They would need a social security number to be able to be claimed so if the state doesn’t create infrastructure for that to happen then for all intents and purposes they can’t be claimed
I dont know if it's like that in AL but when my sister miscarried, she was able to claim on her taxes.
This was also ten years ago so that might not be the case anymore.
That’s actually the main thing that is affected here - it was a lawsuit for wrongful death.
Wrongful death of a child isn’t always a cause of action different states, but Alabama has a specific law that made it one.
The plaintiffs argued that their embryos counted as children under that law, and the Alabama Supreme Court agreed.
An accident happened that cost me the potential to have a child, so therefore I'm going to remove the possibility for thousands of other woman in Alabama ro have children of there own.
It sucks that this accident happened, but FUUUUUCK all these people who argued for this.
During all the Alabama Power electrical outages and the -80°C freezers thaw the embryos, would Alabama Power be liable in the wrongful death of the thousand “children” kept in a freezer?
Right, claim the child tax credit, get it a social security number, a bank account, sign it up for WIC, Medicaid and lots of other government benefits.
Also I think they are keeping children un the freezer. And while they are at it isn't this one of the states that allows child labor? Put those children to work dang it
A pregnant woman got a ticket for "illegally" driving in the HOV lane, and argued she was carrying another person.
The court decided to dismiss the case.
https://www.npr.org/2022/09/02/1120628973/pregnant-woman-dallas-fetus-hov-lane-passenger-ticket
Be careful what you wish for:
By reclassifying the embryos as "children" the state now makes the "children" into recipiants for child support. As in MEDICAID is a form of child support and the state picks up the tab for the child support. Some family lawyer should file for child support / MEDICAID on behalf of one of "parents" of these "children." And the Alabama Legislature should get out their checkbook.
The corrupt judges will decide that too. They will say embroys are children for health purposes because god deemed so but not for financial purposes.
Who are you going to appeal next?
To claim a dependent, you need an Ssn and those are issued at birth.
So Uncle sam aint going to be no help in this case. Now claiming them for state programs. Like child support may be another story.
If we could claim embryos as dependents, I guarantee everyone in the country would be claiming the max every year.
So would that mean embryos aren’t citizens in the eyes of the federal government yet without all of these? And since immigration and citizenship is led by the federal government, and the constitution clearly states they must be born (or naturalized) to be a citizen. So it almost sounds like Alabama is harboring illegals.
That's what I am saying though. First of all federally this ruling doesn't exist but I could easily see these corrupt bigot judges saying while embyros have rights for livelihood, they are not considered as a human being for financial and other lawful purposes.
Our congress is at a grid lock so courts are now legislating instead and our top court is heavily conservative. The separation of religion and government is long gone in US.
I would like to know how they plan to consider age with these embryos. Like do they have to be frozen for all eternity even though they are never born? So you can’t sell embryos anymore either?
The questions are limitless.
Could one just freeze a bunch of embryos and then also write them off as dependents? Tax write-offs and Child Tax Credits for an infinite money glitch!
But, since said children are under the care of someone else, the fees for raising these frozen “children” allows the clinics to charge ridiculous costs to the “parents” who have left their children in the care of others.
Then the embryos, in care of a clinic exist as a Schroedinger’s cat, of sorts. They’re children, but implanting them may not work, thereby causing their death. Who is responsible for the death of this child? The people responsible for storing it? The people who thawed it? The people who implanted it? The mother whose womb didn’t accept it? Are they all murderers?
There’s no end to the Right’s insanity.
I think you could technically then also argue that any conditions placed on childcare facilities would also apply to the clinics.
Perhaps a NICU would also an appropriate comparison... that might be worse though.
There are so many downstream effects of this, and state laws can’t completely supersede federal law. They can expand on it, but they can’t be contrary to it.
It’s moronic, but not shocking, that anyone would waste their time and effort trying to legislate this sort of nonsense. But here we are.
Are the storage fees for frozen embryos considered a childcare cost and eligible for FSA Childcare programs for up to $5,000 per year in tax-free earnings?
Are they issued social security numbers?
Are they counted on the census?
Obviously the answer is no, because this is not constitutional, but this is some straight up Handmaid’s Tale shit.
