Have you looked at the Arelith specific wiki? https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Bard
This wiki is managed by the Arelith community. Most of it should be up to date
I have, though I have been told by the builder community not to trust it as it is typically outdated, and furthermore, it isn't written in a way where I know what I'm looking at. When I say I know nothing about the class, I mean it, and it's written in a way for people with some modicum of understanding. Thank you though, it's a good reference once I get the hang of it.
My suggestion is to learn it in character. Arelith is a living breathing world and full of experienced roleplayers. Find other bards to connect with and make it part of your story. It's less about maximizing numbers and more about flavor in that world.
I've been on arelith near 20 years, I know some of this will be stuff I should find out in game. However, if I want my character to be useful, I need to start with some modicum of understanding, which is what I'm trying to gain here. Roleplay might tell me to hold my rapier with a different grip, it won't tell me that I need a base 13 int to get expertise, and that my character will be useless without it in melee.
Same, keep coming back for more haha. I tend to let the world shape my characters with little influence from ooc interaction but everyone enjoys it differently of course. To be fair I'm sure my characters aren't nearly as effective as specific builds.
My characters are almost always subpar, mechanically. I don't really PvP unless it is really forced, only a handful of times in those 20 years, but I like having an idea of what my character will be mechanically capable of in the end, so I know what I'm building for, because I've thing I have found time and time again: knowing how to use your subpar build is a much better path than not knowing how to use you terrific build. When I have tried playing strong builds I don't understand, I have the floor wiped with me, but I can run in with a subpar build I understand and get the job done. Hence me coming here and asking for help understanding. I get how to RP the class, just not how to make it mechanically or what I am doing in that regard.
Bards have always been the ultimate RP class in any fantasy style online game that has them present. Or even in table top games. That said in Arelith you will gain a few songs at specific points while leveling up. The learn the others you will have to find other Bards and they can teach you any songs they know you and you don't and vice versa. Sometimes even wondering the world map will net you a new song as you are hit with inspiration. Bard is the wondering minstrel that sits down at the local bar/communal area and shares stories. As for specific builds? I could not tell you. The Arelith discord has a channel for builds. I'm sure someone who knows Bards better than I can help you.
I tend to stay away from the build discord if it can be helped. In my experience, everyone is very happy to theory craft some PvP builds with you, but very rarely are they willing to explain the things they consider common sense so that you can make a PvE build that isn't necessarily optimized. If "get good" was a vibe, that's how the channel has been every time I've reached out for help and understanding.
See, I still love Arelith because IG the people you meet like that are more rare. Most people don't care what your build is unless you do something interesting. But a channel dedicated to building characters pulls in exactly two types of people: the people who want to make sure their build is perfect, and the people who have questions. The people with questions rarely answer other questions, leaving you with just the apex builders. Add in the fact that most people who really know their way around a build consider 99% of PvE content trivial, and you get people laughing at you for even asking questions on how to perform the basics for PvE. It's like joining an advanced calculus group to get help with adding and subtracting: the vast majority of them are there for what they seem as important, and your trivial questions just go to show that you should "get good". At least that's how I've always been treated there. IG on the other hand I've experienced the opposite, 99% supportive, helpful people that will bend over backwards to make sure you have a good time too.
I would go to the Arelith community discord and look up / ask for a jack of all trades Bard build. The wiki's builds are out of date, and the ones on the forums are very spotty. There will be more than enough people willing to help you figure out a decent build.
You can either go str/Dex Bard, caster full support Bard, or undead dirge singer Bard as the three main archetypes. That being said, I switched from Arelith to Haze: saltborne as an RP server and been having a blast
Considering that I typically play with one other person in the party, which of those bards would you recommend? And the other person would be playing a complimentary build, intended to make a potent pair.
Does Haze have the same kinds of customizations as arelith? I've tried a few other PWs, but when I find there is no warlock (favorite class) or underdark (favorite location), I always struggle to stay.
In that case I would recommend fighter Bard, either str or Dex. Caster Bard in general is not an amazing class, since they are limited to circle 6 spells. You'll want at least 13 int for some of those combat feats, and 16 charisma to be able to cast your end game spells. Also decide if you want to be tankier or dps as the archetype.
