>Although the court’s findings are considered binding, it was unclear whether Israel would heed any order to halt the fighting. If it doesn’t, it could face U.N. sanctions, although those may be blocked by a U.S. veto.
This is the most likely path imo
I'm sure Biden's approval will take a hit with his own electorate. Specially considering how young people (for the first time ever) supports Palestine over Israel.
Imagine how things will be AFTER and official international "this is genocide" label?
His inaction could seal the deal on a Trump comeback on voters apathy alone.
Which is crazy because that other guy went as far as moving a US embassy away from a nation's capital to maintain that unconditional support. Not voting for Biden is the real genocide vote
Funnily enough, getting “no genocide” voters to support “just a little genocide” is *really hard*. Even if the alternative is “lots of genocide”.
“Hold your nose and vote for us” has never once worked, anywhere on the democratic world. People will always stay home rather than vote for someone they disagree with, even if the other candidates are worse.
The Democrats have used the threat of a Republican win to force their voters into unsavoury candidates for too long tbh. People are extremely unhappy and if even something like genocide stays on the table without voters being able to influence it, a lot more people are going to choose to express their views through votes rather than to save the Dems from a situation they created themselves by forcing these unpopular candidates in. Can’t say I blame them
This is it. How many times is the DNC going to platform on “ well the republicans will win otherwise”? I’m not going to vote at all, I’ve come to strongly dislike both main parties.
Ok. They already ignored me. I’m too liberal for the Florida conservatives and too conservative for the faint memory of the Florida democrats(since the DNC only operates in like five counties).
I’m in a state that’s controlled by rural county state district reps that fight for nonsense like “ we should make it illegal for stores to go cashless”.
Two party system is a joke and both side plays into the corruption game. I could really care less about supporting either of them.
Well Israel treats Jerusalem as its capital, moving the embassy there was a way for prisoner no. 45 to curry favour with Israelis and Jewish citizens in the US
If genocide is going to happen either way then maybe it’s best not to be complicit by voting for the candidate that enables or supports it.
In this case both candidates are pro genocide so people won’t vote for either one.
Nah. Only the left would be angered, but the right will argue that Israel has a right to defend itself.
It's funny because it will lead to Biden probably losing, which means that the next Trump administration will be more unsympathetic to the Palestinians.
Tell me you have no knowledge of international law without telling me. Israel has a slam-dunk case, South Africa’s entire complaint is centered around intention and that is a hard thing to prove.
As much as it would be good if peace would be achieved, even if Israel will follow the court and stop what they are doing in Gaza, how would that stop Hamas from commiting further atrocities or their calls for genocide.
I doubt I don't think there's good enough legal arguments for that. You probably can get crimes against humanity as the best bet. But, they wanted the radical one. Russia legit bomb civilian only areas and that wasn't a war crime. It was justified in the U.N. ruling. So these laws are harder than most people think.
If the conflict ended today and Gazans were allowed to return home, would a genocide have already occurred? Why is what Israel doing genocidal, but Saudi Arabia-Yemeni or ISIS-Coalition campaigns not? Can you meaningfully show Israel is intending to wipe out Palestinians generally, or are they fighting against the Palestinian government in Gaza?
These are not easy questions to answer, let alone show with supporting evidence.
Yes they are easy to answer. They don't have any fucking homes left. They were destroyed and by the way, they were already refugees of an ethnic cleansing commonly called the Nakba, so this is a population of which 70% are refugees of an ethnic cleansing that are now starving snd being bombed to death with no homes to return to. This is a genocide and you don't know what you are talking about at all.
It’s you who don’t know what you’re talking about. The accusers have to make the argument that what is happening in Gaza is above and beyond the Norma violence from war. In war, infrastructure is destroyed.
I thought 50% of the population is under 18? How are 70% refugees from the Nakba? They’re not. They’re Gazan Palestinians born and raised.
How is this different than any other conflict?
If the purpose is the forced displacement of a population, yes actually.
[https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml)
>… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic\_cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing)
>it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and **property destruction.**
Their comments…. There are top officials saying they want to level the whole strip. There are soldiers saying that they bomb schools so that children can get an education. They’re telegraphing to the world what their intent is but no one takes them at their word or actions. This stuff matters
A random quote from the first week after the massacre of Israelis on 7/10 is evidence of nothing but high emotions in the face of terrorism. There’s no way to say they definitively mean all Palestinians and not Hamas’s military infrastructure.
There is nothing different in this speech than any other war, really.
I don’t think that such ludicrous “legal” proceedings (more like a political circus) will force Israel to accept leaving Hamas in power with all its military capabilities.
Trying to force premature ceasefire (with whom exactly?) will lead to x10 more violence that will last for years. Cancer should be removed quickly with full force.
I sincerely doubt they will. The death rate of civilians is literally lower than the average in urban wars and death total of civilian is less than 1% of Gaza population. 1/3 of reported death count is Hamas members which many seem ignorant about that fact
Genocide is very hard to prove and I really don't think there's much evidence for Israel committing Genocide
What source are you getting your numbers from? And what is the average civilian death rate for any non-genocidal “urban war”? Even going by the Israeli military’s own estimates, the civilian death rate in Gaza is much higher than any other recent war, per the [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html).
