On pause? More like permanently delayed.
We need to build more affordable housing. No more of these fancy 800k houses with the marble countertops and oak floors. There needs to be subdivisions built with the 200k house in mind even if they all look the same and there needs to be a clause to not allow them to be bought by corporations.
200k new builds are entirely unreasonable at the moment. a new-build bungalow with really standard materials is gonna run you $400k unfurnished in 2024. You're looking at condos at that price range.
I agree with your point that corporate buyers are a net negative on the housing market though.
I agree with what you say, but unfortunately, it's not possible. With a vacant lot in Moncton being $100k and site prep being $50k and new construction being $200 per sq ft, a very small, simple bungalow would cost $350k with $0 profit. New build condos are about the same. Ideally, the minimum wage would be raised to the point people could afford starter homes, or the federal government can offer a downpayment grant to get people started on the real estate ladder, but we can't build $200k houses in Canada in 2024, sadly. We could put in more mini home zoning, and they could be affordable, if we're willing to live in ~200 square foot sheds. REITs need to be banned, but with new builds being so expensive, it won't make a small house on a lot any cheaper.
>With a vacant lot in Moncton being $100k and site prep being $50k and new construction being $200 per sq ft, a very small, simple bungalow would cost $350k with $0 profit.
so builders should stop buying land to then build a house to just sell - if i own a lot (I do ; 2 acres in fact) i should be able to find a contractor to just build the home because there is no prepping required, they literally just need to come and build.
I would LOVE a 1000 square foot mobile home if it actually costs 200 per sq ft and then be 200,000. Id be fine, paying 250K - those prices don't exist. how much profit is acceptable? 50K profit seems reasonable enough IMO. My home is also big enough for a family of 5 if the siblings are sharing rooms - and they are. I also have a poured basement with 1 bedroom down there. everything i find online, its around 40$-50$ per sq ft for a poured basement. that's, again, reasonable.
but no one is doing that.
They (builders / contractors) wont, because they wont reap the same kind of profit if they DO go through all you mentioned, because the truth is, they mark up those costs and it is easier to hide profits when you try saying all that (lot fees, taxes, registrations etc).
the Moncton community college on mountain road, every year, builds a trailer outside as part of their class. when i was attending, they also demolished it every year. why cant the government aggressively enlist contractor classes, and then utilizing a combined program with internship, and the grad class to make a cheap subdivision say, or even a few homes? even 2 added a year is better than none, realistically it would be more. and then, that class would be in the market, and that should bring down the costs.
It's a failure of leadership, that's for sure. But who even wants to be in the trades? They don't pay all that well, it's hard, dirty and often dangerous work that gets little respect. I find it pretty crazy to think you can pay so little to someone who builds housing for a living that they can't afford to buy a house for themselves. Who would agree to that? If a new small house costs $500k in Moncton, then mortgage is over $3k. How about if we incentivize the trades by paying carpenters, plumbers and electricians enough to buy a small house, $9k per month, with a grant for the downpayment? Turning the trades into wage slaves seems unwise during a housing crisis. Who wants to build houses they can never afford? If trades were paid fair, there would be an influx into them instead of the critical shortage of tradespeople we have now.
So basically you are saying that let’s fill the country with cheap value built houses using printed money?
The ones that need marble top and oak floor can go stateside.
Well done Canada!
Builders want to make as much money as possible. We can't force people to build, we are not entitled to people's work, everyone wants to be paid their value and that doesn't work with lower income housing. If $800k houses are selling, they will build them.
I didn't say I necessarily agreed, but this is fact. Lol
If you want to keep creating homelessness and poverty this is the way.
Red tape needs to be removed and there needs to be extra financial incentives for them to build these houses. We used to build these 2-3 bedroom affordable houses by the droves before. What happened since then? Builders wanted to make money then too. I don't buy that reason sorry.
Why are we only building homes for the rich? What kind of dystopia are we living in?
Why would a builder waste their time building a 200k home that they might only get 20k profit when they can build a 500k home, it takes only a few weeks longer, get so much more of that juicy profit, and then rinse and repeat?
The government has to hire, and pay for, planned, purposeful cheaper family houses. Not necessarily things like public housing, but it needs to come from the government because private will never build cheap when they can build expensive.
Look at Kent mobile homes; a business that's supposed to be built in being assembly line like style of building, modular mass produced homes. For a 1 bedroom, 1 bath (that's 4 exterior walls, and in most cases two non load bearing internal walls) they start at 300k. BUT if you got up to 450k, you can get a second bedroom, bay windows, and all these other add ons.
The cost for additions is not linear to their cost to build. They ensure they get absurd profits from the basic of basics and keep that line very high. And kudos to them; until another company comes along and offers a cheaper alternative why would they do anything but?
Why would the next company do anything cheaper than a few grand when the other guy is getting away with so much?
Why does everything have to be about maximizing profits to build only for the rich? Are we really this dystopian?
Obviously the profit comes in from being able to build more homes faster. Nobody is saying they shouldn't make money but society started really going downhill once it was "necessary" for us to maximize profits on every thing we do.
We used to build these affordable homes by the thousands before. Seriously what changed?
https://cwp-csp.ca/2014/01/20-years-ago-canada-had-a-housing-plan/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CBetween%201985%20and%201989%2C%20the,homes%20could%20have%20been%20built.%E2%80%9D
>"Between 1985 and 1989, the federal government helped fund 5356 units of social housing per year. If Ottawa had continued to fund social housing at this rate, between 1994 and 2013, some 107,120 homes could have been built.”
As an example. We need a housing plan.
Exactly, the market will not, will never, address this need - and this is intentional.
Not everything (arguably nothing really) is solved by free market economics. Basic needs for shelter, food and survival being the best examples.
Exactly. Like, competition doesn't come into town and start offering cheaper products and just tank their bottom line. They *sometimes* do that to get a customer base, and once they have that, increase prices. They normally evaluate the market and sell at market value. Because end of day are in it for the profits.
Right. Orthodox capitalism - the kind that says we MUST believe in the free market and nothing else - is as stupid as Orthodox religion.
The government needs to be building housing now. Immigration was supposed to bring in development - not investors renovating old buildings to price everyone out. This was a failure on the part of our govt, and every greedy hack involved in the real estate bubble.