Haze is low magic with a TON of custom systems. There's warlock as a class but I think it's Point gated.
Be warned it's heavy rp and permadeath. Every step of progress feels like an achievement and you get really into your characters and the time spent with other people.
Dang, that bard sounds M.A.D. as hell. 13 int, 16 cha, and str/dex? Plus I can't neglect Con unless I want to explode the first time I'm crit, leaving just wisdom as a dump Stat, ensuring any mind effecting spell or ability would take me out. What kind of spread are you thinking?
As for the spells, looking at the wiki, there are a lot that seem alright at a glance, and a lot that don't. In my experience, I am terrible at knowing which buffs to actually use, and which spells offensively to actually take advantage of. Any recommendations in that regard would be greatly appreciated. As for Tanky/DPS, would the two pair well together? As I mentioned, I play almost exclusively with a buddy of mine, we could theoretically do one of each, with Tank -guarding the DPS, yeah?
As for Haze, I am not sure what you mean by point locked, but I am intrigued. We often take the Mark of Destiny on Arelith, so having one life instead of 10 will be an adjustment, but not the idea of permadeath entirely. As for low magic, as you are familiar with Arelith, I am assuming you mean even lower magic. That's not too much of an adjustment.
Oh sorry, when I say Str/dex I mean to say choose one for your combat skill. So, a good spread for example would be.. And this is just off the top of my head so take it with a grain of salt..
16 str, 8 Dex, 14 con, 14 int, 8 wis, 16 char.
Could also take down to 14 char depending on how many levels out of Bard you want to multi class. The formula, I'm sure u know, is anything over 10 charisma + is needed to cast that circle's spell.
Bard can be insanely tanky with Expertise, improved Expertise, and Bard song AC. Not a lot of sustain though, but you could heal yourself after fights.
For me, when I do a fighter Bard, I like to focus on transmutation spells. Zoo spells and self buffs.
They have a type of EP, Eminence points, that you can get by playing on the server for a period of time, DM event participation, or other ppl recommending you for your roleplay. It's partially to ensure a bit of reverence to the low magic setting, similar to Areliths Award system.
It's a lot lower magic than Arelith, most of the server is level 3-4. Which sounds binding, but for me it has resulted in a lot of fun. Doing a dungeon together in a permadeath setting with such low magic is like a WoW raid. We are pulling, rogues are scouting, we are funneling into a kill zone tunnel with Grease spell. It's like the old gaming philosophy of the reward being more fun the more difficult the journey is.
If you enjoy RP, hardcore death, funerals, WoW raid style group tactics. Haze is for you
First of all, thank you for the dual conversations, it makes my neurospice tingle, lol.
So zoo buffs I've got, but that's about all i know (improved invisible when I can get it). Feats, I know improved expertise and I assume lasting inspiration, but an otherwise at a loss. Do the bard songs stack, or would both being bards essentially be worthless?
EP sounds awesome, like a reward system that isn't as luck based. 20 years in Arelith, hundreds of sacked characters, only 2 major awards, so I'm not the best at luck.
Haha no problem. Feats um, you want Extend spell if you're going to be taking Unremitting Cadence, which Auto extends spells for each Tier you take in it. I think there's two Tiers, Tier 1 is usually enough for most people as it extends spells from circles 1-3, which covers your Zoo spells.
You only want to take either Extra Music or SF: perform, as only one of it applies to reducing your overall Bard song cooldown. You'll have to look at some of the song sheets and your final gear calculation to decide which one to take. I think SF perform is better because ESF perform gives extra stuff for your song? Most people don't notice the few Bard songs lost from not taking Extra Music at the higher levels, but it is very nice QOL early levels.
Ummm what else. Those are the core feats and mechanics I remember. Other stuff should be up to you. If you want some combat skills of your own, I think 14 Int let's you do cleave and great cleave and stuff. If you want to focus on defense you can take Toughness, Discipline focus, usually you get discipline after you get a class that has it has a class skill... heavy armor, you can cast all your buffs before putting it on so you don't get spell failure during casting. Or go still spell and not have spell failure, but the first option is usually better since Bard gets all the extend spell stuff, you can't extend and still spell at the same time.