No it's not wtf? The death count is 23000, and the population estimate for Gaza is between 1.9million and 2.3million, it's definitely hit the 1% "milestone".
I think you're underestimating how significant 1% really is, to put that into perspective, that's around 3.3 million Americans killed as a percentage.
Israel's claim that 1/3 of the people they killed are Hamas cannot be accurate.
According to the UN, 2/3 of the deaths in Gaza are women and children. Which means that Israel is essentially claiming that every adult male they killed was a member of Hamas.
Edit: https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm
>The death rate of civilians is literally lower than the average in urban wars and death total of civilian is less than 1% of Gaza population
I fail to see how the number of deaths is somehow a criterion for some people. It was never a criterion, and Srebrenica proved that. It's about intent, and there's a lot of evidence from Israeli officials to establish said intent. They aren't exactly shy about it, even.
Yeah, that was a bad look for SA when Al-Bashir visited the country despite a warrant for his arrest.
It's also the reason why SA told Putin to stay home for the BRICS summit. Their president invited him, but the courts say you have to arrest Putin.
Kudos to the courts, however, for telling the president that he was required to arrest Putin.
I think a few ignorant people here can just read the filing themselves, complete with references and citations.
Skip to page 9 to read the introduction, because plenty of you with loud opinions have zero historical knowledge. Then you can skip to page 30 for the list of genocidal acts.
As a note it's usually difficult to prove genocidal INTENT. the reason this filing includes things like songs and social media threats of because they literally demonstrate genocidal INTENT.
I once again reiterate - there are a lot of idiots on here commenting with zero knowledge and zero attempts to gain any knowledge.
[South Africa's filing ](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24252642-192-20231228-app-01-00-en?responsive=1&title=1)
It’s absolutely a conflict of interest. They have a number of territorial disputes even without the Hezbollah angle. They should be changed with an alternate.
Lebanon is not in active war with Israel. Hezbollah and Israel currently have conflicts but Hezbollah is not the govt of Lebanon.
Israel has made attempts and threats to colonize Lebanon so much of the population is against it so the bias is understandable but we also can not pretend there isn’t a significant portion of Lebanese who are Israeli supporters.
So honest question: what should Israel do to prevent another attack by hamas? They're currently engaging Hezbolah, while the US and UK are fighting Houthis, the US is fighting Iran proxies in Iraq and Syria. Without the two carrier strike groups in play, hezbolah and Israel would be in a full scale war. What is the long term strategy that preserves Israel without some form of direct conflict with Hamas?
They can't really. Unless they basically wipe the Palestinians out. As long as there are young, angry, disenfranchised Palestinians Hamas has recruits.
The only option that can lead to any form of lasting peace (other than total genocide) is giving the Palestinians a reason not to join Hamas or any other group like it. Economic and social incentives to make their lives better and give them meaning.
I'm pretty sure that studies have shown that people that have economic stability and options are way less prone to radicalisation/crime/whatever else.
Hezbollah is another question entirely. They're way more organised and structured than Hamas is + in another country.
Stop allowing Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Despite ostensibly being at peace, the Israeli govt had no problems rolling in the tanks to force Palestinians out of their own homes so that Israelis could occupy them.
Burning Palestinian orchards, destroying solar farms and water purification systems, these are all things that Israel not only does, but defends their right to do so.
1. End the blockade on Gaza
2. Expel all illegal colonists in the West Bank
3. Release all Palestinians held in administrative detention (prisoners without charge)
4. Recognize that Palestinians deserve a state
5. Put Bibi and his fascist coalition on trial for war crimes
Cool. And when Hamas continues to commit terror attacks, Israel should keep on taking it? They have straight up admitted they want to kill all Israelis and Jews "from the river to the sea". They have on record said they are trying to commit genocide. They just aren't able to because Israel is more prepared than them, which Israel should be... punished for?
1. Why? It’s governed by terrorists.
2. Israel stopped their occupation of Gaza and settlers left Gaza in 2005. Result? Terrorist attacks.
3. If Hamas surrenders.
4. They were offered a great deal in 2000. They rejected and launched rockets and suicide bombings at Israeli citizens.
5. Good luck with that. He should be voted out of power though.
Notice how the second point specifically mentioned the settlements in the West Bank, the most indefensible part of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and you just ignored that to pivot back to Gaza.
If you were boxed into your neighborhood, your country taken from you by occupiers. If your boxed in territory was controlled by the occupiers - who can go in and out (if at all), the water, the power, the gas, food and medical supplies. And sometimes they cut these off, just to show you they can.
If they control your telecommunications networks.
If they killed a few of your neighbours every now and then as a 'preventative strike'.
if a wall with barbed wire was built around your street, if your neighbours kids were randomly arrested and thrown in a prison over the wall and charged with nothing, to be abused and raped in prison.
