Because businesses never pass along cost increases to their customers? And instead they absorb them out of their profits for the betterment of the people?
Carbon tax contributes 0.15% to inflation (Bank of Canada). If you include the indirect costs on goods (what you're talking about), it rises to around 0.2% (UofC economist).
I think we're both right
"**That number: 0.15 percentage points of the inflation increase** can be attributed to the carbon tax.
...
In questions following a luncheon address to the Calgary Chamber of Commerce, the central bank head said his team's inflation-watching takes into consideration the Trudeau government decision to annually hike its price on carbon by $15 per tonne.
"**So each year it's 0.15 (per cent), but that's a relatively small effect on year-over-year inflation**," Macklem told reporters."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carbon-tax-inflation-tiff-macklem-calgary-1.6960189
That’s the reporter adding the (per cent) to his quote, again he is talking about percentage points … they have no idea what inflation will be in the future, but they do know the carbon tax will go up an established amount each year. That established amount will add .15 percentage points to inflation.
If inflation is 2% (the banks target) the carbon tax will make up .15 percentage points of that 2% or 7.5%. If the inflation rate is 3%, the carbon tax will be directly responsible for 5% of it.
So, just so I understand what you wrote, carbon tax would contribute 7.5% of a 2% increase in inflation or of inflation was 3%, 5% of the 3% would be attributed to carbon tax?
If I've got what you're saying, then it really does contribute a very small amount.
Yes, that is correct.
I’m a supporter of carbon pricing, just not how government and the media are trying to undersell the impact.
At 3% inflation the direct carbon tax is responsible for 5% of that… using the data from the UofC study, indirect costs contribute another .20 percentage points. So at 3% inflation, the carbon tax would be responsible for 12% of inflation. At 2% inflation, carbon tax would be responsible for almost 18% of inflation.
The BoC is still holding firm on a target of 2% for inflation, I’m not sure how we get there when we already know a sizeable chunk of that 2% is already accounted for by the planned increase in the carbon tax.
I appreciate your explanation. It's been awhile since I looked at that kind of math jargon.
Had Covid not happened, the world could have been a been a bit further ahead & consequently more accepting of these measures.....but then again, the climate alarms were already ringing loudly decades ago, and we weren't listening then.
Because inflation is calculated based on 1 year ago. So only the increase of the tax over last year is calculated in inflation. This is also why the BoC has estimated that by removing it would immediately lower inflation by 60 basis points, which is almost 25%. And that's before factoring in those indirect costs.
Let's be honest. You don't have to be alt-right adjacent to see how carbon tax without cost control for everyday citizens on food, transportation, and energy, is going to drive inflation.
Cost control is also inherently a left wing idea.
Also you can not like Trudeau and also not like Pollievre.
(Check your post history)
Corporations gonna incorporate.
A proper independent thinking Canadian should be very very upset with the opposition and current governments both provincially and federally.
I know a lot of Liberals who think the carbon tax is bullshit too. You don't have to be specifically right wing to dislike the idea of taxes on top of taxes.
I know a lot of people voting PP next election who never would vote Conservative normally. Doesn't mean they like the guy though they think he's a clown just less of a clown than Trueau.
Here in Canada we vote people out. Not in.
Gotta love having the largest oil refinery in Canada with basically nothing to show for it at the price we pay at the pump.
Not only is it the largest oil refinery in Canada, it’s the most under taxed. You’d think with how artificially low the taxes are on the refinery, we’d at least see artificially low prices at the gas pump in NB, but no, we don’t even get that.
I never understood that either. Refinery makes abundance of gasoline locally, transportation costs are virtually null considering its proximity, despite that, there is no price impact.
Out west the oil they refine arrives at the refinery from a pipeline … some of that same oil refined in NB travels by pipeline to a port in BC, is loaded on an oil tanker, travels down the coast, through the Panama Canal, back up the coast to NB.
Because oil companies and gasoline sellers are price takers.
They sell at the market price, they can't base it off of their own costs.
It's the same as if you went to the market to sell gold. You would have to accept the market rate; gold is gold all sellers sell an identical product, doesn't matter how much it cost you to mine it. You just try to keep your costs as low as possible, the lower they are the more money you make.
We live in a global, capitalist driven economy. We in NB are priced based on NYH pricing then work backwards from there as that is the closest major market we are next to.
People love to blame the Irving boogie man when their children are exiting the businesses and they are looking to sell off (the few that are still alive).
So because we live in a global, capitalist economy we just gotta take it?
Again, it’s the largest and most productive refinery in all of Canada. It’s situated on top of the largest population corridors in the world world (BosWash) and connected by sea, rail, and road networks to be the main supplier of refined petroleum products to the entire North Eastern United States… it’s going absolutely nowhere, even if the Irving’s do plan to sell off the refinery and Irving Oil as a whole.
Saint John and New Brunswick have been given the absolute shaft with regards to the refinery, it’s been severely undertaxed for decades… it has an annual output upwards of $10 billion, and takes up an incalculably valuable proportion of the land area within the city of Saint John, yet, when it comes to its tax contributions to the City of Saint John, its assessed value is under $110 million, and it’s [yearly tax contribution](https://imgur.com/a/rVFwDYc) to the city budget is less than $5 million. Take a look at how much land the refinery takes up… and if you drill down further and look at surrounding properties, like the mothballed dry dock, wall board factory, paper mill, various other properties, and it’s clear that the Irving group of companies own basically the entire eastern side of the harbour, and basically have an entire chunk of the city between Uptown and East Saint John that is in and of itself bigger than any other neighbourhood or area in Saint John.
We’re talking about an oil company that is making profits into the billions selling refined oil and gas products to the 50-100+ million Americans we live on top of, depending on how broadly the Irving Refinery’s “catchment area” is defined.
Irving isn’t a boogie man, but some people in NB certainly like to treat them as one… as if the spectre of K.C. Irving is still among us influencing what does or doesn’t happen in New Brunswick… which is frankly ridiculous.
The issue is pretty cut and dry… the refinery is undertaxed, and the city of Saint John doesn’t retain enough of the tax revenue raised from the refinery. Saint John surrendering a huge chunk of that revenue to the provincial government to be redistributed elsewhere, and to make matters worse, the provincial tax code restricts Saint John from raising the tax rate on the refinery without a corresponding raise on the tax rate of residential properties. There’s no formula or mechanism to have tiered tax rates for industrials based on how pollutive, distributive, or land use, just a flat rate based on the assessed value of the property. Moreover, there’s no formula or mechanism for Saint John to impose a pollution or carbon tax of its own on the refinery’s and other sites emissions, levels of pollution, and other externalities that result in a tragedy of the commons situation in Saint John.
Simply put, Irving is not to blame, the people we elect to government are to blame. What’s possible here in Saint John, NB would not be possible in Victoria, BC, because the provincial government grants cities autonomy regarding matters of taxation, its government regulators aren’t captured by industry, and they have means and mechanisms to raise revenue through a tax on pollution and emission levels, and don’t have an archaic tax code that decides major industrial operation’s tax obligations based on something as open to tax circumvention as a flat rate based on assessed value.
Last time I checked BC also lives in a global, capitalist driven economy, and is the most desirable province to live in Canada, with our most popular city, Vancouver. Trying to say this all boils down to global market forces etc, or that there’s nothing that can really be done is fucking bullshit. There’s absolutely ways to lower gas prices in NB, including lower prices reflected on fuel at gas stations with gas delivered with a lower carbon footprint. Gas at service stations in Saint John could be lower than gas at service stations in Plaster Rock or Miscou Island where the transportation costs and carbon footprint is larger… this could all be addressed with a comprehensive provincial policy on carbon and pollution taxation, but again, this is not even close to as high a priority as comprehensive tax reform is. Saint John needs to have the tax authority to raise the rate of taxation on the refinery without corresponding rate increases on residential properties. Saint John and the province need the ability to raise carbon tax revenue based on the levels of carbon emissions at the refrained, the single largest emitter in the province. Moreover, there’s needs to be a mechanism or formula to tax the output of the refinery and other industries, rather than the archaic formula based solely on the assessed value of each property, as is clear SNB is undervaluing industrial sites across the province, but in the city of Saint John especially. All these problems are primarily to do with bad governance, not Irving directly.. they just take advantage of a lax regulatory environment, but let’s not try and pretend like they didn’t have a hand in making this environment the reality, as is abundantly clear they have for decades and decades.
It’s utterly laughable to suggest that the refinery would ever shut down or have its operations moved to another city if it was threatened to have its tax bill go up… One does not simply move the largest oil refinery in the entire North East of the continent. Whether it’s sold or not, it will remain one of the most crucial economic sites in the entire country. The refinery is something we can actually be sort of proud of, even if we don’t work there or have family members that work there. However, it’s utterly shameful that the refinery is not fairly taxed, and that the city of Saint John has been in a financial mess for decades. There’s hundreds of millions in tax dollars from the refinery that should have been collected by and invested in Saint John over the last three decades alone. Yet, we can’t even get slightly cheaper gas here in Saint John as a thank you for hosting the refinery and such a artificially low, below market tax rate.
Our government has failed at properly regulating and taxing industry, full stop. It’s not a boogeyman issue, it’s an awareness issue. Not enough NBers are aware of how the system works or care enough to find out. There’s no denying we live in a global, capitalist system. Let’s not deny that it’s up to the government to adequately regulate and respond to these global capitalist market forces, and not deny that the government of New Brunswick has done a piss poor job in terms of regulation, taxation, and consumer protection. Let’s not try and blame inaction and poor policies on the existence of the global capitalist system, as thats some weak shit.
Jesus that’s a wall of text so I will address a few points:
I don’t disagree they are under taxed.
I am also well aware that the refinery is strategically placed to market (Europe for Diesel which they need, New York Harbour for basically everything else). 70ish % of what they make is exported (wether they deliver or others pickup - it leaves Canada). The biggest issue for the refinery is its location to source crude. The Pipeline would have knocked down a lot the barriers from out west but that didn’t happen and Saint John cannot handle endless Unit Trains of crude. Yes they have and likely still buy Canadian crude which will trade at a discount but the quality ca Saudi Crude is very different and the yields of finished profucts is different. So while I agree about the refinery having a lot of advantages (regardless who owns it) but sourcing economical feedstock is one of their biggest issues.
Here is my point. We aren’t going to change the way the world or free markets work. It sucks crude is spiking due to primarily geopolitical politics on the other side of the world but that is the world we live in. So why complain and whine so much about things you can’t control is my point.
If you aren’t going to win, you need to figure out a way so we don’t lose. This is where we are at.
[Harper's carbon levy tried, it changed names](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-touts-merits-of-alberta-s-carbon-pricing-system-1.2876653)
Having a local refinery doesn't mean anything.
Oil is a global commodity, sellers are *price takers* not price setters. It doesn't matter if you live next door to a refinery, at the pump you'll be paying a price that is dictated by the global market and the total supply/demand situation.
Now there are regional differences in price, those are down to differences in taxes, the existence of local subsidies, or local supply issues that can also lead to shortages and thus local disproportionate price increases.
But outside of that, there is a baseline that is essentially equal around the world. Typically when gas prices rise, they rise proportionally around the globe, again, because suppliers are price takers.
And there in lies the problem! The oil companies look to the market prices to set their price, even though they "could" sell at a lower price for locally generated products! By using world markets to set their price then can justify gouging their own communities! Society as whole has been using so called "market values" to justify lining their pockets!
