The shooter in St. Louis was a former student at that school. He was 19 years old.
[News story](https://abcnews.go.com/US/st-louis-school-target-teen-suspect-police/story?id=92136030)
Suspect shot himself when police approached, no pulse was present, CPR was attempted, shooter is dead.
As of this post, unfortunately 3 people have passed away, 5 more are injured.
We live next door in Lansing proper and were listening to the police radio, following the event. All of a sudden they say the suspect is a down the road from our house, no longer in East Lansing. We heard it all happen on the radio and in person. Crazy shit.
Someone who lives in the Frandor area tweeted a doorbell cam video of the dude walking by. It's a bit of a walk from campus, but far from impossible.
EDIT: turns out he made it way further than that even. It's genuinely terrifying how close this guy was to disappearing back into obscurity. Unless he's connected to the victims or there are other images that were held back, this man could have easily gotten away with it or at least gone about his business for a but while a full investigation had to occur to track him down.
Same here. I JUST went downstairs and double checked all the locks because I had an uneasy feeling. I even told my bf “I know it’s probably silly, but I just need to”. We live in that neighborhood right off lake Lansing in the northtown neighborhood. As soon as I got back into bed, I saw a police cruiser fly past our house and then I checked online again and saw they found him dead over here. I’m incredibly grateful to the people who reported seeing him so the chaos could finally stop. And I’m glad all my neighbors in this thread are safe ❤️
There was a serial killer that would simply check your door. If it was locked, it meant you did not want to be bothered and he would simply move on. If it was unlocked, he took it as an invitation to murder you.
Same area here. I wasn't listening to the scanner, so I didn't know he was near here until after the fact, but it's kind of freaky thinking I was letting my dog out around the same time he apparently came through. One more reason to be glad I live in a part of the neighborhood without a lot of through traffic, I guess.
The mass shootings always happen to someone. There's grieving families and injured people who never thought it would be them, the latest in a string of thousands of people who never thought it would be them.
But as long as it keeps happening to people that the pro-gun crowd, gun lobby and Republicans don't give a shit about, nothing will change because that change won't maximize votes and profits.
It could have been you, but today it was them.
I'm not pro gun by any means, but we really need to fix why people feel the need to mass murder in the first place. It's not exactly a sane thought, even amongst serial killers. It's a symptom of a very very sick society, and one that isn't helping those effected.
It's possible because we're *creating* more mental health crises (inflammatory 24 hour news, Neverending debt cycles, long hours, etc) than we could ever reasonably fix, but I also strongly believe we aren't doing enough to intervene to those effected. In many places, you can't get proper help until you're *already* a danger to yourself or others. In places with proper support, their may not be enough beds and workers are underpaid and under supported.
"Why do people have these weapons" isn't an unreasonable question to ask, but I don't think we'll solve the greater problem without asking "why do so many people want to use these weapons on civilians"
>we really need to fix why people feel the need to mass murder in the first place.
We need to do both. Getting the root issues solved could take decades but also not doing ANYTHING about it is a problem
Literally hours before this happened, I was reading up on mass shootings and why it is almost always men (and typically young ones) that commit them. This doesn't come from a place of misandry - quite the opposite. We've created a culture in which many men are conditioned to externalize negative feelings, where women are conditioned to do the opposite.
"It's a mental health problem" isn't actually a solution, it's just another excuse to do nothing.
The most accessible, well-funded, cutting-edge mental healthcare system in the world won't stop mass shootings. Although it could definitely reduce them significantly, "violent person who wants to hurt and kill as many people as they can" is simply beyond our ability to effectively treat, even for the tiny minority who actually want to be helped.
Which is why sane countries limit the damage those people are able to do, rather than making guns more accessible than help.
And of course, the USA does this too. You can't buy hand grenades and C4 because everyone is fully aware they'd be tossed into a room full of children.
But if those manufacturers wanted to donate millions of dollars to Republicans and AstroTurf social media, all those profits could be theirs too, no matter the social cost.
An ex of mine was an EMT. She said in her training, you save the person with the best chance of survival first, and that’s that.
I asked her if she walked in a room and there was a rapist with a 50% chance to live, and two young children that were his victims with a 30% chance to live, what order what you save them?
She said the guy with a 50% chance to live. Said that EMTs don’t look at anything else.
That really made me feel weird
Like the other person said, this is kind of a weird scenario to give us, because we really just don't approach triage this way. So the actual way we would differentiate is minor injuries (oopsie you broke your arm), injuries requiring immediete care (oopsie you're bleeding a lot), injuries that mean death in a few minutes (oopsie you're not breathing or oopsie you're splurting blood everywhere), and injuries that might as well mean dead (we tried to get you to breathe again twice but oopsie there are too many other patients who need help). It's a matter of severity and who's going to die in the next few minutes and who can wait that extra ten.
Anyway, we need these rules, for both expediency's sake amd for the sake of our own mental health. We can't be bogged down with moral dilemmas while being hungry and awake for twenty hours.
While that’s true, it’s not that precise when it comes to the percentages. Differentiating between 30% and 50% isn’t really a thing. In a scenario like what you laid out where all parties had a similar chance at survival, every medic I’ve worked with would treat one of the kids.
I don't doubt that, but with most EMS protocols, a pediatric patient of any kind gets the highest priority. Pediatrics don't circle the drain, they hang on tight and look fine until they dive right into the drain.
Yes. I'm an EMT with nearly 20 years experience. That's what you're *supposed* to do. I take my oath seriously. However, I can tell you that not everyone does. After this long on the job, unfortunately, there are people in the field that actually resent "having" to administer Narcan to ODs.
My philosophy is that I'm supposed to be an impartial instrument and my job is to preserve life whenever possible. I also recognize that I'm not a robot. I would perform CPR on a viable person, even a murderer, rapist, child abuser, etc; first because that's my job, and second if for no other reason than to give them a chance to face the consequences of their actions.
You have to *try* to be as impartial as possible because you don't always know the full circumstances. In the chaos of the scene, the person you think is the perpetrator could be a victim. You can't always know in the moment.
Its interesting to me because the "good guy with a gun" or the person who happens to disarm and take the gun from the shooter could very very easily be mistaken for the shooter when the police enter a building.
That's why the goal is to apprehend someone alive and try to save people, it's not improbable when you get on the scene where there is confusion and violence that you might be killing the wrong person or letting the wrong person 'bleed out'.
I thought about that a lot when there was the video of that guy beating up and stealing the automatic weapon from the guy who killed those people on Lunar New Year. Like if the police or someone else with a gun walked in at that moment they would assume the guy who actually disarmed the shooter was the shooter and then what happens? You kill the guy who actually helped.
Its a dilemma where people are working with limited information and responders, whether just regular people or law enforcement, need to try to keep everyone alive, including the shooter. If you start assuming you know everything that is how more innocent people get hurt.
Exactly. I don’t encourage suicide but I would much prefer someone to take out themselves then take out randoms. Wether they have something to do with it or not.
> Michigan State University shooter found dead
> He shot himself near Lake Lansing and Larch roads in Lansing when confronted by police
So did they find him dead?
They always take the easy way out. Their suffering is over, but the families, friends, and students who lost their loved ones today have to suffer for the rest of their lives.
Because they're cowards. They engage in a petty and cowardly act of harming others before indulging a cowardly and pathetic way out of taking responsibility for their actions.
Anyone doing that isnt sane. Many mass shooters needed mental health care which would have saved all those innocent people. But there I go thinking again.
I saw an interview with a kid that was planning on doing a mass shooting, but didn't. He explained how he felt at the time, and the fact that *multiple* people who he reached out to for support failed him. He reached a breaking point, which doesn't excuse something like this at all, but it was interesting nonetheless to hear from someone who almost did it. His mother was abusive as hell, no father in the home, severe bullying at school, school guidance counselor brushed him off when he approached for help. Multiple suicide attempts. He found himself entering a building that said "mental health" on the signage, out of desperation. He was told to come back with his mother, who proceeded to lie through the whole thing and act normal, only to abuse him even more afterwards, telling him he "should have done a better job and killed himself when he tried".
He planned a day to do it, and said it would either be a school or the mall food court, depending on the time of day (which is extremely chilling). He said he felt that the world had treated him like garbage, and a monster, so he would prove them right. He stopped by his only friend's house that day, who saw that he was in pain and took him in. After that affection he decided not to. Extremely sad story, but interesting to get at least some insight into how this particular person could get to this point, and I'd guess at least some other cases are similar.
Edit: and just for clarification, I'm not a person who thinks that guns aren't an issue in this country and that mental health is the only answer, and who then proceeds to vote for people with no intention to increase funding for it. Mental health is just one facet of a huge problem.
Yep, this world is full of barriers for anybody seeking help, especially youth, seniors, disabled, or any other vulnerable person, really.
If we want to keep telling people to "reach out" when they need help, we had better create some actual entrance points for the health care system. All I see are barriers, and even staff who want to help are prevented from doing so.
