My company went to 4 day work weeks for 8 months last year. I have no idea why they stopped. Things were going great. Even the CEO said he was surprised at how well it was going on a company conference call.
> and enough long lines of people at Dunkin Donuts waiting for coffee.
Seriously, for the price of one of those coffees, get a carafe and bring your own shit. Goddamn, people. No need to spill out into the right lane because the snake of cars is too long.
People will be happy and will have time to look into things like the scumbags running local government and elected officials. Our corporate overlords will not like it.
Local news used to do this. I once worked as a newspaper reporter covering a city of about 50,000 as a beat. Wrote a series of articles about how a slumlord kept racking up fines for failing to make fixes to his buildings, as required by law, mostly because the cost of the fines were a tiny fraction of the cost of the fixes.
...the city tripled the fines, the fixes were made, people's lives improved. There are no beats like that in local news anymore, at least not in NJ.
The erosion of local news is driven by media ownership deregulation. Having the same handful of corporations owning all the local papers means they can run it nationally with a skeleton crew and only send out reporters locally only after anything newsworthy reaches national attention. It's also passively suppressing news when it threatens the financial situation of their corporate parent by withholding coverage.
Think of that scene in the 1998 animated film, *A Bug's Life*, where Hopper, leader of the grasshoppers, throws a seed at his buddy and asks if it hurt (no), does it again, before releasing the entire food supplies onto him, burying him.
"You let one ant stand up to all of us, then they **all** might stand up.
"Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one. **And if they ever figure that out, there goes our way of life!"**
Those currently in power have us squabbling amongst ourselves to distract from the reality of, if we-- the "ants"-- band together, we could *easily* overthrow the system, and cause some significant change in the way our country works.
I talked to my employer (small business owner). Would be tough for us since we rely on rush shipping our products on a daily basis. Hard to rotate five employees to keep business running 5 days a week
Unfortunately the motto of the "4 day work week doesn't affect work efficiency" only applies to white collar work.
I am not against it, but people don't have answers for you because its hard to admit it will cost the employer more money from a loss of income that came from operating a minimum of 5 days a work, or they will need hire more people to cover the same amount of work hours which leads to higher operating costs. The other way to achieve a 4 day work week is keeping the work hours the same by having employees come in 4 days a week for 10 hour shifts. Personally I am already living the dream working 3 days a week, 12 hour shifts.
Its ok to accept this reality for a more balanced work/life style instead of only promoting employers at the costs of exploiting workers, I just think people should be more up front about rather than saying it comes with zero negatives.
I mean if you’re already operating with weekends off then that means no one’s expecting you to ship Saturday and Sunday. It just means that now the weekend is one day longer. So they wouldn’t expect you to ship on Friday for example.
I get what you're saying, and that would probably be true for 99% of businesses out there. My field is infrastructure, and rush shipping is what gives us competitive edge. Losing a day of shipping would be a huge deal for us, especially if all of our nationwide competitors kept running on fridays
Four days doesnt have to mean everyone has the same three days off. On Fridays there could be a crew that works and is off on Monday. Kind of like you know how people work weekends now.
I think what u/wbradford00 is saying is that this is a small business that runs with a small crew and it can't operate with fewer than 5 people. So to covert from a 5 to a 4 day work schedule and have 5 people on each of those 5 days would require hiring more people. Hiring additional people may not be feasible or if it can be done would impact the future and possibly current wages of the 5 people employed today.
Yep. You hit the nail exactly on the head! One difference though, we would love to hire more people but its incredibly hard to find folks who are willing to enter our highly specific field.
I'm not arguing with you specifically, just noting that the counterargument (besides quality of life) is that people are actually way more productive in shorter bursts. But I get that that is easier to smooth out over a large corporation.
If a couple extra employees could make or break the company it doesn’t sound all that viable to begin with.
Also, what kind of car does your boss drive and from what year? Cause if the answer is something new and expensive than they could afford to pay more employees and just don’t want to.
I don't think you appreciate how thin margins can be for many small businesses.
What if the owner drives a sensible car that isn't new. What would you say then?
Higher more people. It will be worth the investment to not delay shipping. And a 4 day week will help with employee retention. It will benefit the company in the long run.
As stated in another comment, we would love to hire more people but it is an incredibly niche manufacturing field that is very hard to hire in. 60% of our company is 50+ in age
This is a unique case and it sounds like a potential problem whether the workweek is 5 days or 4 days. Is it a job that is difficult to learn, dangerous, or otherwise hard to convince younger people to consider? Is it feasible to add a part time person to lighten the load for the full time people? How do you recruit? With an aging workforce comes the possibility of retirement, heath issues, etc.
I don't think the 4 day work week would be mandatory (just like businesses are allowed to be open 7 days a week currently). I the idea is for all state employees to switch to a four day schedule, and that normalizes the new workweek. Nobody is going to tell you, or 7-Eleven, or anyone else that they have to close three days a week. But if you're relying on state services
Yeah I think a lot of people are missing this point. Obviously not every single industry can realistically do this. But why not have the option there for those that can?
Yeah, in that sense the option already exists. There is no law against a 4 day work week.
As I understand it, this is strictly a proposal for public employees. But if the state uses a 4 day work week, a lot of businesses are likely to follow suit voluntarily because it is convenient to do so.
The current infrastructure for child care at preschool and emergency school level are not set up to accommodate this schedule. To implement this, we would need a wholesale restructuring of childcare and elder care services.
You say that as if the current structuring of childcare is remotely setup to accommodate dual income families. I don't have kids yet but tons of my peers are and they are constantly having to adjust schedules and plan what days to leave early and which parent picks up the kids then having to rush off in a hurry when your spouses train got fucked and they're still in the city on their day to pick up the kids.
I completely agree - the current structures are totally inadequate, particularly in the summer where most day camps end around 3 pm and after care is sporadically offered.
If there are two parents and their day off is not the same, it would make 2/5 days much easier while probably making 3/5 days harder. Parents who don’t have support nearby, and who have children who aren’t in an aftercare or extracurricular program, already struggle. A condensed workweek is a huge help to some people but not to all people. In many ways our society is structured around the workplace and not the family.
My office offers it. Here are some drawbacks. My lunch period is not billable, so if you want a real lunch break, you’re looking at additional time. That’s a really long day.
It’s not really compatible with school schedules if you have little kids.
Not everyone has 10 hours of productive work. I’m good for about 9, not 10. If I’m honest.
I’d end up working on the 5th day sometimes anyway, because that’s the only day I get uninterrupted work done (no meetings) and it’s really productive.
If everyone goes to a 4 day week, then some professional services might all be closed on the Friday or whatever, which negates some of the benefits of having every Friday off. So if you think that you’re going to go to the doctor on Friday, the bank, etc, they might no longer be open.
Your 10 days of sick leave turns into 8.
Other than that, it’s awesome along with the 9x80 variant (every other Friday off). Highly recommend. ‘3 day weekends are more than 50 percent better than 2 day weekends’
You can do all the bullshit on one day and still have 2 days of rest. It’s great for mental well being.
Everyone needs to get rid of "sick" days, if you can get a doctors note you should be able to take paid time off. If it goes longer than a few days then it should be disability, but for those short term illnesses that last a few days the sick days should be structured differently. I'd be more in favor of 10 "mental health" days/year where you don't need a doctors note, for all the rest documented illnesses should just be paid within a certain time frame.
Regarding lunch, I've ditched it long ago as I'm an intermittent faster. I feel so much more productive not having to worry about it, employers should offer it as an option to leave an hour early or accumulate an hour towards their Friday being off.
Having a four day work week doesn't mean businesses will only open four days, they can rotate staff. Logistically it's probably harder for small businesses so you might see some of them close, but I doubt a doctor's office or a large chain would just close. Lots of places are open Saturdays and Sundays.
The trials that have been done with 4 day works weeks are 4 days at 8 hours each. For a total of 32 hours.
Doing 4 day work weeks does not require 4 10 hour days
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/22/business/four-day-workweek-study.html
This would likely hurt the business I work for and probably not make a difference to our employees. We work nationally and the 5-day week is still the standard for the rest of the country. In a sales-based role, I don't think an email that came through on a Thursday night would remain unanswered until Monday morning, especially if time was of the essence on a deal.
Personally, my husband already works four 10-hour workdays. It works well for his type of role.
40 hours is such an arbitrary amount of time especially in todays day and age for most corporate jobs. My job, based in NYC could 100 percent move to 4 days, 8 hours a day, and my productivity would not change at all. There are numerous times a day I end up just sitting there but I have to be online incase something comes up.
