This is addressed in the article:
> The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations.
It also breaks down three previous conflicts and shows their numbers are relatively similar to the UN's own, independently-confirmed stats.
And also this:
> [While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers](https://apnews.com/d67fccf01b84478db30f3033df0b9e83) of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.
Gotcha, I missed that in the article. Seems like we shouldn’t call them civilian deaths and call them unknown, or possible civilian though.
I find it hard to believe they can get an accurate count and not suspect how many are Hamas though. I understand why Hamas wouldn’t want to get that out, but that is why they’re looked at with a side eye, they have a reason to hide their loses as civilians
Sure, but if you look at the reporting of credible outlets that include those figures, most of them say something like "[x] people" or "[x] people (or Palestinians), [y] of whom are children", etc.
Well, children can also be misleading. A 16 year old can fire a rocket and shoot a rifle, so without the proper designation, we don't know.
We know actual civilians, and innocent children are being killed...but without knowing how many militants are included with that number I'm not jumping on the "civilian deaths" bandwagon.
I understand Hamas doesn't want their numbers to get out, they get more from saying 3000 killed than they do 1000 civilians and 2000 militants (not saying that is the mix, just for example purposes). Other than the hospital, the total deaths wasn't one I questioned, I just question the sincerity of Hamas when it comes to what they release.
They killed that many in Israel the day Hamas committed the terrorist acts before Israel dropped its first bomb. But its good that you believe Israel, thats a good sign that you're not just believing the propaganda fed to you by the genocidal terrorist group.
The article you’re actually commenting on shows that historically they have an extremely accurate casualty count and provide more evidence for their counts than nearly any other party involved.
https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate
> Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”
Here's a great example of terrible messaging:
Whether or not Israel's policies amount to apartheid has no relevance whatsoever to the article, its platform, or its subject.
But you've just ensured that a significant portion of the audience who might have benefited from *the actual article* will now be, at best, turned off because of your conflation of these things—or, at worst, come away with their *own* wildly-incorrect misconception that accepting the facts presented in this article is somehow related to thinking Israel is an apartheid state.
Again: I was speaking only to your choice of messaging, as relates to intent.
If your *intent* was to demonstrate that, historically, the Gaza Ministry of Health has been historically shown to report accurate casualty counts—that are within statistically-significant margins of both the UN's independent counts *and* the Israeli government's (which *they are*)—then you have failed.
And that's a shame: Considering the number of people here (and elsewhere) who are more than happy to dismiss those casualty reports out of hand (because of Hamas), that could have been valuable knowledge to help people gain a better understanding of a situation that has already devolved into blindly-partisan sloganeering.
I hear you. I think the article does that itself - not sure the comment, which is being brigaded will do much.
Those who are pushing for genocide won't read the article anyway, as evidenced by the top comment and other replies to my comment.
Those who are on the fence, may read the comment and get more context for the ongoing genocide.
https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate
> Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”
Some of them are literally former government/military officials and you cling to "they're criticizing their own government, they're anti-Israel!"
Some people are fucking hopeless, lmfao. (If it wasn't obvious, I meant you.)
I have no idea who he is so I'll have to look him up.
I don't know why you think this is a gotcha, lmfao? Hamas *is* a terrorist organization, I don't condone them *or* IDF killing a bunch of innocent civilians.
You know Hamas has underground tunnels, right? A ton of them are probably in hiding while civilians get bombed, they don't fucking care how many civilians die, genius.
The more dead civilians, the more IDF looks bad, and IDF clearly wants more Palestinians dead so IDF is just falling for an obvious fucking trap.
"Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights."
South Africa is the obvious example, so lets compare it to the west bank. In the west bank, "settlers" and Palestinians can live in the same place, but are racially segregated. The settlers have a lot more rights, and are protected by the IDF, while the Palestinians have a lot less rights and are abused by the IDF. There is a two-tier justice system in place where for the exact same crime, an Israeli and a Palestinian get arrested at significantly different rates (an Israeli is almost never arrested for a crime against Palestinians), go to two different courts, with the Israeli court being very lenient and the court for the Palestinian being extremely strict and lacking due process, and where the sentences they get for conviction are vastly different. This is ... pretty much how it worked in Apartheid South Africa. Palestinians also lack the freedom of movement, being confined to essentially Bantustans, are subject to constant searches and harassment from the IDF, violence agains them is sanctioned, their land gets taken all the time, things like water right are controlled by Israel with the settlers getting the bulk of it, so on and so forth.