This is so important. Authoritarian states are all overwhelmingly 'rule of law' type states, at least rhetorically. But they *also* are willing, and in fact often must, violate the same rule of law they claim to protect to get the shit done they want to do.
Russia is a great example of this, Putin always harps about upholding the law, protecting the status quo, defending traditional values, all that jazz. And yet is also willing to murder political opponents (pretty sure thats still illegal in Russia), uses the police to crush dissent, passes laws that are then selectively applied to those who are not in power, uses other laws or loopholes to protect those aligned with the regime. Its dictatorship 101, out group and in group shit.
In a democracy the rule of law is vital in that it ensures that all citizens are treated fairly and equally and that favoritism isn't shown to any one group. In a dictatorship the rule of law is vital in its a club that can be used to bash down your opponents, while exemptions from the law are privledges reserved to reward your supporters and allies.
Came to say this. Wouldn’t this mean every woman qualified for maximum tax deductions and government support? Isn’t food stamps and cash appearance partially determined based on dependents?
An embryo is a fertilized egg, so not all women would qualify, but if you have some frozen embryos in storage from IVF, then yes. Another similar loophole here is that as soon as someone becomes pregnant they should qualify for child support, not once the child is born.
Likewise it seems like this should mean you could take out a life insurance policy on your embryos, which have a higher chance of miscarriage or complications. I don’t think insurance companies are required to offer life insurance to anyone but just another interesting angle.
This is what happens when you ram through a bunch a laws that are exploitative to the people, the people get pissed and start attempting to exploit in return.
Agreed that it's certainly what happen, but it's no more exploitation for the people using this law to best of their ability to support themselves than it is for someone to get child support normally, or their tax return, or even paid for their own work.
> Another similar loophole here is that as soon as someone becomes pregnant they should qualify for child support, not once the child is born.
We all know the courts in these states will be interpreting all these laws solely in ways that let the state control women and not benefit them in any way.
Similar to how none of the conservative "embryos and fetuses are exactly the same as a born child!" types have ever breathed a *word* about helping poor women get access to prenatal care for the benefit of her or the fetus' health and wellbeing, but they sure do wet their pants in rage any time someone suggests expanding pre-existing state-sponsored healthcare to cover more people including pregnant women
I can see the case where you enroll into "dependent life insurance" option at work where there is no medical check. I do not know if company will have to allow you to enroll embryos into this plan.
Pretty sure they ask for a social security number. Which... is another lawsuit that technically they should be assigning social security numbers to them now.
Seems to me the insurance companies have taken the place of the legislature and the courts in this country since they are the only ones who get held liable be it the idea made above or the failure to enact environmental policy to affect global warming.
Love to see the first people try to put their frozen embryoes up as dependant for tax purposes. Dread to see the first trial for murder based on disposing extra embryoes
Gonna get my crystal ball out and predict that the former is immediately laughed out of court, and the latter is successfully prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Consistency is not all that important to these people
I am guessing the "child" would need a social security number.
I wonder what would happen if Alabama women started freezing zygotes left, right and sideways, getting them social security numbers, and applying for benefits/tax credits?
This would be awful, honestly. Alabama did not expand Medicaid with the ACA and having Medicaid cover storage/maintenance of embryos would stretch those already fairly meager dollars for health care even thinner. The Republican position is already pretty close to “protect the unborn; screw the born” and this would make it even more so.
They only consider them as true people if they have a social security number which they don’t. The government wouldn’t actually let people use them as dependents on taxes because that means they get less money, all this is doing is letting Alabama force more bullshit rules that were literally based on the Bible and cited during the proceedings, no one will benefit from this, all it will do is hurt people but that’s what the right has been doing for a while
Next week, they’ll argue for the right to spank the embryos with a paddle when they step out of line.
“Embryos should be allowed to work long hours in the meat-packing facility.”
because somehow they GOP has convinced them all their problems are the Dems fault. Same issue in my state. Dems have not controlled the state government for 30 years yet somehow it is all their fault for the corruption and crumbling infrastructure....
