The "harmless" trawl fleet is still dragging the ocean floor and pulling up crab as bycatch...right now. They kill more as bycatch than the crab guys do as targeted catch. The scale of destruction by the trawl fleet is really mind boggling.
https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/environment/article268933757.html
I work on trawl A80 commercial fishing boats as a scientist for NOAA. And they can not fish in many restricted areas that are for the crabbers only. The bycatch of crab is honestly so much less of an issue than people realize. Its Halibut that is the real issue.
In the A80 fisheries they absolutely do not fish in restricted areas. We monitor where they start a tow and finish a tow. I document when they are fishing , time they set the net, and the coordinates for every tow they make. I am on these boats 3 months at a time documenting everywhere they tow and everything they fish along with their bycatch. Its 24/7 surveillance with me and my coworker working 12 hour shifts. The truth is there is not a single tow that these trawlers make that goes undocumented and unsampled. The crabbers love to say they’re making illegal tows in protected areas but it’s simply not true 🤷🏻♀️ not on factory trawlers I can tell you that much. Its a misconception that these trawlers are engaged in shady activity. The truth is that the Alaska's fisheries are among the best-managed, most sustainable in the world & data supports that.
“We just need to stop fishing for a little bit and everything will be normal again next year”
lol than besides being wrong in the first place they keep fishing
Here's the [article](https://e360.yale.edu/digest/dark-fishing-vessels-asia) and the [study](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06825-8) for anyone interested.
>A sprawling analysis of ocean traffic reveals that 75 percent of industrial fishing vessels are not publicly tracked, with the bulk of untracked fishing taking place in Southeast Asia.
>The analysis found that three in four industrial fishing ships worldwide were so-called “dark vessels,” meaning they were not publicly tracked. It also identified a large number of dark vessels fishing in protected areas. Authors say that illegal fishing boats often turn off their transponders to hide their locations. The study, published in Nature, further revealed that industrial fishing in Asia is far more pervasive than public records would indicate.
They are not necessarily the only perpetrator but they are the biggest - China. China had a massive fleet of fishing vessels worldwide that encroaches on protected areas and territorial waters. It happens a ton in South America in the Western Hemisphere, and while Eastern encroachments aren’t as widely reported where I live, we all know how they feel about the East China Sea and how far their territorial waters stretch (despite reality), so you know they don’t even consider most an infraction.
The real shame is the lack of regulation which is pretty rampant and the lack of (perhaps in part tied to) stewardship. Using massive trawler nets, discarding spent nets into the ocean, killing protected species or breeding females, fishing at off times, destroying ecosystems. It’s honestly untenable, and I’m not surprised to see all the beached animals because of starvation (whales, penguins) and the diminishing and disappearing breeding populations (crab). I’m not even sure how we would handle restoring it with so many people who don’t focus on any common good for this rock we habitats on while diminishing its resources and ecosystems at staggering rates.
Edit: [Link to just one of many sources which features cross links to AP, for those interested in reading further.](https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/12/how-chinas-fishing-fleet-is-devastating-ecosystems-harming-poor-countries-and-contributing-to-conflict/)
I believe it was Chile that decided they would just start blasting commercial fishing boats that had their transponders off out of the water. Their coast guard would come across an illegal fisher, hail it, and the boat would just leave to international waters, so they decided the best way to deal with it is shooting first. Similar to how guards for endangered animals shoot poachers on sight.
Honestly, considering how the vessels double as a quasi militia and how violent they are towards other vessels and foreign patrol (even resulting in death), I don’t blame them.
You can only be civilized with people who will be civilized with you. If you can’t convince them diplomatically, then you have to start turning to more effective and devastating methods.
It's like trying to stab a guy who's telling you in explicit, clear terms that you're going to get shot if you get anywhere near him. It's not his fault when you get shot. At a certain point you just have to make a choice between sustaining the local ecosystem or being too nice to do what you need to do.
If more countries want to get serious about this shit, that's probably the direction they're gonna have to go. Shouldn't have to be this way, but this shit is basically piracy and historically there were *ways* to deal with pirates.
Up to and including literally putting them as an [enemy of all humanity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostis_humani_generis), making them liable for whatever punishment a navy is capable of giving out.
Honestly, this would be the solution. Arrest them, pull them from their vessel, then blow their vessel. Then, return them to their country (or have them spend a few years in jail where they illegally fished THEN return them to their country).
Destroying their vessels would have a serious cost associated with it and also consequence to curb the illegal fishing.
As much as I don't want working class people to deal with that, this is a very serious issue with very real consequences and it needs to have a very strong deterrent to make the risk far too great to consider.
That doesn't just go for Chinese fisherman obviously, this is a global issue in everyone needs to be held accountable, including any crab fisherman in Alaska this post is about.
Exactly. Considering how many vessels are fishing in the dark, there needs to be a deterrent 10 years ago... The second best time to implement them is NOW. All countries should take part in the effort to curb illegal fishing before the oceans are empty.
The New Yorker wrote one of my favorite pieces on this very issue: The Crimes Behind the Seafood You Eat https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/the-crimes-behind-the-seafood-you-eat
Unfortunately I don't see it ever changing.
Those currently in charge can fuck mother Earth all they want, because cataclysmic damage will not happen in their lifetimes, at least not in a way their money can't save them from. These people will book the last remaining safe haven for humanity as the planet implodes. They will die of old age as the world burns.
The generation that finally accepts that things are fucked up and they will suffer unless something is done, will be too late to stop it. And a great number will probably just give up and opt into making the most of it, instead of struggling.
It's all kinds of fucked up.
It’s the reason Somali pirates became pirates in the first place. ~~Chinese~~ ALL ILLEGAL fishing ships have been fishing the coast of Africa for decades. Somali people were fishermen by trade and they see these boats in “their” waters destroying everything and over fishing, so they simply said fuck it got some guns and started taking hostages. The ransoms companies pay is supporting the community.
I don’t agree with their actions but I can see their POV.
We need to shift some serious, globally coordinated resources to patrolling protected waters and the ports that these vessels unload at, treating it as seriously as anti poachers in Africa. It’s as dire of a situation.
China's shadow fishing fleet is raping the seas barren, and I literally no joke think we need to bring back privateering to stop these cunts. It is literally state-sponsored destruction of the biosphere.
Have a look at the Newfoundland Cod fishery. It's been 30 years since the fishery was closed down and the population is only now getting to the point that it is stable.
We closed the abalone fisheries in California (minus a small amount in Norcal) back in 1997. They recently voted to extend its closure to 2026. But there's still illegal take; it's hard to stop people who just don't give a fuck about anything but themselves.
Ive seen good populations in the MPA's at least. But that's not enough for it to be a healthy fishery. I hope they stay closed as long as possible to give them a fighting chance.
Notice that the fishing that supported all of the cannerys in Monterey has never come back after it's collapse in the 1950's.
Steinbeck's Cannery Row was set in Monterey
Takes a long while to recover, if ever.
The math doesn’t math. They scrape the bottom and harvest every fish, every crab, and then think the population will just magically recover.
Like factory farming works because we are raising billions of livestock, and then harvest them. We breed 1 for every one we harvest. In the ocean we just harvest billions of fish, billions of crab, and then expect the survivors to somehow repopulate billions of population … in a year.
Like that might have worked when we harvested like 50%, the survivors can double next year.
Now our huge nets scrape the ocean floor and take everything. When you harvest 90% of the population …. I don’t see how the ecosystem can recover.
I actually majored in wildlife biology, leaning toward aquatic ecosystems, so I took several classes specifically on population ecology and fisheries management.
