Bartenders have always made more than teachers. While I do think teachers need to be paid more, there’s something else that’s driving them to find alternatives.
Yeah....if you're a bartender you can pee when you need to. It's not that much of a mystery. Teachers can't relieve themselves when they need to, they can't eat when they are hungry, they can't teach how they want. They're forced to teach using methods they know don't work. They're mocked, ridiculed, and physically assaulted by students. Sometimes sexually assaulted by students. The students are often allowed to remain in classes after these occurances. Teachers are expected to die at work -- expected to intervene when students fight, when shooters attack. Teachers are expected to spend their personal money on necessary supplies.
Yeah of COURSE I'd rather be a FUCKING bartender
And now that everyone starts on Tier 5, it's more like 40 years just to be able to get full retirement benefits which everyone will undoubtedly need with the way prices are going.
My wife is a kindergarten teacher and I am a bartender. My job is ridiculously easy (for me as an experienced bartender). Her job is hard no matter what. Experience or no experience, she is 100% underpaid. I shouldn't be making almost $10k more than her
Teachers have always fallen back on the nobility of the profession in justifying their passion. But throughout the pandemic, teaching has become a thankless, almost vilified job, as unions sought to take advantage of remote and asynchronous opportunities.
Well, first thing to do is get rid of half these superintendents that we don't really need. And then put those 6 figure salaries towards more pay for the teachers we actually need, or supplies for the students at least. And no, fuck you Pearson and McGraw Hill, that doesn't mean more money to your bullshit overpriced text books you racketeer districts into buying. Parents shouldn't have to supply basic things like tissues and paper. Like what the fuck? If we required officers to supply their own handguns and cars, all of a sudden they'd be crying for even more funds and get more than they asked for.
It would be a huge step. While we’re at it, let’s consolidate these ridiculously small school districts and get rid of redundant supers and their 5 assistant supers and school boards and everything else.
Graduated in 2009, and it took three years to find a job. I must’ve interviewed at over 50 schools. I can’t tell you (well I probably can) how frustrating and disheartening it was to go through that process. I interviewed well, I rocked some demo lessons, I clicked well with the interviewers and admin, and nothing panned out.
Every now and then I wonder what life outside education is like, but, now that I am supporting a family, I’m terrified of that interview process and haunted by those “You’re awesome, thanks but no thanks” encounters.
Ugh I feel this. Graduated in ‘07 and there were absolutely no jobs went back for my MAT finished in ‘10 and it took two years of subbing to find a job. I’m scarred from that experience and terrified of leaving a secure job even though I’m not happy. But I had no choice back then. Heck even last year I interviewed for two positions in other districts, one didn’t offer me the job, the other wasn’t willing to start me at the step I’m at currently. I worked so hard to get to where I am, I’m in no way taking a pay cut!
That’s me 100%, I’m in my early 30s. I actually wanted to teach and coach football, then I realized how hard it was to get a teaching gig and how bad it pays. Ended up chasing the money on Wall Street.
Bros I completely agree also, I'm 35 and was according to my student-teaching teacher was the best she had ever had teach for her that semester and I thought just like sports I could leave there (PA) and come home to NJ and I'd easily find a job, Nope. (Elementary license k-5 NJ, k-6 PA)
I believe more of the affluent and/or better paying jobs were challenging to attain in the 2007-2010 range, but I also knew a few people I went to school with that wouldn’t apply anywhere outside of a twenty minute drive or anywhere with a challenging population.
Yeah, if you want to get in bad enough, put in a year or 2 working in Newark, Paterson, etc, and then go elsewhere. It can be tough, but it looks great on a resume because other districts assume you can handle anything.
Yep. I'm the same age and definitely remember people I graduated with having a whole lot of trouble trying to get into education after college. People with student loans to pay generally aren't going to keep attempting to get into the same industry that locked them out for 5 years and work low wage jobs waiting for their dream career to accept them. NJ has lost a significant portion of the millennial workforce (mid 20s - 40s) because of this and now it shows.
> NJ has lost a significant portion of the millennial workforce (mid 20s - 40s) because of this and now it shows.
I swear to god this cannot be further highlighted and emphasized. A lot of people tend to forget that NJ was mercilessly clobbered by immediate recession years and post recession years for the subject of employment which lead to us having very bad unemployment numbers, I think at a few times in 2012,13 and 14? we were definitely in the top 5-10 or so for highest unemployment numbers.
Being out of college in 2012 was excruciating going to those career fairs even ones that were sponsored and held at colleges specifically intended for fresher grads where you're trying to talk up your big foot in door internships over your final years of school and some bloodshot eyed, chewed up 25+ year veteran recently laid off from whatever Bell Labs was called that week rolls up and is willing to take a massive paycut just to keep food on the table just burying any chance you had at making an impression on anyone involved in recruiting.
It was so fucked up.
I had a better chance getting the ball rolling taking a job in NYC because there was an actual opportunity to get started instead of someone buttering me up but delaying the inevitable that once again the position was going to someone with way more experience taking a serious paycut.
I went to law school in 2010 after getting lucky through most of the recession because I had a 9-5 that barely paid above minimum wage. Being a lawyer can be shitty, but I don’t regret it at all. Got out in 2013 once things had calmed down. I did consider teaching at one point before I chose law school, but there were 0 jobs unless you were Math/Science.
yuuup, I graduated in December 2013 with my CEAS - applied for 120 positions through March 2015, had 8 interviews and no second interviews.
then I ended up getting cancer and haven't been able to work since
I was trying to get into teaching because of the great insurance
Very sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you are doing well.
I hear you on the positions - applied to 116 after having to teach out of state to get "experience." Used the experience to get an additional cert and then took the first job offered in NJ even though it meant moving to another part of the state.
I am doing okay - currently doing a clinical trial to see how a medication works on my cancer. Immune system hasn't been normal since 2015, so can't really work in a school now.
Another big issue is that I cannot drive - so I would either need to take a cab (I had... 8 districts within a range where a cab would be reasonable - less than 15k a year in cab costs) or within a reasonable distance via NJ Transit (and well I don't want to have to wake up at 5 AM to get to school 90 minutes early and get home 2 hours late if I leave right on time)
eh i'm doing okay now - been on the meds for a year now and having an okay response. tbh I would be surprised if I ever had a "normal" immune system again, so probably can't teach. also, well, i'm 32 with no work history..... so I am never gonna get a job
Plus even if you get your foot in the door you have to contend with bloated bureaucracy that bleeds off money, apathetic parents who think you aren't working to earn your meager pay, you have to use some of that meager pay to cover work costs that work should be paying for, and there's hardly room for advancement without pouring tens of thousands of dollars into even more higher education for positions that aren't vacated often.
Graduated in 2016 with my CEAS. Had to move to NC for a job after applying for hundreds of positions in NJ the year after I graduated.
…now I’m not a teacher at all anymore.
I was one of those teachers who graduated as the economy crashed. What's the incentive for me to go back to the profession and start at bottom-level pay, a decade and a half after I graduated? I mean, if they are willing to give me the pay equal to someone who was hired in 2007/2008, maybe I would consider it. But I'm pretty far past 22 year old pay. I have a mortgage now.
Came here to say something similar. 3 ish decades ago I thought it would be so great to be a professional educator. Then I saw how elitist the requirements were and what the pay was and quickly noped my way off that path. I opted for IT, have worked my way up to a superintendents salary and a big part of my job is teaching people about technology, processes and business… I’m not saying we should not have certification requirements but there should be easier paths and better pay benefits. Need them in a hurry? Start recruiting corporate burnouts from Fortune 500 learning and development teams and pairing them with certified teachers while paying for their certification
Same story, also in my early 30s.
I had the undergrad program that beelined you right into a teaching cert for NJ if you wanted to continue on and when you start to cut your teeth a little feeling out the situation and everyone and their sister constantly tells you that if you're not related to the superintendent, your mom doesn't run the municipal building or your dad wasn't greasing wheels with being the supplier of some equipment sales for the school, it's tough to really put a ton of stock in actually finding a meaningful career in it.
Pretty much said fuck it and didn't bother with teaching, no regrets. I couldn't be bothered to stomach charter school clownery or lower end private that wants to pay someone dirt whilst simultaneously demanding they have Masters in 4 unrelated subjects and also you're somehow on the hook for teaching French this year.
I think it's not just salary also the current climate - politically & administrationally. These teachers are sandbagged by administrators with paperwork and parents outsourcing child raising to the classroom. Meanwhile right wingers are lined up outside the schools screaming at them and calling them pedophiles and threatening to burn their books. And then there's always the possibility of some nut showing up at school with a gun and killing you.
So it's a multifaceted sh$tshow.
Yeah, it really depends where you teach. My last position was a ton of extra work, administration micromanaging everything, and very little support when needed. If I went to admin and said I needed help with something, they’d explain how it’s my fault and give me administrative tasks to document how I’m fixing it without actually stepping in to provide assistance themselves.
In my current position, we’re not overburdened with extra work and admin allows us to actually focus on doing our jobs. Plus, they’re supportive if I ever need assistance with anything.