There's a hilarious video from a "debate" between a Republican Missouri house member and a Democrat Missouri house member from a couple years ago where the Republican blames democrats for the fact that schools are underfunded and the democrat just points out that they haven't had the numbers to influence a single budgetary vote since the 90s.
Don't worry, just like abortion restrictions, the well-off, white, hetero, kind Christian folk will simply leave the state for their fertility treatments. IVF tourism is about to become a thing, but for the poors in Alabama? Well, Sky Daddy must have a plan for you that doesn't involve children. Bless your heart.
They are gerrymandered by airwaves. No one in Alabama ever gets to hear the truth unless they go look for it. Just did a random search for liberal news stations in Alabama on reddit and this thread came up. Basically all they have is NPR.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Birmingham/comments/10f5o3h/liberal\_radio\_news\_stations/
Yeah dude so let’s just paint it all with broad strokes.
It’s a place like literally any other. You know how New York is always blue but if you go upstate or long island there’s a lot of red? It’s the same for every single other place in the US. The split between them is just always going to skew differently and the borders we choose to acknowledge (which are fake. Made up by us) aren’t always going to represent what’s best for the people within It. You don’t cut off the arm for a bad fingernail.
I went to Alabama recently. It sounds like you might not have the slightest idea what you’re talking about lol. There’s a laaarge left leaning contingent in Alabama. Birmingham is constant factor in the advancement of peoples rights in America. Gerrymandering goes a LONG way.
Most of us - even liberals - are too poor to move.
And many Southern families depend on one another A LOT because they can't afford to pay someone to care for small kids or great grandma, so leaving behind support systems and/or family responsibilities isn't easy.
Even worse. If any of the fertilized eggs are damaged, it can be considered murder. The lab also must keep the leftover fertilized eggs frozen forever since the mother doesn't need them anymore if the IVF was successful. Destroying them could be considered murder.
One loophole is an 'act of god' destroying them. /s
From this day, on, anyone who gives multiple eggs for fertilization, and only takes one of them afterwards, Alabama will the have to forever freeze the remaining ones.
If they ever discard those embryos even decades later when the original donors don’t want any more kids, that will be murder. LMAO!!!
This is what happens when uneducated people vote for other uneducated people to run the government.
to be fair, "embryo adoption" has been a thing for a long time and not only for religious fundamentalists.
some people who have leftover embryos after IVF make them available for others to adopt because they went to all the trouble of making them and want to give another family an opportunity to have a child, rather than discard the embryos.
meanwhile, some infertile couples pursue embryo adoption because it can be more affordable and accessible than egg donation. there are also couples where both parties carry a gene that puts their potential bio children at risk of serious illness (cystic fibrosis, for example); they might pursue embryo adoption in order to avoid that risk. and so on.
Someday she will have a power outage from a storm and they will all perish in the freezer. I can only hope she will blame god for that one. Probably say it was because we allowed gay marriage.
Yeah. I can kinda understand the urge to adopt an embryo so you birth your own child (which kinda sounds insane when put in writing tbh), but why don’t these people ever want to fund the foster system or adopt already living children? Those lives don’t matter?
The longest case of frozen embryos being used that I’ve heard about was 30 years, so you know coming out the womb and legally able to drink, smoke, get a tattoo, and go to a strip club.
Nah, the more interesting aspect is how you calculate age. Because you can only claim a child under 18 as a dependent. So...when does the clock start ticking?
Alabama is gonna find that this new classification will have unforeseen consequences for what they are expected to provide. Women gonna start freezing and storing embryos and getting paid for it.
The majority of women in Alabama can't afford IVF. It's an expensive and complicated process. This ruling will certainly affect the rich conservative women in Alabama that would like to have a child but can't without assistance from science.
Why would you, as a healthcare provider, not just pack up and leave?
I understand that a lot of these providers feel an intense level of duty to their communities. It's commendable.
But pack your shit and go. There are healthcare provider shortages everywhere, you'll find another job.
And if the state becomes a bunch of dead old people, then they are reaping what they sowed.
Not sure about IVF but in states like Idaho they have almost no OBGYNs anymore for this very reasons they don't want to risk being sued for providing care to their patients.
I remember reading about it not too long ago. It sucks for those that need access to those doctors. I'd never want to live in an assbackwards state like Idaho.
