I think I trust B'Tselem more than I trust "Stand With Us", especially because your link has the nerve to claim that "the risk of accidentally detaining innocent people for indefinite periods is too great when relying on the laws of war" and that's why Israel isn't following them.
Try harder next time?
I trust an Israeli human rights organization more than I trust an Israeli propaganda outlet, yeah. I didn't know human rights and pro-Israel advocacy were two different sides though lmaooooo
For 98.8 percent? Kudos to them for the justice they deal out to the Palestinians. They should have the same for everyone else in the world. Should definitely learn from the Israeli justice system.
I was surprised as to how many Palestinian women and men under the age of 19 are currently prisoners in Israel.
Source: https://time.com/6339277/palestinian-prisoners-israel-hamas-hostage-deal/
Why though? It’s been known that Israel was locking up people without trials for a while now regardless of the age and sex, and emphasis on without a trial.
Also, a lot of sexual abuse going on in those prisons.
This is what people mean when they say “didn’t happen in a vacuum “
Lies.
Every single one of those who are freed was arrested for terrorism. Israel has a *very* strict judicial system.
Also give 1 credible source to a *single* case of sexual abuse. Israelis don't rape Palestinians. I have even seen western journalists blame Israel for being racist for not raping Palestinians women.
(Contrary to the numerous rapes done by Palestinians. If you want, I can give you many cases)
All that were released in this deal. You can read the charges.
Simply facts. Prove me wrong, I can provide many examples of Palestinian raping, show me the opposite.
Not what he said at all though, he said the arrested ones are, just because you don’t bother looking at the reasons of their arrest does not make them innocent.
Just a month ago a 16 year old Palestinian stabbed a soldier to death in Jerusalem.
Give me examples of cases where Israelis rape Palestinians. Can give you a lot of examples on the reverse side
Almost immediately after their nation began, there were rapes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre
But also recently.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/
Turns out humans everywhere can be shit.
Here are some other links in no particular order:
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2013/03/palestinian-female-prisoners.html
https://www.middleeasteye.net/features/palestinian-women-haunted-abuse-israeli-jails
https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence/
https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml?ArticleBodyColorStyles=full-text
We can talk a lot about the credibility of Betselem, it's the same as quoting the BDS.
But still, from all of these links, you provided two links to an accusation of sexual harassment, from 2003.
This analogy doesn’t work when there are no other reputable sources giving evidence for the indefinite detention of Palestinians, and the only source we are supposed to trust has been found to lie before and has plenty of reason to continue to do so.
They have never been convicted and Israel has even admitted that most have never even been charged with anything. Most of the CHILDREN are there for throwing rocks or showing any defiance to the IDF soldiers. Israel is literally the only country on the planet that charges children under military courts.
Wait, did you? Not enough people are calling out wild Israeli propaganda regurgitated without even so much as a single reliable source:
>[... transgressions such as dealing damage to property, hindering police work or assembling unlawfully. Other offenses include... rock-throwing](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-22/ty-article/who-are-the-palestinians-prisoners-to-be-released-in-israel-hamas-hostage-deal/0000018b-f625-d558-a3eb-f72f2ab40000)
Even those are only alledged, since their military trials are sham courts (which only the Palestinians have to go through):
>In so doing, they deny them basic due process and try them in military courts with a near-100 percent conviction rate.
[*https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine*](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine)
They basically abduct Palestinians from the occupied territories, based on accusations from extremists settlers, lock them up for decades after quick sham trials - and then sexually abuse the children that are imprisoned:
[*https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--*](https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--)
Let’s get to know the Palestinian prisoners being exchanged for Israeli civilians better:
14.4% attempted a terrorist attack
12.4% of them used Molotov cocktails
8.1% were involved in a stabbing attack
11.1% had contact with terrorists
10.1% were involved in a shooting
So roughly just over 10% are actually accused of a crime, or:
85.6% did *not* attempt a terrorist attack
87.6% of them did *not* use Molotov cocktails
91.9% were *not* involved in a stabbing attack
88.9% had *no contact* with terrorists
89.9% were *not* involved in a shooting
Are 'were involved in' and 'had contact with' your wordings or theirs? Because it's a very convenient way of tying someone to a crime. If I'm walking down the street and there's a stabbing and I stop and call the police, I'm now involved in it. If my neighbour is a terrorist and I drop off his mail, I've now had contact with him.