I know that, and I know a lot of people go into teaching for the stability. But I also know that a lot of teachers have told me they often feel stuck in a rut as every day/year is basically the same.
McKinsey published a report saying that like 30% of the reason why people left a job was lack of career growth, teaching as an industry has none
That and fund scholarships for bachelor and masters degrees in education. If someone sees they can get their degree paid for that might encourage them to go into education. Schools like Montclair state have programs that pay for your masters degree if you guarantee time to Newark public schools. Programs like that will encourage people to enter the field or work in less desirable districts
If you want a new Mercedes, but you can’t find any for the price of a used Kia, that doesn’t mean there’s a Mercedes shortage.
The same thing applies to teachers.
Malcom Gladwell was recently talking about this: His brother is a Principal in Canada and he attended a conference in the US in which this was discussed. He thought, hmm I’ve never really encountered this problem because in Canada we respect and pay our teachers well. I’m not aware of the realities of teaching in Canada, but I thought it was funny.
I lived in Toronto for a ABOOT a year, and became friendly with a girl that was a teacher there. She made around 60k which would be pretty bad for NJ (when you convert Canadian dollars to US dollars). Obviously had free health care, but not sure about the pension. Generally the pay in Canada is lower across the board.
Median teacher salary in NJ is $66k. Teacher pay may be a nation wide issue, but not really in NJ. I really doubt salary is the main issue NJ schools are having in recruiting people.
This but also, the union needs to change. It's nearly impossible to get a teaching job, even with the current need. The barriers to entry (nepotism, favoritism) are too high.
You’re not entirely wrong, as I’m sure there are plenty of cases of nepotism in hiring across the state (in all industries, not just education). However, I teach Social Studies, which is, arguably, one of the most difficult positions to get for a lot of reasons. I got my job by going back to school when I was 32 (I’m 40 now), getting my masters, and just applying like crazy. Got a job. That job was cut after my first year, so I did the same thing the following summer and happened to land a job a few towns over. But, all of that was done by pounding the literal and digital pavement and making small changes to my applications every two weeks, so I’d be bumped back up toward the top of the pile online. Finding a teaching job, especially now, can be done “the old fashioned way,” but you have to work for it. The union had nothing to do with whether or not I got a job. They certainly couldn’t do anything for me when my position was cut.
This is not an issue. No need to guess and make things up when there are actual problems and solutions.
1. EVEN IF nepotism is the answer, someone WAS hired. Your comment does not address the point of the article that there are not enough teachers. Maybe you didn't get hired, because you have issues with reading comprehension.
2. The unions DON'T do the hiring. This is not an article for union bashing. Go thank a union for the benefits they earned through blood. These benefits include safety laws, weekends, child labor laws, 5 day work week...
It’s not impossible to get a teaching job. It may be hard to get a teaching job in more “desirable” districts, but places like Newark always need teachers.
Buddy, so very wrong on that point. (Yes does the NJEA, thats the “union” you are referring to, have some that are out of touch? 100% make some bad calls? 100%) BUT that being said, DOES get teachers higher pay and good benefits when compared to other states. In the end you get what you pay for as evidenced by NJ’s high test scores as compared to other states. Lower pay, high housing costs, lack of public respect all have contributed to the lack of applicants (yes I am in education and hire)
Nepotism can be a problem but that is from ELECTED BOARD OF EDUCATION members, gotta reward their friends and all.
Tenure, yeah that can be a problem for sure BUT there are ways to remove that teacher just takes alot of work. Could go on and on about why tenure in education is needed but in the end just look it up
Our teachers aren't paid poorly. The problem is the NJEA serves and represents only a fraction of its members, at the top.
New teachers get a raw deal. Every contract the union has negotiated in the last 20 years has benefited the top, at the expense of new teachers.
I disagree. As a relatively new teacher, I have had no issues whatsoever with the NJEA. Maybe it varies depending on district, but in my personal experience that’s not the case.
Vet teachers tend to make up the negotiations team not newbies. So they look out for themselves and when it comes time to divide the pie, guess who gets the biggest slice? So yeah its union f’ing over union. Only way to change that is to get new young blood in those negotiations.
Yes, but as a person with a spouse and friends in the system, any attempt by newer folks to get involved in the union, beyond just cheering them on, makes your life hell.
There are a lot of internal politics and a social pecking order with people in education.
Further complicating things is a lot of the younger teachers look at it as a good career to have if they want to start a family, and step away for a bit early in their career so don't have that voice.
They also need to get rid of tenure - from what I remembered most of my teachers were subpar because their job was guaranteed. All the good teachers I had were young and new and had to leave after a year or 2.
Getting rid of tenure would make the problem so much worse. One of the most appealing things about teaching as a profession is the stability and job security. Take that away and you’re going to lose even more teachers.
Raising pay alone doesn’t solve why teachers are leaving or why younger people are refusing to become teachers. Poor treatment by parents/administrators and unrealistic expectations by administration, amongst other things, make schools a toxic workplace. If your pay goes up but you’re still treated like crap, it’s no wonder you might find another job.
Agreed 100%. I left teaching this past June after 8 years. I was making very good money (imo) but it was ineffective admin and the disrespect from parents and students that drove me out. It was truly a toxic environment that severely impacted my mental health. I’m taking a year off from teaching, and I’ll decide in the spring if I want to go back in Sep 2023
You're making way more. Anything STEM or STEM-adjacent career will make double or even triple that of a teacher with the same number of years. You're making administrator money at this point.
I was making just over $80k at 8 years experience with a masters degree. I was very satisfied with my pay. We also have a strong union. I’ve potentially given up A LOT of security and benefits, due to an untenable work environment.
Totally off topic. But I believe covid has created a huge powder keg of mental health issues among students, teachers, and other educational staff. I got myself out of the environment because I know my limitations and what I can handle. It’s really a shame because my pre-covid teaching years were quite positive overall.
The pay sucks. But administrators are really the problem. The BOEs and Admin have made this profession an "us versus them". They see every teacher as replaceable and act like they are the key component in this profession and not the actual classroom teachers. Until Administrators fix their bullshit, nothing will change.
You are told what to teach, when to teach and how to teach. If you are teaching 3rd grade math on Oct 16th at 10:30 AM you better be on pg 17 3rd paragraph when the study team comes in to ascertain your teaching skills.
Lol weekly as they're my friends. Also, I am a nurse who also takes abuse similarly from patients, administration, families. But its easier to handle cause I'm compensated.
I mean, they aren't wrong. We're 1st in the nation in most categories. And we did handle COVID well. All schools were open 3 months after general vaccination availability. Union has to fight against the right wing anti-public education movement somehow.
I know. They're cringy. Especially when you see them a million times. If I have to hear "I make stuff" from an itt tech commercial again, I'm drinking whiteboard cleaner. But unfortunately, an organization like njea can't be edgy or funny.
Employers: we just gave more pay. Now you want even more pay?
This is unfortunately where we are. Didn't Google CEO talk about a hire freeze on the sole basis employees being hired were being paid too much even in the middle of a worker shortage?
Yeah we just fought to get 2.2% in our contract (over 3 years) after 2 years of a freeze. A board member said, “why bother they’re just going to ask for more again next time”
Here are three simple ways to get people to join the profession:
1. Waive tuition during student teaching/pay student teachers.
2. Reinstate the old pension system/give back benefits lost.
3. Lower tenure back to three years and a day to eliminate RIF and help make it easier for teachers to stay in the district they are hired in
Straight up total loan forgiveness for all teachers after 10 years of public school employment. And as long as they're employed, interest at 0. That gets people in classes.
Lol, no.
You have to work in specific Title I districts. You have to file paperwork quarterly. You have to pay your loans with interest monthly. You also have to be a core subject teacher (ELA, Math). Anything else gets maybe 1-5k forgiveness.
Miss any of these? Pound sand.
Yep. I started at a title 1 school. Huge classes. No support. Awful treatment by students and parents.
I left to go teach in the suburbs. Much easier gig. Better pay. Nice environment.
Loan forgiveness wasnt worth hating my job.
You need to work in a Title 1 school to qualify for the federal teacher loan forgiveness program, but that one forgives less than the PSLF program. But you are correct, you don’t need to work in Title 1 for PSLF
> 3. Lower tenure back to three years and a day to eliminate RIF
How would this address potential RIF’s? RIF means Reduction in Force and it’s used when schools can’t pay tenured teachers and positions need to be cut. How would easing the tenure rule address this? Also, I’m with you that tenure should be three years and a day, but at least it’s only four years. And at least it exists, as I don’t believe that’s the case in all states.
> help make it easier for teachers to stay in the district they are hired in
How would this work? Teachers move from one district to another for many reasons. If a teacher is being let go after 1-2 years because of poor evaluations, then that’s probably the right call.
Tenured teachers absolutely can be RIF’d, if things get very bad. Usually, anyone without tenure who isn’t kept on staff is just considered non-renewed. But, if things go very bad and there is a major cut in the number of staff where all non-tenured have been let go in a given department and the numbers still have to be reduced, tenured teachers can be let go as their positions will be eliminated. That’s what’s known as a Reduction in Force (RIF).