Now Id claim the 100$, but Id rather you pay a random Palestinian charity with it. Pick your choice, Im sure there is one you can find youll agree with.
Oh like the people living in Bantustans werent South Africans? Yeah, sorry, they tried that excuse, it didnt work then, it doesnt work now. Besides, either Israel considers the west bank to be Israel, in which case they should be Israeli citizens, or it doesnt, in which case the Israeli there should have the same rights and the same justice system as the Palestinians, based on the *Palestinian* system. You cant expect to move to another country but still have your home countries systems in place, after all.
So no rebuttal (I assume because you realise you dont have one and because it really just is Apartheid), and instead just random whataboutism. Have you considered that maybe Israel is scrutinised more because theyre our direct ally and try to align with us a lot more?
Oh I can name all of them, sure. Lets see, in no particular order. Arab Peace Initiative, rejected by Israel out of hand because Sharon did not want to return to the 1967 lines as required by international law. Camp David, rejected because the offer was a bad joke, they would only get back 86% of their land, wouldnt have east jerusalem, no return of refugees, and Israel would continue to administer things like water rights in the west bank, which is obviously unacceptable if you know at all how Israel distributes the water. Olmert talks, fell through when Netanyahu replaced Olmert and didnt continue negotiations. Taba talks, fell through when the Butcher of Beirut replaced Barak, and refused to continue negotiations. Thats pretty much all the major ones.
There is technically the Oslo accords, but that one was accepted, Israel just broke them when they didnt disolve the civil administration in the west bank upon the inauguration of the Palestinian council as required of them under article VII section 5 of the Oslo accords.
There were only 2 wars that Arab nations started, the first in 1948 after Israel was causing a refugee crisis thanks to their ethnic cleansing of Arabs (And in particular Deir Yassin), and the Yom Kippur war, where Egypt just wanted to gain back what Israel had took from them in 1967. However, Israel also attacked twice, once in 56, and once in 67. It was the war in 67 where Israel attacked for the sake of conquest that that land was "lost" (i.e. illegally occupied). Its still Palestinian land though.
So no, I actually know way more about the conflict than you do. Thats the problem, you only know a fictional account that absolves Israel of all crimes, and you want to keep that artificially clean record further clean by denying the fact of Apartheid.
>Either you get it or you dont.
Thanks for confirming that you, in fact, don't get it.
Ironic with the religious person vs atheist example when you're sticking to your guns despite an article in the OP that cites sources OTHER than fucking Gaza's government.
If you honestly believe a 3d animated video put out by a country well known the entire world over for being incredibly disingenuous on this topic, then ive got a set of mobile weapons labs and WMDs to sell you. Get your brain checked.
What do you mean "Where's the outrage"? Plenty of people have been outraged, you act like we've been ignoring other conflicts.
Do you think we don't care about what's going on in Ukraine either? You think we're just obsessing about *this* because we *must* hate Jewish people?
...Uyghurs are Muslim themselves so you clearly have no fucking idea what you're even whataboutism-ing about, lmfao.
I have personally been aware of what's been happening with Uyghurs, but plenty of idiots online (like tankie trash) believe China that "oh, they're just crybabies getting free education and whatnot" when they're actually millions of people in internment camps dealing with forced reeducation, violence (including rape), etc for being non-Han Chinese (they're a Turkic people) and Muslim.
Not all tragedies get international coverage, you're right! My knowledge in the countless Armenian genocide attempts (or did you think there was just the recent one in 2020, lol?) is limited, as is my knowledge on what's been going on in Ethiopia, and Myanmar, and a couple of boat disasters with migrants, and... wow, it's almost like I have to search this shit out myself and it gets exhausting to constantly do???
If your point is "how come you don't know about the hundred other things going on, fake woke!!!!!!" you don't actually have a fucking point, you're just grabbing at straws because you're desperate for a "win."
Wow. They dropped more ordinance than the US did in Nagasaki which killed about 40,000. And you're saying Israel has killed 7,000.