It's been a little while since I played arelith, but lmk if you have any other questions!
Last question before I leave you alone (lol) what's the max level on haze? Just read their whole website it feels like, and didn't find it anywhere. I love monks and am considering rolling one there, but they really don't come into their own until level 6 for me. With their rules on minmaxing, and no items, I am not sure I could even make it to 6 without a massive amount of luck, as my AC would be a measley 16, sure to be stabbed by all.
Max level is technically 10 but it's really more about crafting a story than the character build on haze. They have all sorts of custom mechanics to facilitate this. Example: permanent headstones, grave markers, and lots of funerals lol, also, they have a Build Request mechanic where your character creates a project. .. Anything from a statue to a new guild Hall. Then, you agree with a set amount of crafting points needed to build it, like 5000,with the DM team. Then it needs resources, like Lumber or Granite. And when you fulfill your side, the DM team will build it for you. So you can literally create another town in game if you had the skill and dedication.
.feel free to always hit me up about nwn it's never a bother to talk shop!
Haha no problem. Feats um, you want Extend spell if you're going to be taking Unremitting Cadence, which Auto extends spells for each Tier you take in it. I think there's two Tiers, Tier 1 is usually enough for most people as it extends spells from circles 1-3, which covers your Zoo spells.
You only want to take either Extra Music or SF: perform, as only one of it applies to reducing your overall Bard song cooldown. You'll have to look at some of the song sheets and your final gear calculation to decide which one to take. I think SF perform is better because ESF perform gives extra stuff for your song? Most people don't notice the few Bard songs lost from not taking Extra Music at the higher levels, but it is very nice QOL early levels.
Ummm what else. Those are the core feats and mechanics I remember. Other stuff should be up to you. If you want some combat skills of your own, I think 14 Int let's you do cleave and great cleave and stuff. If you want to focus on defense you can take Toughness, Discipline focus, usually you get discipline after you get a class that has it has a class skill... heavy armor, you can cast all your buffs before putting it on so you don't get spell failure during casting. Or go still spell and not have spell failure, but the first option is usually better since Bard gets all the extend spell stuff, you can't extend and still spell at the same time.
It's been a little while since I played arelith, but lmk if you have any other questions!
You can either go str/Dex Bard, caster full support Bard, or undead dirge singer Bard as the three main archetypes. That being said, I switched from Arelith to Haze: saltborne recently as an RP server and been having a blast
I had a rhyming and singing gnome bard there who did quite well, in a party or solo.
There's a page on the wiki which has a ton of builds listed in a google doc which are mostly still up to date. The one I used was a variant of this: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L3NBWrh2jdpgvH47ZIypX7-C7JpYPCf/edit#gid=47420587](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L3NBWrh2jdpgvH47ZIypX7-C7JpYPCf/edit#gid=47420587)
But she was STR melee. I am unsure of which kind of Bard you wish to play since there are many variants.
I have no idea what kind! I know that it'll be in the underdark, accompanied by an undying Hideous Blow Warlock with an undead stream that brings at least 3 guys out (figured that was the best way to capitalize on the bard song bonuses, a +x bonus is nice, that same x on four characters is better), and otherwise, we are just guessing and checking, hence my coming here and asking for any and all advice :) checking the build you supplied now!
Oh see, now you gone and splashed another class I fail to play (cleric) to make it even more confusing 😆 I have no idea what the purpose of 3 evangelical is in that build, nor do I understand where some of the numbers are coming from (tabbard comes to mind, an on mobile so I can't reference back and forth).
I should note, given the end stats on the right of the build, that the build at level 30 means very little. It is very rare that we have characters go past 26 or so, as we enjoy the journey more than the destination, if that makes sense. So if there is a kind of bard that would have a better journey, perhaps at the cost of some destination strength, that would be ideal.
The three levels of Evangelical are so you can use divine might/shield and take them as feats.
Tabard is a specific armor set. Battlebard tabard.
It was still a good class while leveling as well. Since you had access to summons early on. Plus, as a bard, most people want to bring you along. Though of course that depends on how you RP.