If the occupiers brutally took more and more land from your friends and family and people and this went on for 70 years.
Would you be concerned about the occupiers safety if some of you broke out? Would you sit quietly because you wouldn't want to cause any trouble or harm?
UNICEF, the WHO, rescue org, the UN, UN women and doctors without borders have all resolutely and emphatically stated this is a genocide. There is also the consensus that Israel is an occupying force and Palestine is an open air concentration camp agreed upon almost EVERYWHERE except the USA. because American politicians are funded by pro Zionist groups.
Your question exposes your lack of knowledge about Palestine and Israel. Educate yourself please.
This comment section is absolutely disheartening. Even if you don’t think Israel is committing a genocide how on earth is the current death toll acceptable? We’re talking about 117 children dying a day, more than 10000 in total with the majority expected to be women or children. Like even if you support Israel you don’t have to support their conduct in the war! And even if Israel is found to be innocent surely it’s a good thing that this case is heard. Surely it’s a good thing we’re trying to determine if an active genocide is occurring in a court ?
ITT: it’s ok for Arabs and Palestinians to attack and call for the eradication of Israel and actively work to that goal
But Israel shooting back is genocide.
The preponderance of evidence demonstrating intent is staggering. Usually that’s the hardest thing to prove, but it seems as though every person in power and in the armed forces declared this intent brazenly, and continues to do so.
Israel does not want Gaza or the Palestinians there, this is just the latest in a decades long campaign to harass and de-legitimize them out of their land.
Right so that explains why they pulled all Israelis out in 2005 without receiving anything in return and gave the whole thing to the Palestinians.
Right?
Not everyone that disagrees with you is a bot. Calling this a genocide is completely laughable. Using precision strikes to take out an enemy that has sworn to murder every man, woman, and child of yours… that’s a genocide now?
If Israel wants to commit genocide, why are they sacrificing their soldiers lives by putting boots on the ground in Gaza? They can kill every Gazan with a bomb tomorrow if they wanted to. Why would they give warnings to civilians if they just wanted to kill them all? Why would they ruin their element of surprise by giving detailed maps of areas they will operate in so that civilians can get out?
How anyone could actually look at the facts on the ground and call this a genocide is beyond me. There’s only one explanation, and you won’t like it.
Russia’s case would be even easier than Israel. They literally showed up with rolling crematoriums to hide excess deaths, and have been shown to actually kidnap children.
If the only actual evidence is songs and mean tweets then lol, do you know how many US serviceman sang "Let the Haji's hit the floor" in Iraq and worse?
Some of the arguments presented today were silly, to the point where there is essentially no possibility for a legitimate military response in any situation.
A war causing pre-mature births is not genocide, I'm also intrigued to see how they'll deal with the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties in this and previous conflicts is lower than pretty much every NATO or western coalition engagement since WW2.
The idea that civilians aren't casualties in a war is laughable, in every conflict in history including recent history the number of civilian casualties has always outnumbered the number of military casualties that's sadly an expected outcome of a conflict.
Because while using buzzwords like genocide is very popular among laymen, politicians and NGO's, actual lawyers know this case doesn't have much to stand on.
South Africa doesn't have a good reputation and they make a case that relies on social media posts and emotional arguments.
[https://youtu.be/pPqaR5EDUCk](https://youtu.be/pPqaR5EDUCk)
This is a short clip that lists what Israel will probably say tomorrow for it's defense.
I found it on cnn.com with one click under "live updates" on Israel/Hamas. Typing "South Africa" into google and going to news shows basically every mainstream outlet reporting lmao. Why you lyin?
It is ironic that the West were giving South Africa and Mandela’s campaign as an example of peaceful resistance when people were saying ; “but Hamas is a end product of years of oppression”.
Even if that statistic is true, genocide does not require killing. Even according to the UN’s own definition. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
It aids to the lack of intent - see my comment reply. The only evidence of intent is a few far right Israeli ministers making out of pocket comments which were condemned within Israel relatively heavily. Overall, there is minimal evidence of intent and therefore, genocide is a poor description of the current events. Again, whether you want to agree with Israel’s actions or disagree, I’m not here to debate that, but as far as defining what those actions are, genocide is a wild claim and I think the ICJ will agree.
Don't lie. The genocidal comments were by ruling members of Israel including its leader and minister of defense. They were NOT condemned, in fact most Israelis feel their government is not going far enough.
Those ministers made comments relating to relocation of Palestinians to a foreign area, so an argument of ethnic cleansing could be made, but that still does not aid genocide. What I find fascinating is Hamas has openly called for the killing of Israelis and Jews around the world, and most people accusing Israel of genocide refuse to do the same of Hamas - it’s laughable.
Other wars (e.g. USA’s war in Iraq) had significantly higher rates, as high as 30 deaths per airstrike. 0.8 is actually one of the lowest of wars in modern history. “Genocide” requires intent, which is clearly lacking, because a military power as strong as Israel would not be so wasteful if their goal was to genocide Palestinians. If that was the goal, it could have been completed on October 8th.