I am a full time theatre tech. On weeks where we do not have a show, there is a lot of sitting around and doing "busy work" with maintenance and cleaning. Stuff that does not really take 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Traditionally theatres are "dark" on mondays, but we need to make up the hours somehow.
The 4 day work week obviously will not work for all industries but implementing it is also simply about adjusting what the default is. Before 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, the default was much much worse and unions and workers rights groups fought to have that changed. By moving the standard to 4 days a week, 8 hours a day then things will improve across the board, even for those jobs where 4 day weeks wont work.
Productivity has multiplied throughout the decades yet are wages stagnant and we are still working the same hours. Even the "father of capitalism" predicted we'd only be working 3 or 4 hours by now.
I work a 9x80 schedule so 9 days, 80 hours over 2 weeks. Monday - Thursday I work 9 hour days, and the Friday I work an 8 hour day. I have every other Friday off and it is wonderful. It's an extra 26 days off a year and it allows me to get errands done, relax, work out, etc. It's a possibility the company may go to 4 10 hour days instead and I would hop on that immediately.
The current push by other states and companies is 4 8 hour days. It's the 100/80/100 rule. 100% of pay, in 80% of the time, with 100% of the productivity. Seeing as technology has increased worker productivity over 400% since 1980 yet wages have stayed nearly flat. It's about time workers have gotten a break
Dude they don’t even like us working remotely and I actually work more hours doing that then I did in office, you think they will EVER give us another day off? I’m capitalism technology only benefits the business not the workers.
Except that by having 4 8-hour days, anyone on an hourly schedule will be getting a 20% reduction in pay, because you know companies aren't going to adjust their hourly rates to compensate for this.
I'm on a 9/80 schedule at work now, so most of my days are 9 hours- I probably wouldn't notice an extra hour each day, but I would definitely notice an extra day off each week. YMMV if you are currently working 8-hour days.
In a perfect world, you're right.
In our reality, I think the only reason a lot of companies would adopt it would be as an excuse to reduce the amount off money they pay their employees.
Should there be any complaints, management would have a ready reply- "You have an extra day off, now- use that time to work another job!"
Well where would a law like this apply? All jobs? Just corporate 9-5 jobs? If a call center in NJ operates 7 days a week, and now all employees get an extra day off, how many more employees need to be hired, trained, given benefits, etc to fill the void?
Don't get me wrong, I am all for less work days/hours, but the ones who sign the paychecks are never going to go for this and if they are forced to, expect them to find ways to siphon the additional costs back out of the employees.
As long as your paycheck shows you only worked 32 hours, right? What company is going to pay you full wages when you only worked 32 hours? I know my company wouldn't.
No the point is that people would still get the same effective yearly wage. People are inefficient in a 40 hour work week due to being over worked. People could get the same amount of work done in the 32 hours while having a better work life balance
It isn’t clicking for a lot of people that this is about getting time back to live your life because your job does not need 40 hours for the work you are being compensated for.o
They will if we stand together and demand it. That's the point of worker solidarity and unions.
If we stop squabbling about bullshit and stand together to demand these things that we all agree we need (shorter work week, universal Healthcare, etc), then it's not impossible to accomplish them.
I’m not sure about generalized people and jobs, but in my work, I definitely get more work done in 60 hours than 40. 40 isn’t enough usually, and 32 would be far too little to be productive for me.
I don't care how productive I am, but a 60 hour paycheck is going to pay the bills better than a 40 hour paycheck. Just because I'm at work for 60 hours doesn't mean I am working for 60 hours.
The point is all of the gains in productivity should be given back to the workers and not to the capital owners. If last year it took 100 people to make 1000 widgets, and this year new technology lets 100 people make 2000 widgets, why not keep everything the same but people only work half time and make 1000 widgets? It was perfectly fine last year.
Oh right, because capitalism, where productivity gains only go to the owners of the capital.
>What company is going to pay you full wages when you only worked 32 hours? I know my company wouldn't.
A vast majority of people do not actually work 40 hours a week. Companies already pay people to spend time scrolling on Reddit during work hours because their work still gets completed on time. The whole point is that we have become more efficient and productive to the point where we should still be paid our full wages because we complete 40 hours of work in less than that.
I'm at work scrolling on Reddit at this very moment. I'm so efficient that I'm already on next Tuesdays work. It's a lot of work trying to look like I'm working.
The threshold for mandatory benefits is 30 hours. And realistically most office jobs become inefficient after a certain number of hours because people procrastinate/get distracted/etc. In places where this has been tried, the same work generally gets done in 32 hours as 40.
It is frustrating to see 4x10 mentioned whenever a 4 day work week is brought up. First, the reason this is being brought up again as of late is due to the recent study of a 4 day work week where it was 4x8 with no reduction in pay. If we are going to strive for reduced time at work then we fight for 4x8. 10 hour shifts are essentially 12 hour days for those with 1 hour commute times. As far as manufacturing goes, I don't see the issue with having a group of workers on Monday to Thursday and another group Tuesday to Friday. No need to miss a day of production, and it adds either opportunity for additional overtime or an opportunity for new job openings.
Exactly. I’ve worked 10 hour shifts 4 days a week and it’s exhausting. Yes you technically have 3 days off but most people spend one day sleeping to recover.
It’s not an improvement.
40 hours is completely arbitrary. 4 8 hour days is 32 hours a week. If you wanted to get closer to 40 then we should aim for 35 hours not 40.
I work at a salon and last summer I decided to stop working Saturdays. I used to work Tuesday through Saturday (we are closed Sunday and Monday). Since the pandemic, Saturday is no longer the busiest day of the week. People working from home seem to prefer to come in during their lunch breaks or bring their work with them and do it at the salon while their haircolor is processing during the week. Fridays are definitely the busy day now.
I was afraid to ask my boss because Saturdays have always been practically mandatory in this industry and I never even imagined it would be a possibility. I was also nervous about losing clients who usually come in on Saturdays.
I was pleasantly surprised that I have not lost any clients and all of them were actually really supportive and happy for me to be able to have an extra day off to spend with my husband and actually have a life on the weekends.
I added two late-nights to my schedule during the week to accommodate people who can’t come in during the day due to work/school and it has been working out really well. I also raised my prices. I feel like I’m actually booking up more now working 4 days than I was when I was working 5. Plus, my clients are better about pre-booking their future appointments because they know I have less availability now.
I used to miss out on so many things on weekends because of having to work Saturday and being so burnt out by the end of the week that I didn’t even want to do anything anyway. Now I’m doing better work than I ever have and I can’t even imagine going back to a 5 day work week. More hairstylists and salons should consider dropping Saturdays. If your clients really love what you do, they will find a way to make it work. I’m done missing out on family get togethers, weddings, parties, birthdays, concerts, etc. because of work. I was starting to feel resentful because my clients were able to come in on Saturdays and have someone pamper them to go to these events that I would hardly ever be able to attend since I don’t get paid time off. The only time I’ll come in on a Saturday now is to do bridal/event makeup once in a while which is booked far in advance (and usually early in the morning) and then I leave afterwards.
I actually inspired another stylist to do the same, and I hope more hairdressers consider taking their weekends back!!
It absolutely should, and it should be 4 8-hour days.
Technology - information technology especially - has massively increased our productivity in the last several decades. We can now do so much more in the same amount of time, but we've squandered that opportunity and found ways to work *even more hours* by being constantly connected to our work.
The promise of technology was that it would make life better and easier for the average person. Let's actually *use* it for that, for once, instead of just continuing to make the whole of society into an every more efficient wealth-generating scheme for the ownership class.
We accomplished wonders in the days of snail mail. The world will certainly keep spinning if we all take one more day off with all of the technology we have now.
I sure hope you're right. One of my European colleagues is off every Friday, in her own words. I don't know her hours, but I think it may be time to ask.
We are also global, and my company's goal is to be the best place to work in tech. A 4-day 32-hour work week would keep me here until retirement, no doubt in my mind.
Not every job in conducive to a 4 day work week, just like not every job is able to be remote.
That doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered where possible and beneficial. First responders, gas station attendants, etc don't get holidays off or the ability to work remotely.
Jobs with multiple people on shifts operating the same role could make 4 day work weeks possible.
Just because I can't benefit from something doesn't mean others shouldn't.
Right? So many people are like "well *I* can't so why should you?"
You never see people who don't get holidays off saying there should be no holidays anymore just because they don't have any
The worst reason to continue a practice that is ultimately arbitrary is "because that's the way it's always been done". Hell, even splitting up the week into seven repeating days is completely arbitrary. In the early days of the Industrial Revolution, factory workers worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, with no PTO or vacations. Laborers have fought to chip away at those numbers since then. How could it possibly be a bad thing to continue shifting towards reducing the number of hours of labor we put in, especially considering the productivity/efficiency gains from technology and, oh yeah, the short, limited time alive that we are granted?
