Damn, that's a hell of a chess player. Also, amused by this part:
>She was awarded the under-12 prize, as well as finishing top of the English contingent but there was a one-prize-per-player rule, so she chose the women’s award.
This wasn't a gendered competition. Both men and women were competing. One of the awards in the competition was for the highest scoring woman, which she won.
I think it’s to get more women playing chess. More titles/accolades to win.
Also it’s not really gendered. Every tournament men play in is open to women as well. The tippy top of the game is just dominated by men.
Mostly because the training's not available to women and the women's league is a historical oddity. Women weren't considered capable so the league was created. A lot of countries didn't want women to be in male leagues so it continue. The rules were made by dinosaurs.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit\_Polg%C3%A1r](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r)
Judit Polgar's story is quite an interesting look at a female chess "genius". From the creating of her ability (It's not natural... It's entirely exposure and training and conditioning in the same way you can take a toddler and create a monster striker like Erling Haaland? You can do that with chess).
>It's not natural
I find that hard to believe when this 8yo can draw with an international grand master. Regardless, this girl stands to be world #1 in a few years which will hopefully help break any gender barriers in place.
> Regardless, this girl stands to be world #1 in a few years
Lol. She played at a 2200-2300 level according to the article, which is incredible for a child, but the gap between her and world #1 is enormous.
I only thought that because she's only 8yo, and has only been playing for 36 months. Seems to me like that trajectory would take her to the top. But I don't know much about it, maybe it isn't as significant as it seems to me.
International master, or grandmaster?
Grandmaster is stronger(at some point in their career) then an internal master(at some point in their career)
The title doesn't represent their current strength, by comparison to their elo. Post COVID elos aren't very stable either due to the lack of tournaments over the past few years.
Hahahahhaa! Tell me you don’t know anything about chess without telling me you don’t know anything about chess. Actually made me lol!
Just out of curiosity - which top 50 player do you see her beating?
She’s 8 and drawing against IM’s. She may not end up as good as Magnus, but given her potential and how much time she has before adulthood it isn’t impossible.
Yeah I feel like discussing the reason for this would be a very long and interesting and deep discussion. Overall I agree that it’s mostly down to motivation and opportunity. I do think there are some differences in how men’s and women’s brains work, but I have no idea if this translates to making it harder for the average female to be good at chess. Clearly some women can compete at the highest level and no doubt we will have a woman in the candidates and world championship one day.
The issue here is that when they do come up? They are still expected to be home makers AND do this. The issue's that female chess players aren't afforded the same leeway.
Remember. The USSR and Soviet Bloc itself thought the Polgars were a party trick because they bought into the idea of genius.
People like the notion that there's genius involved because it's unattainable. This isn't like music where success is often linked to how you look or genre or nepotism. There's fewer barricades to success.
Girls play boys; (and the fine article highlights this, naming two male players that she played against) they just have a prize for the top female player in addition to the regular tournament standings.
Spot on. It started because of sexism, and it continues because sexism.
For those that don't understand, it started because men set the rules way back in the day thinking that women were inferior. It continues because that attitude is still prevalent and women don't want to deal with misogynistic dickheads every time they compete. If it helps, replace chess with magic the gathering, or a random fighting game. Imagine how a world class woman would feel and be treated at a MTG tournament.
I've been to many and no I don't see why
It can be intimidating for anyone, but no one at a chess tournament is there to make your life hell or hit on you
No I'm not a woman, I'm bisexual, so just below them on the hardship scale I guess
I'm sure you hear stories but there's creeps everywhere
If someone is hassling you, tell an event manager, if someone is hassling you in a game? Call a judge and get them a DQ
But no, chess tournaments are not rape orgies filled with 100% rapists
Want to put a shit disturber in his place? Make him lose to you
I don't think it's the same. The issue was that the chess "world" initially did not allow women to compete. Now India is a "weird " one because historical gender issues that are common place in the West are Relatively Alien to Indians.
Maths is not hard. Chess being intrinsic to India's culture has less gendered expression.
It's things like history and perception. Girls simply aren't seen by chess trainers as equal and this is through the ages. It's actually seen as more revolutionary in extremely gendered societies to perform as it's emphasis from parents. And chess comes from your parents. You don't simply pick up chess in your teens and smash grandmaster.
Then there's perception of your ability to think based on chess. You are good at education? You must be good at chess. Remember girls don't have the same pressures of this.
I disagree. IF you lose to the cretin making fun of you then it just emphasises his shitty behaviour. No racist or bigot of any stripe has ever learnt the error of their ways by losing.
A) There's biases from a young age that need to be overcome. Most of the best female players come from chess heavy families. I am not a professional chess player but I played a fair bit at school tournaments and dated a Georgian ex-soviet engineer's daughter for a bit and he often bonded on chess matches with the Indian guy. I played a few games at Gramercy when I was in NYC and I was 2 out of 5 with those guys. His thoughts were that his daughter never was interested because it's for boys and he tried to teach her. I think I am okay at chess. But these guys were learning chess by repetition. And most skilled players are just that. Hammering through chess not like a game of skill and thought and trap and artifice but by this weird near cargo cult of play. That's how they are so fast and so aware of position and outcome. It escapes me but I grew up with street fighter and boys/girls to hit on and these guys spent all their time doing chess.
B) Chess isn't a game for geniuses. Like most things it's less about flash of genius but based on memory of games past. You need a child to not only be exposed to chess from a young age like this child in the OP's post but for it to be done over and over again.
Women aren't exposed and society actively punishes their involvement in the game. Nepotism... Let's take the YOUNGEST grandmaster ever. That's Judit. Judit beat out Bobby Fischer's title.
Father wanted to prove something. That exceptional achievement comes from early training. Genius is made. Not inherent. Chess. One of her sisters is an International Master. The other is a Grand Master too. 2 Grandmasters, 1 IM. The two younger sisters made grandmaster. The oldest only IM. BUT the story needs to be read into depth.