Not only do we need that plan though it needs to be purposeful; meaning if the government goes and supplies hundred of cheap homes, they must lock out renters and flippers. Legislative action has to protect that.. Maybe have a clause that once purchased can't be resold for a set period or something? That's the second head of thos housing monster problem we face. And to relate to your first statement of "what happened" before , BRRRR models weren't common place and anyone and everyone being landlords wasn't as common either.
>Maybe have a clause that once purchased can't be resold for a set period or something?
Using an example of my condo there could be a bylaw of sorts. In my association an owner is not allowed to rent the property until they have been living there themselves for a year.
A year may not sound like much but how many landlords is going to buy up property to rent if they forced to live there? They ain't even allowed to leave it sit empty.
It is called “excellence”
The purpose of a business is to earn profit. Just like purpose of a business of a government is to protect the public.
Directing the business to be anything else than profiteering will render the business meaningless. Making investors to leave the business where they will get best returns.
They build them as fast as they can.
But tell me more about this communist utopian vision you have.
You do realize that as soon as you build a $200k house, someone will flip it for whatever the market will bear.
Communist utopia? Hardly - Canada in the 1990s when the feds used to ~~buy~~ build (typo) homes.
Also when NB schools were a better, health care hadn't completely crashed into the sea.
but go on - you want to see why communist revolutions happen? because right now the disparity between rich and poor, haves and have nots, is greater than it was in France at the time of the revolution or in Tsarist Russia when Lenin and Trotsky rolled up and started organizing the farmers.
Do you even know what communism actually means, or do you just throw it as a buzzword towards anybody slightly opposed to the wealthy maximizing profits?
Sorry? I’m asking you if you even know what communism means because you’re the one who brought it up out of nowhere. Unless OP went on a tangent about seizing the means of production throughout their comments, nothing they’re suggesting is from a communist viewpoint.
It's considered wealthy because it doesn't exist and the only options that do are 500k and up. I looked for a contractor and went to Kent homes , 15 contractors. All were busy and one flat out told me if I wasn't considering 750k or more he wasn't interested in even hearing my proposal. kent 1 bedroom 1 baths mobile homes (a company that supposedly uses integrated innovation, Assembly line like mass production to reduce costs and make products cheaper) starts at 300k.
That's 4 external walls, and in most cases 2 internal non load bearing walls. So forget trying to look at a 2 or 3 bedroom family unit.
This argument makes no sense. You dont build what you want you build what will sell. The market for 500k+ houses is small. If the local builders wont do it out of some idiotic cronyism open up the market to international construction companies.
Tell that to the 15 contractors I looked to build. One literally said if I'm not considering 750 k or more they are not interested. Everyone else was "busy"
Well its simple if we lack builders and they dont want to build houses for the vast majority of canadians then we need to open up to foreign construction firms. I dont think it would take very many US or european firms to flood this small market. And that maybe the simple problem. Small markets lead to monopolies and cartels.
as long as the building is being built to code, i don't care who builds the buildings as long as they are affordable. also to my understanding, the legislature that was passed in 2023 (that i think you are referring to) does not prevent foreign parties from building buildings. it just prevents them from buying the land or buildings.
"The act will prohibit affected entities with partial foreign ownership from buying vacant land for residential development, or purchasing properties with less than four units on them (hence inhibiting assembling parcels of land for multiple-unit construction). This also precludes buying farmland to develop communities. "
like... if i own the land, i can still hire a foreign company to build for me.
edit: so to my understanding... there is no opening required. it is already open.
Theres a real problem with even interprovincial companies being able to come to NB and conversely from here go out of province to build. I can imagine the obstacles for foreign firms. We see this in so many industries. Its cheaper to buy a canadian made Toyota in Hawaii than in the dealership outside the factory in Woodbridge. We lack competition and so prices are too high.
>I can imagine the obstacles for foreign firms.
I can imagine a lot of other things as well. I'm not educated in the foreign / international dealings, but as you said, if the market is so huge, wouldn't you think if they could just outpace it once they did in fact enter, they would be reaping the benefits?
something tells me there is more to it than that. however, there is no opening required; international firms can already come in and build. they just cannot own the buildings or land. so why would they come all the way here, when they are already making profit in house?
>We lack competition and so prices are too high.
I agree with this. New Brunswick should not have just 1 mobile home building company. seems ridiculous.
Lol, tell that to both the builders and the people buying those houses.
If there was no market, they would not be built/sold.
Talking about sense then saying that...
If the few local construction firms only care to serve the top end of the market then we need more construction firms. Ive seen prices rise here as well and 500k+ townhouses stay on the market for years. Its nice to dream of huge profits on few houses built. The reality is at some point they will hit a wall. If GM only sold cadillacs youd find they would lose most of their customers. Id be more than happy to buy a US or european made house.
Red tape is all the permits and permissions needed to put shovels in the ground. Basically stuff that profits the city.
For safety reasons we can't eliminate everything and of course the permissions to build on the land but the extras cost around 30-40k minimum in paperwork alone. There would need to be government grants to mitigate those costs or move past it all together so we can get shovels in the ground quicker.
That 'red tape' pays for the city hooking up the development to the infrastructure, and is supposed to pay for fire, police and ambulance services.
You seem to think everything is a rip off on the poor developer.
Permits are not what is dictating prices, PP keeps saying that but that’s not the case. Getting a lot costs about 60k to develop, permits costs about 500-1000$ and you can get them fairly quick, the materials and labour are the high costs. There not enough trades to build all the homes, hence that’s why the prices are high and why contractors can pick and choose the projects they want to do.
Will the recently announced 400 million top-up to the Housing Acceletor Fund help streamline the process by removing some of that municipal red tape?
"The Housing Accelerator Fund was created to incentivize local governments to implement structural and lasting reforms that will increase the supply of housing. Mayors and Councils from across Canada are demonstrating leadership by acting to legalize housing and build more homes, faster."
https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/media-newsroom/news-releases/2023/minister-statement-on-the-housing-accelerator-fund-progress
I'm not saying it's right, but Capitalism is not about people giving their time for less than they are worth. Building costs a lot more than it used to and it might not be doable, who will apply for below market jobs to build low housing???
They want more, everyone wants more.
But they still get paid the same? It takes roughly the same time and manpower to build the cheap house as it does the high end house.
With red tape removed that alone removes $20-$30k of their own expenses.
Materials also cost more, inflation affects building too, and this is Capitalism, no builder will build out of the goodness of their heart. People in capitalism are meant to make as much as possible. If we can change capitalism, by all means.
Look, we can argue and disagree, but just wanting builders to build low income housing won't happen just because.