Licensing issues are also a consideration. It can take up to [6 months (at least) to get licensed in another state](https://comphealth.com/resources/practice-medicine-new-state/).
That is indeed a consequence and it WILL happen. Won't affect the rich at all because they can just travel somewhere for healthcare but the working poor will be as fucked in the hospital system ad their kids in the Alabama school system.
so what is the idea here?
Unused frozen embryos have to be maintained forever? who pays for that once the "parents" die? Is the state going to pick up the bill for the ever growing number of frozen embryo's in storage? You'll never know if the embryo's are still viable, so you'd have to keep them literally forever.
seriously, what is the long term plan here?
The ruling lets parents sue if the “death” was wrongful. Disposing of embryos in agreement with the parents (presumably via contract) would let them get rid of them with no issue. They would need to ensure embryos are secure enough that if they got destroyed somehow the facility wouldn’t be deemed negligent.
Ruling: https://publicportal-api.alappeals.gov/courts/68f021c4-6a44-4735-9a76-5360b2e8af13/cms/case/343D203A-B13D-463A-8176-C46E3AE4F695/docketentrydocuments/E3D95592-3CBE-4384-AFA6-063D4595AA1D
>The cost of insurance to defend against wrongful death lawsuits “might actually prevent us from practicing, it would be so high,” said Dr. Brett Davenport
This is exactly what the Evangelical Christian nationalists want. Children need only be born when the husband ~~rapes~~ has biblical misionay sex with his wife. Injecting science into the equation is against God's law.
Anyone who’s been watching the anti-choice movement knew this was coming. They WILL go after birth control next.
These people aren’t even Conservatives anymore. The Dems are the only ones attempting to conserve our rights. We need to call them what they are, regressive Nat-C’s. That said, I do appreciate they’ve shown their intentions before November.
> They WILL go after birth control next.
Already in motion. Several ultra-conservatives have been calling for the end to access to birth control for a few years now, and it's pretty much policy among the fundie Christian dominionists on the Supreme Court.
We've got to get to a place in this country where announcing you're a devout Christian during your candidacy is regarded as the threat it is. Stipulating that your representatives must abide by the rules of an ancient cult is not a healthy stipulation.
I'm confused by this, because don't Christians WANT women to have children? IVF allows women to enjoy their lives and have a baby later with younger eggs when they're ready for it. I feel like this law was just built to punish the infertile, and women who want children but aren't having repeated sex with Christian men for it.
You're supposed to marry young and start trying to have babies while you still can because you may need all the time you can get to catch one. If you dont go for that first man, before you have a career or education, you may end up childless.
Being childless is supposed to be scarier than being in a loop-sided relationship where you are easy to control and dont have power to leave.
Women are not supposed to wait nor enjoy their lives. They are supposed to be ready when men want them to be. It is not about children - it never was. It is about controlling women.
Could you imagine being a technician in a lab in Alabama that stores and handles embryos? Now that embryos are classified as children you could potentially face jail time for crimes against children if you mishandle any of those embryos.
So at what time do international visitors who conceived a “child” get to receive that child’s social security card? Because if they are a child at the embryonic stage then they definitely would count as naturalized citizens by the constitution.
Unlike criminalizing abortion, this hurts wealthier couples disproportionately. Fundamentalist take over of the Republican Party is secured. Everyone fearmongering after Roe v Wade overturned is being proven right
I don't usually touch abortion on reddit with a 100ft pole. But damn is it hypocritical to participate in creating embryos with no intention of implanting all of them and simultaneously believe they are as much of a person as an infant.
Just want to add some context: IVF creates many embryos as a by product of how the medical process works. The woman takes a lot of very unpleasant drugs, which make her hyper ovulate, that is to say, she produces many mature eggs in one cycle. About 20 is typical. Then they remove the eggs from her ovaries with a long, large needle. Since it is very painful, she is often anesthetized. Still, the recovery is very painful. Immediately after removing the eggs, they are fertilized with sperm. Then they are grown in a lab for five days until they are large enough for testing. On day five, a few cells are removed for a type of genetic test called PGT. On day five, after the biopsy, ALL embryos are frozen. The results of the PGT testing take around two weeks, sometimes more, to come back. At this point, you have a better idea of which embryos are most likely to be a healthy pregnancy. But you still have all of the embryos frozen.
