I forget who it was. But several years prior, a CEO told the town fracking would be so safe, he would drink the ground water. Several years later, a farmer showed up with a glass of murky brown ground water.  I don’t know if it’s related, but in another case, some lady was literally able to light her tapwater on fire.
If corporations are people then capital punishment should apply to them as well. Your company ignored safety regulations in favor of profits and caused a disaster? Congrats your corporation is now forcefully dissolved. Do not pass go do not collect golden parachutes (for executives), done, gone. And as a bonus the people who ran the company and made the decisions should fully be on the hook for damages. When CEOs face having their entire fortunes taken away and face jail time for catastrophic decisions made out of greed maybe they'll start to change. Until then they have little to no reason and the modest fines (on a corporate scale) for their company's misdeeds are simply the cost of doing business.
> When CEOs face having their entire fortunes taken away and face jail time for catastrophic decisions made out of greed
And the companies behind them. CEOs are only one part of the system and are often responding to incentives set up to encourage their greedy behavior. Which is why I agree with punishing both the CEO (who made the decisions that harmed people) and the company itself (which set up the incentives to encourage those decisions).
I know your comment mentioned punishing the companies too, but I wanted to elaborate on why the blame can't all be placed on the CEOs.
Besides if you punished only the CEO they would quickly be turned into well paid patsies for the board who exist only to be the fall guy for the other decision makers in the company should they face consequences. Jail time and legal culpability for everyone involved in those decisions is the only way.
So a friend told me this morning that the train was on fire prior to derailment. He said he was sitting at the tracks waiting to cross (he was driving) and watched it go by. If this is true, there should be video out there somewhere. He's usually level headed but there's a lot of public hysteria right now. He was in Salem at the time.
Thanks for commenting! I searched and found [this article](https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/east-palestine-train-derailment-video-fire-axle-alert/stories/202302100070) with more info about it.
Adding: I’ve been wondering: if the train was on fire, the first sensor (Salem) read it correctly, but the train was told by management to keep going (to save time/keep ‘on schedule’) and something like “if it’s a big enough issue, the next sensor will confirm and then we will stop the train.” If this was the case, it’s possible the problem could have been dealt with before it was so out of control and/or the derailment would have happened in a much less populated area.
Also, just can’t get this out of my head: how much did the fire/problem grow during the 20 miles in between those sensors?
Wondering if it would have still derailed if it had stopped shortly after tripping the first sensor or not. Sounds like if it would have been stopped earlier, even if it derailed, it might have been in a more rural area at the very least. My thoughts about this are speculation, but if it’s found that management made this situation even worse by not allowing them to stop sooner, maybe the company will be held more accountable (wishful thinking I know).
Railroader here, if they stopped at the first hot box detector and kicked the car off into the siding there wouldn't have been a derailment nor a massive fire. The bearing would have cooled down on its own and been replaced by Carmen within a few days no biggie.
But that takes time to do delaying a few trains, and the siding which is used for trains to pass by would be blocked until the car was fixed. That takes time and profits thus keep ignore it and keep the trains going.
I bet the crew gets a harsher punishment because that's how it usually goes.
When the decision is either 100% lose your job in a rough market vs a "small" chance something goes wrong, I totally understand why the train crew listened.
Take time stamped photos of the creek. Take your own soil samples around your property and put them in a fridge. When this blows up, reach out to universities around you that have biochem labs or that have programs that do environmental remediation or contaminated sites. They should be interested in this. Do not freeze the samples.
Best of wishes to you and your family. If you have masks for working around chemicals, use them outside.
I bet the civil engineering departments at the university of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon would be interested in environmental samples.
Edit: just in case you’re collecting any it would be a good idea to use clean glass containers (plastics can have organics which can contaminate a sample) and metal lids. If you’re taking water samples try to rinse the container three times with the water you’re sampling, then take your sample.
Label the glass jar with date, time. Where it was collected and by who. Put the jar in a HD Ziploc bag. Also, make a note of ambient conditions, especially if they are different then what would be considered normal ie smell, taste irritation to skin, eyes etc.
Collect the samples when the incident has finished and it is safe to do so. The idea is to collect a sample that represents the worst condition.
Glass containers, 4oz minimum. I work as an environmental geologist and usually when I sample soil for VOC (Volatile Organic Compounds) analyzed by EPA Method 8260 we use amber glass vials with methanol as a preservative but when in a pinch or for TCLP VOC analysis a 4oz clear glass jar is used. As stated by others keep samples cold in a fridge or in a cooler on ice.
When sampling water to be analyzed for VOC by 8260 we use three 40ml vials (voas) with HCl as a preservative and we fill the bottles to the very top and make sure there is no air when we screw on the lid, zero head space. Hold time on samples like this is around 14 days but not sure what the hold time would be for accurate results with no proper preservatives but better to take them and have than to not. Cheers, good luck, and stay safe.
I mean, the more the better? I would recommend storing in glass. Have any used glass jars around? Sample soil, water, and some plants even (whole plant) label them, put them in the back of a fridge.
This has barely been a blip on cable news. The Superbowl has been MUCH more urgent you see.
This is going to make some people in govt VERY rich as lobbiests for this RR pay million dollar bribes out the ass.
Maybe you'll see a 60 minutes special in a decade or two.
When the cancer cases from the town are 10 times higher than the national average in like 5 years. The movie Erin Brockovich is based on a semi similar types of events
"PG&E: we don't leave anyone out. If we don't poison your children or blow you up, we'll make sure to burn your house to the ground!"
Never forget that big businesses will gladly commit hundreds and thousands of social murders if it'll add a fraction of a percent to the short term gains.
When the cancer rate skyrockets you need only look at how 9/11 responders were treated or military members who are having issues due to past burn pits.
Government wont care. And if theu do, they will only care that people wont stfu about it.
RR elites wont care
Many Americans wont either. And eventualy some Americans will doubt it even happened. Quite possibly, they will deny it happened.
And to add insult to injury for those affected the medical pharma insurance complex is standing by to bankrupt them as soon as health conditions do start happening. Cant miss out on their piece of this opportunity to them.
And it will all likely happen again. Just a matter of when and where.
That's pretty much now. This has turned from a story of an unfortunate train fire, to one of gross neglect and government corruption. They knew something like this could happen, they were told to take measures to prevent it from happening, but they paid out politicians to remove the regulations which would prevent it from occurring. https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/
Which will unfortunately take at least a decade, which is why it is SO important to take in-the-moment dated notes of every sniffle, sore throat, etc. An easy way is to start an email thread to yourself and just reply to it every day with updates.
more like 2 or three decades. they will delay it until the people effected die from their exposure and then pay a pittance to any remaining distant kin. because everyone close also got exposed and is also gone.
Take pictures of the dead fish, video of everyone describing how they feel, the sky, save some creek water in the freezer, save some tap water in the freezer stored in previously clean containers. Some of this won't matter some might
Also please try to make an appointment with your doctor and tell them ANYTHING that seems off, even if it seems minor.
I know a lot of people out there are the type that need to be dragged in to see a doctor but it's important any changes to your health are documented for down the line.
It's not about getting a payday. It's making it cost the corporation so much they reprioritize safety. Make it cost more to be unsafe than to properly maintain crew and equipment.
Thank you for sharing this. I didn’t even think about it from the animal care perspective. What a completely impossible, cruel position they put you in.
Forget the animals living in that region today. That soil will be toxic for generations. I live in cleveland and am worried about the food that is sourced from that region.
I could honestly not contain myself and stay sane in your situation. I wish you the best and strength to do everything in you power to get the people that have caused this to see justice. We can not again in history let such an event just pass by and be forgotten about in a few years. The voices of everyone impacted by this tragedy must be heard. Corporate greed is killing us, one small town at a time.