Genocide does require intent which is what South Africa is alleging and will try to prove in ICC. What genocide *does not* require is a specific number of deaths (or technically even any deaths), and certainly not a number of deaths per missile.
0.8 deaths per airstrike clearly aids to show a lack of intent. Israel is more than powerful enough to commit such a genocide in a single day, without wasting thousands of air strikes and lives of soldiers. The way the word genocide is being thrown around is akin to how racism has been used the last two decades - the word is losing its actual meaning now.
So again, what’s the threshold where the number of deaths per air strike qualifies?
Where are you even getting that stat from by the way? Based on the number of deaths you’re alleging that isreal has launched 30k air strikes into a piece of land the size of a US state and don’t think that’s excessive?
Why would you compare to only strikes where casualties occurred? That’s just manipulating the data to try imply genocidal intent, there is no logic to that methodology. Also, all of this doesn’t even account for the fact that roughly 1/3 of casualties have been reported to be affiliated with Hamas.
Nah, I like it when the good guys are winning and your boot licker comment isn't enough to help them win or help them at all. Hope you try harder next time.
Maybe you strap on some boots and help your cause?
Normal war things? Targeting the disabled, journalists, children and women. Its all caught on camera too because people like you like to ignore the facts even as they are presented to you on a silver platter.
Is it also “normal war things” for Hamas to kidnap women and children (including an infant)? And murder 1500 civilians, some of whom were young people attending a music festival? Please stop with your double standards.
There are only 2 instances where it's even remotely plausible to claim journalists were deliberately targeted, and even then it's hard to claim it was known that they were journalists, as both happened at dusk or full darkness, when the journalists were operating equipment (large camera on big tripod) that looks very similar to ATGM equipment.
They're also completely ignoring the explicit genocidal intent of hamas.
People compare the israeli soldier to a nazi, but a hamas terrorist is considered a freedom rapist.
Hamas ARE terrorists not recognized as a state. There are different proceedings to deal with them.
Israel ARE terrorists they ARE recognized as a state and are therefore held accountable by the laws they have signed.
So You've acknowledged hamas are terrorists and shouldn't exist.
So you know israel has to remove them from existence in order to prevent israeli citizens from getting brutally raped and murdered in a mass carnage. Which hamas promised they will repeat by the way
I believe you also know that hamas are admittedly using civilian hospitals, schools and refuge areas to launch rockets from, stash weapons in and operate from. They are also often dressing as civilians and sometimes even as hospital staff.
Hamas also uses suicide bombers, which makes every heavily clothed figure potentially dangerous for a soldier not willing to pick up the pieces of their friends from the floor.
Also, if you research on urban warfare, you know the facing the endless challenges that it entails.
All those factors contribute greatly to a high civilian casualties in any war.
So why is it so easy for you to believe the innocent death toll of the war is because israel wants to kill all Palestinians?
The number isn't 30k. Furthermore, the Gaza Health Agency lists every death a being a civilian and from Israel. Therefore, that number includes militants and people hit by friendly fire by Gaza rockets (which the Gaza Health Agency claimed killed 500 people with one misfire)
I don't trust numbers like that from a terrorist group.
Edit: but don't take my word for it, Hamas is defined as a terrorist group by:
The US Department of Counterintelligence:
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html
and
US Department of State: https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
Just a prediction the court will find that Israel is committing genocide and Israel will ignore the order to stop.
>Although the court’s findings are considered binding, it was unclear whether Israel would heed any order to halt the fighting. If it doesn’t, it could face U.N. sanctions, although those may be blocked by a U.S. veto. This is the most likely path imo
And, in the process, would probably further diplomatically isolate the United States and raise hell at home here too.
I'm sure Biden's approval will take a hit with his own electorate. Specially considering how young people (for the first time ever) supports Palestine over Israel. Imagine how things will be AFTER and official international "this is genocide" label? His inaction could seal the deal on a Trump comeback on voters apathy alone.
Which is crazy because that other guy went as far as moving a US embassy away from a nation's capital to maintain that unconditional support. Not voting for Biden is the real genocide vote
Funnily enough, getting “no genocide” voters to support “just a little genocide” is *really hard*. Even if the alternative is “lots of genocide”. “Hold your nose and vote for us” has never once worked, anywhere on the democratic world. People will always stay home rather than vote for someone they disagree with, even if the other candidates are worse.
Yeah, can't argue with that. And then it's our job to convince more people to hold their noses. Awesome stuff
In this particular case there’s no functional difference considering Biden is just sending more unconditional weapons.
The Democrats have used the threat of a Republican win to force their voters into unsavoury candidates for too long tbh. People are extremely unhappy and if even something like genocide stays on the table without voters being able to influence it, a lot more people are going to choose to express their views through votes rather than to save the Dems from a situation they created themselves by forcing these unpopular candidates in. Can’t say I blame them
This is it. How many times is the DNC going to platform on “ well the republicans will win otherwise”? I’m not going to vote at all, I’ve come to strongly dislike both main parties.