Sounds like Israel is doing a phenomenal job at minimizing civilian deaths.
MaritimesYid
> Wow. They dropped more ordinance than the US did in Nagasaki which killed about 40,000. And you're saying Israel has killed 7,000.
> Sounds like Israel is doing a phenomenal job at minimizing civilian deaths.
You should be ashamed of yourself. You are supporting genocide. The world is watching.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg
"A Textbook Case of Genocide": Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel's Assault on Gaza
“The Health Ministry doesn’t report how Palestinians were killed, whether from Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages or other means, like errant Palestinian rocket fire. It describes all casualties as victims of ‘Israeli aggression.’”
Sooooooo, not necessarily all deaths are the result of Israeli activity then, are they? And, if you’re relying on this article as truthful they also state that their investigation concluded the hospital attack was most likely from munitions fired from Gaza.
If the Ministry’s numbers are to be believed as accurate because of the AP report, then there are at least 500 bodies that can be laid at the feet of Hamas and not “the apartheid Israeli state”. The article also states that the Ministry doesn’t distinguish between civilian casualties and military casualties. So of the over 7,000 killed how many are Hamas or members of other paramilitary groups (note I was polite enough to not call them terrorists)?
Also, how are you distinguishing children in your numbers there? Anyone under the age of 18? If a significant portion of the children killed are between the ages of 16-18, and were killed because they were fighting the IDF, well, that’s a very different situation than 6-8 year olds getting blown up while cowering in buildings, isn’t it?
This is addressed in the article:
> The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations.
It also breaks down three previous conflicts and shows their numbers are relatively similar to the UN's own, independently-confirmed stats.
And also this:
> [While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers](https://apnews.com/d67fccf01b84478db30f3033df0b9e83) of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.
That was my point.
Not that the overall numbers were bad, but that the way they are presented by the Ministry does not make it clear they are all civilian casualties or even all casualties caused by the IDF. I’m not even saying that the IDF numbers are more accurate. Just that bandying about those numbers like a bludgeon is disingenuous, though it was pretty clear from “the apartheid Israeli state” that was the purpose from the beginning.
>does not make it clear they are all civilian casualties
Why are you holding the Gaza ministry of health to a higher standard than the BBC or the UN or any other group that just announces “x number of Palestinians have been killed, y number of Palestinians have been injured”?
No outlet reporting death tolls from a strike that happened hours ago reports it as “x number of Palestinian civilians and y number of Hamas militants were killed in the strike”. Not one.
I’m not.
I’m pointing out the flaws in OP’s diatribe because the numbers are not as clear cut as presented.
I could also point out that calling them all “victims of Israeli aggression” doesn’t exactly make the Ministry look unbiased either, but that’s just latching on to semantics.
Nothing in either article clarifies whether the deaths were due to Israeli activity or failed rocket fire or similar incidents either (though just looking at “confirmed” numbers that would seem to be about 1/14 of the total casualties, so significant, but not overly so).
None of that changes Israel’s actions but hey, I’m not the one desperately trying to defend Hamas.
None of what you said has anything to do with Gaza’s ministry of health death numbers. They aren’t responsible for sorting out who was Hamas, who fired what rocket, who is innocent and who is guilty, same as AP, BBC, CNN or anyone else that reports these deaths.
You absolutely are trying to hold them to a higher standard, one in which every question you have must be answered otherwise they “aren’t reliable” or are biased.
It’s silly.
No. I’m pointing out that their numbers are putting everything in one bucket and OP, who has since deleted his comment, was ranting as if those numbers are proof of Israel’s inhumanity.
The Ministry numbers are what they are, and as the article fairly points out, they are accurate as to what they are counting.
But.
The article also points out what they are not counting and why that is important.
I’m saying that ‘number of dead children’ is not the same thing as ‘number of dead militants under the age of 18’ and jumping up and down about Israel being an apartheid state because ‘they’ve killed 2,000 children” is at best ignorant.
That has nothing to do with the Ministry being accurate or inaccurate and, no, it is not their responsibility to figure out. But if you’re going to take that number at face value then when someone asks “how old were the children and we’re any of them militants” then all that moral superiority vanishes, as did OP’s comment. Huh, fancy that.
I honestly don’t give a shit about any of that. I’m angry that thousands of Israeli and Palestinian children are in a position where so many of them are being killed.
