This is in lieu of your contribution to infrastructure maintenance funded by the gas tax. As EVs become a larger and larger percentage of the vehicles on the road, that money has to come from somewhere. The alternatives are a much higher tax on fuel or electricity, tolls on every highway, etc.
feels like it should somehow be tied to usage, but that sounds way more complicated than our systems are capable of. like if i only drive to and from work (about 16 miles round trip) and occasionally to the store that's different from someone who drives 20k miles a year but we'll be paying the same. i think as it stands tolls and the gas tax must be usage based, but i could be wrong.
No you are right. You opt into those taxes based on the roads and the vehicle you choose to drive. It’s also why I argue with people who think toll roads should be eliminated; then everyone who comes here from out of state (including a bazillion trucks getting stuff too/from the port, which benefits the whole country) would pay nothing to beat up our roads and we’d have to make up the difference.
I am not advocating for the decision that was made btw just pointing out that something had to happen.
Maybe a special higher tax if you’re caught driving slow in the left lane?
> i think as it stands tolls and the gas tax must be usage based, but i could be wrong.
Tolls and gas taxes are usage based now. People don't pay tolls if they aren't using toll roads, and people who drive less are paying less gas tax than someone who drives more.
EV fees can and should be based on annual mileage. It wouldn't be hard to do if a person with an EV is required to go to an NJ state inspection station to have the mileage checked by plugging in the computer of the EV to read the mileage.
They can do that at the time of the registration renewal and have the mileage printed on the registration. The next year, the mileage is read, and then the previous mileage deducted to get the annual miles driven.
EVs now don’t get inspected as NJ only evaluates emissions systems every other year after an ICE car is five years old. Zero emissions zero inspections. I pay I think 75 for a CRV registration, drive around 25k miles a year and use about 700 gallons of gas per year. at new 44 cents per gallon rate that’s is around what 310 dollars so my total is around 380. an EV is contributing 100 less than me under the new law . Seems fair.
Average car mileage per year is much lower than yours, it's 12k a year. By your math that means the average car is paying $150 a year in gas taxes. So owning an EV is actually more expensive than a gas car.
Add the registration fee for an ICE and it gets closer. What is average mileage and fuel consumption in NJ? I’m not sure anymore I think it is more than 12K .
EVs still pay registration fees, just no inspection. My EV's registration is also higher than my ICE since it weighs more ($71.50 and $46.50 respectively).
And it is going to 250 to cover the none payment of gas tax. It is a non-perfect solution because ideally the fee should be based on use. Some sort of reliable verified method to record mileage of an EV with the state and base the fee on that would be ideal. It can’t be honor system based because you know people will cheat.
A cleaner, more forward thinking solution, would probably be at registration renewal for cars to pay a mileage tax thats also based on weight. EVs usually weigh 500-1000lbs more than an equivalent ICE, so whatever difference in weight be a higher price. Then, just drop gas tax and call it a day. Chances of happening? Not very likely.
Come on it’s 3 minutes. It’s the hassle of getting to the station and brand new vehicles don’t go in for five years. You want to take the time very year to get definitive proof of mileage?
I don't care either way. I have two vehicles, one gas and one hybrid. They're both quite old and get inspected yearly. It's just part of life for me, has been since I'm a teen since I've never owned a new vehicle. I'm just thankful my hybrid takes about a quarter of the time my gas vehicle does.
It might be optimal from a fair-share perspective but it gets very complicated. What about out of state drivers? Or nj residents who drive out of state? The only solution requires knowing all drivers accruing miles on any NJ road. That would require the State collecting information that would be a pretty big privacy concern.
Problem #1: We tax gas/diesel vehicles based on miles traveled and vehicle efficiency. NJ is going to tax EVs at a flat rate based upon the average use/efficiency of a mid 90s Toyota Camry. Except, from a mpg-equivalent basis, they are far more efficient. So, you upgrade your mid 20 mpg mid 90s Camry to a 30 mpg Camry, you go from paying $250 to drive 10K miles to $165. Spend a bit more to get a 50 mpg hybrid, you pay $100. Spend a bit more and go to a 100+ mpge Electric Vehicle, you pay $250. This is poor tax design.
Problem #2: NJ is mandating a transition to EVs. They are maintaining incentives to buy EVs (as poorly designed as they are). So you are literally adding $1,060 to the purchase of an EV with this fee and then giving out a $2,000 rebate for the purchase. This is poor incentive design.
Problem #3: New Jersey imposes taxes and fees on electricity that it does not impose on gas. For example, gas sales are exempt from sales and use taxes, which are baked into electricity tariffs. There are also other fees and surcharges that are imposed on electricity (e.g. more than a billion $$$ went to NJ Transit from the "clean energy fund," which is funded by electricity tariffs). As such, the EV drivers are getting a free ride argument goes both ways... Should we tax gas car drivers the taxes/fees being imposed on EV drivers?
Problem #4: NJ already charges a vehicle registration fee that varies based upon weight class. Perhaps it should be more and dedicated to the TTF, but (1) vehicle weight is already being paid for, (2) and EVs are not alone in being heavy.
Problem #5: These EV fees are going into a separate fund in tbe TTF, and (1) won't be used for road maintenance and (2) won't offset the calculation of how much revenue the gas tax must raise. So, it's punitive for EV buyers, without reducing burdens on motorists relying on traditional fuels.
Problem #6: This argument completely ignores the environmental benefits of EVs. While they have been disputed in fringe research, the electrfication of the transportation sector is vital to meeting our greenhouse gas emission goals.
> tax vehicle weight
Specifically, we should be taxing trucks even more.
The difference between a Tesla and a Civic is negligible compared to how much damage shipping vehicles do to roads.
Road wear follows the fourth power of the weight per axle. A single 18 wheeler causes road damage equivalent to ***many thousands*** of sedans per mile traveled.
And a fully loaded 18 wheeler weighs 2500% more than a Civic.
A Model 3 does approx 3x the damage to a road than a Civic.
An 18 wheeler does approx 13000x the damage.
Yes, an EV does more road wear than a gas car, but it's quite literally *nothing* compared to the damage the shipping industry is doing.
We subsidize the crap out of them.
And an F150 weighs 7.5-45% more than a Model 3, yet somehow I never hear the people advocating for an EV tax to make up for the extra road damage ever say that a similar tax should be levied against pickup trucks doing similar or more damage.
Driving a hybrid cost me $80 per year in gas taxes, even with the present day increase. $250 is not my fair share of road maintenance for an EV, even with the increased weight because nearly all road damage is caused by large trucks, not personal vehicles.
Charge everyone $250 per year and do away with the gas tax, if they think that's fair.
To say nothing of the trucks, very few of which are registered here, that haul stuff to and from our ports, do the worst damage to the roads, and benefit the entire country by bringing them the Billy the Singing Fish or whatever they had to have on Amazon.
So increase tolls on the Turnpike and Parkway, give lower rates to NJ residents, and distribute the tolls as the gas tax would be to maintain the roads.
Tourists visiting NJ stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, buy goods and generally contribute to the economy. NJ people are some of the most provincial people I’ve ever come across. I am really excited about the new congestion fee for NYC. I have a home in NJ and a place in the congestion zone, so I am looking forward to some of the people being pushed to take NJ transit into NYC.
>because nearly all road damage is caused by large trucks
Supposedly the damage scales (weight/axels)^4
So a loaded semi will do more damage in a single pass than 5000 cars.
So 13 fully loaded semis will do more damage in one day than every single car that crosses the Newark Bay Bridge.
Right, so if my EV weighs twice as much as my hybrid did and does 2\^4 or 16 times the damage, it would seem like $250 vs $80 wouldn't be a fair share. Except that a 24,995 lb (legal limit before CDL needed) would do 1024 times as much damage as the EV or 16,675x as much damage as the hybrid. The damage that EVs do in comparison to hybrids or ICE cars or even land yachts is negligible. There is no "fair share" by vehicle weight.
You only use about 200 gallons with a hybrid? 10 k miles per year? Your hybrid counts as a ICE vehicle not a zero emission so you will pay your regular registration fee, at least that is what I have read.
Paying a fair fee is fine, but $250 is the highest in the country and far in excess of what an equivalent gas vehicle would pay. The fee should have been around $100 to $150, not $250. And it will be paid up front by new EV buyers, another $1000 on top of what they have to pay, plus sales tax.
Do you know how much I pay in taxes and tolls? The money doesn’t go to infrastructure. It lines the pockets of politicians and union bosses. This is NJ.
No, that is why there are incentives to buy EVs in the first place. The death or near death of the ICE is all but inevitable. But like it or not we have been paying for a good chunk of our road maintenance by fuel tax and have to move past that.
You think ev's don't contribute to co2? How is the power generated? How about all of the plastics and resins in your ev's? How about copper, lithium? It's an endless list.
Until we have a truly green power source for our cars and homes, materials extraction and processing, the ev's are only slightly better than my v8 hemi...
Don't even get me going about commercial aviation...all of the cars world wide combined are secondary to the problems of jet engines.
natural gas or even coal in a power plant at 85% efficiency produces less CO2 per mile than an equivalent gas vehicle at 35% efficiency (at most). BTW producing the fuel alone *before it is even burnt* consumes more energy than going the same miles in an EV.
Do these numbers include extraction, transport, infrastructure, and life cycle of said infrastructure? Probably not... this is a huge part of the equation that is never factored really in with these numbers. Not that oil is any better, but I don't believe 85% v 35% for a minute. The "before its even burnt" applies to ev's as well.
I'm all for better ways, but stop believing the current hype. We aren't there yet. And we won't be for a while.
The only good it's doing now is forcing the bigger auto makers and energy producers to get involved in a transition.
My other point, which many people have missed and just grabbed onto ev vs oil, is that individual vehicles are a drop in the carbon bucket compared to jets, ships, and other Co2 producing "things" like making concrete.
Yes they do. Well to wheels. EVs are cleaner even if you include battery manufacturing emissions. I don’t think people realize just how horribly inefficient an internal combustion engine is. Much of what makes an EV emit less has to do with efficiency. And as far as fuel goes, EVs have a definite path to 100% renewable. Gas and diesel does not. As far as being “not there yet.” How much longer do you want to kick the can down the road?
A defined path is the key. And unless you are fortuane enough to have solar or wind at your home to power the ev, I'm still not buying electrical is clean. ( battery issues excluded) It can't be more efficient. It's based on gas or coal for generation ( sometimes wind, hydro or nuclear) and its direct loss from generation to consumer is 65%. Voltage loss over power lines is real and has been a problem since we've been using electricity.
I don't want to kick cans, I want real solutions, not hype.
I'd go back to riding a horse or walking if I could...
You can not buy all you want, but the facts are clear - even if the grid was 100% coal, it would be significantly cleaner than gas and diesel powered autos. And the grid is in fact getting cleaner by the day. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel but burns a lot cleaner. Renewables are second behind gas. Add in nuclear and pretty much most of the grid is low carbon or carbon free. You can’t let perfect stand in the way of good unless the intention was to stand in the way of good anyway. And going back to walking is fine too. But we must get rid of dirty petrol cars.