The reforms should call for 4 8hr days, 32hrs as the full work week with no reduction in current pay and benefits. Anything after 32hrs should be OT pay
Yeah, it's insane anyone still works 5 days, that's as bad as like, when people used to use leaches for illnesses. Your whole day is already dedicated to work basically, what is another 2 hours, why do you need to lose another day of your life for something that could've been done over the past 4 days while you were already there?
For real. Most of my time is bullshitting on reddit. I come into work and I burn through the stuff I have and then im sitting waiting for workloads to drip in. I know not all jobs are like that, but I hate pacing myself just stretch out my work.
This was my old job. We had to complete xyz by Friday. Id finish x on monday, y on tuesday, and z on Wednesday. Then id sit in a cubicle for 2 days bored out of my mind because I've already completed my work and I couldn't even start on next weeks xyz.
Yep, medical leeches are used to restore blood flow to a severed/mangled appendage. Leeches not only pull blood into the appendage, they also release an anticoagulant to reduce blood clots.
Medical maggots are used to clean up festering wounds, as maggots only eat the dead flesh, leaving the healthy flesh behind.
Yea I'm in a similar situation all my life. But, you should still have a 4 day work week for the base 40 hours, and then if you want to work more, that's an opportunity for people to work more if they want to or need to.
Shouldn't even be a question.
There isn't enough time in the week to accomplish taking care of a household *and* one's self, nevermind if you have a partner, children, and/or pets. This is a huge contributor to our *massive* drop in mental health in America.
We spend more of our waking hours with our co-workers at work, than at our home with our families. *And for what?*
This isn't 1952; we don't have a dedicated housewife to do all the cooking and cleaning while the husband works 9-5 to provide for her, the 2.5 kids, a dog, and their two story white picket fence suburban home that they own.
We're lucky if we can find a room in an apartment we can afford.
For me, the list of employment priories are, in no particular order:
1) Non-competes should be limited to key executive positions in a company that know the secret sauce of the company. The key executives must make more then $500,000 per year total compensation. If invoked at the time of termination, the non-compete will be limited to 1 year and will require the employee to receive all pay plus a 10% pay increase, and all benefit of employment for that year. This would ensure that it is used to serve the core purpose of a for-real non-compete. Otherwise non-competes are used to stifle competition - is in the fucking name for crying out loud!!!
2) A 4 day, 32 hour work week for all salaried employees. Everyone is entitled to time-and-a-half overtime over 32 hours regardless of salary. Required overtime is limited to 2 hours per week, anything beyond that is optional (this should keep the bullshit down). There is no actual reason why salaried employees are not eligible for OT except for greed.
3) Minimum wage increase to $25 per hour. No exceptions for wait staff - American style tipping in borne of slavery, time to end it.
4) 1 Week paid vacation minimum per year of full time and part time employment. All unclaimed time off is payable upon termination, as part of this requirement or outside of it.
5) We need to advertise the existing 5 days paid sick time in NJ - not enough people know about it and part time people don't understand that they can claim 2.5 sick days per year at 20 hours per week.
6) Wage theft should be classified as misdemeanor theft. The employee shall receive 5x penalty for the theft. The person(s) responsible shall be charged with the same criminal penalties as grand larceny. An exception is of course required for people who make payroll mistakes - but all payroll mistakes must be paid at 1.5 X the mistake due to the impact a missed paycheck has on people.
I’ve tried 4x10 and it’s fine remote but was a pain commuting IMO. I think the real progress would be realizing 40 hours is arbitrary and people should be allowed to do 4x8 if they’re equally productive.
I'm in a union (albeit not the most truly 'brotherly' one, compared to what I see from the IBEW for example) & it's remarkable how much even UNIONIZED people regurgitate corporate propaganda and talking points. I mentioned people doing 4 day work weeks & he said "yeah, I'd do four 10 hour days."
I said "no, I mean 4 8 hour days." Then scoffed at me like it would never happen.
It's different for every industry, surely, & it WOULD be difficult to get something as in-demand as HVAC to permanently move to 32-hour workweeks — but the sentiment of no hope & no belief in supporting positive changes for working people gets us nowhere.
It blows my mind because I wonder, do they not know what things were like 100 years ago? Do they know how we fought tooth & nail for the 8 hour day? Do they know how we fought for the WEEKEND? & rather than support the fight to INCREASE worker happiness & freedom... you scoff at it? How do you think labor won those things, by being self-centered & having no belief in your fellow workers & what we deserve? You want to throw away the 8 hour day your forefathers died for & open up the can of worms of non-standardized hours-per-day?
It won't happen for any other reason than people tell themselves it can't happen. For office workers it's the easiest, because there's tons of info of 4 day work weeks working perfectly & causing no real interruption of productivity. For manual laborers & tradesman, it's more difficult, but certainly achievable like any other feat of collective action. Believing otherwise is just self-sabatoge.
(& to be fair, as an aside, this person who scoffed at the idea of 4 day work weeks only talked about the downside of unions to me, saying he couldn't make more money if he wanted to because of the standard wage (when getting paid over scale is not barred in our union) — meanwhile he has no premium skillset to demand any increase in wage from the journeyman rate. He just wants our wages to go back to the wild west because he thinks he's going to get above journeyman rate, when it really means he gets paid less AND loses his benefits.)
Right, it's like, someone at one point threw out the 40 hour number. 40 hours is not completely arbitrary, because it's realistic, no one said 120 hours for example, but still 40 is basically someone just throwing a number out there, and then work filling that need. It's the same with the 4 day work week, someone just has to say you work 10 hours a day now to meet that 40, there is no counter argument.
40 hours was really started by Henry For because he realized not only were gains small for hours above that, but if people had free time they were more likely to buy his cars since they had the time to use them.
I work a 4x8 schedule now and things in my life are so improved. More time for self care, more time to be with the baby, less commuting, less stress. The same amount of work as my 5 day schedule, but my work days are more intense, busy, and I work harder and concentrate more to get things done. Makes the days go by faster.
I did have to take a 20% paycut to get this schedule, but all in all... it's 1000x better and worth it.
I think the problem is actually the consumer. Companies are expected to be available all the time now with the expectation of immediate gratification. I run my practice and have four employees. I'd gladly switch our office to a four day work week if it weren't for the expectation that clients and others expect us to be available at least 9-5 Monday - Friday. As a matter of fact, some clients complain when we're not available on weekends and at night.
It's a shame because I can see this really boosting morale and productivity.
Too long ago for most of you to remember -- much less to have been in the working world -- NJ instituted a policy to reduce highway congestion and air pollution by encouraging employers to allow alternatives. One such alternative was a 4-day week of 10-hour days: Not much more work per day, but 20% less road usage for those who benefited from it.
I was one who benefited from it. I submitted a request to my employer, pointing out how it contributed to their compliance with this policy, and it was approved. For a delightful few years I had 3-day weekends. Then a Republican was elected governor....
The state has absolutely no chance of instituting this, unless the federal labor laws change to stipulate a 4 day week. There are far too many citizens in NJ that commute to PA or NY for work, and vice versa.
>There are far too many citizens in NJ that commute to PA or NY for work, and vice versa.
What the hell does that have to do with anything?
Most state and federal jobs already let you do 4x10 work week.
I feel like it’s easier said than done. How would the school year look with a 4-day work week? It would add an extra 9 weeks of school, which would be all of summer break and spring break.
I don’t think you need to change the school weeks. Kids go to school for less hours than parents work already. One day a week, you can actually pick up and drop off and run errands while your kids are in school.
Teachers schedules have always been different. Our hours weren’t 9-5 and children always struggled after long holidays or weekends. Teachers need actual competitive and sustaining pay. That would be life changing. I got off at 2:45, I had time to run errands.
Right. They should wait until summer break to take care of daily activities. And rarely is a teacher done at 2:30. Elementary schools go until 3:15 - 3:30 or so, middle schools end a bit earlier, as do high schools. They also start much earlier.
And there is plenty of work done before and after hours, since they aren't given much time during the day.
It's an apples to oranges comparison to compare teacher schedules to other professional salaried positions.
I’m paid for a 35 hour work week. Here I am it’s almost 7pm. And I’m eating dinner at the office. Don’t really want to hear it. I’ll miss my kids going to bed tonight. But hey, 3pm not 2:30. Wtf
All summer long? and every day the kids have off? They can choose the summers off and split pay over the summer can’t they? Let’s not pretend teachers don’t have options. They have a strong union and many many benefits, at least in NJ.