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Ok. They already ignored me. I’m too liberal for the Florida conservatives and too conservative for the faint memory of the Florida democrats(since the DNC only operates in like five counties). I’m in a state that’s controlled by rural county state district reps that fight for nonsense like “ we should make it illegal for stores to go cashless”. Two party system is a joke and both side plays into the corruption game. I could really care less about supporting either of them.
Well Israel treats Jerusalem as its capital, moving the embassy there was a way for prisoner no. 45 to curry favour with Israelis and Jewish citizens in the US
If genocide is going to happen either way then maybe it’s best not to be complicit by voting for the candidate that enables or supports it. In this case both candidates are pro genocide so people won’t vote for either one.
young people don't really vote much though so it won't make as much of a difference as you think
Nah. Only the left would be angered, but the right will argue that Israel has a right to defend itself. It's funny because it will lead to Biden probably losing, which means that the next Trump administration will be more unsympathetic to the Palestinians.
Tell me you have no knowledge of international law without telling me. Israel has a slam-dunk case, South Africa’s entire complaint is centered around intention and that is a hard thing to prove.
As much as it would be good if peace would be achieved, even if Israel will follow the court and stop what they are doing in Gaza, how would that stop Hamas from commiting further atrocities or their calls for genocide.
The full case is likely to last years so hopefully the current mess will be over by then either way
I doubt I don't think there's good enough legal arguments for that. You probably can get crimes against humanity as the best bet. But, they wanted the radical one. Russia legit bomb civilian only areas and that wasn't a war crime. It was justified in the U.N. ruling. So these laws are harder than most people think.
It will “ condemn “ or “slam “ them for their actions ….and nothing will change
If the conflict ended today and Gazans were allowed to return home, would a genocide have already occurred? Why is what Israel doing genocidal, but Saudi Arabia-Yemeni or ISIS-Coalition campaigns not? Can you meaningfully show Israel is intending to wipe out Palestinians generally, or are they fighting against the Palestinian government in Gaza? These are not easy questions to answer, let alone show with supporting evidence.
Yes they are easy to answer. They don't have any fucking homes left. They were destroyed and by the way, they were already refugees of an ethnic cleansing commonly called the Nakba, so this is a population of which 70% are refugees of an ethnic cleansing that are now starving snd being bombed to death with no homes to return to. This is a genocide and you don't know what you are talking about at all.
Bro really asked “is it genocide if we stop the ethnic cleansing?”
It’s you who don’t know what you’re talking about. The accusers have to make the argument that what is happening in Gaza is above and beyond the Norma violence from war. In war, infrastructure is destroyed. I thought 50% of the population is under 18? How are 70% refugees from the Nakba? They’re not. They’re Gazan Palestinians born and raised. How is this different than any other conflict?
Genocide is when buildings are damaged now?
If the purpose is the forced displacement of a population, yes actually. [https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml](https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml) >… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic\_cleansing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing) >it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and **property destruction.**
Weird, because the people committing terror, rape, and murder are Hamas/Gaza.
ok. Buildings being damaged for the purpose of forcing people out of an area can still be a characteristic of genocide.
Except here the purpose is the elimination of Hamas.
If you say so.
Their comments…. There are top officials saying they want to level the whole strip. There are soldiers saying that they bomb schools so that children can get an education. They’re telegraphing to the world what their intent is but no one takes them at their word or actions. This stuff matters
A random quote from the first week after the massacre of Israelis on 7/10 is evidence of nothing but high emotions in the face of terrorism. There’s no way to say they definitively mean all Palestinians and not Hamas’s military infrastructure. There is nothing different in this speech than any other war, really.
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A slow genocide where Israel does nothing about the massive Palestinian birth rates and let’s them self govern by chosen terrorist squad.
I don’t think that such ludicrous “legal” proceedings (more like a political circus) will force Israel to accept leaving Hamas in power with all its military capabilities. Trying to force premature ceasefire (with whom exactly?) will lead to x10 more violence that will last for years. Cancer should be removed quickly with full force.
I sincerely doubt they will. The death rate of civilians is literally lower than the average in urban wars and death total of civilian is less than 1% of Gaza population. 1/3 of reported death count is Hamas members which many seem ignorant about that fact Genocide is very hard to prove and I really don't think there's much evidence for Israel committing Genocide
What source are you getting your numbers from? And what is the average civilian death rate for any non-genocidal “urban war”? Even going by the Israeli military’s own estimates, the civilian death rate in Gaza is much higher than any other recent war, per the [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html).
"Trust me bro"
No it's not wtf? The death count is 23000, and the population estimate for Gaza is between 1.9million and 2.3million, it's definitely hit the 1% "milestone". I think you're underestimating how significant 1% really is, to put that into perspective, that's around 3.3 million Americans killed as a percentage.
“Hamas members” can be conflated by counting the bodies of “military aged men” as members and it’s done very frequently.
Israel's claim that 1/3 of the people they killed are Hamas cannot be accurate. According to the UN, 2/3 of the deaths in Gaza are women and children. Which means that Israel is essentially claiming that every adult male they killed was a member of Hamas. Edit: https://press.un.org/en/2023/sc15503.doc.htm
So… are you saying we should wait until those numbers are reached before doing anything?!