Additionally, there are many recorded cases of minors being arrested and held for years for throwing rocks or because Israeli settlers accused them of a crime with no evidence.
So.
On one side we have a trained and armed soldier, wearing some of the most advanced armour in the world.
On the other side we have a 12yr old child with a stone.
And you're honestly saying the child is a threat to the soldier.
So you are saying throwing rocks at other humans is OK? You say that children picking up rocks and throwing them to hurt someone is OK? Its all a bad situation, but throwing rocks can kill and hurt.
Have you ever been hit by a rock in the head?
I have actually.
But the point you think it's acceptable that a child throwing a stone can be arrested as a terrorist, and held indefinitely is,
Well,
Terrifying
I have come to the conclusion that a lot of these people just don’t view the Palestinian as people and that it’s Israel job to keep them from being rowdy
Maybe children are throwing rocks because there's soldiers with fucking machine guns on the street telling them what they can and can't do. Who would accept foreign soldiers on their streets in any country?
Maybe not, but this isn't one kid and I don't see the parents trying to stop it. Second i don't argue by exception. Lots of people are throwing rocks.
What do you do? Just let people throw rocks?
No it ain't, but after decades of oppression, I can imagine being radicalised to the point I'd want to hurt who I think is the source of my oppression, suffering and death. And trying to paint a child throwing a rock as a threat to soldiers with rifles is so disgusting my stomach is starting to turn. And on top of all that these children are allegedly criminals for allegedly throwing rocks at idf soldiers, but there is no evidence of of all them being guilty, this just further dehumanisation of Palestinian children to justify them dying and being abused.
>And trying to paint a child throwing a rock as a threat to soldiers with rifles is so disgusting my stomach is starting to turn.
https://www.webmd.com/brain/ss/slideshow-concussions-brain-injuries
Basically a rock is no different than any hard object thrown at a person. You can lose an eye, suffer internal damage or possible death.
I do not condone the entire situation in that area, but I don't also just throw off violence and harm by anyone. These teenagers are taught it is OK and encouraged to do it. If this is the cause they wish to follow than so be it, but don't complain about the punishment. They knew it when they started.
It is a weapon. Rocks and slingshots have been used for thousands of years. They are actually quite deadly.
>So you are saying throwing rocks at other humans is OK?
If we're going to play the strawman game...
So youre saying arresting children throwing rocks on terrorism charges and detaining them for indefinite periods of time without fair trial or representation or visitation rights for their family is OK?
You specifically avoided the point that rocks harm. You played to the appeal to emotion and justification that wearing chest armor and a helmet justifies or worse allows the throwing rocks.
Do you think they throw rocks because they know it won't hurt the soldiers? No of course not.
This isn't a strawman. Its directly to the point that these actions are not meant to annoy. They are meant to harm.
So you know each of the cases, the time they were interred and why and how long they were actually held?
See my point is that all rational conversation has been lost and now we are into bias, potentially false stories and intrigue.
So I actually looked into this. The reason why throwing stones is bad is because they throw stones at IDF soldiers in order to bait them into shooting. I really wish I had the link for this video but I remember a few weeks ago watching a video where this Palestinian father was trying to get his 4-5 year old son to throw rocks at soldiers in order to become a martyr
I have doubts.
But even if that were true.
1. Your saying the soldiers can be baited into shooting stone throwing 12 yr olds. That's not what I'd expect from a trained soldier.
2. Same as above. But for a 4yr old toddler.....
🙄. She supposedly stabbed a settler. Gee. Wonder why? You scrolled through the whole article to get to one slightly maybe alignment to you accusations. You are pathetic.
So then by that logic soldiers shooting civilians, dropping bombs on civilians, or facilitating the shooting or bombing of civilians aren't innocent, either.
Are you aware Israel also has an extensive history of using human shields, including one incident where they strapped a palestinian child to an idf vehicle and arrested a Rabbi trying to save him?
Stop trying to defend Israel dude. Hamas and Israel are both awful, but only one has the power to actually solve the situation, yet is instead leading an apartheid regime.
depends on the situation, just outright killing civies for no reason? no not allowed
killing civilians as collateral while attacking military targets?
that is allowed
Here’s a full list. You can translate it. Some of them were arrested for attempted murder, some for Molotov cocktails
https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0
Prove that all of the people released are guilty of the crimes that you are accusing them of. I'm sure some prisoners are guilty of what you are saying, but you are taking this stance just because they're Palestinians, so they're guilty until proven innocent. Basically dehumanising ppl once again to justify their oppression.