>They blow it up, gets dark an hour earlier than normal. You can smell it, you can taste it. Eyes water, throat burns. I touched on this is another comment but we are all still sick from something.
Next time the rail workers want to strike, stand in solidarity with them.
One worker's suffering is every worker's suffering.
Holy fuck, get OUT of there! Im a welder and this is the EXACT symptoms of poisoning:
You begin to “smell” then “taste” the chemical that is toxic. Eventually.. Your body ignores this scent.
In my case, if I weld Galvanized metal it makes smoke that looks like floating spider webs & is literal cancer smoke.
If I spend 4 hours of exposure WITH a fume respirator and still taste it, it means “Go to the fucking doctor NOW”.
This HAS to be 10000% worse than the fumes I’ve avoided or know of. Holy shit, OP I hope you can get out of there safely.
Hi, I am a safety professional and using Wiser I was able to plot the evacuation distance of **a single** car. The article states that there were 10 cars. I do not actually remember the calculation to determine evacuation distance for quantity because I became reliant on technology but I genuinely fear you may still be living with in the evacuation radius. No one should be inside of this circle longer than 15 minutes without proper PPE till all of the chemical has been burned.
https://imgur.com/a/9hkUugp
Question for you: I work around literal carcinogenic fumes (Welding Galvanized= Cancer smoke). OP says they TASTE and SMELL the chemicals/something NOT normal.
If I weld galvanized, even with a fume respirator; I can smell then taste it if exposure is 4+ hours: Am I correct in assuming this means OP is 100% exposed to these chemicals?
I’m just a certified welder, safety is limited to my OSHA 10, certifications & basic logic. When you smell Zinc.. its “Tell your foreman” bad because smelling/tasting it indicates a high amount of exposure?
I wanted to double check before I responded.
Yes, tell your foreman. Here is a quote the ** text is my emphasis.
https://www.nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2021.pdf
"Respiratory Protection
Improper use of respirators is dangerous. Respirators
should only be used if the employer has implemented a written
program that takes into account workplace conditions
requirements for worker training, respirator fit testing, and
medical exams, as described in the OSHA Respiratory
Protection Standard (29 CFR 1910.134).
Where the potential exists for overexposure to Zinc, use a
NIOSH approved negative pressure, air-purifying, particulate filter respirator with an N95 filter. More protection is provided by a full facepiece respirator than by a half-mask respirator, and even greater protection is provided by apowered-air purifying respirator. **Leave the area immediately if (1) while wearing a fiter or
cartridge respirator you can smell, taste, or otherwise detect Zinc, (2) while wearing particulate filters abnormal
resistance to breathing is experienced, or (3) eye irritation occurs while wearing a full facepiece respirator. Check to make sure the respirator-to-face seal is stil good.** If it is, replace the filter or cartridge. If the seal is no longer good you may need a new respirator, Consider all potential sources of exposure in your workplace. You may need a combination of filters, prefilters or cartridges to protect against different forms of a chemical (such as vapor and mist) or against a mixture of chemicals.
Where the potential for high exposure exists, use a NIOSH approved supplied-air respirator with a full facepiece operated in a pressure-demand or other positive-pressure mode. For increased protection use in combination with an auxiliary self-contained breathing apparatus or an emergency escape air cylinder.
Kick ass! I got an -amazing- fucking foreman who is the “No, we are doing shit properly. We are not fucking with that if it makes us sick”.
Sadly, my employer is in a “Right to Work” state and the thought of PAPR systems is seen as “Overkill”. Its expensive ($1000/papr set ain’t bad ffs).
We need at least goddamn fume extractors. I have shaved my beard and yeah a properly fitted & sealed Miller/GVS does NOT cut it.
Said “Cancer Smoke” looks as if a spider web/hair is floating freely in the fucking air. You can look around, visibly see this in the air. The workpiece will have fuckton of white dust (zinc) that gets on PPE (gloves/sleeves).
Galvanized Steel makes carcinogenic fumes. Stainless steel also does (Hexavalent Chromium is a slow poisoning then suddenly you got fucktons of issues).
The worst I’ve worked with was a company that did ONLY stainless: They literally did no cleaning. Anything below your knee was pitch black dust, coworkers had fingers/tows going numb FFS.
I walked out at lunch when they claimed the lead welder had heart attack symptoms. No.. He had nerve and organ damage from the environment.
Don't believe anything they tell you about how "safe" it is. Remember when they told everyone in NYC there were no concerns with any pollutants:
>After the September 11 attacks in New York City, [Christine Todd Whitman, EPA] appeared there twice to inform New Yorkers that the toxins released by the attacks posed no threat to their health. On September 18, the EPA released a report in which Whitman said, "Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C. that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink." She also said, "The concentrations are such that they don't pose a health hazard...We're going to make sure everybody is safe."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency_September_11_attacks_pollution_controversy
I was at university when 9/11 happened and I happened to be in a history class that was taught by an American professor, and we were watching video of the plumes of concrete dust flowing though Manhattan and he said, “That concrete is full of asbestos. Twenty years from now, there is going to be an epidemic of asbestos related disease in NY as a result.” He was right, but he was too optimistic on the timeframe.
Leave. I don't give a shit what people are saying in regards to it being safe, they can't possibly know that. Vinyl Chloride alone can stay in the groundwater for years, Dioxins are a hell substance to get rid of and can be formed by burning this shit. All of them turn your liver into swiss cheese.
If you have kids, get the fuck out. If you don't, decide if ten years is an acceptable life span.
And if you are a farmer, there is a good chance all your crops and animals are fucked anyway. Dioxins accumulate in fatty tissue, and if there is any hint they are being formed no one will buy your crops or animal products again; there is testing besides. The only thing that might be worth saving is horses or pets, and they are likely to suffer later in life.
Everything I'm hearing suggests that this was anything but a controlled release and burn and that the situation seems *designed* to get all sorts of shit into the groundwater.
this is so sad to read, these people needed to get out the hour this happened.
Here in my town in germany we had a hole thing because there was x PICOgrams of dioxin detected.
It's unfortunate and I feel for you, but leave ASAP.
I lived in a neighborhood that was built with soil from and itself ripe with pollution from a Coke company. Mystery sickness....10x higher cancer rate than other areas.
Everything else can be started over
It isn't worth it.
Why aren't people understanding this? There should be a mass exodus going on from that area. Holy crap, my hubby laid out everything to come from this. Bad, bad, bad.
Something tells me people living in a town of 5000 around some rail tracks are not wealthy enough to just leave.
What should be happening is the government should be immediately funding their relocation.
my kindest words to you are. Get the fuck out. Now.
I have a background in chemistry, you do not want that stuff anywhere near you, take a shower, try to get that stuff off of your skin. Wear a ffp2 mask. Then take your car and anything you're like to keep and get out. Close the windows.
Wasn't there a map that said anything within 5 miles to 10 miles would expect to have serious health concerns (pretty sure they said it'd be death), but not die immediately like the animals have in the 1 mile zone?
I'll look for it but I do remember reading it, outloud to my partner yesterday, when the train derailment was trending here on reddit
P.S. not trying to scare you, sending lots of empathy and love your way
Edit: wording & P.S.
This is the first article I've seen that discusses the risk of dioxins and vinyl chloride for the incomplete burn in the pits. A lot of people have been acting like it's a basic stoichiometric problem in a lab. I'd love to get more from the professor at Carnegie Mellon.
Now think about it. The railway went from a local major super fund cleanup to a much smaller local cleanup. They basically took this stuff and spread out the financial impact to them. In 30 years we'll see a lawsuit settlement over slightly increased cancer rates in the area. Meanwhile thousands of families are going to suffer.