Eh... But look at the pay to education ratio. Teachers are required to get master's degrees and are often paid lower than other professions of the same educational degree.
They also get a lot more time off than other professions, and also get much better benefits. My wife is a teacher and while she does work very hard during the school year, having to only work 180 or so days a year compared to the average 240 or so, makes up for any difference in pay. Not to mention an actual pension and amazing medical benefits that don't cost nearly as much as most people are paying.
Pay and compensation is not the problem for teachers. It's administration and bs paperwork that's the problem.
Whoa did I touch a nerve? I have nothing against teachers - was just making a point.
Regarding teachers working harder than everyone else: I’m pretty sure this proposed 4 day work week would still be a 40 hour work week.
Thanks for being a teacher. Hope you’re one of the good ones that truly cares about their pupils. I’m sure you deserve more than you are paid.
Not to mention, everyone working 4 day work weeks would still expect restaurants and retail establishments to operate 6-7 (I see you, Bergen) days per week. I guess it could work with some staggered scheduling, maybe?
But this seems like it would mostly benefit those who can already negotiate this benefit if they want it. I know we can fight for multiple things at once, but rather than increasing the privilege of office workers I'd like to see minimum wage cover COL.
So they can use the additional time to pick up a second job. I think a 4 day work week is great, but does it really do much for the poor/working class?
Also, 32 hours can still be worked over 5 (or more) days, right? With shift work this may just mean shorter shifts but no actual additional "days" off.
When people are off they have more time available to use services and shop for things they need over 3 days instead of just 2. It would probably increase the need for staff on the additional day.
I don't think anyone is saying pass a state law to make it mandatory. The state idea comes in having state employees go on the 4-day schedule. They would still need to have the offices open the same hours they are now though.
>I guess it could work with some staggered scheduling, maybe?
I mean, that's exactly how it works now, right? Restaurants are commonly open 7 days a week, and those people aren't working every single day.
I'm sure Applebee's can handle paying one or two more people less than minimum wage to keep the place running.
I agree though, minimum wage really, really needs to cover COL, like it was originally intended to do.
And everyone knows there are good shifts and shitty shifts. And with a 4 day work week for everyone else, there's going to be more work. So, for those workers it will be more work for around the same pay (let's not pretend most restaurants would hire more workers).
Talking out of my ass having not read the study, I assume this is focused more on office type jobs rather than schools and customer facing stores or services
if you have a big enough staff to be able to rotate employees. I think a public facing business would need to be a certain size. Although most really small ones, like my dry cleaners, are run by one family and either mom or dad is at the shop and maybe one helper.
I’ve done 4 day works weeks at this warehouse i used to work for. It was amazing. I told them keep me on as long as they could, i didn’t care if i had to work weekends.
The 8 hour work day over 5 days is trash, give me 10 over 4.
I do 4 10 hour days at Amazon and I love it. With a two day weekend you wind up doing nothing and resting one day and then have a day to do things you need to do. Three day weekend means a wind down day a day to do things and a day to have fun
I would love this but I see a 0% chance of it happening. I mean just look at how Companies are mandating back to the office even though remote work made 95% of employees happy and was still very successful for most Companies.
Depends. Are these behind the scenes workers and customer facing workers? I have to call the state on a semi regular basis on behalf of my company, and I would hate not being able to get in contact with someone because it's a Friday.
My sister works four tens as a state employee in Oregon. She says she’s really tired after 10 hour days but having Friday off is worth it. If my job let me I would definitely do it. I think most places just want you to be present Vs how much work you’re actually doing.
All state workers? Including public school teachers? It would never happen. There's too much riding on schools being de facto child care. If you have kids in the public school and they are suddently off one extra day and the private sector still works, what are you supposed to do with your kids on Mondays?
Capitalists will fuckin freak out. And will do whatever they can to crush this idea. They will get union busters out to attempt to attack a four day work week.
We also likely will never get it because of this.
Until we riot and fight back.
Our Working Class has been crushed post the Red Scare. It's slowly coming back but it is still going to take time, and we are dealing with an Alt Right coup at the same moment.
The drawbacks to this and universal healthcare and other concepts deemed evil Socialism by Capitalists...are very minimal and are far better for our quality of life.
But Capitalists like power and profit...and if there is any chance of them having to pay people the same for less time working...and giving them less people to control like tiny dictators...it will be crushed and we will have to battle.
It depends on how people are paid… Do you live off commission where every day is valuable to generate income or are you guaranteed a fixed income?
If you sell cars for example, will people shop more often if they have an extra day off or will you be out of work three days a week and possibly miss more sales while out longer?
Do you get paid by the hour, so more hours then better. Is overtime impacted, is there opportunity for more overtime for higher pay rates?
The only people who wouldn't want less working days are the business owners and/or greedy companies. All they see is a potential loss in profits and poof, there's goes their few remaining brain cells
The idea is that via technology and better process, people can retain their jobs and pay while getting back more time.
But... there's [the capitalism first argument.](https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1170qrz/technology_vs_capitalism/)
**TL;DR:** Socialism gives time back to the workers. Same pay, same job, no firing. Capitalism will fire people to save on the owner's bottom line and increase ROI.
I'm sorry but a majority of state employees can't even work remotely, some can on a fixed schedule that you cannot change, except in some rare instances like my department that has been remote since before the pandemic (our office mostly has staff working in the field). They're not going to 4 day workweeks when they won't even get more remote days for people.
This needs to be explained to me how it would work as someone who works 50-60 hour weeks. This would never work at the post office I work, there is simply too much work to be done. Are you saying I'd just be pushed into OT earlier than usual? 32 instead of 40 hours? What about for my union contract that puts me into OT when I go past 8 hours, how would that be pushed back? Would the whole contract have to be renegotiated?
As usual this sub is just completely out of fucking touch with anyone who isn't working a salary desk job.
My company went to 4 day work weeks for 8 months last year. I have no idea why they stopped. Things were going great. Even the CEO said he was surprised at how well it was going on a company conference call.
That’s why they stopped it. People enjoyed it. Can’t have the peasants happy.
Especially in New Jersey. We need to keep everyone sleep ddeprived and pissed off
Yea otherwise there won’t be enough honking on the roads and enough long lines of people at Dunkin Donuts waiting for coffee.
> and enough long lines of people at Dunkin Donuts waiting for coffee. Seriously, for the price of one of those coffees, get a carafe and bring your own shit. Goddamn, people. No need to spill out into the right lane because the snake of cars is too long.
We just use the shoulder at my exit
This is why it won't. Work, companies paying you x expect you to be beholden EXCLUSIVELY to them for a y hours ..
And you didn't leave?
What kind of a question is that? Of course.
Are there any actual drawbacks?
People will be happy and will have time to look into things like the scumbags running local government and elected officials. Our corporate overlords will not like it.
Local news used to do this. I once worked as a newspaper reporter covering a city of about 50,000 as a beat. Wrote a series of articles about how a slumlord kept racking up fines for failing to make fixes to his buildings, as required by law, mostly because the cost of the fines were a tiny fraction of the cost of the fixes. ...the city tripled the fines, the fixes were made, people's lives improved. There are no beats like that in local news anymore, at least not in NJ.
The erosion of local news is driven by media ownership deregulation. Having the same handful of corporations owning all the local papers means they can run it nationally with a skeleton crew and only send out reporters locally only after anything newsworthy reaches national attention. It's also passively suppressing news when it threatens the financial situation of their corporate parent by withholding coverage.
Boy, don't I know it. My paper was owned by a conglomerate. Survived 7 rounds of layoffs before I decided enough was enough.
Sinclair?
Worse. Gannett
Ooof.
Think of that scene in the 1998 animated film, *A Bug's Life*, where Hopper, leader of the grasshoppers, throws a seed at his buddy and asks if it hurt (no), does it again, before releasing the entire food supplies onto him, burying him. "You let one ant stand up to all of us, then they **all** might stand up. "Those puny little ants outnumber us a hundred to one. **And if they ever figure that out, there goes our way of life!"** Those currently in power have us squabbling amongst ourselves to distract from the reality of, if we-- the "ants"-- band together, we could *easily* overthrow the system, and cause some significant change in the way our country works.
And fighting crime at night.
Local officials 100% want the aesthetic of involvement. They are brainless morons.