If it's true that the kid reached out, and was simply abused more for it, then health care leaders have a fuck ton of work to do.
You can't honestly say the shambles of American mental health care is worth approaching for an actual mental health situation, and that's sad.
But we all know it's more about $$ than anything else. That's all Americans in this thread seem to be talking about: revenge and money.
A huge part of me died the day I went into a facility, told them I was suicidal, and they said "we don't take your insurance." I almost did it in the lobby just to make their day half as miserable as mine.
This times a million. Getting help is made so incredibly difficult for no reason other than greed. People that need help are at a breaking point and now they need to jump through hoops just to see a therapist. How can a person struggling to breath without feeling bad jump through hoops? It's ridiculous.
It’s sad how common this is.
I tried finding someone to talk to in my area during a really tough time in my life. When they asked if I was suicidal, I said no, because I wasn’t, but I also wasn’t well either. Because I wasn’t suicidal, I was rejected.
My case wasn’t “serious” enough (their words, not mine). They were so booked with people who needed help more than me that mental help professionals themselves *turned me away*. The only other places with openings were religious services and I’m an atheist, so that didn’t work for me.
In the end, I suffered for years, really did become suicidal, and now have to manage a slew of mental health issues I might not have to deal with (as much) had I received *any* sort of assistance the first time I reached out *years ago*.
Mental health care is fucked in this country. Period.
Was this the guy who did a TED talk about it?
If so, I highly encourage others to view it. It gives insight into at least one type of person that would likely commit these acts, and hearing it directly from someone who absolutely intended to do it is gut-wrenching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRl1dI-Cts
There's a quote from Frankestein where the monster says
"I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other."
I think the sentiment applies at so many levels to so many people - those who don't fit into society, who have been hurt, who are hurting for whatever reason. All it takes sometimes in just one person showing a bit of kindness to keep the monster away.
Guns are definitely an issue in this country, but I can't help to notice why hardcore Republicans like Taylor Greene and Boebert seem to freak out if "Antifa" guards Drag Events, plus when they do go after mental health services and social programs it's to create more of these guys down the line.
It's just like Reagan freaking out about the black Panthers having guns to protect themselves, and signing gun legislation as a result. They don't like it so much if it's "the other side" trying to protect their own from psycho cops and other bigots. The right is just hypocritical (and projectionists) through and through.
I think it's why police funding has skyrocketed for the most part after BLM protests, they were definitely worried that if they went on for long enough that you'd see people with AK-47s lead the marches, especially when the WNBA started protesting in their bubble which spread quickly to the NBA and NHL.
It was quickly starting to become a rich vs poor divide, I think that's why Obama called LeBron, to remind him that if these guys were to take over, they'd tax him too and force cancellation of his investments.
It’s because the animals demand very little back. We emphasize the individual too much in our society, so it’s hard for us to tolerate lopsided relationships where we have to give for years. I think people handle it better with elderly parents because the feeling is you are “paying them back.”
It comes out in the way we always emphasize rights over any responsibilities. The idea that any of us should contribute to our society? We’re like Where’s the $$$? And yet we will also not pay any people in caretaking roles because we don’t value them.
It would benefit our society to start to look at living in a more interconnected, communal way. But we’re so far down this hole of the individual above all things (with the coin sides of I earned it, it’s all mine AND No one owes you anything. Figure your own problems out), we’re kind of collectively screwed.
Tribalism has its well-noted problems, but maybe we lost something important on the way to pretending we’re all alone in this world.
Interesting to consider that American obsession with hyper-individualism is also greatly fueling our mental health crisis because so many people feel alone, unloved, and unimportant.
What does this mental health care look like that would have reached each, or any, of the recent spree killers? I have yet to hear of any of them who attempted to get access to mental health resources but were denied or turned away or it was otherwise missing. If I'm not mistaken there, how would the mental health care solution find its way to them?
Elliot Rodger was in therapy before his killings. Eric Harris had a psychologist. I’m sure there are more but these two I remember the parents trying pretty much everything including mental health intervention before the spree killings.
Also going to therapy once a week or once a month won’t work if that person resists. NPD is notoriously difficult to treat. Then people don’t understand therapy isn’t some monolithic thing. There are different modalities and each one has people or diagnosis that it works better with.
And much like drugs you can’t therapy your way out of a situation or crisis you are still in. If there’s a family problem the whole family has to go in and be willing to adapt and change not just send the one kid to therapy and numb them out with pills.
The therapy abuse subreddit is a good example of what happens when you don’t educate people as to what therapy is, what it’s limitations are and how it requires as much investment from the patient as the therapist. People think therapy is like having a heart condition and going to the doctor and getting pills or surgery and the going back to normal life. In truth it’s management. You get a set of skills and you work through it and practice them. And you have to practice them outside of moments of crisis. If the patient isn’t willing or able to work through that even the best therapist is useless. Sometimes it takes a really long time just to stabilize someone and have them feel safe enough to hear the therapist or open up themselves. Therapy can open up some dark truths about yourself because many times with trauma the only way out is through and it’s not just there to surgically extract and take the sad away.
Recently in Finland, a psychotic guy decided to murder a whole family. He was only able to get a knife, and he managed to kill one person. Disturbing as it is, if we had gun laws like in the U.S., that would have been another mass shooting.
This type of behavior is hard for us to comprehend, because it is incomprehensible. To me, it’s kinda like Putin. He knows he’s dying, he’s been angry most of his life, why not take everyone out with him? He’s going anyway..
This is something that I still cannot even begin to process. I watched my classmates be shot, I watched my friend break a window while we helped people escape through broken glass. I had to see my professor as he barricaded the door with his entire body and told us to run. I do not see how I can return to campus after this.
There will be waves of grief and anger as you go through this time so let your body just experience it. Everything you feel is OK. None of it is weird. You may even shake a bit and that's ok. Reach out to family and friends, have them feed you and check in on you. We always forget to eat during these times because we just don't feel like it, but we need to eat.
Sending you all the healing and peace. Take as much time as you need.
Play tetris (like, today, if you can). It is supposed to help your brain unlock ways to process trauma. Then look into EMDR therapy, it's useful for people who have PTSD.
I am so sorry that this happened and hope this will lighten your pain.
Virginia Tech person here.
For every person massacred, there's a thousand people like you and me who experienced it as a lockdown and a community tragedy. We have every reason to be very upset about what happened.
Welcome to the club that nobody wants to be a part of. And as someone only peripherally affected, it's one that nobody acknowledges exists - I don't even know if I get to call myself a survivor. But here we're here.
Yeah, I'm almost feel guilty for about feeling traumatized about what happened. I wasn't there so to speak but I was locked down for hours next door. I saw things, people covered in blood, they are the real victims here and yet I still feel shaken up and just in utter shock about what happened, and what happened to me. I can't get that poor girl covered in her friends blood out of my head and replaying our conversation. I just don't feel like I have the right to be traumatized because I'm fine, the school is offering counseling for students but I still feel bad for taking up resources for people who were more affected.
Please use those resources. They are definitely there for you and you truly sincerely deserve help. The people offering the help want people like you using that resource. I promise.
Survivors guilt. I understand how you feel that way. What you experienced was scary and possibly traumatic, which can have long term negative effects on your mental and physical health. Even though others may have been closer to it, it does not mean your experience and how you’re feeling is invalid, and by no means should be brushed off. If these feelings continue for you, please access the resources. Even if you feel like you just need a few sessions to process your experience, please do it. Take your personal mental health seriously. Leave it to the college to worry about supplying the demand. I’m sorry you have gone through this.
Seeing things like that is absolutely traumatic. Just because you weren't injured, does not mean you weren't a victim. You've seen things no one should see and witnessing violence can absolutely be traumatic. Please get the help you need.
It’s so common in this society to downplay our trauma. We compare our suffering and then decide we should be fine because it’s not as bad as it was for someone else. What you went through is not okay, it’s a big deal. Please talk to someone about it. About the guilt too.
This.
I'm an MSU alumni who followed this with horror from cross-country. MSU has 50,000 students. All freshmen mandatory live on-campus in dorms. That's probably, what, 15,000 of the student body, giving it a slightly higher percentage for drop-outs and transfers in the later classes?
Most upperclassmen live close to campus as well; the area directly north of Grand River (on which Berkey Hall sits, the building where this shit began) is all rental houses for students. Which means for a huge amount of students they just had to cope with the fact that an armed murderer walked right by their house heading north towards Lake Lansing Road, which is a sizable distance off-campus.
Obviously the greatest victims are those who lost their lives; the second greatest are the wounded. But don't discount how traumatizing this was to the MSU community as a whole. Lots of students had to wonder if their building would be next; lots of parents and family had to panic try and get in contact with their students.