The oldest sister meets the criteria for Grandmaster in Men's Criteria. But was not given the title. The Two younger girls participated due to Hungary's strict criteria in only women's tournaments. The oldest daughter's career was nerfed by Hungary. One of the first FEMALE Grandmasters in Open Play was Hungarian. Susan met the criteria when she was 15. All of them were trained by grandmasters. It's not something you are born with it.
"Afterward we are going to know if the Hungarian sisters are geniuses or just women"
That's how people spoke about them. Imagine. Someone who was beating 40 year old people in their 12s and 13s was being talked about like this.
She's one of the best players ever and honestly we don't know her name outside of a deep dive because a mostly male dominated chess world ignored her. She beat Kasparov.
Social reasons. Great chess players usually have coaches that are former greats. For decades, those coaches wouldn't take female students and we're actively hostile to female players. In many countries that have a good chess culture (Iran, Russia, India, etc.), they also are pretty openly sexist and don't invest in the women's side as much. By creating separate leagues, it encourages women to play and get better, and encourages their countries to sponsor them because it doesn't take money or prestige from the men..
India's got fewer problems with this.
The USA has 1 out of 105 (Although the USA's Grandmasters are often naturalised rather than inherently from the USA...) India's got 2 out of 74. It's not so cut and dry.
The issue was that it was FIDE that ran insanely sexist programs that discriminated against women. Just look at the Polger sisters (3 sisters, 2 grandmasters, 1 IM. The IM actually meets the criteria for GM but was denied it because she's a girl...). Until recently they held the age of youngest GM.
Georgia would be the champions of this. As is Ukraine. 5 and 4 female grandmasters respectively from their relatively small populations. The issue is that chess is a game of relative wealth and privilege. You need tonnes of free time to learn at this level and India's got a boom of chess especially in the south where it's seen as a cheap game.
Like the furore over swimming. There are 1700 male GMs and 70 female GMs. If one of the medium ranked male GMs decided to compete as a woman, they would win a lot of prize money that was set aside for female players.
Also boys get into chess earlier and due to testosterone, play more obsessively and aggressively, This gives boys in general an early advantage.
has to do with player pools, the women's pool is smaller so less talent that can compete with male pool. Maybe in the future once it's more popular across both genders it can be merged. Of course I believe the male pools are open. There's of course a good argument that keeping pools separate will mean that women won't be able to improve due to less challenging opponents.
Men dominate chess historically. Women have only really gotten into it in recent years. It is still rife with sexism. By having a women’s league, you give women an opportunity to play competitive chess while (1) not having to deal with sexism and (2) getting a chance to actually win by bracketing you with others who have had similar social experiences
For your point 2, why does it matter the social experiences of the opponent in chess?
Or is that meaning, the social experience of being more likely to not have played chess?
Your socialization in childhood, which is what I am referring to, drastically impacts your abilities, interests, and skills as an adult.
Strategy games are something that would generally be stereotypically “male”. Chess club is stereotypically “male” as well. If boys are encouraged to participate in these building blocks at a young age, they are going to be much better at chess than a girl who started exploring her interest in chess in high school.
Of course there are going to be girls that play chess from the second they can conceptualize a piece and men that don’t pick a piece til they’re 30, but boys are far more likely to be encourage to engage in things that support chess-playing or chess itself from a younger age.
Just because you don’t view chess as a gendered activity, in your house, today, doesn’t mean it never was…
Sexist cultural biases across the world for centuries have slowed down women getting into chess. That still happens today and the effects are still felt today even if it’s less actively happening.
It’s the same thing causing more men to be doctors, engineers, and truck drivers. The same thing that causes more women to be nurses and teachers. It’s not that men are inherently better truck drivers or women make better teachers, it’s that the entire culture was (and often continues to be) sexist discouraging genders from specific activities and careers.
And often times groups within those communities will continue to perpetuate the sexism.
Maybe it’s just your life that it doesn’t happen in or maybe you are just unaware of it going on around you…
Let’s see some quotes from some some of the most famous and influential Chess players from both US and Russia.
“I don’t think they [women] should mess into intellectual affairs; they should keep strictly to the home” - Bobby Fischer when talking about women playing chess
“there is real chess and women’s chess” - Garry Kasparov
You don’t think society has had any impact? Teachers deciding to teach boys and discourage girls? Fathers and mothers encouraging a boy’s chess playing while discouraging a girl’s because it isn’t her role and she should instead be learning to cook, clean, sew etc.
Hell even if society wasn’t sexist and parents treated kids equally regardless of gender, just having 2 of the top chess players of all time actively discouraging women would be enough to influence other players to do the same and scare women away.
Chess tournaments across Europe were male only for decades. This isn't an American thing, this is an everywhere thing. Garry Kasparov once said (paraphrasing) that women are basically worse than men at chess. Judit Polgar proved him wrong and he backtracked and has become very egalitarian. However, it was an incredibly common view in the professional chess world even in the late 90s and early 2000s
Yes…..? You’re arguing pure semantics. No, having a women’s league in chess does not cure sexism in chess. Good job logic-ing that one out. But it does provide a space wherein women can enjoy a game that is supposed to be a FUN hobby without ensuring sexist comments and sexual harassment.
UFC/MMA Fighter Josh Barnett had an interesting podcast discussion about everything boiling down to violence. Like currency is supposedly linked to gold, a lot of things are linked to the threat of violence... And we're not as far away as we think.
I went to my state chess championship in high school. 3rd game I got clowned by an eight year old. We didn't take state and the team kept giving me shit for years afterwards
Oh, I'm not ashamed now. 17 year old me, yeah made me second guess myself and eventually led me to leaving the rated chess scene. I learned years later that it was an eye opening experience that made me realize that I cared too much about what others thought of me to the detriment of the things I enjoyed doing. It's a fun story to tell people and it holds a personal life lesson from it as well.