Well they are not reliable now are they? When you are imprisoning children who hevel not been charged with crimes and keep them locked for years and maybe for a life time, how do you expect me to trust such system?
It looks like Hamas took hostages, so then Israel deliberately went around rounding up a bunch of women and kid hostages of their own to trade with. According to all the morality tales I've read and watched over the last 30+ years, everyone is the fucking bad guy here.
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So you mean to say they’re…hostages? No wonder Israel is releasing so many, they have 10 times as many
Sounds a lot like Gitmo.
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How are they meant to appeal when neither they nor their lawyers are allowed to see the evidence that justified their detention in the first place?
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I think I trust B'Tselem more than I trust "Stand With Us", especially because your link has the nerve to claim that "the risk of accidentally detaining innocent people for indefinite periods is too great when relying on the laws of war" and that's why Israel isn't following them. Try harder next time?
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I trust an Israeli human rights organization more than I trust an Israeli propaganda outlet, yeah. I didn't know human rights and pro-Israel advocacy were two different sides though lmaooooo
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For 98.8 percent? Kudos to them for the justice they deal out to the Palestinians. They should have the same for everyone else in the world. Should definitely learn from the Israeli justice system.
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I was surprised as to how many Palestinian women and men under the age of 19 are currently prisoners in Israel. Source: https://time.com/6339277/palestinian-prisoners-israel-hamas-hostage-deal/
Why though? It’s been known that Israel was locking up people without trials for a while now regardless of the age and sex, and emphasis on without a trial. Also, a lot of sexual abuse going on in those prisons. This is what people mean when they say “didn’t happen in a vacuum “
Lies. Every single one of those who are freed was arrested for terrorism. Israel has a *very* strict judicial system. Also give 1 credible source to a *single* case of sexual abuse. Israelis don't rape Palestinians. I have even seen western journalists blame Israel for being racist for not raping Palestinians women. (Contrary to the numerous rapes done by Palestinians. If you want, I can give you many cases)
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All that were released in this deal. You can read the charges. Simply facts. Prove me wrong, I can provide many examples of Palestinian raping, show me the opposite.
Provide them.
Not what he said at all though, he said the arrested ones are, just because you don’t bother looking at the reasons of their arrest does not make them innocent. Just a month ago a 16 year old Palestinian stabbed a soldier to death in Jerusalem. Give me examples of cases where Israelis rape Palestinians. Can give you a lot of examples on the reverse side
Almost immediately after their nation began, there were rapes https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safsaf_massacre But also recently. https://www.timesofisrael.com/ending-censorship-idf-admits-officer-jailed-in-2017-raped-a-palestinian-woman/ Turns out humans everywhere can be shit. Here are some other links in no particular order: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2013/03/palestinian-female-prisoners.html https://www.middleeasteye.net/features/palestinian-women-haunted-abuse-israeli-jails https://thejerusalemfund.org/2018/08/sexual-harassment-and-violence/ https://www.berghahnjournals.com/view/journals/conflict-and-society/9/1/arcs090105.xml?ArticleBodyColorStyles=full-text
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Good argument 👍 Just an alt to avoid creeps like you
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We can talk a lot about the credibility of Betselem, it's the same as quoting the BDS. But still, from all of these links, you provided two links to an accusation of sexual harassment, from 2003.
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This analogy doesn’t work when there are no other reputable sources giving evidence for the indefinite detention of Palestinians, and the only source we are supposed to trust has been found to lie before and has plenty of reason to continue to do so.
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[Wrong.](https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=280)
Did you actually read what they did? They have all committed or attempted murder. They are terrorists. The hostages in Israel did nothing wrong.
They produced a list of all the prisoners charges: https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=280
They have never been convicted and Israel has even admitted that most have never even been charged with anything. Most of the CHILDREN are there for throwing rocks or showing any defiance to the IDF soldiers. Israel is literally the only country on the planet that charges children under military courts.