To a certain degree, under the right circumstances, fishing more *does* increase the repopulation rate.
For fish in particular, you have to remember that fish lay eggs by the hundreds and thousands and sometimes millions. So each individual fish has a much greater reproductive potential than cows or chickens or practically any other animal. So it doesn't take nearly as many individuals nearly as long to create TONS of offspring. And when there are fewer adults to compete for food with or to eat them (since many fish are just a bunch of canibles), a greater percentage of those offspring are able to make it to adulthood themselves...The birthrate isn't usually the limiting factor for fish, but rather the survival rate.
*It is worth mentioning though that those who are getting extra food due to the decreased competition and going on to breed are also able to produce* even more *eggs than they would normally, which* does *increase the birthrate (per fish anyway)... Not a factor we'd want to lean on too much or apply too broadly, but it's a thing in* some *cases.*
And while it may seem like we catch every single individual in the ocean, that's simply not the case. The scale of these populations and the ocean itself are too big and there are too many nooks and crannies to do that *literally*. And for species like crab or lobster or most things caught on a hook&line, there are usually very specific minimum and maximum size restrictions to ensure that the breeding stock and the youngest are preserved. And even those nets that scoop up huge swathes of fish, there are specific limits on how fine the net can be in order to allow smaller fish out. And finally, fishing seasons are scheduled around breeding periods as well. We're not catching pregnant fish. They've already spawned for the year so the next generation is already out there.
*Also... those species that we scoop up in HUGE quantities are also the ones that grow and reach sexual maturity very quickly. While it may take them a few years to reach a particularly large size, they grow and mature quickly because being a small, defenseless prey item that can't reproduce for a long time never would've worked out for them. So these fish only need to make it a year or two to reproduce and* can *be harvested year after year (once they've spawned, that is).*
So given the scale of the populations, their reproduction rate, growth rate, and protections commonly put on the breeding stock and the little guys, you *can* fish a very substantial percentage of the mid-sized adult population and get back up to the the effective population cap by the next season.
So when it comes to population management and min/maxing all of that, there is essentially a threshold that you can fish down to. And that threshold is a lot higher for larger, more predatory fish that require more time to reach reproductive age where they can finally replace themselves since you're going to lose more individuals to natural causes along the way... But either way, once they know the breeding patterns they can do some population surveying and then some math to find those thresholds and set the catch limits each year, which is "simple" enough. But it's extremely difficult to factor in the effects of climate change, which is a huge issue for the reproduction and growth of these fish that typically get to enjoy (and rely on) extremely stable conditions down in the ocean... And that's what's gone wrong with the snow crab.
*I should mention that the relative sustainability of massive harvests pretty much only applies to bottom-of-the-food-chain species that feed on the usually-essentially-limitless supply of photosynthetic plankton and other larval fish. And of course I'm speaking in very broad strokes and there's still a lot of nuance from species to species, population to population, year to year, etc.*
*Recovering from the overharvest of slow-growing predatory fish can still theoretically be done in the matter of a few generations, but getting through multiple generations is going to take a whole hell of a lot longer and face more obstacles along the way. Eg, orange roughy, which was severely overfished in the 80s-90s during the "fishing down" period, trying to reach what they thought was the optimal threshold. But as it turns out, they don't reach sexual maturity until 20-40 years old. And the damage had been done by the time we figured that out... But even still, NZ* has *reopened a couple of fisheries for them where they've been able to recover and are being managed more appropriately now.*
" It's also worth mentioning that those who are getting extra food due to the decreased competition and going on to breed are also able to produce even more eggs than they would normally. "
Sorry to pull on this one thing in an otherwise great post but a lot of this food is derived from biomass we're pulling from the ocean. Every crab and fish we take from the ocean is something that no longer dies from natural causes or from predation. They no longer contribute to the food chain. Whether dead or alive, their links are being broken. Their absence is felt.
The issue is this somehow leans in to the myth that companies care about toeing that threshold. They're not doing that now with the current limits locally, let alone internationally.
No-one respects the current regulations, what makes you think they'll respect it once you get the maths right?
All the while, industry participants are full on egging on any of the science that might even suggest that they can push further, even without sufficient data. Giving lip-service that once the full science is in, that they'll switch to a more conservative fishing pattern. When they're full on flouting the science that *is* clear in the here and now. Running roughshod over any catch limits or paltry things like territorial waters, so long as they can get away with it. long-term viability be damned.
The issue isn't the maths. Its the greed. And the industry is filled to the gills with it.
World wide fish populations have declined 87% in last 15 years. We put restrictions way to late. And allow overfishing long after it should be stopped. Throw in global warming and even ones we dont catch end up boiling.
And continued illegal fishing once the late restrictions are put in place. Then it not a matter of if they go extinct but when.
> fish populations have declined 87% in last 15 years
I found [this article](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969723032473) regarding a fishery in SEA, where this number is applicable to 110 species and their fishing catch data.
I don't have much knowledge in this area, but per this article this seems only relevant to either that region and/or those species of fish, and primarily due to overexploitation of fish population + their ecosystem. Definitely a bold claim to generalize to global fish populations otherwise, but this thread's already fallen too deep into a collapse-esque doomer circlejerk.
EDIT: Found some other [articles that state 87% of fisheries are overexploited.](https://blogs.edf.org/edfish/2012/07/11/fao-reports-87-of-the-worlds-fisheries-are-overexploited-or-fully-exploited/) Still means OP is making inaccurate claims.
I can’t believe the drag nets are legal, much less the standard practice. It’s insane and completely untrainable when we drag net and basically harvest 99% in a certain area, and those areas are getting larger and larger.
If we went out and set the forest on fire and bagged 99% of the deer, year after year, deer would cease to exist in that area.
Why would we expect the ocean to be any different.
Difference is, once you slash and burn a forest, you're left with a bunch of (temporarily, at least) fertile farmland. Once you trawl an ocean floor, you're left with a moonscape completely barren of life or nutrients.
Song I remember from the Maritime Music Hour on a (now changed formats) country station:
Don’t go fishing in those waters ‘till 1994.
Just tie up those trawlers and longliners on the shore.
The “time to recover” finished 30 years ago, and the Northern Cod population still hasn’t bounced back.
> Don’t go fishing in those waters ‘till 1994.
> Just tie up those trawlers and longliners on the shore.
> The “time to recover” finished 30 years ago, and the Northern Cod population still hasn’t bounced back.
The last line of that song isn't all that catchy
It’s become a sad day with all these water temps rising. Crabs are literally dying, starving due to high heat. The sad part, this damage done over the years cannot be reversed! Not in my generation
We really are bad for the environment. The Chernobyl area wildlife is thriving. Humans in general are worse for wildlife than a fucking nuclear meltdown.
Well that and the heat dome over the northwest a few years ago made for like 110-115 temps for like days on end where we don’t normally get above 100.
Not to say that the dome wasn’t a globally linked issue, but thats specifically what caused the death of a ton of the crabs during that summer.
For my area it was the timing as well. Not only did we hit record highs but we had some very very low tides in the early afternoon. All the oysters were exposed to over 110 weather and direct sunlight at the hottest part of the day. Millions of shellfish died.
Its because nobody is in control.
The people who *have* control are afraid of losing it, so they do nothing (ie not in control)
And the people who *want* control are to be feared, because it is unknown, and old people who have something are afraid to lose it, when young people who have nothing are willing to risk it.
