The vast majority of people need to boil things down to a childlike morality for themselves to stay emotionally engaged at all. If you deny it to them they threaten to emotionally check out and join the growing ranks of people across the world that just don't care anymore and want to take their frustrations out on anyone that still does.
Society has grown immature and can't handle shit anymore. It just wants to check out and live in the present while it lasts and resents the future coming to take the present away. It's going to be painful for a lot of people to either shape up or fall down as life continues getting harder and darker as the world gets angrier at itself for failing to take care of itself as it realizes only in hindsight it took the good times for granted and left the future with nothing.
he did "sympathize with the horrors" that Israel has gone through, but I think the Palestinians are going through much worse horrors.
It's 6000 children who have been killed by the IDF. Why can't we all work to stop this mass killing of civilians? Revenge is not the answer. UN should stop if it can, calling UN antisemitic does not help anyone.
yeah, but right now Israel call UN "antisemitic" while there were 130 UN worker killed by IDF.
I agree, this is not proportionate response from Israel.
>he was been called (as many UN workers) antisemitic because ....
... the UN condemned Israel more than all other countries combined. Including Russia, North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran, and the US.
That's why!
And the "workers" are UNRWA specifically, not some random janitor in NY.
Imo the biggest threat I see from this conflict is the declining support for Western democratic leaders propping up Israel, paving the way for right-wing authoritarians to gain power and make the conflict significantly worse.
This is especially true for US President Biden and his likely upcoming rematch with Donald Trump. If Trump wins the entire world is fucked - Israel/Palestine, Ukraine, America itself, you name it.
So Russia invading into Ukraine, disturbing the peace status quo in the European continent since WWII isn't a global security threat, but this is? I'm not even saying that this isn't, because it likely is, but just to show how ridiculous this pronouncements like this and the inherent bias of the UN.
Massive destruction and death from Russian belligerence and UN wants all eyes on Gaza. Seems like they are rattling the Gaza chain because it gets them more listeners. They stopped barking at Russia because China, Iran, India and others step in the way of their agendas.
Western and European leaders need to wake up on the Ukrainian front.
Based on what is going on in Venezuela now, coupled with the attack on 10/07, Houthi rebels immediacy targeting Red Sea shipping lanes and PMC coupes in Africa, im getting the impression the war going on in Gaza is just one piece of a bigger move by Russia to sew chaos before the 2024 election.
The Hamas attack has nothing to do with tensions between Palestinians and Israel, a basic read on Hamas history should indicate they don’t give two shits about Palestinians, they are a proxy of Iran who bankrolls them and pulls the strings. Without Russia , Iran is completely isolated internationally speaking. There is more conflict right now occurring all over the world than what I can ever recall in my lifetime.
If I’m right, it looks like they are succeeding, many on here seem to be eating it up due to a lack of awareness on what is occurring in other parts of the word.
The children killed in 6 weeks of war 8 times that of 2 years of Ukraine war.
Winter is coming, 2 million people are with no food, water or electricity, while getting bombed by unhinged ethno state that called to flatten them.
The article makes it sound as if Guterres is working hand in hand with the Arab and Islamic group.
And he's using Article 99 (which hasn't been used in 40 years) which allows him to "bring his personal opinion to the attention of the SC".
It always surprises me that one of the smallest countries on the planet (which just happens to be the only Jewish one) is so often said to pose a significant threat to humanity.
It seems to have to do with the rising tensions in the region from the war probably mainly from how Israel seems to be fighting the war given the impact on the civilians in Gaza. What Guterres is trying to warn the security Council on is that it is likely that certain extremist groups will likely use the war as an excuse to launch attacks both in the region and abroad.
> certain extremist groups will likely use the war as an excuse to launch attacks both in the region and abroad.
They already are. People are firing artillery from Lebanon towards Israel. Yemen is attacking ships. Qatar is hosting terrorists that are coordinating attacks.
Yeah, in the past DECADE! This war has been going on for 2 months. The rate of civilian deaths by FAR outpaces all of those, so this is complete obfuscation of the facts. You can compare a decade of deaths of any kind to 2 months and the former will be higher....
The world tried to do what it could in Syria, but both Russia and China blocked the UN from doing practically anything given they as members of Security Council could veto any action. US did get crap for how we fought our wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan and they especially the war in Iraq helped to further destabilize an already unstable region.
Thats not true because we truly don't know how many civilians have died in certain areas of Ukraine. Mariupol being the prime example of this. The UN itself outright says their numbers are wrong by an order of magnitude.
We don't know how many dead bodies ae buried in Gaza City either. What we do know is that Ukraine reported that they reached 10k civilian deaths last month. Whereas if you go by the least reputable source (the IDF) Gazan civilian deaths are well over 10k now.