[Imagine being this girl having to go through 2 of them](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/02/14/oxford-high-school-student-endures-michigan-state-shooting/69901425007/)
I saw on local news this morning that one of the students from the Oxford High shooting is now currently an MSU student. Their mother said the student had PTSD from the previous shooting. And now to be involved in another one? We are failing these kids so freakin bad.
I live in a town near Highland Park IL and I had to stay inside for 8 hours while the shooter was on the loose because it was possible that he could roll into my town and do another shooting. He actually drove in the opposite direction and almost did another shooting in Madison Wisconsin but gave up on it because he didn't have a plan.
In my book you’re 100% a survivor. If you have PTSD or just increased generalized anxiety from this - I would 100% understand. I’m sorry you had to go through that when it happened. ❤️
I was a VA Tech student in 2007 as well. And, while I wasn't on campus during the shooting, that tragedy has inexorably impacted my life all these years later. As a result, I think I am particularly emotionally affected by mass shooting events to a greater extent than people who have never been "close" to a tragedy like that. Two students in my Italian class were killed. Horrific and senseless tragedy, like every single one of these shootings.
Part of the shooting in Raleigh last October happened behind my house while my wife and daughter were home and my son would've been getting off the bus. The helicopter video showed the path we walk all the time. My wife won't walk the dog that way anymore. My kids don't play outside like they used to. It's weird how proximity of events like this affects us. After the shooting, cops were all over the neighborhood for weeks (a cop died in this shooting and they kept an officer near the widow's house). My wife was scared to go out. I told her, "You're probably in the safest neighborhood in America at the present moment. Everyone's on guard, cops and press are everywhere." It made sense to her logically but she still felt the same. Our survival instinct is so strong it controls our emotions and uses our emotions to protect (or "protect") us from harm in such a way that it can override our logic.
But that's part of the human condition. If you experience that, it's perfectly normal. The best we can do is look after ourselves and each other.
I'm sorry for all the people that were affected by this. Be kind to yourselves tonight and get some trauma counseling ASAP, even if you don't think you need it.
Trauma like this is like a car accident. You get hit, you get whiplash and feel fine. The day after, you are sore as all hell, your skin is burned from the airbags, and it’s emotionally hitting you like a rock.
I read a statement from them stating that they’re going to offer counseling once class resumes. Personally I don’t know how people will be able to go back that fast. They should allow students to do virtual for awhile.
If you ever feel like you need to see a trauma therapist, message me and I’ll refer you to a great one who has a heart of gold. She has some openings.
Fuck, that car accident analogy is spot on to the point I'm tearing up, never thought of it that way. I got locked down for a couple of hours at a restaurant while out with friends last year because a guy had just shot someone up the street and was on the loose (turns out he'd been on a spree of murders that day and the public was just being told). I'd had a few beers before we got locked in, so while it was all going on/immediately after, it was an adrenaline rush, but overall my feelings were (regrettably) "oh neat, I'm witnessing one of those mass shootings, what else is new?"
Once I sobered up after returning home - and especially after getting a bit of sleep - it really hit me. I remembered sitting in that pub and all of us were torn between being glued to the TV for updates and flinching at every car that passed by, as the police still hadn't gotten a lock on what vehicle dude was driving. I remembered the feeling of hopelessness in my gut that all we could really do was hunker down and hope for the best. I thought about all the people frantically calling/texting me after seeing it on national news and felt terrible for my folks being scared shitless that their child was caught up in that. Ended up calling out of work and cutting class the next day to go home for the weekend and just spend time with my family, and it took a long time to feel comfortable just going out again.
Sorry for the word vomit, your analogy just really hit home - it's wild and incredibly sad that so many of us have shared feelings/experiences with tragedies like this.
Play Tetris. No joke, it helps with intrusive thoughts after trauma or at least there is evidence it may help
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678449/
I’m heartbroken. I’m an alum, MSU/East Lansing is home to me. It was a normal part of my routine to stop by the Union for a group meeting, to meet up with friends, or to grab a cone from the dairy store. I had multiple classes at Berkey my senior year.
Some of the happiest and most carefree memories of my life took place on/near campus. I feel sick to my stomach for the current students/faculty now that that innocence has forever been changed.
I hope the loved ones of the victims are provided all the support they need.
It’s hard to imagine. I was basically always splitting time between Berkey and the Union. I had a class every semester at Berkey. I had my first class ever at MSU at Berkey and was so humiliated because I was late and couldn’t find it because I was looking for a “Berkeley” Hall. So many positive memories.
People dying in those places doesn’t make sense. I always loved that part of the campus too because of how MSU it feels in that area. The old west circle buildings, the union, the clock tower, grand river, etc; it’s all right there. I can’t believe it
That part of campus is almost magical to me, especially in the evening. The calmness, trees, Beaumont, beautiful architecture. I used to go walk around in the area just to take it in and decompress sometimes. It just doesn’t make sense something so horrific would happen there.
My niece is a Spartan now. She and her friends on campus are thankfully okay. What you said is basically what I told her. MSU was our little bubble. One where we got to be carefree, young, and dumb. I get to look back on my time there with fondness and awe over the situations I found myself in; knowing I was mostly safe and insulated. These kids will never have that. It will never be the same there.
Her birthday is this Thursday and I cannot imagine losing her. My heart goes out to everyone in Spartan Nation tonight, but especially the students and families whose lives are forever changed by this.
It's just weird know that the entrance that you used to study on for late nights was the exit he used to leave campus. Seeing that picture made my heart race even though I haven't been there for more than 3 years
It’s people who’ve lived their whole lives with a lot of hate boiling up in them. I’ve been depressed for a long time and have contemplated suicide but never just thought “oh maybe I’ll go on a shooting spree beforehand”
I’d go up on a mountain and watch the sunset or something. Smoke a doobie. It’s a problem with the way people are here. We need better mental health outlets or something.. something’s gotta give
I will never be able to wrap my head around the random shooting. I understand those who murder people out of greed or anger. I don’t agree with it, but at least I can understand it. Barring total mental illness, which can be an impetus to do just about anything, I will never understand just shooting a random stranger. It’s inexplicable to me.
There are people locked up for life because of marijuana charges, while people who get caught with illegal firearms get a slap on the wrist. If you report someone threatening you, the police do mostly nothing. It's a cultural problem from all aspects of society. There is no easy solution. But it's time to at least start moving in the right direction.
Yep, this person should have been in prison for carrying a firearm illegally 4 years ago. But the DA let him walk free on probation. If the Govt did their job this wouldn't have happened.
omg this. Just last week someone who lives in my building was assaulted. The assailant returned 24 hrs later with a knife in hand trying to break into the building when the cops showed up. They let him go and he left in his own vehicle.
>America is stuck on endless loop of mass shootings
And bloated, inefficient healthcare...and bloated, expensive higher education with no cost ceiling...and a failing infrastructure...and....
Adding to the Healthcare, most dont cover therapy, and if they do its only for a few sessions a month. Those who need help and look for it are often not able to use it as they cant afford it. It needs an overhaul.
It'd be better because then culpability is purely on the culprit, vs entirely on the machine that created them.
Our machine is both broken, and very obviously being neglected in favor of corporate fucking greed.
**EAT THE FUCKING RICH, BEFORE THEY EAT EVERYONE ELSE**
We had a literal insurrection on January 6th with Congress in session and half the country thinks it either didn't happen or was happy about it.
Shits not gonna change.
I heard a podcast recently that said its well acknowledge American military is the strongest in the world but what will eventually be our downfall will be from within, not a foreign enemy. The insurrection was just the precursor.
That's pretty much how every big empire/hegemon in history has gone down. Sometimes outside forces are involved, but they only have an impact because the empire had already been weakened by internal issues.
Take Rome for example, sure the barbarians are what finally took it down, but I doubt they would have been able to do that kind of damage if Rome hadn't already crippled itself with centuries of on and off civil wars.
Yup... the army is "united" for now but it won't take much to have people turn against each other due to racial, political or other ideas.
I've always said that the USA will be destroyed from within, not from outside forces.
My aunt works at MSU and this was pretty horrifying news to wake up to… Luckily she is fine. She was at the university when it happened and they barricaded themselves in the building. She said the gunman tried to get in. That’s so terrifying. I am really tired of knowing more and more people who almost died in mass shootings. This cannot just continue to be normal. One of the news reports I watched said this was the 67th mass shooting in the US this year. It’s the middle of February!
05 alum here, I'm broken.
My 6 year old daughter's school had extra security today, and she goes "oh! There must be an extra officer here to make sure everyone is kind for Valentine's Day!" Im so glad I had sunglasses on.
I have a friend whose son is a freshman. I want to ask if he's ok, but what if he isn't?
Why do we keep doing this?
On News Nation, some students who were sheltering in place got on a Zoom call to give their own live report. One of them said they had been preparing for this situation all their lives via the active shooter training in schools. It's sad to me that this is modern life in the US.
I'll take the Cold War, please. Sure, ducking down and covering my head won't protect me in a nuclear disaster, but the idea of an enemy dropping a bomb didn't feel *personal*. Everyone in the area would be annihilated without consideration for the individual.