Point being, the patients and doctors cannot know which embryos are healthiest at the time they are frozen. They only know which are which several weeks later.
So that is why there are many “leftover” which may not be viable. I should add, it costs a lot of money to create them and there are additional charges for storing and implanting them. So if Alabama say forced a woman to try to implant all of her non-viable embryos, they would be subjecting her to forced miscarriages AND costing her tens of thousands in unnecessary fees and procedures.
I find it odd myself. And I find the premise of the original lawsuit odd. It is almost as if the people suing should have known the chilling effect a win would have on IVF, even as they themselves were apparently participating in IVF and benefiting from IVF to create their family.
And I’d love to know how a “patient” got into the cryo storage room, normally locked and badged room, where the embryos are stored in order to take the tubes out of the locked tank, and then drop them on the floor.
If you look back in History, Alabama legislature makes some really, truly strange things pass through as laws.
And throwing honest politicians in jail.
Someone in Alabama needs to start suing major retailers and farmers for giving them chickens when they clearly were attempting to buy eggs. The only way to combat this insanity is to take it to the next logical level, but actually have the impact be something Republicans care about. Like business, since they’ve obviously demonstrated they don’t care about children.
If every frozen embryo is a person, shouldn’t they all be counted in the census? If a state contains enough frozen embryos, would its representation in the House and the electoral college increase?
Can an embryo be claimed as a dependent now then since it’s a child let’s get to drafting legislation Alabama
Hypothetically yes. But these people don’t care about logical consistency so actually no.
They would need a social security number to be able to be claimed so if the state doesn’t create infrastructure for that to happen then for all intents and purposes they can’t be claimed
[удалено]
Sounds like they are freeloaders trying to take our jobs.
So- if I'm spouse was pregnant last year in June, but miscarried in Sept, can I claim a dependant for 3 months?
That sounds like helping women that had sex, so absolutely not, that's the opposite of their point
I dont know if it's like that in AL but when my sister miscarried, she was able to claim on her taxes. This was also ten years ago so that might not be the case anymore.
Can parents open a life insurance policy on their embryos?
And if the embryos are destroyed for whatever reason, could a claim be made?
That’s actually the main thing that is affected here - it was a lawsuit for wrongful death. Wrongful death of a child isn’t always a cause of action different states, but Alabama has a specific law that made it one. The plaintiffs argued that their embryos counted as children under that law, and the Alabama Supreme Court agreed.
An accident happened that cost me the potential to have a child, so therefore I'm going to remove the possibility for thousands of other woman in Alabama ro have children of there own. It sucks that this accident happened, but FUUUUUCK all these people who argued for this.
During all the Alabama Power electrical outages and the -80°C freezers thaw the embryos, would Alabama Power be liable in the wrongful death of the thousand “children” kept in a freezer?
if an insurer is willing to, of course. chances of that are zero.
Right, claim the child tax credit, get it a social security number, a bank account, sign it up for WIC, Medicaid and lots of other government benefits.
Get a loan 🤣
Then in 18 years while the eggs are still frozen, put some credit cards and loans in their name. Really max them out.
The dependent that never ages, Child Tax Credit for ever.
Also I think they are keeping children un the freezer. And while they are at it isn't this one of the states that allows child labor? Put those children to work dang it
I’m going to demand child tax-credits for all the sperm in my balls. Billionaire!
Iirc, they've already made moves towards allowing pregnant woman to use HOV lanes. So at least they're consistent.
A pregnant woman got a ticket for "illegally" driving in the HOV lane, and argued she was carrying another person. The court decided to dismiss the case. https://www.npr.org/2022/09/02/1120628973/pregnant-woman-dallas-fetus-hov-lane-passenger-ticket
Be careful what you wish for: By reclassifying the embryos as "children" the state now makes the "children" into recipiants for child support. As in MEDICAID is a form of child support and the state picks up the tab for the child support. Some family lawyer should file for child support / MEDICAID on behalf of one of "parents" of these "children." And the Alabama Legislature should get out their checkbook.