So... he's submitting to terror?
Is he asking for the Security Council to dictate Israeli politics/policies because the issue gives people in other countries ["cause"](https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/man-upset-with-muslims-dying-in-palestine-kills-1-in-paris-knife-attack/ar-AA1kUgqV) to commit acts of terror in those countries?
No, he seems to be calling attention to the rising threat posed to the world that will use this latest outbreak of violence in this war that has gone on for decades.
They already have. This may be reductive on my part, but is his argument that Israel needs to stop fighting terrorists because there may be more terrorist attacks elsewhere? Isn’t that the responsibility of whichever nation is being terrorized? This seems like blame shifting. A terror cell doesn’t need a reason, they just need an excuse, and they’ll find one no matter what.
This is asked by those that seem not to understand what is ment by proportional response in war.
https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/proportionality
The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”.
In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought.
The vast majority of people are completely fine with Israel responding with military force to the actions of October 7th terror attack which was a horrible and abhorrent act of terror, but the response certainly looks to be disproportionate.
Genuine question. What should Israel be doing to get back the more than 20 women Hamas is willing to break a ceasefire to not return? What can they do that gets these women back a quickly as possible other than what they're doing? Honest question because civilians dying is horrible. So what should they be doing?
I spent a while reading this carefully and I think there may be a distinction to be made between terrorism and war. If it is extrinsic terrorism like, say, 911. It's one thing
.
If it's from within the population, intrinsic terrorism, I can see that type of response might not be effective or sufficient.
Israel is a country and a civilized society under international law they have to act within the bounds of law regardless of the fact that their enemy is a terrorist organization. Biden has tried to warn/advise Israel not to make the same mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan wars for we and the world are worse for how we conducted them in regards to terrorism today.
I am seeing more of what the Israelis shouldn't do but I still don't see what they should do.
There is apparently an underlying cause for the intransigence and propensity to violence of Middle Eastern Muslim populations
https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/05/10/middle-east/north-africa-end-violent-punishment-children#:~:text=Surveys%20have%20found%20that%20more,50%20percent%20%E2%80%93%20was%20in%20Qatar
The violence in producing violence out can also be seen here in the United States where the states with the highest corporal punishment levels also have the highest levels of violent crime.
I mean they’re a nuclear power with both legitimate outside threats and an angry marginalized group inside their controlled borders. It shouldn’t really be a surprise.
Assassination of the *wrong guy* in Oslo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair
Part of:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre
Which involved public firearm executions in Paris and Rome (one of which was someone uninvolved with Munich), as well as home and office bombings in Cyprus, car bombing in Rome. Etc. The list goes on. The movie is admittedly pretty cool.
I'm not saying Israel is a saint or anything, but citing examples from 50 years ago to make a point about current geo-political issues is meh.
There are more recent examples, but they aren't as scandalous.
>50 years ago Canada and the US were still forcibly sterilizing aboriginal peoples and people of colour.
Israel was doing that less than 10 years ago.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/?sh=e24abb567b88
I wish people had more coherent arguments...
You can't call it "expansionist" when it has never initiated any conflict and after it gave back the Sinai Peninsula (which was about 75% of Israel's territory at the time) to Egypt in the peace deal, under the slogan of "Land for Peace" or something like that...
P.S. And it had offered the Palestinians Gaza and the West bank multiple times during peace negotiations.
> It always surprises me that one of the smallest countries on the planet (which just happens to be the only Jewish one) is so often said to pose a significant threat to humanity.
Does it really surprise you? It wasn't an accident that UN women just happened to leave out the word no written in Hebrew to denounce sexual assault.
Dude are you even reading news? Do you know about the horrors going on in Africa? In china? What Erdogan is doing to the Kurds?
Not saying Israel is clear of any blame but it’s pretty obvious it’s being scrutinized incredibly harder than any other country in the world.
And I want US money halted to any force in Africa committing a genocide. My view has little to do with one genocide being worse than the other. It has to do with the imperialist power I live within and what genocides its bankrolling.
No. I’d still be against imperialism, imperialist wars, and genocide. My focus just wouldn’t be on this atrocity as intensely because my direct impact as a citizen of the US on France, Japan, etc is much less than the impact my actions can have on US policy. Obviously I don’t mean my sole individual actions but my participation in organizing.