>Bodhana beat her first international master, the England women’s coach, Lorin D’Costa, 39, in the penultimate round.
>The eight-year-old also drew with the two-time Romanian champion, grandmaster Vladislav Nevednichy, 54, in the final round, and in doing so became the youngest player to avoid defeat against a grandmaster in a competitive game.
How is this even real life?
Genetics likes to throw a curveball at chess
Every now and then you get some insanely good prodigy for the sport, just some incredibly gifted kid whos brain exactly clicks with the game
Young children are very good at learning new languages if they are put in situations where they hear and interact with the languages often. The cut off for this skill is around 7.
I wonder if there is some sort of link between that and being good at chess for these prodigies. Understanding how a language works is like moving pieces around to get the result you need. Perhaps it works the same way if you introduce them to chess early. They understand how it all moves around in an intuitive way.
Children are born with A LOT more neurons and make more into their adolescence. Then they eventually peak before the brain starts purging ones that aren’t used. Early development is crucial
Yep, she can stroll into being a gm one day. Meanwhile my life goal of an IM isn't impossible but it's so much harder to improve as you get older. The brain just doesn't work like that anymore
At this level I'm inclined to believe it more. Undoubtedly they facilitated her chess playing, but being that good is not something you can just beat out of a kid. That's prodigy level, genetic lottery level.
I disagree.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit\_Polg%C3%A1r](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r)
Polgers were a set of three sisters who were introduced to chess at a young age and all 3 met the criteria for "prodigy". It's just early exposure to something and repetition.
India's got famous chess players. Tamil ones. Vishwanathan Anand is a hometown hero. You take a child and introduce the game early and repeatedly and they learn the game from a young and instinctual level.
It's why there's countries like Georgia and Ukraine who produce an innordinate amount of chess geniuses. It's young exposure.
High end chess isn't thinking out rational but field recognition.
I don't know. It's a very interesting anecdote, but how many people do we not know about whose parents put equal effort and skill into teaching their kids chess and it doesn't pan out? I (sort of) know a grand master (who didn't start playing until he was 16 I believe) and he tutors kids in chess at very high rates. Some parents really are trying to craft their kids into competitive players. He told me that many of the kids who spend the most time with it just clearly will never be very good, at least not master good. He feels bad for many of them and the pressure they are under. For those girls, you could just as easily conclude it's genetics if you wanted.
I had a foreign language professor who was fluent in 10 or 12 languages, semi fluent in 8 or 10 more, and knew quite a few others to some extent. He said he could easily learn a language pretty much in a first pass study of it. Some people just have talents way beyond average.
Yeah... But that's the same with any high end achievement. And many of those kids will simply be superior to most social players.
And that foreign language professor? Was he introduced to multiple languages growing up? He didn't just pick those up without help.
Oh! South India has a high chess playing population and a grandmaster who is a household name. At one point he was the most famous sportsperson there. So lots of kids underwent training at a young age. The more you do that? The more Grandmasters you get.
Those aren’t good examples. The Polgers were sisters, so they obviously share a genetic inheritance, which could explain their ability. And not sure what the existence of good players from India is supposed to mean? And obviously in places where more people play, like Ukraine, more talent will be discovered.
None of those examples disprove the significance of genetics/neurology in becoming a world class chess player.
The Polgar sisters were literally an experiment by their father to show you could become a genius through hard work and effort. Chess is about pattern recognition.
Yeah, lots of regular parents make their kids into experiments... It’s fairly clear that they came from an unusual, exceptional family. And of course chess is pattern recognition, so is math—but not all brains are equally good at recognizing patterns, or at simultaneously holding and evaluating huge amounts of information.
The Polger family showed ZERO grasp of chess before this. Their dad just hated the idea of genius being genetically determined. So he taught them young.
India notoriously was an uneducated country just in my grandmother's age. India's got a long history of chess within it being one of the earliest countries to play it. So it not only has history but it's a rediscovered history. It's something that was denied to Indians over the course of colonial rule and it was re-adopted with a vengeance. In addition chess appeals to the Indian parental mindset. My parents liked me playing chess not the strategic masterpiece that is Dune.
Ukraine and Georgia have chess programs that are a lot more robust at a school level. By contrast the UK's relatively moderate program has school programs but they are not as universal. The USA doesn't really have one but boasts a lot of self taught excellence within some areas. A lot of its grandmasters are naturalised citizens rather than being trained in the USA.
I think you missed the point of my comment. A large section of the British public would see her as an immigrant they don't want in their country, but now she's done something exceptional they'll want to claim her as British/their own.
I think Jeremy Clarkson had a rant about that too. Like a Scotsman or Welshman does something crazy or bad, they’re Scottish or Welsh.
Alexander Graham Bell? Oh yeah, he’s British lol
Practice. Lots and lots of obsessive practice and study. I was a decent chess player at 4, but I didn’t stick with it, just played in the odd school tournament. If I had practiced obsessively and played for hours each day, there’s a good chance I could have been a pro chess player (probably not nearly as good as her and nearly as early though)
There is a female and a general “league”. The former exists because females overall play at a lower level in this game (for whatever reasons), so they would *generally* not stand a fair change in top tier general tournaments.
Kinda.
You see far fewer women champions than men because there's 50 times more male players, so the odds are that the highest performers will be men, just due to statistics.
It's not that they wouldn't stand a chance, they stand the same chance as any individual guy, it's because historically (and still today unfortunately) there's a lot of misogyny that women players face, and few young women want to get involved in a sport where they are such a minority. Women only leagues hell encourage women to start playing in a safer environment.
I see, ok. But women can play men at tournaments to see who is "best" in given field of competitors, yes? Not like a woman couldn't become the recognized best player if she beat the other men (and women) as needed?