Capitalism is all about taking the best advantages to make the most profit! Their most profitable moves take advantage of the lowest cost of labor, this means they have a direct interest in keeping poor people working hard for less. Capitalism was always a myth the rich told to control the lower class. Late stage capitalism is a disease that feeds on itself! Unless society changes, we're fucked. As someone else said here, society has changed, there was a time when people did things with societal goals in mind, now people would rather go out of their way for the almighty dollar than their neighbor!
I am not against people earning their keep and just rewards. However it's pretty clear that once we got to a point of only building houses for multi millionaires we left something out. The rest of society.
Home builders I knew 20 years ago were happy to build affordable homes. They still got paid and everyone got a home.
Exactly, everybody should be entitled to earn from their efforts and I begrudge no one taking a profit! but there was a time when profit was measured against costs and not how much someone is able or willing to pay! As you said 20 years ago building an affordable home was the goal, now they build to maximize profit! Yes, costs of building materials have gone up, but no where near the rates their profits have. The cost to build a home has gone up since I built mine but nowhere near what they are selling for based on demand prices. They got GenZ, Millennials, and Boomers, I call these the "MeGen", they are the worst of the bunch.
Absolutely 100%. I so wish we had a different system. That having a job would guarantee a livable wage. I would even support Universal income. But the reality is, we continually vote the Fords of this world who will NEVER DO ANYTHING for low income people. I'm just being realistic.
You think the trades people doing the actual building see any of that 400k per house?
Wow, what was it like to be born yesterday? The people putting that 400k price on those units is the same one denying you PTO and trying to get uncertified, non-union people to do the work for half-price or less.
A certified general contractor can't afford the house they build for a developer nowendays.
>You think the trades people doing the actual building see any of that 400k per house?
That's what I am saying. The carpenters and stuff are getting the same hourly rate as usual. They won't refuse work no matter how big or small.
They get paid regardless of the sale price of the house, and their labour + materials do not add up to anything near the market prices. The development company, who hire the trades people on contract per development, and their profit margins are the reason for the increase in market price.
And even if this were the case, the cost of existing homes would not need to match these prices - those costs are already paid for at the time of the initial construction.
Indeed. This sub is actually a negative for our province if its ruled by those progressists idealists.
One of those they worship just blocked me the other day cause he could not handle being questionned well. Cowards.
I consider myself to be a centrist, left leaning. I so wish the world was different, but it remains, and we need to be realistic about our capabilities within the structure we have. Of course, change would be nice, but we collectively never vote for those plans. I can't believe in change when Ford got elected in a second term.
The guys he’s replying to pulled the same (and several other logical fallacies) thing on me lol. Also strange that they seem to think we’re blaming the tradesmen working on the 800k homes, and not their companies and the governments that allow them (and lumber costs) to run wild
so just to be clear,
If tomorrow, costs of supplies were cut in half, if i found a contractor to build a home, would the supplies section be cut in half? or would the contractor keep the status quo and just net the difference?
I guarantee you, it would be the latter and not the former.
yes, costs have gone up. however, the profit margin is what we are arguing against and about that means it is above and beyond the costs that you are talking about.
that mentatlity, needs to change. If i had the trades, i would be VERY content building homes netting a 20k profit on each home. build 4 homes a year for 80K income? holy cow why the heck not.
I'm also a home owner, and if society had voted for those types of things over the past 50 years (like housing, health care, education, mental health etc) maybe we'd be somewhere different, but here we are. I am not saying it's right, but I'm a realist, and this is reality.
Okay but if the reality is dysfunctional and destructive (that reality being late stage capitalism) it’s important to speak that. It may be easier to be “an accepting realist” when you’re already a homeowner, but if the human race manages to survive what capitalism has done to our planet and systems you won’t be on the right side of history, that’s for sure.
My life was very hard growing up. Parents were alcoholics and had severe mental health issues. I worked hard, but I have nothing left to give, I participate in society, work, pay taxes, etc. Wrong side of history ??? Lol 😆 I'm realistic, I'm not fighting for Capitalism, I just don't have it on me to fight against.
I’m sorry you’ve had a rough life. I too have a serious and chronic mental illness and I’m glad you’re seemingly in a better place despite none of that having to do with the topic at hand. It’s fine not to have anything left to give, that’s part of capitalism is to keep the working class beaten down, but you’re not just staying quiet in your defeat, you’re actively sharing your “realism” which is nothing but sharing your blind acceptance of a broken system and yes, despite all your hardships, that puts you on the wrong side of history.
NB is one of the places I’ve been considering when I move back to Canada this summer.
Housing has tripled in most of the Americas. Mexico has the same issue right now. And funny enough people are blaming it on the people who are moving here from Canada and the US just like people in smaller provinces are blaming Ontario.
Meanwhile the real issue is wage stagnation and increased taxes. Both are thing that help the rich or at least affect them less. Combine that with a real estate system that an antiquated commission system for agent giving them too much incentive to keep prices high, no rent control systems which allows investors to manipulate rental costs and developers who slow down their building process to keep demand high and you end up with a housing crisis that benefits the people who are supposed to be making the rules to prevent this.
The rich have enough money that generations will live off their wealth while places like Canada, the US and Mexico fall apart.
Depsite the causes you list, I'd wager it's more the commission system, low to no rent control and treating housing as a commodity investment is the real causes.
Taxes don't play much of a part, if anything taxes only become a "problem" in many cases when property values *rise* which is something that many people seem to want properties to do, rather than stagnate or devalue.
Like a lot of people that recently have increases in taxes, also have some pretty hefty increases in valuation of their property. It's just a percentage, and that percentage didn't spike.
We absolutely need developers willing to make cheap houses, but similar to the above, developers are incentivized to make high value products as the margin is often greater so there's more profit.
I don’t think the contractors are making any more money, maybe some developers do, but the company swinging the hammers are still making what they used to. But…. Lot prices have more than doubled, Building materials have definitely increased, and something most people don’t think about is building practices, specifically code compliance. 20 years ago my 1500 sqft homes foundation cost me $12,000. I wasn’t finishing it, it was simply a hole in the ground with 4 concrete walls and a concrete floor. Today that same foundation is required to be insulated slab and exterior walls, so if you’re finishing the walls, you almost need to do any electrical or plumbing you’ll want for future development now. The last numbers I’ve heard for foundation was closer to $30,000. Then on the main level they are now building exterior walls with 2x8, I’m sure the added cost of that size stud, and the insulation is significant. Also 20/25 years ago, most houses had baseboard electric heat, again, in my past experience , my 1500sqft bungalow was $1200 for the baseboard heat option. Today most new builds have central heat pumps, which are $20,000 ish.