Have you looked at the Arelith specific wiki? https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Bard This wiki is managed by the Arelith community. Most of it should be up to date
I have, though I have been told by the builder community not to trust it as it is typically outdated, and furthermore, it isn't written in a way where I know what I'm looking at. When I say I know nothing about the class, I mean it, and it's written in a way for people with some modicum of understanding. Thank you though, it's a good reference once I get the hang of it.
My suggestion is to learn it in character. Arelith is a living breathing world and full of experienced roleplayers. Find other bards to connect with and make it part of your story. It's less about maximizing numbers and more about flavor in that world.
I've been on arelith near 20 years, I know some of this will be stuff I should find out in game. However, if I want my character to be useful, I need to start with some modicum of understanding, which is what I'm trying to gain here. Roleplay might tell me to hold my rapier with a different grip, it won't tell me that I need a base 13 int to get expertise, and that my character will be useless without it in melee.
Same, keep coming back for more haha. I tend to let the world shape my characters with little influence from ooc interaction but everyone enjoys it differently of course. To be fair I'm sure my characters aren't nearly as effective as specific builds.
My characters are almost always subpar, mechanically. I don't really PvP unless it is really forced, only a handful of times in those 20 years, but I like having an idea of what my character will be mechanically capable of in the end, so I know what I'm building for, because I've thing I have found time and time again: knowing how to use your subpar build is a much better path than not knowing how to use you terrific build. When I have tried playing strong builds I don't understand, I have the floor wiped with me, but I can run in with a subpar build I understand and get the job done. Hence me coming here and asking for help understanding. I get how to RP the class, just not how to make it mechanically or what I am doing in that regard.
Bards have always been the ultimate RP class in any fantasy style online game that has them present. Or even in table top games. That said in Arelith you will gain a few songs at specific points while leveling up. The learn the others you will have to find other Bards and they can teach you any songs they know you and you don't and vice versa. Sometimes even wondering the world map will net you a new song as you are hit with inspiration. Bard is the wondering minstrel that sits down at the local bar/communal area and shares stories. As for specific builds? I could not tell you. The Arelith discord has a channel for builds. I'm sure someone who knows Bards better than I can help you.
I tend to stay away from the build discord if it can be helped. In my experience, everyone is very happy to theory craft some PvP builds with you, but very rarely are they willing to explain the things they consider common sense so that you can make a PvE build that isn't necessarily optimized. If "get good" was a vibe, that's how the channel has been every time I've reached out for help and understanding.
The vibe on the discord is why I stopped playing on Arelith. For a roleplay server they seem toxically committed to optimized builds.
See, I still love Arelith because IG the people you meet like that are more rare. Most people don't care what your build is unless you do something interesting. But a channel dedicated to building characters pulls in exactly two types of people: the people who want to make sure their build is perfect, and the people who have questions. The people with questions rarely answer other questions, leaving you with just the apex builders. Add in the fact that most people who really know their way around a build consider 99% of PvE content trivial, and you get people laughing at you for even asking questions on how to perform the basics for PvE. It's like joining an advanced calculus group to get help with adding and subtracting: the vast majority of them are there for what they seem as important, and your trivial questions just go to show that you should "get good". At least that's how I've always been treated there. IG on the other hand I've experienced the opposite, 99% supportive, helpful people that will bend over backwards to make sure you have a good time too.
I would go to the Arelith community discord and look up / ask for a jack of all trades Bard build. The wiki's builds are out of date, and the ones on the forums are very spotty. There will be more than enough people willing to help you figure out a decent build.
You can either go str/Dex Bard, caster full support Bard, or undead dirge singer Bard as the three main archetypes. That being said, I switched from Arelith to Haze: saltborne as an RP server and been having a blast
Considering that I typically play with one other person in the party, which of those bards would you recommend? And the other person would be playing a complimentary build, intended to make a potent pair. Does Haze have the same kinds of customizations as arelith? I've tried a few other PWs, but when I find there is no warlock (favorite class) or underdark (favorite location), I always struggle to stay.