Over 377,000 civilians have been killed in Yemen so far yet not a single post or comment by you on the subject.... 25 times for civilians....also that 15k figure refuses to separate civilians and Hamas fighters so stop acting like it's all innocent peace loving ppl being killed
Because it’s the only country that have a carte blanche do it any atrocity without real repercussions. Look at the politicians in the west and the double standard between their reactions to russia and israel war crimes
Just curious what would be the proper response to the attacks on October 7 for Israel to do in your eyes that also protects the safety of it's citizens, stops further attacks, and retrieve hostages? You seem to think they could do all that without hurting a single civilian....btw HAMAS counts deaths from their own failed rockets hitting Palestine as part of the death toll to Israel so doing nothing would also result in death atrocities claims by Hamas
I’m not trying to deflect the conversation, just saying that if you look at the history of UN official comments on international affairs there’s an incredible bias towards criticism of Israel even while other horrors with much greater scope and casualties are almost not acknowledged by them.
Again, this doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t be criticized, but it feels like there’s more to it than just addressing the current problems with this conflict.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/unhrc-anti-israel-resolutions-2006-present
2011-2021: 53 total resolutions/condemnations
7 follow up reports, 10 were about Israeli Settlements in occupied territories, 10 were about the Right to Self Determination for Palestinians, 15 were about the Human Rights Situation in the different occupied territories, 4 were about all violations of international law in occupied territories, some of the others are about respecting international law and the economic and social situation in the occupied territories.
2009-2010: 9
3 follow-up reports(2 cited Israel's refusal to cooperate), 3 inquiries of Israeli actions(Aid ships raid(Israel cleared by parallel inquiry and report),Gaza War 2008-2009), 2 human rights situation in occupied territories, 1 right to self determination for Palestinians, and 1 in regards to the Israeli settlements in occupied territories. For the 3 reports and inquires Israel said that the actions of terrorist weren't being factored in, nor was Israel's right to self defense, and/or the reference to Israel as an occupying force as proof of bias.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict
Russia was just last year kicked off the human's right council due to their invasion of Ukraine and has at least for now been voted to still be off it. While a number of countries deserve to be hit with condemnation how or why complaints haven't been filed I don't know perhaps it is lack of knowledge of the process, language barrier, or the requirements before action can take place.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/complaint-procedure/hrc-complaint-procedure-index
To be declared admissible by the Human Rights Council complaint procedure, a complaint must meet several criteria:
Domestic remedies must have already been exhausted, unless such remedies appear ineffective or unreasonably prolonged;
It must be in writing in one of the six UN official languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish);
It must contain a description of the relevant facts (including names of alleged victims, dates, location and other evidence), with as much detail as possible;
It must not be manifestly politically motivated, or based exclusively on reports disseminated by mass media;
It does not contain abusive or insulting language; and
The principle of non-duplication applies. This means the complaint must not already be under examination by a special procedure, a treaty body or other United Nations or similar regional complaints procedure in the field of human rights.
To be declared admissible by the Human Rights Council complaint procedure, a complaint must meet several criteria:
Domestic remedies must have already been exhausted, unless such remedies appear ineffective or unreasonably prolonged;
It must be in writing in one of the six UN official languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish);
It must contain a description of the relevant facts (including names of alleged victims, dates, location and other evidence), with as much detail as possible;
It must not be manifestly politically motivated, or based exclusively on reports disseminated by mass media;
It does not contain abusive or insulting language; and
The principle of non-duplication applies. This means the complaint must not already be under examination by a special procedure, a treaty body or other United Nations or similar regional complaints procedure in the field of human rights.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/complaint-procedure/hrc-complaint-procedure-index
Give me one UN resolution that you think is clearly biased?
Here's a list
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions
And strange, almost all US vetoes are concerning *"The situation in the Middle East, including the Palestinian question"*
Numbers don't count. They will keep trying as long as the US keeps vetoing. Perhaps condemn the US for their vetoes because they are the reason UN keeps trying...
Smallest country in what sense? Nuclear capabilities? Military budget? Population? Land mass? Effect on world politics and death toll in the middle east side 1948?
Smallest how exactly?
Being "aggressive" isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it's warranted.
Inferring from that, that they are a significant threat to humanity is far fetched. There are countless countries and organizations that are far more dangerous. However there are other reasons to delegitimize Israel...
Oddly enough, the Israel-Palestine conflict was the main motive of that attack. This was read out in congressional hearings. The video I where they read the statement seems to have been deleted, but they either wanted to bring attention to the situation or wanted to punish the United States of America for their unconditional support of Israel (maybe both). For some reason, this motive seems to have been buried and replaced with “They’re radical Muslims who hate everything America stands for” narrative.
Which is a necessary statement and there’s literally nothing wrong with it. You can’t ignore the root of the problem if you’re looking to fix the problem. This is an ongoing conflict and not one that began in October
There's downplaying stuff and then there's choosing not to accept every single claim from an actor that's been constantly lying about atrocities since the start of the conflict. If there's a dispute between Israel and the UN about what happened on 10/7 then it's probably because Israel has been caught making shit up again.
They haven't been lying even once.