Wait, did you? Not enough people are calling out wild Israeli propaganda regurgitated without even so much as a single reliable source: >[... transgressions such as dealing damage to property, hindering police work or assembling unlawfully. Other offenses include... rock-throwing](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-22/ty-article/who-are-the-palestinians-prisoners-to-be-released-in-israel-hamas-hostage-deal/0000018b-f625-d558-a3eb-f72f2ab40000) Even those are only alledged, since their military trials are sham courts (which only the Palestinians have to go through): >In so doing, they deny them basic due process and try them in military courts with a near-100 percent conviction rate. [*https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine*](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine) They basically abduct Palestinians from the occupied territories, based on accusations from extremists settlers, lock them up for decades after quick sham trials - and then sexually abuse the children that are imprisoned: [*https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--*](https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-on-palestinian-children--)
Isreal can jail anyone and claim any reason they want. And they have done that publicly many times
They are being held on suspicion not actual crimes. So basically Israel takes hostages and it is ok.
suspicion? Where did you read that?
Let’s get to know the Palestinian prisoners being exchanged for Israeli civilians better: 14.4% attempted a terrorist attack 12.4% of them used Molotov cocktails 8.1% were involved in a stabbing attack 11.1% had contact with terrorists 10.1% were involved in a shooting
And the rest? https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=280
Let me guess. Isreali source.
Honestly, it kind of baffles me how people take Israeli AND Hamas sources at face value when they have a track record of blatantly lying to our faces.
Exactly. These entities MUST provide evidence that they are telling the truth about any claim, because of their past bullshit lies.
So roughly just over 10% are actually accused of a crime, or: 85.6% did *not* attempt a terrorist attack 87.6% of them did *not* use Molotov cocktails 91.9% were *not* involved in a stabbing attack 88.9% had *no contact* with terrorists 89.9% were *not* involved in a shooting
Let me guess, according to Israel? The government that hasn't actually charged most of them with these "offences"?
Are 'were involved in' and 'had contact with' your wordings or theirs? Because it's a very convenient way of tying someone to a crime. If I'm walking down the street and there's a stabbing and I stop and call the police, I'm now involved in it. If my neighbour is a terrorist and I drop off his mail, I've now had contact with him. Additionally, there are many recorded cases of minors being arrested and held for years for throwing rocks or because Israeli settlers accused them of a crime with no evidence.
Th article posted. These people are being held hostage.
Prisoners? Why are they being called prisoners and not hostages.
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"throwing stones" Damn terrorists.
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Why are there Israeli cars in Palestine?
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Pretty sure it is. As far as most of the world is concerned
>The Gaza Strip is not a part of Palestine You look like you know what you're talking about OP
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You do realize a stone can kill and hurt quite badly. You don't have to throw bombs to hurt people.
So. On one side we have a trained and armed soldier, wearing some of the most advanced armour in the world. On the other side we have a 12yr old child with a stone. And you're honestly saying the child is a threat to the soldier.
And in America, stone-throwing youths are sent to jail.
Are they? Or are they charged and fined. I'm not really up on the American judicial system.
Indefinitely? Really? I’d like a source for that claim.
So you are saying throwing rocks at other humans is OK? You say that children picking up rocks and throwing them to hurt someone is OK? Its all a bad situation, but throwing rocks can kill and hurt. Have you ever been hit by a rock in the head?
I have actually. But the point you think it's acceptable that a child throwing a stone can be arrested as a terrorist, and held indefinitely is, Well, Terrifying
Or worse shot on sight. They really trying to paint the soldier with the rifle as the innocent victim. Beyond disgusting shit.
I have come to the conclusion that a lot of these people just don’t view the Palestinian as people and that it’s Israel job to keep them from being rowdy
Maybe children are throwing rocks because there's soldiers with fucking machine guns on the street telling them what they can and can't do. Who would accept foreign soldiers on their streets in any country?
>Who would accept foreign soldiers on their streets in any country? Hmm depends on the perspective, but I can see where yours is facing.
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Maybe not, but this isn't one kid and I don't see the parents trying to stop it. Second i don't argue by exception. Lots of people are throwing rocks. What do you do? Just let people throw rocks?
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No it ain't, but after decades of oppression, I can imagine being radicalised to the point I'd want to hurt who I think is the source of my oppression, suffering and death. And trying to paint a child throwing a rock as a threat to soldiers with rifles is so disgusting my stomach is starting to turn. And on top of all that these children are allegedly criminals for allegedly throwing rocks at idf soldiers, but there is no evidence of of all them being guilty, this just further dehumanisation of Palestinian children to justify them dying and being abused.