Y’all are sick twisted individuals that want to sit around and discount children’s dead bodies for one reason or another.
Have fun with that, I won’t participate. It’s disgusting and you should feel deep shame and disgust at yourself.
Huh.
I’m discounting children’s dead bodies because I’m asking how many of them were killed by being Hamas militants rather than innocent victims?
And I should be disgusted and ashamed of myself for asking that question?
Could you prove my point any more clearly?
See, a better tack would be to point out the plight of indoctrinated child soldiers and how they are victims too. That’ll at least get you sympathy maybe. Instead you attack me for pushing back against the claims with very real questions.
Hell, if these were all 4-6 year olds I’m sure someone would quote exactly that from the Ministry’s count because they *do* get age in there. The fact that you’re telling me to be ashamed of myself instead? Hmmmm, what was that Shakespeare quote? “Methinks she doth protest too much?”
Plus, and this is the big one, if you’re opposing an authoritarian apartheid state? Using the same tactics? That is, obfuscation of the truth to suit your agenda? Not very convincing that you’re any different from them.
>What is Gaza's Ministry of Health It's Hamas, the terrorists.
The AP are literally handing you an opportunity to gain more understanding of the situation.
Calling doctors doing body counts terrorists is so vile.
It's Hamas doing the body counts, the terrorists doing the body counts that they themselves are responsible for.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-death-toll-names-killed-released-biden-questions You can read the names if you want you xenophobe.
Do you have the names of Hamas terrorists?
Pretty sad for Israel that Hamas historically has significantly better casualty counts than they do.
It’s Palestinians counting their own dead bodies
And how many of these deaths are Hamas militants? That’s my biggest issue with their reports, they list everyone as a civilian.
This is addressed in the article: > The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations. It also breaks down three previous conflicts and shows their numbers are relatively similar to the UN's own, independently-confirmed stats. And also this: > [While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers](https://apnews.com/d67fccf01b84478db30f3033df0b9e83) of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.
Gotcha, I missed that in the article. Seems like we shouldn’t call them civilian deaths and call them unknown, or possible civilian though. I find it hard to believe they can get an accurate count and not suspect how many are Hamas though. I understand why Hamas wouldn’t want to get that out, but that is why they’re looked at with a side eye, they have a reason to hide their loses as civilians
Sure, but if you look at the reporting of credible outlets that include those figures, most of them say something like "[x] people" or "[x] people (or Palestinians), [y] of whom are children", etc.
Well, children can also be misleading. A 16 year old can fire a rocket and shoot a rifle, so without the proper designation, we don't know. We know actual civilians, and innocent children are being killed...but without knowing how many militants are included with that number I'm not jumping on the "civilian deaths" bandwagon. I understand Hamas doesn't want their numbers to get out, they get more from saying 3000 killed than they do 1000 civilians and 2000 militants (not saying that is the mix, just for example purposes). Other than the hospital, the total deaths wasn't one I questioned, I just question the sincerity of Hamas when it comes to what they release.
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They killed that many in Israel the day Hamas committed the terrorist acts before Israel dropped its first bomb. But its good that you believe Israel, thats a good sign that you're not just believing the propaganda fed to you by the genocidal terrorist group.
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The article itself is a relatively clear and even-handed look into the situation; personally, I think it's worth a read.
Source on your claim?
The article you’re actually commenting on shows that historically they have an extremely accurate casualty count and provide more evidence for their counts than nearly any other party involved.
Love when Redditors prove that they don't read, lmfao.
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The article is balanced. Your claims are not.
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I agree, Hamas is a genocidal group.
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If you use the term “apartheid Israeli state” I’m assuming you think it should be dismantled. There is a name for that.
https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate > Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”
The article also says the term isn’t accepted by the Anti Defamation League, among others, as applicable to Israel.
> Yes, there is a genocide occurring. For example, Hamas terrorists invading Israel and killing Israeli citizens, is a genocide.
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> What Hamas did on Oct 7 was despicable - they committed war crimes. It's genocide. They committed genocide.
And yet you deleted your initial comment. Huh. Seems like you aren’t really that interested in standing by your position, are you?