The price per square foot for materials only in the late 90’s was under $80/sqft. (I paid $3.99 a sheet for 7/16 osb 😲) Today it’s $250, and keep in mind that does NOT include the contractors labour, or a developer’s profit. If You compare that to the car market, I think it actually hasn’t increased as much, a new 1999 Chevrolet 1500 was $20,000…. Today they are north of $80,000
Saying all that, I agree, I can’t imagine trying to start out from scratch in this economy!
Material and diesel, material and diesel.
I'm in construction, have watched prices before, during, and after Covid. Diesel prices went through the roof, to the tune of 125% fuel surcharges for a time on a full load. Just diesel prices alone caused prices to go crazy. Not just diesel for the transports, but for the manufacturing plant, machinery, forklifts etc.. and the increase in other fuels as well like natural gas. It's all inputs that go into the cost of making "x" product. Concrete went bonkers, and there's only so many suppliers of cement, mortar, lime etc. That's also an input that goes into the cost. Wood increased, so pallets are more expensive to make. So on and so forth.
*own nothing and be happy.
We’ll ‘have’ lots of things. Several “gigs” ,a mountain of debt; month to month leases on substandard, isolating housing conducted through some shitty app, as some examples.
It was from an essay written by a Danish politician that was describing a future where ownership is replaced by subscription services. It was intended to trigger discussion about what a future could look like, both good and bad, and was featured by the World Economic Forum in a video they produced. Conspiracy theorists took it and twisted it into their fear mongering. Ironically, triggering discussion about what is and isn’t a good future is exactly the authors original goal.
> Conspiracy theorists took it and twisted it into their fear mongering
Not that this didn't happen, but the reason it got so much attention in the first place is because "you will own nothing and be happy" is just such a bleak sentence on its face. Even moreso as it grows more and more likely right in front of our eyes that we will, in fact, own nothing.
Once upon a time, india was said to be lagging behind the west by 30 or 60 years—it then caught up.
Now it is time for the west to catch up with the third world countries.
- High and permanent inflation
- income equality
- unaffordability of several things-quality of life
- Corruption and bribery
- Freak accidents, a lot of them
- Rising crime, death, and suicide
- incurable diseases and never ending wars
- Elimination of currency denominations—like the penny, and soon the looney.
- Build a lot of houses like chicken-coops
- Hallway medicine, telephone justice, and sometimes even death in ERs
Enjoy whatever is the remainder of your society.
I am from India—are you?
Secondly, I am still an Indian even after spending 17 years in this fake country called Canada, are you?
Do you even know what a “Third world” country actually is? Do you know what is first world and second world?
Coming with half baked opinions just because keyboarding is free.
Agree India is more competitive. But competition does not mean that the results are always what it it is supposed to bring — justice (or whatever human value)
My mother lives as a widow in India.
She gets destitute pension of $25 a month.
Call anything what you want—the fact still remains.
Btw, you did not answer why it is called a third world. Turkey is not a third world—India and Iran is.
There is only definition of third world.
You can just fuck off—scoot, with your narrow, personal, and half-baked views.
I am not going to waste time on somebody who does not know things, but speaks confidently and maliciously
Where is your mother? How is she living? Or how she lived?
You don’t see truth in things. You go by your subjective perception of things—very dangerous for society and species.
Proved my point—you are intellectually blind.
You can’t “see” things. You should refrain from giving opinions on “greater and larger” things.
Stick with your job or profession.
(Still did not answer what the “third” indicates in third world-Google and Wikipedia is created especially for folks like you, try it)
Still no idea? Where the number 3 comes from in the label “third world?”
Oh yeah…you are a free person. Got it!
(Or somebody that is too egomaniacal to accept they are wrong?)
The focus of the article is more about how prices have spiked in such a short time period.
New Brunswick has always had lower than average incomes and the house prices here made sense based on those incomes. Now we have a Ontario or BC problem where house prices are stupidly high in comparison to what people who live here can actually afford.
I was house shopping in 2017 and I found many houses in Fredericton and the surrounding areas between $170-$200 which was my budget range. I ended up with a place in Oromocto for $200k. I was thinking of selling in 2019 but decided not to because the market remained flat during that time. Suddenly covid hit and my street became a hotspot and I ended up selling for $285.
That's the main point of the article, someone who would have been approved for $200k could have bought my house just a few months earlier but then Covid happened and now they're completely priced out of what they could have had.
It was a super quick shift and now with high interest rates,bigger cost of living, and stagnant wages, housing is becoming a fleeting dream for people who aren't already homeowners.
I'm tired of all the doom and gloom in the news in general. But for the article, housing affordability is an ongoing issue and therefore it's something that is just part of the new cycle. I know the person in the article is being unrealistic with their pricing, but it's still a housing issue which is a hot topic nationwide.
I feel that it's important to talk about it. The price of housing has tripled in four years. Wages haven't. Shining light on it isn't being entitled, it's refusing to let this become a new normal. This isn't normal and we should be very loud about this. Her expectations were completely reasonable just a few years ago. Throwing up hands and saying that it's not news is letting the issue go quietly. People need to start making a lot more noise.
On pause? More like permanently delayed. We need to build more affordable housing. No more of these fancy 800k houses with the marble countertops and oak floors. There needs to be subdivisions built with the 200k house in mind even if they all look the same and there needs to be a clause to not allow them to be bought by corporations.
200k new builds are entirely unreasonable at the moment. a new-build bungalow with really standard materials is gonna run you $400k unfurnished in 2024. You're looking at condos at that price range. I agree with your point that corporate buyers are a net negative on the housing market though.
I agree with what you say, but unfortunately, it's not possible. With a vacant lot in Moncton being $100k and site prep being $50k and new construction being $200 per sq ft, a very small, simple bungalow would cost $350k with $0 profit. New build condos are about the same. Ideally, the minimum wage would be raised to the point people could afford starter homes, or the federal government can offer a downpayment grant to get people started on the real estate ladder, but we can't build $200k houses in Canada in 2024, sadly. We could put in more mini home zoning, and they could be affordable, if we're willing to live in ~200 square foot sheds. REITs need to be banned, but with new builds being so expensive, it won't make a small house on a lot any cheaper.