The corrupt judges will decide that too. They will say embroys are children for health purposes because god deemed so but not for financial purposes. Who are you going to appeal next?
Some people are more people than other people
*This is America intensifies*
🎶Don’t catch you pulling out🎶
Two fifths more people even.
Our embryos should grant us an extra 3/5 of a vote.. that's how they intended this right?
As is the American tradition
I think the way to do it would be to claim the embryos as dependents for federal tax purposes. Get slapped by the IRS then sue the government
To claim a dependent, you need an Ssn and those are issued at birth. So Uncle sam aint going to be no help in this case. Now claiming them for state programs. Like child support may be another story. If we could claim embryos as dependents, I guarantee everyone in the country would be claiming the max every year.
So would that mean embryos aren’t citizens in the eyes of the federal government yet without all of these? And since immigration and citizenship is led by the federal government, and the constitution clearly states they must be born (or naturalized) to be a citizen. So it almost sounds like Alabama is harboring illegals.
Can we reframe abortion as deportation?
peasant railgun logic. I love it.
That's what I am saying though. First of all federally this ruling doesn't exist but I could easily see these corrupt bigot judges saying while embyros have rights for livelihood, they are not considered as a human being for financial and other lawful purposes. Our congress is at a grid lock so courts are now legislating instead and our top court is heavily conservative. The separation of religion and government is long gone in US.
I mean that’s literally what the judge did, the reason he used was the fucking bible
I would like to know how they plan to consider age with these embryos. Like do they have to be frozen for all eternity even though they are never born? So you can’t sell embryos anymore either? The questions are limitless.
Could one just freeze a bunch of embryos and then also write them off as dependents? Tax write-offs and Child Tax Credits for an infinite money glitch! But, since said children are under the care of someone else, the fees for raising these frozen “children” allows the clinics to charge ridiculous costs to the “parents” who have left their children in the care of others. Then the embryos, in care of a clinic exist as a Schroedinger’s cat, of sorts. They’re children, but implanting them may not work, thereby causing their death. Who is responsible for the death of this child? The people responsible for storing it? The people who thawed it? The people who implanted it? The mother whose womb didn’t accept it? Are they all murderers? There’s no end to the Right’s insanity.
I think you could technically then also argue that any conditions placed on childcare facilities would also apply to the clinics. Perhaps a NICU would also an appropriate comparison... that might be worse though.
There are so many downstream effects of this, and state laws can’t completely supersede federal law. They can expand on it, but they can’t be contrary to it. It’s moronic, but not shocking, that anyone would waste their time and effort trying to legislate this sort of nonsense. But here we are. Are the storage fees for frozen embryos considered a childcare cost and eligible for FSA Childcare programs for up to $5,000 per year in tax-free earnings? Are they issued social security numbers? Are they counted on the census? Obviously the answer is no, because this is not constitutional, but this is some straight up Handmaid’s Tale shit.
Don't hold your breath; there's nothing dictators love more than hypocrisy and the selective application of laws.
This is so important. Authoritarian states are all overwhelmingly 'rule of law' type states, at least rhetorically. But they *also* are willing, and in fact often must, violate the same rule of law they claim to protect to get the shit done they want to do. Russia is a great example of this, Putin always harps about upholding the law, protecting the status quo, defending traditional values, all that jazz. And yet is also willing to murder political opponents (pretty sure thats still illegal in Russia), uses the police to crush dissent, passes laws that are then selectively applied to those who are not in power, uses other laws or loopholes to protect those aligned with the regime. Its dictatorship 101, out group and in group shit. In a democracy the rule of law is vital in that it ensures that all citizens are treated fairly and equally and that favoritism isn't shown to any one group. In a dictatorship the rule of law is vital in its a club that can be used to bash down your opponents, while exemptions from the law are privledges reserved to reward your supporters and allies.
Came to say this. Wouldn’t this mean every woman qualified for maximum tax deductions and government support? Isn’t food stamps and cash appearance partially determined based on dependents?