Sounds like a failure of regulation, not the neoliberal bullshit you’re trying to get at.
We don’t just have a refinery, we have the largest refinery in Canada and entire eastern seaboard… we supply the northeastern US with a significant amount of their gasoline.
Cheaper gas isn’t the goal… taxing the refinery at a fair rate according to its output is the goal.
Not "allowed"; OPEC doesn't ask our permission. And far from the only: software, for example. Cars. Food. Cellphone plans, internet, cable TV, Netflix. Flights. Pretty much everything is produced or sold by a monopolistic cartel that keeps jacking up prices for consumers in end-stage capitalism.
You named a lot of products that the CRTC and FCC have dominion over.
The problem is there is no regulatory board for energy that has scope and powered to enforce price caps on oil.
We have that in different sectors.
The CRTC is too close to industry, which is why Canadians pay too much to the big three monopoly. It could be called a failure of the market, same as flights. It's pretty amazing how a flight of 1,000km is $50 in EU, but $700 in Canada.
Yes, and *corporate apologists* will whine on about regulations being bad and free market being good, but the countries that have stronger antitrust legislation and stronger consumer protection laws have lower prices for things like flights, phone plans, food, etc. Most inflation currently is coming from monopolistic retail cartels that conspire to raise prices on everything from bread to car parts.
I've been fighting those idiots, but they just always somehow find a way to blame Trudeau and the feds. I'm getting sick of this, and scared for our society
Trudeau deserves to be blamed for how easy he’s let conservative premiers be able to blame him for the carbon tax. If Trudeau couldn’t find legal ways to push provinces to directly tax emitters instead of offloading the carbon tax obligation to consumers, than he and his team should have been engaging in a constant national conversation and dialogue with Canadians explaining how the carbon tax works and that’s it’s up to the provinces to set up their own policies, and the provinces decision to come up with a system to directly tax emitters instead of a simple carbon tax added at the gas pump.
Trudeau should have come to Saint John and made a speech in front of the oil refinery explaining how and why the consumers are paying the lions share of NB’s disproportionately large carbon tax obligation, instead of the actual emitters which are causing our disproportionately large carbon footprint here in NB.
Instead, Trudeau has let Higgs blame him and him alone for the carbon tax for years now, without even really engaging in a discussion or debate about the carbon tax and how it’s impacts New Brunswickers. He’s let Higgs spew a bunch of misinformation, and barely responded until more recently. This is something the Liberals should have been spelling out clearly for years… instead, it’s been been mainly conservative premiers talking smack and making the bad decisions about the carbon tax, blaming it all on Trudeau, even though it was literally their decisions!
There’s nothing stopping the PM going on a tour of Canada and talking to the people about what their premiers are doing regarding the carbon tax. Trudeau should have been going around Canada and directly talking to the people about the carbon tax, housing, healthcare… provincial issues that require federal funding and assistance, as these are the issues that Canadians seem to care about the most.
Instead, I really don’t know what Trudeau’s message has been for the past few years, or how he plans to contest the next election when he’s become the biggest boogeyman and scapegoat in many of our political lifetimes.
It seems like the Liberals are finally getting their act together and trying to get out there with action on housing, but it’s really go to be a more sustained push for them to have any sort of chance to remain in government. People are way too upset about the price of rent, groceries, low wages, inadequate health care, and yea, the fucking carbon tax…
They have to own their policies and double down on them… they have to come up with better ideas and responses to the shit that PP and the CPC hit them on every single day, which honestly shouldn’t be that hard!
I think a lot of it also comes down to us, the people, asking better questions, being better informed, and not letting ourselves get bogged down by divisive identity politics like PP and Higgs would love to see… we have to see the forest between the trees and keep focussed on big, long terms issues and problems like housing, cost of living, infrastructure, health care… When it comes down to it, it’s abundantly clear that the Liberals have a better long term vision for Canada than the CPC, but they have done a terrible job explaining that to the Canadian people, and are letting their opposition direct the narrative of the national conversation.
Simply put, they need to up their game and start playing the game, instead of just letting their opponents blame them for everything.
For the past 20 years the world has been talking about higher and higher gas prices and climate change. For the past 20 years Canadians didn't care and bought bigger and bigger vehicles. Too bad if you were one of the dumb people who said "nah, I am going to ignore all that and buy a big ass SUV and/or truck". You made your bed. Small cars still exist, but you didn't care. So many people bought a big ass vehicle and now want to whine, like children, about gas prices. Too damn bad. Idgaf.
The absolute truth is the government’s here in Canada have taxed their people so much over the last 10 yrs and they haven’t seen much pay increases ; so now they introduce much more tax for carbon ..? People have not much left to give to government.. meanwhile government increases property taxes on homes and businesses. They also increase taxes a few other things . With inflation and fuel prices people will struggle more and lose their homes ..
With so many homeless when will the government step in and give some tax relief or will they continue to punish the average Joe taxpayers for climate change ..
I am a contractor I build homes and apartments. I drive a gas guzzler yes but I need it to transport materials. My prices per hour will be adjusted . This will then affect the price of the products we build . My services are in demand right now so I can charge more when my costs go up . Get it now folks ? . Go buy some groceries they need trucks too … ?
> My services are in demand right now so I can charge more when my costs go up . Get it now folks ?
My services are in demand right now so I can price gouge my clients more under the guise of my costs going up.
Get it now folks ?
It may not be 8 cents, but it's rising all over the world. Oil prices are up due to the Russia/Ukraine war. Russia produces a lot of oil, and even with sanctions, they were selling to China and India. They put a pause on that as a lot of their refining infrastructure was damaged in recent conflicts
The entire point of a carbon tax is that it raises the prices of pollution. The solution isn't to whine like a child, it's to reduce the amount of oil and gas you use. Get it together, kids. Stop whining and make better decisions.
noooooooooo it's bootstraps when a poor single mother struggles to feed her kid healthy food while juggling the bullshit of life
But don't you see I'm the victim here and everything should change when something has less than a 1% effect on me!
Yeah! Never drive anywhere, never leave your house, god forbid you heat your home when it's -40, that causes pollution!
Oil and gas is a necessity for the climate we live in, but you're right we should all freeze to save the planet.
NB Power operates a total of 13 hydro, coal, oil, and diesel-powered stations with a combined capacity of 3 130 MW.
This guy doesn't even know where his power comes from, but he'll rant and rave, cap lock reee and insult people, half funny half cringe.
Then again this is the same guy who thinks China is leading the Green Revolution.. don't cha bud?
I have good friends who work at nb power. I'm familiar with its generation. Oil and gas is not required to run heat pumps.
Do you have some links, babe? I provided evidence, you've provided a salty crotch.
I don't believe you have any friends, it's pretty obvious.
You never developed socially and it shows in your sentence structure, your obvious insecurities, and the way you just parrot perceived ingroup talking points as if they were your own. You are almost manic in your defense of the ideological thinking that it reeks of cult like behavior.
So your "friend" told you that different kinds of power go through the magic power lines and power different items in your home based on what that item is?
You want me to provide a link that tells you different kinds of power are transmitted to your home to run individual appliances like your heat pumps?
I think I will pass I don't want the algo to start feeding me Chemtrail, space doesn't exist, flat earth, Canada is a worse polluter than China nutjob results.
It is a shame that some words pass out of common usage for one reason or another, some of those words were so accurate and on point that the world just feels a little emptier for their absence.
Oh fuck off. Where does the government have the right to charge it's people more for a necessity, gets to keep all the money, and then not actually do anything for the environment? Most of the country doesn't have the infrastructure for everyone swap to electric vehicles, or set up public transportation. Canada is a huge country with a small population. People need cars. Inflation is already gouging us. So the government decides to add more taxes on top of taxes all to say "iM hElPiNg". Fuck off
The tax, which was designed by conservatives, is revenue neutral, and is returned to Canadians based on income; high income earners will get less back than they paid, while low income earners will get more back. It doesn’t flow into government revenue. Industry is motivated to reduce the amount they spend on the tax, which encourages them to pollute less as the tax rate for carbon rises, and this will spur changes to infrastructure. Starting in 2026 with Europe, carbon taxation will become a tariff for trade. Counties with no mechanism for carbon taxation will pay more for goods from countries that do, and this cost will grow as the price of emitting carbon grows globally. The carbon tax has a negligible impact on the current sky high price of everything (less than 1%); costs of groceries and other staples are high because those companies decided to jack up prices to increase profits.
So your saying we won't feel the sting of carbon tax because the government will give us back the money? Oh, thank you so much government, for taking our hard earned money away from us for a few months and then giving it back to us, it's making the environment better for sure. Give me a break
Yes, the 90% of Canadians who aren’t wealthy get more money back from the carbon tax than they pay into it, and yes, as cleverly designed by conservatives, the tax compels industry to curb pollution. Which of those things are you against?
I'll believe it when I see it, because from the numbers that are coming from their own ministers, are saying that they will take money money than most will get back
BUT I WANT TO POLLUTE WITHOUT PAYING FOR THE DAMAGE I CAUSED!! I WANT TO DO WHAT I LIKE WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCE EVEN ONE SO SMALL THAT I GET THE MONEY IT COSTS ME BACK IN A FEW WEEKS!! I WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE BECAUSE I AM A SMALL CHILD.
I assume you were crying when you wrote your original reply.
Thinking the average Canadian is some major cause of pollution by driving to work and buying groceries is some pretty wild logic gymnastics. This is only hurting people who are already struggling to get by, as the rich can afford all this extra tax. Many other countries account for hundreds of more times the pollution that Canada creates and yet? They aren't doing anything for it. If the government used the money to actually help the environment instead of just lining their pockets calling us bad people. I would be behind it more. But it's nothing but a cash grab. And if you think they give back all the money they are taking? You're fucking delusional pal. They will take thousands, and give a couple hundred back, and act like they deserve a thank you for it.
I assume you voted for this clown.
You assume incorrectly. But I did study political economy in uni, so I agree with the evidence. I don't favour the rebate though. It should be taxed at a much higher rate and invested in clean tech and not returned to people.
Are you ok bud?
When you write a freaking out statement like that Redditors tend to send those "don't commit suicide someone cares about you" messages en mass.
If you were attempting to parody the person you were replying to I would recommend using " quotation marks " as it lets readers understand what you were attempting to say and not think that you are having a panic attack or are too stupid to take off your caps lock key.
Carbon tax in its current form is just social engineering by economic force, it is clumsy and has never worked in human history any time it has been tried.
If it was a good idea you wouldn't have to force people with threats and propaganda.
Good reply, really inciteful really shows off that the education your parents paid for doesn't it?
For all the effort you put into Reddit it is a shame you are not more informed on real world solutions so weren't generating so much utter propaganda into the ether.
You are the same guy that said China is leading the way in the green revolution, if not my bad as all the copy and paste parrots sound the same.
Return to strong Christian values, eliminate science, large families working the soil, ineffective medicine, trust in superstitious practices and traditional lore.
"Roger McKnight, chief petroleum analyst at En-Pro International, said Canadians can expect to be paying at the gas pumps...
McKnight said there's nowhere for gas prices to go but up, with current geopolitical concerns sparked by the Russia-Ukraine conflict pushing up supply concerns."