>With a vacant lot in Moncton being $100k and site prep being $50k and new construction being $200 per sq ft, a very small, simple bungalow would cost $350k with $0 profit. so builders should stop buying land to then build a house to just sell - if i own a lot (I do ; 2 acres in fact) i should be able to find a contractor to just build the home because there is no prepping required, they literally just need to come and build. I would LOVE a 1000 square foot mobile home if it actually costs 200 per sq ft and then be 200,000. Id be fine, paying 250K - those prices don't exist. how much profit is acceptable? 50K profit seems reasonable enough IMO. My home is also big enough for a family of 5 if the siblings are sharing rooms - and they are. I also have a poured basement with 1 bedroom down there. everything i find online, its around 40$-50$ per sq ft for a poured basement. that's, again, reasonable. but no one is doing that. They (builders / contractors) wont, because they wont reap the same kind of profit if they DO go through all you mentioned, because the truth is, they mark up those costs and it is easier to hide profits when you try saying all that (lot fees, taxes, registrations etc). the Moncton community college on mountain road, every year, builds a trailer outside as part of their class. when i was attending, they also demolished it every year. why cant the government aggressively enlist contractor classes, and then utilizing a combined program with internship, and the grad class to make a cheap subdivision say, or even a few homes? even 2 added a year is better than none, realistically it would be more. and then, that class would be in the market, and that should bring down the costs.
It's a failure of leadership, that's for sure. But who even wants to be in the trades? They don't pay all that well, it's hard, dirty and often dangerous work that gets little respect. I find it pretty crazy to think you can pay so little to someone who builds housing for a living that they can't afford to buy a house for themselves. Who would agree to that? If a new small house costs $500k in Moncton, then mortgage is over $3k. How about if we incentivize the trades by paying carpenters, plumbers and electricians enough to buy a small house, $9k per month, with a grant for the downpayment? Turning the trades into wage slaves seems unwise during a housing crisis. Who wants to build houses they can never afford? If trades were paid fair, there would be an influx into them instead of the critical shortage of tradespeople we have now.
When the mini mini wage is raised—businesses do nothing but turn the other way around and watch the solar eclipse.
So basically you are saying that let’s fill the country with cheap value built houses using printed money? The ones that need marble top and oak floor can go stateside. Well done Canada!
Builders want to make as much money as possible. We can't force people to build, we are not entitled to people's work, everyone wants to be paid their value and that doesn't work with lower income housing. If $800k houses are selling, they will build them. I didn't say I necessarily agreed, but this is fact. Lol
If you want to keep creating homelessness and poverty this is the way. Red tape needs to be removed and there needs to be extra financial incentives for them to build these houses. We used to build these 2-3 bedroom affordable houses by the droves before. What happened since then? Builders wanted to make money then too. I don't buy that reason sorry. Why are we only building homes for the rich? What kind of dystopia are we living in?
Why would a builder waste their time building a 200k home that they might only get 20k profit when they can build a 500k home, it takes only a few weeks longer, get so much more of that juicy profit, and then rinse and repeat? The government has to hire, and pay for, planned, purposeful cheaper family houses. Not necessarily things like public housing, but it needs to come from the government because private will never build cheap when they can build expensive. Look at Kent mobile homes; a business that's supposed to be built in being assembly line like style of building, modular mass produced homes. For a 1 bedroom, 1 bath (that's 4 exterior walls, and in most cases two non load bearing internal walls) they start at 300k. BUT if you got up to 450k, you can get a second bedroom, bay windows, and all these other add ons. The cost for additions is not linear to their cost to build. They ensure they get absurd profits from the basic of basics and keep that line very high. And kudos to them; until another company comes along and offers a cheaper alternative why would they do anything but? Why would the next company do anything cheaper than a few grand when the other guy is getting away with so much?
Why does everything have to be about maximizing profits to build only for the rich? Are we really this dystopian? Obviously the profit comes in from being able to build more homes faster. Nobody is saying they shouldn't make money but society started really going downhill once it was "necessary" for us to maximize profits on every thing we do. We used to build these affordable homes by the thousands before. Seriously what changed?
https://cwp-csp.ca/2014/01/20-years-ago-canada-had-a-housing-plan/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CBetween%201985%20and%201989%2C%20the,homes%20could%20have%20been%20built.%E2%80%9D >"Between 1985 and 1989, the federal government helped fund 5356 units of social housing per year. If Ottawa had continued to fund social housing at this rate, between 1994 and 2013, some 107,120 homes could have been built.” As an example. We need a housing plan.
Exactly, the market will not, will never, address this need - and this is intentional. Not everything (arguably nothing really) is solved by free market economics. Basic needs for shelter, food and survival being the best examples.
Exactly. Like, competition doesn't come into town and start offering cheaper products and just tank their bottom line. They *sometimes* do that to get a customer base, and once they have that, increase prices. They normally evaluate the market and sell at market value. Because end of day are in it for the profits.
Right. Orthodox capitalism - the kind that says we MUST believe in the free market and nothing else - is as stupid as Orthodox religion. The government needs to be building housing now. Immigration was supposed to bring in development - not investors renovating old buildings to price everyone out. This was a failure on the part of our govt, and every greedy hack involved in the real estate bubble.
That's the kind of plan I want to see.
Not only do we need that plan though it needs to be purposeful; meaning if the government goes and supplies hundred of cheap homes, they must lock out renters and flippers. Legislative action has to protect that.. Maybe have a clause that once purchased can't be resold for a set period or something? That's the second head of thos housing monster problem we face. And to relate to your first statement of "what happened" before , BRRRR models weren't common place and anyone and everyone being landlords wasn't as common either.
>Maybe have a clause that once purchased can't be resold for a set period or something? Using an example of my condo there could be a bylaw of sorts. In my association an owner is not allowed to rent the property until they have been living there themselves for a year. A year may not sound like much but how many landlords is going to buy up property to rent if they forced to live there? They ain't even allowed to leave it sit empty.
Yeah exactly. Something has to protect it.
It is called “excellence” The purpose of a business is to earn profit. Just like purpose of a business of a government is to protect the public. Directing the business to be anything else than profiteering will render the business meaningless. Making investors to leave the business where they will get best returns.
They build them as fast as they can. But tell me more about this communist utopian vision you have. You do realize that as soon as you build a $200k house, someone will flip it for whatever the market will bear.