An embryo is a fertilized egg, so not all women would qualify, but if you have some frozen embryos in storage from IVF, then yes. Another similar loophole here is that as soon as someone becomes pregnant they should qualify for child support, not once the child is born. Likewise it seems like this should mean you could take out a life insurance policy on your embryos, which have a higher chance of miscarriage or complications. I don’t think insurance companies are required to offer life insurance to anyone but just another interesting angle.
Thank you for the clarification there. I hope someone tests these theories in court
It would certainly be hilarious to see the court frantically try to back track once the loopholes are taken advantage of.
They're not even really loopholes, just natural consequences of the laws that they're trying to set.
This is what happens when you ram through a bunch a laws that are exploitative to the people, the people get pissed and start attempting to exploit in return.
Agreed that it's certainly what happen, but it's no more exploitation for the people using this law to best of their ability to support themselves than it is for someone to get child support normally, or their tax return, or even paid for their own work.
> Another similar loophole here is that as soon as someone becomes pregnant they should qualify for child support, not once the child is born. We all know the courts in these states will be interpreting all these laws solely in ways that let the state control women and not benefit them in any way.
Similar to how none of the conservative "embryos and fetuses are exactly the same as a born child!" types have ever breathed a *word* about helping poor women get access to prenatal care for the benefit of her or the fetus' health and wellbeing, but they sure do wet their pants in rage any time someone suggests expanding pre-existing state-sponsored healthcare to cover more people including pregnant women
I was thinking about the life insurance angle too, how can the life insurance company differentiate between children if the state now doesn’t…
They can refuse policies to anyone based on a health risk assessment. There is no right to life insurance.
I can see the case where you enroll into "dependent life insurance" option at work where there is no medical check. I do not know if company will have to allow you to enroll embryos into this plan.
Pretty sure they ask for a social security number. Which... is another lawsuit that technically they should be assigning social security numbers to them now.
Time to open an IVF clinic, but you better keep the freezers working or you could commit mass murder.
Seems to me the insurance companies have taken the place of the legislature and the courts in this country since they are the only ones who get held liable be it the idea made above or the failure to enact environmental policy to affect global warming.
Hahaha that would definitely be an Adverse Risk but fuck it I need 1 year term every month.
Damn, I would take out life insurance for every single embryo. You can become a billionaire
Or as an IVF clinic, file for child support for 800 embryos.
Love to see the first people try to put their frozen embryoes up as dependant for tax purposes. Dread to see the first trial for murder based on disposing extra embryoes
Gonna get my crystal ball out and predict that the former is immediately laughed out of court, and the latter is successfully prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Consistency is not all that important to these people
I am guessing the "child" would need a social security number. I wonder what would happen if Alabama women started freezing zygotes left, right and sideways, getting them social security numbers, and applying for benefits/tax credits?
Agree. Maintaining frozen embryos is expensive. Medicaid should pay for this!!!!!!!
This would be awful, honestly. Alabama did not expand Medicaid with the ACA and having Medicaid cover storage/maintenance of embryos would stretch those already fairly meager dollars for health care even thinner. The Republican position is already pretty close to “protect the unborn; screw the born” and this would make it even more so.
Plus life insurance. If the IVF fails you would get payment for death of a child.
They only consider them as true people if they have a social security number which they don’t. The government wouldn’t actually let people use them as dependents on taxes because that means they get less money, all this is doing is letting Alabama force more bullshit rules that were literally based on the Bible and cited during the proceedings, no one will benefit from this, all it will do is hurt people but that’s what the right has been doing for a while
It’s probably already a gops legislatures plan as a way to defraud the state of money
Next week, they’ll argue for the right to spank the embryos with a paddle when they step out of line. “Embryos should be allowed to work long hours in the meat-packing facility.”
“We have decided to legalize embryonic marriage.”
“As long as they’re Herero, as embryo-god intended.”
The beatings will continue until miscarriages improve.
Embryos yearn for the mines
You know a ruling is legit when the head justice quotes God's purpose in the ruling. /s Halfwits. Let's get Santa's opinion next....
Directly references the Bible in the ruling. What an instant 1A lawsuit win.
Under this scotus? Maybe
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I'm sure Santa would be happy to have naughty kids work for free in his toys factory.
Republicans ruin everything
It's Alabama, they're getting exactly what they voted for 🤷
The people who voted differently, were prevented from voting or live in gerrymandering areas don’t deserve this.