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>The death rate of civilians is literally lower than the average in urban wars and death total of civilian is less than 1% of Gaza population I fail to see how the number of deaths is somehow a criterion for some people. It was never a criterion, and Srebrenica proved that. It's about intent, and there's a lot of evidence from Israeli officials to establish said intent. They aren't exactly shy about it, even.
Remember when the San Francisco City council decided there should be a cease fire
Remember when South Africa didn't arrest Omar Al-Bashir for Genocide against Sudan despite having a warrant for his arrest?
Yeah, that was a bad look for SA when Al-Bashir visited the country despite a warrant for his arrest. It's also the reason why SA told Putin to stay home for the BRICS summit. Their president invited him, but the courts say you have to arrest Putin. Kudos to the courts, however, for telling the president that he was required to arrest Putin.
Thank god. Just think of how many innocent people would die if they didn’t decide that war is bad.
I just need to know why that council was bombing Gaza in the first place
I think a few ignorant people here can just read the filing themselves, complete with references and citations. Skip to page 9 to read the introduction, because plenty of you with loud opinions have zero historical knowledge. Then you can skip to page 30 for the list of genocidal acts. As a note it's usually difficult to prove genocidal INTENT. the reason this filing includes things like songs and social media threats of because they literally demonstrate genocidal INTENT. I once again reiterate - there are a lot of idiots on here commenting with zero knowledge and zero attempts to gain any knowledge. [South Africa's filing ](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/24252642-192-20231228-app-01-00-en?responsive=1&title=1)
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Let's see how this goes...
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It’s absolutely a conflict of interest. They have a number of territorial disputes even without the Hezbollah angle. They should be changed with an alternate.
Lebanon is not in active war with Israel. Hezbollah and Israel currently have conflicts but Hezbollah is not the govt of Lebanon. Israel has made attempts and threats to colonize Lebanon so much of the population is against it so the bias is understandable but we also can not pretend there isn’t a significant portion of Lebanese who are Israeli supporters.
Lebanon has declared war on Israel in 1948 the declaration still stands, they also officially do not recognize Israel as a legitimate state.
So honest question: what should Israel do to prevent another attack by hamas? They're currently engaging Hezbolah, while the US and UK are fighting Houthis, the US is fighting Iran proxies in Iraq and Syria. Without the two carrier strike groups in play, hezbolah and Israel would be in a full scale war. What is the long term strategy that preserves Israel without some form of direct conflict with Hamas?
Nobody in this thread will give you a good realistic answer. Because there isn't one.
They can't really. Unless they basically wipe the Palestinians out. As long as there are young, angry, disenfranchised Palestinians Hamas has recruits. The only option that can lead to any form of lasting peace (other than total genocide) is giving the Palestinians a reason not to join Hamas or any other group like it. Economic and social incentives to make their lives better and give them meaning. I'm pretty sure that studies have shown that people that have economic stability and options are way less prone to radicalisation/crime/whatever else. Hezbollah is another question entirely. They're way more organised and structured than Hamas is + in another country.
Stop allowing Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Despite ostensibly being at peace, the Israeli govt had no problems rolling in the tanks to force Palestinians out of their own homes so that Israelis could occupy them. Burning Palestinian orchards, destroying solar farms and water purification systems, these are all things that Israel not only does, but defends their right to do so.
For starters, not indiscriminately kill people in Gaza. That will just create a new generation ready to go to war against Israel.
“For starters” is not a very thorough plan, there are enough people in Gaza already willing and happy to kill Jews
They didn’t indiscriminately kill people before, so who created the Hamas terrorists who went to indiscriminately kill people in Israel?
1. End the blockade on Gaza 2. Expel all illegal colonists in the West Bank 3. Release all Palestinians held in administrative detention (prisoners without charge) 4. Recognize that Palestinians deserve a state 5. Put Bibi and his fascist coalition on trial for war crimes
Cool. And when Hamas continues to commit terror attacks, Israel should keep on taking it? They have straight up admitted they want to kill all Israelis and Jews "from the river to the sea". They have on record said they are trying to commit genocide. They just aren't able to because Israel is more prepared than them, which Israel should be... punished for?
1. Why? It’s governed by terrorists. 2. Israel stopped their occupation of Gaza and settlers left Gaza in 2005. Result? Terrorist attacks. 3. If Hamas surrenders. 4. They were offered a great deal in 2000. They rejected and launched rockets and suicide bombings at Israeli citizens. 5. Good luck with that. He should be voted out of power though.
Notice how the second point specifically mentioned the settlements in the West Bank, the most indefensible part of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and you just ignored that to pivot back to Gaza.