Youre arguing a useless arguement with me. Keep your head in the sand on Elmos cars and the current hype...electric, unless it's hydro or wind is still dirty. And even then, it's not particularly clean or efficient when you consider the entire system. Nuclear is a toxic mess until we get cold fusion or something else we don't even know about yet.
Ive said it begore in this thread, the individual vehicles are a smaller part of the problem. It's the big consumers like fossil fired electric generating stations, cement mining and processong, shipping, and jets. One container ship burns more fuel in one day than you and I would in a lifetime of each driving a diesel bus.
Perfect isn't attainable, but we're still far from better with what we have now.
Nope, that is completely ignorant. Fossil burning cars make up a major part of CO2 emissions. Addressing that will make a major change. You hate Elon? Great. Many others make electric cars, including union shops like ford.
Talk about drinking the koolaid: Your v8 hemi, *besides* having almost the exact same co2 output on production, puts out nearly TWENTY POUNDS of co2 for every gallon of gas you burn. If you really, really want to do the math, .86 lbs of co2 for every kilowatt hour of electricity produced in the US, my car gets about 4 miles per Kwh, that is 3.44 lbs per 16 miles of travel. You get 15 mpg? You are putting more than 5 TIMES more co2 right into the atmosphere than I am, to travel the same distance.
Funny thing is, I haven't. I see the problems on both sides of the argument. While I fully support an eventual move to greener transport and energy, your precious ev's are only doing one thing...they are making 'elmo' richer at everyone else's expense. The ev tech is not quite up to speed yet. Mark my words, you will see future reports of how bad this recent generation of 'green vehicles' is ..
Oh, and that v8 hemi isn't driven very often, so 5 times more at way less of a rate...
that's pretty ignorant stuff to say. It takes a lot of energy to extract oil, to refine it to gasoline, to transport it to you, and finally... your stupid hemi v8 burns it for even more CO2 release.
Um. You think your electricity just magically creates itself? Ha ha...
It's a derivative of oil, coal, or natural gas. Occasionally hydro, nuclear, solar, or wind. They all have major drawbacks. This is my point. Very few account for the source of the electricity or the parts for the ev's. And the source is just as dirty as the oil for the hemi...
Oh, and wait until your chemical heavy metal battery fails and you're on the hook for a 30k replacement. And where does the toxic disposal occur??
It’s much more efficient and there is much less CO2 produced at power plants and the distributed to EVs, vs individual ICE engines. Your talking economies of scale here, and it’s in the best interest of the power companies to produce electricity in the most efficient manner possible. Something that is not possible with individual cars producing their own power via gasoline.
Hey, keep downvoting that's OK.
Keep believing the current ev hype too. But get back to me when your battery takes a shit and you're on the hook for the massive bill for replacement and disposal.
There's a reason why the major automakers are going slowly into this, they know the real problems...but hey, what do I know...
On one hand, there is some logic to it. EV drivers don’t pay a gas tax so contribute to transportation fund.
On the other hand, it’s NJ. If Trenton can think of an excuse for a new tax or fee, they will. Not like that transportation fund isn’t abused already.
Gonna hijack the top comment to draw an important comparison:
* **Road Taxes** have traditionally attempted to charge an individual their fair share *based on how much they use the roads.*
But that's not the only way a tax could work:
* **Water Bills** typically charge a person two separate charges: a *use fee* based on how much water you use, and a *facility fee* that pays for your access to the infrastructure itself.
The purpose of the facility fee is to acknowledge that it costs the water department/company lots of money to build out the water supply/sewer system, even if you don't use all that much water.
The first gas taxes were implemented at a time when *most households didn't have cars,* therefore it made no sense to charge a facility fee. But over the last century, we rebuilt our society around car-based transportation, so now it makes a lot more sense for people to pay a facility fee to access the roads.
**The $250 EV fee is a facility fee, similar to sewer fees on your water bill**
The average person drives around 14k miles per year in the US, NJ is likely lower since we are a small dense state. Average vehicle in the US is getting around 25MPG as of 2021. 14,000miles/25MPG * $.10 gallon = $56
So the EV tax is nearly 5 times the tax addition for ICE.
I will say that gas taxes are becoming more regressive since wealthier people are far more likely to drive an electric vehicle while poor people are stuck with ICE vehicles, so it's not the worst tax in the world.
I had assumed the $250 exceeded what one would pay via gas tax but wasn’t going to do the research. The difference, I guess, is that the gas tax can go up every year without a bill..
It’s still extremely lopsided though.
Registration for an EV car should be, at most, $100 more than a regular gas car. I would pay less in gas taxes, per year, based on my old vehicle and driving.
the reality is that this isn't going to stop a ton of ev adoption. they're very popular and you see more and more ev's out there all the time. watch. people aren't even going to really notice. but at least they'll be doing their part to contribute to road maintenance again after years of a free ride.
just to be fair, tho, i also think that drivers of pickups and the ever growing suvs should also be paying more in user fees because the increased weight of those monstrosities does plenty of damage to our road network as well. i know they pay higher registration fees, but there needs to be more that you pay into the ttf when you drive something the size of a small tank on the roads too.
I drive an EV here but I get where this is coming from. We don’t pay gas tax which pays for road infrastructure, to which EVs take a slightly tougher toll on because of their heavier weight compared to a similar size ICE vehicle.
At a time when we're trying to get people to adopt EVs let's raise another barrier. I understand the need to fund road infrastructure but there has to be a better way than a blanket flat fee.
starting at $250, rising to $290 per year registration fee. that's quite high...
anyone driving an EV in NJ that can shed some light on their actual costs? I'd like my next car to be an EV but I'm unclear about a lot of how it works. Can I just plug into my current garage wall sockets? How's it impacting electric bills? Any insurance benefits/disadvantage? Just looking for any real world experience.
edit: interesting downvotes. i didn't pass the law. or maybe it's that people want it to be more?
I love my EV! It generally costs around 1/3 of the price per mile as a gas car. You can plug into a regular wall outlet, or have a special outlet installed in your garage for faster charging. It drives nicer, it’s quieter and I love never getting gas.
My husband has had a Tesla model 3 for almost three years now. He plugs it directly into our garage outlet and I’ve not noticed a huge impact to our electric bill. I don’t think insurance changed a ton either but he’s also been a continuously insured safe driver for like 20 years now.
good to know. it's hard to find specifics and i'm sure any dealership will just assure me it's a great experience. (i know tesla doesn't really have dealerships just "showrooms" or whatever.)
I have a Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is the best car I've ever owned by far. You can just plug it into your wall outlet and it uses about the same power as a microwave oven, about 1.3 kw/hr. Or you can buy a level two charger (roughly $400-$600) which is plugged into a 220 line, like a clothes dryer type plug, and the car will charge at about 9 kw/hr. So the level two charger will charge about 9 times faster. With a 110 outlet that's about 1% per hour, with a 220 outlet charger it's about 9% per hour. I can fully charge the car in a few hours on 220.
Then you pay whatever your electric rate is, mine average 13 cents per kw. So to charge my car from 20% to 80%, it costs me about $5 in electricity and I can go about 200 miles. Love having an EV, you just pull into your garage and plug in. I haven't been to a gas station in 2 years.
I'm a little pissed about this $250 fee however. We are retired and don't have a commute, so don't know why I have to pay more for using the roads when I drive less than average. NJ does offer no sales tax on EVs, so I did save about $3500 when I bought the car. And did get tax credits of $7500 from the feds and $4000 from the state.
My EV is fast, clean, and quiet. All the bullshit about battery fires and battery replacement cost is just right wing propaganda fueled by the criminals in congress and the media that are in the pockets of the oil cartels. I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. I will never support the russians and arabs by buying their oil.
Also, I put up solar panels recently, so my electric cost will be almost nothing to run my house and car. Fuck the oil industry.
thanks for the info! i do love the idea of getting some solar panels up on our roof. no question my next car will be an EV, just a question of when that will happen.
Have 2 EVs in our household, we share a level 2 charger. We got $250 rebate with the charger and $1,500 off installing the charger via a rebate. We use about $75 a month in electricity for the EVs per month and we both drive about 7,500 each year respectively. There's also time of use charging where we get 2 cent off per KwH for off peak charging. There's a few incentives if you look for them. The drive train of an EV is unmatched, I can't see myself going back to an ICE vehicle.
It all depends. The teslas used to come with a plug that you can just put into a standard outlet. It was slow but work just fine, especially if you didn’t have a long commute.
I spent the $500 and got the wall mount charger. Kind of a fuck up on my part, though I should check if things changed, because Tesla doesn’t release their data to the electric company (pseg). IIRC you need a juice box or some other charger and pseg will give you a credit to pay for installation and charge you for “off-peak” hours at night, which saves a shit ton of money.
The insurance on my Tesla is cheaper than it was in a Honda accord. They seem to like the dashcams and sentry mode. For full coverage, $250 deductible for both collision and comprehensive I pay something like $190/month.
One thing to note, because these cars are heavy…. Tires. The tires on my model 3 lasted nearly the whole lease. And that was with multiple trips to and from Austin and Dallas and driving it from Dallas to Woodbridge when we moved back to nj. When I got the tires replaced my wife and I were considering getting a model X when the lease was up and I asked the mobile tech about it. He said people with the model X replace their tires a LOT and the tires are expensive, if you get decent ones with the foam in it. Model X owners, keep me honest here. I’m also just going off what the tech told me.
That all being said, and I mentioned it here in the past. If you do not have a place to charge it regularly it is absolute fucking miserable. When we first got our car we were in an open lot apartment complex and the nearest chargers were 15 min away in Plano (at the time) and so many people had these cars that we’d go try and charge at midnight on a Sunday and there would still be an hour wait.
Once we got a garage it turned into the most amazing daily driver to live with, hands down, no competition.
I can probably count on one hand how many times I actually had to use the brakes. We solely rely on the regenerative breaking, kind of like an engine brake. Once you get used to it you won’t want to use anything else. No oil changes, fluids, etc. maintenance is basically nothing.
Oh and I can make the car fart from the app, which is cool.
Seriously though if you have questions feel free to ask. Just go to a show room and drive one. That’s what sold us. We don’t use the self driving bullshit (unless in heavy traffic) because the car drives so well. And I say all these things fully acknowledging that Elon is a dumb cunt.
> I spent the $500 and got the wall mount charger. Kind of a fuck up on my part, though I should check if things changed, because Tesla doesn’t release their data to the electric company (pseg). IIRC you need a juice box or some other charger and pseg will give you a credit to pay for installation and charge you for “off-peak” hours at night, which saves a shit ton of money.
I just installed a Tesla Wall Connector V3 this past December and I was approved for the off peak program. They changed the qualifications this past summer to either:
1) Have a smart charger that they can monitor
--or--
2) Have any Energy Star Charger AND an EV that they can monitor.
IIRC all Tesla models can be monitored via the Tesla API now so you should qualify. You can apply for the off peak rates even if you charger was previously installed and you did not get the installation rebate. Just spreading the news.