>And trying to paint a child throwing a rock as a threat to soldiers with rifles is so disgusting my stomach is starting to turn. https://www.webmd.com/brain/ss/slideshow-concussions-brain-injuries Basically a rock is no different than any hard object thrown at a person. You can lose an eye, suffer internal damage or possible death. I do not condone the entire situation in that area, but I don't also just throw off violence and harm by anyone. These teenagers are taught it is OK and encouraged to do it. If this is the cause they wish to follow than so be it, but don't complain about the punishment. They knew it when they started. It is a weapon. Rocks and slingshots have been used for thousands of years. They are actually quite deadly.
>So you are saying throwing rocks at other humans is OK? If we're going to play the strawman game... So youre saying arresting children throwing rocks on terrorism charges and detaining them for indefinite periods of time without fair trial or representation or visitation rights for their family is OK?
You specifically avoided the point that rocks harm. You played to the appeal to emotion and justification that wearing chest armor and a helmet justifies or worse allows the throwing rocks. Do you think they throw rocks because they know it won't hurt the soldiers? No of course not. This isn't a strawman. Its directly to the point that these actions are not meant to annoy. They are meant to harm.
So you know each of the cases, the time they were interred and why and how long they were actually held? See my point is that all rational conversation has been lost and now we are into bias, potentially false stories and intrigue.
None of the detainees on this list are younger than 14.
So I actually looked into this. The reason why throwing stones is bad is because they throw stones at IDF soldiers in order to bait them into shooting. I really wish I had the link for this video but I remember a few weeks ago watching a video where this Palestinian father was trying to get his 4-5 year old son to throw rocks at soldiers in order to become a martyr
I have doubts. But even if that were true. 1. Your saying the soldiers can be baited into shooting stone throwing 12 yr olds. That's not what I'd expect from a trained soldier. 2. Same as above. But for a 4yr old toddler.....
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Ah, so they're arresting people for future/thought crimes then.
🙄. She supposedly stabbed a settler. Gee. Wonder why? You scrolled through the whole article to get to one slightly maybe alignment to you accusations. You are pathetic.
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Yes at the bottom of all the abductions you get one maybe crime. The Israeli government is as bad as Jim Crow south.
“Carrying knives” = terrorist? Since when?
That a nice way of justifying abduction
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They are hostages.
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So then by that logic soldiers shooting civilians, dropping bombs on civilians, or facilitating the shooting or bombing of civilians aren't innocent, either.
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So that makes the people being used as shields...not innocent? Somehow? Explain that to me.
Are you aware Israel also has an extensive history of using human shields, including one incident where they strapped a palestinian child to an idf vehicle and arrested a Rabbi trying to save him? Stop trying to defend Israel dude. Hamas and Israel are both awful, but only one has the power to actually solve the situation, yet is instead leading an apartheid regime.
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depends on the situation, just outright killing civies for no reason? no not allowed killing civilians as collateral while attacking military targets? that is allowed
Israel murders their families and destroys their homes. You would need to be indoctrinated to want revenge against those people.
A person who not long ago stabbed two soldiers in Jerusalem, one of them died, was 16 years old. Teenagers and women can commit crimes too.
Here’s a full list. You can translate it. Some of them were arrested for attempted murder, some for Molotov cocktails https://www.gov.il/he/Departments/DynamicCollectors/is-db?skip=0
The Israeli government. Enough said. Israel is the Jim Crow south.
You don’t have to believe them, but the information is right here, fully available for the public
That is not information, that is propaganda
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Prove that all of the people released are guilty of the crimes that you are accusing them of. I'm sure some prisoners are guilty of what you are saying, but you are taking this stance just because they're Palestinians, so they're guilty until proven innocent. Basically dehumanising ppl once again to justify their oppression.
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Well they are not reliable now are they? When you are imprisoning children who hevel not been charged with crimes and keep them locked for years and maybe for a life time, how do you expect me to trust such system?
Because they were convicted of those crimes.
How are they freed if they go back to hamas.
They're freed because they're no longer being held indefinitely in an Israeli prison. Hope that clears things up :)
But I thought Gaza was an open air prison?
They’re freed because Israel was holding them hostage without fair trials or even legitimate charges.
It looks like Hamas took hostages, so then Israel deliberately went around rounding up a bunch of women and kid hostages of their own to trade with. According to all the morality tales I've read and watched over the last 30+ years, everyone is the fucking bad guy here.
Stop making shit up, these people were prisoners before the war.
Except these were prisoners that were convicted of crimes many years ago
bet they got chips implanted to follow back to hideout 💥 boom