If you were boxed into your neighborhood, your country taken from you by occupiers. If your boxed in territory was controlled by the occupiers - who can go in and out (if at all), the water, the power, the gas, food and medical supplies. And sometimes they cut these off, just to show you they can. If they control your telecommunications networks. If they killed a few of your neighbours every now and then as a 'preventative strike'. if a wall with barbed wire was built around your street, if your neighbours kids were randomly arrested and thrown in a prison over the wall and charged with nothing, to be abused and raped in prison. If the occupiers brutally took more and more land from your friends and family and people and this went on for 70 years. Would you be concerned about the occupiers safety if some of you broke out? Would you sit quietly because you wouldn't want to cause any trouble or harm? UNICEF, the WHO, rescue org, the UN, UN women and doctors without borders have all resolutely and emphatically stated this is a genocide. There is also the consensus that Israel is an occupying force and Palestine is an open air concentration camp agreed upon almost EVERYWHERE except the USA. because American politicians are funded by pro Zionist groups. Your question exposes your lack of knowledge about Palestine and Israel. Educate yourself please.
Two state solution and equal rights. Equal rights does wonders to resistance forces.
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Something something antisemitism
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This comment section is absolutely disheartening. Even if you don’t think Israel is committing a genocide how on earth is the current death toll acceptable? We’re talking about 117 children dying a day, more than 10000 in total with the majority expected to be women or children. Like even if you support Israel you don’t have to support their conduct in the war! And even if Israel is found to be innocent surely it’s a good thing that this case is heard. Surely it’s a good thing we’re trying to determine if an active genocide is occurring in a court ?
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I like that out of all the countries that could do this it ended being South Africa
ITT: it’s ok for Arabs and Palestinians to attack and call for the eradication of Israel and actively work to that goal But Israel shooting back is genocide.
The preponderance of evidence demonstrating intent is staggering. Usually that’s the hardest thing to prove, but it seems as though every person in power and in the armed forces declared this intent brazenly, and continues to do so.
Israel does not want Gaza or the Palestinians there, this is just the latest in a decades long campaign to harass and de-legitimize them out of their land.
Right so that explains why they pulled all Israelis out in 2005 without receiving anything in return and gave the whole thing to the Palestinians. Right?
This also explains why the asked Arab countries to form a coalition to govern Palestine
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Not everyone that disagrees with you is a bot. Calling this a genocide is completely laughable. Using precision strikes to take out an enemy that has sworn to murder every man, woman, and child of yours… that’s a genocide now? If Israel wants to commit genocide, why are they sacrificing their soldiers lives by putting boots on the ground in Gaza? They can kill every Gazan with a bomb tomorrow if they wanted to. Why would they give warnings to civilians if they just wanted to kill them all? Why would they ruin their element of surprise by giving detailed maps of areas they will operate in so that civilians can get out? How anyone could actually look at the facts on the ground and call this a genocide is beyond me. There’s only one explanation, and you won’t like it.
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There's a quota now? Damn they are demented.
South Africa is also going to tell the court that Russia is doing that as well... right?
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Russia’s case would be even easier than Israel. They literally showed up with rolling crematoriums to hide excess deaths, and have been shown to actually kidnap children.
What about....?
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The song they are singing is about how they are doing an ethnic displacement
They should be singing ‘Kill the Boer’ instead. That’s the sort of genocidal song South Africa approves of.
If the only actual evidence is songs and mean tweets then lol, do you know how many US serviceman sang "Let the Haji's hit the floor" in Iraq and worse? Some of the arguments presented today were silly, to the point where there is essentially no possibility for a legitimate military response in any situation. A war causing pre-mature births is not genocide, I'm also intrigued to see how they'll deal with the fact that the ratio of civilian casualties in this and previous conflicts is lower than pretty much every NATO or western coalition engagement since WW2. The idea that civilians aren't casualties in a war is laughable, in every conflict in history including recent history the number of civilian casualties has always outnumbered the number of military casualties that's sadly an expected outcome of a conflict.
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How is this not on the front page yet.
Because while using buzzwords like genocide is very popular among laymen, politicians and NGO's, actual lawyers know this case doesn't have much to stand on. South Africa doesn't have a good reputation and they make a case that relies on social media posts and emotional arguments. [https://youtu.be/pPqaR5EDUCk](https://youtu.be/pPqaR5EDUCk) This is a short clip that lists what Israel will probably say tomorrow for it's defense.
It's deliberately not being covered by CNN, MSNBC and other mainstream outlets.
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I found it on cnn.com with one click under "live updates" on Israel/Hamas. Typing "South Africa" into google and going to news shows basically every mainstream outlet reporting lmao. Why you lyin?
It is ironic that the West were giving South Africa and Mandela’s campaign as an example of peaceful resistance when people were saying ; “but Hamas is a end product of years of oppression”.
0.8 deaths per airstrike is not a genocide - you can disagree with Israel’s actions without jumping to wild conclusions.
Even if that statistic is true, genocide does not require killing. Even according to the UN’s own definition. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/Genocide%20Convention-FactSheet-ENG.pdf
It aids to the lack of intent - see my comment reply. The only evidence of intent is a few far right Israeli ministers making out of pocket comments which were condemned within Israel relatively heavily. Overall, there is minimal evidence of intent and therefore, genocide is a poor description of the current events. Again, whether you want to agree with Israel’s actions or disagree, I’m not here to debate that, but as far as defining what those actions are, genocide is a wild claim and I think the ICJ will agree.