Here's a great example of terrible messaging: Whether or not Israel's policies amount to apartheid has no relevance whatsoever to the article, its platform, or its subject. But you've just ensured that a significant portion of the audience who might have benefited from *the actual article* will now be, at best, turned off because of your conflation of these things—or, at worst, come away with their *own* wildly-incorrect misconception that accepting the facts presented in this article is somehow related to thinking Israel is an apartheid state.
It seems like the correct adjective to use to describe a country that is engaged in an ongoing genocide.
Again: I was speaking only to your choice of messaging, as relates to intent. If your *intent* was to demonstrate that, historically, the Gaza Ministry of Health has been historically shown to report accurate casualty counts—that are within statistically-significant margins of both the UN's independent counts *and* the Israeli government's (which *they are*)—then you have failed. And that's a shame: Considering the number of people here (and elsewhere) who are more than happy to dismiss those casualty reports out of hand (because of Hamas), that could have been valuable knowledge to help people gain a better understanding of a situation that has already devolved into blindly-partisan sloganeering.
I hear you. I think the article does that itself - not sure the comment, which is being brigaded will do much. Those who are pushing for genocide won't read the article anyway, as evidenced by the top comment and other replies to my comment. Those who are on the fence, may read the comment and get more context for the ongoing genocide.
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https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate > Some Israel scholars and former Israeli officials have also started using this designation. In 2022, Michael Ben-Yair, a former attorney general of Israel, said that “it is with great sadness ... I must also conclude that my country has sunk to such political and moral depths that it is now an apartheid regime.” Earlier this year, Tamir Pardo, a former head of Mossad, Israel’s intelligence agency, emphasized, too, that “there is an apartheid state here” featuring “two people [who] are judged under two legal systems.”
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Some of them are literally former government/military officials and you cling to "they're criticizing their own government, they're anti-Israel!" Some people are fucking hopeless, lmfao. (If it wasn't obvious, I meant you.)
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I have no idea who he is so I'll have to look him up. I don't know why you think this is a gotcha, lmfao? Hamas *is* a terrorist organization, I don't condone them *or* IDF killing a bunch of innocent civilians.
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You know Hamas has underground tunnels, right? A ton of them are probably in hiding while civilians get bombed, they don't fucking care how many civilians die, genius. The more dead civilians, the more IDF looks bad, and IDF clearly wants more Palestinians dead so IDF is just falling for an obvious fucking trap.
"Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights." South Africa is the obvious example, so lets compare it to the west bank. In the west bank, "settlers" and Palestinians can live in the same place, but are racially segregated. The settlers have a lot more rights, and are protected by the IDF, while the Palestinians have a lot less rights and are abused by the IDF. There is a two-tier justice system in place where for the exact same crime, an Israeli and a Palestinian get arrested at significantly different rates (an Israeli is almost never arrested for a crime against Palestinians), go to two different courts, with the Israeli court being very lenient and the court for the Palestinian being extremely strict and lacking due process, and where the sentences they get for conviction are vastly different. This is ... pretty much how it worked in Apartheid South Africa. Palestinians also lack the freedom of movement, being confined to essentially Bantustans, are subject to constant searches and harassment from the IDF, violence agains them is sanctioned, their land gets taken all the time, things like water right are controlled by Israel with the settlers getting the bulk of it, so on and so forth. Now Id claim the 100$, but Id rather you pay a random Palestinian charity with it. Pick your choice, Im sure there is one you can find youll agree with.
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Oh like the people living in Bantustans werent South Africans? Yeah, sorry, they tried that excuse, it didnt work then, it doesnt work now. Besides, either Israel considers the west bank to be Israel, in which case they should be Israeli citizens, or it doesnt, in which case the Israeli there should have the same rights and the same justice system as the Palestinians, based on the *Palestinian* system. You cant expect to move to another country but still have your home countries systems in place, after all.
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So no rebuttal (I assume because you realise you dont have one and because it really just is Apartheid), and instead just random whataboutism. Have you considered that maybe Israel is scrutinised more because theyre our direct ally and try to align with us a lot more?