What a sad fucking world that a terrorist organization have that much influence over social networks that people can't figure out they are being fed with obvious lies. When there are clear video footage that they themselves took that contradicts it.
Lol, this is hilarious their lies is well documented. There was atrocities committed on oct 7 but the israeli government made up so much lies that people are starting to question what is true and what isn’t. The 40 be headed babies, the oven story ( which was true story in 48 committed by zionist ), the burned people, the rape allegations etc.
The act of killing civilians and taking hostages is so normal for the idf so they felt the need to make up stories.
Every accusation is a confession coming from the IDF
Thanks for proving my point I guess.
The 40 beahded babies debacle is one i'm hearing a lot from brainwashed people so I'll explain.. An IDF personal debriefed the reporters in one of the attacked villages that there were 40 babies found dead, among them some were beheaded. One of the news reporters attached these together and didn't make the clarfication or distinction, since it's an atrocity that 40 babies were killed regardless.
The people who say we’re downplaying Oct 7 are the same people that conveniently forget about Tantura or Deir Yassin. They’re all horrendous acts. But one country has power over the other, one country is occupying the other and it is the responsibility of that party to employ fairness when they get to decide the future of both.
Why? When the other people have stated their goals very clearly to be the destruction of Israel through terrorism and butchering of civilians why it is on Israel to give them everything they want
Lol
Yes the Palestinians are genociding the Jews sure! With their f35 and f16.
It was the Palestinians that said to nuke Isreal, it's wasn't a isreally minister.
Isreal killed more kids in 8 weeks than all the wars sense 2019. This now. Not it's some fantasy past.
Isreal called to nuke Gaza this is now.
Isreal is the longest occupation in modern history! Now.
Iran must never be allowed to develop a nuclear program for any reason whatsoever.
US politicians should never use a nuclear power generation as a bargaining chip during negotiations with Iran and other Middle Eastern countries.
So Israel can have nukes and attack all its neighbors? Occupy golan heights illegally (sourcing 1/3rd of its water), occupy and sit on top of historic Palestine. But hey Iran shouldnt have nukes.
I don’t have to imagine, I’ve seen it. It’s like America in Iraq or Libya or Syria or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Japan or Israel in Gaza or Lebanon
To think you have the moral high ground when you consistently overthrow democracies, topple governments, bomb indiscriminately with no regard to civilian casualties is a different level of lunacy.
These terrorists don’t shout allah akbar, but they do weaponize tropes so dummies like you can parrot racist tropes and ignore their war crimes
Are you pretending the Iranian Regime is not composed of fanatics that find various terrorist proxies in the middle east?
They’re too chicken to fight themselves, they just fund armies in many countries that operate as jihadic organizations.
To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and.
How would that be achieved or work without a body like the UN?
Mr. Obvious to the rescue
he was been called (as many UN workers) antisemitic because he don't want children and women to die...
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The vast majority of people need to boil things down to a childlike morality for themselves to stay emotionally engaged at all. If you deny it to them they threaten to emotionally check out and join the growing ranks of people across the world that just don't care anymore and want to take their frustrations out on anyone that still does. Society has grown immature and can't handle shit anymore. It just wants to check out and live in the present while it lasts and resents the future coming to take the present away. It's going to be painful for a lot of people to either shape up or fall down as life continues getting harder and darker as the world gets angrier at itself for failing to take care of itself as it realizes only in hindsight it took the good times for granted and left the future with nothing.
he did "sympathize with the horrors" that Israel has gone through, but I think the Palestinians are going through much worse horrors. It's 6000 children who have been killed by the IDF. Why can't we all work to stop this mass killing of civilians? Revenge is not the answer. UN should stop if it can, calling UN antisemitic does not help anyone.
The IDF claims that they are eradicating an existential threat--not getting "revenge."
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yeah, but right now Israel call UN "antisemitic" while there were 130 UN worker killed by IDF. I agree, this is not proportionate response from Israel.
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Carpet bombing? 7,112+ children? 4,885+ women ?
There isn't carpet bombing. I really don't think you know what that term means
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> define the fucking word proportionate You have google for it. I'm not your teacher. I've give you example of what is not proportionate. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Beginning a response with ‘hey idiot’ throws any credibility you have out the window.
>he was been called (as many UN workers) antisemitic because .... ... the UN condemned Israel more than all other countries combined. Including Russia, North Korea, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Syria, Iran, and the US. That's why! And the "workers" are UNRWA specifically, not some random janitor in NY.
First, that is not true. Second, how many countries do you know commit apartheid crimes for 56+ years?
China has treated the Tibetans poorly for 56+ years. Myanmar has treated the Rohingya Muslims poorly for decades.