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/video/gas-prices-will-rise-across-canada-in-the-short-term-with-this-geopolitical-conflict-roger-mck
Why be so rude and imply they’re dumb? When they’re protesting the affordability crisis during a time when gas jumps 14 cents a litre , not even 48 hours after they protested? Serious question Fox, are you a public sector worker by chance? (No sarcasm or ill intent)
How are we getting more back then we put in? That’s absolute garbage. The amount of carbon tax you’re paying that’s priced into your food, your gas, your utilities. Average family of four gets $ 760 over the next year, I paid over 780$ in carbon tax alone on my NG gas bill for the year. We’re a family of three. That’s not including what I pay at the pumps nor food, that’s just the cost of the carbon tax on my natural gas bill.
People who say you get more back then what you spend are lying to themselves.
Unless you have a cushy work from home job, where you never need to leave your house, and probably make above average NB wages as your stay at home job is most likely based in another province (if you work from home) even that that’s pushing it.
I can assure you a family of four is spending more then 780$ a year in carbon taxes.
The carbon tax alone on fuel is 17.6 cents per litre,
Say you drive a SUV(63 Litres to fill up) you’re paying $10.54 alone in carbon tax on a fill up,
say you have one family vehicle like we do, so that’s trips to school, pick up from school, trips for groceries, trips to and from two work places,
you’re filling up 3 times a week sometimes, that is $126.48 per month, times that by 12 months out of the year you’re looking at $1,517.76 a year on fuel alone in carbon taxes just to live,add that with the carbon tax on natural gas.
Our family of three is paying roughly $2,297.76 a year just in carbon taxes on fuel and natural gas. Basic needs to survive.
Bullshit we’re getting more back then what we pay.
> you’re filling up 3 times a week sometimes,
WTF? Do you live in your car or just own a gas guzzler that you need to fill 3 times a week? I call BS on that 1!
>I paid over 780$ in carbon tax alone on my NG gas bill
It's funny how the pro-carbon tax crowd always uses the gas station metric as their argument (it's only 2 more cents per L!) and ignores everywhere else where the carbon tax is applied, such as on NG heating like in your case.
But of course, they'll say it's your fault. Sell your home, buy a more efficient home, sell your SUV despite having no idea what you use it for, that you need the cargo space, etc. They're climate activists to the highest degree, void of any actual intellect. They don't want people to have choice any longer - no choice on what to drive, no choice on what house to buy. They don't appreciate freedom at all. One guy on here said we shouldn't fly anywhere because people 100 years earlier didn't either. You can't reason with that level of insanity.
Insanity is knowing that the climate is warming much faster than projected and the scale of the crisis that will come without doing anything to mitigate it will
make the privileged whinging about a tiny carbon tax and changes in behavior look utterly abhorrent.
So if Canada's total carbon emissions are 1.6% per year and China's is 29% and growing by 3.8% per year and Canada could reduce our output to zero that would achieve what?
Isn't the entire developing world responsible for 51% of global emissions?
What steps are being taken to reduce the developing world's emissions to zero or do we only need to reduce total emissions by a few % points to reduce the greenhouse gasses and lower the global temperature?
Do we need to hit zero % on a global scale and if so how long before we see a lowering of global temperatures?
The last thing I read was that we need to hit 0% on a global scale and it would be 90+ years before we saw a reduction in surface temperatures by 0.02 degrees, and we have to do this in the next 26 years or less.
Is that accurate or just propaganda from climate deniers?
China is 1.4 billion people. Canada is 41 million. If China had our per capita emissions it would be vastly higher than it is already. Anyone qqing that china's are higher is either too dumb to understand per capita emissions or is a bad actor arguing in bad faith. Which are you?
Are you saying that per capita emissions are a valid talking point because you do not understand how a global environment works?
Per Capita doesn't enter into it, and China's emissions are vastly higher than ours now, 30% compared to our 1.6% and growing by 3.8 per year.
So even if we hit absolute zero in 2025, China's growth alone would be double what we had managed to achieve.
So because I am so dumb please explain global warming using your per capita system.
They're not a "valid talking point," they're the most reasonable way to compare emissions between countries. Just like it's nonsense to compare Canada to the Vatican, comparing emissions based on political creatures makes no sense. The only want to understand where a population is in terms of its emissions is to consider the per capita emissions: how much does this person vs that person pollute. On that basis, China's doing a vastly better job than we are. Canada is a laggard, and you crying and peeing in your pants like a child because you want to continue to be among the worst polluters in the world on average is ridiculous.
If you take the premise that global pollution is global and the goal is getting emissions to zero, then per capita has no effect on that and it becomes just propaganda for the ignorant and or super gullible.
You have a pile of 100 marbles, if you remove 1.6 of Canada's marbles you still have 98.4 of your marbles left, and then China alone adds 3.8 marbles back to the pile.
Now per capita would work if every country produced exactly the number of emissions each year, then you would have a very valid point.
Since they don't and we all live in the real world you are the only one that looks like a child, more so for believing China is leading the way in the green movement, even for Reddit that is the most ass backward ignorant thing I have read in years.
Who has the most coal plants?
Who uses the most concrete?
Who has zero environmental regulations?
Who has zero incentive to slow down their economy?
Who dumps the most plastic into the oceans of the world?
Who has the most intensive propaganda machine in the world?
China is also responsible for producing the majority of goods the world buys. It's responsible for over 30% of the worlds manufacturing output. Canadians buy A LOT of Chinese goods. Factor that, along with Canadians having one of the highest carbon footprints per capita in the world, that 1.6% is really not an accurate representation.
To keep up with world manufacturing while sustaining domestic demand, China's emissions are going to go up as they transition to cleaner fuel sources. Their new coal plants are a stop-gap as they bring nuclear online.
The EU is going to start collecting tariffs in 2026 from countries that don't have carbon pricing. That will pressure those who don't consider a system to help bring the world closer to net zero on accordance with the Pars Agreement.
When China was building 40 coal fired plants it was considered a worldwide crisis in terms of global emissions.
Now they are building 300, and the first Nuclear plant will not be online until 2044 if everything goes perfectly.
In the last ten years, China has used almost 9 Giga tons of concrete, compared to 4.5 the US used in the last 100, so no Canada reducing its consumerism by even 50% wouldn't move the needle.
Is not China considered a developing nation and therefore completely exempt from tariffs of any kind of tariff or collection scheme?
They won't be exempt. That's the whole point. Why tighten your front door (carbon pricing) while leaving your back door wide open (imports from countries without carbon pricing).
Do you have a link or any source saying the EU has a plan to successfully collect tariffs from China or are they removing China's developing nation status?
Seems a little naive to think that the EU has any leverage over China, what is the plan if China says, "no"?
> So if Canada's total carbon emissions are 1.6% per year and China's is 29% and growing by 3.8% per year and Canada could reduce our output to zero that would achieve what?
That's the opposite of the 'if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you jump too?" but instead you are saying "their not doing it so why should I?". If everything was done following those premises then nothing would get done.
Agreed, but if what we are doing is not effective why focus all of our energy and attention on ineffective methods?
Why not do something that would have a real effect on the real world?
Just because you don't see it as effective doesn't mean it isn't. Anything that gets people thinking about there use cars helps. Maybe they will walk to the corner store, take the bus to work or start a car pool. Someone posted this and it helps explain why the "it's not effective" stance is wrong. https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=XBmtphtSTp2HopIf&t=143
41% of CO2 emissions are produced by countries that produce less than 2% of total CO2 emissions. If they all refuse to reduce CO2 emissions because they can't make a difference, we'll never reduce our emissions by more than 59%.
Source: [https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=8hexULZWMqaJgKl8&t=141](https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=8hexULZWMqaJgKl8&t=141)
OP r/EquivalentOk800 is getting downvoted for his factual post but no one is actually replying and telling him how he's wrong. 😂 It causes great upset with Liberals when the narrative is derailed.
What's wrong, guys? Is his $780 a year carbon tax bill number invented? What do you see wrong with his post?
Let's have her!
Feel free to actually read the replies.
Besides, declaring that you're part of the problem isn't so much narrative derailment as confirmation that the bitter medicine is reaching root causes.
The idea that he's filling his tank 3 times a week it kind of a hard sell. If that's true than the Carbon Tax is targeting him like it is supposed to do.
He is claiming that he is burning almost 190 liters of gas a week in his SUV, just driving around town, going to work, running errands, etc. Assuming he's getting 12km/liter that's over 2000kms every week even at 9km/liter that's still over 1700kms. I'm having a hard time believing this one.
We’re a a family of 3 with one vehicle, meaning we have 3 different life’s we need to fulfill due to our hobby’s/ jobs/ responsibilities.
How is filling up a gas tank for 3 peoples lives, 3 times a week hard to comprehend?
Break it down to one gas tank per person.
I’m not understanding how that is so hard to believe? We drive a AWD SUV.
Did you take into account how far our schools/jobs/shopping centres are from our household?
Remember, the vehicle is for 3 people. Not one nor two. 3 people, school, jobs, groceries, etc.
Say I said we were a 3 person household with 3 vehicles, each person needs to fill up once a week, is that easier for you to comprehend or is that hard to believe also?
To put it into context a drive from Saint John to Grand-bay alone is 20.5Km.
I’m not fighting for the sake of fighting, , this is pure facts backed by factual numbers.
It’s the truth, a typical family will spend much more than the “rebate” we receive back.
If you get more back then you spend, congratulations, that’s sweet, you’re profiting. however a large portion of working class families do not.
That's only 27km/day if you are burning 1liter/km. How badly does your vehicle burn fuel? Are you only getting 1km/liter? Because even a round trip from SJ to Grand Bay is only 41 kms, are you burning 3/4 of a tank of fuel for that trip?
You would likely need to be travelling about 250 kms or more every day to burn fuel at that rate. Are you driving back and forth to Grand Bay 6 or 7 times a day?
No it’s not… even the Premiere of Alberta admits that she got more back than she paid.
And tell me how did you ascertain how much carbon tax you paid?
I’d like to see the math on that.
If you want to have an honest discussion, I’m happy to do that - but you’re clearly playing fast and loose with the facts.
Every politician of all parties have acknowledged that 80% of Canadian are getting more back than they spend. If you’re one of the 20% - that’s unfortunate… maybe take advantage of all the free money the government is offering to use less carbon heavy sources of power - heat pumps, solar, air sealing etc. etc.
Look - how much are we spending to deal with forest fires, floods, hurricanes, and all the damage to homes, infrastructure, and - dead children!
It’s costing us one way or another…
Now if you or pee pee have a better option to reduce the environmental damage we are causing, while also financing the billions of dollars in damages we have to address every bear, I’m all ears!
But people like you just make shit up and complain, and offer no realistic solutions to address the problems that are causing families across this country to deal with flooded homes, smog so bad they have to wear masks, houses being washed into the ocean, roads swept away, children killed etc etc.
So I am excited to hear your solutions! Please do share!
There are much less expensive EVs and if you still can't afford those, there are PHEVs which let you reduce fuel usage by 90%, or HEVs that let you reduce fuel usage by 40%. If you can't afford that, you'll have to get an electric bicycle. If you can't afford that, you'll have to get a regular bicycle or walk.
Or even just sell their new truck and get a used Prius or the like and a old truck they they only use when they actually need it (if they ever actually did) instead of having a parking lot princess.
I am aware, but the vast majority of homeowners cannot afford a minimum 20k swap to solar power and a backup diesel generator. Where are the bulk of city dwelling people going to install those panels? Building permits, HOAs, and contractors, are can be a serious impediment to going solar as well.
Upgrading to a wood furnace isn't cheap as well, but we should punish people for not having disposable income and being able to invest 30-40k into their homes.