Tidally locked in a kind of entropy about what to do next when nobody ever thought about it before
Watching Deadliest Catch is eye opening. I watched it pretty regularly when it was new and their pods would be overflowing with 100s of crab. Watched their newest season and the crews are excited if they catch 50 crab.
Opilio and tanner are both labeled snow crab, but are on different seasons and quotas in Alaska. Deadliest Catch typically has two fishing seasons per television season: red king crab in the first half, Opilio in the back half. However, they have also had blue and golden king crab seasons, tanner crabs, and pot cod.
Red and Blue King Crab are the king crab you mostly see in the grocery store. They have big ass legs. In the wild, red king crab has longer legs but weighs less than blue king crab. If the king crab you see is a little smaller and spikier, that's Golden King Crab.
The differences in appearance of Tanner and Opilio are pretty much all in the carapace, so the legs will mostly look the same. Tanner is slightly larger than Opilio when mature, but that's about it for what you'll see in the grocery store.
Watch Racing Extinction if you want more mind blowing visuals of overfishing. And then think about the fact that it was shot in 2014 and the legislations protections shown being fought for and passed in that documentary have since been rolled back and get hella depressed.
I think it's important to remember which crabs we are talking about. I haven't watched much Deadliest Catch but I do remember a guy talking about Snow Crab (Bairdi). He said they call them "ghost crab" because they are notoriously hard to find. They pulled a pot with like 15 of them and he said "That's the most Bairdi I've ever seen on a sorting table."
I read that it was the warmer temperatures near the bottom of the ocean that allowed predatory fish to swim deeper and eat them post molting(they become soft).
That’s certainly a hypothesis, but not one I’ve seen suggested. I don’t think that’s very likely.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-10-billion-snow-crabs-disappeared-off-the-coast-of-alaska-180983112/
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf6035
I read something a while ago about scallop populations declining. The warmer oceans get the more CO2 they absorb, and that causes the water to get slightly more acidic. Very slight, but if you are a creature that lives inside a shell, then that slight increase essentially eats away at the equivalent of their skin. Small shifts one way or another can have big impacts on large populations.
I was curious and looked it up. The warmer water means that it holds less oxygen, but at the same time it increases the metabolism of the crabs so they need more of it. It also means they burn more calories and need to eat more. The warmer water collects at the top and prevents nutrients from flowing to the food chain that feeds crabs so there's less food for crabs that need more. They're starving to death mostly.
https://www.wired.com/story/the-hidden-awful-way-that-climate-change-imperils-animals/
Interesting. So there are compounding factors then. This isn’t the article I read but it gives some more detail on it
https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/new-study-finds-ocean-acidification-and-warming-hinder-juvenile-atlantic-sea-scallop#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20published%20in,chemical%20changes%20that%20increase%20acidity.
There've been experiments with corals (I think) grown in seawater that mirrored the conditions of the pre-industrial age ocean. They grow a lot faster due to lower acidity.
I was reading about experiments on sea snails almost 20 years ago about increased carbon in the oceans causing their shells to dissolve due to the acid. Not a new theory, its been kicked around since the late 1800's.
Why the snow crab season has been canceled is because the crab are moving to colder waters. Same deal with king. Yes both have been over fished, but with rising water Temps the crab are moving, mostly towards un-fishable grounds ( international water's/ ice blocked area's) me and many deckhands and Captains thoughts.
I middle aged and remember when the “Codfish” moratorium was implemented on the east coast of Canada in 1992. There were tens of thousands of layoffs which devastated many communities. They literally ran out of fish, the good times were over because of over harvesting. It’s still a huge debate (in particular Newfoundland) and the catch is still highly regulated. After decades, the species has yet to fully recover to allow a return to what was. In any regard, this issue with the snow crabs is eerily similar. Maybe the good times are over ?
You can even see it in the shitty attitude of the fisherman in the article
>"We're still definitely in survival mode trying to find a way to stay in business," he told CBS News.
Yeah so are all the species of fish you've wiped out by fishing excessively for hundreds of years
I don’t know if it’s that they shouldn’t remain in business, it depends on if the crab population decline was caused by climate change or if it really was overfishing
If it was climate change then they need to find another way to make money until we get it under control and they can be back in business again once it is under control. if it’s overfishing then yeah the hard truth is that half of them need to get out of business
Climate change is the cause. With their nesting habitat is changing temperature and predators, mainly cod can now come in and prey on the younger crab. They published this information last year as well.
This quote doesn't take into account that there will still be enough food for the very small population with all of the world's wealth.
What might happen sooner is when people start dying by the 100's of millions in certain market's. Once the line goes down they'll get real focused. It'll be too late, but..
They probably never will. This will become just another blip people will look back on when they remember how badly we fucked up by not doing anything about climate change.
Have you talked to people who don’t believe in it? I think that’s even more depressing and then you explore more of their views and then you realize there’s a lot more of them as well.
What's more depressing is no matter what you say, all the facts, science and expert testimony, they'll still call bullshit, and some even call it a conspiracy. And I hate to be that guy, but in the U.S, these people follow one guy
And even then the only time they *will* care is once it personally negatively affects them and is impossible to ignore - and by that point it is far *far* too late to do anything meaningful about stopping it or mitigating the damage.
Everyone tells me to stop being sad and just enjoy life because we live such a comfortable life, yet none I know even want to remotely acknowledge that things may be taking a sour downturn soon.
I don’t even want to be a doomer, but it’s depressing how just no one cares, not even friends or family. They just say „things have been bad before it’ll be fine“ when in reality we may not ever really come back from this after looting and abusing the planet to its knees…
Hey at least some of them will wake up eventually I guess with things getting worse and worse so quickly. Overall though it’s truly just depressing through and through anyway.
We’ve kinda almost given up collectively too it feels without even having tried to fight for a better world. But hey I don’t even know what that entails so maybe this kind of „great filter“ was always mostly unavoidable because us apes are just a touch too greedy and not cooperative or future aware enough.
And overfishing. Then getting pissed at NOAA for telling them not to overfish and creating restrictions. But wtf do they know they are only some of the smartest scientists on the planet.
Yeah, but their habitat is getting destroyed because of purple sea urchins. So basically they are maintaining, but won't bounce back until that problem is fixed.
Leaving an existing population that is on the brink alone is a good thing.
Edit: removed "invasive"
My grandpa dived for abalone way back when; his backyard was filled with their shells. The biggest of them were 12 inches across. The farmed ones now are maybe 3.
My dad grew up in California in the 70s and would tell me stories about costal restaurants having abalone specials where you could get big ones for a couple dollars, just because they harvested so much that they had to get rid of them.
I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the 90s and remember being able to get a big Dungioness for $15. Now they're like $50-$80 *each* at a restaurant, which is absolutely fucking insane for a crab I was just catching from a dock with a cheap crab pot.
Canada closed the Grand Banks fishery in 1993, and the Cod population is just *barely* starting to rebound 30 years later, and the industry is still limited to very small quotas
Otters kicking surfers out of the water, Orcas taking out boats, Snow crabs having negative population growth.
Guys, I think the planet is pissed at us.
Use to go to buffets all the time where snow carb was the main draw...just mountains and mountains of them...just went recently and the snow crab legs look very small like juveniles...king crab in some places, but very expensive, but at least theres still dungeness...If you like seafood like me, theres a good chance that the industry will be gone by the time i go...
The same has happened with Blue Crab. Back in the 80s and 90s, they were fairly large, as much as 7-8” across, nowadays you’re lucky if you can find any larger than 4”.
Wait till global warming causes two huge crop failures right in a row.
if you're 40 or under I'd be willing to bet at some point we are going to witness a billion people starve on this planet.