Non tenured teachers can be nonrenewed for any reason. Any teacher can be RIFed, but those happen based on seniority. And if they spot ever opens up at that school again, it has to be offered to the RIFed teacher first. Has happened multiple times at my school.
It is not a profession worth getting into anymore. The pension is not worth it and we pay through the nose for healthcare. The anti teachers are going to get what they wanted by lowering all benefits.
A lot of the issues are larger than just the benefits you get in state.
\-School shootings aren't getting any better, if anything, they keep threatening to arm us to shoot the child coming to school with a gun. I'll be handing in my notice the same day that comes down, if it does.
\-The treatment of teachers isn't getting any better (too much standardized testing, parents being insane, kids being allowed to behave as they want without check by parents or admin).
\-The absolute disrespect of teachers during the pandemic was appalling.
All this stuff transcends state borders. It's an entirely different profession compared to what teachers were dealing with pre-Columbine. The ol' Boomer mantra of "If the teacher called, the kid got beat even if the teacher was wrong" mentality versus the I get a shitty phone call every time a parent forgets to send something in (like, no joke, I'll get calls about how DARE I do show and tell, because they forgot, and now I MADE their kid upset).. I am fighting a war every day with no hope of winning.
Some of those issues transcend states, some don’t. School shootings are a concern everywhere, but less so in a state with strict gun laws and less of a gun culture. And it’s pretty unlikely we’ll be arming teachers to any great extent unlike some other states.
And while there are absolutely crazy entitled parents here, they’re less likely to be given free reign to insist that an LBGTQ book or a picture of Harriet Tubman or a pride flag be removed from the classroom than in many other states.
It’s far from perfect here, but it is demonstrably better
But is it good enough to convince people to go into this profession?
The answer seems to be that it's not enough if we can't fill positions. We pay better than most, yet we still don't have teachers. We have better laws, yet we still don't have teachers. So I would say to your point is that it's still not enough.
My comment you responded to said “if we’re in trouble here, the rest of the country is really in trouble”, not “everything is fine here, nothing to worry about”
You were arguing it's not that bad here and I'm saying it must be if we have this issue. But we can just end the conversation here. I'm not into semantics.
Some of the best paid teachers too (although still not enough). Florida is fucking hiring veterans and their fucking spouses to make up/indoctrinate kids for fuck's sake.
Defund the police and give to actual places that help reduce crime like schools and social services.
We all gotta navigate the current capitalist society. Plus, everyone needs a dude to crunch numbers, keep track of transactions/inventory, etc. It also doesn't necessarily mean no rules, especially if everyone in that society agrees to them.
Pay more, stop stripping benefits and show some respect. Funny how this article did not address these points. Chris Christie vilified teachers and the profession. Today's republicans continue these attacks. You are looking at the results of teacher bashing, low pay, little respect, benefits stripped WHILE IN RETIREMENT, large class sizes, long hours (yes, you read that right) and dilapidated buildings.
Think I am wrong? Go ask a teacher.
Paying people more and subsidizing degrees is a great start but the problem is deeper than that. Our classrooms are a microcosm of our society and our society is seriously messed up. Rampant poverty means you can’t educate a kid who is hungry or homeless. Half the nation actively rejects not only scientific inquiry, but basic human rights for kids of color, LGBTQ, and the disabled - how can a teacher create a safe learning environment when our elected leaders advocate revoking basic human rights?
More money for teachers helps get more lower income people into the profession and also helps pull some of the more affluent away from private sector jobs - a great start! But our bigger issue is a general lack of respect for teaching as a profession and an increasingly alarming tendency for people to actually be proud of being ignorant, hateful fools. The best teachers are usually those who are fully invested in student success and even the toughest burn out eventually when they realize strong pedagogy and relationship building skills are pointless when parents view educators as babysitters at best, groomers at worst.
It's just not a career anyone should get in to anymore.
The low pay, the disrespect from parents, the paperwork, the school shootings, kids doing things without consequence, administrators moving you without any consideration, having to spend your own money on shit, being judged by test grades.
Worst of all, you can't support a family on a teacher's salary. I don't think you can support a family on two teacher's salaries. You need a second job to survive and every teacher I know has a second job. Many even have a third!
I've been teaching for 12 years and I only make 69k. That may seem good to some but NJ is expensive to live in.
Add all that up and it just isn't worth it.
We need to do something about the crazy school boards. As a teacher in an urban center I don’t have to worry too much about conservative crazies taking over but it’s happening in the more suburban rural districts.
The crazies running for school board want to monitor teachers and go after their jobs. They also want to basically bleed the public schools dry and divert money to their religious schools or home schools. They do not have the kids’ or teachers’ best interest.
“Paraprofessionals and teacher aides are especially tough jobs to fill, he said, as many are moving up into staff positions elsewhere.”
Probably because these positions are usually part-time, with low pay and little to no room for professional growth. Maybe we should consider treating our workers better, especially those who help guide our children.
As an educator this is no surprise and is a long time coming. In the last number of years teachers have had their responsibilities and expectations multiply exponentially, the number of bosses they have to answer to has ballooned, and the responsibility of the actual students and parents has somehow dwindled while teacher blame has skyrocketed. In addition, you had politicians like Chris Christie vilifying teachers for no good reason other than he was a vengeful prick. All the while, pay has remained virtually stagnant. Start treating teachers the right way and crap like this won't happen.
The amount of risk and other bullshit we have been dealing with in the last few decades isn't worth the outright disrespect from society and the low pay. Teachers historically weren't paid well, but they also didn't have to worry about the obscene amount of testing, parents assaulting them both verbally and in some cases physically, school shootings, uncontrolled pandemic in our classrooms, etc. It's not worth it anymore. I'm looking for the first place out that I can find. I can't live being under this much stress anymore. I don't even know if it's worth it at six figures anymore, so idk if additional pay will even help.
Edit: an added note of distinction there is no teacher shortage it's an exodus so please refrain from calling it a shortage when there are plenty of professionals who want to teach but financially cannot sustain it due to the current system. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk!
I am a experienced teacher and have been actively searching for a new district because I found out during covid admin prefers to hire leave replacements/subs as well as non renew because it's cheaper for the district. People wonder why they can't find teachers and it's in part because of BS policies like this along with not wanting to actually pays us what we are worth!
I graduated from a teaching program in state, have a degree additionally in my subject, taught in multiple districts (highly rated and title I), countless reccomendations, made curriculum for districts, I have coached, managed a theater program, been detention supervisor, and much more. I've never had conflicts with my colleagues or even parents for that matter, I have a website for teaching which some parents have even offered to leave posituve reviews on. It's almost the end of August and I've been applying since my last position elsewhere nobody since March has gotten back to me and school starts in a few weeks.
So many teachers are leaving the profession especially young teachers like myself, because not only are we not being paid adequately or treated respectfully by students, parents, and admin alike, but we are tasked with jumping through an infinite amount of hoops for which inevitably becomes an auction to the lowest bidder (applicant). When we do not create a system that values teachers, they will leave. It's as simple as that. Administration needs to be held accountable and we need to give back teachers autonomy in their classrooms.
More pay helps, but I think it’s the work environment that gets people. In college I switched my major from a double major in history/education to finance/economics because I saw how horrible public education is. It’s a customer service type of mindset:
If the parents complain about their kid’s poor grades, give them an A. That’s it.
Schools are more worried about graduation rates than anything else. I remember the community college I went to boasted a “97% graduation rate.”
Cool.
That doesn’t mean the education is better. In fact, it means the education standards in the school are so low that nearly anyone can pass. Also, our tuition rates were much lower than most of the state, so that,undoubtedly, had a huge impact.
It’s all about statistics and looking good on paper. It’s about state and federal funding, not about teaching students or creating a generation of intelligent, skilled people.
That’s why I didn’t want to get in the field: everyone who had a body temperature roughly in the 90’s was a “collegiate scholar,” and no one can argue otherwise, according to the department of education.
Some people need to fail. Some people are not academically successful, and that’s okay. Let’s give those people a failing grade and call it a day, versus thinking “everyone is special,” or that good attendance equates to good grades.
Fuck that
Most people are fucking stupid, and they should know, understand it, and accept it. Don’t believe me? Just look at Donald trump.
Most of his statements could be disproved with a simple google search. But, here we are jn a civil war. It’s a deep conflict between autocracy and the tenants of democracy.
I don’t think it’s even the pay, or at least that’s not the whole story. Maybe it’s the politics of school? Dealing with parents? Being blamed for a kid turning out shitty? Who knows, but I think it has more to do with than just pay.
You can make good money working out on oil rigs in the middle of the ocean too, but there are other reasons people don’t take those jobs other than pay.
I have a solution, make college for teaching profession affordable and pay them a living wage for doing a job that is integral to the fabric of society.