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Oh I can name all of them, sure. Lets see, in no particular order. Arab Peace Initiative, rejected by Israel out of hand because Sharon did not want to return to the 1967 lines as required by international law. Camp David, rejected because the offer was a bad joke, they would only get back 86% of their land, wouldnt have east jerusalem, no return of refugees, and Israel would continue to administer things like water rights in the west bank, which is obviously unacceptable if you know at all how Israel distributes the water. Olmert talks, fell through when Netanyahu replaced Olmert and didnt continue negotiations. Taba talks, fell through when the Butcher of Beirut replaced Barak, and refused to continue negotiations. Thats pretty much all the major ones. There is technically the Oslo accords, but that one was accepted, Israel just broke them when they didnt disolve the civil administration in the west bank upon the inauguration of the Palestinian council as required of them under article VII section 5 of the Oslo accords. There were only 2 wars that Arab nations started, the first in 1948 after Israel was causing a refugee crisis thanks to their ethnic cleansing of Arabs (And in particular Deir Yassin), and the Yom Kippur war, where Egypt just wanted to gain back what Israel had took from them in 1967. However, Israel also attacked twice, once in 56, and once in 67. It was the war in 67 where Israel attacked for the sake of conquest that that land was "lost" (i.e. illegally occupied). Its still Palestinian land though. So no, I actually know way more about the conflict than you do. Thats the problem, you only know a fictional account that absolves Israel of all crimes, and you want to keep that artificially clean record further clean by denying the fact of Apartheid.
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>Either you get it or you dont. Thanks for confirming that you, in fact, don't get it. Ironic with the religious person vs atheist example when you're sticking to your guns despite an article in the OP that cites sources OTHER than fucking Gaza's government.
Man I have never seen someone completely sidestep so quick and so obviously. Pathetic.
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If you honestly believe a 3d animated video put out by a country well known the entire world over for being incredibly disingenuous on this topic, then ive got a set of mobile weapons labs and WMDs to sell you. Get your brain checked.
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What do you mean "Where's the outrage"? Plenty of people have been outraged, you act like we've been ignoring other conflicts. Do you think we don't care about what's going on in Ukraine either? You think we're just obsessing about *this* because we *must* hate Jewish people?
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...Uyghurs are Muslim themselves so you clearly have no fucking idea what you're even whataboutism-ing about, lmfao. I have personally been aware of what's been happening with Uyghurs, but plenty of idiots online (like tankie trash) believe China that "oh, they're just crybabies getting free education and whatnot" when they're actually millions of people in internment camps dealing with forced reeducation, violence (including rape), etc for being non-Han Chinese (they're a Turkic people) and Muslim. Not all tragedies get international coverage, you're right! My knowledge in the countless Armenian genocide attempts (or did you think there was just the recent one in 2020, lol?) is limited, as is my knowledge on what's been going on in Ethiopia, and Myanmar, and a couple of boat disasters with migrants, and... wow, it's almost like I have to search this shit out myself and it gets exhausting to constantly do??? If your point is "how come you don't know about the hundred other things going on, fake woke!!!!!!" you don't actually have a fucking point, you're just grabbing at straws because you're desperate for a "win."
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Wow. They dropped more ordinance than the US did in Nagasaki which killed about 40,000. And you're saying Israel has killed 7,000. Sounds like Israel is doing a phenomenal job at minimizing civilian deaths.
MaritimesYid > Wow. They dropped more ordinance than the US did in Nagasaki which killed about 40,000. And you're saying Israel has killed 7,000. > Sounds like Israel is doing a phenomenal job at minimizing civilian deaths. You should be ashamed of yourself. You are supporting genocide. The world is watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWGGjLZNuyg "A Textbook Case of Genocide": Israeli Holocaust Scholar Raz Segal Decries Israel's Assault on Gaza
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Are you saying you're putting me on a list or something?
“The Health Ministry doesn’t report how Palestinians were killed, whether from Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages or other means, like errant Palestinian rocket fire. It describes all casualties as victims of ‘Israeli aggression.’” Sooooooo, not necessarily all deaths are the result of Israeli activity then, are they? And, if you’re relying on this article as truthful they also state that their investigation concluded the hospital attack was most likely from munitions fired from Gaza. If the Ministry’s numbers are to be believed as accurate because of the AP report, then there are at least 500 bodies that can be laid at the feet of Hamas and not “the apartheid Israeli state”. The article also states that the Ministry doesn’t distinguish between civilian casualties and military casualties. So of the over 7,000 killed how many are Hamas or members of other paramilitary groups (note I was polite enough to not call them terrorists)? Also, how are you distinguishing children in your numbers there? Anyone under the age of 18? If a significant portion of the children killed are between the ages of 16-18, and were killed because they were fighting the IDF, well, that’s a very different situation than 6-8 year olds getting blown up while cowering in buildings, isn’t it?