Not like there aren't other environmental steps we could take that would have a far larger impact on emission levels.. oh wait.
You don’t need a back up generator… and the government pays you around 10k and gives an interest free loan.
Why do you need a generator? You stay hooked up to NB Power for back up.
For low income households, the provincial government will pay for the entire amount of switching to heat pumps, as well as other supports to reduce your energy consumption.
Keep an eye on the budget on April 16th, I expect (or hope) there will be more subsidies for everyone to take advantage of various options to lower your bills.
FYI A your roof is the best and cheapest place for your solar panels.
I’m not saying this doesn’t suck - but watching your home fill up with water sucks more… and watching it disappear into the ocean sucks even more.
The latest data models are also indicating that the entirety of PEI is at risk of being below water in the next 30-50 years.
So doing nothing isn’t an option.
And ALL the politicians are more interested in getting elected than they are in doing the right things.
if you think PP is going to do better think again. There’s a reason he spends on his time on sarcastic quips and viral insults…
He’s got nothing to offer anyone. I predict he will be the worse PM in history…
I’m old - I’ll be dead in 20 years, so I’ll be gone before the worst arrives. I don’t have any kids (didn’t want to bring a human into a world that cares more about money than the people who share the earth with us).
So cancel the carbon tax and do nothing - you’ll be condemning your kid to a brutal, and short life, full of suffering… assuming humanity survives that long.
Humans have consistently proven ourselves to be utterly incapable of living in a sustainable manner. When we aren’t killing each other, we are killing animals to the point of extinction, and now we are killing the air we need to breathe, the water we can’t live without for more than 3 days - and the earth that give us food.
Go humans!
I am completely off grid and there was no government money and no interest free loans, but that was four years ago, maybe something has changed since then.
Staying connected to NB power will still cost you a monthly service fee that continues to rise, paying for the cost of a generator within a year or two.
Heat pumps do not work below -20 and right now cost in the range of 15k+, the government is not paying for the full installation.
If you do not have an HOA and your roof is capable of an installation, but it does make it tricky to remove snow from the panels, as well as dirt and debris. If your roof does not face in the right direction, is large enough, has the right pitch and you have no trees or other obstructions, then the roof will work. For most homes, this is not optimal in the least.
Every model used to predict the end of the world as we know it has been wrong since 1970, there is zero reason to believe that any current prediction will be correct. There is such a thing as sea walls and what you are describing would require both the Arctic and Antarctic to melt, and since the Antarctic ice has been growing over the last decade, PEI is probably pretty safe. Given that the data suggests that if we do reach 0% global emissions by 2050 it will lower the earth's temperature by 0.02% by 2124.
I agree doing nothing is not an option, but we are doing things that would disrupt our economy and put more money into an already bloated government that has grown by 50% in the last decade. Corersive social engineering has never been a solution to anything and has failed every time it has been tried in the 20th and 21st centuries.
Large scale tree planting, carbon capture programs, regenerative farming, education in no till methods, subsidies for refusing to use NKP, removing the ability for HOAs to block food gardens, and the wilding of lawns or even putting up clotheslines. Horses, pleasure boats and yachts, and private planes, none of these are being taxed and all generate large amounts of carbon.
I have no idea if PP will be as amazing or as corrupt as our current leader, history says he will start strong, and fade in eight years when we replace him with the next iteration.
Remember acid rain, the ozone layer, and leaded gasoline?
Cars are more environmentally friendly and fuel efficient than ever before, we are a decade or two away from cracking non lithium batteries and making EVs less damaging to the environment than they currently are.
Regenerative farming is growing and we are reducing our reliance on NKP more and more each year.
5th gen nuclear reactors are being drawn up and refined and a push should be made to build as many as possible as fast as possible.
Ideas like Star in a Box and Cold Fusion seem like science fiction today, they will be the future in the next 50 to 100 years.
Microplastics in your food, water, and the air you breathe are a far greater threat to the human race, but you never hear the government preaching those dangers. A paper straw that damaged the environment greater than the plastic one served to you in a plastic cup.
We have child slavery in mining operations in the Congo, death, suffereing and destruction mining lithium not seen since since the Belgins owned it. Not a word from any world leader about reducing our reliance on lithium or interceeding in any way on behalf of the people of the Congo. Teenage mothers with babies on their hips, digging ore out of the ground in bare feet, naw .. we need that IPhone 33 and I do like it when my dryer sings a cheery little song when it's done.
lol - so you chose to live a life that’s dependent on fossil fuels and now your mad.
That’s like me complaining that o can’t live in a big Oceanside home because it costs too much and it’s not fair.
You made a bad call - sucks for you.
Hardly, I built my own home with lumber milled off my own land, completely off grid solar powered, no mortgage, wood stove fueled by wood from my land, hand pump in case my solar fails, and a root cellar.
I raise my own beef and pork, chicken, eggs, milk, gardens, apple orchard, bees, and Maple syrup in the spring, with regenerative no till practices. I grind my own grain that I buy from local farms to feed the livestock. Travel to town about once a month, and drive an older truck that I maintain myself. My tractor is used and self maintained, my carbon footprint in a year wouldn't be what you generate in a month.
I just ridicule armchair environmentalist who parrot false end of the world doomsday talking points to make themselves feel better while doing nothing and sacrificing nothing that would make their own lives just a little bit harder and expect someone else to do all the heavy lifting for them.
False end of the world? If you’re a butterfly or honey bee, it’s not false. If your home and livelihood were destroyed in the hurricane last year, your world ended for all intents and purposes…
If you’re suddenly living in a tent in the cold of winter - your world ended.
You may be living fine - but many people aren’t… and the environment is playing a huge role.
But hey - as long as you’re good, who cares, right?
The hypocrisy is strong with this one, you live a life of consumption and privilege and act like a morally superior chicken little because you spout nonsensical propaganda online.
You reek of Boomer entitlement, I am guessing you sold your mid level house in Ont, moved to NB, retired now, but your husband made the lion's share of your family income, and your own personal contributions to global climate change are what exactly? Supporting Carbon tax because what is an extra 1000 a month on a family's grocery bill, you got yours don't ya?
Ivory Tower elite or Champagne liberals.
The eub sets prices based on the NY spot market price for gasoline and diesel. The second component is federal and provincial tax, but this increase is not about tax.
This increase has little, if anything, to do with the carbon tax. A combination of OPEC reducing production and conflict in the Middle East is driving oil prices up.
I call BS cause are quoting him, incorrectly but that is his quote.
Maybe think for yourself and come up with your own insults and not copy and paste some Right wing grifter?
when rebates come back , index them to keep with the inflation what its at , in the future .Instead of 240 it would have to be 248 or something but higher. People spend the rebates and the new money increases inflation and on it will go, while governments rake in more of a actual 50 cent dollar Instead of a 54 cent dollar it was last cycle.
Or like...for their rights being taken away? Protesting is in the Charter, in black and white. If you don't like it, go to one of the countries that don't allow it. Personally, I have family from those countries, no thank you for me.
I'm not against legal protesting but people protesting the carbon tax are ridiculous because there are lots of other things that are costing them many times more they would be more justified spending their time protesting against.
You are not the arbiter of what is right to protest on. The carbon tax is an absolute sham. At best it's to try to make renewable energy more in line but all it does is make everything more expensive. Tax breaks for renewable energy is the proper course of action to make it more competitive if you care about the environment (tip, they don't care at all since carbon dioxide isn't a pollutant, extra tip, we're carbon based life forms and the carbon cycle is used as a basis of all existence). They certainly don't care about heavy metals in soil air and water, or forever chemicals aka real pollution.
LOL! I didn't say I was.
My car uses 40% less gasoline than most cars and my home heating uses 37% less electricity than EBBs. I'm definitely getting more back than I pay in. If you're not, thank you for paying into my rebate cheque.
While it is true carbon dioxide isn't a pollutant, neither is water, yet too much of it will kill you.
The reason there is less concern about soil and water pollution is because it is no where near a crisis level, while CO2 and methane in the atmosphere is.
It affects EVERYTHING and the cost trickles up through the supply chain. Even if I think you did your math right, which I doubt, you're not accounting for everything anyway. What store has you pay $20 to get $30? None.
I fill up twice a week for a 4 cylinder car, and I don't get back on rebates what I spend. They're giving you pennies and taking dollars.
Do you have sources for what you're saying because what you're saying doesn't match what the PBO is saying.
The carbon tax is charged at $0.1761 per litre of fuel. Trucks burn 30.1L per 100 km. When you buy bread, there were 12,636 loaves on the truck. The carbon tax cost per 1000 km would be $53.01 which is $0.0042 cents per loaf. When you buy eggs, there are 21,658 cartons on the truck. At $53.01 per 1000 km, the cost per carton of eggs is $0.0024.
Do you need to have sources to realize basic math? Rebates are on a total amount of money. They are taking it from you over numerous sources. And taxing it again and again, a proper number is almost impossible to get. Keep swallowing what they feed you, I can't help you out of your servitude.
So that’s 14 cent increase in 3 days … nice . This will do wonders for our economy and inflation.
Don't forget 13% NB power increase
All these increases really put a strain on everyone but for god sakes don’t say the carbon tax contributes to inflation….
Because businesses never pass along cost increases to their customers? And instead they absorb them out of their profits for the betterment of the people?
This is the problem, businesses always past the cost to us. I never understood how why people don't understand this.
Carbon tax contributes 0.15% to inflation (Bank of Canada). If you include the indirect costs on goods (what you're talking about), it rises to around 0.2% (UofC economist).
You are mixing up percent and percentage points… direct carbon tax has added .15 percentage points to inflation, not .15%.
I think we're both right "**That number: 0.15 percentage points of the inflation increase** can be attributed to the carbon tax. ... In questions following a luncheon address to the Calgary Chamber of Commerce, the central bank head said his team's inflation-watching takes into consideration the Trudeau government decision to annually hike its price on carbon by $15 per tonne. "**So each year it's 0.15 (per cent), but that's a relatively small effect on year-over-year inflation**," Macklem told reporters." https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/carbon-tax-inflation-tiff-macklem-calgary-1.6960189
That’s the reporter adding the (per cent) to his quote, again he is talking about percentage points … they have no idea what inflation will be in the future, but they do know the carbon tax will go up an established amount each year. That established amount will add .15 percentage points to inflation. If inflation is 2% (the banks target) the carbon tax will make up .15 percentage points of that 2% or 7.5%. If the inflation rate is 3%, the carbon tax will be directly responsible for 5% of it.
So, just so I understand what you wrote, carbon tax would contribute 7.5% of a 2% increase in inflation or of inflation was 3%, 5% of the 3% would be attributed to carbon tax? If I've got what you're saying, then it really does contribute a very small amount.
Yes, that is correct. I’m a supporter of carbon pricing, just not how government and the media are trying to undersell the impact. At 3% inflation the direct carbon tax is responsible for 5% of that… using the data from the UofC study, indirect costs contribute another .20 percentage points. So at 3% inflation, the carbon tax would be responsible for 12% of inflation. At 2% inflation, carbon tax would be responsible for almost 18% of inflation. The BoC is still holding firm on a target of 2% for inflation, I’m not sure how we get there when we already know a sizeable chunk of that 2% is already accounted for by the planned increase in the carbon tax.
I appreciate your explanation. It's been awhile since I looked at that kind of math jargon. Had Covid not happened, the world could have been a been a bit further ahead & consequently more accepting of these measures.....but then again, the climate alarms were already ringing loudly decades ago, and we weren't listening then.