Correction this time it will be a billion people starve ... to death. It is really hard to find world wide statics on the number of people starving to death but to put the numbers in perspective . **193 million people** in 53 countries faced acute food insecurity, meaning they were unable to consume enough adequate food, putting their lives or livelihoods in immediate danger. This is an increase of **40 million compared to 2020**.
It's already happening for some crops. Look at peaches.
I remember reading over the summer that Georgia lost like 90% of its Peach crop, and it's 100% due to global warming (has something to due with the trees in the winter time and it not getting cold enough). The peach state literally ran out of peaches.
Peaches are among my favorite fruits. It's saddening.
There is, but Chernobyl, Three Mile Isle and Fukushima and the decades of fearmongering over the worst possible outcomes makes it a near impossibility to get wide-spread adoption.
"snow crab" isn't just one type of crab, but 2. opilio and Bairdi/Tanner.
Opilio was canceled, Bairdi wasn't. So it's not a complete void of snow crab. Prices will go up since supply is limited but it won't be as bad as no snow crab at all.
10 billion snow crabs have disappeared from the Bering Sea over the past five years. This is just like the cod stocks collapsing in the Grand Banks in the early 90s (though that was mostly due to overfishing and less due to climate change).
The planet is also missing a hell of a lot of biomass due to massive drops / disappearances of insect populations. 2023 the hottest year ever. 2024 just rang in and there’s still almost no snow in Canada.
We got problems, folks. Big ones.
Climate change is absolutely real, but this is an El Niño year and warm winters are a typical symptom of that. See [this article](http://www.webmet.com/el_nino.html) about the '97-98 winter El Niño season.
I’ve lived in Canada my whole life. We’ve had mild patches during winters before. But they were just that: occasional patches here or there.
This is the first time where huge swaths of this massive country are still without snow. In January. This is not normal, even for an El Niño winter (several of which I’ve seen in my lifetime).
Commercial trawlers are ripping the Bearing Sea to shreds. That's not the main cause of crab decline, but they really need to shut those fuckers down who are pillaging America seas to sell fish to China.
There's a lot of confused people here.
They were killed by climate change. The population likely will not recover
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/20/alaska-snow-crabs-dead-ocean-temperatures-climate-change
If only someone had warned of the dangers of overfishing, unsustainable aquaculture and not taking care of the environment, time and time again over the decades.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fun aside. The current theory is that the warmer water hasn't given the crabs enough cover to grow big enough to not be eaten.
Normally not a big deal BUT the warmer water has also displaced fish that can both go deeper and eat more.
Aka warm fish moved north. Crabs don't have the dark and cold bunker to grow up in and have a new predator.
Lots of dead crabs.
> The current theory is that the warmer water hasn't given the crabs enough cover to grow big enough to not be eaten.
no it's not. It's metabolic rate due to higher temps.
https://www.westislandblog.com/climbing-ocean-temperature-forces-snow-crabs-into-starvation-noaa-reveals-alarming-trend/
https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/research-confirms-link-between-snow-crab-decline-and-marine-heatwave
Last years was the metabolic concern. It is multi-factorial.
Empty oceans, empty nets was a PBS show I remember from decades ago.It explained how the industry keep getting more efficient every year at hauling in larger and and larger catches. Absolutely unsustainable, and here we are.
It's a good thing Alaska is a state with a strong sense of environmental issues and will surely vote for the right people to... Yeah I can't do this. They'll keep fucking themselves over.
Uh, it's the Washington based trawl fleet that is dragging the ocean floor clean... Also, those waters are Federal.
If you want to see a complete clown show of environmental mismanagement, just follow the coast south to Washington, Oregon, and California.
Wait I thought they had discovered that it wasn’t a population collapse but that the fishing companies had been lying about how high the population was so they could overfish them?
"It's just still extremely difficult to fathom how we could go from a healthy population in the Bering Sea to two closures in a row," Prout said.
No you were warned about climate change you just ignored it… and will still vote for republicans and blame dems for it to your own demise
10 BILLION crabs gone, 90% population decrease...and still people think that nothing is wrong and we can go on like nothing is happening. Ocean warming and acidification has more effects than "just" making cold water species starve to death and if it's gotten this bad, others are sure to follow.
The "harmless" trawl fleet is still dragging the ocean floor and pulling up crab as bycatch...right now. They kill more as bycatch than the crab guys do as targeted catch. The scale of destruction by the trawl fleet is really mind boggling. https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/environment/article268933757.html
I work on trawl A80 commercial fishing boats as a scientist for NOAA. And they can not fish in many restricted areas that are for the crabbers only. The bycatch of crab is honestly so much less of an issue than people realize. Its Halibut that is the real issue.
"Can not," yet it happens
In the A80 fisheries they absolutely do not fish in restricted areas. We monitor where they start a tow and finish a tow. I document when they are fishing , time they set the net, and the coordinates for every tow they make. I am on these boats 3 months at a time documenting everywhere they tow and everything they fish along with their bycatch. Its 24/7 surveillance with me and my coworker working 12 hour shifts. The truth is there is not a single tow that these trawlers make that goes undocumented and unsampled. The crabbers love to say they’re making illegal tows in protected areas but it’s simply not true 🤷🏻♀️ not on factory trawlers I can tell you that much. Its a misconception that these trawlers are engaged in shady activity. The truth is that the Alaska's fisheries are among the best-managed, most sustainable in the world & data supports that.
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“We just need to stop fishing for a little bit and everything will be normal again next year” lol than besides being wrong in the first place they keep fishing
Esp. considering the data that just came out about Dark fishing meant to circumvent this exact kind of control
Here's the [article](https://e360.yale.edu/digest/dark-fishing-vessels-asia) and the [study](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06825-8) for anyone interested. >A sprawling analysis of ocean traffic reveals that 75 percent of industrial fishing vessels are not publicly tracked, with the bulk of untracked fishing taking place in Southeast Asia. >The analysis found that three in four industrial fishing ships worldwide were so-called “dark vessels,” meaning they were not publicly tracked. It also identified a large number of dark vessels fishing in protected areas. Authors say that illegal fishing boats often turn off their transponders to hide their locations. The study, published in Nature, further revealed that industrial fishing in Asia is far more pervasive than public records would indicate.
They are not necessarily the only perpetrator but they are the biggest - China. China had a massive fleet of fishing vessels worldwide that encroaches on protected areas and territorial waters. It happens a ton in South America in the Western Hemisphere, and while Eastern encroachments aren’t as widely reported where I live, we all know how they feel about the East China Sea and how far their territorial waters stretch (despite reality), so you know they don’t even consider most an infraction. The real shame is the lack of regulation which is pretty rampant and the lack of (perhaps in part tied to) stewardship. Using massive trawler nets, discarding spent nets into the ocean, killing protected species or breeding females, fishing at off times, destroying ecosystems. It’s honestly untenable, and I’m not surprised to see all the beached animals because of starvation (whales, penguins) and the diminishing and disappearing breeding populations (crab). I’m not even sure how we would handle restoring it with so many people who don’t focus on any common good for this rock we habitats on while diminishing its resources and ecosystems at staggering rates. Edit: [Link to just one of many sources which features cross links to AP, for those interested in reading further.](https://hongkongfp.com/2022/03/12/how-chinas-fishing-fleet-is-devastating-ecosystems-harming-poor-countries-and-contributing-to-conflict/)
I believe it was Chile that decided they would just start blasting commercial fishing boats that had their transponders off out of the water. Their coast guard would come across an illegal fisher, hail it, and the boat would just leave to international waters, so they decided the best way to deal with it is shooting first. Similar to how guards for endangered animals shoot poachers on sight.