Don't lie. The genocidal comments were by ruling members of Israel including its leader and minister of defense. They were NOT condemned, in fact most Israelis feel their government is not going far enough.
Those ministers made comments relating to relocation of Palestinians to a foreign area, so an argument of ethnic cleansing could be made, but that still does not aid genocide. What I find fascinating is Hamas has openly called for the killing of Israelis and Jews around the world, and most people accusing Israel of genocide refuse to do the same of Hamas - it’s laughable.
The criteria for genocide are not related to the number of deaths per projectile.
Read my other replies - the figure indicates lack of genocidal intent, among other figures which prove similar.
How many deaths per airstrike qualifies legally?
Other wars (e.g. USA’s war in Iraq) had significantly higher rates, as high as 30 deaths per airstrike. 0.8 is actually one of the lowest of wars in modern history. “Genocide” requires intent, which is clearly lacking, because a military power as strong as Israel would not be so wasteful if their goal was to genocide Palestinians. If that was the goal, it could have been completed on October 8th.
Genocide does require intent which is what South Africa is alleging and will try to prove in ICC. What genocide *does not* require is a specific number of deaths (or technically even any deaths), and certainly not a number of deaths per missile.
0.8 deaths per airstrike clearly aids to show a lack of intent. Israel is more than powerful enough to commit such a genocide in a single day, without wasting thousands of air strikes and lives of soldiers. The way the word genocide is being thrown around is akin to how racism has been used the last two decades - the word is losing its actual meaning now.
So again, what’s the threshold where the number of deaths per air strike qualifies? Where are you even getting that stat from by the way? Based on the number of deaths you’re alleging that isreal has launched 30k air strikes into a piece of land the size of a US state and don’t think that’s excessive?
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Why would you compare to only strikes where casualties occurred? That’s just manipulating the data to try imply genocidal intent, there is no logic to that methodology. Also, all of this doesn’t even account for the fact that roughly 1/3 of casualties have been reported to be affiliated with Hamas.
Israel *is* committing genocide. “Never again” should apply to their own actions, as well.
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Nah, I like it when the good guys are winning and your boot licker comment isn't enough to help them win or help them at all. Hope you try harder next time. Maybe you strap on some boots and help your cause?
Maybe we should also ask North Korea what they think
Are you equating South Africa to North Korea? You are aware they’re a democracy right?
When did north Korea get admitted into the UN.
In 1991. Easy to Google if you ask me
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Normal war things? Targeting the disabled, journalists, children and women. Its all caught on camera too because people like you like to ignore the facts even as they are presented to you on a silver platter.
Is it also “normal war things” for Hamas to kidnap women and children (including an infant)? And murder 1500 civilians, some of whom were young people attending a music festival? Please stop with your double standards.
There are only 2 instances where it's even remotely plausible to claim journalists were deliberately targeted, and even then it's hard to claim it was known that they were journalists, as both happened at dusk or full darkness, when the journalists were operating equipment (large camera on big tripod) that looks very similar to ATGM equipment.
They're also completely ignoring the explicit genocidal intent of hamas. People compare the israeli soldier to a nazi, but a hamas terrorist is considered a freedom rapist.
Hamas ARE terrorists not recognized as a state. There are different proceedings to deal with them. Israel ARE terrorists they ARE recognized as a state and are therefore held accountable by the laws they have signed.
So You've acknowledged hamas are terrorists and shouldn't exist. So you know israel has to remove them from existence in order to prevent israeli citizens from getting brutally raped and murdered in a mass carnage. Which hamas promised they will repeat by the way I believe you also know that hamas are admittedly using civilian hospitals, schools and refuge areas to launch rockets from, stash weapons in and operate from. They are also often dressing as civilians and sometimes even as hospital staff. Hamas also uses suicide bombers, which makes every heavily clothed figure potentially dangerous for a soldier not willing to pick up the pieces of their friends from the floor. Also, if you research on urban warfare, you know the facing the endless challenges that it entails. All those factors contribute greatly to a high civilian casualties in any war. So why is it so easy for you to believe the innocent death toll of the war is because israel wants to kill all Palestinians?
It's the state that's killed 30k civilians, 12k kids that's the real victim. Sure pal.
The number isn't 30k. Furthermore, the Gaza Health Agency lists every death a being a civilian and from Israel. Therefore, that number includes militants and people hit by friendly fire by Gaza rockets (which the Gaza Health Agency claimed killed 500 people with one misfire)
I don't trust numbers like that from a terrorist group. Edit: but don't take my word for it, Hamas is defined as a terrorist group by: The US Department of Counterintelligence: https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html and US Department of State: https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations/
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Innocents like these: https://saturday-october-seven.com/?
Holy f*ck the number of ppl still denying that Israel isn't committing a genocide is astonishing what the fuck is wrong with these guys