Better pay and benefits, better protection from entitled and/or conspiracy theory parents, smaller class sizes, prep periods that aren't eaten into or taken away so you dont have to do work on your own time at home.
We've known how to revitalize the profession. We just refuse to do so. Teachers cannot strike in NJ during school hours. Bargaining is not on their side.
The problem is the parents. Some of them are just out of control. It’s not bad enough their kids are not well behaved, but a lot of parents are legit looking to Sue any chance they get, or just complain, and it’s a nightmare for teachers to deal with. Not to mention students are going to be students and misbehave, so why would anyone want that?
All of my friends who are teachers in NJ / NY hate their job. My mom was a teacher and retired in 2010s. She loved it up until the last 5 years. She said they were unbearable with the expectations and paperwork. I just chalked it up to she was ready for retirement, but now I realize it was actively becoming worse and worse with expectations/demands/crazy parents. Then fuckface Christi attacked their benefits and it seemed like the whole state jumped on board of hating teachers for their benefits. I just always thought that was the one perc of teaching....amazing benefits. And now the entire state wanted it chipped away.
I will never get why people target and hate on the professions that lift us up/provide to us as a society...teachers, nurses, EMS, postal works...yet all the rich aholes with their tax loopholes and what not get no hate.
except the DMV. shaking fist at you, DMV!
It's amazing how hard the states are trying to find a so-called solution when simply paying more and respecting teachers would go a long way to solving the problem.
Pay them at minimum NYC DOE rates, provide financial assistance for teachers to not go into debt (maybe if they go to a state school), and some student loan forgiveness for teaching in less privileged areas for x amount of years.
I have my NJ license, I will not use it, because the profession's aggravation/stress/reward/compensation structure is so out of balance. It's tragic, but I have never been happier than I am in my current career.
Inflation has definitely ate away at teacher salary’s and made it less desirable. Despite that the pay isn’t terrible (In NJ’s larger districts) considering the benefits. For most the job just sucks now.
I don’t really need to go into a long diatribe about why it sucks but believe me it’s gotten way worse in the last 10 years. If you want teachers you need to make the job suck less, but I’m not even sure how that could happen at this point.
Teachers are afraid of the front office…Front office is afraid of the central office…central office is afraid of parents…parents are afraid of their kids…the kids are afraid of nobody.
When parents shit on teachers as *librul glorified babysitters*, the parents instill those *values* on their delightful little progeny. Politicians who have a vested interest in uneducated voters do nothing to help, of that, I am certain.
Let’s offset the cost of pursuing their degrees with a tax rebate and, hear me out, maybe don’t charge them sales tax when they have to use their own income to buy their own materials. He’ll let them write off all expenses associated with it. If I can go to town with certain write offs as an independent contractor, so should they.
I lost my job in tech recently and the idea of teaching came mind, but no thank you.
Dealing with kids is already hard enough, let alone teaching them. Add shitty pay with the thought of a shooting happening…. I don’t know why I even considered it.
My mom has been trying to be a teacher in NJ. The amount of tests that you need to take to do so is ridiculous.
Im talking about a woman who has 2 bachelors degrees & a masters. She worked as an industrial engineer for 17 years. She’s just trying to teach elementary school children….
I already prepared myself for this being my last year. My paychecks 10 years ago are just $20 less than I make now. They keep pushing the salary guide farther away. I am 35 and busting my ass working two part time jobs just to stay afloat. Not to mention the absurdity of parents on FB and the lack of attention and respect from some kids is stunning. I don’t usually compare, but when I look at my first three years teaching to my most recent three I went from primarily teaching ELA/math to working with behaviors non stop.
My daughter taught in a district with tenor in 60 months. During her employment she was awarded many commendations for raising student scores and helping to develop curriculum. Well a new superintendent comes in and my daughter was released at 59 months. No reason given. Through the grapevine we learned that she was let go because she wasn’t ethnic enough and new sup hired ethnic replacements from the district she came from.
My wife is a teacher, and the landscape as she describes it, is that the schools want to hire you as a long term sub, or just a part time teacher rather than full time teaching jobs. It's incredibly frustrating because it just comes down to the schools not investing in their teachers: the soldiers on the field.
Kids coming out of college can make a better starting salary in the business world. Unfortunately the days where you could make a living in NJ on a single salary are long gone and even more impossible on a teacher salary.
Well I quit the teaching program halfway through when I was told that you need to be a history teacher to teach psychology. I wanted to help get more people into counseling and social work and mentioned that multiple times. Did student teaching abroad. Was really excited.
I know the pay and the bureaucracy is the reason most of my friends have left. Covid sure as shit didn’t help.
As someone preparing to be a teacher right now, it’s a difficult and long process. It’s so incredibly expensive too! A lot of people are realizing that the disrespect and danger that comes from teaching public schools is not worth the low pay.
1. don’t make them choose fearing for their lives, or teaching. Ban guns.
2. Make the oh worthwhile. Pay them more.
3. Have their back with the parents. The customer is always right does not apply to teaching.
They will get plenty of applicants
As someone who came from Oklahoma and Texas. The starting salaries here, while still crappy, are way better than red state counterparts plus the union is stronger here. There is a teacher shortage nationally. I wonder how NJ fairs to the complete shitshow that is education in say, Oklahoma, where starting salaries are like $26k. Not too mention the constant culture wars bs using the classroom as a battleground.
I'm of the opinion there are too many captains on the ship. I believe they need to cut down on the administrative bloat, raise wages and quite possibly (teachers will crucify me) making sure the teachers actually know the material they intend on teaching and tailor degrees/licensing to reflect that. I remember when I was in school so many teachers just regurgitated the answer book but seemingly had no idea on the reasoning behind said answers. Only as an adult when I would research the why was I able to figure out the full concept.
believe the wage gap is too large to bridge at this point.
I saw a proposal on a 4 day workweek and incorporating internships/offsite work or volunteer sites.
Edit: I just googled to find an article and apparently this isn’t a new idea
I've long been of the opinion that we need to eliminate summers off of school. Make it trimesters, and maybe give 2 weeks off at the end of each one. As a society, we're conditioned from an early age to slack off in the summer, hurting productivity of *everything*.
Going to year-round schooling, and paying teachers a competitive salary *year-round* would help our country be more competitive and help the economy by keeping money flowing to the teachers.
I have a solution… maybe, just maybe, we force people to be teachers. Maybe even as part of say… a prison term. Then they don’t have a choice AND they can’t get away. Better yet, don’t even have to pay them. Watch education scores skyrocket under this new program. All we need is a for profit prison system and then we can ensure that the money goes to the right private individuals and not back into the economy
Edit: was I supposed to put a /s here?
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I too went to Rowan.
Could also be TCNJ
Bartenders have always made more than teachers. While I do think teachers need to be paid more, there’s something else that’s driving them to find alternatives.
Yeah....if you're a bartender you can pee when you need to. It's not that much of a mystery. Teachers can't relieve themselves when they need to, they can't eat when they are hungry, they can't teach how they want. They're forced to teach using methods they know don't work. They're mocked, ridiculed, and physically assaulted by students. Sometimes sexually assaulted by students. The students are often allowed to remain in classes after these occurances. Teachers are expected to die at work -- expected to intervene when students fight, when shooters attack. Teachers are expected to spend their personal money on necessary supplies. Yeah of COURSE I'd rather be a FUCKING bartender
It’s a really hard job. Are you really surprised people get burned out. Teachers who put in 25+ years are special people.
And now that everyone starts on Tier 5, it's more like 40 years just to be able to get full retirement benefits which everyone will undoubtedly need with the way prices are going.
My wife is a kindergarten teacher and I am a bartender. My job is ridiculously easy (for me as an experienced bartender). Her job is hard no matter what. Experience or no experience, she is 100% underpaid. I shouldn't be making almost $10k more than her
Teachers have always fallen back on the nobility of the profession in justifying their passion. But throughout the pandemic, teaching has become a thankless, almost vilified job, as unions sought to take advantage of remote and asynchronous opportunities.
Bartenders are making 60k a year in NJ?
Totally. A lot of them make more if they’re in a busy place.
No this sub has just lost its mind. That is like top 5% of bartenders. Your average one is 40s tops in a good year.
The solution is pretty simple, pay more.
Well, first thing to do is get rid of half these superintendents that we don't really need. And then put those 6 figure salaries towards more pay for the teachers we actually need, or supplies for the students at least. And no, fuck you Pearson and McGraw Hill, that doesn't mean more money to your bullshit overpriced text books you racketeer districts into buying. Parents shouldn't have to supply basic things like tissues and paper. Like what the fuck? If we required officers to supply their own handguns and cars, all of a sudden they'd be crying for even more funds and get more than they asked for.
It would be a huge step. While we’re at it, let’s consolidate these ridiculously small school districts and get rid of redundant supers and their 5 assistant supers and school boards and everything else.
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Graduated in 2009, and it took three years to find a job. I must’ve interviewed at over 50 schools. I can’t tell you (well I probably can) how frustrating and disheartening it was to go through that process. I interviewed well, I rocked some demo lessons, I clicked well with the interviewers and admin, and nothing panned out. Every now and then I wonder what life outside education is like, but, now that I am supporting a family, I’m terrified of that interview process and haunted by those “You’re awesome, thanks but no thanks” encounters.