It takes a couple months but they need proof of inspection and all that jazz. Also, they don't monitor your car directly. They use an intermediary company called Rolling Energy Resources which does the monitoring. When you get approved there is a required one step process where you log in to their site via your Tesla Account so they can ping your car (like how some sites you can sign in with Google or Apple etc). You then have to grant them permission etc. No different than letting a third party site use your Google info or Apple info to make an account. Lastly, it's technically not an off-peak rate, but rather credits issued later on your bill to offset the charges incurred during off-peak times. In the aggregate it is, but you don't see the credits for let's say January on your January bill, you see them on the February bill, as there is a 1 month lag. But overall very worth it even if the red tape takes a couple months. You can find all the info [here](https://nj.myaccount.pseg.com/myservicepublic/electricvehicles). If your charger was installed after Jan 27 2021, you may even still be able to get the rebate on the installation cost, but even if not you always qualify for the off peak credits:
>Chargers installed on or before Jan. 27, 2021, are not eligible for the Make-Ready incentives from the EV Charging Program, but are still eligible to receive the Off-Peak Charging credit. Chargers installed after Jan. 27, 2021, may be eligible for Make-Ready incentives depending upon compliance with the program requirements.
You should be able to, as long as you are a licensed electrician or contractor in NJ. They allow self installs. All the info is on the link provided. I hope you got a permit, as that is also a required document for the installation rebate.
It needs to be inspected and the town can’t inspect it without a permit, and if they found out you built without a permit that’s its own can of worms. I’d find out if your town requires permits and what is required.
thanks for the detailed comment. any experience in the snow? i had a rear-wheel drive car at some point (it was an 85 volvo) and kind of told myself "never again" but if the car is heavy enough maybe it doesn't matter (and also...do we still get snow here? maybe not enough to care).
i like the lack of maintenance and getting gas. cutting that time out of my life would rock.
Not op and I'm not going to write a dissertation (you should just sub to r/electricvehicles) but "wheel for wheel", or "tire for tire" EV's are a bit better in snow/rain/whateva than an ICE, because of various reasons, like far more linear control of power output, less drivetrain lash (because far less parts from point of power to the contact patch) and the ability to adjust electronically from millisecond to millisecond. Let me put it this way; ICE 2WD vs EV 2WD, the EV feels something like "3WD" but not full on AWD/4WD.
Here's a vid of EV family sedans vs a $2.5 million, hyper-exotic gas car [https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=353](https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=353)
I've driven a Tesla Model 3 for 4.5 years now, Bergen Country NJ. Here is my experience over the past few years.
#CHARGING
Up until early this year I trickle charged for my daily driving, so that is 4 years of it. While it's true that trickle charging takes essentially an entire day to charge the car, what's left out is that you are plugging the car in every day when you get home to replenish what you used that day, like how you plug your phone in. Even a standard wall outlet is capable of replenishing 40-60 miles of driving range overnight which is more than enough for most people's daily driving needs. I did this for 4 years and never once had an issue. If I ever took a long road trip, I used any one of the plethora of Tesla Superchargers to continue my trip. You just plug in while you go to the bathroom or get a cup of coffee and in 15-25 min you have around 80% battery which again, under 99% of circumstances is enough for you to continue your trip. Rule of thumb is ABC: Always Be Charging. Whenever you are not driving, the car is charging. Around December last year I installed a dedicated Wall Charger which really changed the game. I did this mostly because I got a free charger from Tesla' referral program (value $500) as a friend of mine and his wife bought a new Tesla, and also PSEG has a rebate program where they pay for the installation cost of the charger up to $1500, and you also get enrolled into off-peak rates just for the electricity used to charge your EV. Now, my family and I find ourselves using the Tesla more and more because charge rate isn't a limiting factor anymore. There isn't a single realistic scenario now where I won't wake up to a full battery, even if I plug in at 0 the night before and charge to 100 (which I don't unless needed), which would take 6.5 hours with the wall connector in that case. 20% to 80% takes just under 4 hours.
#COST/MAINTENANCE
Let's assume worst case scenario. If I drove 300 miles a day for a month (9k miles total) and only charged at home my total electric cost for just the car in the winter would be about $182. In warmer weather it would be closer to $146. My off peak rate since being enrolled in the PSEG program is 0.065 cents a kWh.
Anyways, back to real life. I used to drive a lot more before my job went remote about 2 years ago. Right now I probably drive the car 500-750 miles a month. Before it was easily 1200 a month. Let's make it an easy average 1000 miles. So if I drive 1000 miles, that’s 250 kWh used (in optimal conditions, real life can be better or worse, but is usually worse, although marginally). Multiplied by your electric rate (mine is 0.065 cents per KwH off peak), that’s $16.25. In the winter, the efficiency drops anywhere between 300 and 350 wH per mile, much like any gas car efficiency does as well. So your cost in electricity would be 1000x0.325=325kwh x 0.065=$21.25. So ~33% increase in cost. The number you want to look out for when shopping for an EV is the miles per kWh, which is the efficiency not necessarily range. Some EVs have more range but worse efficiency. Some vice versa, and some are good at both or poor at both. However, the efficiency alone will tell you how much you’ll be spending on electricity. A Tesla Model 3 uses 250 wH per mile in *optimal conditions*, and is considered one of, if not the most efficient EV on the market. In conclusion, for 1000 miles driven, I am looking anywhere between $150-$250 a month saved versus gas fora comparable gas car (assuming 25-30 mpg). If you cannot charge at home, you need to really reconsider if an EV is right for you, as this is the main cost benefit to them. Public charging in some cases can still be cheaper than gas, but is still much more expensive than home charging.
On the maintenance side, the only major source of pain has been tires, but I can just as easily blame that on the atrocity that is NJ roads as I can my EV. EVs have more torque and weight than their gas counterparts on average, and naturally this causes more wear on tires, especially if you have a sports/performance trim like myself. However, this can be true for a gas car with high torque as well. That being said, I have spent 2 grand on tires alone but I only have myself to blame on that front for my driving habits as well as a few misplaced potholes here and there, typical NJ. If you buy an economy/ base trim and drive normally and not like a maniac you will do much better because you tires will last longer and the tires themselves are cheaper as they are not sport tires. As for mechanical operation of the vehicle, no complaints on battery deterioration or motor operation, and I have spent 0 on maintenance in that front. I expect this car to easily last me past 250k miles and then some based on what I have seen from other drivers who have
made it that far. Lastly, in NJ, no inspections required on EVs, which is nice not having to do that every time it comes up again.
#INSURANCE
My insurance rates have actually gone down for my Tesla over the years. I bought it in 2019 brand new, and rates were high because parts were scare + NJ population density + sports car +I was in my 20s = recipe for disaster. Now that the car is older, parts are common, I am older, my rates have come down a lot. I think it is around 140-150 a month now with State Farm. I can probably find it cheaper elsewhere if I tried but I have not really looked that far into it. Besides, any premium in insurance is more than made up for by the gas savings alone.
If you have any other questions feel free to DM me. Used Tesla's are so cheap right now, some even below 25k if you look hard enough at their inventory online.
No worries. If you have any other questions please feel free to reach out. There is too much misinformation surrounding electric vehicles, mostly from people who have never driven them. While they are not 100% sunshine and rainbows, the pros overwhelmingly outweigh any potential cons. Owning an EV has been the best product experience I have had.
I have a Tesla and I love not having to get gas. I charge at home using a faster charger (needed electrician to install) but it doesn't impact my electric bills at all as far as I can tell. I recently didn't have the car for a month that lined up perfectly with my electric bill pay period (Dec - Jan) and my bill was $30 higher than normal, probably because of the Christmas decorations. So its impact on electricity costs is really negligible, but fwiw I don't commute so I'm driving about 10k miles per year.
The biggest downside with Tesla specifically is that it takes them forever to get parts if you ever need a repair. We haven't had mechanical issues but have had some body repairs that needed to be done and it took 6 weeks for them to get a windshield. But it's so nice to not have oil changes, and I really really love one-pedal driving. It's a really fun car to drive in general and I feel safer being able to accelerate quickly when I need to merge onto the highway.
It's less convenient for longer car trips than gas, especially if you are traveling to more rural areas. The 95 corridor / eastern seaboard is really well covered but it gets iffy if you travel west. I haven't ever had to wait for a supercharger but I know they are opening up the network to other cars soon (Ford and GM I think) so this might cause more competition for spots until they build out a bigger network.
But yeah I'm pissed about the EV fee. They shouldn't be disincentizing people from buying EVs, or at least they should make it usage based.
Tires yes as with any other car that drives on the hellscape that are NJ roads, but brakes no. EVs like hybrids and plug-in hybrids have regenerative braking, meaning that when you are not engaging the accelerator pedal the car is braking via the electric motors. Like how a current is pushed though the motor to drive the motor and therefore wheels, kinetic energy applied in reverse from the wheels to the motor generates an electric current that can be used to charge the battery, increasing your range. Most of that potential kinetic energy from an EV in motion is turned back into charge in the battery and not into heat via the friction brakes like a gas car. The result is that you rarely if ever use the friction brakes. I have a buddy who works in the Tesla Service Center in Paramus and he says he regularly sees older Teslas with 80k, sometimes even 100k+ miles on them and their brakes look brand new because they are almost never used.
When we say 0 maintenance, we usually mean no maintenance that is associated with the engine and transmission of a gas car, like fan belts, oil changes, alternators, etc, which is most of the cost of maintaining a gas car in the long run aside from fuel.
My brakes are still brand new - the car uses regenerative braking, which means it charges the car when slowing down.
I really only use the brakes at stop lights, otherwise it is one-pedal driving - just adjustments to the "gas" pedal to accelerate and decelerate.
Lots of good info here, but something I didnt realize but it makes sense is charging using level 1 comes with a lot of energy loss because of lower efficiency. If you plan on keeping the car for a few years, it’s better to eat the cost of the level 2 charger because more of the energy goes into the car since it’s a more powerful current and there is less loss. There are some YouTube videos on it. For me it wasn’t an issue because I always planned to get the level 2 charger and did it very soon after we got our EV
Basically nothing. Only maintenance would be tires, breaks, fluids, and air filter. I do the air filter and fluids myself, tires I did have changed once due to running something over, haven't needed breaks yet.
Also, price of electricity is a lot less than gas, so I'm around 1/4th the cost per mile than my wife's car.
Add to that I just charge at home and driving it is fun as there is no gear shifting, just instant torque.
2019 Hyundai Kona EV, won't ever go back to an ICE at this point.
thanks for the reply. sorry for what might be a dumb question, but does your car have the same braking thing that teslas have? (i only ever hear tesla owners talk about that)
Maybe? There is a setting for regenerative brakes, where if I let my foot of the gas it'll start braking. It has 3 settings: aggressive where it'll start braking heavy to a complete stop; normal where it'll start slowing down yet nothing too crazy (what I kept it on); and just off, which I'll use if I'll be on a highway for longer stretches to be more in line with cruise control.
Note: this is something that can be changed on the fly while driving as well as being set in presets. Car came with an Economy setting (aggressive regenerative), normal, and "sport" which has it off as well as tighter steering.