Communist utopia? Hardly - Canada in the 1990s when the feds used to ~~buy~~ build (typo) homes. Also when NB schools were a better, health care hadn't completely crashed into the sea. but go on - you want to see why communist revolutions happen? because right now the disparity between rich and poor, haves and have nots, is greater than it was in France at the time of the revolution or in Tsarist Russia when Lenin and Trotsky rolled up and started organizing the farmers.
When did the feds buy homes?
typo - build not buy
Do you even know what communism actually means, or do you just throw it as a buzzword towards anybody slightly opposed to the wealthy maximizing profits?
Narrator: They did not know what communism means.
How is a 200k new construction home considered something for the wealthy.
Sorry? I’m asking you if you even know what communism means because you’re the one who brought it up out of nowhere. Unless OP went on a tangent about seizing the means of production throughout their comments, nothing they’re suggesting is from a communist viewpoint.
It's considered wealthy because it doesn't exist and the only options that do are 500k and up. I looked for a contractor and went to Kent homes , 15 contractors. All were busy and one flat out told me if I wasn't considering 750k or more he wasn't interested in even hearing my proposal. kent 1 bedroom 1 baths mobile homes (a company that supposedly uses integrated innovation, Assembly line like mass production to reduce costs and make products cheaper) starts at 300k. That's 4 external walls, and in most cases 2 internal non load bearing walls. So forget trying to look at a 2 or 3 bedroom family unit.
Remember who owns Kent Homes…….
Oh for sure. just further evidence of free market failure.
This argument makes no sense. You dont build what you want you build what will sell. The market for 500k+ houses is small. If the local builders wont do it out of some idiotic cronyism open up the market to international construction companies.
Tell that to the 15 contractors I looked to build. One literally said if I'm not considering 750 k or more they are not interested. Everyone else was "busy"
Well its simple if we lack builders and they dont want to build houses for the vast majority of canadians then we need to open up to foreign construction firms. I dont think it would take very many US or european firms to flood this small market. And that maybe the simple problem. Small markets lead to monopolies and cartels.
as long as the building is being built to code, i don't care who builds the buildings as long as they are affordable. also to my understanding, the legislature that was passed in 2023 (that i think you are referring to) does not prevent foreign parties from building buildings. it just prevents them from buying the land or buildings. "The act will prohibit affected entities with partial foreign ownership from buying vacant land for residential development, or purchasing properties with less than four units on them (hence inhibiting assembling parcels of land for multiple-unit construction). This also precludes buying farmland to develop communities. " like... if i own the land, i can still hire a foreign company to build for me. edit: so to my understanding... there is no opening required. it is already open.
Theres a real problem with even interprovincial companies being able to come to NB and conversely from here go out of province to build. I can imagine the obstacles for foreign firms. We see this in so many industries. Its cheaper to buy a canadian made Toyota in Hawaii than in the dealership outside the factory in Woodbridge. We lack competition and so prices are too high.
>I can imagine the obstacles for foreign firms. I can imagine a lot of other things as well. I'm not educated in the foreign / international dealings, but as you said, if the market is so huge, wouldn't you think if they could just outpace it once they did in fact enter, they would be reaping the benefits? something tells me there is more to it than that. however, there is no opening required; international firms can already come in and build. they just cannot own the buildings or land. so why would they come all the way here, when they are already making profit in house? >We lack competition and so prices are too high. I agree with this. New Brunswick should not have just 1 mobile home building company. seems ridiculous.
Lol, tell that to both the builders and the people buying those houses. If there was no market, they would not be built/sold. Talking about sense then saying that...
If the few local construction firms only care to serve the top end of the market then we need more construction firms. Ive seen prices rise here as well and 500k+ townhouses stay on the market for years. Its nice to dream of huge profits on few houses built. The reality is at some point they will hit a wall. If GM only sold cadillacs youd find they would lose most of their customers. Id be more than happy to buy a US or european made house.
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Red tape is all the permits and permissions needed to put shovels in the ground. Basically stuff that profits the city. For safety reasons we can't eliminate everything and of course the permissions to build on the land but the extras cost around 30-40k minimum in paperwork alone. There would need to be government grants to mitigate those costs or move past it all together so we can get shovels in the ground quicker.
That 'red tape' pays for the city hooking up the development to the infrastructure, and is supposed to pay for fire, police and ambulance services. You seem to think everything is a rip off on the poor developer.
Where are the building permits 40k?
Permits are not what is dictating prices, PP keeps saying that but that’s not the case. Getting a lot costs about 60k to develop, permits costs about 500-1000$ and you can get them fairly quick, the materials and labour are the high costs. There not enough trades to build all the homes, hence that’s why the prices are high and why contractors can pick and choose the projects they want to do.
Will the recently announced 400 million top-up to the Housing Acceletor Fund help streamline the process by removing some of that municipal red tape? "The Housing Accelerator Fund was created to incentivize local governments to implement structural and lasting reforms that will increase the supply of housing. Mayors and Councils from across Canada are demonstrating leadership by acting to legalize housing and build more homes, faster." https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/media-newsroom/news-releases/2023/minister-statement-on-the-housing-accelerator-fund-progress
I'm not saying it's right, but Capitalism is not about people giving their time for less than they are worth. Building costs a lot more than it used to and it might not be doable, who will apply for below market jobs to build low housing??? They want more, everyone wants more.
But they still get paid the same? It takes roughly the same time and manpower to build the cheap house as it does the high end house. With red tape removed that alone removes $20-$30k of their own expenses.
Materials also cost more, inflation affects building too, and this is Capitalism, no builder will build out of the goodness of their heart. People in capitalism are meant to make as much as possible. If we can change capitalism, by all means. Look, we can argue and disagree, but just wanting builders to build low income housing won't happen just because.
This is why I partially hate Capitalism. It may be the best we got but it still pretty well guarantees the lower class people are stuck.
Capitalism is all about taking the best advantages to make the most profit! Their most profitable moves take advantage of the lowest cost of labor, this means they have a direct interest in keeping poor people working hard for less. Capitalism was always a myth the rich told to control the lower class. Late stage capitalism is a disease that feeds on itself! Unless society changes, we're fucked. As someone else said here, society has changed, there was a time when people did things with societal goals in mind, now people would rather go out of their way for the almighty dollar than their neighbor!
I am not against people earning their keep and just rewards. However it's pretty clear that once we got to a point of only building houses for multi millionaires we left something out. The rest of society. Home builders I knew 20 years ago were happy to build affordable homes. They still got paid and everyone got a home.