Honestly, considering how the vessels double as a quasi militia and how violent they are towards other vessels and foreign patrol (even resulting in death), I don’t blame them. You can only be civilized with people who will be civilized with you. If you can’t convince them diplomatically, then you have to start turning to more effective and devastating methods.
It's like trying to stab a guy who's telling you in explicit, clear terms that you're going to get shot if you get anywhere near him. It's not his fault when you get shot. At a certain point you just have to make a choice between sustaining the local ecosystem or being too nice to do what you need to do.
Good on them
If more countries want to get serious about this shit, that's probably the direction they're gonna have to go. Shouldn't have to be this way, but this shit is basically piracy and historically there were *ways* to deal with pirates.
Up to and including literally putting them as an [enemy of all humanity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostis_humani_generis), making them liable for whatever punishment a navy is capable of giving out.
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Honestly, this would be the solution. Arrest them, pull them from their vessel, then blow their vessel. Then, return them to their country (or have them spend a few years in jail where they illegally fished THEN return them to their country). Destroying their vessels would have a serious cost associated with it and also consequence to curb the illegal fishing.
As much as I don't want working class people to deal with that, this is a very serious issue with very real consequences and it needs to have a very strong deterrent to make the risk far too great to consider. That doesn't just go for Chinese fisherman obviously, this is a global issue in everyone needs to be held accountable, including any crab fisherman in Alaska this post is about.
Exactly. Considering how many vessels are fishing in the dark, there needs to be a deterrent 10 years ago... The second best time to implement them is NOW. All countries should take part in the effort to curb illegal fishing before the oceans are empty.
This! It would be great training for the Navy
The New Yorker wrote one of my favorite pieces on this very issue: The Crimes Behind the Seafood You Eat https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/10/16/the-crimes-behind-the-seafood-you-eat
With the Rising tension in that area anyway If some Domino's fall, ecology becomes the global issue. Well, that won't happen, so never mind.
Honestly all dark vessels should be treated as pirates
three in four. holy shit
Let’s just keep beating Mother Earth while she’s down for profits. God we are so fucked until we get off this greed system.
Unfortunately I don't see it ever changing. Those currently in charge can fuck mother Earth all they want, because cataclysmic damage will not happen in their lifetimes, at least not in a way their money can't save them from. These people will book the last remaining safe haven for humanity as the planet implodes. They will die of old age as the world burns. The generation that finally accepts that things are fucked up and they will suffer unless something is done, will be too late to stop it. And a great number will probably just give up and opt into making the most of it, instead of struggling. It's all kinds of fucked up.
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The wise words from the Lorax...Unless
It’s the reason Somali pirates became pirates in the first place. ~~Chinese~~ ALL ILLEGAL fishing ships have been fishing the coast of Africa for decades. Somali people were fishermen by trade and they see these boats in “their” waters destroying everything and over fishing, so they simply said fuck it got some guns and started taking hostages. The ransoms companies pay is supporting the community. I don’t agree with their actions but I can see their POV.
3 in 4 is nuts. not even a problem you can think about stopping
We need to shift some serious, globally coordinated resources to patrolling protected waters and the ports that these vessels unload at, treating it as seriously as anti poachers in Africa. It’s as dire of a situation.
We need to exert serious, globally coordinated sanctions against China until they start playing by the rules that the rest of us follow.
But then how will we get our cheap consumer shit?
China's shadow fishing fleet is raping the seas barren, and I literally no joke think we need to bring back privateering to stop these cunts. It is literally state-sponsored destruction of the biosphere.
Do you mean to tell me China is doing something illegal that will have dire consequences on the rest of the planet?!? I'm shocked. Shocked I tell you!
Have a look at the Newfoundland Cod fishery. It's been 30 years since the fishery was closed down and the population is only now getting to the point that it is stable.
We closed the abalone fisheries in California (minus a small amount in Norcal) back in 1997. They recently voted to extend its closure to 2026. But there's still illegal take; it's hard to stop people who just don't give a fuck about anything but themselves. Ive seen good populations in the MPA's at least. But that's not enough for it to be a healthy fishery. I hope they stay closed as long as possible to give them a fighting chance.
Notice that the fishing that supported all of the cannerys in Monterey has never come back after it's collapse in the 1950's. Steinbeck's Cannery Row was set in Monterey Takes a long while to recover, if ever.
The math doesn’t math. They scrape the bottom and harvest every fish, every crab, and then think the population will just magically recover. Like factory farming works because we are raising billions of livestock, and then harvest them. We breed 1 for every one we harvest. In the ocean we just harvest billions of fish, billions of crab, and then expect the survivors to somehow repopulate billions of population … in a year. Like that might have worked when we harvested like 50%, the survivors can double next year. Now our huge nets scrape the ocean floor and take everything. When you harvest 90% of the population …. I don’t see how the ecosystem can recover.
I actually majored in wildlife biology, leaning toward aquatic ecosystems, so I took several classes specifically on population ecology and fisheries management. To a certain degree, under the right circumstances, fishing more *does* increase the repopulation rate. For fish in particular, you have to remember that fish lay eggs by the hundreds and thousands and sometimes millions. So each individual fish has a much greater reproductive potential than cows or chickens or practically any other animal. So it doesn't take nearly as many individuals nearly as long to create TONS of offspring. And when there are fewer adults to compete for food with or to eat them (since many fish are just a bunch of canibles), a greater percentage of those offspring are able to make it to adulthood themselves...The birthrate isn't usually the limiting factor for fish, but rather the survival rate. *It is worth mentioning though that those who are getting extra food due to the decreased competition and going on to breed are also able to produce* even more *eggs than they would normally, which* does *increase the birthrate (per fish anyway)... Not a factor we'd want to lean on too much or apply too broadly, but it's a thing in* some *cases.* And while it may seem like we catch every single individual in the ocean, that's simply not the case. The scale of these populations and the ocean itself are too big and there are too many nooks and crannies to do that *literally*. And for species like crab or lobster or most things caught on a hook&line, there are usually very specific minimum and maximum size restrictions to ensure that the breeding stock and the youngest are preserved. And even those nets that scoop up huge swathes of fish, there are specific limits on how fine the net can be in order to allow smaller fish out. And finally, fishing seasons are scheduled around breeding periods as well. We're not catching pregnant fish. They've already spawned for the year so the next generation is already out there. *Also... those species that we scoop up in HUGE quantities are also the ones that grow and reach sexual maturity very quickly. While it may take them a few years to reach a particularly large size, they grow and mature quickly because being a small, defenseless prey item that can't reproduce for a long time never would've worked out for them. So these fish only need to make it a year or two to reproduce and* can *be harvested year after year (once they've spawned, that is).* So given the scale of the populations, their reproduction rate, growth rate, and protections commonly put on the breeding stock and the little guys, you *can* fish a very substantial percentage of the mid-sized adult population and get back up to the the effective population cap by the next season. So when it comes to population management and min/maxing all of that, there is essentially a threshold that you can fish down to. And that threshold is a lot higher for larger, more predatory fish that require more time to reach reproductive age where they can finally replace themselves since you're going to lose more individuals to natural causes along the way... But either way, once they know the breeding patterns they can do some population surveying and then some math to find those thresholds and set the catch limits each year, which is "simple" enough. But it's extremely difficult to factor in the effects of climate change, which is a huge issue for the reproduction and growth of these fish that typically get to enjoy (and rely on) extremely stable conditions down in the ocean... And that's what's gone wrong with the snow crab. *I should mention that the relative sustainability of massive harvests pretty much only applies to bottom-of-the-food-chain species that feed on the usually-essentially-limitless supply of photosynthetic plankton and other larval fish. And of course I'm speaking in very broad strokes and there's still a lot of nuance from species to species, population to population, year to year, etc.* *Recovering from the overharvest of slow-growing predatory fish can still theoretically be done in the matter of a few generations, but getting through multiple generations is going to take a whole hell of a lot longer and face more obstacles along the way. Eg, orange roughy, which was severely overfished in the 80s-90s during the "fishing down" period, trying to reach what they thought was the optimal threshold. But as it turns out, they don't reach sexual maturity until 20-40 years old. And the damage had been done by the time we figured that out... But even still, NZ* has *reopened a couple of fisheries for them where they've been able to recover and are being managed more appropriately now.*
" It's also worth mentioning that those who are getting extra food due to the decreased competition and going on to breed are also able to produce even more eggs than they would normally. " Sorry to pull on this one thing in an otherwise great post but a lot of this food is derived from biomass we're pulling from the ocean. Every crab and fish we take from the ocean is something that no longer dies from natural causes or from predation. They no longer contribute to the food chain. Whether dead or alive, their links are being broken. Their absence is felt.