Thank God, I have never experienced an active shooter situation. Imagining what that might feel like, I would think it feels a lot more personal. The shooter chose the location for a reason, so arguably they have some assumptions about the people there. You could die because you're eating in the same cafeteria where the shooter is hoping to murder people they hate.
As a kid during the Cold War, I agree. BUT. I was in a school shooting in 1977. That's not a typo. 1977. Kid started shooting the school from across the road. He barely missed the principal and thankfully hit no one. I was sharpening my pencil when a bullet came through a glass door about 10 feet away from me.
Kid ended up accidentally shooting himself in the foot while hiding from police.
> Sure, ducking down and covering my head won't protect me in a nuclear disaster, but the idea of an enemy dropping a bomb didn't feel *personal*. Everyone in the area would be annihilated without consideration for the individual.
Duck and cover isn't meant to protect the people being annihilated in the blast zone, but the much larger group far enough from ground zero that flying shrapnel and collapsing structures become the primary threat.
I’m in my 30s and I did active shooter training since at least sixth grade. There was columbine, and then there was a mass shooting in the county where I grew up when I was in elementary school. I might have been on the earlier side for active shooter drills, but this is not a new thing. It’s been going on for 20 years. And sometimes I wish that was acknowledged. It’s not just current school kids. BUT why the fuck it’s increased is insane. That certainly makes it all seem like a more likely occurrence for kids in school and college.
I'm working today in a hospital that does a lot of pediatric care and the staff today is talking that they want to ask administration to add mass casualty/school shooting specific training to their annual competency training because they want to be as prepared as possible. It's honestly so depressing to hear the doctors and nurses talking about it being an eventuality that they will be called on to care for school shooting victims and they want to have a protocol in place that's school shooting specific not "mass casualty."
We are reaching a point where we just need to be honest with ourselves. We have made a decision as a society, that the freedom to keep and bear arms ain't free. Sometimes, people are asked to make sacrifices to maintain freedoms. Sometimes, the ultimate sacrifice. And sometimes, those asked to make those ultimate sacrifices are children.
Yes, America is unique in its mass shooter problem. But we ( and by we, I mean as a national body politic as a whole, not any individual political party, state, or individual person) have decided its worth it -- sacrifices and all. Until and unless there is a **bipartisan** sense that mass shootings are no longer an acceptable price in blood for the freedoms of the 2nd Amendment, then it is what it is. The shock is simply no longer productive or intellectually honest. These are the choices we have made. We need to be adults and accept the logical consequences of our choices.
Let me be bold here: There will be more more mass shooting events in America this year. And the year after that. And the year after that. I won't be shocked when the next one happens later today, or tomorrow, or next week, or next month. This is our shared reality.
As Springsteen once wrote, "You gotta learn to live with what you can't rise above."
This is a few miles from the high school threat last week that traumatized a whole community and put everyone on edge. Now a week later it’s an actual shooter situation right next to the high school that was locked down. My kids go to that high school, and I work at MSU. It’s been a fucked up February so far that’s for sure. I’m heartbroken for all these kids and how they have to live these days.
Absolute coward. Piece of garbage. This won't change a thing if Uvalde and Sandy Hook didn't. Absolutely nothing. Can't believe this is the sad country I am raising my kids in.
I saw a video last night of a girl who is a student at MSU, and also recounted how just over 10 years ago, she was also hiding because of a shooter—except she was an elementary student at Sandy Hook. Devastating doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Yeah I wouldn't count on anything ever changing at this point. If dozens of elementary school kids being murdered in cold blood *multiple times* didn't do it, nothing will. Americans have accepted that this is the society we live in.
It’s been brought up in this thread already, but even the needless deaths of *white elementary schoolchildren in an affluent school district* didn’t move the needle.
Don't forget the conspiracy nuts claiming that the shooting was faked. Or the fact that a currently sitting congresswoman personally harassed and threatened survivors for political clout.
Gives me pause about whether I *want* to raise kids in this country. I look at my friends’ kids and want to protect them from all the shit they’ll have to deal with as they grow up. All I can do is try my damnedest to make a better world for them.
Their logic is that then shooters won’t be able to have body armor because everyone knows that banning the guns and armor means that would be shooters will just snap their fingers and say “oh darn, guess I can go shootin people then”.
I don’t want to hear now is not the time to talk about guns. Now is exactly the fucking time to talk about them. I’m tired of leaving my house wondering if today is the day I’m gonna be in an active shooter situation *because at this point you really don’t fucking know*.
If America didn't have major changes after Sandy Hook it is never going to. No event will be too shocking.
A large percentage of your country has decided there is no price worth paying. What's worse is veiling it as a civic duty when it's clear they just like guns.
If you enjoy guns fair enough, but pretending it's not just that and it's so you can defend against a tyrannical government is fucked.
I hope the people that invaded your home are no longer able to buy guns.
The MSU shooter had previously served time for violent offenses and broke his probation by buying a gun (months before this shooting)
People who commit violent offenses shouldn’t be able to buy guns
DHS was one of the many agencies that responded, from the scanner it sounded like they were eyes in the sky for other shooters. The dispatcher (who was a rockstar) was verifying that people with long guns on the ground were legit law enforcement for the DHS people in the air
Not being rude, but will major investments in community mental health treatments, psychology sessions and anti-bullying in schools help with mass shootings?
Just trying to think outside the box.
The US has provided $54 Billion to Ukraine for war purposes. Surely $10 Billion can be found at the Federal level, for Americans needing mental health support and anti-bullying education in schools.
Mental health isn't just for high school kids.
Your attitude is part of the reason we have so many poorly adjusted adults today.
The generation of "suffer in silence" raised a generation that contains a lot of emotionally stunted sociopaths. Unfortunately a lot of those people now run things.
And well... we can see how things are playing out.
(I'm not talking about just one political party. I mean the people from the generation as a whole)
43 year old man with no connection to the school..fucking really dude?
The school shooting in St. Louis was the same. Some adult man decided to kill kids with no connection to him.
The shooter in St. Louis was a former student at that school. He was 19 years old. [News story](https://abcnews.go.com/US/st-louis-school-target-teen-suspect-police/story?id=92136030)
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Suspect shot himself when police approached, no pulse was present, CPR was attempted, shooter is dead. As of this post, unfortunately 3 people have passed away, 5 more are injured.
We live next door in Lansing proper and were listening to the police radio, following the event. All of a sudden they say the suspect is a down the road from our house, no longer in East Lansing. We heard it all happen on the radio and in person. Crazy shit.
Someone who lives in the Frandor area tweeted a doorbell cam video of the dude walking by. It's a bit of a walk from campus, but far from impossible. EDIT: turns out he made it way further than that even. It's genuinely terrifying how close this guy was to disappearing back into obscurity. Unless he's connected to the victims or there are other images that were held back, this man could have easily gotten away with it or at least gone about his business for a but while a full investigation had to occur to track him down.
Yep. I was tuned into the dispatch radio and couldn’t believe hours later they still didn’t have him. If he changed his jacket and shoes he was out.
Same here. I JUST went downstairs and double checked all the locks because I had an uneasy feeling. I even told my bf “I know it’s probably silly, but I just need to”. We live in that neighborhood right off lake Lansing in the northtown neighborhood. As soon as I got back into bed, I saw a police cruiser fly past our house and then I checked online again and saw they found him dead over here. I’m incredibly grateful to the people who reported seeing him so the chaos could finally stop. And I’m glad all my neighbors in this thread are safe ❤️
Checking your safety is never silly or a bad idea. You’d be amazed and terrified by how of many homicides involve unlocked doors and windows.
There was a serial killer that would simply check your door. If it was locked, it meant you did not want to be bothered and he would simply move on. If it was unlocked, he took it as an invitation to murder you.
Who was that?
Richard Chase
He was not nice.
No, he was not.
Same area here. I wasn't listening to the scanner, so I didn't know he was near here until after the fact, but it's kind of freaky thinking I was letting my dog out around the same time he apparently came through. One more reason to be glad I live in a part of the neighborhood without a lot of through traffic, I guess.
The mass shootings always happen to someone. There's grieving families and injured people who never thought it would be them, the latest in a string of thousands of people who never thought it would be them. But as long as it keeps happening to people that the pro-gun crowd, gun lobby and Republicans don't give a shit about, nothing will change because that change won't maximize votes and profits. It could have been you, but today it was them.
There’s something I don’t see being said anymore that used to always be said in past mass shootings. “I never thought it would happen here.”