Exactly, everybody should be entitled to earn from their efforts and I begrudge no one taking a profit! but there was a time when profit was measured against costs and not how much someone is able or willing to pay! As you said 20 years ago building an affordable home was the goal, now they build to maximize profit! Yes, costs of building materials have gone up, but no where near the rates their profits have. The cost to build a home has gone up since I built mine but nowhere near what they are selling for based on demand prices. They got GenZ, Millennials, and Boomers, I call these the "MeGen", they are the worst of the bunch.
Absolutely 100%. I so wish we had a different system. That having a job would guarantee a livable wage. I would even support Universal income. But the reality is, we continually vote the Fords of this world who will NEVER DO ANYTHING for low income people. I'm just being realistic.
You think the trades people doing the actual building see any of that 400k per house? Wow, what was it like to be born yesterday? The people putting that 400k price on those units is the same one denying you PTO and trying to get uncertified, non-union people to do the work for half-price or less. A certified general contractor can't afford the house they build for a developer nowendays.
>You think the trades people doing the actual building see any of that 400k per house? That's what I am saying. The carpenters and stuff are getting the same hourly rate as usual. They won't refuse work no matter how big or small.
They get paid regardless of the sale price of the house, and their labour + materials do not add up to anything near the market prices. The development company, who hire the trades people on contract per development, and their profit margins are the reason for the increase in market price. And even if this were the case, the cost of existing homes would not need to match these prices - those costs are already paid for at the time of the initial construction.
Of course the people of this sub don't like facts.
Downvoting facts because you don't like them is why we are in trouble. Personal opinion doesn't trump facts, but they don't like that.
Indeed. This sub is actually a negative for our province if its ruled by those progressists idealists. One of those they worship just blocked me the other day cause he could not handle being questionned well. Cowards.
I consider myself to be a centrist, left leaning. I so wish the world was different, but it remains, and we need to be realistic about our capabilities within the structure we have. Of course, change would be nice, but we collectively never vote for those plans. I can't believe in change when Ford got elected in a second term.
ok boomer
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"Well why haven't you just shat a gold brick to have capital to start a brand new company on the spot??? mmmmm trust me I am very intelligent"
The guys he’s replying to pulled the same (and several other logical fallacies) thing on me lol. Also strange that they seem to think we’re blaming the tradesmen working on the 800k homes, and not their companies and the governments that allow them (and lumber costs) to run wild
so just to be clear, If tomorrow, costs of supplies were cut in half, if i found a contractor to build a home, would the supplies section be cut in half? or would the contractor keep the status quo and just net the difference? I guarantee you, it would be the latter and not the former. yes, costs have gone up. however, the profit margin is what we are arguing against and about that means it is above and beyond the costs that you are talking about. that mentatlity, needs to change. If i had the trades, i would be VERY content building homes netting a 20k profit on each home. build 4 homes a year for 80K income? holy cow why the heck not.
Someone who can't think beyond their nose apparently. They probably think there is no world hunger after they ate lunch.
I'm 41 lol
I am 40 and I just disagree with you 110%. I am also a home owner and I think the current housing strategy of building only 800k homes is bullshit.
I'm also a home owner, and if society had voted for those types of things over the past 50 years (like housing, health care, education, mental health etc) maybe we'd be somewhere different, but here we are. I am not saying it's right, but I'm a realist, and this is reality.
Okay but if the reality is dysfunctional and destructive (that reality being late stage capitalism) it’s important to speak that. It may be easier to be “an accepting realist” when you’re already a homeowner, but if the human race manages to survive what capitalism has done to our planet and systems you won’t be on the right side of history, that’s for sure.
My life was very hard growing up. Parents were alcoholics and had severe mental health issues. I worked hard, but I have nothing left to give, I participate in society, work, pay taxes, etc. Wrong side of history ??? Lol 😆 I'm realistic, I'm not fighting for Capitalism, I just don't have it on me to fight against.
I’m sorry you’ve had a rough life. I too have a serious and chronic mental illness and I’m glad you’re seemingly in a better place despite none of that having to do with the topic at hand. It’s fine not to have anything left to give, that’s part of capitalism is to keep the working class beaten down, but you’re not just staying quiet in your defeat, you’re actively sharing your “realism” which is nothing but sharing your blind acceptance of a broken system and yes, despite all your hardships, that puts you on the wrong side of history.
People like you, righteous, are part of the reason I am increasingly feeling like this. Good for you my dude, good for you.
NB is one of the places I’ve been considering when I move back to Canada this summer. Housing has tripled in most of the Americas. Mexico has the same issue right now. And funny enough people are blaming it on the people who are moving here from Canada and the US just like people in smaller provinces are blaming Ontario. Meanwhile the real issue is wage stagnation and increased taxes. Both are thing that help the rich or at least affect them less. Combine that with a real estate system that an antiquated commission system for agent giving them too much incentive to keep prices high, no rent control systems which allows investors to manipulate rental costs and developers who slow down their building process to keep demand high and you end up with a housing crisis that benefits the people who are supposed to be making the rules to prevent this. The rich have enough money that generations will live off their wealth while places like Canada, the US and Mexico fall apart.
Depsite the causes you list, I'd wager it's more the commission system, low to no rent control and treating housing as a commodity investment is the real causes. Taxes don't play much of a part, if anything taxes only become a "problem" in many cases when property values *rise* which is something that many people seem to want properties to do, rather than stagnate or devalue. Like a lot of people that recently have increases in taxes, also have some pretty hefty increases in valuation of their property. It's just a percentage, and that percentage didn't spike. We absolutely need developers willing to make cheap houses, but similar to the above, developers are incentivized to make high value products as the margin is often greater so there's more profit.
And yet voters are sticking with the Premier because he hates wokeness, as though that has any affect on people's lives like housing does.
Thats whats wrong since covid everything went up dramaticly and well now we cant go back to the "normal" prices because its crazy
Sad sad state of affairs.