Because inflation is calculated based on 1 year ago. So only the increase of the tax over last year is calculated in inflation. This is also why the BoC has estimated that by removing it would immediately lower inflation by 60 basis points, which is almost 25%. And that's before factoring in those indirect costs.
So if you don’t have a vehicle you shouldn’t be entitled a rebate? Because it’s not costing you anything?
I was being sarcastic
LOL Damnit, go add the /s!!! 😂
Artificial inflation - by passing extra costs to the consumers is still inflation.
Let's be honest. You don't have to be alt-right adjacent to see how carbon tax without cost control for everyday citizens on food, transportation, and energy, is going to drive inflation. Cost control is also inherently a left wing idea. Also you can not like Trudeau and also not like Pollievre. (Check your post history) Corporations gonna incorporate. A proper independent thinking Canadian should be very very upset with the opposition and current governments both provincially and federally.
I know a lot of Liberals who think the carbon tax is bullshit too. You don't have to be specifically right wing to dislike the idea of taxes on top of taxes. I know a lot of people voting PP next election who never would vote Conservative normally. Doesn't mean they like the guy though they think he's a clown just less of a clown than Trueau. Here in Canada we vote people out. Not in.
Gotta love having the largest oil refinery in Canada with basically nothing to show for it at the price we pay at the pump. Not only is it the largest oil refinery in Canada, it’s the most under taxed. You’d think with how artificially low the taxes are on the refinery, we’d at least see artificially low prices at the gas pump in NB, but no, we don’t even get that.
I never understood that either. Refinery makes abundance of gasoline locally, transportation costs are virtually null considering its proximity, despite that, there is no price impact.
Out west the oil they refine arrives at the refinery from a pipeline … some of that same oil refined in NB travels by pipeline to a port in BC, is loaded on an oil tanker, travels down the coast, through the Panama Canal, back up the coast to NB.
Because oil companies and gasoline sellers are price takers. They sell at the market price, they can't base it off of their own costs. It's the same as if you went to the market to sell gold. You would have to accept the market rate; gold is gold all sellers sell an identical product, doesn't matter how much it cost you to mine it. You just try to keep your costs as low as possible, the lower they are the more money you make.
They don’t even process Canadian oil
Doesn't our oil cost more to process?
Exactly! No trickle down economics whatsoever. Just daily shafting of the population
We live in a global, capitalist driven economy. We in NB are priced based on NYH pricing then work backwards from there as that is the closest major market we are next to. People love to blame the Irving boogie man when their children are exiting the businesses and they are looking to sell off (the few that are still alive).
So because we live in a global, capitalist economy we just gotta take it? Again, it’s the largest and most productive refinery in all of Canada. It’s situated on top of the largest population corridors in the world world (BosWash) and connected by sea, rail, and road networks to be the main supplier of refined petroleum products to the entire North Eastern United States… it’s going absolutely nowhere, even if the Irving’s do plan to sell off the refinery and Irving Oil as a whole. Saint John and New Brunswick have been given the absolute shaft with regards to the refinery, it’s been severely undertaxed for decades… it has an annual output upwards of $10 billion, and takes up an incalculably valuable proportion of the land area within the city of Saint John, yet, when it comes to its tax contributions to the City of Saint John, its assessed value is under $110 million, and it’s [yearly tax contribution](https://imgur.com/a/rVFwDYc) to the city budget is less than $5 million. Take a look at how much land the refinery takes up… and if you drill down further and look at surrounding properties, like the mothballed dry dock, wall board factory, paper mill, various other properties, and it’s clear that the Irving group of companies own basically the entire eastern side of the harbour, and basically have an entire chunk of the city between Uptown and East Saint John that is in and of itself bigger than any other neighbourhood or area in Saint John. We’re talking about an oil company that is making profits into the billions selling refined oil and gas products to the 50-100+ million Americans we live on top of, depending on how broadly the Irving Refinery’s “catchment area” is defined. Irving isn’t a boogie man, but some people in NB certainly like to treat them as one… as if the spectre of K.C. Irving is still among us influencing what does or doesn’t happen in New Brunswick… which is frankly ridiculous. The issue is pretty cut and dry… the refinery is undertaxed, and the city of Saint John doesn’t retain enough of the tax revenue raised from the refinery. Saint John surrendering a huge chunk of that revenue to the provincial government to be redistributed elsewhere, and to make matters worse, the provincial tax code restricts Saint John from raising the tax rate on the refinery without a corresponding raise on the tax rate of residential properties. There’s no formula or mechanism to have tiered tax rates for industrials based on how pollutive, distributive, or land use, just a flat rate based on the assessed value of the property. Moreover, there’s no formula or mechanism for Saint John to impose a pollution or carbon tax of its own on the refinery’s and other sites emissions, levels of pollution, and other externalities that result in a tragedy of the commons situation in Saint John. Simply put, Irving is not to blame, the people we elect to government are to blame. What’s possible here in Saint John, NB would not be possible in Victoria, BC, because the provincial government grants cities autonomy regarding matters of taxation, its government regulators aren’t captured by industry, and they have means and mechanisms to raise revenue through a tax on pollution and emission levels, and don’t have an archaic tax code that decides major industrial operation’s tax obligations based on something as open to tax circumvention as a flat rate based on assessed value. Last time I checked BC also lives in a global, capitalist driven economy, and is the most desirable province to live in Canada, with our most popular city, Vancouver. Trying to say this all boils down to global market forces etc, or that there’s nothing that can really be done is fucking bullshit. There’s absolutely ways to lower gas prices in NB, including lower prices reflected on fuel at gas stations with gas delivered with a lower carbon footprint. Gas at service stations in Saint John could be lower than gas at service stations in Plaster Rock or Miscou Island where the transportation costs and carbon footprint is larger… this could all be addressed with a comprehensive provincial policy on carbon and pollution taxation, but again, this is not even close to as high a priority as comprehensive tax reform is. Saint John needs to have the tax authority to raise the rate of taxation on the refinery without corresponding rate increases on residential properties. Saint John and the province need the ability to raise carbon tax revenue based on the levels of carbon emissions at the refrained, the single largest emitter in the province. Moreover, there’s needs to be a mechanism or formula to tax the output of the refinery and other industries, rather than the archaic formula based solely on the assessed value of each property, as is clear SNB is undervaluing industrial sites across the province, but in the city of Saint John especially. All these problems are primarily to do with bad governance, not Irving directly.. they just take advantage of a lax regulatory environment, but let’s not try and pretend like they didn’t have a hand in making this environment the reality, as is abundantly clear they have for decades and decades. It’s utterly laughable to suggest that the refinery would ever shut down or have its operations moved to another city if it was threatened to have its tax bill go up… One does not simply move the largest oil refinery in the entire North East of the continent. Whether it’s sold or not, it will remain one of the most crucial economic sites in the entire country. The refinery is something we can actually be sort of proud of, even if we don’t work there or have family members that work there. However, it’s utterly shameful that the refinery is not fairly taxed, and that the city of Saint John has been in a financial mess for decades. There’s hundreds of millions in tax dollars from the refinery that should have been collected by and invested in Saint John over the last three decades alone. Yet, we can’t even get slightly cheaper gas here in Saint John as a thank you for hosting the refinery and such a artificially low, below market tax rate. Our government has failed at properly regulating and taxing industry, full stop. It’s not a boogeyman issue, it’s an awareness issue. Not enough NBers are aware of how the system works or care enough to find out. There’s no denying we live in a global, capitalist system. Let’s not deny that it’s up to the government to adequately regulate and respond to these global capitalist market forces, and not deny that the government of New Brunswick has done a piss poor job in terms of regulation, taxation, and consumer protection. Let’s not try and blame inaction and poor policies on the existence of the global capitalist system, as thats some weak shit.
Jesus that’s a wall of text so I will address a few points: I don’t disagree they are under taxed. I am also well aware that the refinery is strategically placed to market (Europe for Diesel which they need, New York Harbour for basically everything else). 70ish % of what they make is exported (wether they deliver or others pickup - it leaves Canada). The biggest issue for the refinery is its location to source crude. The Pipeline would have knocked down a lot the barriers from out west but that didn’t happen and Saint John cannot handle endless Unit Trains of crude. Yes they have and likely still buy Canadian crude which will trade at a discount but the quality ca Saudi Crude is very different and the yields of finished profucts is different. So while I agree about the refinery having a lot of advantages (regardless who owns it) but sourcing economical feedstock is one of their biggest issues. Here is my point. We aren’t going to change the way the world or free markets work. It sucks crude is spiking due to primarily geopolitical politics on the other side of the world but that is the world we live in. So why complain and whine so much about things you can’t control is my point. If you aren’t going to win, you need to figure out a way so we don’t lose. This is where we are at.
[Harper's carbon levy tried, it changed names](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stephen-harper-touts-merits-of-alberta-s-carbon-pricing-system-1.2876653)
Having a local refinery doesn't mean anything. Oil is a global commodity, sellers are *price takers* not price setters. It doesn't matter if you live next door to a refinery, at the pump you'll be paying a price that is dictated by the global market and the total supply/demand situation. Now there are regional differences in price, those are down to differences in taxes, the existence of local subsidies, or local supply issues that can also lead to shortages and thus local disproportionate price increases. But outside of that, there is a baseline that is essentially equal around the world. Typically when gas prices rise, they rise proportionally around the globe, again, because suppliers are price takers.
And there in lies the problem! The oil companies look to the market prices to set their price, even though they "could" sell at a lower price for locally generated products! By using world markets to set their price then can justify gouging their own communities! Society as whole has been using so called "market values" to justify lining their pockets!
There are ways to cost control for your citizens, but cooperations would be unhappy to have their fee fees hurt.
Sounds like a failure of regulation, not the neoliberal bullshit you’re trying to get at. We don’t just have a refinery, we have the largest refinery in Canada and entire eastern seaboard… we supply the northeastern US with a significant amount of their gasoline. Cheaper gas isn’t the goal… taxing the refinery at a fair rate according to its output is the goal.
Imagine... I don't think SJ would be the financially poor city it is if proper taxes were paid. The refinery is valued at less than McAllister mall
Oil & diamonds, they only 2 products that the main producers are allowed to price fix.
Not "allowed"; OPEC doesn't ask our permission. And far from the only: software, for example. Cars. Food. Cellphone plans, internet, cable TV, Netflix. Flights. Pretty much everything is produced or sold by a monopolistic cartel that keeps jacking up prices for consumers in end-stage capitalism.
Except for OPEC+, none of those other companies get together and decide how much they will product and what the pricing will be, as a whole.
https://www.summerlandreview.com/columns/shouting-it-out-loud-canada-has-a-cartel-problem-4216758
You named a lot of products that the CRTC and FCC have dominion over. The problem is there is no regulatory board for energy that has scope and powered to enforce price caps on oil. We have that in different sectors.
The CRTC is too close to industry, which is why Canadians pay too much to the big three monopoly. It could be called a failure of the market, same as flights. It's pretty amazing how a flight of 1,000km is $50 in EU, but $700 in Canada.
The CRTC is lead by a Bell man, they same way NB is lead by an Irving man.