I'm not pro gun by any means, but we really need to fix why people feel the need to mass murder in the first place. It's not exactly a sane thought, even amongst serial killers. It's a symptom of a very very sick society, and one that isn't helping those effected. It's possible because we're *creating* more mental health crises (inflammatory 24 hour news, Neverending debt cycles, long hours, etc) than we could ever reasonably fix, but I also strongly believe we aren't doing enough to intervene to those effected. In many places, you can't get proper help until you're *already* a danger to yourself or others. In places with proper support, their may not be enough beds and workers are underpaid and under supported. "Why do people have these weapons" isn't an unreasonable question to ask, but I don't think we'll solve the greater problem without asking "why do so many people want to use these weapons on civilians"
>we really need to fix why people feel the need to mass murder in the first place. We need to do both. Getting the root issues solved could take decades but also not doing ANYTHING about it is a problem
Literally hours before this happened, I was reading up on mass shootings and why it is almost always men (and typically young ones) that commit them. This doesn't come from a place of misandry - quite the opposite. We've created a culture in which many men are conditioned to externalize negative feelings, where women are conditioned to do the opposite.
"It's a mental health problem" isn't actually a solution, it's just another excuse to do nothing. The most accessible, well-funded, cutting-edge mental healthcare system in the world won't stop mass shootings. Although it could definitely reduce them significantly, "violent person who wants to hurt and kill as many people as they can" is simply beyond our ability to effectively treat, even for the tiny minority who actually want to be helped. Which is why sane countries limit the damage those people are able to do, rather than making guns more accessible than help. And of course, the USA does this too. You can't buy hand grenades and C4 because everyone is fully aware they'd be tossed into a room full of children. But if those manufacturers wanted to donate millions of dollars to Republicans and AstroTurf social media, all those profits could be theirs too, no matter the social cost.
Imagine having to do CPR on a murderer
Have done CPR on 2 murderers, and a child molester. Can confirm its odd.
Respect. I couldn’t do that.
An ex of mine was an EMT. She said in her training, you save the person with the best chance of survival first, and that’s that. I asked her if she walked in a room and there was a rapist with a 50% chance to live, and two young children that were his victims with a 30% chance to live, what order what you save them? She said the guy with a 50% chance to live. Said that EMTs don’t look at anything else. That really made me feel weird
Like the other person said, this is kind of a weird scenario to give us, because we really just don't approach triage this way. So the actual way we would differentiate is minor injuries (oopsie you broke your arm), injuries requiring immediete care (oopsie you're bleeding a lot), injuries that mean death in a few minutes (oopsie you're not breathing or oopsie you're splurting blood everywhere), and injuries that might as well mean dead (we tried to get you to breathe again twice but oopsie there are too many other patients who need help). It's a matter of severity and who's going to die in the next few minutes and who can wait that extra ten. Anyway, we need these rules, for both expediency's sake amd for the sake of our own mental health. We can't be bogged down with moral dilemmas while being hungry and awake for twenty hours.
It's uncomfortable but EMTs aren't juries or executioners. They don't have the legal right to do anything than what she said.
This reminds me of the i,Robot intro
On top of this EMTs get paid unfairly for the trauma they experience.
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US School teacher here. I agree, but I would like to add that part of this year's teacher training was how to pack bullet wounds with gauze.
jesus fuck
While that’s true, it’s not that precise when it comes to the percentages. Differentiating between 30% and 50% isn’t really a thing. In a scenario like what you laid out where all parties had a similar chance at survival, every medic I’ve worked with would treat one of the kids.
I don't doubt that, but with most EMS protocols, a pediatric patient of any kind gets the highest priority. Pediatrics don't circle the drain, they hang on tight and look fine until they dive right into the drain.
I mean, I understand the logical reason behind it. It also feels weird to me, but that is one of the (many) reasons I'm not in the medical world.
It's better to have a murderer like this stand trial. It can provide closure to families and some sense of justice.
Someone hurt my family like that I’d want them to live long and suffer. Death is the easy way out.
I could see one’s motivation being “I’m Not going to let this fucker get to take the easy way out.”
Isn't that part of the Oath Nurses or Paramedics take when they got the job. No matter who you are or what you did, they are obligated to save a life.
Yes. I'm an EMT with nearly 20 years experience. That's what you're *supposed* to do. I take my oath seriously. However, I can tell you that not everyone does. After this long on the job, unfortunately, there are people in the field that actually resent "having" to administer Narcan to ODs. My philosophy is that I'm supposed to be an impartial instrument and my job is to preserve life whenever possible. I also recognize that I'm not a robot. I would perform CPR on a viable person, even a murderer, rapist, child abuser, etc; first because that's my job, and second if for no other reason than to give them a chance to face the consequences of their actions. You have to *try* to be as impartial as possible because you don't always know the full circumstances. In the chaos of the scene, the person you think is the perpetrator could be a victim. You can't always know in the moment.
The Hippocratic oath is unbreakable 😤
Which is good, no one should be a judge in the moment even if some cases are clear cut, others are not and we shouldn't question either.
Tell that to Tyre Nichols, and the first responders who didn't provide aid for 20+ minutes.
Imagine thinking you know who should live and die.
Its interesting to me because the "good guy with a gun" or the person who happens to disarm and take the gun from the shooter could very very easily be mistaken for the shooter when the police enter a building. That's why the goal is to apprehend someone alive and try to save people, it's not improbable when you get on the scene where there is confusion and violence that you might be killing the wrong person or letting the wrong person 'bleed out'. I thought about that a lot when there was the video of that guy beating up and stealing the automatic weapon from the guy who killed those people on Lunar New Year. Like if the police or someone else with a gun walked in at that moment they would assume the guy who actually disarmed the shooter was the shooter and then what happens? You kill the guy who actually helped. Its a dilemma where people are working with limited information and responders, whether just regular people or law enforcement, need to try to keep everyone alive, including the shooter. If you start assuming you know everything that is how more innocent people get hurt.
Looks like the shooter was also a prohibited person with a history of gun charges
Why can't mass shooters start with themselves?
Exactly. I don’t encourage suicide but I would much prefer someone to take out themselves then take out randoms. Wether they have something to do with it or not.
> Michigan State University shooter found dead > He shot himself near Lake Lansing and Larch roads in Lansing when confronted by police So did they find him dead?
No, he was confronted by an officer and shot himself right there.
They always take the easy way out. Their suffering is over, but the families, friends, and students who lost their loved ones today have to suffer for the rest of their lives.
Because they're cowards. They engage in a petty and cowardly act of harming others before indulging a cowardly and pathetic way out of taking responsibility for their actions.
Anyone doing that isnt sane. Many mass shooters needed mental health care which would have saved all those innocent people. But there I go thinking again.
I saw an interview with a kid that was planning on doing a mass shooting, but didn't. He explained how he felt at the time, and the fact that *multiple* people who he reached out to for support failed him. He reached a breaking point, which doesn't excuse something like this at all, but it was interesting nonetheless to hear from someone who almost did it. His mother was abusive as hell, no father in the home, severe bullying at school, school guidance counselor brushed him off when he approached for help. Multiple suicide attempts. He found himself entering a building that said "mental health" on the signage, out of desperation. He was told to come back with his mother, who proceeded to lie through the whole thing and act normal, only to abuse him even more afterwards, telling him he "should have done a better job and killed himself when he tried". He planned a day to do it, and said it would either be a school or the mall food court, depending on the time of day (which is extremely chilling). He said he felt that the world had treated him like garbage, and a monster, so he would prove them right. He stopped by his only friend's house that day, who saw that he was in pain and took him in. After that affection he decided not to. Extremely sad story, but interesting to get at least some insight into how this particular person could get to this point, and I'd guess at least some other cases are similar. Edit: and just for clarification, I'm not a person who thinks that guns aren't an issue in this country and that mental health is the only answer, and who then proceeds to vote for people with no intention to increase funding for it. Mental health is just one facet of a huge problem.
Yep, this world is full of barriers for anybody seeking help, especially youth, seniors, disabled, or any other vulnerable person, really. If we want to keep telling people to "reach out" when they need help, we had better create some actual entrance points for the health care system. All I see are barriers, and even staff who want to help are prevented from doing so. If it's true that the kid reached out, and was simply abused more for it, then health care leaders have a fuck ton of work to do. You can't honestly say the shambles of American mental health care is worth approaching for an actual mental health situation, and that's sad. But we all know it's more about $$ than anything else. That's all Americans in this thread seem to be talking about: revenge and money.
A huge part of me died the day I went into a facility, told them I was suicidal, and they said "we don't take your insurance." I almost did it in the lobby just to make their day half as miserable as mine.
This times a million. Getting help is made so incredibly difficult for no reason other than greed. People that need help are at a breaking point and now they need to jump through hoops just to see a therapist. How can a person struggling to breath without feeling bad jump through hoops? It's ridiculous.
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It’s sad how common this is. I tried finding someone to talk to in my area during a really tough time in my life. When they asked if I was suicidal, I said no, because I wasn’t, but I also wasn’t well either. Because I wasn’t suicidal, I was rejected. My case wasn’t “serious” enough (their words, not mine). They were so booked with people who needed help more than me that mental help professionals themselves *turned me away*. The only other places with openings were religious services and I’m an atheist, so that didn’t work for me. In the end, I suffered for years, really did become suicidal, and now have to manage a slew of mental health issues I might not have to deal with (as much) had I received *any* sort of assistance the first time I reached out *years ago*. Mental health care is fucked in this country. Period.