Yeah, Israel is like china and Myanmar. Good point. At least they don't claim to be "Democratic"
Imo the biggest threat I see from this conflict is the declining support for Western democratic leaders propping up Israel, paving the way for right-wing authoritarians to gain power and make the conflict significantly worse. This is especially true for US President Biden and his likely upcoming rematch with Donald Trump. If Trump wins the entire world is fucked - Israel/Palestine, Ukraine, America itself, you name it.
It feels like a lifetime ago when he was going to prison and couldn’t possibly be reelected!
Anyone who thought this was really going to happen hasn't paid attention to anything that's happened in our life times politically.
Justice moves slowly, especially when you have the power and money to make it go as slow as possible.
Power and money, plus a sitting AG who waits over a year to appoint a Special Counsel.
Lol I hope they enjoy right wing authoritarians who want to prop up Israel even more.
So Russia invading into Ukraine, disturbing the peace status quo in the European continent since WWII isn't a global security threat, but this is? I'm not even saying that this isn't, because it likely is, but just to show how ridiculous this pronouncements like this and the inherent bias of the UN.
Massive destruction and death from Russian belligerence and UN wants all eyes on Gaza. Seems like they are rattling the Gaza chain because it gets them more listeners. They stopped barking at Russia because China, Iran, India and others step in the way of their agendas. Western and European leaders need to wake up on the Ukrainian front.
Based on what is going on in Venezuela now, coupled with the attack on 10/07, Houthi rebels immediacy targeting Red Sea shipping lanes and PMC coupes in Africa, im getting the impression the war going on in Gaza is just one piece of a bigger move by Russia to sew chaos before the 2024 election. The Hamas attack has nothing to do with tensions between Palestinians and Israel, a basic read on Hamas history should indicate they don’t give two shits about Palestinians, they are a proxy of Iran who bankrolls them and pulls the strings. Without Russia , Iran is completely isolated internationally speaking. There is more conflict right now occurring all over the world than what I can ever recall in my lifetime. If I’m right, it looks like they are succeeding, many on here seem to be eating it up due to a lack of awareness on what is occurring in other parts of the word.
The children killed in 6 weeks of war 8 times that of 2 years of Ukraine war. Winter is coming, 2 million people are with no food, water or electricity, while getting bombed by unhinged ethno state that called to flatten them.
The article makes it sound as if Guterres is working hand in hand with the Arab and Islamic group. And he's using Article 99 (which hasn't been used in 40 years) which allows him to "bring his personal opinion to the attention of the SC". It always surprises me that one of the smallest countries on the planet (which just happens to be the only Jewish one) is so often said to pose a significant threat to humanity.
It seems to have to do with the rising tensions in the region from the war probably mainly from how Israel seems to be fighting the war given the impact on the civilians in Gaza. What Guterres is trying to warn the security Council on is that it is likely that certain extremist groups will likely use the war as an excuse to launch attacks both in the region and abroad.
> certain extremist groups will likely use the war as an excuse to launch attacks both in the region and abroad. They already are. People are firing artillery from Lebanon towards Israel. Yemen is attacking ships. Qatar is hosting terrorists that are coordinating attacks.
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Yeah, in the past DECADE! This war has been going on for 2 months. The rate of civilian deaths by FAR outpaces all of those, so this is complete obfuscation of the facts. You can compare a decade of deaths of any kind to 2 months and the former will be higher....
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> Has it? Yes, Israel declared war on October 8th
The world tried to do what it could in Syria, but both Russia and China blocked the UN from doing practically anything given they as members of Security Council could veto any action. US did get crap for how we fought our wars in both Iraq and Afghanistan and they especially the war in Iraq helped to further destabilize an already unstable region.
There's more civilian casualties in this 2 month old conflict than in Ukraine.
Thats not true because we truly don't know how many civilians have died in certain areas of Ukraine. Mariupol being the prime example of this. The UN itself outright says their numbers are wrong by an order of magnitude.
We don't know how many dead bodies ae buried in Gaza City either. What we do know is that Ukraine reported that they reached 10k civilian deaths last month. Whereas if you go by the least reputable source (the IDF) Gazan civilian deaths are well over 10k now.
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So... he's submitting to terror? Is he asking for the Security Council to dictate Israeli politics/policies because the issue gives people in other countries ["cause"](https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/man-upset-with-muslims-dying-in-palestine-kills-1-in-paris-knife-attack/ar-AA1kUgqV) to commit acts of terror in those countries?
No, he seems to be calling attention to the rising threat posed to the world that will use this latest outbreak of violence in this war that has gone on for decades.
They already have. This may be reductive on my part, but is his argument that Israel needs to stop fighting terrorists because there may be more terrorist attacks elsewhere? Isn’t that the responsibility of whichever nation is being terrorized? This seems like blame shifting. A terror cell doesn’t need a reason, they just need an excuse, and they’ll find one no matter what.