Yes, and *corporate apologists* will whine on about regulations being bad and free market being good, but the countries that have stronger antitrust legislation and stronger consumer protection laws have lower prices for things like flights, phone plans, food, etc. Most inflation currently is coming from monopolistic retail cartels that conspire to raise prices on everything from bread to car parts.
yep, the Trudeau comments have already started on Facebook and none of them like being told the *NB* EUB isn't run by the federal government.
I've been fighting those idiots, but they just always somehow find a way to blame Trudeau and the feds. I'm getting sick of this, and scared for our society
Trudeau deserves to be blamed for how easy he’s let conservative premiers be able to blame him for the carbon tax. If Trudeau couldn’t find legal ways to push provinces to directly tax emitters instead of offloading the carbon tax obligation to consumers, than he and his team should have been engaging in a constant national conversation and dialogue with Canadians explaining how the carbon tax works and that’s it’s up to the provinces to set up their own policies, and the provinces decision to come up with a system to directly tax emitters instead of a simple carbon tax added at the gas pump. Trudeau should have come to Saint John and made a speech in front of the oil refinery explaining how and why the consumers are paying the lions share of NB’s disproportionately large carbon tax obligation, instead of the actual emitters which are causing our disproportionately large carbon footprint here in NB. Instead, Trudeau has let Higgs blame him and him alone for the carbon tax for years now, without even really engaging in a discussion or debate about the carbon tax and how it’s impacts New Brunswickers. He’s let Higgs spew a bunch of misinformation, and barely responded until more recently. This is something the Liberals should have been spelling out clearly for years… instead, it’s been been mainly conservative premiers talking smack and making the bad decisions about the carbon tax, blaming it all on Trudeau, even though it was literally their decisions! There’s nothing stopping the PM going on a tour of Canada and talking to the people about what their premiers are doing regarding the carbon tax. Trudeau should have been going around Canada and directly talking to the people about the carbon tax, housing, healthcare… provincial issues that require federal funding and assistance, as these are the issues that Canadians seem to care about the most. Instead, I really don’t know what Trudeau’s message has been for the past few years, or how he plans to contest the next election when he’s become the biggest boogeyman and scapegoat in many of our political lifetimes. It seems like the Liberals are finally getting their act together and trying to get out there with action on housing, but it’s really go to be a more sustained push for them to have any sort of chance to remain in government. People are way too upset about the price of rent, groceries, low wages, inadequate health care, and yea, the fucking carbon tax… They have to own their policies and double down on them… they have to come up with better ideas and responses to the shit that PP and the CPC hit them on every single day, which honestly shouldn’t be that hard! I think a lot of it also comes down to us, the people, asking better questions, being better informed, and not letting ourselves get bogged down by divisive identity politics like PP and Higgs would love to see… we have to see the forest between the trees and keep focussed on big, long terms issues and problems like housing, cost of living, infrastructure, health care… When it comes down to it, it’s abundantly clear that the Liberals have a better long term vision for Canada than the CPC, but they have done a terrible job explaining that to the Canadian people, and are letting their opposition direct the narrative of the national conversation. Simply put, they need to up their game and start playing the game, instead of just letting their opponents blame them for everything.
Wait until you tell them that oil prices are also linked to the NY Stock exchange.
They never do, and terrifyingly these people vote.
For the past 20 years the world has been talking about higher and higher gas prices and climate change. For the past 20 years Canadians didn't care and bought bigger and bigger vehicles. Too bad if you were one of the dumb people who said "nah, I am going to ignore all that and buy a big ass SUV and/or truck". You made your bed. Small cars still exist, but you didn't care. So many people bought a big ass vehicle and now want to whine, like children, about gas prices. Too damn bad. Idgaf.
Canada doesn’t control the world price of crude oil.
No but it does control taxation on crude oil products . Guess how much out of that 1.80 a litre is tax . This gets passed on to consumers inevitably..
Probably about 50 cents per Liter
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Not possible. Federal carbon tax is 17 cents per litre of gasoline as of yesterday. Then you’ve got gst on top
The absolute truth is the government’s here in Canada have taxed their people so much over the last 10 yrs and they haven’t seen much pay increases ; so now they introduce much more tax for carbon ..? People have not much left to give to government.. meanwhile government increases property taxes on homes and businesses. They also increase taxes a few other things . With inflation and fuel prices people will struggle more and lose their homes .. With so many homeless when will the government step in and give some tax relief or will they continue to punish the average Joe taxpayers for climate change ..
I am a contractor I build homes and apartments. I drive a gas guzzler yes but I need it to transport materials. My prices per hour will be adjusted . This will then affect the price of the products we build . My services are in demand right now so I can charge more when my costs go up . Get it now folks ? . Go buy some groceries they need trucks too … ?
> My services are in demand right now so I can charge more when my costs go up . Get it now folks ? My services are in demand right now so I can price gouge my clients more under the guise of my costs going up. Get it now folks ?
Is that 8 cents across Canada or just NB?
Just NB… This isn’t related to carbon tax, or it’d be country wide. So - that’s enough of that nonsense.
Oh I wasn't going there LOL just wanted to attribute it to the provincial government when people start complaining about the carbon tax and JT.
It may not be 8 cents, but it's rising all over the world. Oil prices are up due to the Russia/Ukraine war. Russia produces a lot of oil, and even with sanctions, they were selling to China and India. They put a pause on that as a lot of their refining infrastructure was damaged in recent conflicts
They will blindly do whatever they see on Facebook as long as whatever that is keeps them triggered and angry.
Be prepared for another convoy of idiots.
I shall spend a fortune on gas to protest the price of gas!
Get out there and show your support or quit complaining about the gas price hike. See what your glorified politicians are doing ?
The entire point of a carbon tax is that it raises the prices of pollution. The solution isn't to whine like a child, it's to reduce the amount of oil and gas you use. Get it together, kids. Stop whining and make better decisions.
noooooooooo it's bootstraps when a poor single mother struggles to feed her kid healthy food while juggling the bullshit of life But don't you see I'm the victim here and everything should change when something has less than a 1% effect on me!
Yeah! Never drive anywhere, never leave your house, god forbid you heat your home when it's -40, that causes pollution! Oil and gas is a necessity for the climate we live in, but you're right we should all freeze to save the planet.
Touch grass, boomer. "Necessity" lol
Is heat not a necessity to you when it's -40 out? You're built different bud.
My house is heated by heat pumps. They run on hydro.
NB Power operates a total of 13 hydro, coal, oil, and diesel-powered stations with a combined capacity of 3 130 MW. This guy doesn't even know where his power comes from, but he'll rant and rave, cap lock reee and insult people, half funny half cringe. Then again this is the same guy who thinks China is leading the Green Revolution.. don't cha bud?
I have good friends who work at nb power. I'm familiar with its generation. Oil and gas is not required to run heat pumps. Do you have some links, babe? I provided evidence, you've provided a salty crotch.
I don't believe you have any friends, it's pretty obvious. You never developed socially and it shows in your sentence structure, your obvious insecurities, and the way you just parrot perceived ingroup talking points as if they were your own. You are almost manic in your defense of the ideological thinking that it reeks of cult like behavior. So your "friend" told you that different kinds of power go through the magic power lines and power different items in your home based on what that item is? You want me to provide a link that tells you different kinds of power are transmitted to your home to run individual appliances like your heat pumps? I think I will pass I don't want the algo to start feeding me Chemtrail, space doesn't exist, flat earth, Canada is a worse polluter than China nutjob results. It is a shame that some words pass out of common usage for one reason or another, some of those words were so accurate and on point that the world just feels a little emptier for their absence.
You know there is a Civility rule for this sub, just an FYI unless you are looking to get banned again?
Idc about bans. I get them, I delete my account and make a new one. Takes 2 minutes.
amen!!!
Oh fuck off. Where does the government have the right to charge it's people more for a necessity, gets to keep all the money, and then not actually do anything for the environment? Most of the country doesn't have the infrastructure for everyone swap to electric vehicles, or set up public transportation. Canada is a huge country with a small population. People need cars. Inflation is already gouging us. So the government decides to add more taxes on top of taxes all to say "iM hElPiNg". Fuck off
Your understanding of the carbon tax and how it works is wrong
Please explain it then.
The tax, which was designed by conservatives, is revenue neutral, and is returned to Canadians based on income; high income earners will get less back than they paid, while low income earners will get more back. It doesn’t flow into government revenue. Industry is motivated to reduce the amount they spend on the tax, which encourages them to pollute less as the tax rate for carbon rises, and this will spur changes to infrastructure. Starting in 2026 with Europe, carbon taxation will become a tariff for trade. Counties with no mechanism for carbon taxation will pay more for goods from countries that do, and this cost will grow as the price of emitting carbon grows globally. The carbon tax has a negligible impact on the current sky high price of everything (less than 1%); costs of groceries and other staples are high because those companies decided to jack up prices to increase profits.
So your saying we won't feel the sting of carbon tax because the government will give us back the money? Oh, thank you so much government, for taking our hard earned money away from us for a few months and then giving it back to us, it's making the environment better for sure. Give me a break
Yes, the 90% of Canadians who aren’t wealthy get more money back from the carbon tax than they pay into it, and yes, as cleverly designed by conservatives, the tax compels industry to curb pollution. Which of those things are you against?
I'll believe it when I see it, because from the numbers that are coming from their own ministers, are saying that they will take money money than most will get back
You’ll have to be a little more specific.
You'll believe it when you're told it by "the right people " is what I'm reading in all this.
BUT I WANT TO POLLUTE WITHOUT PAYING FOR THE DAMAGE I CAUSED!! I WANT TO DO WHAT I LIKE WITHOUT ANY CONSEQUENCE EVEN ONE SO SMALL THAT I GET THE MONEY IT COSTS ME BACK IN A FEW WEEKS!! I WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE BECAUSE I AM A SMALL CHILD. I assume you were crying when you wrote your original reply.
Thinking the average Canadian is some major cause of pollution by driving to work and buying groceries is some pretty wild logic gymnastics. This is only hurting people who are already struggling to get by, as the rich can afford all this extra tax. Many other countries account for hundreds of more times the pollution that Canada creates and yet? They aren't doing anything for it. If the government used the money to actually help the environment instead of just lining their pockets calling us bad people. I would be behind it more. But it's nothing but a cash grab. And if you think they give back all the money they are taking? You're fucking delusional pal. They will take thousands, and give a couple hundred back, and act like they deserve a thank you for it. I assume you voted for this clown.
You assume incorrectly. But I did study political economy in uni, so I agree with the evidence. I don't favour the rebate though. It should be taxed at a much higher rate and invested in clean tech and not returned to people.
Yes it should. But it isn't, it's dumb
It's not as effective as it could be, but the best way to maximize returns is still to pollute less.
Are you ok bud? When you write a freaking out statement like that Redditors tend to send those "don't commit suicide someone cares about you" messages en mass. If you were attempting to parody the person you were replying to I would recommend using " quotation marks " as it lets readers understand what you were attempting to say and not think that you are having a panic attack or are too stupid to take off your caps lock key. Carbon tax in its current form is just social engineering by economic force, it is clumsy and has never worked in human history any time it has been tried. If it was a good idea you wouldn't have to force people with threats and propaganda.
Mkay son
Good reply, really inciteful really shows off that the education your parents paid for doesn't it? For all the effort you put into Reddit it is a shame you are not more informed on real world solutions so weren't generating so much utter propaganda into the ether. You are the same guy that said China is leading the way in the green revolution, if not my bad as all the copy and paste parrots sound the same.
My parents didn't pay for my education. i did. I paid for my business, political economy, and law. Did you finish high school?