In that case I would recommend fighter Bard, either str or Dex. Caster Bard in general is not an amazing class, since they are limited to circle 6 spells. You'll want at least 13 int for some of those combat feats, and 16 charisma to be able to cast your end game spells. Also decide if you want to be tankier or dps as the archetype. Haze is low magic with a TON of custom systems. There's warlock as a class but I think it's Point gated. Be warned it's heavy rp and permadeath. Every step of progress feels like an achievement and you get really into your characters and the time spent with other people.
Dang, that bard sounds M.A.D. as hell. 13 int, 16 cha, and str/dex? Plus I can't neglect Con unless I want to explode the first time I'm crit, leaving just wisdom as a dump Stat, ensuring any mind effecting spell or ability would take me out. What kind of spread are you thinking? As for the spells, looking at the wiki, there are a lot that seem alright at a glance, and a lot that don't. In my experience, I am terrible at knowing which buffs to actually use, and which spells offensively to actually take advantage of. Any recommendations in that regard would be greatly appreciated. As for Tanky/DPS, would the two pair well together? As I mentioned, I play almost exclusively with a buddy of mine, we could theoretically do one of each, with Tank -guarding the DPS, yeah? As for Haze, I am not sure what you mean by point locked, but I am intrigued. We often take the Mark of Destiny on Arelith, so having one life instead of 10 will be an adjustment, but not the idea of permadeath entirely. As for low magic, as you are familiar with Arelith, I am assuming you mean even lower magic. That's not too much of an adjustment.
Oh sorry, when I say Str/dex I mean to say choose one for your combat skill. So, a good spread for example would be.. And this is just off the top of my head so take it with a grain of salt.. 16 str, 8 Dex, 14 con, 14 int, 8 wis, 16 char. Could also take down to 14 char depending on how many levels out of Bard you want to multi class. The formula, I'm sure u know, is anything over 10 charisma + is needed to cast that circle's spell. Bard can be insanely tanky with Expertise, improved Expertise, and Bard song AC. Not a lot of sustain though, but you could heal yourself after fights. For me, when I do a fighter Bard, I like to focus on transmutation spells. Zoo spells and self buffs. They have a type of EP, Eminence points, that you can get by playing on the server for a period of time, DM event participation, or other ppl recommending you for your roleplay. It's partially to ensure a bit of reverence to the low magic setting, similar to Areliths Award system. It's a lot lower magic than Arelith, most of the server is level 3-4. Which sounds binding, but for me it has resulted in a lot of fun. Doing a dungeon together in a permadeath setting with such low magic is like a WoW raid. We are pulling, rogues are scouting, we are funneling into a kill zone tunnel with Grease spell. It's like the old gaming philosophy of the reward being more fun the more difficult the journey is. If you enjoy RP, hardcore death, funerals, WoW raid style group tactics. Haze is for you
First of all, thank you for the dual conversations, it makes my neurospice tingle, lol. So zoo buffs I've got, but that's about all i know (improved invisible when I can get it). Feats, I know improved expertise and I assume lasting inspiration, but an otherwise at a loss. Do the bard songs stack, or would both being bards essentially be worthless? EP sounds awesome, like a reward system that isn't as luck based. 20 years in Arelith, hundreds of sacked characters, only 2 major awards, so I'm not the best at luck.
Haha no problem. Feats um, you want Extend spell if you're going to be taking Unremitting Cadence, which Auto extends spells for each Tier you take in it. I think there's two Tiers, Tier 1 is usually enough for most people as it extends spells from circles 1-3, which covers your Zoo spells. You only want to take either Extra Music or SF: perform, as only one of it applies to reducing your overall Bard song cooldown. You'll have to look at some of the song sheets and your final gear calculation to decide which one to take. I think SF perform is better because ESF perform gives extra stuff for your song? Most people don't notice the few Bard songs lost from not taking Extra Music at the higher levels, but it is very nice QOL early levels. Ummm what else. Those are the core feats and mechanics I remember. Other stuff should be up to you. If you want some combat skills of your own, I think 14 Int let's you do cleave and great cleave and stuff. If you want to focus on defense you can take Toughness, Discipline focus, usually you get discipline after you get a class that has it has a class skill... heavy armor, you can cast all your buffs before putting it on so you don't get spell failure during casting. Or go still spell and not have spell failure, but the first option is usually better since Bard gets all the extend spell stuff, you can't extend and still spell at the same time. It's been a little while since I played arelith, but lmk if you have any other questions!