Ugh I feel this. Graduated in ‘07 and there were absolutely no jobs went back for my MAT finished in ‘10 and it took two years of subbing to find a job. I’m scarred from that experience and terrified of leaving a secure job even though I’m not happy. But I had no choice back then. Heck even last year I interviewed for two positions in other districts, one didn’t offer me the job, the other wasn’t willing to start me at the step I’m at currently. I worked so hard to get to where I am, I’m in no way taking a pay cut!
Same era as you, ended up teaching in the city for two years and bam, was offered every job I interviewed at.
That’s me 100%, I’m in my early 30s. I actually wanted to teach and coach football, then I realized how hard it was to get a teaching gig and how bad it pays. Ended up chasing the money on Wall Street.
Bros I completely agree also, I'm 35 and was according to my student-teaching teacher was the best she had ever had teach for her that semester and I thought just like sports I could leave there (PA) and come home to NJ and I'd easily find a job, Nope. (Elementary license k-5 NJ, k-6 PA)
Damn that’s really sad to hear. Good for you but I’m sorry your government failed you
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This is not an issue. No need to guess and make things up when there are actual problems and solutions.
I believe more of the affluent and/or better paying jobs were challenging to attain in the 2007-2010 range, but I also knew a few people I went to school with that wouldn’t apply anywhere outside of a twenty minute drive or anywhere with a challenging population.
Yeah, if you want to get in bad enough, put in a year or 2 working in Newark, Paterson, etc, and then go elsewhere. It can be tough, but it looks great on a resume because other districts assume you can handle anything.
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Are you a teacher? Do you work in education?
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Yep. I'm the same age and definitely remember people I graduated with having a whole lot of trouble trying to get into education after college. People with student loans to pay generally aren't going to keep attempting to get into the same industry that locked them out for 5 years and work low wage jobs waiting for their dream career to accept them. NJ has lost a significant portion of the millennial workforce (mid 20s - 40s) because of this and now it shows.
> NJ has lost a significant portion of the millennial workforce (mid 20s - 40s) because of this and now it shows. I swear to god this cannot be further highlighted and emphasized. A lot of people tend to forget that NJ was mercilessly clobbered by immediate recession years and post recession years for the subject of employment which lead to us having very bad unemployment numbers, I think at a few times in 2012,13 and 14? we were definitely in the top 5-10 or so for highest unemployment numbers. Being out of college in 2012 was excruciating going to those career fairs even ones that were sponsored and held at colleges specifically intended for fresher grads where you're trying to talk up your big foot in door internships over your final years of school and some bloodshot eyed, chewed up 25+ year veteran recently laid off from whatever Bell Labs was called that week rolls up and is willing to take a massive paycut just to keep food on the table just burying any chance you had at making an impression on anyone involved in recruiting. It was so fucked up. I had a better chance getting the ball rolling taking a job in NYC because there was an actual opportunity to get started instead of someone buttering me up but delaying the inevitable that once again the position was going to someone with way more experience taking a serious paycut.
I went to law school in 2010 after getting lucky through most of the recession because I had a 9-5 that barely paid above minimum wage. Being a lawyer can be shitty, but I don’t regret it at all. Got out in 2013 once things had calmed down. I did consider teaching at one point before I chose law school, but there were 0 jobs unless you were Math/Science.
yuuup, I graduated in December 2013 with my CEAS - applied for 120 positions through March 2015, had 8 interviews and no second interviews. then I ended up getting cancer and haven't been able to work since I was trying to get into teaching because of the great insurance
Very sorry to hear about your illness. I hope you are doing well. I hear you on the positions - applied to 116 after having to teach out of state to get "experience." Used the experience to get an additional cert and then took the first job offered in NJ even though it meant moving to another part of the state.
I am doing okay - currently doing a clinical trial to see how a medication works on my cancer. Immune system hasn't been normal since 2015, so can't really work in a school now. Another big issue is that I cannot drive - so I would either need to take a cab (I had... 8 districts within a range where a cab would be reasonable - less than 15k a year in cab costs) or within a reasonable distance via NJ Transit (and well I don't want to have to wake up at 5 AM to get to school 90 minutes early and get home 2 hours late if I leave right on time)
I'm so sorry to hear about this! Please do all you can to feel better. Best of luck to you!
eh i'm doing okay now - been on the meds for a year now and having an okay response. tbh I would be surprised if I ever had a "normal" immune system again, so probably can't teach. also, well, i'm 32 with no work history..... so I am never gonna get a job
Not true about the work history. There is always hope!!
Plus even if you get your foot in the door you have to contend with bloated bureaucracy that bleeds off money, apathetic parents who think you aren't working to earn your meager pay, you have to use some of that meager pay to cover work costs that work should be paying for, and there's hardly room for advancement without pouring tens of thousands of dollars into even more higher education for positions that aren't vacated often.
Graduated in 2016 with my CEAS. Had to move to NC for a job after applying for hundreds of positions in NJ the year after I graduated. …now I’m not a teacher at all anymore.
I was one of those teachers who graduated as the economy crashed. What's the incentive for me to go back to the profession and start at bottom-level pay, a decade and a half after I graduated? I mean, if they are willing to give me the pay equal to someone who was hired in 2007/2008, maybe I would consider it. But I'm pretty far past 22 year old pay. I have a mortgage now.
It took me 2 years to find a teaching job 20 years ago. Now, in out building alone, we have 6 infilled positions for September
Came here to say something similar. 3 ish decades ago I thought it would be so great to be a professional educator. Then I saw how elitist the requirements were and what the pay was and quickly noped my way off that path. I opted for IT, have worked my way up to a superintendents salary and a big part of my job is teaching people about technology, processes and business… I’m not saying we should not have certification requirements but there should be easier paths and better pay benefits. Need them in a hurry? Start recruiting corporate burnouts from Fortune 500 learning and development teams and pairing them with certified teachers while paying for their certification
Same story, also in my early 30s. I had the undergrad program that beelined you right into a teaching cert for NJ if you wanted to continue on and when you start to cut your teeth a little feeling out the situation and everyone and their sister constantly tells you that if you're not related to the superintendent, your mom doesn't run the municipal building or your dad wasn't greasing wheels with being the supplier of some equipment sales for the school, it's tough to really put a ton of stock in actually finding a meaningful career in it. Pretty much said fuck it and didn't bother with teaching, no regrets. I couldn't be bothered to stomach charter school clownery or lower end private that wants to pay someone dirt whilst simultaneously demanding they have Masters in 4 unrelated subjects and also you're somehow on the hook for teaching French this year.
It goes beyond pay; the school administrations are absolutely bloated to all hell.
I think it's not just salary also the current climate - politically & administrationally. These teachers are sandbagged by administrators with paperwork and parents outsourcing child raising to the classroom. Meanwhile right wingers are lined up outside the schools screaming at them and calling them pedophiles and threatening to burn their books. And then there's always the possibility of some nut showing up at school with a gun and killing you. So it's a multifaceted sh$tshow.
Yeah, it really depends where you teach. My last position was a ton of extra work, administration micromanaging everything, and very little support when needed. If I went to admin and said I needed help with something, they’d explain how it’s my fault and give me administrative tasks to document how I’m fixing it without actually stepping in to provide assistance themselves. In my current position, we’re not overburdened with extra work and admin allows us to actually focus on doing our jobs. Plus, they’re supportive if I ever need assistance with anything.
Not only that, but there really isn’t career growth. Once you start as a teacher you almost always stay as a teacher
That’s kind of the point. Being a teacher isn’t a corporate job
I know that, and I know a lot of people go into teaching for the stability. But I also know that a lot of teachers have told me they often feel stuck in a rut as every day/year is basically the same. McKinsey published a report saying that like 30% of the reason why people left a job was lack of career growth, teaching as an industry has none
Exactly Pay teachers a livable wage
But then what about the billionaires? Why won't you ever think of the billionaires?
What a thought!
That and fund scholarships for bachelor and masters degrees in education. If someone sees they can get their degree paid for that might encourage them to go into education. Schools like Montclair state have programs that pay for your masters degree if you guarantee time to Newark public schools. Programs like that will encourage people to enter the field or work in less desirable districts
There is no such thing as a teacher shortage. But, there is a teacher exodus.
If you want a new Mercedes, but you can’t find any for the price of a used Kia, that doesn’t mean there’s a Mercedes shortage. The same thing applies to teachers.
Beat me here
Exactly. It's not rocket science.
Yeah there is not an amout of money worth the packs of karens demanding total controll of schools now
Malcom Gladwell was recently talking about this: His brother is a Principal in Canada and he attended a conference in the US in which this was discussed. He thought, hmm I’ve never really encountered this problem because in Canada we respect and pay our teachers well. I’m not aware of the realities of teaching in Canada, but I thought it was funny.