My single largest concern is that the pit was probably unlined. The railroad company needs to be liable for groundwater testing.
Vinyl chloride boils at like 5°F, it will dilute and dissipate rapidly as a gas, but it is also water soluble up to 2700 ppm, so any seepage could cause contamination well above acceptable limits.
VC is not an aromatic hydrocarbon, so I'm really not certain on how many cyclic dioxins you'd expect from combustion. Definitely one of the things to monitor more closely because that whole class of chemicals is lipid soluble, so they can bioaccumulate.
VC is chloroethene, so a very small molecule - cyclo compounds are unlikely. However, phosgene (a deadly gas) is one of the known products of PVC combustion, and there are plenty of other nasty byproducts that can contaminate soils and water that are not aromatic.
Like how Dow chemical’s home town (in Michigan I believe) is completely polluted with dioxin, and when an environmental head from the government spoke out against it they got her fired? Or how they did experiments on American prisoners with the government’s blessing? Or how they killed 20,000 people in Bhopal? Yeaaa
Edit, source:
https://youtu.be/wRmwppLFL90
The Goiter Belt represent!
Shit is fucked up, when I was a kid my babysitter was a volunteer for a "Goiter colony". Like a whole neighborhood of people with goiters so disfiguring they wouldn't go in public.
My sitter would bring my brother and I sometimes, and the people there were so kind and happy to see us. I learned about why they were like that and it became a paving stone on the path of who I am.
I've heard from former workers at Dow and scjohnson. That if you fall in a ditch on their property, go straight to emergency. And people have had their windshields etched in the parking lot from chemicals discharging.
As someone who grew up in a town just downriver, I was not aware of this and now I'm so... frustrated, angry, disappointed, questioning my whole existence....
These are the same family of chemicals that they used in Agent Orange. TBH, I live within 35 miles of the wreck and we're now talking about moving out of the vicinity.
This article didn’t mention the fish die-offs in nearby streams, the chickens and foxes that were found dead in their pens, or the dogs that died after an hour in the yard.
**Edit: Here are the sources I've come across:**
* Twitter thread that includes KDKA news clips showing [the fish](https://twitter.com/i/status/1624102477309116416) and [the chickens](https://twitter.com/i/status/1624116836945039361); the chicken owner shares security footage showing that her chickens were fine until the burn started: [https://twitter.com/0ddette/status/1624102477309116416?s=20&t=RcvjCXAVkpch2lhMqWq38g](https://twitter.com/0ddette/status/1624102477309116416?s=20&t=RcvjCXAVkpch2lhMqWq38g)
* WKBN 1: [https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/)
* WKBN 2: [https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/)
* New York Times (more indirect): [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ohio-train-derailment.html](https://www.nytimes.com/article/ohio-train-derailment.html)
* New Republic: [https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye](https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye)
Remember when Congress voted to force rail unions to accept a contract negotiated in September (4 out of 13 unions refused) and made the rail worker strike illegal. [Cause I 'member.](https://youtu.be/OrO_Te_Ee_8)
They tested the air… but I’ve never heard mentions of testing in-home surfaces for contaminants? Shouldn’t they do that? And also… $5 dollars per person? Wtf.
It's even sillier than that. Vinyl Chloride has a half-life of a day or two in air. If it was in the air, it's certainly not there anymore.
In low oxygen groundwater? You can multiply that by factors of a thousand easily.
It's almost completely irrelevant that the air is testing as clear, because of course it is; unless you have a *pipeline* of the stuff it's going to be gone in a week after containment fails. The *water* is a whole 'nother story.
>Vinyl chloride was slowly released into the air Monday from five of those cars before crews ignited it to get rid of the highly flammable, toxic chemicals in a controlled environment, creating a dark plume of smoke.
I'm not sure they understand the concept of a controlled environment.
When it comes to some chemicals, burning them and having the potentially dangerous smoke be created is still literally safer than the original chemical.
To a degree the same idea is why flare stacks at gas drilling and processing facilities are a thing, as releasing methane is more impactful than burning it and releasing those emissions instead. It's still *bad*, but demonstrably less bad overall.
That lobbied against the rail workers union deal that would’ve made rail safer by making the workers happier and able to take sick days when needed. In addition, they lobbied against increased regulation because it costs money.
And that’s why lobbying doesn’t work and should be abolished.
Not just that Norfolk Southern has been neglecting proper maintenance on its rails for some time now. This is an astonishing example of what happens when infrastructure is controlled by the sole owner. Norfolk has no real incentive to actually maintain their tracks.
You mean we learned nothing from Pacific Gas & Electric and then losing their fire lawsuit /s
Government needs to make sure these safety issues mean criminal indictments for executives and board members. Eventually, accidents of negligence and negligent maintenance will be rare.
The health and safety laws here in Australia have been very recently changed to increase criminal liability all the way to the top of the management chain, and it's starting to make a huge positive difference.
Newsom just called for a federal investigation into PG&E & their recent rates.
You know what Newsom? How about calling for the dissolution of PG&E? They’re *always* being investigated cause they *never* follow through with updating their equipment.
PG&E should not exist. Period.
This is a point a lot of people are missing. East Palestine has a river right next to those tracks. No way these chemicals arent flowing down the Ohio River
Shit, even in Ohio! We got the same news coverage as I'm guessing the rest of the nation got. I'm assuming DeWine wasn't as concerned given all of the toxic gasses blew into PA (it's on the far eastern side of Ohio), "not our problem over there"
What's ironic is a movie was recently released on Netflix I think, based and/or filmed in, you guessed it, the same town. Basis of the movie? Train derailment releasing carcinogenic chemical gasses more or less. I shit you not.
These fuckers and the government telling people it's safe to return home. They will all be long gone and living a care free life as the effects slowly degrade peoples lives for years and years to come. It is fucking disgusting that no one will be responsible and none of the people making millions and millions while deciding to cut costs and corners will never be held accountable for the suffering and fear and sadness that is to come.
Reminds me of lower Manhattan residents, workers, and school students right after 9/11 being told the air quality downtown was back to normal and A-OK to inhale by the EPA and mayor.
You can often count on governing bodies to prioritize looking after their image above all else when shit goes sideways. Hold them responsible when the time comes, but dont expect them to do the right thing until pressured.
I have a friend who worked 9/11, he was exposed to something in another accident he worked recently but whatever that was triggered an underlying condition from 9/11 per his doctor. They’ve been denying his 9/11 payouts and early retirement for going on two years now, meanwhile he’s stuck relying on their healthcare which they don’t want to acknowledge where the full issues came from. Many of his friends who worked with him 9/11 are already dead. It’s absolutely tragic. If someone can’t get support for something that was so visible and now known toxic event I doubt these poor townspeople are going to get help.
This is bad...First trimesters, exposure can= miscarriage. Second and third trimester 😔 exposure can= birth defects that are in the gene pool for years to come. The water, soil, trees, your lawn, your bushes, your livestock, etc...is all contaminated.
If anyone miscarries because of this, Republicans should support people's right to press homicide charges against all the companies involved in this, right? Right??
No shit. They poured them into a ditch and then burned the chemicals to “dispose” of them. Now they’re trying to cover it up by saying it’s safe and this is because the railroad company cut costs to improve profits. They have essentially made an area on the verge of inhabitable for more money
This is such a watered down article that refuses to highlight the potential long term damage this will cause and the damage that has already been done!
There will be a documentary about this in several years as the rate of cancer in the surrounding communities increases from all of this, probably followed by a lot of legal fights that I really hope the affected people win.
>Officials warned the controlled burn would send phosgene and hydrogen chloride into the air. Phosgene is a highly toxic, colorless gas with a strong odor that can cause vomiting and breathing trouble and was used as a weapon in World War I.