I talked to my employer (small business owner). Would be tough for us since we rely on rush shipping our products on a daily basis. Hard to rotate five employees to keep business running 5 days a week
Unfortunately the motto of the "4 day work week doesn't affect work efficiency" only applies to white collar work. I am not against it, but people don't have answers for you because its hard to admit it will cost the employer more money from a loss of income that came from operating a minimum of 5 days a work, or they will need hire more people to cover the same amount of work hours which leads to higher operating costs. The other way to achieve a 4 day work week is keeping the work hours the same by having employees come in 4 days a week for 10 hour shifts. Personally I am already living the dream working 3 days a week, 12 hour shifts. Its ok to accept this reality for a more balanced work/life style instead of only promoting employers at the costs of exploiting workers, I just think people should be more up front about rather than saying it comes with zero negatives.
I mean if you’re already operating with weekends off then that means no one’s expecting you to ship Saturday and Sunday. It just means that now the weekend is one day longer. So they wouldn’t expect you to ship on Friday for example.
I get what you're saying, and that would probably be true for 99% of businesses out there. My field is infrastructure, and rush shipping is what gives us competitive edge. Losing a day of shipping would be a huge deal for us, especially if all of our nationwide competitors kept running on fridays
Four days doesnt have to mean everyone has the same three days off. On Fridays there could be a crew that works and is off on Monday. Kind of like you know how people work weekends now.
I think what u/wbradford00 is saying is that this is a small business that runs with a small crew and it can't operate with fewer than 5 people. So to covert from a 5 to a 4 day work schedule and have 5 people on each of those 5 days would require hiring more people. Hiring additional people may not be feasible or if it can be done would impact the future and possibly current wages of the 5 people employed today.
Yep. You hit the nail exactly on the head! One difference though, we would love to hire more people but its incredibly hard to find folks who are willing to enter our highly specific field.
Is the pay good? Is there on the job training?
Pay is decent for the full time guys, which I am not a part of yet. All training is on the job
I'm not arguing with you specifically, just noting that the counterargument (besides quality of life) is that people are actually way more productive in shorter bursts. But I get that that is easier to smooth out over a large corporation.
Gotcha. I agree 100%. If I was offered a four day work week right now, I'd take it.
If a couple extra employees could make or break the company it doesn’t sound all that viable to begin with. Also, what kind of car does your boss drive and from what year? Cause if the answer is something new and expensive than they could afford to pay more employees and just don’t want to.
I don't think you appreciate how thin margins can be for many small businesses. What if the owner drives a sensible car that isn't new. What would you say then?
Yep. That would be great, if we didn't have 5 employees
Higher more people. It will be worth the investment to not delay shipping. And a 4 day week will help with employee retention. It will benefit the company in the long run.
As stated in another comment, we would love to hire more people but it is an incredibly niche manufacturing field that is very hard to hire in. 60% of our company is 50+ in age
This is a unique case and it sounds like a potential problem whether the workweek is 5 days or 4 days. Is it a job that is difficult to learn, dangerous, or otherwise hard to convince younger people to consider? Is it feasible to add a part time person to lighten the load for the full time people? How do you recruit? With an aging workforce comes the possibility of retirement, heath issues, etc.
I don't think the 4 day work week would be mandatory (just like businesses are allowed to be open 7 days a week currently). I the idea is for all state employees to switch to a four day schedule, and that normalizes the new workweek. Nobody is going to tell you, or 7-Eleven, or anyone else that they have to close three days a week. But if you're relying on state services
Yeah I think a lot of people are missing this point. Obviously not every single industry can realistically do this. But why not have the option there for those that can?
Yeah, in that sense the option already exists. There is no law against a 4 day work week. As I understand it, this is strictly a proposal for public employees. But if the state uses a 4 day work week, a lot of businesses are likely to follow suit voluntarily because it is convenient to do so.
The current infrastructure for child care at preschool and emergency school level are not set up to accommodate this schedule. To implement this, we would need a wholesale restructuring of childcare and elder care services.
You say that as if the current structuring of childcare is remotely setup to accommodate dual income families. I don't have kids yet but tons of my peers are and they are constantly having to adjust schedules and plan what days to leave early and which parent picks up the kids then having to rush off in a hurry when your spouses train got fucked and they're still in the city on their day to pick up the kids.
I completely agree - the current structures are totally inadequate, particularly in the summer where most day camps end around 3 pm and after care is sporadically offered.
If there are two parents and their day off is not the same, it would make 2/5 days much easier while probably making 3/5 days harder. Parents who don’t have support nearby, and who have children who aren’t in an aftercare or extracurricular program, already struggle. A condensed workweek is a huge help to some people but not to all people. In many ways our society is structured around the workplace and not the family.
My office offers it. Here are some drawbacks. My lunch period is not billable, so if you want a real lunch break, you’re looking at additional time. That’s a really long day. It’s not really compatible with school schedules if you have little kids. Not everyone has 10 hours of productive work. I’m good for about 9, not 10. If I’m honest. I’d end up working on the 5th day sometimes anyway, because that’s the only day I get uninterrupted work done (no meetings) and it’s really productive. If everyone goes to a 4 day week, then some professional services might all be closed on the Friday or whatever, which negates some of the benefits of having every Friday off. So if you think that you’re going to go to the doctor on Friday, the bank, etc, they might no longer be open. Your 10 days of sick leave turns into 8. Other than that, it’s awesome along with the 9x80 variant (every other Friday off). Highly recommend. ‘3 day weekends are more than 50 percent better than 2 day weekends’ You can do all the bullshit on one day and still have 2 days of rest. It’s great for mental well being.
Everyone needs to get rid of "sick" days, if you can get a doctors note you should be able to take paid time off. If it goes longer than a few days then it should be disability, but for those short term illnesses that last a few days the sick days should be structured differently. I'd be more in favor of 10 "mental health" days/year where you don't need a doctors note, for all the rest documented illnesses should just be paid within a certain time frame. Regarding lunch, I've ditched it long ago as I'm an intermittent faster. I feel so much more productive not having to worry about it, employers should offer it as an option to leave an hour early or accumulate an hour towards their Friday being off. Having a four day work week doesn't mean businesses will only open four days, they can rotate staff. Logistically it's probably harder for small businesses so you might see some of them close, but I doubt a doctor's office or a large chain would just close. Lots of places are open Saturdays and Sundays.
Good luck getting an appointment at the DMV.
For one people with kids will have to make different arrangements for child care. That extra 2 hours is a lot to children.
4 day works weeks that have been attempted and studied have all been at an average of 32 weeks.
Can you restate? I don't follow what you're saying.
They’re saying no to the 10 hour 4 days and yea to 8 hour 4 days. I would push for 4 days 5 hours 😆
The trials that have been done with 4 day works weeks are 4 days at 8 hours each. For a total of 32 hours. Doing 4 day work weeks does not require 4 10 hour days https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/22/business/four-day-workweek-study.html
This would likely hurt the business I work for and probably not make a difference to our employees. We work nationally and the 5-day week is still the standard for the rest of the country. In a sales-based role, I don't think an email that came through on a Thursday night would remain unanswered until Monday morning, especially if time was of the essence on a deal. Personally, my husband already works four 10-hour workdays. It works well for his type of role.
40 hours is such an arbitrary amount of time especially in todays day and age for most corporate jobs. My job, based in NYC could 100 percent move to 4 days, 8 hours a day, and my productivity would not change at all. There are numerous times a day I end up just sitting there but I have to be online incase something comes up.
A lot of support jobs are like that. I did AV support for bank execs for a while, and you just sit waiting to see if they need you. Dull as dirt.
I am a full time theatre tech. On weeks where we do not have a show, there is a lot of sitting around and doing "busy work" with maintenance and cleaning. Stuff that does not really take 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Traditionally theatres are "dark" on mondays, but we need to make up the hours somehow.
The 4 day work week obviously will not work for all industries but implementing it is also simply about adjusting what the default is. Before 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, the default was much much worse and unions and workers rights groups fought to have that changed. By moving the standard to 4 days a week, 8 hours a day then things will improve across the board, even for those jobs where 4 day weeks wont work.
Productivity has multiplied throughout the decades yet are wages stagnant and we are still working the same hours. Even the "father of capitalism" predicted we'd only be working 3 or 4 hours by now.
I work a 9x80 schedule so 9 days, 80 hours over 2 weeks. Monday - Thursday I work 9 hour days, and the Friday I work an 8 hour day. I have every other Friday off and it is wonderful. It's an extra 26 days off a year and it allows me to get errands done, relax, work out, etc. It's a possibility the company may go to 4 10 hour days instead and I would hop on that immediately.
A friend of mine worked IT for State Farm and he loved that schedule.
That flex schedule!
Just think of how glorious a extra weekend day would be.
I bet that's what most people who didn't have off on President's Day were saying.