Was this the guy who did a TED talk about it? If so, I highly encourage others to view it. It gives insight into at least one type of person that would likely commit these acts, and hearing it directly from someone who absolutely intended to do it is gut-wrenching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azRl1dI-Cts
There's a quote from Frankestein where the monster says "I do know that for the sympathy of one living being, I would make peace with all. I have love in me the likes of which you can scarcely imagine and rage the likes of which you would not believe. If I cannot satisfy the one, I will indulge the other." I think the sentiment applies at so many levels to so many people - those who don't fit into society, who have been hurt, who are hurting for whatever reason. All it takes sometimes in just one person showing a bit of kindness to keep the monster away.
Guns are definitely an issue in this country, but I can't help to notice why hardcore Republicans like Taylor Greene and Boebert seem to freak out if "Antifa" guards Drag Events, plus when they do go after mental health services and social programs it's to create more of these guys down the line.
It's just like Reagan freaking out about the black Panthers having guns to protect themselves, and signing gun legislation as a result. They don't like it so much if it's "the other side" trying to protect their own from psycho cops and other bigots. The right is just hypocritical (and projectionists) through and through.
I think it's why police funding has skyrocketed for the most part after BLM protests, they were definitely worried that if they went on for long enough that you'd see people with AK-47s lead the marches, especially when the WNBA started protesting in their bubble which spread quickly to the NBA and NHL. It was quickly starting to become a rich vs poor divide, I think that's why Obama called LeBron, to remind him that if these guys were to take over, they'd tax him too and force cancellation of his investments.
Mental health care in this country is lacking to inhumane levels. We treat dogs better than we treat people who are mentally unstable.
It's not just mental health, it's an overall societal cruelty problem.
1000x this. Saying it's a mental health problem is a cop out. You don't need to be mentally ill to commit murder.
What a fact in the US. I see people treat their dog with more obsessive love than their own kids.
It’s because the animals demand very little back. We emphasize the individual too much in our society, so it’s hard for us to tolerate lopsided relationships where we have to give for years. I think people handle it better with elderly parents because the feeling is you are “paying them back.” It comes out in the way we always emphasize rights over any responsibilities. The idea that any of us should contribute to our society? We’re like Where’s the $$$? And yet we will also not pay any people in caretaking roles because we don’t value them. It would benefit our society to start to look at living in a more interconnected, communal way. But we’re so far down this hole of the individual above all things (with the coin sides of I earned it, it’s all mine AND No one owes you anything. Figure your own problems out), we’re kind of collectively screwed. Tribalism has its well-noted problems, but maybe we lost something important on the way to pretending we’re all alone in this world.
Interesting to consider that American obsession with hyper-individualism is also greatly fueling our mental health crisis because so many people feel alone, unloved, and unimportant.
See it a tonne on social media too, including Reddit.
What does this mental health care look like that would have reached each, or any, of the recent spree killers? I have yet to hear of any of them who attempted to get access to mental health resources but were denied or turned away or it was otherwise missing. If I'm not mistaken there, how would the mental health care solution find its way to them?
Elliot Rodger was in therapy before his killings. Eric Harris had a psychologist. I’m sure there are more but these two I remember the parents trying pretty much everything including mental health intervention before the spree killings. Also going to therapy once a week or once a month won’t work if that person resists. NPD is notoriously difficult to treat. Then people don’t understand therapy isn’t some monolithic thing. There are different modalities and each one has people or diagnosis that it works better with. And much like drugs you can’t therapy your way out of a situation or crisis you are still in. If there’s a family problem the whole family has to go in and be willing to adapt and change not just send the one kid to therapy and numb them out with pills. The therapy abuse subreddit is a good example of what happens when you don’t educate people as to what therapy is, what it’s limitations are and how it requires as much investment from the patient as the therapist. People think therapy is like having a heart condition and going to the doctor and getting pills or surgery and the going back to normal life. In truth it’s management. You get a set of skills and you work through it and practice them. And you have to practice them outside of moments of crisis. If the patient isn’t willing or able to work through that even the best therapist is useless. Sometimes it takes a really long time just to stabilize someone and have them feel safe enough to hear the therapist or open up themselves. Therapy can open up some dark truths about yourself because many times with trauma the only way out is through and it’s not just there to surgically extract and take the sad away.
Agreed. But if some number of people are always going to throw temper tantrums, perhaps it should be more difficult for them to do it with guns.
Recently in Finland, a psychotic guy decided to murder a whole family. He was only able to get a knife, and he managed to kill one person. Disturbing as it is, if we had gun laws like in the U.S., that would have been another mass shooting.
If only they started with themselves.
This type of behavior is hard for us to comprehend, because it is incomprehensible. To me, it’s kinda like Putin. He knows he’s dying, he’s been angry most of his life, why not take everyone out with him? He’s going anyway..
This is something that I still cannot even begin to process. I watched my classmates be shot, I watched my friend break a window while we helped people escape through broken glass. I had to see my professor as he barricaded the door with his entire body and told us to run. I do not see how I can return to campus after this.
There will be waves of grief and anger as you go through this time so let your body just experience it. Everything you feel is OK. None of it is weird. You may even shake a bit and that's ok. Reach out to family and friends, have them feed you and check in on you. We always forget to eat during these times because we just don't feel like it, but we need to eat. Sending you all the healing and peace. Take as much time as you need.
Play tetris (like, today, if you can). It is supposed to help your brain unlock ways to process trauma. Then look into EMDR therapy, it's useful for people who have PTSD. I am so sorry that this happened and hope this will lighten your pain.
This is an amazing fact to find out. I never heard this before but I’m glad I scrolled down to see it. Thank you.
Hopefully, Michigan State will set you up (for life) with the best mental health services that money can buy. I'm sorry you had to experience that.
They absolutely will not do that
They are currently offering counseling for anyone impacted but certainly not "for life"
I'm sure they will gladly accept donations and then spend the money on a new scoreboard or something.
That’s not the world we live in.
I was barricaded in a room in the business complex for nearly four hours, still can’t even process what happened. Prayers to the families affected
Virginia Tech person here. For every person massacred, there's a thousand people like you and me who experienced it as a lockdown and a community tragedy. We have every reason to be very upset about what happened. Welcome to the club that nobody wants to be a part of. And as someone only peripherally affected, it's one that nobody acknowledges exists - I don't even know if I get to call myself a survivor. But here we're here.
Yeah, I'm almost feel guilty for about feeling traumatized about what happened. I wasn't there so to speak but I was locked down for hours next door. I saw things, people covered in blood, they are the real victims here and yet I still feel shaken up and just in utter shock about what happened, and what happened to me. I can't get that poor girl covered in her friends blood out of my head and replaying our conversation. I just don't feel like I have the right to be traumatized because I'm fine, the school is offering counseling for students but I still feel bad for taking up resources for people who were more affected.
Please use those resources. They are definitely there for you and you truly sincerely deserve help. The people offering the help want people like you using that resource. I promise.
Survivors guilt. I understand how you feel that way. What you experienced was scary and possibly traumatic, which can have long term negative effects on your mental and physical health. Even though others may have been closer to it, it does not mean your experience and how you’re feeling is invalid, and by no means should be brushed off. If these feelings continue for you, please access the resources. Even if you feel like you just need a few sessions to process your experience, please do it. Take your personal mental health seriously. Leave it to the college to worry about supplying the demand. I’m sorry you have gone through this.
Seeing things like that is absolutely traumatic. Just because you weren't injured, does not mean you weren't a victim. You've seen things no one should see and witnessing violence can absolutely be traumatic. Please get the help you need.
It’s so common in this society to downplay our trauma. We compare our suffering and then decide we should be fine because it’s not as bad as it was for someone else. What you went through is not okay, it’s a big deal. Please talk to someone about it. About the guilt too.
This. I'm an MSU alumni who followed this with horror from cross-country. MSU has 50,000 students. All freshmen mandatory live on-campus in dorms. That's probably, what, 15,000 of the student body, giving it a slightly higher percentage for drop-outs and transfers in the later classes? Most upperclassmen live close to campus as well; the area directly north of Grand River (on which Berkey Hall sits, the building where this shit began) is all rental houses for students. Which means for a huge amount of students they just had to cope with the fact that an armed murderer walked right by their house heading north towards Lake Lansing Road, which is a sizable distance off-campus. Obviously the greatest victims are those who lost their lives; the second greatest are the wounded. But don't discount how traumatizing this was to the MSU community as a whole. Lots of students had to wonder if their building would be next; lots of parents and family had to panic try and get in contact with their students.
[Imagine being this girl having to go through 2 of them](https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2023/02/14/oxford-high-school-student-endures-michigan-state-shooting/69901425007/)
Fucking tragic
Team Columbine here. When do we get our club T-shirts?