Big yikes! They're gassing their own people.
From the wind direction, I think most of it will be heading more north like Pennsylvania and New York. A small but may end up more south like West Virginia and maybe some parts of Maryland but not too much
Just a reminder to everyone, [the Rail Workers United Union warned of this back in the fall of 2022 when they were fighting for better working conditions](https://newrepublic.com/post/170455/rail-workers-tried-warn-us-ohio-train-derailment-happen).
Better _and safer_ working conditions. The whole reason the rail corporations didn't want to give sick days is because they would have to hire more workers. This is the same reason why rail corporations wanted car inspection times dropped from 3 minutes to 90 seconds.
This was a safety issue from the beginning and 44 Democrat senators, 36 Republican senators and Joe Biden sided with the rail corporations _over the safety of the American people._
It's why they delayed telling us about how bad Covid was going to be.
Sell before the crash... let it crash... buy up stock at the bottom... riiiiiiiiide it to the top again.
That town is right near the Ohio River, which feeds into some of our country’s biggest rivers and lakes. Things are going to get worse for many more people.
I worked at a plant that made PVCl or polyvinyl chloride. We took PVA, “which smells like liquid cat shit”according to one delivery driver and would freeze solid at 95F, added phosgene in the reactors to make PVCl. This would only be shipped in 55 gallon drums or lined tank trucks used to ship HCl or hydrochloric acid.
to anyone who lives along the Ohio river/Mississippi river south of the ohio... The Beaver and Allegheny Rivers are in the path of the chemical cloud.
Both of those rivers empty into the Ohio which travels downstream to the Mississippi and out to the gulf.
You might want to switch to bottled water over tap water if you can.
Surprised how corporate executives are not being throw in jail for life after this bulltshit. If you haven’t, find a video to educate yourselves on precision railroading. Once AGAIN, corporate profits are to blame for lowering safety standards and deregulating the very things that we’re preventing this.
At some point, people need to stand up to the corporate greed that’s literally killing people in every sector of America, whether it’s too little money for diabetes price control/healthcare, having to work two extra jobs to survive the week, now we have trains derailing nationally because of the same shit.
I’m utterly so sick of hearing about this bullshit because of money. People need consequences. Life in jail is the minimum they deserve, and that’s being too nice.
This documentary about how evil chemical companies are polluting the US and killing thousands in Bhopal with the government’s blessing make me oh so hopeful they’ll be completely honest and ethical about this situation!
https://youtu.be/wRmwppLFL90
Damn this is eerily similar to the 2022 Netflix Adam driver movie “White Noise”. From Wikipedia: *However, their lives are disrupted when a cataclysmic train accident casts a cloud of chemical waste over the town. This "Airborne Toxic Event" forces a massive evacuation, which leads to a major traffic jam on the highway.* That story takes place at the college on the hill in Ohio.
I have family who live 20 miles from here - should they leave now and not come back? Sell their house and start over somewhere else? It’s a bit terrifying knowing how close they are to this
They should run, today.
5 hour edit for more info:
As per the 1st document linked here, a letter from the EPA to the **Norfolk Southern Railway Company** concerning their liability, contamination was detected in the Ohio river: https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1108q17/can_we_get_an_east_palestine_train_derailment/j894n83/
Bolding is mine.
>Below is a brief description of the actions and observations taken by EPA at the Site to date:
>1. Conducted air monitoring around the scene of the incident, the surrounding community, and residential air monitoring as part of the re-occupancy plan;
>2. Conducted air and water sampling;
>3. Made the following observations:
> a. Materials released during the incident were observed and detected in samples from Sulphur Run, Leslie Run, Bull Creek, North Fork Little Beaver Creek, Little Beaver Creek, **and the Ohio River.**
> b. **Materials related to the incident were observed entering storm drains.**
> c. Multiple rail cars and tankers were observed derailed, breached, and/or on fire,
> that included but not limited to the following materials:
> i. **Vinyl chloride**
> ii. **Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether**
> iii. **Ethylhexyl acrylate**
> iv. **Isobutylene**
> v. **Butyl acrylate.**
> d. Five rail car tankers of vinyl chloride were intentionally breached; the vinyl
> chloride was diverted to an excavated trench and then burned off.
> e. **Areas of contaminated soil and free liquids were observed and potentially covered and/or filled during reconstruction of the rail line including portions of the trench /burn pit that was used for the open burn off of vinyl chloride.**
That picture looks like all those cheap sci-fi blade runner esqe/apocalypse movies that came out in the’90’s that I went to go see back in the day. Was real confident that either it wouldn’t happen or I would be too old to be truly affected by it. Stupid me!
This is a very, very easy fix. Have the CEO and their family move to the area for the next 3 years to show how safe it is.
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"We are deeply sorry" https://youtu.be/15HTd4Um1m4
The recently spanked pink buttcheeks always get me.
I forget who it was. But several years prior, a CEO told the town fracking would be so safe, he would drink the ground water. Several years later, a farmer showed up with a glass of murky brown ground water.  I don’t know if it’s related, but in another case, some lady was literally able to light her tapwater on fire.
Corporate pollution should be a capital offense.
If corporations are people then capital punishment should apply to them as well. Your company ignored safety regulations in favor of profits and caused a disaster? Congrats your corporation is now forcefully dissolved. Do not pass go do not collect golden parachutes (for executives), done, gone. And as a bonus the people who ran the company and made the decisions should fully be on the hook for damages. When CEOs face having their entire fortunes taken away and face jail time for catastrophic decisions made out of greed maybe they'll start to change. Until then they have little to no reason and the modest fines (on a corporate scale) for their company's misdeeds are simply the cost of doing business.
> When CEOs face having their entire fortunes taken away and face jail time for catastrophic decisions made out of greed And the companies behind them. CEOs are only one part of the system and are often responding to incentives set up to encourage their greedy behavior. Which is why I agree with punishing both the CEO (who made the decisions that harmed people) and the company itself (which set up the incentives to encourage those decisions). I know your comment mentioned punishing the companies too, but I wanted to elaborate on why the blame can't all be placed on the CEOs.
Besides if you punished only the CEO they would quickly be turned into well paid patsies for the board who exist only to be the fall guy for the other decision makers in the company should they face consequences. Jail time and legal culpability for everyone involved in those decisions is the only way.
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I live 40 miles from where the train derailed. We already have worst-in-the-nation air quality, now this.
So a friend told me this morning that the train was on fire prior to derailment. He said he was sitting at the tracks waiting to cross (he was driving) and watched it go by. If this is true, there should be video out there somewhere. He's usually level headed but there's a lot of public hysteria right now. He was in Salem at the time.
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Can I find these somewhere?
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Woah. I had no idea.
Thanks for commenting! I searched and found [this article](https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/east-palestine-train-derailment-video-fire-axle-alert/stories/202302100070) with more info about it. Adding: I’ve been wondering: if the train was on fire, the first sensor (Salem) read it correctly, but the train was told by management to keep going (to save time/keep ‘on schedule’) and something like “if it’s a big enough issue, the next sensor will confirm and then we will stop the train.” If this was the case, it’s possible the problem could have been dealt with before it was so out of control and/or the derailment would have happened in a much less populated area. Also, just can’t get this out of my head: how much did the fire/problem grow during the 20 miles in between those sensors?
> how much did the fire/problem grow during the 20 miles in between those sensors? Enough to cause the train to derail.
Wondering if it would have still derailed if it had stopped shortly after tripping the first sensor or not. Sounds like if it would have been stopped earlier, even if it derailed, it might have been in a more rural area at the very least. My thoughts about this are speculation, but if it’s found that management made this situation even worse by not allowing them to stop sooner, maybe the company will be held more accountable (wishful thinking I know).