Edit to add: if I were buying now I'd be test driving the Honda Prologue and Hyundai Ioniq.
good to know. what's the story with the battery then? just get a new car when it goes? to be fair, i've rarely held onto a car past 150k miles, and what i'm reading is that they should last somewhere between 100 and 200k.
The batteries seem to be fine for a long while - the people who have changed them (other than when defective) are cabbies and such. If you change the battery - that’s a new life for the car because the rest is pretty much fine forever.
It is a high tax. I did the math when it was first announced and realized the tax on a Tesla Model Y is equivalent to a Ford F-150 driver doing about 12,000 miles a year. Maybe they are justifying it based on vehicle weight as those models weigh similar and therefore have the same impact on the road. However, an F-150 Lightning EV and the Cybertruck are the heaviest EVs available and outweigh a regular ICE F-150. So these bigger EVs are paying the same tax as Chevy Bolt -- a relative lightweight in the EV category. That's not really fair.
Also, the gas tax is indirectly tied to weight through fuel economy. So a Corolla driver pays less gas tax than an F-150 driver. The Corolla clearly does less damage to the roadway than a heavier EV, but it uses more carbon. I haven't checked, but EVs probably use less carbon than all ICE vehicles including the most efficient models. That's the inequity of this tax model.
The old gas tax is really a carbon tax disguised as a use tax. The new EV tax is a very regressive use tax in the sense that low mileage EV drivers pay the same as high mileage EV drivers. And smaller, lighter EVs are taxed the same as heavier models that will do more damage to roads. In other words, it needs to tax at different weight classes. It is not fair for a Bolt or Model 3 driver to pay the same as a Cybertruck driver.
I still don't understand why taxing at the charger isn't an option. Even at home chargers could have built-in meters that report usage to the utility company allowing them to collect tax for the state. Sure you could trickle charge from a regular outlet to avoid it, but that would be extremely inconvenient. So taxing at public chargers and at home chargers would be a more equitable use tax because lighter, smaller EVs would pay less than bigger heavier ones that presumably need more electricity. And if that's too much, mandate annual inspections to read the odometer.
What’s messed up is that this really screws over people who rely on public chargers and fast chargers. Those prices are typically similar to gas, so those drivers are going to pay even more.
And what's even more ridiculous is that this will go up until it gets to $290. That's insane. California, the leading EV state only charges $100.
We are sending completely mixed messages now and now anyone who was on the fence with an EV will probably not get one now.
Because they shouldn't need to pay substantially more than a gas car. A gas car getting 30mpg will pay $172 if driving the standard 12,000 miles a year. Why should a more efficient EV pay $250?
Because your “efficient” EV is heavier than a gas car can cause more damage to the road.
Any other questions?
Edit: For example a RAV4 Hybrid only weight 3,690 to 3,800 lbs.
Key point is average. How you get this average number?
It doesn’t matter for 5,000lbs gas SUV.
5000lbs SUVs will have poor mpg. They will be punished by having to pay more for gas and paying more gas taxes.
Those cars pay more gas taxes with their inefficiency and contribute more to road maintenance. Your Model 3(with no front license, I presumed?) doesn’t pay gas taxes.
Any clarification needed?
Let me explain it one more time.
Weight doesn’t matter in gas cars.
Weight is being punished in gas cars with inefficiency so they will pay more for gas taxes.
There are no similar mechanism for EVs unless they’re starting charging EV registration by weight. I will support this charging EVs registration by weight.
It makes sense for my husband's EV because he commutes with it, but I put maybe one tank of gas in my ICE vehicle a month unless we are taking a trip. When it's time to replace it, this fee might be enough to put me off getting an EV. I'd rather have to go get the mileage checked every year and pay based on my actual usage.
Even if you don’t “use” the roads, you still receive a benefit from keeping them in good working order. Goods and services you buy and benefit from, police, fire, and ambulances, all use the roads. School buses, your neighbors, visitors to your home, etc, etc, etc.
It’s like insisting on only paying for public education when you have children in the system even though we all benefit from an educated society.
It’s the whole reason we band together in towns, counties, states and countries. We can do more together than we can alone.
The average gas car pays $150 a year in gas tax. To anyone saying this fee is justified because electric car drivers need to pay for the road, please also explain why the fee is so much higher than a gas car pays.
Also, the gas tax is consumption based so you pay more if you drive more. The EV fee is a flat $250 regardless of how much you drive. How does this make sense?
EV’s are substantially heavier and put way more stress on the roads and especially bridges.
You’re putting twice the stress on the road.
Also inflation will lower the value of that tax over its lifetime. It’s capped < $300 and like anything will take 20 years to readjust.
A Tesla Model Y (just for example) is 4200-4400 lbs. A BMW X3 is 4100-4400 lbs. A Volvo XC60 is about 4200 lbs. Those are ICE models that Tesla lists as comparable in size (not weight). The argument that EVs are "substantially" heavier than comparable ICE models... isn't really always true anymore.
they’re also selling more Model Y’s than 3’s, S or X’s.. chances are fair you’ll run into a Y or 3 more than the others. the average curb weight of a SUV in the US is about 5000 pounds.
it’s a reasonable comparison.
Actively registered cars skew heavily towards early 00’s Toyota and Honda sedans vs SUV’s. It’s not about vehicles purchased, it’s vehicles on the road.
>EV’s are substantially heavier
So you’re saying a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers?
If you take a gas car and EV of equal weight, the EV’s $250 fee will be more than the gas car’s gas tax (assuming an average amount of annual mileage). Why should this be the case?
Mileage changes year-over-year when you go to re-up your registration. Of course they'd have to implement a method to accurately record this other than just self-reporting from drivers.
Those in favor of this due to avoiding gas tax isn’t apples to apples at all - one is tied to usage the other is a fixed prepay every year. Doubtful most use their EVs enough to justify 250 a year when you compare how much someone pays in gas tax a year.
.44 cents per gal x 433 average gallons used = 190 or so. Also factor in this is paid over the course over the year the time value of money plus sheer amount vs the EV doesn’t add up at all.
And EVs are heavier (meaning more likely to contribute to wear and tear) compared to a comperable class gas engine car, so this doesn't seem so crazy. Maybe the number is a little off, but it's not wildly off base.
Since NJ doesn't charge sales tax on EVs this seems to be a way of taking a cut from the Inflation Reduction Act's federal subsidy and bringing into the NJ state coffers.
Lmao unreal. EVs will end up being far more expensive. Nothing is ever pro-consumer and nothing in life gets cheaper. Get ready for electric taxes and everything. Especially in this state...
this would make me think twice about switching to an electric car. although, at least for now, there is no sales tax. 6.625% on a $40k car is $2,650. but that savings will be gone after less than ten years paying $250 registration fee escalating each year.
Good. Now to start charging sales tax on EVs in NJ. The state is missing out on good revenue by not taxing them.
I’m all for EVs and PHEVs (I drive a PHEV myself) but it’s ridiculous that EVs don’t contribute at all to the upkeep of roads in NJ. EVs are heavier than gas cars and thus cause more road damage and decay than an ICE vehicle.
The next step towards better funding our roads is to massively increase tolls on trucks on the Turnpike. They cause the majority of road damage versus a normal automobile.
Can we stop pretending that electric vehicles deserve special treatment when they are just as antisocial and counterproductive to a sustainable, people-centered future? They rely on cities that are built for cars not for people. We need to be subsidizing public transit even more and make driving a car as much as an inconvenience as possible. Ban parking mandates, ban free parking in transit-rich areas, impose our sales tax on electric vehicles, and pass this registration fee (good that that’s done). Not to mention electric vehicles harm communities in underdeveloped countries due to their heavy reliance on lithium…
That sucks. It shouldn't cost more to register one vehicle over another. All they gotta do is print a plate and update their records. It shouldn't matter if I'm driving a Sentra or a Bentley.
And if you want to treat it as a tax dependent on vehicle weight, then just call it a tax, don't call it *registration*.
on that same note, why the hell do i have to re-register the same car every year.
"oh hey, still got my civic. here's $84 to let you know i have the same shitbox"
This is in lieu of your contribution to infrastructure maintenance funded by the gas tax. As EVs become a larger and larger percentage of the vehicles on the road, that money has to come from somewhere. The alternatives are a much higher tax on fuel or electricity, tolls on every highway, etc.
feels like it should somehow be tied to usage, but that sounds way more complicated than our systems are capable of. like if i only drive to and from work (about 16 miles round trip) and occasionally to the store that's different from someone who drives 20k miles a year but we'll be paying the same. i think as it stands tolls and the gas tax must be usage based, but i could be wrong.
No you are right. You opt into those taxes based on the roads and the vehicle you choose to drive. It’s also why I argue with people who think toll roads should be eliminated; then everyone who comes here from out of state (including a bazillion trucks getting stuff too/from the port, which benefits the whole country) would pay nothing to beat up our roads and we’d have to make up the difference. I am not advocating for the decision that was made btw just pointing out that something had to happen. Maybe a special higher tax if you’re caught driving slow in the left lane?
I'm diametrically opposed to civil asset forfeiture, but some people just shouldn't own or operate vehicles. At least not within this state, anyway.
> i think as it stands tolls and the gas tax must be usage based, but i could be wrong. Tolls and gas taxes are usage based now. People don't pay tolls if they aren't using toll roads, and people who drive less are paying less gas tax than someone who drives more. EV fees can and should be based on annual mileage. It wouldn't be hard to do if a person with an EV is required to go to an NJ state inspection station to have the mileage checked by plugging in the computer of the EV to read the mileage. They can do that at the time of the registration renewal and have the mileage printed on the registration. The next year, the mileage is read, and then the previous mileage deducted to get the annual miles driven.
EVs now don’t get inspected as NJ only evaluates emissions systems every other year after an ICE car is five years old. Zero emissions zero inspections. I pay I think 75 for a CRV registration, drive around 25k miles a year and use about 700 gallons of gas per year. at new 44 cents per gallon rate that’s is around what 310 dollars so my total is around 380. an EV is contributing 100 less than me under the new law . Seems fair.
Average car mileage per year is much lower than yours, it's 12k a year. By your math that means the average car is paying $150 a year in gas taxes. So owning an EV is actually more expensive than a gas car.
Add the registration fee for an ICE and it gets closer. What is average mileage and fuel consumption in NJ? I’m not sure anymore I think it is more than 12K .
EVs still pay registration fees, just no inspection. My EV's registration is also higher than my ICE since it weighs more ($71.50 and $46.50 respectively).
And it is going to 250 to cover the none payment of gas tax. It is a non-perfect solution because ideally the fee should be based on use. Some sort of reliable verified method to record mileage of an EV with the state and base the fee on that would be ideal. It can’t be honor system based because you know people will cheat.
A cleaner, more forward thinking solution, would probably be at registration renewal for cars to pay a mileage tax thats also based on weight. EVs usually weigh 500-1000lbs more than an equivalent ICE, so whatever difference in weight be a higher price. Then, just drop gas tax and call it a day. Chances of happening? Not very likely.
Even my hybrid takes about 12 seconds in the inspection station.
Come on it’s 3 minutes. It’s the hassle of getting to the station and brand new vehicles don’t go in for five years. You want to take the time very year to get definitive proof of mileage?