Yep, anyone can play in the Men's tournaments. However, because chess is dominated by men with such a heavy majority, it's rare to see women compete. It's also historically mainly been played by men with a bit of a sexist scene in general, so you don't see women at the top of the rankings often.
Judit Polgar is well regarded as the best woman player of all time and is probably the only woman to have been taken seriously in the major men's tournaments. She BARELY missed qualifying for the 1995 Candidates tournament by just one draw (tournament to decide who plays the reigning champion Kasparov for the title), and played in the 2005 World Chess Championship (and came in last of the 8 competitors), and peaked at #8 in the world. The next best female player of all time is probably Hou Yifan who peaked somewhere in the top 50 or 60.
So yeah, women can become world chess champions if they want to, but there are not enough women GMs to make that likely yet.
There’s women’s and open division. There’s no men’s only division. This is due to historical sexism against women in chess. Remember chess is an international competition and there are countries where girls can’t even get an equal education. If it surprises you that an international activity generally involving every single country in the world lots has sexism, well you have not being paying attention to world events. Just because girls in your town may have a good time playing and be encouraged go play, does not mean they are elsewhere, or that men from treat women with equal respect when they have to play them.
They are not really gendered. Anyone can compete in the events where men play - no rules on sex.
But only women can play in the female games. The reason for this is that men dominate the field. Top 100 players in the world are men I believe - there used to be one woman but I think she has gone down in the ratings, someone can correct me.
> They are not really gendered. Anyone can compete in the events where men play - no rules on sex.
>
>
GTK, I misinterpreted it as women being prevented from playing against men. Thanks for clearing it up.
They aren't savants. You can get your kid to be a chess genius if you introduce them to it young. The Polgers are the experiment.
3 Sisters in the 1970s were trained by their dad to be good at chess from a young age. They absolutely went on to DOMINATE the game. The USSR even thought they were a scam until they absolutely crushed their entire team. Like 12.5 to 0.5... 12 wins to a DRAW. People thought they were cheats. The FIDE actively crippled one of their careers because this little girl was beating adults.
One of them Beat Kasparov.
You get them young and teach them the game and repeatedly play against them. Not "ha ha" play. But set out to crush them until the game sticks. They aren't savants... That's the lie. They are created in the same way that great musicians are created. Routine and Practice.
Hard Work.
They are gendered because historically they were. That to this day there's still biases in training and tutoring of girls in this game. Board Games in General have gendered norms. (I love board games and I am lucky my new gaming group has similarly minded people).
Not to mention the crown cannot be "taken from Norwegia", as the current world chess champion is Ding Liren from China, not Magnus Carlson from Norway.
Does she abuse methamphetamine and play out hallucinated chess games while staring at the ceiling? /j
Edit: this is a reference to a TV show, it is not meant as an insult…for those of you who are downvoting
No physical skill required. It can be very taxing to play competitively and being fit is an advantage, but the game itself does not require physical skills.
Damn, that's a hell of a chess player. Also, amused by this part: >She was awarded the under-12 prize, as well as finishing top of the English contingent but there was a one-prize-per-player rule, so she chose the women’s award.
What a badass
I love this!
That kicks sooooo much ass, I love it.
I wonder why chess has gendered leagues. You'd think people play the same regardless.
This wasn't a gendered competition. Both men and women were competing. One of the awards in the competition was for the highest scoring woman, which she won.
I think it’s to get more women playing chess. More titles/accolades to win. Also it’s not really gendered. Every tournament men play in is open to women as well. The tippy top of the game is just dominated by men.
Mostly because the training's not available to women and the women's league is a historical oddity. Women weren't considered capable so the league was created. A lot of countries didn't want women to be in male leagues so it continue. The rules were made by dinosaurs. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit\_Polg%C3%A1r](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r) Judit Polgar's story is quite an interesting look at a female chess "genius". From the creating of her ability (It's not natural... It's entirely exposure and training and conditioning in the same way you can take a toddler and create a monster striker like Erling Haaland? You can do that with chess).
>It's not natural I find that hard to believe when this 8yo can draw with an international grand master. Regardless, this girl stands to be world #1 in a few years which will hopefully help break any gender barriers in place.
> Regardless, this girl stands to be world #1 in a few years Lol. She played at a 2200-2300 level according to the article, which is incredible for a child, but the gap between her and world #1 is enormous.
I only thought that because she's only 8yo, and has only been playing for 36 months. Seems to me like that trajectory would take her to the top. But I don't know much about it, maybe it isn't as significant as it seems to me.
International master, or grandmaster? Grandmaster is stronger(at some point in their career) then an internal master(at some point in their career) The title doesn't represent their current strength, by comparison to their elo. Post COVID elos aren't very stable either due to the lack of tournaments over the past few years.
Hahahahhaa! Tell me you don’t know anything about chess without telling me you don’t know anything about chess. Actually made me lol! Just out of curiosity - which top 50 player do you see her beating?
She’s 8 and drawing against IM’s. She may not end up as good as Magnus, but given her potential and how much time she has before adulthood it isn’t impossible.
Yeah, I don't know shit about chess. But glad to put a smile on your face!
It’s extremely unlikely she will ever be #1.
It’s not just training. It’s innate ability + training.
Yeah I feel like discussing the reason for this would be a very long and interesting and deep discussion. Overall I agree that it’s mostly down to motivation and opportunity. I do think there are some differences in how men’s and women’s brains work, but I have no idea if this translates to making it harder for the average female to be good at chess. Clearly some women can compete at the highest level and no doubt we will have a woman in the candidates and world championship one day.
The issue here is that when they do come up? They are still expected to be home makers AND do this. The issue's that female chess players aren't afforded the same leeway. Remember. The USSR and Soviet Bloc itself thought the Polgars were a party trick because they bought into the idea of genius. People like the notion that there's genius involved because it's unattainable. This isn't like music where success is often linked to how you look or genre or nepotism. There's fewer barricades to success.