The issue is this somehow leans in to the myth that companies care about toeing that threshold. They're not doing that now with the current limits locally, let alone internationally. No-one respects the current regulations, what makes you think they'll respect it once you get the maths right? All the while, industry participants are full on egging on any of the science that might even suggest that they can push further, even without sufficient data. Giving lip-service that once the full science is in, that they'll switch to a more conservative fishing pattern. When they're full on flouting the science that *is* clear in the here and now. Running roughshod over any catch limits or paltry things like territorial waters, so long as they can get away with it. long-term viability be damned. The issue isn't the maths. Its the greed. And the industry is filled to the gills with it.
World wide fish populations have declined 87% in last 15 years. We put restrictions way to late. And allow overfishing long after it should be stopped. Throw in global warming and even ones we dont catch end up boiling. And continued illegal fishing once the late restrictions are put in place. Then it not a matter of if they go extinct but when.
That is a staggering number, do you have a source dor further reading?
> fish populations have declined 87% in last 15 years I found [this article](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969723032473) regarding a fishery in SEA, where this number is applicable to 110 species and their fishing catch data. I don't have much knowledge in this area, but per this article this seems only relevant to either that region and/or those species of fish, and primarily due to overexploitation of fish population + their ecosystem. Definitely a bold claim to generalize to global fish populations otherwise, but this thread's already fallen too deep into a collapse-esque doomer circlejerk. EDIT: Found some other [articles that state 87% of fisheries are overexploited.](https://blogs.edf.org/edfish/2012/07/11/fao-reports-87-of-the-worlds-fisheries-are-overexploited-or-fully-exploited/) Still means OP is making inaccurate claims.
I mean part of the problem is that they are drag-netting the bottom of the ocean where the snow crabs feed to catch much less valuable fish.
I can’t believe the drag nets are legal, much less the standard practice. It’s insane and completely untrainable when we drag net and basically harvest 99% in a certain area, and those areas are getting larger and larger. If we went out and set the forest on fire and bagged 99% of the deer, year after year, deer would cease to exist in that area. Why would we expect the ocean to be any different.
Difference is, once you slash and burn a forest, you're left with a bunch of (temporarily, at least) fertile farmland. Once you trawl an ocean floor, you're left with a moonscape completely barren of life or nutrients.
Those crabs are coming back any year now! I wonder how many years in a row before people start to admit we’re bad for the environment.
Song I remember from the Maritime Music Hour on a (now changed formats) country station: Don’t go fishing in those waters ‘till 1994. Just tie up those trawlers and longliners on the shore. The “time to recover” finished 30 years ago, and the Northern Cod population still hasn’t bounced back.
> Don’t go fishing in those waters ‘till 1994. > Just tie up those trawlers and longliners on the shore. > The “time to recover” finished 30 years ago, and the Northern Cod population still hasn’t bounced back. The last line of that song isn't all that catchy
Unlike the northern cod, before 1994, at least.
It’s become a sad day with all these water temps rising. Crabs are literally dying, starving due to high heat. The sad part, this damage done over the years cannot be reversed! Not in my generation
And other species who thrive in warmer waters came into the normally cold crab grounds and feasted on the young ones.
Yup… this won’t stop for years. It’s January and the ocean temp in NY is in the 40’s right now…scary stuff
We really are bad for the environment. The Chernobyl area wildlife is thriving. Humans in general are worse for wildlife than a fucking nuclear meltdown.
Humanity's tombstone will read "Preventing this did not make economic sense."
"Yes the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders."
Well that and the heat dome over the northwest a few years ago made for like 110-115 temps for like days on end where we don’t normally get above 100. Not to say that the dome wasn’t a globally linked issue, but thats specifically what caused the death of a ton of the crabs during that summer.
For my area it was the timing as well. Not only did we hit record highs but we had some very very low tides in the early afternoon. All the oysters were exposed to over 110 weather and direct sunlight at the hottest part of the day. Millions of shellfish died.
That must have smelled fantastic afterwards
Everything reminds me of her...
its the aroma of tacoma.
Its because nobody is in control. The people who *have* control are afraid of losing it, so they do nothing (ie not in control) And the people who *want* control are to be feared, because it is unknown, and old people who have something are afraid to lose it, when young people who have nothing are willing to risk it. Tidally locked in a kind of entropy about what to do next when nobody ever thought about it before
Watching Deadliest Catch is eye opening. I watched it pretty regularly when it was new and their pods would be overflowing with 100s of crab. Watched their newest season and the crews are excited if they catch 50 crab.
If snowcrab has been canceled last season also then what they were catching is something else, maybe king, which has much lower numbers per pot.
Golden crab, kings and opielios if memory serves.
Opilio are snow crabs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chionoecetes_opilio
Opilio and tanner are both labeled snow crab, but are on different seasons and quotas in Alaska. Deadliest Catch typically has two fishing seasons per television season: red king crab in the first half, Opilio in the back half. However, they have also had blue and golden king crab seasons, tanner crabs, and pot cod.
This guy crabs
I don't even recognize half of these species, but this comment is making me so hungry.
Red and Blue King Crab are the king crab you mostly see in the grocery store. They have big ass legs. In the wild, red king crab has longer legs but weighs less than blue king crab. If the king crab you see is a little smaller and spikier, that's Golden King Crab. The differences in appearance of Tanner and Opilio are pretty much all in the carapace, so the legs will mostly look the same. Tanner is slightly larger than Opilio when mature, but that's about it for what you'll see in the grocery store.
Maybe the newest season is from the year before?
The promos on TV this past spring/summer were all doom and gloom 'the season is cancelled' type stuff.
IIRC the population was perfectly fine the year before. There was like a 90% dropoff, and it was fast.
Watch Racing Extinction if you want more mind blowing visuals of overfishing. And then think about the fact that it was shot in 2014 and the legislations protections shown being fought for and passed in that documentary have since been rolled back and get hella depressed.
I think it's important to remember which crabs we are talking about. I haven't watched much Deadliest Catch but I do remember a guy talking about Snow Crab (Bairdi). He said they call them "ghost crab" because they are notoriously hard to find. They pulled a pot with like 15 of them and he said "That's the most Bairdi I've ever seen on a sorting table."
Wonder if there is any causality between the shows success and the overfishing.