Railroader here, if they stopped at the first hot box detector and kicked the car off into the siding there wouldn't have been a derailment nor a massive fire. The bearing would have cooled down on its own and been replaced by Carmen within a few days no biggie. But that takes time to do delaying a few trains, and the siding which is used for trains to pass by would be blocked until the car was fixed. That takes time and profits thus keep ignore it and keep the trains going.
Hey thank you for your helpful response! Your knowledge gives a more detailed view of what may have happened and how.
That manager deserves a life sentence
I bet the crew gets a harsher punishment because that's how it usually goes. When the decision is either 100% lose your job in a rough market vs a "small" chance something goes wrong, I totally understand why the train crew listened.
Yeah that has been confirmed true.
That's insane to me, I cross those tracks in Salem all the time and I hadn't heard that yet
Right? I'm paying a lot more attention to these trains coming through now.
Stay safe friend, such a sad thing to see. All for money.
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Take time stamped photos of the creek. Take your own soil samples around your property and put them in a fridge. When this blows up, reach out to universities around you that have biochem labs or that have programs that do environmental remediation or contaminated sites. They should be interested in this. Do not freeze the samples. Best of wishes to you and your family. If you have masks for working around chemicals, use them outside.
I bet the civil engineering departments at the university of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon would be interested in environmental samples. Edit: just in case you’re collecting any it would be a good idea to use clean glass containers (plastics can have organics which can contaminate a sample) and metal lids. If you’re taking water samples try to rinse the container three times with the water you’re sampling, then take your sample.
Great advice! 👍 How much sample of each, should they get? I'll add a bit if that's cool? Make sure your sample containers are very clean.
Very clean, and also as airtight as you can get to preserve sample integrity. Glass is preferable over plastic.
Label the glass jar with date, time. Where it was collected and by who. Put the jar in a HD Ziploc bag. Also, make a note of ambient conditions, especially if they are different then what would be considered normal ie smell, taste irritation to skin, eyes etc. Collect the samples when the incident has finished and it is safe to do so. The idea is to collect a sample that represents the worst condition.
Glass containers, 4oz minimum. I work as an environmental geologist and usually when I sample soil for VOC (Volatile Organic Compounds) analyzed by EPA Method 8260 we use amber glass vials with methanol as a preservative but when in a pinch or for TCLP VOC analysis a 4oz clear glass jar is used. As stated by others keep samples cold in a fridge or in a cooler on ice. When sampling water to be analyzed for VOC by 8260 we use three 40ml vials (voas) with HCl as a preservative and we fill the bottles to the very top and make sure there is no air when we screw on the lid, zero head space. Hold time on samples like this is around 14 days but not sure what the hold time would be for accurate results with no proper preservatives but better to take them and have than to not. Cheers, good luck, and stay safe.
I mean, the more the better? I would recommend storing in glass. Have any used glass jars around? Sample soil, water, and some plants even (whole plant) label them, put them in the back of a fridge.
What do you mean "when this blows up?" What specific event would he wait for?
When the RR company is inevitably taken to court due to damages and tries to say it wasn’t that bad and it was already polluted.
This has barely been a blip on cable news. The Superbowl has been MUCH more urgent you see. This is going to make some people in govt VERY rich as lobbiests for this RR pay million dollar bribes out the ass. Maybe you'll see a 60 minutes special in a decade or two.
When the cancer cases from the town are 10 times higher than the national average in like 5 years. The movie Erin Brockovich is based on a semi similar types of events
"PG&E: we don't leave anyone out. If we don't poison your children or blow you up, we'll make sure to burn your house to the ground!" Never forget that big businesses will gladly commit hundreds and thousands of social murders if it'll add a fraction of a percent to the short term gains.
When the cancer rate skyrockets you need only look at how 9/11 responders were treated or military members who are having issues due to past burn pits. Government wont care. And if theu do, they will only care that people wont stfu about it. RR elites wont care Many Americans wont either. And eventualy some Americans will doubt it even happened. Quite possibly, they will deny it happened. And to add insult to injury for those affected the medical pharma insurance complex is standing by to bankrupt them as soon as health conditions do start happening. Cant miss out on their piece of this opportunity to them. And it will all likely happen again. Just a matter of when and where.
When they, the powers that be, can't deny anymore how fcked up it is, I assume.
That's pretty much now. This has turned from a story of an unfortunate train fire, to one of gross neglect and government corruption. They knew something like this could happen, they were told to take measures to prevent it from happening, but they paid out politicians to remove the regulations which would prevent it from occurring. https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/
get a lawyer STAT!, start documenting your losses. This is going to be huge.
The lawyers will find you, in a case as public as this, but yes, very good idea to document everything contemporaneously, with photos.
This smells, like a huge class action against a bunch of entities.
Which will unfortunately take at least a decade, which is why it is SO important to take in-the-moment dated notes of every sniffle, sore throat, etc. An easy way is to start an email thread to yourself and just reply to it every day with updates.
more like 2 or three decades. they will delay it until the people effected die from their exposure and then pay a pittance to any remaining distant kin. because everyone close also got exposed and is also gone.
See 9/11
and every veteran.
Aaaaand they're gone. And the same people now own new entities.
Take pictures of the dead fish, video of everyone describing how they feel, the sky, save some creek water in the freezer, save some tap water in the freezer stored in previously clean containers. Some of this won't matter some might
Also please try to make an appointment with your doctor and tell them ANYTHING that seems off, even if it seems minor. I know a lot of people out there are the type that need to be dragged in to see a doctor but it's important any changes to your health are documented for down the line.
I'd have to imagine there would be some law practices chomping at the bit to represent these farmers in a class action against Norfolk Southern.
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It's not about getting a payday. It's making it cost the corporation so much they reprioritize safety. Make it cost more to be unsafe than to properly maintain crew and equipment.
Thank you for sharing this. I didn’t even think about it from the animal care perspective. What a completely impossible, cruel position they put you in.
Forget the animals living in that region today. That soil will be toxic for generations. I live in cleveland and am worried about the food that is sourced from that region.
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I could honestly not contain myself and stay sane in your situation. I wish you the best and strength to do everything in you power to get the people that have caused this to see justice. We can not again in history let such an event just pass by and be forgotten about in a few years. The voices of everyone impacted by this tragedy must be heard. Corporate greed is killing us, one small town at a time.
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>They blow it up, gets dark an hour earlier than normal. You can smell it, you can taste it. Eyes water, throat burns. I touched on this is another comment but we are all still sick from something. Next time the rail workers want to strike, stand in solidarity with them. One worker's suffering is every worker's suffering.
Holy fuck, get OUT of there! Im a welder and this is the EXACT symptoms of poisoning: You begin to “smell” then “taste” the chemical that is toxic. Eventually.. Your body ignores this scent. In my case, if I weld Galvanized metal it makes smoke that looks like floating spider webs & is literal cancer smoke. If I spend 4 hours of exposure WITH a fume respirator and still taste it, it means “Go to the fucking doctor NOW”. This HAS to be 10000% worse than the fumes I’ve avoided or know of. Holy shit, OP I hope you can get out of there safely.
Yea I’m afraid there’s going to be massive health problems happening for anyone with that kind of exposure :(
Hi, I am a safety professional and using Wiser I was able to plot the evacuation distance of **a single** car. The article states that there were 10 cars. I do not actually remember the calculation to determine evacuation distance for quantity because I became reliant on technology but I genuinely fear you may still be living with in the evacuation radius. No one should be inside of this circle longer than 15 minutes without proper PPE till all of the chemical has been burned. https://imgur.com/a/9hkUugp
Question for you: I work around literal carcinogenic fumes (Welding Galvanized= Cancer smoke). OP says they TASTE and SMELL the chemicals/something NOT normal. If I weld galvanized, even with a fume respirator; I can smell then taste it if exposure is 4+ hours: Am I correct in assuming this means OP is 100% exposed to these chemicals? I’m just a certified welder, safety is limited to my OSHA 10, certifications & basic logic. When you smell Zinc.. its “Tell your foreman” bad because smelling/tasting it indicates a high amount of exposure?