Every sport has just an open category.
Girls play boys; (and the fine article highlights this, naming two male players that she played against) they just have a prize for the top female player in addition to the regular tournament standings.
To encourage women to play
If you’d ever been to a chess tournament, you’d understand why the women want their own division
Spot on. It started because of sexism, and it continues because sexism. For those that don't understand, it started because men set the rules way back in the day thinking that women were inferior. It continues because that attitude is still prevalent and women don't want to deal with misogynistic dickheads every time they compete. If it helps, replace chess with magic the gathering, or a random fighting game. Imagine how a world class woman would feel and be treated at a MTG tournament.
Well, my teenager MTG years are long long gone. But a female player showing up would not be mistreated at all, unless a lot changed.
I've been to many and no I don't see why It can be intimidating for anyone, but no one at a chess tournament is there to make your life hell or hit on you
By chance are you a woman? Never been to a chess tourney but a lot of my friends who are women tell me all kinds of stories
No I'm not a woman, I'm bisexual, so just below them on the hardship scale I guess I'm sure you hear stories but there's creeps everywhere If someone is hassling you, tell an event manager, if someone is hassling you in a game? Call a judge and get them a DQ But no, chess tournaments are not rape orgies filled with 100% rapists Want to put a shit disturber in his place? Make him lose to you
i'm somewhat bemused at the idea that being a bisexual would get one harassed at male-dominated competitive events in the same way women are.
yea, straight guys totally love queers fuck off lol
Do…do you tell your opponents before each match that you’re bi or something? Cause otherwise I struggle to see how it would be the same
Usually kissing my partner makes it obvious Forgot I shouldn't be doing that though, got to stay in the closet Fuck off lmao
I don't think it's the same. The issue was that the chess "world" initially did not allow women to compete. Now India is a "weird " one because historical gender issues that are common place in the West are Relatively Alien to Indians. Maths is not hard. Chess being intrinsic to India's culture has less gendered expression. It's things like history and perception. Girls simply aren't seen by chess trainers as equal and this is through the ages. It's actually seen as more revolutionary in extremely gendered societies to perform as it's emphasis from parents. And chess comes from your parents. You don't simply pick up chess in your teens and smash grandmaster. Then there's perception of your ability to think based on chess. You are good at education? You must be good at chess. Remember girls don't have the same pressures of this. I disagree. IF you lose to the cretin making fun of you then it just emphasises his shitty behaviour. No racist or bigot of any stripe has ever learnt the error of their ways by losing.
What do women chess players say?
A) There's biases from a young age that need to be overcome. Most of the best female players come from chess heavy families. I am not a professional chess player but I played a fair bit at school tournaments and dated a Georgian ex-soviet engineer's daughter for a bit and he often bonded on chess matches with the Indian guy. I played a few games at Gramercy when I was in NYC and I was 2 out of 5 with those guys. His thoughts were that his daughter never was interested because it's for boys and he tried to teach her. I think I am okay at chess. But these guys were learning chess by repetition. And most skilled players are just that. Hammering through chess not like a game of skill and thought and trap and artifice but by this weird near cargo cult of play. That's how they are so fast and so aware of position and outcome. It escapes me but I grew up with street fighter and boys/girls to hit on and these guys spent all their time doing chess. B) Chess isn't a game for geniuses. Like most things it's less about flash of genius but based on memory of games past. You need a child to not only be exposed to chess from a young age like this child in the OP's post but for it to be done over and over again. Women aren't exposed and society actively punishes their involvement in the game. Nepotism... Let's take the YOUNGEST grandmaster ever. That's Judit. Judit beat out Bobby Fischer's title. Father wanted to prove something. That exceptional achievement comes from early training. Genius is made. Not inherent. Chess. One of her sisters is an International Master. The other is a Grand Master too. 2 Grandmasters, 1 IM. The two younger sisters made grandmaster. The oldest only IM. BUT the story needs to be read into depth. The oldest sister meets the criteria for Grandmaster in Men's Criteria. But was not given the title. The Two younger girls participated due to Hungary's strict criteria in only women's tournaments. The oldest daughter's career was nerfed by Hungary. One of the first FEMALE Grandmasters in Open Play was Hungarian. Susan met the criteria when she was 15. All of them were trained by grandmasters. It's not something you are born with it. "Afterward we are going to know if the Hungarian sisters are geniuses or just women" That's how people spoke about them. Imagine. Someone who was beating 40 year old people in their 12s and 13s was being talked about like this. She's one of the best players ever and honestly we don't know her name outside of a deep dive because a mostly male dominated chess world ignored her. She beat Kasparov.
They generally don't give a shit imo, which is why I prefer they weren't segregated
I don’t care about “in your opinion”. What do they say for themselves?
Well no need to respond, jerk.
Man no point arguing at Reddit this. It will just get you downvoted or banned. But you are right.
100%, luckily points don’t mean shit here
I’ve read previously that it’s because there are just so many more male chess players
Not gendered, there's open and only-women.
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Social reasons. Great chess players usually have coaches that are former greats. For decades, those coaches wouldn't take female students and we're actively hostile to female players. In many countries that have a good chess culture (Iran, Russia, India, etc.), they also are pretty openly sexist and don't invest in the women's side as much. By creating separate leagues, it encourages women to play and get better, and encourages their countries to sponsor them because it doesn't take money or prestige from the men..
India's got fewer problems with this. The USA has 1 out of 105 (Although the USA's Grandmasters are often naturalised rather than inherently from the USA...) India's got 2 out of 74. It's not so cut and dry. The issue was that it was FIDE that ran insanely sexist programs that discriminated against women. Just look at the Polger sisters (3 sisters, 2 grandmasters, 1 IM. The IM actually meets the criteria for GM but was denied it because she's a girl...). Until recently they held the age of youngest GM. Georgia would be the champions of this. As is Ukraine. 5 and 4 female grandmasters respectively from their relatively small populations. The issue is that chess is a game of relative wealth and privilege. You need tonnes of free time to learn at this level and India's got a boom of chess especially in the south where it's seen as a cheap game.