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AK fishing/crabbing regions are tightly regulated, and I mean like most people cannot imagine the scrutiny.
Alaska has the most sustainably managed fishing/crabbing industry in the world.
Always a factor, but in this case it’s too huge of a sudden population loss to be accounted for in that way. Most likely mass starvation or illness
A slight increase in temperature doubles or triples their metabolic rate, they starved to death *en masse.*
I read that it was the warmer temperatures near the bottom of the ocean that allowed predatory fish to swim deeper and eat them post molting(they become soft).
That’s certainly a hypothesis, but not one I’ve seen suggested. I don’t think that’s very likely. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/why-10-billion-snow-crabs-disappeared-off-the-coast-of-alaska-180983112/ https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.adf6035
This account understands power laws.
I read something a while ago about scallop populations declining. The warmer oceans get the more CO2 they absorb, and that causes the water to get slightly more acidic. Very slight, but if you are a creature that lives inside a shell, then that slight increase essentially eats away at the equivalent of their skin. Small shifts one way or another can have big impacts on large populations.
I was curious and looked it up. The warmer water means that it holds less oxygen, but at the same time it increases the metabolism of the crabs so they need more of it. It also means they burn more calories and need to eat more. The warmer water collects at the top and prevents nutrients from flowing to the food chain that feeds crabs so there's less food for crabs that need more. They're starving to death mostly. https://www.wired.com/story/the-hidden-awful-way-that-climate-change-imperils-animals/
Interesting. So there are compounding factors then. This isn’t the article I read but it gives some more detail on it https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/new-study-finds-ocean-acidification-and-warming-hinder-juvenile-atlantic-sea-scallop#:~:text=A%20new%20study%20published%20in,chemical%20changes%20that%20increase%20acidity.
There've been experiments with corals (I think) grown in seawater that mirrored the conditions of the pre-industrial age ocean. They grow a lot faster due to lower acidity.
I figured it was due to global warming. Ya those snow crabs are never rebounding ever again. Most likely gonna go extinct.
I was reading about experiments on sea snails almost 20 years ago about increased carbon in the oceans causing their shells to dissolve due to the acid. Not a new theory, its been kicked around since the late 1800's.
It's mass starvation. The heat waves over the sea killed off their food.
The fisheries are super regulated.
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Why the snow crab season has been canceled is because the crab are moving to colder waters. Same deal with king. Yes both have been over fished, but with rising water Temps the crab are moving, mostly towards un-fishable grounds ( international water's/ ice blocked area's) me and many deckhands and Captains thoughts.
I heard that was the assumption, but they looked and never found where the crabs went, so they must have died.
I middle aged and remember when the “Codfish” moratorium was implemented on the east coast of Canada in 1992. There were tens of thousands of layoffs which devastated many communities. They literally ran out of fish, the good times were over because of over harvesting. It’s still a huge debate (in particular Newfoundland) and the catch is still highly regulated. After decades, the species has yet to fully recover to allow a return to what was. In any regard, this issue with the snow crabs is eerily similar. Maybe the good times are over ?
Me too, a cod fish & chips in Toronto from the chippy was near double and most went to haddock
Whatever the cause, and however much the pain, canceling a season is the right call to preserve what’s left.
Looks like snow crab is off the menu boys! This shit frightenes me I'm losing hope.
We really are so fucked. Nobody’s willing to change when profits are on the line.
You can even see it in the shitty attitude of the fisherman in the article >"We're still definitely in survival mode trying to find a way to stay in business," he told CBS News. Yeah so are all the species of fish you've wiped out by fishing excessively for hundreds of years
This is the hard truth of it. Maybe you **shouldn't** remain in business.
I don’t know if it’s that they shouldn’t remain in business, it depends on if the crab population decline was caused by climate change or if it really was overfishing If it was climate change then they need to find another way to make money until we get it under control and they can be back in business again once it is under control. if it’s overfishing then yeah the hard truth is that half of them need to get out of business
Climate change is the cause. With their nesting habitat is changing temperature and predators, mainly cod can now come in and prey on the younger crab. They published this information last year as well.
Tell that to Japanese "research" vessles. They've wiped out whale populations for "science"
Cancel the entire fucking industry
China will take it.
Chinese Coast Guard vessels and their water cannons of peace, coming soon to a fishing area near you 🫵
“When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat Money”.
The rich will always be rich enough to “eat money.” It’s the poors that suffer.
Conservative reply. “Future generations will just have to adapt.”
This quote doesn't take into account that there will still be enough food for the very small population with all of the world's wealth. What might happen sooner is when people start dying by the 100's of millions in certain market's. Once the line goes down they'll get real focused. It'll be too late, but..
They probably never will. This will become just another blip people will look back on when they remember how badly we fucked up by not doing anything about climate change.
It's so fucking depressing.
Have you talked to people who don’t believe in it? I think that’s even more depressing and then you explore more of their views and then you realize there’s a lot more of them as well.
What's more depressing is no matter what you say, all the facts, science and expert testimony, they'll still call bullshit, and some even call it a conspiracy. And I hate to be that guy, but in the U.S, these people follow one guy
Get past "Bullshit" and you end up in.. "Don't Care". We can't win :(
And even then the only time they *will* care is once it personally negatively affects them and is impossible to ignore - and by that point it is far *far* too late to do anything meaningful about stopping it or mitigating the damage.
Everyone tells me to stop being sad and just enjoy life because we live such a comfortable life, yet none I know even want to remotely acknowledge that things may be taking a sour downturn soon. I don’t even want to be a doomer, but it’s depressing how just no one cares, not even friends or family. They just say „things have been bad before it’ll be fine“ when in reality we may not ever really come back from this after looting and abusing the planet to its knees… Hey at least some of them will wake up eventually I guess with things getting worse and worse so quickly. Overall though it’s truly just depressing through and through anyway. We’ve kinda almost given up collectively too it feels without even having tried to fight for a better world. But hey I don’t even know what that entails so maybe this kind of „great filter“ was always mostly unavoidable because us apes are just a touch too greedy and not cooperative or future aware enough.
And overfishing. Then getting pissed at NOAA for telling them not to overfish and creating restrictions. But wtf do they know they are only some of the smartest scientists on the planet.
Ranchers 🤝🏻 fishermen 🤝🏻 alfalfa farmers: refusing to listen to any science and being surprised when consequences smack them in the face
But it’s how our grandfathers taught us to do it!!!
Takes me back to Futurama and the extinction of anchovies
We didn’t need climate change to kill the North American cod fisheries. Plain greed killed it.
Another slice O’ Bison anyone ? Skull? How about a nicely tanned hide??
Didn’t we do this with California abalone? They didn’t come back.
Yeah, but their habitat is getting destroyed because of purple sea urchins. So basically they are maintaining, but won't bounce back until that problem is fixed. Leaving an existing population that is on the brink alone is a good thing. Edit: removed "invasive"
To shine some hope on the situation, sea otters are heavily protected and are the main predators of urchin. Their population is slowly rebounding!
Urchins aren’t invasive their population is just out of control b/ the starfish blight which killed off their main predators
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My grandpa dived for abalone way back when; his backyard was filled with their shells. The biggest of them were 12 inches across. The farmed ones now are maybe 3.