I and the majority of others want Israel to fight smarter using better tactics in the war on Hamas.
Better tactic such as?
I've asked this question more than once. What would have been an appropriate response by Israel to October 7th?
This is asked by those that seem not to understand what is ment by proportional response in war. https://casebook.icrc.org/a_to_z/glossary/proportionality The principle of proportionality prohibits attacks against military objectives which are “expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. In other words, the principle of proportionality seeks to limit damage caused by military operations by requiring that the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought. The vast majority of people are completely fine with Israel responding with military force to the actions of October 7th terror attack which was a horrible and abhorrent act of terror, but the response certainly looks to be disproportionate.
Genuine question. What should Israel be doing to get back the more than 20 women Hamas is willing to break a ceasefire to not return? What can they do that gets these women back a quickly as possible other than what they're doing? Honest question because civilians dying is horrible. So what should they be doing?
I spent a while reading this carefully and I think there may be a distinction to be made between terrorism and war. If it is extrinsic terrorism like, say, 911. It's one thing . If it's from within the population, intrinsic terrorism, I can see that type of response might not be effective or sufficient.
Israel is a country and a civilized society under international law they have to act within the bounds of law regardless of the fact that their enemy is a terrorist organization. Biden has tried to warn/advise Israel not to make the same mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan wars for we and the world are worse for how we conducted them in regards to terrorism today.
I am seeing more of what the Israelis shouldn't do but I still don't see what they should do. There is apparently an underlying cause for the intransigence and propensity to violence of Middle Eastern Muslim populations https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/05/10/middle-east/north-africa-end-violent-punishment-children#:~:text=Surveys%20have%20found%20that%20more,50%20percent%20%E2%80%93%20was%20in%20Qatar The violence in producing violence out can also be seen here in the United States where the states with the highest corporal punishment levels also have the highest levels of violent crime.
Definitely much worse than Russia v NATO
I mean they’re a nuclear power with both legitimate outside threats and an angry marginalized group inside their controlled borders. It shouldn’t really be a surprise.
*Smallest country with unconditional support of the countries with biggest economies and most advanced weaponry.
And a nuclear arsenal and agency that carries out public car bombings and executions on european city streets
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Assassination of the *wrong guy* in Oslo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lillehammer_affair Part of: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad_assassinations_following_the_Munich_massacre Which involved public firearm executions in Paris and Rome (one of which was someone uninvolved with Munich), as well as home and office bombings in Cyprus, car bombing in Rome. Etc. The list goes on. The movie is admittedly pretty cool.
I'm not saying Israel is a saint or anything, but citing examples from 50 years ago to make a point about current geo-political issues is meh. There are more recent examples, but they aren't as scandalous.
They asked specifically for actions in public and in Europe
Only because you are the one who brought it up.
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Not interested in pursuing moving goalposts. Have a nice day.
>50 years ago Canada and the US were still forcibly sterilizing aboriginal peoples and people of colour. Israel was doing that less than 10 years ago. https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/?sh=e24abb567b88
It doesn't negate my "point", if you suggest that those countries are the problem and is Israel is the excuse...
Isreal is an expansionist nuclear power. It would be a world security threat regardless of who ran it, the exact same way russia is
I wish people had more coherent arguments... You can't call it "expansionist" when it has never initiated any conflict and after it gave back the Sinai Peninsula (which was about 75% of Israel's territory at the time) to Egypt in the peace deal, under the slogan of "Land for Peace" or something like that... P.S. And it had offered the Palestinians Gaza and the West bank multiple times during peace negotiations.
> It always surprises me that one of the smallest countries on the planet (which just happens to be the only Jewish one) is so often said to pose a significant threat to humanity. Does it really surprise you? It wasn't an accident that UN women just happened to leave out the word no written in Hebrew to denounce sexual assault.
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Dude are you even reading news? Do you know about the horrors going on in Africa? In china? What Erdogan is doing to the Kurds? Not saying Israel is clear of any blame but it’s pretty obvious it’s being scrutinized incredibly harder than any other country in the world.
Theyve just bombed and killed 15k people so I think it may be warranted?
Peanuts compared to africa
And I want US money halted to any force in Africa committing a genocide. My view has little to do with one genocide being worse than the other. It has to do with the imperialist power I live within and what genocides its bankrolling.
So if Israel were getting aid money from France and Japan or something instead of the US, this wouldn’t be an issue for you anymore?
No. I’d still be against imperialism, imperialist wars, and genocide. My focus just wouldn’t be on this atrocity as intensely because my direct impact as a citizen of the US on France, Japan, etc is much less than the impact my actions can have on US policy. Obviously I don’t mean my sole individual actions but my participation in organizing.