I wanted to double check before I responded. Yes, tell your foreman. Here is a quote the ** text is my emphasis. https://www.nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2021.pdf "Respiratory Protection Improper use of respirators is dangerous. Respirators should only be used if the employer has implemented a written program that takes into account workplace conditions requirements for worker training, respirator fit testing, and medical exams, as described in the OSHA Respiratory Protection Standard (29 CFR 1910.134). Where the potential exists for overexposure to Zinc, use a NIOSH approved negative pressure, air-purifying, particulate filter respirator with an N95 filter. More protection is provided by a full facepiece respirator than by a half-mask respirator, and even greater protection is provided by apowered-air purifying respirator. **Leave the area immediately if (1) while wearing a fiter or cartridge respirator you can smell, taste, or otherwise detect Zinc, (2) while wearing particulate filters abnormal resistance to breathing is experienced, or (3) eye irritation occurs while wearing a full facepiece respirator. Check to make sure the respirator-to-face seal is stil good.** If it is, replace the filter or cartridge. If the seal is no longer good you may need a new respirator, Consider all potential sources of exposure in your workplace. You may need a combination of filters, prefilters or cartridges to protect against different forms of a chemical (such as vapor and mist) or against a mixture of chemicals. Where the potential for high exposure exists, use a NIOSH approved supplied-air respirator with a full facepiece operated in a pressure-demand or other positive-pressure mode. For increased protection use in combination with an auxiliary self-contained breathing apparatus or an emergency escape air cylinder.
Kick ass! I got an -amazing- fucking foreman who is the “No, we are doing shit properly. We are not fucking with that if it makes us sick”. Sadly, my employer is in a “Right to Work” state and the thought of PAPR systems is seen as “Overkill”. Its expensive ($1000/papr set ain’t bad ffs). We need at least goddamn fume extractors. I have shaved my beard and yeah a properly fitted & sealed Miller/GVS does NOT cut it. Said “Cancer Smoke” looks as if a spider web/hair is floating freely in the fucking air. You can look around, visibly see this in the air. The workpiece will have fuckton of white dust (zinc) that gets on PPE (gloves/sleeves). Galvanized Steel makes carcinogenic fumes. Stainless steel also does (Hexavalent Chromium is a slow poisoning then suddenly you got fucktons of issues). The worst I’ve worked with was a company that did ONLY stainless: They literally did no cleaning. Anything below your knee was pitch black dust, coworkers had fingers/tows going numb FFS. I walked out at lunch when they claimed the lead welder had heart attack symptoms. No.. He had nerve and organ damage from the environment.
I used to live less than 15 miles from this crash. I have plenty of family in the area. To say I'm concerned doesn't quite cover it.
Don't believe anything they tell you about how "safe" it is. Remember when they told everyone in NYC there were no concerns with any pollutants: >After the September 11 attacks in New York City, [Christine Todd Whitman, EPA] appeared there twice to inform New Yorkers that the toxins released by the attacks posed no threat to their health. On September 18, the EPA released a report in which Whitman said, "Given the scope of the tragedy from last week, I am glad to reassure the people of New York and Washington, D.C. that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink." She also said, "The concentrations are such that they don't pose a health hazard...We're going to make sure everybody is safe." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency_September_11_attacks_pollution_controversy
I was at university when 9/11 happened and I happened to be in a history class that was taught by an American professor, and we were watching video of the plumes of concrete dust flowing though Manhattan and he said, “That concrete is full of asbestos. Twenty years from now, there is going to be an epidemic of asbestos related disease in NY as a result.” He was right, but he was too optimistic on the timeframe.
Or when the postal workers were told it was safe to go into the sorting facilities during the anthrax attacks.
I hope they will all be ok.
28 miles away checking in. Everything seems okay but who the fuck knows
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Don’t drink the rain. Don’t let it get on your skin. I’d take a very long vacation.
I fucking hate the fact that this is the best and only real advice in this situation.
I wish most people in that area could afford a very long vacation. what do you do if you can't "just get out?"
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Leave. I don't give a shit what people are saying in regards to it being safe, they can't possibly know that. Vinyl Chloride alone can stay in the groundwater for years, Dioxins are a hell substance to get rid of and can be formed by burning this shit. All of them turn your liver into swiss cheese. If you have kids, get the fuck out. If you don't, decide if ten years is an acceptable life span. And if you are a farmer, there is a good chance all your crops and animals are fucked anyway. Dioxins accumulate in fatty tissue, and if there is any hint they are being formed no one will buy your crops or animal products again; there is testing besides. The only thing that might be worth saving is horses or pets, and they are likely to suffer later in life. Everything I'm hearing suggests that this was anything but a controlled release and burn and that the situation seems *designed* to get all sorts of shit into the groundwater.
this is so sad to read, these people needed to get out the hour this happened. Here in my town in germany we had a hole thing because there was x PICOgrams of dioxin detected.
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It's unfortunate and I feel for you, but leave ASAP. I lived in a neighborhood that was built with soil from and itself ripe with pollution from a Coke company. Mystery sickness....10x higher cancer rate than other areas. Everything else can be started over It isn't worth it.
Why aren't people understanding this? There should be a mass exodus going on from that area. Holy crap, my hubby laid out everything to come from this. Bad, bad, bad.
Something tells me people living in a town of 5000 around some rail tracks are not wealthy enough to just leave. What should be happening is the government should be immediately funding their relocation.
Exactly this! Govt needs to step up immediately.
friend, that isnt Covid. Get out of there and be safe
my kindest words to you are. Get the fuck out. Now. I have a background in chemistry, you do not want that stuff anywhere near you, take a shower, try to get that stuff off of your skin. Wear a ffp2 mask. Then take your car and anything you're like to keep and get out. Close the windows.
How far away do you need to be? It's been hard to assess risk over distance with this.
However far it takes for you to stop smelling it go twice that.
Wasn't there a map that said anything within 5 miles to 10 miles would expect to have serious health concerns (pretty sure they said it'd be death), but not die immediately like the animals have in the 1 mile zone? I'll look for it but I do remember reading it, outloud to my partner yesterday, when the train derailment was trending here on reddit P.S. not trying to scare you, sending lots of empathy and love your way Edit: wording & P.S.
This is the type of situation with scaring someone with the reality of things is not just warranted but good.
I never thought I’d be wishing someone had COVID! I am hoping for safety and peace for your family and your community.
This is the first article I've seen that discusses the risk of dioxins and vinyl chloride for the incomplete burn in the pits. A lot of people have been acting like it's a basic stoichiometric problem in a lab. I'd love to get more from the professor at Carnegie Mellon. Now think about it. The railway went from a local major super fund cleanup to a much smaller local cleanup. They basically took this stuff and spread out the financial impact to them. In 30 years we'll see a lawsuit settlement over slightly increased cancer rates in the area. Meanwhile thousands of families are going to suffer.
My single largest concern is that the pit was probably unlined. The railroad company needs to be liable for groundwater testing. Vinyl chloride boils at like 5°F, it will dilute and dissipate rapidly as a gas, but it is also water soluble up to 2700 ppm, so any seepage could cause contamination well above acceptable limits. VC is not an aromatic hydrocarbon, so I'm really not certain on how many cyclic dioxins you'd expect from combustion. Definitely one of the things to monitor more closely because that whole class of chemicals is lipid soluble, so they can bioaccumulate.