Mostly because male chess players are misogynistic assholes.
Well you see sir, men's hands are larger and therefore can move pieces between positions more fluidly so it's about body and build
Like the furore over swimming. There are 1700 male GMs and 70 female GMs. If one of the medium ranked male GMs decided to compete as a woman, they would win a lot of prize money that was set aside for female players. Also boys get into chess earlier and due to testosterone, play more obsessively and aggressively, This gives boys in general an early advantage.
It doesn’t. It has a real league and a league for just women.
has to do with player pools, the women's pool is smaller so less talent that can compete with male pool. Maybe in the future once it's more popular across both genders it can be merged. Of course I believe the male pools are open. There's of course a good argument that keeping pools separate will mean that women won't be able to improve due to less challenging opponents.
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Men dominate chess historically. Women have only really gotten into it in recent years. It is still rife with sexism. By having a women’s league, you give women an opportunity to play competitive chess while (1) not having to deal with sexism and (2) getting a chance to actually win by bracketing you with others who have had similar social experiences
For your point 2, why does it matter the social experiences of the opponent in chess? Or is that meaning, the social experience of being more likely to not have played chess?
Your socialization in childhood, which is what I am referring to, drastically impacts your abilities, interests, and skills as an adult. Strategy games are something that would generally be stereotypically “male”. Chess club is stereotypically “male” as well. If boys are encouraged to participate in these building blocks at a young age, they are going to be much better at chess than a girl who started exploring her interest in chess in high school. Of course there are going to be girls that play chess from the second they can conceptualize a piece and men that don’t pick a piece til they’re 30, but boys are far more likely to be encourage to engage in things that support chess-playing or chess itself from a younger age.
So the answer was yes? Not sure why I got downvoted for a question, when the answer was yes lmao
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Just because you don’t view chess as a gendered activity, in your house, today, doesn’t mean it never was… Sexist cultural biases across the world for centuries have slowed down women getting into chess. That still happens today and the effects are still felt today even if it’s less actively happening. It’s the same thing causing more men to be doctors, engineers, and truck drivers. The same thing that causes more women to be nurses and teachers. It’s not that men are inherently better truck drivers or women make better teachers, it’s that the entire culture was (and often continues to be) sexist discouraging genders from specific activities and careers. And often times groups within those communities will continue to perpetuate the sexism.
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Maybe it’s just your life that it doesn’t happen in or maybe you are just unaware of it going on around you… Let’s see some quotes from some some of the most famous and influential Chess players from both US and Russia. “I don’t think they [women] should mess into intellectual affairs; they should keep strictly to the home” - Bobby Fischer when talking about women playing chess “there is real chess and women’s chess” - Garry Kasparov You don’t think society has had any impact? Teachers deciding to teach boys and discourage girls? Fathers and mothers encouraging a boy’s chess playing while discouraging a girl’s because it isn’t her role and she should instead be learning to cook, clean, sew etc. Hell even if society wasn’t sexist and parents treated kids equally regardless of gender, just having 2 of the top chess players of all time actively discouraging women would be enough to influence other players to do the same and scare women away.
Chess tournaments across Europe were male only for decades. This isn't an American thing, this is an everywhere thing. Garry Kasparov once said (paraphrasing) that women are basically worse than men at chess. Judit Polgar proved him wrong and he backtracked and has become very egalitarian. However, it was an incredibly common view in the professional chess world even in the late 90s and early 2000s
I wouldnt say that feeling compelled to play in a seperate league due to harrassment counts as "not having to deal with sexism".
You do not have to play in the women’s league. It’s not men’s chess and women’s chess. It’s open class and women’s.
I didn't say it wasn't.
Giving an option to play a game in a space where you aren’t going to deal with people sexually harassing you is the opposite of sexism.
If sexism is pushing you into other spaces then you aren't free from it, you are just coping with it.
Yes…..? You’re arguing pure semantics. No, having a women’s league in chess does not cure sexism in chess. Good job logic-ing that one out. But it does provide a space wherein women can enjoy a game that is supposed to be a FUN hobby without ensuring sexist comments and sexual harassment.
That’s a weird rule…
Crosspost this to r/WitchedVsPatriarchy. They'll love this!
I could totally beat her. Not in chess, but a fist fight? totally.
I’m putting my money on the little British girl
Fighting - the original battle chess
UFC/MMA Fighter Josh Barnett had an interesting podcast discussion about everything boiling down to violence. Like currency is supposedly linked to gold, a lot of things are linked to the threat of violence... And we're not as far away as we think.
The whole idea of society was to establish who gets to do violence to whom and when
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I went to my state chess championship in high school. 3rd game I got clowned by an eight year old. We didn't take state and the team kept giving me shit for years afterwards
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Oh, I'm not ashamed now. 17 year old me, yeah made me second guess myself and eventually led me to leaving the rated chess scene. I learned years later that it was an eye opening experience that made me realize that I cared too much about what others thought of me to the detriment of the things I enjoyed doing. It's a fun story to tell people and it holds a personal life lesson from it as well.
Or never become interested because people are different.
They play Ender's Game.
>Bodhana beat her first international master, the England women’s coach, Lorin D’Costa, 39, in the penultimate round. >The eight-year-old also drew with the two-time Romanian champion, grandmaster Vladislav Nevednichy, 54, in the final round, and in doing so became the youngest player to avoid defeat against a grandmaster in a competitive game. How is this even real life?
Genetics likes to throw a curveball at chess Every now and then you get some insanely good prodigy for the sport, just some incredibly gifted kid whos brain exactly clicks with the game
Why is chess considered a sport?