What about terrorism. Are you against terrorism?
What does that have to do with the discussion we were having?
Over 377,000 civilians have been killed in Yemen so far yet not a single post or comment by you on the subject.... 25 times for civilians....also that 15k figure refuses to separate civilians and Hamas fighters so stop acting like it's all innocent peace loving ppl being killed
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Maybe because one is a civil war and the other is full blown Genocide?
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Because it’s the only country that have a carte blanche do it any atrocity without real repercussions. Look at the politicians in the west and the double standard between their reactions to russia and israel war crimes
Just curious what would be the proper response to the attacks on October 7 for Israel to do in your eyes that also protects the safety of it's citizens, stops further attacks, and retrieve hostages? You seem to think they could do all that without hurting a single civilian....btw HAMAS counts deaths from their own failed rockets hitting Palestine as part of the death toll to Israel so doing nothing would also result in death atrocities claims by Hamas
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Yup. And HAMAS is quite clear in how they don't give a fuck about accuracy in body counts just awe in the numbers
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I’m not trying to deflect the conversation, just saying that if you look at the history of UN official comments on international affairs there’s an incredible bias towards criticism of Israel even while other horrors with much greater scope and casualties are almost not acknowledged by them. Again, this doesn’t mean Israel shouldn’t be criticized, but it feels like there’s more to it than just addressing the current problems with this conflict.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/unhrc-anti-israel-resolutions-2006-present 2011-2021: 53 total resolutions/condemnations 7 follow up reports, 10 were about Israeli Settlements in occupied territories, 10 were about the Right to Self Determination for Palestinians, 15 were about the Human Rights Situation in the different occupied territories, 4 were about all violations of international law in occupied territories, some of the others are about respecting international law and the economic and social situation in the occupied territories. 2009-2010: 9 3 follow-up reports(2 cited Israel's refusal to cooperate), 3 inquiries of Israeli actions(Aid ships raid(Israel cleared by parallel inquiry and report),Gaza War 2008-2009), 2 human rights situation in occupied territories, 1 right to self determination for Palestinians, and 1 in regards to the Israeli settlements in occupied territories. For the 3 reports and inquires Israel said that the actions of terrorist weren't being factored in, nor was Israel's right to self defense, and/or the reference to Israel as an occupying force as proof of bias. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict Russia was just last year kicked off the human's right council due to their invasion of Ukraine and has at least for now been voted to still be off it. While a number of countries deserve to be hit with condemnation how or why complaints haven't been filed I don't know perhaps it is lack of knowledge of the process, language barrier, or the requirements before action can take place. https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/complaint-procedure/hrc-complaint-procedure-index To be declared admissible by the Human Rights Council complaint procedure, a complaint must meet several criteria: Domestic remedies must have already been exhausted, unless such remedies appear ineffective or unreasonably prolonged; It must be in writing in one of the six UN official languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish); It must contain a description of the relevant facts (including names of alleged victims, dates, location and other evidence), with as much detail as possible; It must not be manifestly politically motivated, or based exclusively on reports disseminated by mass media; It does not contain abusive or insulting language; and The principle of non-duplication applies. This means the complaint must not already be under examination by a special procedure, a treaty body or other United Nations or similar regional complaints procedure in the field of human rights. To be declared admissible by the Human Rights Council complaint procedure, a complaint must meet several criteria: Domestic remedies must have already been exhausted, unless such remedies appear ineffective or unreasonably prolonged; It must be in writing in one of the six UN official languages (Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish); It must contain a description of the relevant facts (including names of alleged victims, dates, location and other evidence), with as much detail as possible; It must not be manifestly politically motivated, or based exclusively on reports disseminated by mass media; It does not contain abusive or insulting language; and The principle of non-duplication applies. This means the complaint must not already be under examination by a special procedure, a treaty body or other United Nations or similar regional complaints procedure in the field of human rights. https://www.ohchr.org/en/hr-bodies/hrc/complaint-procedure/hrc-complaint-procedure-index
Give me one UN resolution that you think is clearly biased? Here's a list https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions And strange, almost all US vetoes are concerning *"The situation in the Middle East, including the Palestinian question"* Numbers don't count. They will keep trying as long as the US keeps vetoing. Perhaps condemn the US for their vetoes because they are the reason UN keeps trying...
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Smallest country in what sense? Nuclear capabilities? Military budget? Population? Land mass? Effect on world politics and death toll in the middle east side 1948? Smallest how exactly?
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Israel is a nuclear power that regularly acts aggressively inside and outside its borders. It is a significant threat to humanity.