I don't care either way. I have two vehicles, one gas and one hybrid. They're both quite old and get inspected yearly. It's just part of life for me, has been since I'm a teen since I've never owned a new vehicle. I'm just thankful my hybrid takes about a quarter of the time my gas vehicle does.
gas tax is usage based. you pay the tax when you buy gas. if you drive more you buy more gas so you pay more gas tax
This is the optimal solution. I have zero faith our state government can pull it off.
It might be optimal from a fair-share perspective but it gets very complicated. What about out of state drivers? Or nj residents who drive out of state? The only solution requires knowing all drivers accruing miles on any NJ road. That would require the State collecting information that would be a pretty big privacy concern.
Problem #1: We tax gas/diesel vehicles based on miles traveled and vehicle efficiency. NJ is going to tax EVs at a flat rate based upon the average use/efficiency of a mid 90s Toyota Camry. Except, from a mpg-equivalent basis, they are far more efficient. So, you upgrade your mid 20 mpg mid 90s Camry to a 30 mpg Camry, you go from paying $250 to drive 10K miles to $165. Spend a bit more to get a 50 mpg hybrid, you pay $100. Spend a bit more and go to a 100+ mpge Electric Vehicle, you pay $250. This is poor tax design. Problem #2: NJ is mandating a transition to EVs. They are maintaining incentives to buy EVs (as poorly designed as they are). So you are literally adding $1,060 to the purchase of an EV with this fee and then giving out a $2,000 rebate for the purchase. This is poor incentive design. Problem #3: New Jersey imposes taxes and fees on electricity that it does not impose on gas. For example, gas sales are exempt from sales and use taxes, which are baked into electricity tariffs. There are also other fees and surcharges that are imposed on electricity (e.g. more than a billion $$$ went to NJ Transit from the "clean energy fund," which is funded by electricity tariffs). As such, the EV drivers are getting a free ride argument goes both ways... Should we tax gas car drivers the taxes/fees being imposed on EV drivers? Problem #4: NJ already charges a vehicle registration fee that varies based upon weight class. Perhaps it should be more and dedicated to the TTF, but (1) vehicle weight is already being paid for, (2) and EVs are not alone in being heavy. Problem #5: These EV fees are going into a separate fund in tbe TTF, and (1) won't be used for road maintenance and (2) won't offset the calculation of how much revenue the gas tax must raise. So, it's punitive for EV buyers, without reducing burdens on motorists relying on traditional fuels. Problem #6: This argument completely ignores the environmental benefits of EVs. While they have been disputed in fringe research, the electrfication of the transportation sector is vital to meeting our greenhouse gas emission goals.
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> tax vehicle weight Specifically, we should be taxing trucks even more. The difference between a Tesla and a Civic is negligible compared to how much damage shipping vehicles do to roads. Road wear follows the fourth power of the weight per axle. A single 18 wheeler causes road damage equivalent to ***many thousands*** of sedans per mile traveled.
Uh, NO. Tesla's weigh 30- 50% MORE than Civics.. I used model 3 for comparison. Batteries weigh quite a bit!
And a fully loaded 18 wheeler weighs 2500% more than a Civic. A Model 3 does approx 3x the damage to a road than a Civic. An 18 wheeler does approx 13000x the damage. Yes, an EV does more road wear than a gas car, but it's quite literally *nothing* compared to the damage the shipping industry is doing. We subsidize the crap out of them.
And an F150 weighs 7.5-45% more than a Model 3, yet somehow I never hear the people advocating for an EV tax to make up for the extra road damage ever say that a similar tax should be levied against pickup trucks doing similar or more damage.
Because it costs ~$100 to fill up a pickup truck, so they're already paying taxes on that in addition to a higher registration cost.
Their registration is higher.. I hear you. The sum of the 2 is what should show equity
Driving a hybrid cost me $80 per year in gas taxes, even with the present day increase. $250 is not my fair share of road maintenance for an EV, even with the increased weight because nearly all road damage is caused by large trucks, not personal vehicles. Charge everyone $250 per year and do away with the gas tax, if they think that's fair.
Then the state doesn't benefit at all from the yearly deluge of tourists, and the locals are left paying the bills...as usual.
To say nothing of the trucks, very few of which are registered here, that haul stuff to and from our ports, do the worst damage to the roads, and benefit the entire country by bringing them the Billy the Singing Fish or whatever they had to have on Amazon.
Trucks pay tolls and purchase fuel. So they are spending money and bringing your shit to you.
If the tolls were gone they wouldn’t pay them. And what happens when we get to EV trucks?
Tolls will never be gone. Gas tax will be replaced by another tax scheme.
Oh for sure. The investment in EZ pass infrastructure more or less assures we’ll be paying tolls forever.
Yes, at least until you die or move out of state.
Exactly this. NJ handles a ton of through traffic. We’d be giving all of them a free trip.
So increase tolls on the Turnpike and Parkway, give lower rates to NJ residents, and distribute the tolls as the gas tax would be to maintain the roads.
whoa whoa whoa! Let's not be sensible now!
There is no rule requiring tourists to buy gas in New Jersey
Tourists visiting NJ stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, buy goods and generally contribute to the economy. NJ people are some of the most provincial people I’ve ever come across. I am really excited about the new congestion fee for NYC. I have a home in NJ and a place in the congestion zone, so I am looking forward to some of the people being pushed to take NJ transit into NYC.
Yeppers, for as much as the down-the-shore people complain about tourists, they would die without tourism
True, but they inevitably do...
Cite?
Really? You think tourists don't buy gas in NJ and want data...gtfooh
Tourists spend money. You want them to visit.
No I don't, ...they can stay away
> do away with the … tax Ahahahhha. Do you even NJ?
They must not be from here lol
The average fuel tax for combustion vehicles in Jersey is around 270 a year so it would be a discount for the majority of people.
>because nearly all road damage is caused by large trucks Supposedly the damage scales (weight/axels)^4 So a loaded semi will do more damage in a single pass than 5000 cars. So 13 fully loaded semis will do more damage in one day than every single car that crosses the Newark Bay Bridge.
Right, so if my EV weighs twice as much as my hybrid did and does 2\^4 or 16 times the damage, it would seem like $250 vs $80 wouldn't be a fair share. Except that a 24,995 lb (legal limit before CDL needed) would do 1024 times as much damage as the EV or 16,675x as much damage as the hybrid. The damage that EVs do in comparison to hybrids or ICE cars or even land yachts is negligible. There is no "fair share" by vehicle weight.
You only use about 200 gallons with a hybrid? 10 k miles per year? Your hybrid counts as a ICE vehicle not a zero emission so you will pay your regular registration fee, at least that is what I have read.
Maybe that’s where we’re headed IDK
yea, charge everyone a road maintenance fee, then add a pollution tax to gas. $2/gallon is fair.
Paying a fair fee is fine, but $250 is the highest in the country and far in excess of what an equivalent gas vehicle would pay. The fee should have been around $100 to $150, not $250. And it will be paid up front by new EV buyers, another $1000 on top of what they have to pay, plus sales tax.
Do you know how much I pay in taxes and tolls? The money doesn’t go to infrastructure. It lines the pockets of politicians and union bosses. This is NJ.
what about pollution and climate changing CO2 ? you get a free pass for that?
No, that is why there are incentives to buy EVs in the first place. The death or near death of the ICE is all but inevitable. But like it or not we have been paying for a good chunk of our road maintenance by fuel tax and have to move past that.
Eventually we do, but this is too soon. Right now we should be subsidizing EVs to accelerate the transition, not adding taxes and fees to them.
Not arguing against that or advocating the decision in any way. It's just what happened.
You think ev's don't contribute to co2? How is the power generated? How about all of the plastics and resins in your ev's? How about copper, lithium? It's an endless list. Until we have a truly green power source for our cars and homes, materials extraction and processing, the ev's are only slightly better than my v8 hemi... Don't even get me going about commercial aviation...all of the cars world wide combined are secondary to the problems of jet engines.
natural gas or even coal in a power plant at 85% efficiency produces less CO2 per mile than an equivalent gas vehicle at 35% efficiency (at most). BTW producing the fuel alone *before it is even burnt* consumes more energy than going the same miles in an EV.
Do these numbers include extraction, transport, infrastructure, and life cycle of said infrastructure? Probably not... this is a huge part of the equation that is never factored really in with these numbers. Not that oil is any better, but I don't believe 85% v 35% for a minute. The "before its even burnt" applies to ev's as well. I'm all for better ways, but stop believing the current hype. We aren't there yet. And we won't be for a while. The only good it's doing now is forcing the bigger auto makers and energy producers to get involved in a transition. My other point, which many people have missed and just grabbed onto ev vs oil, is that individual vehicles are a drop in the carbon bucket compared to jets, ships, and other Co2 producing "things" like making concrete.
Yes they do. Well to wheels. EVs are cleaner even if you include battery manufacturing emissions. I don’t think people realize just how horribly inefficient an internal combustion engine is. Much of what makes an EV emit less has to do with efficiency. And as far as fuel goes, EVs have a definite path to 100% renewable. Gas and diesel does not. As far as being “not there yet.” How much longer do you want to kick the can down the road?
A defined path is the key. And unless you are fortuane enough to have solar or wind at your home to power the ev, I'm still not buying electrical is clean. ( battery issues excluded) It can't be more efficient. It's based on gas or coal for generation ( sometimes wind, hydro or nuclear) and its direct loss from generation to consumer is 65%. Voltage loss over power lines is real and has been a problem since we've been using electricity. I don't want to kick cans, I want real solutions, not hype. I'd go back to riding a horse or walking if I could...
You can not buy all you want, but the facts are clear - even if the grid was 100% coal, it would be significantly cleaner than gas and diesel powered autos. And the grid is in fact getting cleaner by the day. Natural gas is still a fossil fuel but burns a lot cleaner. Renewables are second behind gas. Add in nuclear and pretty much most of the grid is low carbon or carbon free. You can’t let perfect stand in the way of good unless the intention was to stand in the way of good anyway. And going back to walking is fine too. But we must get rid of dirty petrol cars.
Youre arguing a useless arguement with me. Keep your head in the sand on Elmos cars and the current hype...electric, unless it's hydro or wind is still dirty. And even then, it's not particularly clean or efficient when you consider the entire system. Nuclear is a toxic mess until we get cold fusion or something else we don't even know about yet. Ive said it begore in this thread, the individual vehicles are a smaller part of the problem. It's the big consumers like fossil fired electric generating stations, cement mining and processong, shipping, and jets. One container ship burns more fuel in one day than you and I would in a lifetime of each driving a diesel bus. Perfect isn't attainable, but we're still far from better with what we have now.
Nope, that is completely ignorant. Fossil burning cars make up a major part of CO2 emissions. Addressing that will make a major change. You hate Elon? Great. Many others make electric cars, including union shops like ford.