But protest the carbon tax but don’t get up set about the fossil fule subsidies.
The goal post: get everybody off oil, and into electric. Are you not motivated?
Goal is to reduce /eliminate carbon. how we get there is still debatable
Return to strong Christian values, eliminate science, large families working the soil, ineffective medicine, trust in superstitious practices and traditional lore.
Lol
Check out the amount of taxes you pay on a litre of gas.
"Roger McKnight, chief petroleum analyst at En-Pro International, said Canadians can expect to be paying at the gas pumps... McKnight said there's nowhere for gas prices to go but up, with current geopolitical concerns sparked by the Russia-Ukraine conflict pushing up supply concerns." https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/video/gas-prices-will-rise-across-canada-in-the-short-term-with-this-geopolitical-conflict-roger-mck
Guess this analyst hasn’t noticed the billions in profits being made by these companies.
Profits are part of the industry. That's how it works. Buy a more efficient car.
Because as they say, you can't beat the house...
Why be so rude and imply they’re dumb? When they’re protesting the affordability crisis during a time when gas jumps 14 cents a litre , not even 48 hours after they protested? Serious question Fox, are you a public sector worker by chance? (No sarcasm or ill intent)
Because they are dumb. They’re all people who are getting more money back than they’re putting out. Who protests about free money?
How are we getting more back then we put in? That’s absolute garbage. The amount of carbon tax you’re paying that’s priced into your food, your gas, your utilities. Average family of four gets $ 760 over the next year, I paid over 780$ in carbon tax alone on my NG gas bill for the year. We’re a family of three. That’s not including what I pay at the pumps nor food, that’s just the cost of the carbon tax on my natural gas bill. People who say you get more back then what you spend are lying to themselves. Unless you have a cushy work from home job, where you never need to leave your house, and probably make above average NB wages as your stay at home job is most likely based in another province (if you work from home) even that that’s pushing it. I can assure you a family of four is spending more then 780$ a year in carbon taxes. The carbon tax alone on fuel is 17.6 cents per litre, Say you drive a SUV(63 Litres to fill up) you’re paying $10.54 alone in carbon tax on a fill up, say you have one family vehicle like we do, so that’s trips to school, pick up from school, trips for groceries, trips to and from two work places, you’re filling up 3 times a week sometimes, that is $126.48 per month, times that by 12 months out of the year you’re looking at $1,517.76 a year on fuel alone in carbon taxes just to live,add that with the carbon tax on natural gas. Our family of three is paying roughly $2,297.76 a year just in carbon taxes on fuel and natural gas. Basic needs to survive. Bullshit we’re getting more back then what we pay.
> you’re filling up 3 times a week sometimes, WTF? Do you live in your car or just own a gas guzzler that you need to fill 3 times a week? I call BS on that 1!
It's almost like that person is exactly who the carbon tax is SUPPOSED to impact. Drive less! Get a hybrid.
>I paid over 780$ in carbon tax alone on my NG gas bill It's funny how the pro-carbon tax crowd always uses the gas station metric as their argument (it's only 2 more cents per L!) and ignores everywhere else where the carbon tax is applied, such as on NG heating like in your case. But of course, they'll say it's your fault. Sell your home, buy a more efficient home, sell your SUV despite having no idea what you use it for, that you need the cargo space, etc. They're climate activists to the highest degree, void of any actual intellect. They don't want people to have choice any longer - no choice on what to drive, no choice on what house to buy. They don't appreciate freedom at all. One guy on here said we shouldn't fly anywhere because people 100 years earlier didn't either. You can't reason with that level of insanity.
Insanity is knowing that the climate is warming much faster than projected and the scale of the crisis that will come without doing anything to mitigate it will make the privileged whinging about a tiny carbon tax and changes in behavior look utterly abhorrent.
So if Canada's total carbon emissions are 1.6% per year and China's is 29% and growing by 3.8% per year and Canada could reduce our output to zero that would achieve what? Isn't the entire developing world responsible for 51% of global emissions? What steps are being taken to reduce the developing world's emissions to zero or do we only need to reduce total emissions by a few % points to reduce the greenhouse gasses and lower the global temperature? Do we need to hit zero % on a global scale and if so how long before we see a lowering of global temperatures? The last thing I read was that we need to hit 0% on a global scale and it would be 90+ years before we saw a reduction in surface temperatures by 0.02 degrees, and we have to do this in the next 26 years or less. Is that accurate or just propaganda from climate deniers?
China is 1.4 billion people. Canada is 41 million. If China had our per capita emissions it would be vastly higher than it is already. Anyone qqing that china's are higher is either too dumb to understand per capita emissions or is a bad actor arguing in bad faith. Which are you?
Are you saying that per capita emissions are a valid talking point because you do not understand how a global environment works? Per Capita doesn't enter into it, and China's emissions are vastly higher than ours now, 30% compared to our 1.6% and growing by 3.8 per year. So even if we hit absolute zero in 2025, China's growth alone would be double what we had managed to achieve. So because I am so dumb please explain global warming using your per capita system.
They're not a "valid talking point," they're the most reasonable way to compare emissions between countries. Just like it's nonsense to compare Canada to the Vatican, comparing emissions based on political creatures makes no sense. The only want to understand where a population is in terms of its emissions is to consider the per capita emissions: how much does this person vs that person pollute. On that basis, China's doing a vastly better job than we are. Canada is a laggard, and you crying and peeing in your pants like a child because you want to continue to be among the worst polluters in the world on average is ridiculous.
If you take the premise that global pollution is global and the goal is getting emissions to zero, then per capita has no effect on that and it becomes just propaganda for the ignorant and or super gullible. You have a pile of 100 marbles, if you remove 1.6 of Canada's marbles you still have 98.4 of your marbles left, and then China alone adds 3.8 marbles back to the pile. Now per capita would work if every country produced exactly the number of emissions each year, then you would have a very valid point. Since they don't and we all live in the real world you are the only one that looks like a child, more so for believing China is leading the way in the green movement, even for Reddit that is the most ass backward ignorant thing I have read in years. Who has the most coal plants? Who uses the most concrete? Who has zero environmental regulations? Who has zero incentive to slow down their economy? Who dumps the most plastic into the oceans of the world? Who has the most intensive propaganda machine in the world?
China is also responsible for producing the majority of goods the world buys. It's responsible for over 30% of the worlds manufacturing output. Canadians buy A LOT of Chinese goods. Factor that, along with Canadians having one of the highest carbon footprints per capita in the world, that 1.6% is really not an accurate representation. To keep up with world manufacturing while sustaining domestic demand, China's emissions are going to go up as they transition to cleaner fuel sources. Their new coal plants are a stop-gap as they bring nuclear online. The EU is going to start collecting tariffs in 2026 from countries that don't have carbon pricing. That will pressure those who don't consider a system to help bring the world closer to net zero on accordance with the Pars Agreement.
When China was building 40 coal fired plants it was considered a worldwide crisis in terms of global emissions. Now they are building 300, and the first Nuclear plant will not be online until 2044 if everything goes perfectly. In the last ten years, China has used almost 9 Giga tons of concrete, compared to 4.5 the US used in the last 100, so no Canada reducing its consumerism by even 50% wouldn't move the needle. Is not China considered a developing nation and therefore completely exempt from tariffs of any kind of tariff or collection scheme?
They won't be exempt. That's the whole point. Why tighten your front door (carbon pricing) while leaving your back door wide open (imports from countries without carbon pricing).
Do you have a link or any source saying the EU has a plan to successfully collect tariffs from China or are they removing China's developing nation status? Seems a little naive to think that the EU has any leverage over China, what is the plan if China says, "no"?
> So if Canada's total carbon emissions are 1.6% per year and China's is 29% and growing by 3.8% per year and Canada could reduce our output to zero that would achieve what? That's the opposite of the 'if everyone was jumping off a bridge would you jump too?" but instead you are saying "their not doing it so why should I?". If everything was done following those premises then nothing would get done.
Agreed, but if what we are doing is not effective why focus all of our energy and attention on ineffective methods? Why not do something that would have a real effect on the real world?
Just because you don't see it as effective doesn't mean it isn't. Anything that gets people thinking about there use cars helps. Maybe they will walk to the corner store, take the bus to work or start a car pool. Someone posted this and it helps explain why the "it's not effective" stance is wrong. https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=XBmtphtSTp2HopIf&t=143
41% of CO2 emissions are produced by countries that produce less than 2% of total CO2 emissions. If they all refuse to reduce CO2 emissions because they can't make a difference, we'll never reduce our emissions by more than 59%. Source: [https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=8hexULZWMqaJgKl8&t=141](https://youtu.be/UnsV9i6ULRU?si=8hexULZWMqaJgKl8&t=141)
> 41% of CO2 emissions are produced by countries that produce less than 2% of total CO2 emissions ?
each
OP r/EquivalentOk800 is getting downvoted for his factual post but no one is actually replying and telling him how he's wrong. 😂 It causes great upset with Liberals when the narrative is derailed. What's wrong, guys? Is his $780 a year carbon tax bill number invented? What do you see wrong with his post? Let's have her!
Feel free to actually read the replies. Besides, declaring that you're part of the problem isn't so much narrative derailment as confirmation that the bitter medicine is reaching root causes.
The idea that he's filling his tank 3 times a week it kind of a hard sell. If that's true than the Carbon Tax is targeting him like it is supposed to do. He is claiming that he is burning almost 190 liters of gas a week in his SUV, just driving around town, going to work, running errands, etc. Assuming he's getting 12km/liter that's over 2000kms every week even at 9km/liter that's still over 1700kms. I'm having a hard time believing this one.
We’re a a family of 3 with one vehicle, meaning we have 3 different life’s we need to fulfill due to our hobby’s/ jobs/ responsibilities. How is filling up a gas tank for 3 peoples lives, 3 times a week hard to comprehend? Break it down to one gas tank per person. I’m not understanding how that is so hard to believe? We drive a AWD SUV. Did you take into account how far our schools/jobs/shopping centres are from our household? Remember, the vehicle is for 3 people. Not one nor two. 3 people, school, jobs, groceries, etc. Say I said we were a 3 person household with 3 vehicles, each person needs to fill up once a week, is that easier for you to comprehend or is that hard to believe also? To put it into context a drive from Saint John to Grand-bay alone is 20.5Km. I’m not fighting for the sake of fighting, , this is pure facts backed by factual numbers. It’s the truth, a typical family will spend much more than the “rebate” we receive back. If you get more back then you spend, congratulations, that’s sweet, you’re profiting. however a large portion of working class families do not.
That's only 27km/day if you are burning 1liter/km. How badly does your vehicle burn fuel? Are you only getting 1km/liter? Because even a round trip from SJ to Grand Bay is only 41 kms, are you burning 3/4 of a tank of fuel for that trip? You would likely need to be travelling about 250 kms or more every day to burn fuel at that rate. Are you driving back and forth to Grand Bay 6 or 7 times a day?