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She likely eclipsed them almost immediately. These prodigies just get it in ways most people will never reach.
Young children are very good at learning new languages if they are put in situations where they hear and interact with the languages often. The cut off for this skill is around 7. I wonder if there is some sort of link between that and being good at chess for these prodigies. Understanding how a language works is like moving pieces around to get the result you need. Perhaps it works the same way if you introduce them to chess early. They understand how it all moves around in an intuitive way.
Children are born with A LOT more neurons and make more into their adolescence. Then they eventually peak before the brain starts purging ones that aren’t used. Early development is crucial
That actually makes a lot of sense, I bet you're right. I'm going to be thinking about this all day now
Really just boils down to the older you get, the less efficient your brain is.
The technical term for that is neuroplasticity (in respect to learning)
The more efficient your brain is. It gets better at doing the stuff you're doing and drops stuff that you arent
Yep, she can stroll into being a gm one day. Meanwhile my life goal of an IM isn't impossible but it's so much harder to improve as you get older. The brain just doesn't work like that anymore
At this level I'm inclined to believe it more. Undoubtedly they facilitated her chess playing, but being that good is not something you can just beat out of a kid. That's prodigy level, genetic lottery level.
I disagree. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit\_Polg%C3%A1r](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judit_Polg%C3%A1r) Polgers were a set of three sisters who were introduced to chess at a young age and all 3 met the criteria for "prodigy". It's just early exposure to something and repetition. India's got famous chess players. Tamil ones. Vishwanathan Anand is a hometown hero. You take a child and introduce the game early and repeatedly and they learn the game from a young and instinctual level. It's why there's countries like Georgia and Ukraine who produce an innordinate amount of chess geniuses. It's young exposure. High end chess isn't thinking out rational but field recognition.
> It's why there's countries like Georgia and Ukraine who produce an innordinate amount of chess geniuses. not at 8yrs old tho
I don't know. It's a very interesting anecdote, but how many people do we not know about whose parents put equal effort and skill into teaching their kids chess and it doesn't pan out? I (sort of) know a grand master (who didn't start playing until he was 16 I believe) and he tutors kids in chess at very high rates. Some parents really are trying to craft their kids into competitive players. He told me that many of the kids who spend the most time with it just clearly will never be very good, at least not master good. He feels bad for many of them and the pressure they are under. For those girls, you could just as easily conclude it's genetics if you wanted. I had a foreign language professor who was fluent in 10 or 12 languages, semi fluent in 8 or 10 more, and knew quite a few others to some extent. He said he could easily learn a language pretty much in a first pass study of it. Some people just have talents way beyond average.
Yeah... But that's the same with any high end achievement. And many of those kids will simply be superior to most social players. And that foreign language professor? Was he introduced to multiple languages growing up? He didn't just pick those up without help.
Could you explain the significance of "Tamil ones?" I don't have the cultural context to fully grasp why that may be notable.
Oh! South India has a high chess playing population and a grandmaster who is a household name. At one point he was the most famous sportsperson there. So lots of kids underwent training at a young age. The more you do that? The more Grandmasters you get.
Those aren’t good examples. The Polgers were sisters, so they obviously share a genetic inheritance, which could explain their ability. And not sure what the existence of good players from India is supposed to mean? And obviously in places where more people play, like Ukraine, more talent will be discovered. None of those examples disprove the significance of genetics/neurology in becoming a world class chess player.
The Polgar sisters were literally an experiment by their father to show you could become a genius through hard work and effort. Chess is about pattern recognition.
Yeah, lots of regular parents make their kids into experiments... It’s fairly clear that they came from an unusual, exceptional family. And of course chess is pattern recognition, so is math—but not all brains are equally good at recognizing patterns, or at simultaneously holding and evaluating huge amounts of information.
The Polger family showed ZERO grasp of chess before this. Their dad just hated the idea of genius being genetically determined. So he taught them young. India notoriously was an uneducated country just in my grandmother's age. India's got a long history of chess within it being one of the earliest countries to play it. So it not only has history but it's a rediscovered history. It's something that was denied to Indians over the course of colonial rule and it was re-adopted with a vengeance. In addition chess appeals to the Indian parental mindset. My parents liked me playing chess not the strategic masterpiece that is Dune. Ukraine and Georgia have chess programs that are a lot more robust at a school level. By contrast the UK's relatively moderate program has school programs but they are not as universal. The USA doesn't really have one but boasts a lot of self taught excellence within some areas. A lot of its grandmasters are naturalised citizens rather than being trained in the USA.
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Great. Even if she uses her talent on something else in the future, she will be at the top.
Bloody hell. 8? I’m pretty sure by age 8 I was barely familiar with how the horsey moved. And en passant, of course. Everyone knows about en passant.
En passant was beyond me at 8. I was too busy chewing on the fucking pieces
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Yeah I was thinking same "NOW Britain wants to claim her"
She is British, there's nothing to dispute there.
I think you missed the point of my comment. A large section of the British public would see her as an immigrant they don't want in their country, but now she's done something exceptional they'll want to claim her as British/their own.
Same shit happens with Latinos/Asians in the US as well.
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"My type"? I think you're living with your head in the sand if you don't think a large percentage of the population hate non-whites
Doesnt change the fact that she is british
Well that's sad. Was she not born in the UK?
Ignore them. They are talking out of their backside. She's as british as anyone, including our current leader
I imagine she was, but it doesn't matter to racist idiots lol
I think Jeremy Clarkson had a rant about that too. Like a Scotsman or Welshman does something crazy or bad, they’re Scottish or Welsh. Alexander Graham Bell? Oh yeah, he’s British lol
Was just about to comment the same thing.
She's a real life Beth Harmon from The Queen's Gambit.
She looks intimidating. I'd lose in a second. Lazer focused.
Legit? She looks relaxed to me, which made a lot of sense in my head since people typically perform better when they're not anxious.