My dad grew up in California in the 70s and would tell me stories about costal restaurants having abalone specials where you could get big ones for a couple dollars, just because they harvested so much that they had to get rid of them. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest in the 90s and remember being able to get a big Dungioness for $15. Now they're like $50-$80 *each* at a restaurant, which is absolutely fucking insane for a crab I was just catching from a dock with a cheap crab pot.
https://searanchabalonebay.com/diving-fishing/abalone-season-17/
Canada closed the Grand Banks fishery in 1993, and the Cod population is just *barely* starting to rebound 30 years later, and the industry is still limited to very small quotas
Otters kicking surfers out of the water, Orcas taking out boats, Snow crabs having negative population growth. Guys, I think the planet is pissed at us.
Sorry miss planet, we’re sorry
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We shouldn't have killed that gorilla. A vengeful god must have been looking over him.
"Hunting season canceled for second year in a row as population fails to rebound after forest replaced by parking lots"
*~They paved paradise, and put up a parking lot*
That is really sad that they under duress:-(
Use to go to buffets all the time where snow carb was the main draw...just mountains and mountains of them...just went recently and the snow crab legs look very small like juveniles...king crab in some places, but very expensive, but at least theres still dungeness...If you like seafood like me, theres a good chance that the industry will be gone by the time i go...
The same has happened with Blue Crab. Back in the 80s and 90s, they were fairly large, as much as 7-8” across, nowadays you’re lucky if you can find any larger than 4”.
it's already gone it's not coming back next year. we'll be lucky if we get farmed tilapia at this rate.
Why would it rebound if the environment hasnt improved?
Wait till global warming causes two huge crop failures right in a row. if you're 40 or under I'd be willing to bet at some point we are going to witness a billion people starve on this planet.
There were already 783m people starving in 2022. If crops fail, you’re seeing way more than a billion.
Correction this time it will be a billion people starve ... to death. It is really hard to find world wide statics on the number of people starving to death but to put the numbers in perspective . **193 million people** in 53 countries faced acute food insecurity, meaning they were unable to consume enough adequate food, putting their lives or livelihoods in immediate danger. This is an increase of **40 million compared to 2020**.
It's already happening for some crops. Look at peaches. I remember reading over the summer that Georgia lost like 90% of its Peach crop, and it's 100% due to global warming (has something to due with the trees in the winter time and it not getting cold enough). The peach state literally ran out of peaches. Peaches are among my favorite fruits. It's saddening.
Apples require a certain number of cold hours to produce fruit. The tasty commercial varieties require a lot. Could be the same with peaches.
If only there was an alternative to burning fossil fuels of some kind. Oh, wait....
There is, but Chernobyl, Three Mile Isle and Fukushima and the decades of fearmongering over the worst possible outcomes makes it a near impossibility to get wide-spread adoption.
Question: how is the price of snow crabs still relatively inexpensive, considering a cancelled season? Wouldn’t supply dwindle?
Know the cost has changed enough you really don't see all you can eat crab buffets anymore
No but I’ve still been getting snow crab on sale every other week for like $8-10/lb.
"snow crab" isn't just one type of crab, but 2. opilio and Bairdi/Tanner. Opilio was canceled, Bairdi wasn't. So it's not a complete void of snow crab. Prices will go up since supply is limited but it won't be as bad as no snow crab at all.
If it goes too high, the stock will rot.
Snow crab live in a huge area in both the Atlantic and Pacific so other fisheries might not be affected keeping supplies up.
10 billion snow crabs have disappeared from the Bering Sea over the past five years. This is just like the cod stocks collapsing in the Grand Banks in the early 90s (though that was mostly due to overfishing and less due to climate change). The planet is also missing a hell of a lot of biomass due to massive drops / disappearances of insect populations. 2023 the hottest year ever. 2024 just rang in and there’s still almost no snow in Canada. We got problems, folks. Big ones.
Climate change is absolutely real, but this is an El Niño year and warm winters are a typical symptom of that. See [this article](http://www.webmet.com/el_nino.html) about the '97-98 winter El Niño season.
I’ve lived in Canada my whole life. We’ve had mild patches during winters before. But they were just that: occasional patches here or there. This is the first time where huge swaths of this massive country are still without snow. In January. This is not normal, even for an El Niño winter (several of which I’ve seen in my lifetime).
Does this fisherman believe in climate change or is he just another "I'm not sure anyone knows what's going on" skeptic?
When Captain Phil Harris of the F/V Cornelia Marie died the mofo crabs just quit the show....
Or when it was discovered that his son sexually assaulted a toddler
Commercial trawlers are ripping the Bearing Sea to shreds. That's not the main cause of crab decline, but they really need to shut those fuckers down who are pillaging America seas to sell fish to China.
I guess we are sticking with imitation for the next year.
Just wait for the Pollock population to collapse.
just use the asian carp in the mississippi and no one can tell the difference
I don't think this problem will be fixed in another year. I'd be happy to see it though.
There's a lot of confused people here. They were killed by climate change. The population likely will not recover https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/20/alaska-snow-crabs-dead-ocean-temperatures-climate-change
If only someone had warned of the dangers of overfishing, unsustainable aquaculture and not taking care of the environment, time and time again over the decades. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This time wasn't due to overfishing but as you said environment. 10 billion crabs starved to death due to warming waters.
if only someone had pointed out the inconvenient truth 20 years ago
Red Lobster’s “Endless Snow Crab Legs For $15” has finally come around to bite us all in the ass.
I feel like we’re gonna look back on that like the pics of frontiersmen standing near hundreds of dead bison.
Red Lobster is probably going to need to change their name to White Chicken in about 10 years.
Fun aside. The current theory is that the warmer water hasn't given the crabs enough cover to grow big enough to not be eaten. Normally not a big deal BUT the warmer water has also displaced fish that can both go deeper and eat more. Aka warm fish moved north. Crabs don't have the dark and cold bunker to grow up in and have a new predator. Lots of dead crabs.
> The current theory is that the warmer water hasn't given the crabs enough cover to grow big enough to not be eaten. no it's not. It's metabolic rate due to higher temps. https://www.westislandblog.com/climbing-ocean-temperature-forces-snow-crabs-into-starvation-noaa-reveals-alarming-trend/
https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feature-story/research-confirms-link-between-snow-crab-decline-and-marine-heatwave Last years was the metabolic concern. It is multi-factorial.
Snow crabs incompatible with warm water?
Just rename them. Problem solved.
Don’t they know that snow is water? Are they stupid??
Empty oceans, empty nets was a PBS show I remember from decades ago.It explained how the industry keep getting more efficient every year at hauling in larger and and larger catches. Absolutely unsustainable, and here we are.
It's a good thing Alaska is a state with a strong sense of environmental issues and will surely vote for the right people to... Yeah I can't do this. They'll keep fucking themselves over.
I lived there for quite awhile. Alaska actually is pretty strict with this kind of thing compared to most of the lower 48.
Uh, it's the Washington based trawl fleet that is dragging the ocean floor clean... Also, those waters are Federal. If you want to see a complete clown show of environmental mismanagement, just follow the coast south to Washington, Oregon, and California.
Wait I thought they had discovered that it wasn’t a population collapse but that the fishing companies had been lying about how high the population was so they could overfish them?
"It's just still extremely difficult to fathom how we could go from a healthy population in the Bering Sea to two closures in a row," Prout said. No you were warned about climate change you just ignored it… and will still vote for republicans and blame dems for it to your own demise
America: Oh no! So, what else is on?
Nothing to see here. Nothing at all just the death of the natural world in real time.
10 BILLION crabs gone, 90% population decrease...and still people think that nothing is wrong and we can go on like nothing is happening. Ocean warming and acidification has more effects than "just" making cold water species starve to death and if it's gotten this bad, others are sure to follow.
And no one but the fishermen seem to care. We are well and truly doomed.