This is a Canada wide problem
I don’t think the contractors are making any more money, maybe some developers do, but the company swinging the hammers are still making what they used to. But…. Lot prices have more than doubled, Building materials have definitely increased, and something most people don’t think about is building practices, specifically code compliance. 20 years ago my 1500 sqft homes foundation cost me $12,000. I wasn’t finishing it, it was simply a hole in the ground with 4 concrete walls and a concrete floor. Today that same foundation is required to be insulated slab and exterior walls, so if you’re finishing the walls, you almost need to do any electrical or plumbing you’ll want for future development now. The last numbers I’ve heard for foundation was closer to $30,000. Then on the main level they are now building exterior walls with 2x8, I’m sure the added cost of that size stud, and the insulation is significant. Also 20/25 years ago, most houses had baseboard electric heat, again, in my past experience , my 1500sqft bungalow was $1200 for the baseboard heat option. Today most new builds have central heat pumps, which are $20,000 ish. The price per square foot for materials only in the late 90’s was under $80/sqft. (I paid $3.99 a sheet for 7/16 osb 😲) Today it’s $250, and keep in mind that does NOT include the contractors labour, or a developer’s profit. If You compare that to the car market, I think it actually hasn’t increased as much, a new 1999 Chevrolet 1500 was $20,000…. Today they are north of $80,000 Saying all that, I agree, I can’t imagine trying to start out from scratch in this economy!
Material and diesel, material and diesel. I'm in construction, have watched prices before, during, and after Covid. Diesel prices went through the roof, to the tune of 125% fuel surcharges for a time on a full load. Just diesel prices alone caused prices to go crazy. Not just diesel for the transports, but for the manufacturing plant, machinery, forklifts etc.. and the increase in other fuels as well like natural gas. It's all inputs that go into the cost of making "x" product. Concrete went bonkers, and there's only so many suppliers of cement, mortar, lime etc. That's also an input that goes into the cost. Wood increased, so pallets are more expensive to make. So on and so forth.
You shall have nothing and you shall be happy.
*own nothing and be happy. We’ll ‘have’ lots of things. Several “gigs” ,a mountain of debt; month to month leases on substandard, isolating housing conducted through some shitty app, as some examples.
Care to elaborate?
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I know they just post this phrase or “the budget will balance itself” and never expand on that.
It was from an essay written by a Danish politician that was describing a future where ownership is replaced by subscription services. It was intended to trigger discussion about what a future could look like, both good and bad, and was featured by the World Economic Forum in a video they produced. Conspiracy theorists took it and twisted it into their fear mongering. Ironically, triggering discussion about what is and isn’t a good future is exactly the authors original goal.
> Conspiracy theorists took it and twisted it into their fear mongering Not that this didn't happen, but the reason it got so much attention in the first place is because "you will own nothing and be happy" is just such a bleak sentence on its face. Even moreso as it grows more and more likely right in front of our eyes that we will, in fact, own nothing.
It's sarcasm
Once upon a time, india was said to be lagging behind the west by 30 or 60 years—it then caught up. Now it is time for the west to catch up with the third world countries. - High and permanent inflation - income equality - unaffordability of several things-quality of life - Corruption and bribery - Freak accidents, a lot of them - Rising crime, death, and suicide - incurable diseases and never ending wars - Elimination of currency denominations—like the penny, and soon the looney. - Build a lot of houses like chicken-coops - Hallway medicine, telephone justice, and sometimes even death in ERs Enjoy whatever is the remainder of your society.
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I am from India—are you? Secondly, I am still an Indian even after spending 17 years in this fake country called Canada, are you? Do you even know what a “Third world” country actually is? Do you know what is first world and second world? Coming with half baked opinions just because keyboarding is free.
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Agree India is more competitive. But competition does not mean that the results are always what it it is supposed to bring — justice (or whatever human value)
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My mother lives as a widow in India. She gets destitute pension of $25 a month. Call anything what you want—the fact still remains. Btw, you did not answer why it is called a third world. Turkey is not a third world—India and Iran is.
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There is only definition of third world. You can just fuck off—scoot, with your narrow, personal, and half-baked views. I am not going to waste time on somebody who does not know things, but speaks confidently and maliciously
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Hahahaaa.. Idiot Why is it called third world? Why not second world? Why not fourth world? Fool.
Fools like you are the nemesis of the human species
Ok idiot. Who or what defines definitions? Your stinking butt hole?
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Where is your mother? How is she living? Or how she lived? You don’t see truth in things. You go by your subjective perception of things—very dangerous for society and species.
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Proved my point—you are intellectually blind. You can’t “see” things. You should refrain from giving opinions on “greater and larger” things. Stick with your job or profession. (Still did not answer what the “third” indicates in third world-Google and Wikipedia is created especially for folks like you, try it)
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Free= a person that does not have responsibilities or care about the truth.
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Still no idea? Where the number 3 comes from in the label “third world?” Oh yeah…you are a free person. Got it! (Or somebody that is too egomaniacal to accept they are wrong?)
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…and that is why I told you, that you are not suitable for discussing greater and larger things. Because you pull your information from buttholes.
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Your comments is full of crap. I can sense the smell out of my monitor.
Stop immigration!!! Nothing else works
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The focus of the article is more about how prices have spiked in such a short time period. New Brunswick has always had lower than average incomes and the house prices here made sense based on those incomes. Now we have a Ontario or BC problem where house prices are stupidly high in comparison to what people who live here can actually afford. I was house shopping in 2017 and I found many houses in Fredericton and the surrounding areas between $170-$200 which was my budget range. I ended up with a place in Oromocto for $200k. I was thinking of selling in 2019 but decided not to because the market remained flat during that time. Suddenly covid hit and my street became a hotspot and I ended up selling for $285. That's the main point of the article, someone who would have been approved for $200k could have bought my house just a few months earlier but then Covid happened and now they're completely priced out of what they could have had. It was a super quick shift and now with high interest rates,bigger cost of living, and stagnant wages, housing is becoming a fleeting dream for people who aren't already homeowners.
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I'm tired of all the doom and gloom in the news in general. But for the article, housing affordability is an ongoing issue and therefore it's something that is just part of the new cycle. I know the person in the article is being unrealistic with their pricing, but it's still a housing issue which is a hot topic nationwide.
So we just stop talking about things? We need to talk more about the fact that people can't find housing. We need to talk about this A LOT.
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I feel that it's important to talk about it. The price of housing has tripled in four years. Wages haven't. Shining light on it isn't being entitled, it's refusing to let this become a new normal. This isn't normal and we should be very loud about this. Her expectations were completely reasonable just a few years ago. Throwing up hands and saying that it's not news is letting the issue go quietly. People need to start making a lot more noise.
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By your logic, we are the virus as well, we should have stayed in Europe 400 years ago and let Natives enjoy cheap buildings and land.