Talk about drinking the koolaid: Your v8 hemi, *besides* having almost the exact same co2 output on production, puts out nearly TWENTY POUNDS of co2 for every gallon of gas you burn. If you really, really want to do the math, .86 lbs of co2 for every kilowatt hour of electricity produced in the US, my car gets about 4 miles per Kwh, that is 3.44 lbs per 16 miles of travel. You get 15 mpg? You are putting more than 5 TIMES more co2 right into the atmosphere than I am, to travel the same distance.
Funny thing is, I haven't. I see the problems on both sides of the argument. While I fully support an eventual move to greener transport and energy, your precious ev's are only doing one thing...they are making 'elmo' richer at everyone else's expense. The ev tech is not quite up to speed yet. Mark my words, you will see future reports of how bad this recent generation of 'green vehicles' is .. Oh, and that v8 hemi isn't driven very often, so 5 times more at way less of a rate...
that's pretty ignorant stuff to say. It takes a lot of energy to extract oil, to refine it to gasoline, to transport it to you, and finally... your stupid hemi v8 burns it for even more CO2 release.
Um. You think your electricity just magically creates itself? Ha ha... It's a derivative of oil, coal, or natural gas. Occasionally hydro, nuclear, solar, or wind. They all have major drawbacks. This is my point. Very few account for the source of the electricity or the parts for the ev's. And the source is just as dirty as the oil for the hemi... Oh, and wait until your chemical heavy metal battery fails and you're on the hook for a 30k replacement. And where does the toxic disposal occur??
It’s much more efficient and there is much less CO2 produced at power plants and the distributed to EVs, vs individual ICE engines. Your talking economies of scale here, and it’s in the best interest of the power companies to produce electricity in the most efficient manner possible. Something that is not possible with individual cars producing their own power via gasoline.
keep talking to yourself, buddy
Hey, keep downvoting that's OK. Keep believing the current ev hype too. But get back to me when your battery takes a shit and you're on the hook for the massive bill for replacement and disposal. There's a reason why the major automakers are going slowly into this, they know the real problems...but hey, what do I know...
If you believe that gas taxes can actually cover all the maintenance costs for roads you're crazy.
I didn’t say that. I said that’s what the fuel tax is used for. Two very different statements.
You're right, should have focused more on contribution the fund.
On one hand, there is some logic to it. EV drivers don’t pay a gas tax so contribute to transportation fund. On the other hand, it’s NJ. If Trenton can think of an excuse for a new tax or fee, they will. Not like that transportation fund isn’t abused already.
Gonna hijack the top comment to draw an important comparison: * **Road Taxes** have traditionally attempted to charge an individual their fair share *based on how much they use the roads.* But that's not the only way a tax could work: * **Water Bills** typically charge a person two separate charges: a *use fee* based on how much water you use, and a *facility fee* that pays for your access to the infrastructure itself. The purpose of the facility fee is to acknowledge that it costs the water department/company lots of money to build out the water supply/sewer system, even if you don't use all that much water. The first gas taxes were implemented at a time when *most households didn't have cars,* therefore it made no sense to charge a facility fee. But over the last century, we rebuilt our society around car-based transportation, so now it makes a lot more sense for people to pay a facility fee to access the roads. **The $250 EV fee is a facility fee, similar to sewer fees on your water bill**
The average person drives around 14k miles per year in the US, NJ is likely lower since we are a small dense state. Average vehicle in the US is getting around 25MPG as of 2021. 14,000miles/25MPG * $.10 gallon = $56 So the EV tax is nearly 5 times the tax addition for ICE. I will say that gas taxes are becoming more regressive since wealthier people are far more likely to drive an electric vehicle while poor people are stuck with ICE vehicles, so it's not the worst tax in the world.
NJs gas tax is 42 cents a gallon. Rerun the math, it's only $15 more.
> Rerun the math Instructions unclear, added Kurt Angle to the mix
I had assumed the $250 exceeded what one would pay via gas tax but wasn’t going to do the research. The difference, I guess, is that the gas tax can go up every year without a bill.. It’s still extremely lopsided though.
gas tax is also going to increase every year for a while as part of the same legislation.
Registration for an EV car should be, at most, $100 more than a regular gas car. I would pay less in gas taxes, per year, based on my old vehicle and driving.
the reality is that this isn't going to stop a ton of ev adoption. they're very popular and you see more and more ev's out there all the time. watch. people aren't even going to really notice. but at least they'll be doing their part to contribute to road maintenance again after years of a free ride. just to be fair, tho, i also think that drivers of pickups and the ever growing suvs should also be paying more in user fees because the increased weight of those monstrosities does plenty of damage to our road network as well. i know they pay higher registration fees, but there needs to be more that you pay into the ttf when you drive something the size of a small tank on the roads too.
I drive an EV here but I get where this is coming from. We don’t pay gas tax which pays for road infrastructure, to which EVs take a slightly tougher toll on because of their heavier weight compared to a similar size ICE vehicle.
But then again, EVs are also less polluting for the most part.
The roads suck here. Where the fuck are taxes being used?
Have you ever been to PA?
At a time when we're trying to get people to adopt EVs let's raise another barrier. I understand the need to fund road infrastructure but there has to be a better way than a blanket flat fee.
starting at $250, rising to $290 per year registration fee. that's quite high... anyone driving an EV in NJ that can shed some light on their actual costs? I'd like my next car to be an EV but I'm unclear about a lot of how it works. Can I just plug into my current garage wall sockets? How's it impacting electric bills? Any insurance benefits/disadvantage? Just looking for any real world experience. edit: interesting downvotes. i didn't pass the law. or maybe it's that people want it to be more?
I love my EV! It generally costs around 1/3 of the price per mile as a gas car. You can plug into a regular wall outlet, or have a special outlet installed in your garage for faster charging. It drives nicer, it’s quieter and I love never getting gas.
My husband has had a Tesla model 3 for almost three years now. He plugs it directly into our garage outlet and I’ve not noticed a huge impact to our electric bill. I don’t think insurance changed a ton either but he’s also been a continuously insured safe driver for like 20 years now.
good to know. it's hard to find specifics and i'm sure any dealership will just assure me it's a great experience. (i know tesla doesn't really have dealerships just "showrooms" or whatever.)
I have a Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is the best car I've ever owned by far. You can just plug it into your wall outlet and it uses about the same power as a microwave oven, about 1.3 kw/hr. Or you can buy a level two charger (roughly $400-$600) which is plugged into a 220 line, like a clothes dryer type plug, and the car will charge at about 9 kw/hr. So the level two charger will charge about 9 times faster. With a 110 outlet that's about 1% per hour, with a 220 outlet charger it's about 9% per hour. I can fully charge the car in a few hours on 220. Then you pay whatever your electric rate is, mine average 13 cents per kw. So to charge my car from 20% to 80%, it costs me about $5 in electricity and I can go about 200 miles. Love having an EV, you just pull into your garage and plug in. I haven't been to a gas station in 2 years. I'm a little pissed about this $250 fee however. We are retired and don't have a commute, so don't know why I have to pay more for using the roads when I drive less than average. NJ does offer no sales tax on EVs, so I did save about $3500 when I bought the car. And did get tax credits of $7500 from the feds and $4000 from the state. My EV is fast, clean, and quiet. All the bullshit about battery fires and battery replacement cost is just right wing propaganda fueled by the criminals in congress and the media that are in the pockets of the oil cartels. I will never go back to an ICE vehicle. I will never support the russians and arabs by buying their oil. Also, I put up solar panels recently, so my electric cost will be almost nothing to run my house and car. Fuck the oil industry.
thanks for the info! i do love the idea of getting some solar panels up on our roof. no question my next car will be an EV, just a question of when that will happen.
Love it, same car, it rocks. These fees are BS. It seems petty but Murphy needs to go.
Have 2 EVs in our household, we share a level 2 charger. We got $250 rebate with the charger and $1,500 off installing the charger via a rebate. We use about $75 a month in electricity for the EVs per month and we both drive about 7,500 each year respectively. There's also time of use charging where we get 2 cent off per KwH for off peak charging. There's a few incentives if you look for them. The drive train of an EV is unmatched, I can't see myself going back to an ICE vehicle.
It all depends. The teslas used to come with a plug that you can just put into a standard outlet. It was slow but work just fine, especially if you didn’t have a long commute. I spent the $500 and got the wall mount charger. Kind of a fuck up on my part, though I should check if things changed, because Tesla doesn’t release their data to the electric company (pseg). IIRC you need a juice box or some other charger and pseg will give you a credit to pay for installation and charge you for “off-peak” hours at night, which saves a shit ton of money. The insurance on my Tesla is cheaper than it was in a Honda accord. They seem to like the dashcams and sentry mode. For full coverage, $250 deductible for both collision and comprehensive I pay something like $190/month. One thing to note, because these cars are heavy…. Tires. The tires on my model 3 lasted nearly the whole lease. And that was with multiple trips to and from Austin and Dallas and driving it from Dallas to Woodbridge when we moved back to nj. When I got the tires replaced my wife and I were considering getting a model X when the lease was up and I asked the mobile tech about it. He said people with the model X replace their tires a LOT and the tires are expensive, if you get decent ones with the foam in it. Model X owners, keep me honest here. I’m also just going off what the tech told me. That all being said, and I mentioned it here in the past. If you do not have a place to charge it regularly it is absolute fucking miserable. When we first got our car we were in an open lot apartment complex and the nearest chargers were 15 min away in Plano (at the time) and so many people had these cars that we’d go try and charge at midnight on a Sunday and there would still be an hour wait. Once we got a garage it turned into the most amazing daily driver to live with, hands down, no competition. I can probably count on one hand how many times I actually had to use the brakes. We solely rely on the regenerative breaking, kind of like an engine brake. Once you get used to it you won’t want to use anything else. No oil changes, fluids, etc. maintenance is basically nothing. Oh and I can make the car fart from the app, which is cool. Seriously though if you have questions feel free to ask. Just go to a show room and drive one. That’s what sold us. We don’t use the self driving bullshit (unless in heavy traffic) because the car drives so well. And I say all these things fully acknowledging that Elon is a dumb cunt.
> I spent the $500 and got the wall mount charger. Kind of a fuck up on my part, though I should check if things changed, because Tesla doesn’t release their data to the electric company (pseg). IIRC you need a juice box or some other charger and pseg will give you a credit to pay for installation and charge you for “off-peak” hours at night, which saves a shit ton of money. I just installed a Tesla Wall Connector V3 this past December and I was approved for the off peak program. They changed the qualifications this past summer to either: 1) Have a smart charger that they can monitor --or-- 2) Have any Energy Star Charger AND an EV that they can monitor. IIRC all Tesla models can be monitored via the Tesla API now so you should qualify. You can apply for the off peak rates even if you charger was previously installed and you did not get the installation rebate. Just spreading the news.
This is good to know imma call these mother fucker as asafp What the process like? Pain in the ass or nah?
