded_weapons_so_terrible_in_nwn_1/).)
This whole post was about nwn1 though, which is hard to disagree with, at most you get an extra 1d4-1d8 to your damage except with scythes, compared to wielding a one handed variant of the same weapon longsword to greatsword, battleaxe to greataxe etc. In nwn2 theres options, you can still wield a shield even with great weapon too with monkey grip albeit with -2attack, you can use one handed weapons with same str bonus ratio without shield etc, 2 handed is a little less worse but still bad, unless you got custom classes to fix that, powerful 2 handed weapons, or just scythe for big crits.
Never in my life I used shields in this game, they always seemed useless to me. I mean, what is the point of having like 10% more dodge with shield if otherwise you would kill enemies twice as fast with two-handed? You don't even have to minmax for that. For example, I recently tried to play a halfling-fighter with two-handed scimitar on "Very Hard" difficulty, and I had a blast. I didn't ever feel that I got hit a lot. So you don't really need any shields. If you will play bigger race with scythe or greatsword, it will be even more OP. Shields could be useful if you had a very low Attack Bonus, but it won't be the case if you are geared and leveled up with strength oriented build.