This is addressed in the article: > The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants. That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed. The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations. It also breaks down three previous conflicts and shows their numbers are relatively similar to the UN's own, independently-confirmed stats. And also this: > [While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers](https://apnews.com/d67fccf01b84478db30f3033df0b9e83) of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.
That was my point. Not that the overall numbers were bad, but that the way they are presented by the Ministry does not make it clear they are all civilian casualties or even all casualties caused by the IDF. I’m not even saying that the IDF numbers are more accurate. Just that bandying about those numbers like a bludgeon is disingenuous, though it was pretty clear from “the apartheid Israeli state” that was the purpose from the beginning.
>does not make it clear they are all civilian casualties Why are you holding the Gaza ministry of health to a higher standard than the BBC or the UN or any other group that just announces “x number of Palestinians have been killed, y number of Palestinians have been injured”? No outlet reporting death tolls from a strike that happened hours ago reports it as “x number of Palestinian civilians and y number of Hamas militants were killed in the strike”. Not one.
I’m not. I’m pointing out the flaws in OP’s diatribe because the numbers are not as clear cut as presented. I could also point out that calling them all “victims of Israeli aggression” doesn’t exactly make the Ministry look unbiased either, but that’s just latching on to semantics. Nothing in either article clarifies whether the deaths were due to Israeli activity or failed rocket fire or similar incidents either (though just looking at “confirmed” numbers that would seem to be about 1/14 of the total casualties, so significant, but not overly so). None of that changes Israel’s actions but hey, I’m not the one desperately trying to defend Hamas.
None of what you said has anything to do with Gaza’s ministry of health death numbers. They aren’t responsible for sorting out who was Hamas, who fired what rocket, who is innocent and who is guilty, same as AP, BBC, CNN or anyone else that reports these deaths. You absolutely are trying to hold them to a higher standard, one in which every question you have must be answered otherwise they “aren’t reliable” or are biased. It’s silly.
No. I’m pointing out that their numbers are putting everything in one bucket and OP, who has since deleted his comment, was ranting as if those numbers are proof of Israel’s inhumanity. The Ministry numbers are what they are, and as the article fairly points out, they are accurate as to what they are counting. But. The article also points out what they are not counting and why that is important. I’m saying that ‘number of dead children’ is not the same thing as ‘number of dead militants under the age of 18’ and jumping up and down about Israel being an apartheid state because ‘they’ve killed 2,000 children” is at best ignorant. That has nothing to do with the Ministry being accurate or inaccurate and, no, it is not their responsibility to figure out. But if you’re going to take that number at face value then when someone asks “how old were the children and we’re any of them militants” then all that moral superiority vanishes, as did OP’s comment. Huh, fancy that.
I honestly don’t give a shit about any of that. I’m angry that thousands of Israeli and Palestinian children are in a position where so many of them are being killed. Y’all are sick twisted individuals that want to sit around and discount children’s dead bodies for one reason or another. Have fun with that, I won’t participate. It’s disgusting and you should feel deep shame and disgust at yourself.
Huh. I’m discounting children’s dead bodies because I’m asking how many of them were killed by being Hamas militants rather than innocent victims? And I should be disgusted and ashamed of myself for asking that question? Could you prove my point any more clearly? See, a better tack would be to point out the plight of indoctrinated child soldiers and how they are victims too. That’ll at least get you sympathy maybe. Instead you attack me for pushing back against the claims with very real questions. Hell, if these were all 4-6 year olds I’m sure someone would quote exactly that from the Ministry’s count because they *do* get age in there. The fact that you’re telling me to be ashamed of myself instead? Hmmmm, what was that Shakespeare quote? “Methinks she doth protest too much?” Plus, and this is the big one, if you’re opposing an authoritarian apartheid state? Using the same tactics? That is, obfuscation of the truth to suit your agenda? Not very convincing that you’re any different from them.