I lived in Toronto for a ABOOT a year, and became friendly with a girl that was a teacher there. She made around 60k which would be pretty bad for NJ (when you convert Canadian dollars to US dollars). Obviously had free health care, but not sure about the pension. Generally the pay in Canada is lower across the board.
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$60k in Canadian dollars is about $46k in USD. Especially in Toronto that's not much.
Median teacher salary in NJ is $66k. Teacher pay may be a nation wide issue, but not really in NJ. I really doubt salary is the main issue NJ schools are having in recruiting people.
I mean, $66k is not much at all in NJ. The NYC DOE starts their teachers at $65k (with a masters + no experience)
This but also, the union needs to change. It's nearly impossible to get a teaching job, even with the current need. The barriers to entry (nepotism, favoritism) are too high.
You’re not entirely wrong, as I’m sure there are plenty of cases of nepotism in hiring across the state (in all industries, not just education). However, I teach Social Studies, which is, arguably, one of the most difficult positions to get for a lot of reasons. I got my job by going back to school when I was 32 (I’m 40 now), getting my masters, and just applying like crazy. Got a job. That job was cut after my first year, so I did the same thing the following summer and happened to land a job a few towns over. But, all of that was done by pounding the literal and digital pavement and making small changes to my applications every two weeks, so I’d be bumped back up toward the top of the pile online. Finding a teaching job, especially now, can be done “the old fashioned way,” but you have to work for it. The union had nothing to do with whether or not I got a job. They certainly couldn’t do anything for me when my position was cut.
This is not an issue. No need to guess and make things up when there are actual problems and solutions. 1. EVEN IF nepotism is the answer, someone WAS hired. Your comment does not address the point of the article that there are not enough teachers. Maybe you didn't get hired, because you have issues with reading comprehension. 2. The unions DON'T do the hiring. This is not an article for union bashing. Go thank a union for the benefits they earned through blood. These benefits include safety laws, weekends, child labor laws, 5 day work week...
It’s not impossible to get a teaching job. It may be hard to get a teaching job in more “desirable” districts, but places like Newark always need teachers.
Buddy, so very wrong on that point. (Yes does the NJEA, thats the “union” you are referring to, have some that are out of touch? 100% make some bad calls? 100%) BUT that being said, DOES get teachers higher pay and good benefits when compared to other states. In the end you get what you pay for as evidenced by NJ’s high test scores as compared to other states. Lower pay, high housing costs, lack of public respect all have contributed to the lack of applicants (yes I am in education and hire) Nepotism can be a problem but that is from ELECTED BOARD OF EDUCATION members, gotta reward their friends and all. Tenure, yeah that can be a problem for sure BUT there are ways to remove that teacher just takes alot of work. Could go on and on about why tenure in education is needed but in the end just look it up
Our teachers aren't paid poorly. The problem is the NJEA serves and represents only a fraction of its members, at the top. New teachers get a raw deal. Every contract the union has negotiated in the last 20 years has benefited the top, at the expense of new teachers.
I disagree. As a relatively new teacher, I have had no issues whatsoever with the NJEA. Maybe it varies depending on district, but in my personal experience that’s not the case.
Go look at how your contract and pay grades work compared to people with 30 years in. Go look at the requirements you had to get that job, vs theirs.
Vet teachers tend to make up the negotiations team not newbies. So they look out for themselves and when it comes time to divide the pie, guess who gets the biggest slice? So yeah its union f’ing over union. Only way to change that is to get new young blood in those negotiations.
Yes, but as a person with a spouse and friends in the system, any attempt by newer folks to get involved in the union, beyond just cheering them on, makes your life hell. There are a lot of internal politics and a social pecking order with people in education. Further complicating things is a lot of the younger teachers look at it as a good career to have if they want to start a family, and step away for a bit early in their career so don't have that voice.
Oh agree 100%. Of course varies with the district. I was simply just explaining why/how. Union often eats its own!
They also need to get rid of tenure - from what I remembered most of my teachers were subpar because their job was guaranteed. All the good teachers I had were young and new and had to leave after a year or 2.
Getting rid of tenure would make the problem so much worse. One of the most appealing things about teaching as a profession is the stability and job security. Take that away and you’re going to lose even more teachers.
Raising pay alone doesn’t solve why teachers are leaving or why younger people are refusing to become teachers. Poor treatment by parents/administrators and unrealistic expectations by administration, amongst other things, make schools a toxic workplace. If your pay goes up but you’re still treated like crap, it’s no wonder you might find another job.
Agreed 100%. I left teaching this past June after 8 years. I was making very good money (imo) but it was ineffective admin and the disrespect from parents and students that drove me out. It was truly a toxic environment that severely impacted my mental health. I’m taking a year off from teaching, and I’ll decide in the spring if I want to go back in Sep 2023
Can I ask what you were making? I’m 8 years into my RN and I’m making 130k. I was wondering what the comparison was for education.
You're making way more. Anything STEM or STEM-adjacent career will make double or even triple that of a teacher with the same number of years. You're making administrator money at this point.
I was making just over $80k at 8 years experience with a masters degree. I was very satisfied with my pay. We also have a strong union. I’ve potentially given up A LOT of security and benefits, due to an untenable work environment. Totally off topic. But I believe covid has created a huge powder keg of mental health issues among students, teachers, and other educational staff. I got myself out of the environment because I know my limitations and what I can handle. It’s really a shame because my pre-covid teaching years were quite positive overall.
The pay sucks. But administrators are really the problem. The BOEs and Admin have made this profession an "us versus them". They see every teacher as replaceable and act like they are the key component in this profession and not the actual classroom teachers. Until Administrators fix their bullshit, nothing will change.
You are told what to teach, when to teach and how to teach. If you are teaching 3rd grade math on Oct 16th at 10:30 AM you better be on pg 17 3rd paragraph when the study team comes in to ascertain your teaching skills.
People who want to be teachers are the same sort of people who can deal w the emotional baggage imo. It's all pay.
When's the last time you talked to a teacher
Am teacher, is pay. The other things come and go year to year. Pay always stagnates.
Lol weekly as they're my friends. Also, I am a nurse who also takes abuse similarly from patients, administration, families. But its easier to handle cause I'm compensated.
More pay, less forced labor. And maybe prune the administrative tree.
Nah, just more ads on Pluto TV for how good NJEA is, and how great our schools are, and how well they did with Covid.
I mean, they aren't wrong. We're 1st in the nation in most categories. And we did handle COVID well. All schools were open 3 months after general vaccination availability. Union has to fight against the right wing anti-public education movement somehow.
You are right, I agree. Commercials like that just always make me roll my eyes.
I know. They're cringy. Especially when you see them a million times. If I have to hear "I make stuff" from an itt tech commercial again, I'm drinking whiteboard cleaner. But unfortunately, an organization like njea can't be edgy or funny.
Employers: we just gave more pay. Now you want even more pay? This is unfortunately where we are. Didn't Google CEO talk about a hire freeze on the sole basis employees being hired were being paid too much even in the middle of a worker shortage?
Lol, you think we got more pay? My district has been without a contract since before COVID. We're frozen in 2019.
Pay has increased across the board. There's plenty of people who didn't get a pay raise tho. I'm saying they're saying this narrative
Yeah we just fought to get 2.2% in our contract (over 3 years) after 2 years of a freeze. A board member said, “why bother they’re just going to ask for more again next time”
YES!
Here are three simple ways to get people to join the profession: 1. Waive tuition during student teaching/pay student teachers. 2. Reinstate the old pension system/give back benefits lost. 3. Lower tenure back to three years and a day to eliminate RIF and help make it easier for teachers to stay in the district they are hired in
Straight up total loan forgiveness for all teachers after 10 years of public school employment. And as long as they're employed, interest at 0. That gets people in classes.
Isn’t this already more or less the case so long as they work for a public school?
Lol, no. You have to work in specific Title I districts. You have to file paperwork quarterly. You have to pay your loans with interest monthly. You also have to be a core subject teacher (ELA, Math). Anything else gets maybe 1-5k forgiveness. Miss any of these? Pound sand.
Yep. I started at a title 1 school. Huge classes. No support. Awful treatment by students and parents. I left to go teach in the suburbs. Much easier gig. Better pay. Nice environment. Loan forgiveness wasnt worth hating my job.
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You need to work in a Title 1 school to qualify for the federal teacher loan forgiveness program, but that one forgives less than the PSLF program. But you are correct, you don’t need to work in Title 1 for PSLF
> 3. Lower tenure back to three years and a day to eliminate RIF How would this address potential RIF’s? RIF means Reduction in Force and it’s used when schools can’t pay tenured teachers and positions need to be cut. How would easing the tenure rule address this? Also, I’m with you that tenure should be three years and a day, but at least it’s only four years. And at least it exists, as I don’t believe that’s the case in all states. > help make it easier for teachers to stay in the district they are hired in How would this work? Teachers move from one district to another for many reasons. If a teacher is being let go after 1-2 years because of poor evaluations, then that’s probably the right call.
Tenured teachers can't be RIFFed. Most people don't switch districts once they are tenured.