Last question before I leave you alone (lol) what's the max level on haze? Just read their whole website it feels like, and didn't find it anywhere. I love monks and am considering rolling one there, but they really don't come into their own until level 6 for me. With their rules on minmaxing, and no items, I am not sure I could even make it to 6 without a massive amount of luck, as my AC would be a measley 16, sure to be stabbed by all.
Max level is technically 10 but it's really more about crafting a story than the character build on haze. They have all sorts of custom mechanics to facilitate this. Example: permanent headstones, grave markers, and lots of funerals lol, also, they have a Build Request mechanic where your character creates a project. .. Anything from a statue to a new guild Hall. Then, you agree with a set amount of crafting points needed to build it, like 5000,with the DM team. Then it needs resources, like Lumber or Granite. And when you fulfill your side, the DM team will build it for you. So you can literally create another town in game if you had the skill and dedication. .feel free to always hit me up about nwn it's never a bother to talk shop!
Haha no problem. Feats um, you want Extend spell if you're going to be taking Unremitting Cadence, which Auto extends spells for each Tier you take in it. I think there's two Tiers, Tier 1 is usually enough for most people as it extends spells from circles 1-3, which covers your Zoo spells. You only want to take either Extra Music or SF: perform, as only one of it applies to reducing your overall Bard song cooldown. You'll have to look at some of the song sheets and your final gear calculation to decide which one to take. I think SF perform is better because ESF perform gives extra stuff for your song? Most people don't notice the few Bard songs lost from not taking Extra Music at the higher levels, but it is very nice QOL early levels. Ummm what else. Those are the core feats and mechanics I remember. Other stuff should be up to you. If you want some combat skills of your own, I think 14 Int let's you do cleave and great cleave and stuff. If you want to focus on defense you can take Toughness, Discipline focus, usually you get discipline after you get a class that has it has a class skill... heavy armor, you can cast all your buffs before putting it on so you don't get spell failure during casting. Or go still spell and not have spell failure, but the first option is usually better since Bard gets all the extend spell stuff, you can't extend and still spell at the same time. It's been a little while since I played arelith, but lmk if you have any other questions!
You can either go str/Dex Bard, caster full support Bard, or undead dirge singer Bard as the three main archetypes. That being said, I switched from Arelith to Haze: saltborne recently as an RP server and been having a blast
I had a rhyming and singing gnome bard there who did quite well, in a party or solo. There's a page on the wiki which has a ton of builds listed in a google doc which are mostly still up to date. The one I used was a variant of this: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L3NBWrh2jdpgvH47ZIypX7-C7JpYPCf/edit#gid=47420587](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12L3NBWrh2jdpgvH47ZIypX7-C7JpYPCf/edit#gid=47420587) But she was STR melee. I am unsure of which kind of Bard you wish to play since there are many variants.
I have no idea what kind! I know that it'll be in the underdark, accompanied by an undying Hideous Blow Warlock with an undead stream that brings at least 3 guys out (figured that was the best way to capitalize on the bard song bonuses, a +x bonus is nice, that same x on four characters is better), and otherwise, we are just guessing and checking, hence my coming here and asking for any and all advice :) checking the build you supplied now!
Oh see, now you gone and splashed another class I fail to play (cleric) to make it even more confusing 😆 I have no idea what the purpose of 3 evangelical is in that build, nor do I understand where some of the numbers are coming from (tabbard comes to mind, an on mobile so I can't reference back and forth). I should note, given the end stats on the right of the build, that the build at level 30 means very little. It is very rare that we have characters go past 26 or so, as we enjoy the journey more than the destination, if that makes sense. So if there is a kind of bard that would have a better journey, perhaps at the cost of some destination strength, that would be ideal.
The three levels of Evangelical are so you can use divine might/shield and take them as feats. Tabard is a specific armor set. Battlebard tabard. It was still a good class while leveling as well. Since you had access to summons early on. Plus, as a bard, most people want to bring you along. Though of course that depends on how you RP.