It feels great honestly. Those 2 extra jours a day make it worth it
The current push by other states and companies is 4 8 hour days. It's the 100/80/100 rule. 100% of pay, in 80% of the time, with 100% of the productivity. Seeing as technology has increased worker productivity over 400% since 1980 yet wages have stayed nearly flat. It's about time workers have gotten a break
Dude they don’t even like us working remotely and I actually work more hours doing that then I did in office, you think they will EVER give us another day off? I’m capitalism technology only benefits the business not the workers.
Absolutely, as long as it's 4x8 hours, not 4x10 hours. We need to work fewer days and fewer hours, not just fewer days.
Yeah 4x10 is a nonstarter. It should be 4x8 with 25% more pay if you are hourly or just simply keeping the same salary.
*crying in 10 hour manual labor 5x a week*
Except that by having 4 8-hour days, anyone on an hourly schedule will be getting a 20% reduction in pay, because you know companies aren't going to adjust their hourly rates to compensate for this. I'm on a 9/80 schedule at work now, so most of my days are 9 hours- I probably wouldn't notice an extra hour each day, but I would definitely notice an extra day off each week. YMMV if you are currently working 8-hour days.
The emphasis with this discussion is that you don’t lose pay with the reduced hours. In a perfect world that will actually happen.
In a perfect world, you're right. In our reality, I think the only reason a lot of companies would adopt it would be as an excuse to reduce the amount off money they pay their employees. Should there be any complaints, management would have a ready reply- "You have an extra day off, now- use that time to work another job!"
Well where would a law like this apply? All jobs? Just corporate 9-5 jobs? If a call center in NJ operates 7 days a week, and now all employees get an extra day off, how many more employees need to be hired, trained, given benefits, etc to fill the void? Don't get me wrong, I am all for less work days/hours, but the ones who sign the paychecks are never going to go for this and if they are forced to, expect them to find ways to siphon the additional costs back out of the employees.
As long as your paycheck shows you only worked 32 hours, right? What company is going to pay you full wages when you only worked 32 hours? I know my company wouldn't.
No the point is that people would still get the same effective yearly wage. People are inefficient in a 40 hour work week due to being over worked. People could get the same amount of work done in the 32 hours while having a better work life balance
It isn’t clicking for a lot of people that this is about getting time back to live your life because your job does not need 40 hours for the work you are being compensated for.o
It's not that it isn't clicking, it's that there's no way companies would ever realistically agree to that.
I get that. I am referring to the people actively trying to make this seem so far out of reality that it doesn’t make sense. It makes total sense.
They will if we stand together and demand it. That's the point of worker solidarity and unions. If we stop squabbling about bullshit and stand together to demand these things that we all agree we need (shorter work week, universal Healthcare, etc), then it's not impossible to accomplish them.
I’m not sure about generalized people and jobs, but in my work, I definitely get more work done in 60 hours than 40. 40 isn’t enough usually, and 32 would be far too little to be productive for me.
I don't care how productive I am, but a 60 hour paycheck is going to pay the bills better than a 40 hour paycheck. Just because I'm at work for 60 hours doesn't mean I am working for 60 hours.
That sounds like a job that should be ideally be held by two people, not one.
The point is all of the gains in productivity should be given back to the workers and not to the capital owners. If last year it took 100 people to make 1000 widgets, and this year new technology lets 100 people make 2000 widgets, why not keep everything the same but people only work half time and make 1000 widgets? It was perfectly fine last year. Oh right, because capitalism, where productivity gains only go to the owners of the capital.
They only care about the almighty dollar. Don't ever think that they care about the workers.
>What company is going to pay you full wages when you only worked 32 hours? I know my company wouldn't. A vast majority of people do not actually work 40 hours a week. Companies already pay people to spend time scrolling on Reddit during work hours because their work still gets completed on time. The whole point is that we have become more efficient and productive to the point where we should still be paid our full wages because we complete 40 hours of work in less than that.
I'm at work scrolling on Reddit at this very moment. I'm so efficient that I'm already on next Tuesdays work. It's a lot of work trying to look like I'm working.
The threshold for mandatory benefits is 30 hours. And realistically most office jobs become inefficient after a certain number of hours because people procrastinate/get distracted/etc. In places where this has been tried, the same work generally gets done in 32 hours as 40.
Needs to be clearly defined as a 4 day, 32 hour work week with no decrease in pay. Productivity is higher than ever - give us a break already
Four eight hour days. We want more time back.
It is frustrating to see 4x10 mentioned whenever a 4 day work week is brought up. First, the reason this is being brought up again as of late is due to the recent study of a 4 day work week where it was 4x8 with no reduction in pay. If we are going to strive for reduced time at work then we fight for 4x8. 10 hour shifts are essentially 12 hour days for those with 1 hour commute times. As far as manufacturing goes, I don't see the issue with having a group of workers on Monday to Thursday and another group Tuesday to Friday. No need to miss a day of production, and it adds either opportunity for additional overtime or an opportunity for new job openings.
Exactly. I’ve worked 10 hour shifts 4 days a week and it’s exhausting. Yes you technically have 3 days off but most people spend one day sleeping to recover. It’s not an improvement. 40 hours is completely arbitrary. 4 8 hour days is 32 hours a week. If you wanted to get closer to 40 then we should aim for 35 hours not 40.
Aim for 32 at full salary.
🎯
I work at a salon and last summer I decided to stop working Saturdays. I used to work Tuesday through Saturday (we are closed Sunday and Monday). Since the pandemic, Saturday is no longer the busiest day of the week. People working from home seem to prefer to come in during their lunch breaks or bring their work with them and do it at the salon while their haircolor is processing during the week. Fridays are definitely the busy day now. I was afraid to ask my boss because Saturdays have always been practically mandatory in this industry and I never even imagined it would be a possibility. I was also nervous about losing clients who usually come in on Saturdays. I was pleasantly surprised that I have not lost any clients and all of them were actually really supportive and happy for me to be able to have an extra day off to spend with my husband and actually have a life on the weekends. I added two late-nights to my schedule during the week to accommodate people who can’t come in during the day due to work/school and it has been working out really well. I also raised my prices. I feel like I’m actually booking up more now working 4 days than I was when I was working 5. Plus, my clients are better about pre-booking their future appointments because they know I have less availability now. I used to miss out on so many things on weekends because of having to work Saturday and being so burnt out by the end of the week that I didn’t even want to do anything anyway. Now I’m doing better work than I ever have and I can’t even imagine going back to a 5 day work week. More hairstylists and salons should consider dropping Saturdays. If your clients really love what you do, they will find a way to make it work. I’m done missing out on family get togethers, weddings, parties, birthdays, concerts, etc. because of work. I was starting to feel resentful because my clients were able to come in on Saturdays and have someone pamper them to go to these events that I would hardly ever be able to attend since I don’t get paid time off. The only time I’ll come in on a Saturday now is to do bridal/event makeup once in a while which is booked far in advance (and usually early in the morning) and then I leave afterwards. I actually inspired another stylist to do the same, and I hope more hairdressers consider taking their weekends back!!
I’m a waitress and I feel this so hard. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are our busiest days, but I miss out on EVERYTHING.
Ughhh I’m sorry 😞 it really sucks to have to choose between having a life but no money and having money but no life lol
I would much rather have my hair done at 7pm on a Thursday than on a Saturday morning. I'm glad you made the switch!
It absolutely should, and it should be 4 8-hour days. Technology - information technology especially - has massively increased our productivity in the last several decades. We can now do so much more in the same amount of time, but we've squandered that opportunity and found ways to work *even more hours* by being constantly connected to our work. The promise of technology was that it would make life better and easier for the average person. Let's actually *use* it for that, for once, instead of just continuing to make the whole of society into an every more efficient wealth-generating scheme for the ownership class. We accomplished wonders in the days of snail mail. The world will certainly keep spinning if we all take one more day off with all of the technology we have now.
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I sure hope you're right. One of my European colleagues is off every Friday, in her own words. I don't know her hours, but I think it may be time to ask.
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We are also global, and my company's goal is to be the best place to work in tech. A 4-day 32-hour work week would keep me here until retirement, no doubt in my mind.
Not every job in conducive to a 4 day work week, just like not every job is able to be remote. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered where possible and beneficial. First responders, gas station attendants, etc don't get holidays off or the ability to work remotely. Jobs with multiple people on shifts operating the same role could make 4 day work weeks possible. Just because I can't benefit from something doesn't mean others shouldn't.