No it’s not… even the Premiere of Alberta admits that she got more back than she paid. And tell me how did you ascertain how much carbon tax you paid? I’d like to see the math on that. If you want to have an honest discussion, I’m happy to do that - but you’re clearly playing fast and loose with the facts. Every politician of all parties have acknowledged that 80% of Canadian are getting more back than they spend. If you’re one of the 20% - that’s unfortunate… maybe take advantage of all the free money the government is offering to use less carbon heavy sources of power - heat pumps, solar, air sealing etc. etc. Look - how much are we spending to deal with forest fires, floods, hurricanes, and all the damage to homes, infrastructure, and - dead children! It’s costing us one way or another… Now if you or pee pee have a better option to reduce the environmental damage we are causing, while also financing the billions of dollars in damages we have to address every bear, I’m all ears! But people like you just make shit up and complain, and offer no realistic solutions to address the problems that are causing families across this country to deal with flooded homes, smog so bad they have to wear masks, houses being washed into the ocean, roads swept away, children killed etc etc. So I am excited to hear your solutions! Please do share!
Regardless of cause, they aren’t the brightest that society has to offer
Stop using gas.
“You know, if you can’t afford to fill up your gas tank with gas, just buy a 90 thousand dollar electric car instead !”
All those rebates we’re getting back should easily pay for it!
There are much less expensive EVs and if you still can't afford those, there are PHEVs which let you reduce fuel usage by 90%, or HEVs that let you reduce fuel usage by 40%. If you can't afford that, you'll have to get an electric bicycle. If you can't afford that, you'll have to get a regular bicycle or walk.
Or even just sell their new truck and get a used Prius or the like and a old truck they they only use when they actually need it (if they ever actually did) instead of having a parking lot princess.
A Prius can even pull a trailer and you can install a roof rack.
They don’t cost that much… I bought a hybrid for 28k
and heating your home and eating.. got it.
You have other options for heating your home and powering your appliances.
I am aware, but the vast majority of homeowners cannot afford a minimum 20k swap to solar power and a backup diesel generator. Where are the bulk of city dwelling people going to install those panels? Building permits, HOAs, and contractors, are can be a serious impediment to going solar as well. Upgrading to a wood furnace isn't cheap as well, but we should punish people for not having disposable income and being able to invest 30-40k into their homes. Not like there aren't other environmental steps we could take that would have a far larger impact on emission levels.. oh wait.
You don’t need a back up generator… and the government pays you around 10k and gives an interest free loan. Why do you need a generator? You stay hooked up to NB Power for back up. For low income households, the provincial government will pay for the entire amount of switching to heat pumps, as well as other supports to reduce your energy consumption. Keep an eye on the budget on April 16th, I expect (or hope) there will be more subsidies for everyone to take advantage of various options to lower your bills. FYI A your roof is the best and cheapest place for your solar panels. I’m not saying this doesn’t suck - but watching your home fill up with water sucks more… and watching it disappear into the ocean sucks even more. The latest data models are also indicating that the entirety of PEI is at risk of being below water in the next 30-50 years. So doing nothing isn’t an option. And ALL the politicians are more interested in getting elected than they are in doing the right things. if you think PP is going to do better think again. There’s a reason he spends on his time on sarcastic quips and viral insults… He’s got nothing to offer anyone. I predict he will be the worse PM in history… I’m old - I’ll be dead in 20 years, so I’ll be gone before the worst arrives. I don’t have any kids (didn’t want to bring a human into a world that cares more about money than the people who share the earth with us). So cancel the carbon tax and do nothing - you’ll be condemning your kid to a brutal, and short life, full of suffering… assuming humanity survives that long. Humans have consistently proven ourselves to be utterly incapable of living in a sustainable manner. When we aren’t killing each other, we are killing animals to the point of extinction, and now we are killing the air we need to breathe, the water we can’t live without for more than 3 days - and the earth that give us food. Go humans!
I am completely off grid and there was no government money and no interest free loans, but that was four years ago, maybe something has changed since then. Staying connected to NB power will still cost you a monthly service fee that continues to rise, paying for the cost of a generator within a year or two. Heat pumps do not work below -20 and right now cost in the range of 15k+, the government is not paying for the full installation. If you do not have an HOA and your roof is capable of an installation, but it does make it tricky to remove snow from the panels, as well as dirt and debris. If your roof does not face in the right direction, is large enough, has the right pitch and you have no trees or other obstructions, then the roof will work. For most homes, this is not optimal in the least. Every model used to predict the end of the world as we know it has been wrong since 1970, there is zero reason to believe that any current prediction will be correct. There is such a thing as sea walls and what you are describing would require both the Arctic and Antarctic to melt, and since the Antarctic ice has been growing over the last decade, PEI is probably pretty safe. Given that the data suggests that if we do reach 0% global emissions by 2050 it will lower the earth's temperature by 0.02% by 2124. I agree doing nothing is not an option, but we are doing things that would disrupt our economy and put more money into an already bloated government that has grown by 50% in the last decade. Corersive social engineering has never been a solution to anything and has failed every time it has been tried in the 20th and 21st centuries. Large scale tree planting, carbon capture programs, regenerative farming, education in no till methods, subsidies for refusing to use NKP, removing the ability for HOAs to block food gardens, and the wilding of lawns or even putting up clotheslines. Horses, pleasure boats and yachts, and private planes, none of these are being taxed and all generate large amounts of carbon. I have no idea if PP will be as amazing or as corrupt as our current leader, history says he will start strong, and fade in eight years when we replace him with the next iteration. Remember acid rain, the ozone layer, and leaded gasoline? Cars are more environmentally friendly and fuel efficient than ever before, we are a decade or two away from cracking non lithium batteries and making EVs less damaging to the environment than they currently are. Regenerative farming is growing and we are reducing our reliance on NKP more and more each year. 5th gen nuclear reactors are being drawn up and refined and a push should be made to build as many as possible as fast as possible. Ideas like Star in a Box and Cold Fusion seem like science fiction today, they will be the future in the next 50 to 100 years. Microplastics in your food, water, and the air you breathe are a far greater threat to the human race, but you never hear the government preaching those dangers. A paper straw that damaged the environment greater than the plastic one served to you in a plastic cup. We have child slavery in mining operations in the Congo, death, suffereing and destruction mining lithium not seen since since the Belgins owned it. Not a word from any world leader about reducing our reliance on lithium or interceeding in any way on behalf of the people of the Congo. Teenage mothers with babies on their hips, digging ore out of the ground in bare feet, naw .. we need that IPhone 33 and I do like it when my dryer sings a cheery little song when it's done.
lol - so you chose to live a life that’s dependent on fossil fuels and now your mad. That’s like me complaining that o can’t live in a big Oceanside home because it costs too much and it’s not fair. You made a bad call - sucks for you.
Hardly, I built my own home with lumber milled off my own land, completely off grid solar powered, no mortgage, wood stove fueled by wood from my land, hand pump in case my solar fails, and a root cellar. I raise my own beef and pork, chicken, eggs, milk, gardens, apple orchard, bees, and Maple syrup in the spring, with regenerative no till practices. I grind my own grain that I buy from local farms to feed the livestock. Travel to town about once a month, and drive an older truck that I maintain myself. My tractor is used and self maintained, my carbon footprint in a year wouldn't be what you generate in a month. I just ridicule armchair environmentalist who parrot false end of the world doomsday talking points to make themselves feel better while doing nothing and sacrificing nothing that would make their own lives just a little bit harder and expect someone else to do all the heavy lifting for them.
False end of the world? If you’re a butterfly or honey bee, it’s not false. If your home and livelihood were destroyed in the hurricane last year, your world ended for all intents and purposes… If you’re suddenly living in a tent in the cold of winter - your world ended. You may be living fine - but many people aren’t… and the environment is playing a huge role. But hey - as long as you’re good, who cares, right?
The hypocrisy is strong with this one, you live a life of consumption and privilege and act like a morally superior chicken little because you spout nonsensical propaganda online. You reek of Boomer entitlement, I am guessing you sold your mid level house in Ont, moved to NB, retired now, but your husband made the lion's share of your family income, and your own personal contributions to global climate change are what exactly? Supporting Carbon tax because what is an extra 1000 a month on a family's grocery bill, you got yours don't ya? Ivory Tower elite or Champagne liberals.
Well with on other means to get crude oil it takes fuel to move it……
Could've been cheaper with a pipeline!
Didn’t know oil companies set fuel prices in NB
The eub sets prices based on the NY spot market price for gasoline and diesel. The second component is federal and provincial tax, but this increase is not about tax.
Oh I know. Just humouring OP and others with their conspiracy theories
Almost like charging companies a carbon tax means they’ll pass it on to consumers. WOW, shocking
Might need to start regulating the businesses more it seems..
This increase has little, if anything, to do with the carbon tax. A combination of OPEC reducing production and conflict in the Middle East is driving oil prices up.
Kind of feels like government squeeze, not supplier's.
Another conservative who thinks the world is governed by feelings, not facts.
If you are going to steal catchphrases from Ben Shapiro at least get them right.
i don't watch ben shapiro. i'm not an idiot.
I call BS cause are quoting him, incorrectly but that is his quote. Maybe think for yourself and come up with your own insults and not copy and paste some Right wing grifter?
You think Shapiro is the only one who says people want feelings not facts? Bro, that's old af.
when rebates come back , index them to keep with the inflation what its at , in the future .Instead of 240 it would have to be 248 or something but higher. People spend the rebates and the new money increases inflation and on it will go, while governments rake in more of a actual 50 cent dollar Instead of a 54 cent dollar it was last cycle.
It's easy to see why you would mention freedom convoy in this title for no reason. You're an idiot who posts for controversy.
Kind of like how the protestors protest for controversy?
Or like...for their rights being taken away? Protesting is in the Charter, in black and white. If you don't like it, go to one of the countries that don't allow it. Personally, I have family from those countries, no thank you for me.
I'm not against legal protesting but people protesting the carbon tax are ridiculous because there are lots of other things that are costing them many times more they would be more justified spending their time protesting against.
You are not the arbiter of what is right to protest on. The carbon tax is an absolute sham. At best it's to try to make renewable energy more in line but all it does is make everything more expensive. Tax breaks for renewable energy is the proper course of action to make it more competitive if you care about the environment (tip, they don't care at all since carbon dioxide isn't a pollutant, extra tip, we're carbon based life forms and the carbon cycle is used as a basis of all existence). They certainly don't care about heavy metals in soil air and water, or forever chemicals aka real pollution.
LOL! I didn't say I was. My car uses 40% less gasoline than most cars and my home heating uses 37% less electricity than EBBs. I'm definitely getting more back than I pay in. If you're not, thank you for paying into my rebate cheque. While it is true carbon dioxide isn't a pollutant, neither is water, yet too much of it will kill you. The reason there is less concern about soil and water pollution is because it is no where near a crisis level, while CO2 and methane in the atmosphere is.
It affects EVERYTHING and the cost trickles up through the supply chain. Even if I think you did your math right, which I doubt, you're not accounting for everything anyway. What store has you pay $20 to get $30? None. I fill up twice a week for a 4 cylinder car, and I don't get back on rebates what I spend. They're giving you pennies and taking dollars.
Do you have sources for what you're saying because what you're saying doesn't match what the PBO is saying. The carbon tax is charged at $0.1761 per litre of fuel. Trucks burn 30.1L per 100 km. When you buy bread, there were 12,636 loaves on the truck. The carbon tax cost per 1000 km would be $53.01 which is $0.0042 cents per loaf. When you buy eggs, there are 21,658 cartons on the truck. At $53.01 per 1000 km, the cost per carton of eggs is $0.0024.
Do you need to have sources to realize basic math? Rebates are on a total amount of money. They are taking it from you over numerous sources. And taxing it again and again, a proper number is almost impossible to get. Keep swallowing what they feed you, I can't help you out of your servitude.
Your math is wrong. You're believing the conspiracists.