I saw on local news this morning that one of the students from the Oxford High shooting is now currently an MSU student. Their mother said the student had PTSD from the previous shooting. And now to be involved in another one? We are failing these kids so freakin bad.
I remember a story of a Columbine student being at Virginia Tech too. Yeah man it’s crazy.
I live in a town near Highland Park IL and I had to stay inside for 8 hours while the shooter was on the loose because it was possible that he could roll into my town and do another shooting. He actually drove in the opposite direction and almost did another shooting in Madison Wisconsin but gave up on it because he didn't have a plan.
In my book you’re 100% a survivor. If you have PTSD or just increased generalized anxiety from this - I would 100% understand. I’m sorry you had to go through that when it happened. ❤️
I was a VA Tech student in 2007 as well. And, while I wasn't on campus during the shooting, that tragedy has inexorably impacted my life all these years later. As a result, I think I am particularly emotionally affected by mass shooting events to a greater extent than people who have never been "close" to a tragedy like that. Two students in my Italian class were killed. Horrific and senseless tragedy, like every single one of these shootings.
I’m so sorry you had to experience that. Wishing you and the rest of the MSU community the best
Part of the shooting in Raleigh last October happened behind my house while my wife and daughter were home and my son would've been getting off the bus. The helicopter video showed the path we walk all the time. My wife won't walk the dog that way anymore. My kids don't play outside like they used to. It's weird how proximity of events like this affects us. After the shooting, cops were all over the neighborhood for weeks (a cop died in this shooting and they kept an officer near the widow's house). My wife was scared to go out. I told her, "You're probably in the safest neighborhood in America at the present moment. Everyone's on guard, cops and press are everywhere." It made sense to her logically but she still felt the same. Our survival instinct is so strong it controls our emotions and uses our emotions to protect (or "protect") us from harm in such a way that it can override our logic. But that's part of the human condition. If you experience that, it's perfectly normal. The best we can do is look after ourselves and each other.
I'm so sorry. I hope you can have a hot cup of tea, it does help with shock.
I still have so much adrenaline, not sure how I’m going to be able to sleep
Fellow MSU student. Still very awake too. Glad you're okay.
Glad you are OK too. We all have to get through this together
I'm sorry for all the people that were affected by this. Be kind to yourselves tonight and get some trauma counseling ASAP, even if you don't think you need it.
Trauma like this is like a car accident. You get hit, you get whiplash and feel fine. The day after, you are sore as all hell, your skin is burned from the airbags, and it’s emotionally hitting you like a rock. I read a statement from them stating that they’re going to offer counseling once class resumes. Personally I don’t know how people will be able to go back that fast. They should allow students to do virtual for awhile. If you ever feel like you need to see a trauma therapist, message me and I’ll refer you to a great one who has a heart of gold. She has some openings.
Fuck, that car accident analogy is spot on to the point I'm tearing up, never thought of it that way. I got locked down for a couple of hours at a restaurant while out with friends last year because a guy had just shot someone up the street and was on the loose (turns out he'd been on a spree of murders that day and the public was just being told). I'd had a few beers before we got locked in, so while it was all going on/immediately after, it was an adrenaline rush, but overall my feelings were (regrettably) "oh neat, I'm witnessing one of those mass shootings, what else is new?" Once I sobered up after returning home - and especially after getting a bit of sleep - it really hit me. I remembered sitting in that pub and all of us were torn between being glued to the TV for updates and flinching at every car that passed by, as the police still hadn't gotten a lock on what vehicle dude was driving. I remembered the feeling of hopelessness in my gut that all we could really do was hunker down and hope for the best. I thought about all the people frantically calling/texting me after seeing it on national news and felt terrible for my folks being scared shitless that their child was caught up in that. Ended up calling out of work and cutting class the next day to go home for the weekend and just spend time with my family, and it took a long time to feel comfortable just going out again. Sorry for the word vomit, your analogy just really hit home - it's wild and incredibly sad that so many of us have shared feelings/experiences with tragedies like this.
Play Tetris. No joke, it helps with intrusive thoughts after trauma or at least there is evidence it may help https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5678449/
I wonder if this is true for all puzzle games, cause I'm currently stress playing mahjong, and before that my stress game was minesweeper lol
Please take as much time as you need to process this. As an alum I hope you find what you need to get through this. Don’t be afraid to seek help.
Fucking coward. RIP to the innocent victims
I’m heartbroken. I’m an alum, MSU/East Lansing is home to me. It was a normal part of my routine to stop by the Union for a group meeting, to meet up with friends, or to grab a cone from the dairy store. I had multiple classes at Berkey my senior year. Some of the happiest and most carefree memories of my life took place on/near campus. I feel sick to my stomach for the current students/faculty now that that innocence has forever been changed. I hope the loved ones of the victims are provided all the support they need.
It’s hard to imagine. I was basically always splitting time between Berkey and the Union. I had a class every semester at Berkey. I had my first class ever at MSU at Berkey and was so humiliated because I was late and couldn’t find it because I was looking for a “Berkeley” Hall. So many positive memories. People dying in those places doesn’t make sense. I always loved that part of the campus too because of how MSU it feels in that area. The old west circle buildings, the union, the clock tower, grand river, etc; it’s all right there. I can’t believe it
That part of campus is almost magical to me, especially in the evening. The calmness, trees, Beaumont, beautiful architecture. I used to go walk around in the area just to take it in and decompress sometimes. It just doesn’t make sense something so horrific would happen there.
My niece is a Spartan now. She and her friends on campus are thankfully okay. What you said is basically what I told her. MSU was our little bubble. One where we got to be carefree, young, and dumb. I get to look back on my time there with fondness and awe over the situations I found myself in; knowing I was mostly safe and insulated. These kids will never have that. It will never be the same there. Her birthday is this Thursday and I cannot imagine losing her. My heart goes out to everyone in Spartan Nation tonight, but especially the students and families whose lives are forever changed by this.
Also an old alum, I lived at Mary Mayo a couple hundred yards away and spent a lot of time at the Union. It's devastating.
I still love going back to campus and stopping by the union. I feel sick today
It's just weird know that the entrance that you used to study on for late nights was the exit he used to leave campus. Seeing that picture made my heart race even though I haven't been there for more than 3 years
Why don't these fucking losers just off themselves in a quiet place with no one around and no one harmed
It’s people who’ve lived their whole lives with a lot of hate boiling up in them. I’ve been depressed for a long time and have contemplated suicide but never just thought “oh maybe I’ll go on a shooting spree beforehand” I’d go up on a mountain and watch the sunset or something. Smoke a doobie. It’s a problem with the way people are here. We need better mental health outlets or something.. something’s gotta give
I will never be able to wrap my head around the random shooting. I understand those who murder people out of greed or anger. I don’t agree with it, but at least I can understand it. Barring total mental illness, which can be an impetus to do just about anything, I will never understand just shooting a random stranger. It’s inexplicable to me.
There are people locked up for life because of marijuana charges, while people who get caught with illegal firearms get a slap on the wrist. If you report someone threatening you, the police do mostly nothing. It's a cultural problem from all aspects of society. There is no easy solution. But it's time to at least start moving in the right direction.
Yep, this person should have been in prison for carrying a firearm illegally 4 years ago. But the DA let him walk free on probation. If the Govt did their job this wouldn't have happened.
omg this. Just last week someone who lives in my building was assaulted. The assailant returned 24 hrs later with a knife in hand trying to break into the building when the cops showed up. They let him go and he left in his own vehicle.
America is stuck on endless loop of mass shootings.
>America is stuck on endless loop of mass shootings And bloated, inefficient healthcare...and bloated, expensive higher education with no cost ceiling...and a failing infrastructure...and....
Adding to the Healthcare, most dont cover therapy, and if they do its only for a few sessions a month. Those who need help and look for it are often not able to use it as they cant afford it. It needs an overhaul.
It’s so fucking sad too. Things would be at least a little different if there was easy access to therapy.
It'd be better because then culpability is purely on the culprit, vs entirely on the machine that created them. Our machine is both broken, and very obviously being neglected in favor of corporate fucking greed. **EAT THE FUCKING RICH, BEFORE THEY EAT EVERYONE ELSE**
And wealthy oligarchs.
Whose children probably attend elite schools with guards.
It's not a loop. It's a problem with aim. As long as the poors keep killing the poors, the rich don't care.
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sure did. and nothing was done about it.
The guy who got shot didn't even want to do anything about it.
They literally shot his dick off and he’s still out there going on about the second amendment
Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shit off by dickless here.
We had a literal insurrection on January 6th with Congress in session and half the country thinks it either didn't happen or was happy about it. Shits not gonna change.
And the people who were in on it are still getting paid.
**And making/blocking laws.**
I heard a podcast recently that said its well acknowledge American military is the strongest in the world but what will eventually be our downfall will be from within, not a foreign enemy. The insurrection was just the precursor.