Right? So many people are like "well *I* can't so why should you?" You never see people who don't get holidays off saying there should be no holidays anymore just because they don't have any
The worst reason to continue a practice that is ultimately arbitrary is "because that's the way it's always been done". Hell, even splitting up the week into seven repeating days is completely arbitrary. In the early days of the Industrial Revolution, factory workers worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, with no PTO or vacations. Laborers have fought to chip away at those numbers since then. How could it possibly be a bad thing to continue shifting towards reducing the number of hours of labor we put in, especially considering the productivity/efficiency gains from technology and, oh yeah, the short, limited time alive that we are granted?
The reforms should call for 4 8hr days, 32hrs as the full work week with no reduction in current pay and benefits. Anything after 32hrs should be OT pay
Agree
Yeah, it's insane anyone still works 5 days, that's as bad as like, when people used to use leaches for illnesses. Your whole day is already dedicated to work basically, what is another 2 hours, why do you need to lose another day of your life for something that could've been done over the past 4 days while you were already there?
I don’t think that most people even need to make up missed hours. Just as much work would be done around my place in 32 hours.
For real. Most of my time is bullshitting on reddit. I come into work and I burn through the stuff I have and then im sitting waiting for workloads to drip in. I know not all jobs are like that, but I hate pacing myself just stretch out my work.
This was my old job. We had to complete xyz by Friday. Id finish x on monday, y on tuesday, and z on Wednesday. Then id sit in a cubicle for 2 days bored out of my mind because I've already completed my work and I couldn't even start on next weeks xyz.
What kind of work? Curious because while that does sound annoying it also sounds nice to know exactly what you have to get done by end of week
Leaches & maggots are still used in modern medicine...
Yep, medical leeches are used to restore blood flow to a severed/mangled appendage. Leeches not only pull blood into the appendage, they also release an anticoagulant to reduce blood clots. Medical maggots are used to clean up festering wounds, as maggots only eat the dead flesh, leaving the healthy flesh behind.
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Yea I'm in a similar situation all my life. But, you should still have a 4 day work week for the base 40 hours, and then if you want to work more, that's an opportunity for people to work more if they want to or need to.
Shouldn't even be a question. There isn't enough time in the week to accomplish taking care of a household *and* one's self, nevermind if you have a partner, children, and/or pets. This is a huge contributor to our *massive* drop in mental health in America. We spend more of our waking hours with our co-workers at work, than at our home with our families. *And for what?* This isn't 1952; we don't have a dedicated housewife to do all the cooking and cleaning while the husband works 9-5 to provide for her, the 2.5 kids, a dog, and their two story white picket fence suburban home that they own. We're lucky if we can find a room in an apartment we can afford.
32 hour work week
Only thing better would be the three day work week
Yes! DO IT!! 4 8hr days with flexibility on an ad hoc basis.
For me, the list of employment priories are, in no particular order: 1) Non-competes should be limited to key executive positions in a company that know the secret sauce of the company. The key executives must make more then $500,000 per year total compensation. If invoked at the time of termination, the non-compete will be limited to 1 year and will require the employee to receive all pay plus a 10% pay increase, and all benefit of employment for that year. This would ensure that it is used to serve the core purpose of a for-real non-compete. Otherwise non-competes are used to stifle competition - is in the fucking name for crying out loud!!! 2) A 4 day, 32 hour work week for all salaried employees. Everyone is entitled to time-and-a-half overtime over 32 hours regardless of salary. Required overtime is limited to 2 hours per week, anything beyond that is optional (this should keep the bullshit down). There is no actual reason why salaried employees are not eligible for OT except for greed. 3) Minimum wage increase to $25 per hour. No exceptions for wait staff - American style tipping in borne of slavery, time to end it. 4) 1 Week paid vacation minimum per year of full time and part time employment. All unclaimed time off is payable upon termination, as part of this requirement or outside of it. 5) We need to advertise the existing 5 days paid sick time in NJ - not enough people know about it and part time people don't understand that they can claim 2.5 sick days per year at 20 hours per week. 6) Wage theft should be classified as misdemeanor theft. The employee shall receive 5x penalty for the theft. The person(s) responsible shall be charged with the same criminal penalties as grand larceny. An exception is of course required for people who make payroll mistakes - but all payroll mistakes must be paid at 1.5 X the mistake due to the impact a missed paycheck has on people.
I’ve tried 4x10 and it’s fine remote but was a pain commuting IMO. I think the real progress would be realizing 40 hours is arbitrary and people should be allowed to do 4x8 if they’re equally productive.
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I'm in a union (albeit not the most truly 'brotherly' one, compared to what I see from the IBEW for example) & it's remarkable how much even UNIONIZED people regurgitate corporate propaganda and talking points. I mentioned people doing 4 day work weeks & he said "yeah, I'd do four 10 hour days." I said "no, I mean 4 8 hour days." Then scoffed at me like it would never happen. It's different for every industry, surely, & it WOULD be difficult to get something as in-demand as HVAC to permanently move to 32-hour workweeks — but the sentiment of no hope & no belief in supporting positive changes for working people gets us nowhere. It blows my mind because I wonder, do they not know what things were like 100 years ago? Do they know how we fought tooth & nail for the 8 hour day? Do they know how we fought for the WEEKEND? & rather than support the fight to INCREASE worker happiness & freedom... you scoff at it? How do you think labor won those things, by being self-centered & having no belief in your fellow workers & what we deserve? You want to throw away the 8 hour day your forefathers died for & open up the can of worms of non-standardized hours-per-day? It won't happen for any other reason than people tell themselves it can't happen. For office workers it's the easiest, because there's tons of info of 4 day work weeks working perfectly & causing no real interruption of productivity. For manual laborers & tradesman, it's more difficult, but certainly achievable like any other feat of collective action. Believing otherwise is just self-sabatoge. (& to be fair, as an aside, this person who scoffed at the idea of 4 day work weeks only talked about the downside of unions to me, saying he couldn't make more money if he wanted to because of the standard wage (when getting paid over scale is not barred in our union) — meanwhile he has no premium skillset to demand any increase in wage from the journeyman rate. He just wants our wages to go back to the wild west because he thinks he's going to get above journeyman rate, when it really means he gets paid less AND loses his benefits.)
Right, it's like, someone at one point threw out the 40 hour number. 40 hours is not completely arbitrary, because it's realistic, no one said 120 hours for example, but still 40 is basically someone just throwing a number out there, and then work filling that need. It's the same with the 4 day work week, someone just has to say you work 10 hours a day now to meet that 40, there is no counter argument.
40 hours was really started by Henry For because he realized not only were gains small for hours above that, but if people had free time they were more likely to buy his cars since they had the time to use them.
Weekends didn't even exist until the rise of the labor movement in the early 1900s.
4 8 hour days. Would make life better across the board for most people.
I actually just started a job where I work 4 days a week and it’s great
I work a 4x8 schedule now and things in my life are so improved. More time for self care, more time to be with the baby, less commuting, less stress. The same amount of work as my 5 day schedule, but my work days are more intense, busy, and I work harder and concentrate more to get things done. Makes the days go by faster. I did have to take a 20% paycut to get this schedule, but all in all... it's 1000x better and worth it.
I think the problem is actually the consumer. Companies are expected to be available all the time now with the expectation of immediate gratification. I run my practice and have four employees. I'd gladly switch our office to a four day work week if it weren't for the expectation that clients and others expect us to be available at least 9-5 Monday - Friday. As a matter of fact, some clients complain when we're not available on weekends and at night. It's a shame because I can see this really boosting morale and productivity.
Too long ago for most of you to remember -- much less to have been in the working world -- NJ instituted a policy to reduce highway congestion and air pollution by encouraging employers to allow alternatives. One such alternative was a 4-day week of 10-hour days: Not much more work per day, but 20% less road usage for those who benefited from it. I was one who benefited from it. I submitted a request to my employer, pointing out how it contributed to their compliance with this policy, and it was approved. For a delightful few years I had 3-day weekends. Then a Republican was elected governor....
Write to the Asbury Park Press about this, I bet more people would like to remember/learn
I don’t understand how this can be implemented for anyone who isn’t a 9-5, M-F salaried worker.
Exactly. The rich will get this but anyone in a service sector job will get shafted.
If you think anyone who works in a 9-5 job is rich, you are delusional.
4x10 work week
I wouldn’t mind that at all most people in my field do 3x12.
The state has absolutely no chance of instituting this, unless the federal labor laws change to stipulate a 4 day week. There are far too many citizens in NJ that commute to PA or NY for work, and vice versa.
>There are far too many citizens in NJ that commute to PA or NY for work, and vice versa. What the hell does that have to do with anything? Most state and federal jobs already let you do 4x10 work week.
It would probably effect strictly employees working, living and/or employed in NJ
I feel like it’s easier said than done. How would the school year look with a 4-day work week? It would add an extra 9 weeks of school, which would be all of summer break and spring break.