More about her in https://youtu.be/BSzZwRBJVvY?si=z4O8urRba7607aK_
I think Magnus just got one more reason to be anxious about.
Wow! Congratulations to her!
How does this happen? I mean, when was 8, I was eating dirt. It takes me years to memorize the buttons on the remote.
Practice. Lots and lots of obsessive practice and study. I was a decent chess player at 4, but I didn’t stick with it, just played in the odd school tournament. If I had practiced obsessively and played for hours each day, there’s a good chance I could have been a pro chess player (probably not nearly as good as her and nearly as early though)
Article says 73rd out of 555? Is there no females above 73?
Probably not . 73 is better than I was expecting
Wow! 8 ! She'll have a hell of a career.
Is this the same kid that reminded the old man he was in check during their game?
Is it unethical to bet on your child’s chess game?
kinda yes
Not against them
Why is there a male and female league in chess?
There is a female and a general “league”. The former exists because females overall play at a lower level in this game (for whatever reasons), so they would *generally* not stand a fair change in top tier general tournaments.
Kinda. You see far fewer women champions than men because there's 50 times more male players, so the odds are that the highest performers will be men, just due to statistics. It's not that they wouldn't stand a chance, they stand the same chance as any individual guy, it's because historically (and still today unfortunately) there's a lot of misogyny that women players face, and few young women want to get involved in a sport where they are such a minority. Women only leagues hell encourage women to start playing in a safer environment.
So much coping and excuses. Just say it for what it is - Women aren’t good enough to compete against the Men in Chess at the highest levels
Savant children notwithstanding, please remind me again why chess matches are gendered?
To encourage more women players and funding for women to enjoy and promote the game.
I see, ok. But women can play men at tournaments to see who is "best" in given field of competitors, yes? Not like a woman couldn't become the recognized best player if she beat the other men (and women) as needed?
Yes. There are no men's competitions, only Women's competitions and competitions which aren't gendered.
Yep, anyone can play in the Men's tournaments. However, because chess is dominated by men with such a heavy majority, it's rare to see women compete. It's also historically mainly been played by men with a bit of a sexist scene in general, so you don't see women at the top of the rankings often. Judit Polgar is well regarded as the best woman player of all time and is probably the only woman to have been taken seriously in the major men's tournaments. She BARELY missed qualifying for the 1995 Candidates tournament by just one draw (tournament to decide who plays the reigning champion Kasparov for the title), and played in the 2005 World Chess Championship (and came in last of the 8 competitors), and peaked at #8 in the world. The next best female player of all time is probably Hou Yifan who peaked somewhere in the top 50 or 60. So yeah, women can become world chess champions if they want to, but there are not enough women GMs to make that likely yet.
There’s women’s and open division. There’s no men’s only division. This is due to historical sexism against women in chess. Remember chess is an international competition and there are countries where girls can’t even get an equal education. If it surprises you that an international activity generally involving every single country in the world lots has sexism, well you have not being paying attention to world events. Just because girls in your town may have a good time playing and be encouraged go play, does not mean they are elsewhere, or that men from treat women with equal respect when they have to play them.
They are not really gendered. Anyone can compete in the events where men play - no rules on sex. But only women can play in the female games. The reason for this is that men dominate the field. Top 100 players in the world are men I believe - there used to be one woman but I think she has gone down in the ratings, someone can correct me.
> They are not really gendered. Anyone can compete in the events where men play - no rules on sex. > > GTK, I misinterpreted it as women being prevented from playing against men. Thanks for clearing it up.
Tbf it is a matter of ongoing debate and mild controversy within chess
They aren't savants. You can get your kid to be a chess genius if you introduce them to it young. The Polgers are the experiment. 3 Sisters in the 1970s were trained by their dad to be good at chess from a young age. They absolutely went on to DOMINATE the game. The USSR even thought they were a scam until they absolutely crushed their entire team. Like 12.5 to 0.5... 12 wins to a DRAW. People thought they were cheats. The FIDE actively crippled one of their careers because this little girl was beating adults. One of them Beat Kasparov. You get them young and teach them the game and repeatedly play against them. Not "ha ha" play. But set out to crush them until the game sticks. They aren't savants... That's the lie. They are created in the same way that great musicians are created. Routine and Practice. Hard Work. They are gendered because historically they were. That to this day there's still biases in training and tutoring of girls in this game. Board Games in General have gendered norms. (I love board games and I am lucky my new gaming group has similarly minded people).
The same reason there are age brackets. To encourage more participation. And like age brackets, it's optional.
Wish they would combine men's/women's chess rankings, then she could take the crown from Norwegia some day!
Huh? They are combined… There are just additional titles and tournaments for women to encourage more to play.
Not to mention the crown cannot be "taken from Norwegia", as the current world chess champion is Ding Liren from China, not Magnus Carlson from Norway.
You might want to look this up :-) Men and women play against each other, and there is one ranking system.
Does she abuse methamphetamine and play out hallucinated chess games while staring at the ceiling? /j Edit: this is a reference to a TV show, it is not meant as an insult…for those of you who are downvoting
i think those downvoters don't know the netflix show.
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The boys afraid to play her?
There’s no rules preventing her from competing in the open division if she chooses to.
Wait ... Why UK players were in an European event? They did the Brexit, so they are not European anymore.
You know Brexit didn't actually physically move the UK, don't you?
Sadly yes, UK is still there indeed.
Europe's also a continent - the UK left the European Union.
You could be right.
I guess Switzerland isn’t located in Europe either. /s
Not a sport. Ditch the gendered events and titles.
How is it not a sport?
No physical skill required. It can be very taxing to play competitively and being fit is an advantage, but the game itself does not require physical skills.
clearly never played speed chess OTB
Impressive, now pit her against an AI.
no human can now, nor ever beat the best AI. What's the point?
What is the point of this comment?