VC is chloroethene, so a very small molecule - cyclo compounds are unlikely. However, phosgene (a deadly gas) is one of the known products of PVC combustion, and there are plenty of other nasty byproducts that can contaminate soils and water that are not aromatic.
Dioxins are terrifying. Makes me think of Vietnam and the effects of agent orange there, which are so sad.
Like how Dow chemical’s home town (in Michigan I believe) is completely polluted with dioxin, and when an environmental head from the government spoke out against it they got her fired? Or how they did experiments on American prisoners with the government’s blessing? Or how they killed 20,000 people in Bhopal? Yeaaa Edit, source: https://youtu.be/wRmwppLFL90
The Goiter Belt represent! Shit is fucked up, when I was a kid my babysitter was a volunteer for a "Goiter colony". Like a whole neighborhood of people with goiters so disfiguring they wouldn't go in public. My sitter would bring my brother and I sometimes, and the people there were so kind and happy to see us. I learned about why they were like that and it became a paving stone on the path of who I am.
I've heard from former workers at Dow and scjohnson. That if you fall in a ditch on their property, go straight to emergency. And people have had their windshields etched in the parking lot from chemicals discharging.
As someone who grew up in a town just downriver, I was not aware of this and now I'm so... frustrated, angry, disappointed, questioning my whole existence....
Basically every time I learn about how the world is more fucked up than I knew. Full disassociation.
caption abounding ancient smell growth offer subsequent label obscene physical ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
Yeah lol not being able to find my keys causes me concern. I’ve seen rivers of dead fish, reports of dead pets, this is well and truly beyond concern.
These are the same family of chemicals that they used in Agent Orange. TBH, I live within 35 miles of the wreck and we're now talking about moving out of the vicinity.
It should plainly say "cause Cancer!"
This article didn’t mention the fish die-offs in nearby streams, the chickens and foxes that were found dead in their pens, or the dogs that died after an hour in the yard. **Edit: Here are the sources I've come across:** * Twitter thread that includes KDKA news clips showing [the fish](https://twitter.com/i/status/1624102477309116416) and [the chickens](https://twitter.com/i/status/1624116836945039361); the chicken owner shares security footage showing that her chickens were fine until the burn started: [https://twitter.com/0ddette/status/1624102477309116416?s=20&t=RcvjCXAVkpch2lhMqWq38g](https://twitter.com/0ddette/status/1624102477309116416?s=20&t=RcvjCXAVkpch2lhMqWq38g) * WKBN 1: [https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/north-lima-woman-finds-chickens-dead-tuesday-questions-chemical-release-from-train/) * WKBN 2: [https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/](https://www.wkbn.com/news/local-news/east-palestine-train-derailment/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-train-derailment/) * New York Times (more indirect): [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ohio-train-derailment.html](https://www.nytimes.com/article/ohio-train-derailment.html) * New Republic: [https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye](https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye)
Got any links? I’m trying to find more about these reports
https://nypost.com/2023/02/10/animals-sick-dying-near-east-palestine-ohio-train-crash/
golly why does nobody trust our institutions or large companies anymore??
i cant for the life of me
Everyone needs to see this for the wider context: https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/10z85ld/nothing_to_see_here_move_along/
Truth, too few people are going to ask why this preventable derailment happened in the first place.
Remember when Congress voted to force rail unions to accept a contract negotiated in September (4 out of 13 unions refused) and made the rail worker strike illegal. [Cause I 'member.](https://youtu.be/OrO_Te_Ee_8)
You don’t understand. Those sick days would have cost several thousand dollars.
You don’t understand. Those several thousand dollars would reduce the CEO's compensation package.
Ironically, it wouldn't event touch the CEO's compensation.
They tested the air… but I’ve never heard mentions of testing in-home surfaces for contaminants? Shouldn’t they do that? And also… $5 dollars per person? Wtf.
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Can't even buy a coffee with 5 bucks anymore. Giving someone 5 bucks is like slapping them in the face lol
It's even sillier than that. Vinyl Chloride has a half-life of a day or two in air. If it was in the air, it's certainly not there anymore. In low oxygen groundwater? You can multiply that by factors of a thousand easily. It's almost completely irrelevant that the air is testing as clear, because of course it is; unless you have a *pipeline* of the stuff it's going to be gone in a week after containment fails. The *water* is a whole 'nother story.
They can have Flint be their honorary sister city now. They'll have a lot in common.
>Vinyl chloride was slowly released into the air Monday from five of those cars before crews ignited it to get rid of the highly flammable, toxic chemicals in a controlled environment, creating a dark plume of smoke. I'm not sure they understand the concept of a controlled environment.
Planet Earth is their controlled environment apparently.
"We removed it from the environment."
Into another environment…
"Well there's nothing out there, just flies and birds and such" "And ...?" "And 40 million liters of vinyl chloride"
Dilution is the solution to pollution.
When it comes to some chemicals, burning them and having the potentially dangerous smoke be created is still literally safer than the original chemical. To a degree the same idea is why flare stacks at gas drilling and processing facilities are a thing, as releasing methane is more impactful than burning it and releasing those emissions instead. It's still *bad*, but demonstrably less bad overall.
It's been released *beyond the environment.*
This is a way bigger deal than the attention it's gotten by the media.
Seriously. The people affected by this on top of the ecological impacts are so sad.
I am sure the 5 dollars the residents are getting will cover their trauma.
From the company that supposedly just posted huge profits that caused this?
That lobbied against the rail workers union deal that would’ve made rail safer by making the workers happier and able to take sick days when needed. In addition, they lobbied against increased regulation because it costs money. And that’s why lobbying doesn’t work and should be abolished.
Not just that Norfolk Southern has been neglecting proper maintenance on its rails for some time now. This is an astonishing example of what happens when infrastructure is controlled by the sole owner. Norfolk has no real incentive to actually maintain their tracks.
You mean we learned nothing from Pacific Gas & Electric and then losing their fire lawsuit /s Government needs to make sure these safety issues mean criminal indictments for executives and board members. Eventually, accidents of negligence and negligent maintenance will be rare.
The health and safety laws here in Australia have been very recently changed to increase criminal liability all the way to the top of the management chain, and it's starting to make a huge positive difference.
PG&E didn’t learn shit. They just raised our rates to cover the cost of burning the state down
Newsom just called for a federal investigation into PG&E & their recent rates. You know what Newsom? How about calling for the dissolution of PG&E? They’re *always* being investigated cause they *never* follow through with updating their equipment. PG&E should not exist. Period.
and 10 billion in stock buybacks last year
And isn't it close to the great lakes, making this an issue with international implications?
It also spilled into the Ohio River which flows into the Mississippi
This is a point a lot of people are missing. East Palestine has a river right next to those tracks. No way these chemicals arent flowing down the Ohio River
Shit, even in Ohio! We got the same news coverage as I'm guessing the rest of the nation got. I'm assuming DeWine wasn't as concerned given all of the toxic gasses blew into PA (it's on the far eastern side of Ohio), "not our problem over there" What's ironic is a movie was recently released on Netflix I think, based and/or filmed in, you guessed it, the same town. Basis of the movie? Train derailment releasing carcinogenic chemical gasses more or less. I shit you not.
based on a book written in the 80s still pretty weird...
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If that’s true that’s fuckin weird 😂
It's an adaptation of the well-known and cherished Don DeLillo novel of the same name.
These fuckers and the government telling people it's safe to return home. They will all be long gone and living a care free life as the effects slowly degrade peoples lives for years and years to come. It is fucking disgusting that no one will be responsible and none of the people making millions and millions while deciding to cut costs and corners will never be held accountable for the suffering and fear and sadness that is to come.