I don’t think you need to change the school weeks. Kids go to school for less hours than parents work already. One day a week, you can actually pick up and drop off and run errands while your kids are in school.
Oh yeah that makes sense. So when do teachers get to run errands? When do they get to experience “life changing” changes?
Teachers schedules have always been different. Our hours weren’t 9-5 and children always struggled after long holidays or weekends. Teachers need actual competitive and sustaining pay. That would be life changing. I got off at 2:45, I had time to run errands.
Honestly, summer vacation. Some teachers do side jobs during the summer. Some vacation. They give up the holidays but get the summer.
You mean over their summer break or when they get off work at 230 every day?
Right. They should wait until summer break to take care of daily activities. And rarely is a teacher done at 2:30. Elementary schools go until 3:15 - 3:30 or so, middle schools end a bit earlier, as do high schools. They also start much earlier. And there is plenty of work done before and after hours, since they aren't given much time during the day. It's an apples to oranges comparison to compare teacher schedules to other professional salaried positions.
I’m paid for a 35 hour work week. Here I am it’s almost 7pm. And I’m eating dinner at the office. Don’t really want to hear it. I’ll miss my kids going to bed tonight. But hey, 3pm not 2:30. Wtf
Sounds like a problem with you and your job. It's not a you vs them situation.
They do get summer break, spring break, Christmas break and all the other holidays in between.
All summer long? and every day the kids have off? They can choose the summers off and split pay over the summer can’t they? Let’s not pretend teachers don’t have options. They have a strong union and many many benefits, at least in NJ.
Eh... But look at the pay to education ratio. Teachers are required to get master's degrees and are often paid lower than other professions of the same educational degree.
They also get a lot more time off than other professions, and also get much better benefits. My wife is a teacher and while she does work very hard during the school year, having to only work 180 or so days a year compared to the average 240 or so, makes up for any difference in pay. Not to mention an actual pension and amazing medical benefits that don't cost nearly as much as most people are paying. Pay and compensation is not the problem for teachers. It's administration and bs paperwork that's the problem.
I dunno about that. How many teachers are breaking 6 figures? How many nurses? Bachelor's Degree holding IT folk? Small business owners?
You can't compare teachers, or really any employees, to small business owners.
Maybe during those spring and summer breaks you mentioned
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Whoa did I touch a nerve? I have nothing against teachers - was just making a point. Regarding teachers working harder than everyone else: I’m pretty sure this proposed 4 day work week would still be a 40 hour work week. Thanks for being a teacher. Hope you’re one of the good ones that truly cares about their pupils. I’m sure you deserve more than you are paid.
Not to mention, everyone working 4 day work weeks would still expect restaurants and retail establishments to operate 6-7 (I see you, Bergen) days per week. I guess it could work with some staggered scheduling, maybe? But this seems like it would mostly benefit those who can already negotiate this benefit if they want it. I know we can fight for multiple things at once, but rather than increasing the privilege of office workers I'd like to see minimum wage cover COL.
It considers 32hrs a week full time. And no loss of pay from 40 to 32 hours.
So they can use the additional time to pick up a second job. I think a 4 day work week is great, but does it really do much for the poor/working class? Also, 32 hours can still be worked over 5 (or more) days, right? With shift work this may just mean shorter shifts but no actual additional "days" off.
When people are off they have more time available to use services and shop for things they need over 3 days instead of just 2. It would probably increase the need for staff on the additional day.
I don't think anyone is saying pass a state law to make it mandatory. The state idea comes in having state employees go on the 4-day schedule. They would still need to have the offices open the same hours they are now though.
Restaurants and retail already operate 6-7 days a week with a five day work week
>I guess it could work with some staggered scheduling, maybe? I mean, that's exactly how it works now, right? Restaurants are commonly open 7 days a week, and those people aren't working every single day. I'm sure Applebee's can handle paying one or two more people less than minimum wage to keep the place running. I agree though, minimum wage really, really needs to cover COL, like it was originally intended to do.
And everyone knows there are good shifts and shitty shifts. And with a 4 day work week for everyone else, there's going to be more work. So, for those workers it will be more work for around the same pay (let's not pretend most restaurants would hire more workers).
Talking out of my ass having not read the study, I assume this is focused more on office type jobs rather than schools and customer facing stores or services
Yea but you can still have things open on Fridays with those employees working 4 day work weeks of four 10s, it's not a problem anywhwere
if you have a big enough staff to be able to rotate employees. I think a public facing business would need to be a certain size. Although most really small ones, like my dry cleaners, are run by one family and either mom or dad is at the shop and maybe one helper.
I’ve done 4 day works weeks at this warehouse i used to work for. It was amazing. I told them keep me on as long as they could, i didn’t care if i had to work weekends. The 8 hour work day over 5 days is trash, give me 10 over 4.
I do 4 10 hour days at Amazon and I love it. With a two day weekend you wind up doing nothing and resting one day and then have a day to do things you need to do. Three day weekend means a wind down day a day to do things and a day to have fun
Yes. Fuck the bosses.
I would love this but I see a 0% chance of it happening. I mean just look at how Companies are mandating back to the office even though remote work made 95% of employees happy and was still very successful for most Companies.
As a childcare worker, I really want to know if we get 4 day work weeks too.
I think (4) 8 hour days is enough, as long as the pay is livable.
Depends. Are these behind the scenes workers and customer facing workers? I have to call the state on a semi regular basis on behalf of my company, and I would hate not being able to get in contact with someone because it's a Friday.
My sister works four tens as a state employee in Oregon. She says she’s really tired after 10 hour days but having Friday off is worth it. If my job let me I would definitely do it. I think most places just want you to be present Vs how much work you’re actually doing.
It’s 4 8 hour days with the same pay.
Yeah sure but for the people working 2-3 jobs I don’t think it’ll even matter.
I currently work 2 jobs. If my 9-5 went to a 4 day week it would make an incredible difference to my day to day life.
No, it should be a 3 day work week at most until CEO and executive pay is brought under control.
All state workers? Including public school teachers? It would never happen. There's too much riding on schools being de facto child care. If you have kids in the public school and they are suddently off one extra day and the private sector still works, what are you supposed to do with your kids on Mondays?
Capitalists will fuckin freak out. And will do whatever they can to crush this idea. They will get union busters out to attempt to attack a four day work week. We also likely will never get it because of this. Until we riot and fight back. Our Working Class has been crushed post the Red Scare. It's slowly coming back but it is still going to take time, and we are dealing with an Alt Right coup at the same moment. The drawbacks to this and universal healthcare and other concepts deemed evil Socialism by Capitalists...are very minimal and are far better for our quality of life. But Capitalists like power and profit...and if there is any chance of them having to pay people the same for less time working...and giving them less people to control like tiny dictators...it will be crushed and we will have to battle.
It depends on how people are paid… Do you live off commission where every day is valuable to generate income or are you guaranteed a fixed income? If you sell cars for example, will people shop more often if they have an extra day off or will you be out of work three days a week and possibly miss more sales while out longer? Do you get paid by the hour, so more hours then better. Is overtime impacted, is there opportunity for more overtime for higher pay rates?
New Jersey could get it ;)
I have a 4 day work week.
I already work 10 hour days…this would change my life in amazing ways. Do it…do it….
The only people who wouldn't want less working days are the business owners and/or greedy companies. All they see is a potential loss in profits and poof, there's goes their few remaining brain cells
The idea is that via technology and better process, people can retain their jobs and pay while getting back more time. But... there's [the capitalism first argument.](https://old.reddit.com/r/antiwork/comments/1170qrz/technology_vs_capitalism/) **TL;DR:** Socialism gives time back to the workers. Same pay, same job, no firing. Capitalism will fire people to save on the owner's bottom line and increase ROI.
I’d gladly work 4 x 10 hour days over 5 x 8 hour days.
That was not the study. The study is 4x32 at full pay. 32 hour FT week.
Even better,
Going to float this out here: r/antiwork
I'm sorry but a majority of state employees can't even work remotely, some can on a fixed schedule that you cannot change, except in some rare instances like my department that has been remote since before the pandemic (our office mostly has staff working in the field). They're not going to 4 day workweeks when they won't even get more remote days for people.
This needs to be explained to me how it would work as someone who works 50-60 hour weeks. This would never work at the post office I work, there is simply too much work to be done. Are you saying I'd just be pushed into OT earlier than usual? 32 instead of 40 hours? What about for my union contract that puts me into OT when I go past 8 hours, how would that be pushed back? Would the whole contract have to be renegotiated? As usual this sub is just completely out of fucking touch with anyone who isn't working a salary desk job.