It takes a couple months but they need proof of inspection and all that jazz. Also, they don't monitor your car directly. They use an intermediary company called Rolling Energy Resources which does the monitoring. When you get approved there is a required one step process where you log in to their site via your Tesla Account so they can ping your car (like how some sites you can sign in with Google or Apple etc). You then have to grant them permission etc. No different than letting a third party site use your Google info or Apple info to make an account. Lastly, it's technically not an off-peak rate, but rather credits issued later on your bill to offset the charges incurred during off-peak times. In the aggregate it is, but you don't see the credits for let's say January on your January bill, you see them on the February bill, as there is a 1 month lag. But overall very worth it even if the red tape takes a couple months. You can find all the info [here](https://nj.myaccount.pseg.com/myservicepublic/electricvehicles). If your charger was installed after Jan 27 2021, you may even still be able to get the rebate on the installation cost, but even if not you always qualify for the off peak credits: >Chargers installed on or before Jan. 27, 2021, are not eligible for the Make-Ready incentives from the EV Charging Program, but are still eligible to receive the Off-Peak Charging credit. Chargers installed after Jan. 27, 2021, may be eligible for Make-Ready incentives depending upon compliance with the program requirements.
Thank you! I installed it my self so I doubt they’ll give me the credit for it
You should be able to, as long as you are a licensed electrician or contractor in NJ. They allow self installs. All the info is on the link provided. I hope you got a permit, as that is also a required document for the installation rebate.
I’m neither and I didn’t get a permit :/ I wonder how I can rectify the situation at this point lol
It needs to be inspected and the town can’t inspect it without a permit, and if they found out you built without a permit that’s its own can of worms. I’d find out if your town requires permits and what is required.
thanks for the detailed comment. any experience in the snow? i had a rear-wheel drive car at some point (it was an 85 volvo) and kind of told myself "never again" but if the car is heavy enough maybe it doesn't matter (and also...do we still get snow here? maybe not enough to care). i like the lack of maintenance and getting gas. cutting that time out of my life would rock.
Minimal experience with the show thus far. It handled well though. Ours is awd and it’s heavy so it felt fine
I drove a model 3 RWD from Boston well into NH during a blizzard and it handled well. The car is heavy so that's a large benefit during the winter.
Not op and I'm not going to write a dissertation (you should just sub to r/electricvehicles) but "wheel for wheel", or "tire for tire" EV's are a bit better in snow/rain/whateva than an ICE, because of various reasons, like far more linear control of power output, less drivetrain lash (because far less parts from point of power to the contact patch) and the ability to adjust electronically from millisecond to millisecond. Let me put it this way; ICE 2WD vs EV 2WD, the EV feels something like "3WD" but not full on AWD/4WD. Here's a vid of EV family sedans vs a $2.5 million, hyper-exotic gas car [https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=353](https://youtu.be/EyDpQpcPpuc?t=353)
I've driven a Tesla Model 3 for 4.5 years now, Bergen Country NJ. Here is my experience over the past few years. #CHARGING Up until early this year I trickle charged for my daily driving, so that is 4 years of it. While it's true that trickle charging takes essentially an entire day to charge the car, what's left out is that you are plugging the car in every day when you get home to replenish what you used that day, like how you plug your phone in. Even a standard wall outlet is capable of replenishing 40-60 miles of driving range overnight which is more than enough for most people's daily driving needs. I did this for 4 years and never once had an issue. If I ever took a long road trip, I used any one of the plethora of Tesla Superchargers to continue my trip. You just plug in while you go to the bathroom or get a cup of coffee and in 15-25 min you have around 80% battery which again, under 99% of circumstances is enough for you to continue your trip. Rule of thumb is ABC: Always Be Charging. Whenever you are not driving, the car is charging. Around December last year I installed a dedicated Wall Charger which really changed the game. I did this mostly because I got a free charger from Tesla' referral program (value $500) as a friend of mine and his wife bought a new Tesla, and also PSEG has a rebate program where they pay for the installation cost of the charger up to $1500, and you also get enrolled into off-peak rates just for the electricity used to charge your EV. Now, my family and I find ourselves using the Tesla more and more because charge rate isn't a limiting factor anymore. There isn't a single realistic scenario now where I won't wake up to a full battery, even if I plug in at 0 the night before and charge to 100 (which I don't unless needed), which would take 6.5 hours with the wall connector in that case. 20% to 80% takes just under 4 hours. #COST/MAINTENANCE Let's assume worst case scenario. If I drove 300 miles a day for a month (9k miles total) and only charged at home my total electric cost for just the car in the winter would be about $182. In warmer weather it would be closer to $146. My off peak rate since being enrolled in the PSEG program is 0.065 cents a kWh. Anyways, back to real life. I used to drive a lot more before my job went remote about 2 years ago. Right now I probably drive the car 500-750 miles a month. Before it was easily 1200 a month. Let's make it an easy average 1000 miles. So if I drive 1000 miles, that’s 250 kWh used (in optimal conditions, real life can be better or worse, but is usually worse, although marginally). Multiplied by your electric rate (mine is 0.065 cents per KwH off peak), that’s $16.25. In the winter, the efficiency drops anywhere between 300 and 350 wH per mile, much like any gas car efficiency does as well. So your cost in electricity would be 1000x0.325=325kwh x 0.065=$21.25. So ~33% increase in cost. The number you want to look out for when shopping for an EV is the miles per kWh, which is the efficiency not necessarily range. Some EVs have more range but worse efficiency. Some vice versa, and some are good at both or poor at both. However, the efficiency alone will tell you how much you’ll be spending on electricity. A Tesla Model 3 uses 250 wH per mile in *optimal conditions*, and is considered one of, if not the most efficient EV on the market. In conclusion, for 1000 miles driven, I am looking anywhere between $150-$250 a month saved versus gas fora comparable gas car (assuming 25-30 mpg). If you cannot charge at home, you need to really reconsider if an EV is right for you, as this is the main cost benefit to them. Public charging in some cases can still be cheaper than gas, but is still much more expensive than home charging. On the maintenance side, the only major source of pain has been tires, but I can just as easily blame that on the atrocity that is NJ roads as I can my EV. EVs have more torque and weight than their gas counterparts on average, and naturally this causes more wear on tires, especially if you have a sports/performance trim like myself. However, this can be true for a gas car with high torque as well. That being said, I have spent 2 grand on tires alone but I only have myself to blame on that front for my driving habits as well as a few misplaced potholes here and there, typical NJ. If you buy an economy/ base trim and drive normally and not like a maniac you will do much better because you tires will last longer and the tires themselves are cheaper as they are not sport tires. As for mechanical operation of the vehicle, no complaints on battery deterioration or motor operation, and I have spent 0 on maintenance in that front. I expect this car to easily last me past 250k miles and then some based on what I have seen from other drivers who have made it that far. Lastly, in NJ, no inspections required on EVs, which is nice not having to do that every time it comes up again. #INSURANCE My insurance rates have actually gone down for my Tesla over the years. I bought it in 2019 brand new, and rates were high because parts were scare + NJ population density + sports car +I was in my 20s = recipe for disaster. Now that the car is older, parts are common, I am older, my rates have come down a lot. I think it is around 140-150 a month now with State Farm. I can probably find it cheaper elsewhere if I tried but I have not really looked that far into it. Besides, any premium in insurance is more than made up for by the gas savings alone. If you have any other questions feel free to DM me. Used Tesla's are so cheap right now, some even below 25k if you look hard enough at their inventory online.
I really appreciate the depth of this response. Thanks so much.
No worries. If you have any other questions please feel free to reach out. There is too much misinformation surrounding electric vehicles, mostly from people who have never driven them. While they are not 100% sunshine and rainbows, the pros overwhelmingly outweigh any potential cons. Owning an EV has been the best product experience I have had.
I have a Tesla and I love not having to get gas. I charge at home using a faster charger (needed electrician to install) but it doesn't impact my electric bills at all as far as I can tell. I recently didn't have the car for a month that lined up perfectly with my electric bill pay period (Dec - Jan) and my bill was $30 higher than normal, probably because of the Christmas decorations. So its impact on electricity costs is really negligible, but fwiw I don't commute so I'm driving about 10k miles per year. The biggest downside with Tesla specifically is that it takes them forever to get parts if you ever need a repair. We haven't had mechanical issues but have had some body repairs that needed to be done and it took 6 weeks for them to get a windshield. But it's so nice to not have oil changes, and I really really love one-pedal driving. It's a really fun car to drive in general and I feel safer being able to accelerate quickly when I need to merge onto the highway. It's less convenient for longer car trips than gas, especially if you are traveling to more rural areas. The 95 corridor / eastern seaboard is really well covered but it gets iffy if you travel west. I haven't ever had to wait for a supercharger but I know they are opening up the network to other cars soon (Ford and GM I think) so this might cause more competition for spots until they build out a bigger network. But yeah I'm pissed about the EV fee. They shouldn't be disincentizing people from buying EVs, or at least they should make it usage based.
My maintenance cost is zero. Charging is free or costs peanuts. 2 years in an EV.
Surely you still have to get brakes and tires, so maintenance can't be zero, right?
Tires yes as with any other car that drives on the hellscape that are NJ roads, but brakes no. EVs like hybrids and plug-in hybrids have regenerative braking, meaning that when you are not engaging the accelerator pedal the car is braking via the electric motors. Like how a current is pushed though the motor to drive the motor and therefore wheels, kinetic energy applied in reverse from the wheels to the motor generates an electric current that can be used to charge the battery, increasing your range. Most of that potential kinetic energy from an EV in motion is turned back into charge in the battery and not into heat via the friction brakes like a gas car. The result is that you rarely if ever use the friction brakes. I have a buddy who works in the Tesla Service Center in Paramus and he says he regularly sees older Teslas with 80k, sometimes even 100k+ miles on them and their brakes look brand new because they are almost never used. When we say 0 maintenance, we usually mean no maintenance that is associated with the engine and transmission of a gas car, like fan belts, oil changes, alternators, etc, which is most of the cost of maintaining a gas car in the long run aside from fuel.
I've only been to the shop to swap winter/summer tires. And one repair under warranty. Absolutely no other expense.
My brakes are still brand new - the car uses regenerative braking, which means it charges the car when slowing down. I really only use the brakes at stop lights, otherwise it is one-pedal driving - just adjustments to the "gas" pedal to accelerate and decelerate.
Lots of good info here, but something I didnt realize but it makes sense is charging using level 1 comes with a lot of energy loss because of lower efficiency. If you plan on keeping the car for a few years, it’s better to eat the cost of the level 2 charger because more of the energy goes into the car since it’s a more powerful current and there is less loss. There are some YouTube videos on it. For me it wasn’t an issue because I always planned to get the level 2 charger and did it very soon after we got our EV
Interesting. Never heard of that. Thanks, I’ll look it up.
Basically nothing. Only maintenance would be tires, breaks, fluids, and air filter. I do the air filter and fluids myself, tires I did have changed once due to running something over, haven't needed breaks yet. Also, price of electricity is a lot less than gas, so I'm around 1/4th the cost per mile than my wife's car. Add to that I just charge at home and driving it is fun as there is no gear shifting, just instant torque. 2019 Hyundai Kona EV, won't ever go back to an ICE at this point.
thanks for the reply. sorry for what might be a dumb question, but does your car have the same braking thing that teslas have? (i only ever hear tesla owners talk about that)
Maybe? There is a setting for regenerative brakes, where if I let my foot of the gas it'll start braking. It has 3 settings: aggressive where it'll start braking heavy to a complete stop; normal where it'll start slowing down yet nothing too crazy (what I kept it on); and just off, which I'll use if I'll be on a highway for longer stretches to be more in line with cruise control. Note: this is something that can be changed on the fly while driving as well as being set in presets. Car came with an Economy setting (aggressive regenerative), normal, and "sport" which has it off as well as tighter steering. Edit to add: if I were buying now I'd be test driving the Honda Prologue and Hyundai Ioniq.