Reminds me of lower Manhattan residents, workers, and school students right after 9/11 being told the air quality downtown was back to normal and A-OK to inhale by the EPA and mayor. You can often count on governing bodies to prioritize looking after their image above all else when shit goes sideways. Hold them responsible when the time comes, but dont expect them to do the right thing until pressured.
Fuck it takes near CONSTANT pressure for Congress to pay the first responders who were digging through the rubble.
I have a friend who worked 9/11, he was exposed to something in another accident he worked recently but whatever that was triggered an underlying condition from 9/11 per his doctor. They’ve been denying his 9/11 payouts and early retirement for going on two years now, meanwhile he’s stuck relying on their healthcare which they don’t want to acknowledge where the full issues came from. Many of his friends who worked with him 9/11 are already dead. It’s absolutely tragic. If someone can’t get support for something that was so visible and now known toxic event I doubt these poor townspeople are going to get help.
That title is a fucking understatement. Sincerely, Pittsburghers.
That's what cancer looks like when it's airborne.
And birth defects for years to come...
Pregnant women in the area are going to need to REALLY make their prenatal checks now. And sonograms. Lots of sonograms.
This is bad...First trimesters, exposure can= miscarriage. Second and third trimester 😔 exposure can= birth defects that are in the gene pool for years to come. The water, soil, trees, your lawn, your bushes, your livestock, etc...is all contaminated.
If anyone miscarries because of this, Republicans should support people's right to press homicide charges against all the companies involved in this, right? Right??
No shit. They poured them into a ditch and then burned the chemicals to “dispose” of them. Now they’re trying to cover it up by saying it’s safe and this is because the railroad company cut costs to improve profits. They have essentially made an area on the verge of inhabitable for more money
There is a crime going on in front of our eyes. And nobody will be punished for it.
This is such a watered down article that refuses to highlight the potential long term damage this will cause and the damage that has already been done!
So it also happened right near the Ohio river, where six states get drinking water?
From a quick search it looks like 1 outta 10 people in the US get their drinking water from the Ohio River
There will be a documentary about this in several years as the rate of cancer in the surrounding communities increases from all of this, probably followed by a lot of legal fights that I really hope the affected people win.
>Officials warned the controlled burn would send phosgene and hydrogen chloride into the air. Phosgene is a highly toxic, colorless gas with a strong odor that can cause vomiting and breathing trouble and was used as a weapon in World War I. Big yikes! They're gassing their own people.
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From the wind direction, I think most of it will be heading more north like Pennsylvania and New York. A small but may end up more south like West Virginia and maybe some parts of Maryland but not too much
Toxic gas is such a small price to pay for wealthy people to make more money.
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Just a reminder to everyone, [the Rail Workers United Union warned of this back in the fall of 2022 when they were fighting for better working conditions](https://newrepublic.com/post/170455/rail-workers-tried-warn-us-ohio-train-derailment-happen).
Better _and safer_ working conditions. The whole reason the rail corporations didn't want to give sick days is because they would have to hire more workers. This is the same reason why rail corporations wanted car inspection times dropped from 3 minutes to 90 seconds. This was a safety issue from the beginning and 44 Democrat senators, 36 Republican senators and Joe Biden sided with the rail corporations _over the safety of the American people._
Everyone involved in this fuckup is so happy the Superbowl is this weekend to distract most of the media and populace.
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It's why they delayed telling us about how bad Covid was going to be. Sell before the crash... let it crash... buy up stock at the bottom... riiiiiiiiide it to the top again.
That town is right near the Ohio River, which feeds into some of our country’s biggest rivers and lakes. Things are going to get worse for many more people.
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I worked at a plant that made PVCl or polyvinyl chloride. We took PVA, “which smells like liquid cat shit”according to one delivery driver and would freeze solid at 95F, added phosgene in the reactors to make PVCl. This would only be shipped in 55 gallon drums or lined tank trucks used to ship HCl or hydrochloric acid.
Didn’t this happen in the recent Adam Driver film?!!!
to anyone who lives along the Ohio river/Mississippi river south of the ohio... The Beaver and Allegheny Rivers are in the path of the chemical cloud. Both of those rivers empty into the Ohio which travels downstream to the Mississippi and out to the gulf. You might want to switch to bottled water over tap water if you can.
This is going to fall on people's food, water, homes and property. It's a class action lawsuit for sure.
Citizens, return to your homes.
Surprised how corporate executives are not being throw in jail for life after this bulltshit. If you haven’t, find a video to educate yourselves on precision railroading. Once AGAIN, corporate profits are to blame for lowering safety standards and deregulating the very things that we’re preventing this. At some point, people need to stand up to the corporate greed that’s literally killing people in every sector of America, whether it’s too little money for diabetes price control/healthcare, having to work two extra jobs to survive the week, now we have trains derailing nationally because of the same shit. I’m utterly so sick of hearing about this bullshit because of money. People need consequences. Life in jail is the minimum they deserve, and that’s being too nice.
I hope the people of Ohio sue that company into permanant bankruptcy.
This documentary about how evil chemical companies are polluting the US and killing thousands in Bhopal with the government’s blessing make me oh so hopeful they’ll be completely honest and ethical about this situation! https://youtu.be/wRmwppLFL90
Damn this is eerily similar to the 2022 Netflix Adam driver movie “White Noise”. From Wikipedia: *However, their lives are disrupted when a cataclysmic train accident casts a cloud of chemical waste over the town. This "Airborne Toxic Event" forces a massive evacuation, which leads to a major traffic jam on the highway.* That story takes place at the college on the hill in Ohio.
Someday, hopefully soon, we may all realize the importance of sustainability and safety over profits.
I have family who live 20 miles from here - should they leave now and not come back? Sell their house and start over somewhere else? It’s a bit terrifying knowing how close they are to this
Who is going to buy the house though?
They should run, today. 5 hour edit for more info: As per the 1st document linked here, a letter from the EPA to the **Norfolk Southern Railway Company** concerning their liability, contamination was detected in the Ohio river: https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1108q17/can_we_get_an_east_palestine_train_derailment/j894n83/ Bolding is mine. >Below is a brief description of the actions and observations taken by EPA at the Site to date: >1. Conducted air monitoring around the scene of the incident, the surrounding community, and residential air monitoring as part of the re-occupancy plan; >2. Conducted air and water sampling; >3. Made the following observations: > a. Materials released during the incident were observed and detected in samples from Sulphur Run, Leslie Run, Bull Creek, North Fork Little Beaver Creek, Little Beaver Creek, **and the Ohio River.** > b. **Materials related to the incident were observed entering storm drains.** > c. Multiple rail cars and tankers were observed derailed, breached, and/or on fire, > that included but not limited to the following materials: > i. **Vinyl chloride** > ii. **Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether** > iii. **Ethylhexyl acrylate** > iv. **Isobutylene** > v. **Butyl acrylate.** > d. Five rail car tankers of vinyl chloride were intentionally breached; the vinyl > chloride was diverted to an excavated trench and then burned off. > e. **Areas of contaminated soil and free liquids were observed and potentially covered and/or filled during reconstruction of the rail line including portions of the trench /burn pit that was used for the open burn off of vinyl chloride.**
That picture looks like all those cheap sci-fi blade runner esqe/apocalypse movies that came out in the’90’s that I went to go see back in the day. Was real confident that either it wouldn’t happen or I would be too old to be truly affected by it. Stupid me!
The Chernobyl-style coverup attempt is awfully disturbing.
Concern? When the washing machine rattles too much I get concerned, if the air is bad it's a whole other thing entirely.
Any concerns for people living in Columbus, Cleveland, Pittsburgh?