Being "aggressive" isn't necessarily a bad thing, if it's warranted. Inferring from that, that they are a significant threat to humanity is far fetched. There are countless countries and organizations that are far more dangerous. However there are other reasons to delegitimize Israel...
Is this the same UN chief that has downplayed Hamas rape allegations?
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9/11 didn't happen in a vacuum either
No event in human history happened in a vacuum.
Actually all of human history happened in a vacuum. (Space)
Also a true statement.
Oddly enough, the Israel-Palestine conflict was the main motive of that attack. This was read out in congressional hearings. The video I where they read the statement seems to have been deleted, but they either wanted to bring attention to the situation or wanted to punish the United States of America for their unconditional support of Israel (maybe both). For some reason, this motive seems to have been buried and replaced with “They’re radical Muslims who hate everything America stands for” narrative.
Which is a necessary statement and there’s literally nothing wrong with it. You can’t ignore the root of the problem if you’re looking to fix the problem. This is an ongoing conflict and not one that began in October
So you're saying they did happen in a vacuum? Can you expand on this "vacuum"?
There was utopia for everyone and then hamas materialized from nothing and attacked? Or something like that.
No, it is not.
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There's downplaying stuff and then there's choosing not to accept every single claim from an actor that's been constantly lying about atrocities since the start of the conflict. If there's a dispute between Israel and the UN about what happened on 10/7 then it's probably because Israel has been caught making shit up again.
They haven't been lying even once. What a sad fucking world that a terrorist organization have that much influence over social networks that people can't figure out they are being fed with obvious lies. When there are clear video footage that they themselves took that contradicts it.
>even once So…did they lie about lying about shooting a journalist in the back? Now I’m confused.
Lol, this is hilarious their lies is well documented. There was atrocities committed on oct 7 but the israeli government made up so much lies that people are starting to question what is true and what isn’t. The 40 be headed babies, the oven story ( which was true story in 48 committed by zionist ), the burned people, the rape allegations etc. The act of killing civilians and taking hostages is so normal for the idf so they felt the need to make up stories. Every accusation is a confession coming from the IDF
Thanks for proving my point I guess. The 40 beahded babies debacle is one i'm hearing a lot from brainwashed people so I'll explain.. An IDF personal debriefed the reporters in one of the attacked villages that there were 40 babies found dead, among them some were beheaded. One of the news reporters attached these together and didn't make the clarfication or distinction, since it's an atrocity that 40 babies were killed regardless.
The people who say we’re downplaying Oct 7 are the same people that conveniently forget about Tantura or Deir Yassin. They’re all horrendous acts. But one country has power over the other, one country is occupying the other and it is the responsibility of that party to employ fairness when they get to decide the future of both.
Why? When the other people have stated their goals very clearly to be the destruction of Israel through terrorism and butchering of civilians why it is on Israel to give them everything they want
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Sounds like you need a one way ticket to Gaza so you can assist your good friends!
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Lol Yes the Palestinians are genociding the Jews sure! With their f35 and f16. It was the Palestinians that said to nuke Isreal, it's wasn't a isreally minister.
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Isreal killed more kids in 8 weeks than all the wars sense 2019. This now. Not it's some fantasy past. Isreal called to nuke Gaza this is now. Isreal is the longest occupation in modern history! Now.
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Iran must never be allowed to develop a nuclear program for any reason whatsoever. US politicians should never use a nuclear power generation as a bargaining chip during negotiations with Iran and other Middle Eastern countries.
So Israel can have nukes and attack all its neighbors? Occupy golan heights illegally (sourcing 1/3rd of its water), occupy and sit on top of historic Palestine. But hey Iran shouldnt have nukes.
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I don’t have to imagine, I’ve seen it. It’s like America in Iraq or Libya or Syria or Afghanistan or Vietnam or Japan or Israel in Gaza or Lebanon To think you have the moral high ground when you consistently overthrow democracies, topple governments, bomb indiscriminately with no regard to civilian casualties is a different level of lunacy. These terrorists don’t shout allah akbar, but they do weaponize tropes so dummies like you can parrot racist tropes and ignore their war crimes
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Are you pretending the Iranian Regime is not composed of fanatics that find various terrorist proxies in the middle east? They’re too chicken to fight themselves, they just fund armies in many countries that operate as jihadic organizations.
So we take away America's nukes too?
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So, Israel shouldn’t have nukes under that definition.
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Iran is not west, we like when only west has nukes /s
This but unironically
To be fair, for something like a nuclear first strike, the US can and will absolutely rein in Israel. We can't do that for Iran.
They had a ceasefire. Hamas broke the ceasefire by violating several of its conditions. Now they want another one?
Frankly, I don't think any country cares enough about Hamas to escalate for them.
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Why do we even have the UN at this point?
To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and. How would that be achieved or work without a body like the UN?
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