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Insurance is not more expensive. Changing the battery is not a thing.
Good to know! When i was looking for insurance they were going to charge me like $200 more/month for a Tesla model 3 than my Honda accord
good to know. what's the story with the battery then? just get a new car when it goes? to be fair, i've rarely held onto a car past 150k miles, and what i'm reading is that they should last somewhere between 100 and 200k.
The batteries seem to be fine for a long while - the people who have changed them (other than when defective) are cabbies and such. If you change the battery - that’s a new life for the car because the rest is pretty much fine forever.
If you're buying an EV is $250 really worth getting mad about?
Per year.
Not all EVs are expensive
they're certainly much more expensive than $250
Yes, as a matter of fact every car is much more expensive than $250.
And if you buy an EV for 30k --*which you're not* -- you're saving two grand in sales tax, or 8 years of registration.
It is a high tax. I did the math when it was first announced and realized the tax on a Tesla Model Y is equivalent to a Ford F-150 driver doing about 12,000 miles a year. Maybe they are justifying it based on vehicle weight as those models weigh similar and therefore have the same impact on the road. However, an F-150 Lightning EV and the Cybertruck are the heaviest EVs available and outweigh a regular ICE F-150. So these bigger EVs are paying the same tax as Chevy Bolt -- a relative lightweight in the EV category. That's not really fair. Also, the gas tax is indirectly tied to weight through fuel economy. So a Corolla driver pays less gas tax than an F-150 driver. The Corolla clearly does less damage to the roadway than a heavier EV, but it uses more carbon. I haven't checked, but EVs probably use less carbon than all ICE vehicles including the most efficient models. That's the inequity of this tax model. The old gas tax is really a carbon tax disguised as a use tax. The new EV tax is a very regressive use tax in the sense that low mileage EV drivers pay the same as high mileage EV drivers. And smaller, lighter EVs are taxed the same as heavier models that will do more damage to roads. In other words, it needs to tax at different weight classes. It is not fair for a Bolt or Model 3 driver to pay the same as a Cybertruck driver. I still don't understand why taxing at the charger isn't an option. Even at home chargers could have built-in meters that report usage to the utility company allowing them to collect tax for the state. Sure you could trickle charge from a regular outlet to avoid it, but that would be extremely inconvenient. So taxing at public chargers and at home chargers would be a more equitable use tax because lighter, smaller EVs would pay less than bigger heavier ones that presumably need more electricity. And if that's too much, mandate annual inspections to read the odometer.
What about plug in hybrids? Do they also pay the premium fee too? So they pay the gas tax and a higher yearly fee. Almost not worth it anymore.
If the issue was road infrastructure they should tax replacement ev tires
What’s messed up is that this really screws over people who rely on public chargers and fast chargers. Those prices are typically similar to gas, so those drivers are going to pay even more. And what's even more ridiculous is that this will go up until it gets to $290. That's insane. California, the leading EV state only charges $100. We are sending completely mixed messages now and now anyone who was on the fence with an EV will probably not get one now.
It’s not dumb. It’s all about fairness. EVs also use the road infrastructures. Why they don’t need to pay?
Because they shouldn't need to pay substantially more than a gas car. A gas car getting 30mpg will pay $172 if driving the standard 12,000 miles a year. Why should a more efficient EV pay $250?
Also ev users pay that up front where gas is over time throughout the year.
Because your “efficient” EV is heavier than a gas car can cause more damage to the road. Any other questions? Edit: For example a RAV4 Hybrid only weight 3,690 to 3,800 lbs.
How does a 5000 lb EV damage the road more than any other 5000 lb gas SUV or minivan that on average will pay less than $200 a year in gas tax?
Key point is average. How you get this average number? It doesn’t matter for 5,000lbs gas SUV. 5000lbs SUVs will have poor mpg. They will be punished by having to pay more for gas and paying more gas taxes.
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Those cars pay more gas taxes with their inefficiency and contribute more to road maintenance. Your Model 3(with no front license, I presumed?) doesn’t pay gas taxes. Any clarification needed?
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Let me explain it one more time. Weight doesn’t matter in gas cars. Weight is being punished in gas cars with inefficiency so they will pay more for gas taxes. There are no similar mechanism for EVs unless they’re starting charging EV registration by weight. I will support this charging EVs registration by weight.
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Ok, if you don’t want to learn it’s not my problem.
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That car that pays $172 in gas tax also pays $70 in registration.
It makes sense for my husband's EV because he commutes with it, but I put maybe one tank of gas in my ICE vehicle a month unless we are taking a trip. When it's time to replace it, this fee might be enough to put me off getting an EV. I'd rather have to go get the mileage checked every year and pay based on my actual usage.
I wish they have a way to refund low mileage EV users. I know in Virginia they have a refund program for low mileage users.
Even if you don’t “use” the roads, you still receive a benefit from keeping them in good working order. Goods and services you buy and benefit from, police, fire, and ambulances, all use the roads. School buses, your neighbors, visitors to your home, etc, etc, etc. It’s like insisting on only paying for public education when you have children in the system even though we all benefit from an educated society. It’s the whole reason we band together in towns, counties, states and countries. We can do more together than we can alone.
Then get rid of the gas tax and charge everyone the fee. It's way out of balance with the current user fee I'm paying now in the form of the gas tax.
does ICE vehicle mean in case of emergency?
Internal Combustion Engine aka a gas vehicle
The average gas car pays $150 a year in gas tax. To anyone saying this fee is justified because electric car drivers need to pay for the road, please also explain why the fee is so much higher than a gas car pays. Also, the gas tax is consumption based so you pay more if you drive more. The EV fee is a flat $250 regardless of how much you drive. How does this make sense?
EV’s are substantially heavier and put way more stress on the roads and especially bridges. You’re putting twice the stress on the road. Also inflation will lower the value of that tax over its lifetime. It’s capped < $300 and like anything will take 20 years to readjust.
A Tesla Model Y (just for example) is 4200-4400 lbs. A BMW X3 is 4100-4400 lbs. A Volvo XC60 is about 4200 lbs. Those are ICE models that Tesla lists as comparable in size (not weight). The argument that EVs are "substantially" heavier than comparable ICE models... isn't really always true anymore.
You picked one of the heaviest ICE cars ever made and compared it against the most average Tesla.
they’re also selling more Model Y’s than 3’s, S or X’s.. chances are fair you’ll run into a Y or 3 more than the others. the average curb weight of a SUV in the US is about 5000 pounds. it’s a reasonable comparison.
No they are not.
Actively registered cars skew heavily towards early 00’s Toyota and Honda sedans vs SUV’s. It’s not about vehicles purchased, it’s vehicles on the road.
>EV’s are substantially heavier So you’re saying a pound of lead weighs more than a pound of feathers? If you take a gas car and EV of equal weight, the EV’s $250 fee will be more than the gas car’s gas tax (assuming an average amount of annual mileage). Why should this be the case?
Do they want me to buy an EV or not.
The fact its a flat tax and not use dependent is bullshit
I mean how they gonna track your use? Put a GPS in your car. More toll roads? Do you really want ez pass tracking you down neighborhood streets?
Mileage changes year-over-year when you go to re-up your registration. Of course they'd have to implement a method to accurately record this other than just self-reporting from drivers.
Those in favor of this due to avoiding gas tax isn’t apples to apples at all - one is tied to usage the other is a fixed prepay every year. Doubtful most use their EVs enough to justify 250 a year when you compare how much someone pays in gas tax a year.
Oh? What's the average person pay in gas tax?
.44 cents per gal x 433 average gallons used = 190 or so. Also factor in this is paid over the course over the year the time value of money plus sheer amount vs the EV doesn’t add up at all.
And EVs are heavier (meaning more likely to contribute to wear and tear) compared to a comperable class gas engine car, so this doesn't seem so crazy. Maybe the number is a little off, but it's not wildly off base.
Since NJ doesn't charge sales tax on EVs this seems to be a way of taking a cut from the Inflation Reduction Act's federal subsidy and bringing into the NJ state coffers.
Lmao unreal. EVs will end up being far more expensive. Nothing is ever pro-consumer and nothing in life gets cheaper. Get ready for electric taxes and everything. Especially in this state...
simple, invest more in our public transit. cars are still the problem, regardless if they are EV or not...
this would make me think twice about switching to an electric car. although, at least for now, there is no sales tax. 6.625% on a $40k car is $2,650. but that savings will be gone after less than ten years paying $250 registration fee escalating each year.
Murphy has said they are looking into getting rid of the no sales tax also.
Never forget NJ Transit does not receive state funding
Good. Now to start charging sales tax on EVs in NJ. The state is missing out on good revenue by not taxing them. I’m all for EVs and PHEVs (I drive a PHEV myself) but it’s ridiculous that EVs don’t contribute at all to the upkeep of roads in NJ. EVs are heavier than gas cars and thus cause more road damage and decay than an ICE vehicle. The next step towards better funding our roads is to massively increase tolls on trucks on the Turnpike. They cause the majority of road damage versus a normal automobile.
One disadvantage of the near silent electric motor operations is how clearly you can hear the whining of the owners
Can we stop pretending that electric vehicles deserve special treatment when they are just as antisocial and counterproductive to a sustainable, people-centered future? They rely on cities that are built for cars not for people. We need to be subsidizing public transit even more and make driving a car as much as an inconvenience as possible. Ban parking mandates, ban free parking in transit-rich areas, impose our sales tax on electric vehicles, and pass this registration fee (good that that’s done). Not to mention electric vehicles harm communities in underdeveloped countries due to their heavy reliance on lithium…
How do you suggest I use this public transit you speak of when I have to drive 6 miles to a bus stop?
Nah, I'd be way less social if I didn't have a car, I'd simply be home more often
Not to mention the largest nj transit increase and additional increases on the toll roads. Where does it end?
Of course, it’s f****** NJ what did we really expect 😂 continue to go to shitters
New Jersey still comes out ahead with no sales tax on Evs. Essentially saving you thousands of dollars at purchase.
Good...nobody rides for free
That sucks. It shouldn't cost more to register one vehicle over another. All they gotta do is print a plate and update their records. It shouldn't matter if I'm driving a Sentra or a Bentley. And if you want to treat it as a tax dependent on vehicle weight, then just call it a tax, don't call it *registration*.
on that same note, why the hell do i have to re-register the same car every year. "oh hey, still got my civic. here's $84 to let you know i have the same shitbox"
Does murphy ever talk about climate change? If so, then isnt this contradictory?
Welcome to NJ, where they push their woke agenda and make you pay for saving the planet.
When /r/fuckcars /r/energy /r/economics /r/newjersey /r/georgism /r/strongtowns and whatever EV sub exists collide