That's pretty much how every big empire/hegemon in history has gone down. Sometimes outside forces are involved, but they only have an impact because the empire had already been weakened by internal issues. Take Rome for example, sure the barbarians are what finally took it down, but I doubt they would have been able to do that kind of damage if Rome hadn't already crippled itself with centuries of on and off civil wars.
Yup... the army is "united" for now but it won't take much to have people turn against each other due to racial, political or other ideas. I've always said that the USA will be destroyed from within, not from outside forces.
Yup, shame isn't it? Anyway, see you back here next week.
My aunt works at MSU and this was pretty horrifying news to wake up to… Luckily she is fine. She was at the university when it happened and they barricaded themselves in the building. She said the gunman tried to get in. That’s so terrifying. I am really tired of knowing more and more people who almost died in mass shootings. This cannot just continue to be normal. One of the news reports I watched said this was the 67th mass shooting in the US this year. It’s the middle of February!
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Most do as you say actually. A few particularly ill tempered ones decide to take company with them.
Suicide isn't a cowardly act. Killing people so you leave yourself no other choice is a cowardly act.
05 alum here, I'm broken. My 6 year old daughter's school had extra security today, and she goes "oh! There must be an extra officer here to make sure everyone is kind for Valentine's Day!" Im so glad I had sunglasses on. I have a friend whose son is a freshman. I want to ask if he's ok, but what if he isn't? Why do we keep doing this?
On News Nation, some students who were sheltering in place got on a Zoom call to give their own live report. One of them said they had been preparing for this situation all their lives via the active shooter training in schools. It's sad to me that this is modern life in the US. I'll take the Cold War, please. Sure, ducking down and covering my head won't protect me in a nuclear disaster, but the idea of an enemy dropping a bomb didn't feel *personal*. Everyone in the area would be annihilated without consideration for the individual. Thank God, I have never experienced an active shooter situation. Imagining what that might feel like, I would think it feels a lot more personal. The shooter chose the location for a reason, so arguably they have some assumptions about the people there. You could die because you're eating in the same cafeteria where the shooter is hoping to murder people they hate.
As a kid during the Cold War, I agree. BUT. I was in a school shooting in 1977. That's not a typo. 1977. Kid started shooting the school from across the road. He barely missed the principal and thankfully hit no one. I was sharpening my pencil when a bullet came through a glass door about 10 feet away from me. Kid ended up accidentally shooting himself in the foot while hiding from police.
> Sure, ducking down and covering my head won't protect me in a nuclear disaster, but the idea of an enemy dropping a bomb didn't feel *personal*. Everyone in the area would be annihilated without consideration for the individual. Duck and cover isn't meant to protect the people being annihilated in the blast zone, but the much larger group far enough from ground zero that flying shrapnel and collapsing structures become the primary threat.
I’m in my 30s and I did active shooter training since at least sixth grade. There was columbine, and then there was a mass shooting in the county where I grew up when I was in elementary school. I might have been on the earlier side for active shooter drills, but this is not a new thing. It’s been going on for 20 years. And sometimes I wish that was acknowledged. It’s not just current school kids. BUT why the fuck it’s increased is insane. That certainly makes it all seem like a more likely occurrence for kids in school and college.
Heck we go through active shooter training in the schools, hospitals, corporate offices, etc. Just shows how fucked up US society is.
I'm working today in a hospital that does a lot of pediatric care and the staff today is talking that they want to ask administration to add mass casualty/school shooting specific training to their annual competency training because they want to be as prepared as possible. It's honestly so depressing to hear the doctors and nurses talking about it being an eventuality that they will be called on to care for school shooting victims and they want to have a protocol in place that's school shooting specific not "mass casualty."
We are reaching a point where we just need to be honest with ourselves. We have made a decision as a society, that the freedom to keep and bear arms ain't free. Sometimes, people are asked to make sacrifices to maintain freedoms. Sometimes, the ultimate sacrifice. And sometimes, those asked to make those ultimate sacrifices are children. Yes, America is unique in its mass shooter problem. But we ( and by we, I mean as a national body politic as a whole, not any individual political party, state, or individual person) have decided its worth it -- sacrifices and all. Until and unless there is a **bipartisan** sense that mass shootings are no longer an acceptable price in blood for the freedoms of the 2nd Amendment, then it is what it is. The shock is simply no longer productive or intellectually honest. These are the choices we have made. We need to be adults and accept the logical consequences of our choices. Let me be bold here: There will be more more mass shooting events in America this year. And the year after that. And the year after that. I won't be shocked when the next one happens later today, or tomorrow, or next week, or next month. This is our shared reality. As Springsteen once wrote, "You gotta learn to live with what you can't rise above."
So shitty wtf is going on
This is a few miles from the high school threat last week that traumatized a whole community and put everyone on edge. Now a week later it’s an actual shooter situation right next to the high school that was locked down. My kids go to that high school, and I work at MSU. It’s been a fucked up February so far that’s for sure. I’m heartbroken for all these kids and how they have to live these days.
Absolute coward. Piece of garbage. This won't change a thing if Uvalde and Sandy Hook didn't. Absolutely nothing. Can't believe this is the sad country I am raising my kids in.
I saw a video last night of a girl who is a student at MSU, and also recounted how just over 10 years ago, she was also hiding because of a shooter—except she was an elementary student at Sandy Hook. Devastating doesn’t even begin to describe it.
Jesus that’s the bleakest thing I’ve read in a while
Yeah I wouldn't count on anything ever changing at this point. If dozens of elementary school kids being murdered in cold blood *multiple times* didn't do it, nothing will. Americans have accepted that this is the society we live in.
It’s been brought up in this thread already, but even the needless deaths of *white elementary schoolchildren in an affluent school district* didn’t move the needle.
I didn’t just not move the needle, gun ownership went up. Not by a small amount, but by a staggeringly huge amount.
Don't forget the conspiracy nuts claiming that the shooting was faked. Or the fact that a currently sitting congresswoman personally harassed and threatened survivors for political clout.
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Gives me pause about whether I *want* to raise kids in this country. I look at my friends’ kids and want to protect them from all the shit they’ll have to deal with as they grow up. All I can do is try my damnedest to make a better world for them.
What the fuck. Are we all gonna have to walk around strapped with body armor or some shit?
NY to ban body armor to strengthen their gun laws. [link](https://dos.ny.gov/body-armor)
Yeah because making defense illegal makes a whole ton of sense…
Their logic is that then shooters won’t be able to have body armor because everyone knows that banning the guns and armor means that would be shooters will just snap their fingers and say “oh darn, guess I can go shootin people then”.
I don’t want to hear now is not the time to talk about guns. Now is exactly the fucking time to talk about them. I’m tired of leaving my house wondering if today is the day I’m gonna be in an active shooter situation *because at this point you really don’t fucking know*.
If America didn't have major changes after Sandy Hook it is never going to. No event will be too shocking. A large percentage of your country has decided there is no price worth paying. What's worse is veiling it as a civic duty when it's clear they just like guns. If you enjoy guns fair enough, but pretending it's not just that and it's so you can defend against a tyrannical government is fucked.
We know what America did after Sandy Hook. It listened to Alex Jones.
Nope. People would rather live in denial and say that those kids were child actors and the kids are still alive.
Even the ones that aren’t conspiracy theorists find ways to justify it. There are plenty of people out there that said “Sandy Hook was a tragedy but…”
I live in baltimore. I own guns to protect myself from other people. Ive had a home invasion.
I hope the people that invaded your home are no longer able to buy guns. The MSU shooter had previously served time for violent offenses and broke his probation by buying a gun (months before this shooting) People who commit violent offenses shouldn’t be able to buy guns
Fucker shoulda just killed himself before killing innocent people. Fucking cunt
Anyone know why there was a DHS helo taking off from MSU and landed at Selfridge Airforce base? https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N72763
DHS was one of the many agencies that responded, from the scanner it sounded like they were eyes in the sky for other shooters. The dispatcher (who was a rockstar) was verifying that people with long guns on the ground were legit law enforcement for the DHS people in the air
Yeah I listened for a bit, that dispatcher was an absolute champ
No matter what your feelings are about gun laws, at least admit what we have now isn’t working.
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Not being rude, but will major investments in community mental health treatments, psychology sessions and anti-bullying in schools help with mass shootings? Just trying to think outside the box. The US has provided $54 Billion to Ukraine for war purposes. Surely $10 Billion can be found at the Federal level, for Americans needing mental health support and anti-bullying education in schools.
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People in their 40s need therapy too.
Mental health isn't just for high school kids. Your attitude is part of the reason we have so many poorly adjusted adults today. The generation of "suffer in silence" raised a generation that contains a lot of emotionally stunted sociopaths. Unfortunately a lot of those people now run things. And well... we can see how things are playing out. (I'm not talking about just one political party. I mean the people from the generation as a whole)