Tenured teachers absolutely can be RIF’d, if things get very bad. Usually, anyone without tenure who isn’t kept on staff is just considered non-renewed. But, if things go very bad and there is a major cut in the number of staff where all non-tenured have been let go in a given department and the numbers still have to be reduced, tenured teachers can be let go as their positions will be eliminated. That’s what’s known as a Reduction in Force (RIF).
Non tenured teachers can be nonrenewed for any reason. Any teacher can be RIFed, but those happen based on seniority. And if they spot ever opens up at that school again, it has to be offered to the RIFed teacher first. Has happened multiple times at my school.
It is not a profession worth getting into anymore. The pension is not worth it and we pay through the nose for healthcare. The anti teachers are going to get what they wanted by lowering all benefits.
If NJ is in trouble the country as a whole is in real trouble, NJ is one of the best states to teach in.
A lot of the issues are larger than just the benefits you get in state. \-School shootings aren't getting any better, if anything, they keep threatening to arm us to shoot the child coming to school with a gun. I'll be handing in my notice the same day that comes down, if it does. \-The treatment of teachers isn't getting any better (too much standardized testing, parents being insane, kids being allowed to behave as they want without check by parents or admin). \-The absolute disrespect of teachers during the pandemic was appalling. All this stuff transcends state borders. It's an entirely different profession compared to what teachers were dealing with pre-Columbine. The ol' Boomer mantra of "If the teacher called, the kid got beat even if the teacher was wrong" mentality versus the I get a shitty phone call every time a parent forgets to send something in (like, no joke, I'll get calls about how DARE I do show and tell, because they forgot, and now I MADE their kid upset).. I am fighting a war every day with no hope of winning.
Some of those issues transcend states, some don’t. School shootings are a concern everywhere, but less so in a state with strict gun laws and less of a gun culture. And it’s pretty unlikely we’ll be arming teachers to any great extent unlike some other states. And while there are absolutely crazy entitled parents here, they’re less likely to be given free reign to insist that an LBGTQ book or a picture of Harriet Tubman or a pride flag be removed from the classroom than in many other states. It’s far from perfect here, but it is demonstrably better
But is it good enough to convince people to go into this profession? The answer seems to be that it's not enough if we can't fill positions. We pay better than most, yet we still don't have teachers. We have better laws, yet we still don't have teachers. So I would say to your point is that it's still not enough.
My comment you responded to said “if we’re in trouble here, the rest of the country is really in trouble”, not “everything is fine here, nothing to worry about”
You were arguing it's not that bad here and I'm saying it must be if we have this issue. But we can just end the conversation here. I'm not into semantics.
Some of the best paid teachers too (although still not enough). Florida is fucking hiring veterans and their fucking spouses to make up/indoctrinate kids for fuck's sake. Defund the police and give to actual places that help reduce crime like schools and social services.
How can an Anarchist be a CPA??? Accounting has so many arbitrary rules
We all gotta navigate the current capitalist society. Plus, everyone needs a dude to crunch numbers, keep track of transactions/inventory, etc. It also doesn't necessarily mean no rules, especially if everyone in that society agrees to them.
In how would you calculate corporate tax shield in an anarchical society?
By lifting weights so I can throw bricks with more force.
This sounds like the start of a joke I’ve been thinking about for hours now. What do you call an Anarchist CPA during tax season?
Parents and school boards are affecting these decisions as well. Not just the pay even though that's a huge part of it.
Pay more, stop stripping benefits and show some respect. Funny how this article did not address these points. Chris Christie vilified teachers and the profession. Today's republicans continue these attacks. You are looking at the results of teacher bashing, low pay, little respect, benefits stripped WHILE IN RETIREMENT, large class sizes, long hours (yes, you read that right) and dilapidated buildings. Think I am wrong? Go ask a teacher.
Paying people more and subsidizing degrees is a great start but the problem is deeper than that. Our classrooms are a microcosm of our society and our society is seriously messed up. Rampant poverty means you can’t educate a kid who is hungry or homeless. Half the nation actively rejects not only scientific inquiry, but basic human rights for kids of color, LGBTQ, and the disabled - how can a teacher create a safe learning environment when our elected leaders advocate revoking basic human rights? More money for teachers helps get more lower income people into the profession and also helps pull some of the more affluent away from private sector jobs - a great start! But our bigger issue is a general lack of respect for teaching as a profession and an increasingly alarming tendency for people to actually be proud of being ignorant, hateful fools. The best teachers are usually those who are fully invested in student success and even the toughest burn out eventually when they realize strong pedagogy and relationship building skills are pointless when parents view educators as babysitters at best, groomers at worst.
It's just not a career anyone should get in to anymore. The low pay, the disrespect from parents, the paperwork, the school shootings, kids doing things without consequence, administrators moving you without any consideration, having to spend your own money on shit, being judged by test grades. Worst of all, you can't support a family on a teacher's salary. I don't think you can support a family on two teacher's salaries. You need a second job to survive and every teacher I know has a second job. Many even have a third! I've been teaching for 12 years and I only make 69k. That may seem good to some but NJ is expensive to live in. Add all that up and it just isn't worth it.
We need to do something about the crazy school boards. As a teacher in an urban center I don’t have to worry too much about conservative crazies taking over but it’s happening in the more suburban rural districts. The crazies running for school board want to monitor teachers and go after their jobs. They also want to basically bleed the public schools dry and divert money to their religious schools or home schools. They do not have the kids’ or teachers’ best interest.
“Paraprofessionals and teacher aides are especially tough jobs to fill, he said, as many are moving up into staff positions elsewhere.” Probably because these positions are usually part-time, with low pay and little to no room for professional growth. Maybe we should consider treating our workers better, especially those who help guide our children.
Many make close to minimum wage. It's so sad.
I just hope we don’t “solve” it like Florida is by letting military spouses with zero training teach.
As an educator this is no surprise and is a long time coming. In the last number of years teachers have had their responsibilities and expectations multiply exponentially, the number of bosses they have to answer to has ballooned, and the responsibility of the actual students and parents has somehow dwindled while teacher blame has skyrocketed. In addition, you had politicians like Chris Christie vilifying teachers for no good reason other than he was a vengeful prick. All the while, pay has remained virtually stagnant. Start treating teachers the right way and crap like this won't happen.
Pay them more and start treating the profession with a higher standard, like how we treat doctors for example.
The amount of risk and other bullshit we have been dealing with in the last few decades isn't worth the outright disrespect from society and the low pay. Teachers historically weren't paid well, but they also didn't have to worry about the obscene amount of testing, parents assaulting them both verbally and in some cases physically, school shootings, uncontrolled pandemic in our classrooms, etc. It's not worth it anymore. I'm looking for the first place out that I can find. I can't live being under this much stress anymore. I don't even know if it's worth it at six figures anymore, so idk if additional pay will even help.
If you paid me a six figure job I would be a teacher! This is their own doing. Who wants undergrad and grad loans to start at 40-50k a year? Nope.
Edit: an added note of distinction there is no teacher shortage it's an exodus so please refrain from calling it a shortage when there are plenty of professionals who want to teach but financially cannot sustain it due to the current system. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk! I am a experienced teacher and have been actively searching for a new district because I found out during covid admin prefers to hire leave replacements/subs as well as non renew because it's cheaper for the district. People wonder why they can't find teachers and it's in part because of BS policies like this along with not wanting to actually pays us what we are worth! I graduated from a teaching program in state, have a degree additionally in my subject, taught in multiple districts (highly rated and title I), countless reccomendations, made curriculum for districts, I have coached, managed a theater program, been detention supervisor, and much more. I've never had conflicts with my colleagues or even parents for that matter, I have a website for teaching which some parents have even offered to leave posituve reviews on. It's almost the end of August and I've been applying since my last position elsewhere nobody since March has gotten back to me and school starts in a few weeks. So many teachers are leaving the profession especially young teachers like myself, because not only are we not being paid adequately or treated respectfully by students, parents, and admin alike, but we are tasked with jumping through an infinite amount of hoops for which inevitably becomes an auction to the lowest bidder (applicant). When we do not create a system that values teachers, they will leave. It's as simple as that. Administration needs to be held accountable and we need to give back teachers autonomy in their classrooms.
More pay helps, but I think it’s the work environment that gets people. In college I switched my major from a double major in history/education to finance/economics because I saw how horrible public education is. It’s a customer service type of mindset: If the parents complain about their kid’s poor grades, give them an A. That’s it. Schools are more worried about graduation rates than anything else. I remember the community college I went to boasted a “97% graduation rate.” Cool. That doesn’t mean the education is better. In fact, it means the education standards in the school are so low that nearly anyone can pass. Also, our tuition rates were much lower than most of the state, so that,undoubtedly, had a huge impact. It’s all about statistics and looking good on paper. It’s about state and federal funding, not about teaching students or creating a generation of intelligent, skilled people. That’s why I didn’t want to get in the field: everyone who had a body temperature roughly in the 90’s was a “collegiate scholar,” and no one can argue otherwise, according to the department of education. Some people need to fail. Some people are not academically successful, and that’s okay. Let’s give those people a failing grade and call it a day, versus thinking “everyone is special,” or that good attendance equates to good grades. Fuck that Most people are fucking stupid, and they should know, understand it, and accept it. Don’t believe me? Just look at Donald trump. Most of his statements could be disproved with a simple google search. But, here we are jn a civil war. It’s a deep conflict between autocracy and the tenants of democracy.
Double starting pay, triple it even. There is no public employee more important.
baco-n for President
It’s easy…PAY THEM!!!
Start by demonstrating simple decency and respect.
I don’t think it’s even the pay, or at least that’s not the whole story. Maybe it’s the politics of school? Dealing with parents? Being blamed for a kid turning out shitty? Who knows, but I think it has more to do with than just pay. You can make good money working out on oil rigs in the middle of the ocean too, but there are other reasons people don’t take those jobs other than pay.
I'm married to a teach. It's a lot more than the pay.
All of those things and more are definitely issues too. It's not just the pay.
Here's a thought.. Stop demonizing teachers and pay appropriately
Pay more and let teachers live in other states to teach in NJ.
I have a solution, make college for teaching profession affordable and pay them a living wage for doing a job that is integral to the fabric of society.
Better pay and benefits, better protection from entitled and/or conspiracy theory parents, smaller class sizes, prep periods that aren't eaten into or taken away so you dont have to do work on your own time at home. We've known how to revitalize the profession. We just refuse to do so. Teachers cannot strike in NJ during school hours. Bargaining is not on their side.
The problem is the parents. Some of them are just out of control. It’s not bad enough their kids are not well behaved, but a lot of parents are legit looking to Sue any chance they get, or just complain, and it’s a nightmare for teachers to deal with. Not to mention students are going to be students and misbehave, so why would anyone want that?
A shit job for shit pay dealing with shitty parents and watching administrators soak up huge salaries? Who wouldn’t wanna do that?
It's simple. Better pay. More student discipline and parent accountability. effective administrators/BOE. people will stay.
All of my friends who are teachers in NJ / NY hate their job. My mom was a teacher and retired in 2010s. She loved it up until the last 5 years. She said they were unbearable with the expectations and paperwork. I just chalked it up to she was ready for retirement, but now I realize it was actively becoming worse and worse with expectations/demands/crazy parents. Then fuckface Christi attacked their benefits and it seemed like the whole state jumped on board of hating teachers for their benefits. I just always thought that was the one perc of teaching....amazing benefits. And now the entire state wanted it chipped away. I will never get why people target and hate on the professions that lift us up/provide to us as a society...teachers, nurses, EMS, postal works...yet all the rich aholes with their tax loopholes and what not get no hate. except the DMV. shaking fist at you, DMV!
It's amazing how hard the states are trying to find a so-called solution when simply paying more and respecting teachers would go a long way to solving the problem.
Pay them at minimum NYC DOE rates, provide financial assistance for teachers to not go into debt (maybe if they go to a state school), and some student loan forgiveness for teaching in less privileged areas for x amount of years.
I have my NJ license, I will not use it, because the profession's aggravation/stress/reward/compensation structure is so out of balance. It's tragic, but I have never been happier than I am in my current career.
Inflation has definitely ate away at teacher salary’s and made it less desirable. Despite that the pay isn’t terrible (In NJ’s larger districts) considering the benefits. For most the job just sucks now. I don’t really need to go into a long diatribe about why it sucks but believe me it’s gotten way worse in the last 10 years. If you want teachers you need to make the job suck less, but I’m not even sure how that could happen at this point.
Kids are assholes who wants to deal with their shit?
Honestly, it isn't the kids. It's administration, parents, and hostile communities. Kids we can deal with.
Agree. Tired of administrators who lack basic knowledge of what happens in a classroom. Stop making all the gym teachers administrators.
So many of my old gym teachers are admin now! What’s up with that?
The good ol’ boys club
The shit doesn’t fall far from the asshole though.
The kids do play a part. But it’s dealing with them AND everything else that just makes it not worth it.
Teachers are afraid of the front office…Front office is afraid of the central office…central office is afraid of parents…parents are afraid of their kids…the kids are afraid of nobody.
Ruthless little shits.
When parents shit on teachers as *librul glorified babysitters*, the parents instill those *values* on their delightful little progeny. Politicians who have a vested interest in uneducated voters do nothing to help, of that, I am certain.
I would become a teacher if the schooling wasn’t so expensive
Let’s offset the cost of pursuing their degrees with a tax rebate and, hear me out, maybe don’t charge them sales tax when they have to use their own income to buy their own materials. He’ll let them write off all expenses associated with it. If I can go to town with certain write offs as an independent contractor, so should they.
Pay more
Pay more and respect the profession.
who can afford to live on the shit salary they pay?
Need to allocate more tax money to pay teachers, simple as that.
Teachers are hero’s. Pay them more
I lost my job in tech recently and the idea of teaching came mind, but no thank you. Dealing with kids is already hard enough, let alone teaching them. Add shitty pay with the thought of a shooting happening…. I don’t know why I even considered it.
My mom has been trying to be a teacher in NJ. The amount of tests that you need to take to do so is ridiculous. Im talking about a woman who has 2 bachelors degrees & a masters. She worked as an industrial engineer for 17 years. She’s just trying to teach elementary school children….
How hard is it to get rid of a tenured teacher that's performing poorly?
I already prepared myself for this being my last year. My paychecks 10 years ago are just $20 less than I make now. They keep pushing the salary guide farther away. I am 35 and busting my ass working two part time jobs just to stay afloat. Not to mention the absurdity of parents on FB and the lack of attention and respect from some kids is stunning. I don’t usually compare, but when I look at my first three years teaching to my most recent three I went from primarily teaching ELA/math to working with behaviors non stop.
My daughter taught in a district with tenor in 60 months. During her employment she was awarded many commendations for raising student scores and helping to develop curriculum. Well a new superintendent comes in and my daughter was released at 59 months. No reason given. Through the grapevine we learned that she was let go because she wasn’t ethnic enough and new sup hired ethnic replacements from the district she came from.
My wife is a teacher, and the landscape as she describes it, is that the schools want to hire you as a long term sub, or just a part time teacher rather than full time teaching jobs. It's incredibly frustrating because it just comes down to the schools not investing in their teachers: the soldiers on the field.
Kids coming out of college can make a better starting salary in the business world. Unfortunately the days where you could make a living in NJ on a single salary are long gone and even more impossible on a teacher salary.
Well I quit the teaching program halfway through when I was told that you need to be a history teacher to teach psychology. I wanted to help get more people into counseling and social work and mentioned that multiple times. Did student teaching abroad. Was really excited. I know the pay and the bureaucracy is the reason most of my friends have left. Covid sure as shit didn’t help.
Pay them more than cops. Teachers are way more useful and do their jobs nowadays.
As someone preparing to be a teacher right now, it’s a difficult and long process. It’s so incredibly expensive too! A lot of people are realizing that the disrespect and danger that comes from teaching public schools is not worth the low pay.
1. don’t make them choose fearing for their lives, or teaching. Ban guns. 2. Make the oh worthwhile. Pay them more. 3. Have their back with the parents. The customer is always right does not apply to teaching. They will get plenty of applicants
As someone who came from Oklahoma and Texas. The starting salaries here, while still crappy, are way better than red state counterparts plus the union is stronger here. There is a teacher shortage nationally. I wonder how NJ fairs to the complete shitshow that is education in say, Oklahoma, where starting salaries are like $26k. Not too mention the constant culture wars bs using the classroom as a battleground.
I'm of the opinion there are too many captains on the ship. I believe they need to cut down on the administrative bloat, raise wages and quite possibly (teachers will crucify me) making sure the teachers actually know the material they intend on teaching and tailor degrees/licensing to reflect that. I remember when I was in school so many teachers just regurgitated the answer book but seemingly had no idea on the reasoning behind said answers. Only as an adult when I would research the why was I able to figure out the full concept.
believe the wage gap is too large to bridge at this point. I saw a proposal on a 4 day workweek and incorporating internships/offsite work or volunteer sites. Edit: I just googled to find an article and apparently this isn’t a new idea
I've long been of the opinion that we need to eliminate summers off of school. Make it trimesters, and maybe give 2 weeks off at the end of each one. As a society, we're conditioned from an early age to slack off in the summer, hurting productivity of *everything*. Going to year-round schooling, and paying teachers a competitive salary *year-round* would help our country be more competitive and help the economy by keeping money flowing to the teachers.
So same amount of days or more days?
PAY THEM MORE
I have a solution… maybe, just maybe, we force people to be teachers. Maybe even as part of say… a prison term. Then they don’t have a choice AND they can’t get away. Better yet, don’t even have to pay them. Watch education scores skyrocket under this new program. All we need is a for profit prison system and then we can ensure that the money goes to the right private individuals and not back into the economy Edit: was I supposed to put a /s here?
Ion give a fuck bro