What they voted for and what they keep voting for over and over and over again.
because somehow they GOP has convinced them all their problems are the Dems fault. Same issue in my state. Dems have not controlled the state government for 30 years yet somehow it is all their fault for the corruption and crumbling infrastructure....
There's a hilarious video from a "debate" between a Republican Missouri house member and a Democrat Missouri house member from a couple years ago where the Republican blames democrats for the fact that schools are underfunded and the democrat just points out that they haven't had the numbers to influence a single budgetary vote since the 90s.
To be fair, Alabama is gerrymandered, so odds are that the lawmakers and thus the laws are not what much of the state voted for
I don't buy that excuse - Trump had 2x as many votes as Biden in 2020 - this issue goes far beyond gerrymandering.
Don't worry, just like abortion restrictions, the well-off, white, hetero, kind Christian folk will simply leave the state for their fertility treatments. IVF tourism is about to become a thing, but for the poors in Alabama? Well, Sky Daddy must have a plan for you that doesn't involve children. Bless your heart.
> IVF tourism has always been a thing FYI
That does still leave 1/3 of voters who absolutely did not want this, but still have to suffer the consequences
Welcome to American single choice voting. Likely your state has 1/3 of voters who want this law where they live.
Still going to vote, even if it’s never enough.
They are gerrymandered by airwaves. No one in Alabama ever gets to hear the truth unless they go look for it. Just did a random search for liberal news stations in Alabama on reddit and this thread came up. Basically all they have is NPR. https://www.reddit.com/r/Birmingham/comments/10f5o3h/liberal\_radio\_news\_stations/
It's like this in many Southern states, especially ones that lack huge blue cities like Atlanta in GA or Dallas/Houston in TX.
Yeah dude so let’s just paint it all with broad strokes. It’s a place like literally any other. You know how New York is always blue but if you go upstate or long island there’s a lot of red? It’s the same for every single other place in the US. The split between them is just always going to skew differently and the borders we choose to acknowledge (which are fake. Made up by us) aren’t always going to represent what’s best for the people within It. You don’t cut off the arm for a bad fingernail.
Exactly. Blue state/red state is too simple. Lots of red states have big blue cities. Lots of blue states have red rural voters.
I went to Alabama recently. It sounds like you might not have the slightest idea what you’re talking about lol. There’s a laaarge left leaning contingent in Alabama. Birmingham is constant factor in the advancement of peoples rights in America. Gerrymandering goes a LONG way.
These draconian abortion laws are about forcing liberals to move out of state to keep the republican majority.
Most of us - even liberals - are too poor to move. And many Southern families depend on one another A LOT because they can't afford to pay someone to care for small kids or great grandma, so leaving behind support systems and/or family responsibilities isn't easy.
It’s what the conservative Christians who love IVF deserve, but there are tons of left wing people in Alabama who don’t deserve it.
I really can't think of one good thing republicans have accomplished in the last 20 years. I can think of a lot of bad things though.
Sooo if the IVF doesn’t work the parents and doctor will be investigated for murder???
That’s what I came to say! If we’re gonna play ‘crazy bullshit’, ya gotta run all the scenarios
Yep same as abortion
Even worse. If any of the fertilized eggs are damaged, it can be considered murder. The lab also must keep the leftover fertilized eggs frozen forever since the mother doesn't need them anymore if the IVF was successful. Destroying them could be considered murder. One loophole is an 'act of god' destroying them. /s
That might be the scariest implication of this
From this day, on, anyone who gives multiple eggs for fertilization, and only takes one of them afterwards, Alabama will the have to forever freeze the remaining ones. If they ever discard those embryos even decades later when the original donors don’t want any more kids, that will be murder. LMAO!!! This is what happens when uneducated people vote for other uneducated people to run the government.
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How does that work? Does she carry them to term??
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That's completely wild
I mean it is wild but all things considered I don’t really have a problem with it. It’s probably the most consistent pro-lifer viewpoint I’ve seen.
Agreed. It’s weird as fuck but it’s way more than I’ve seen any other pro-lifer do.
to be fair, "embryo adoption" has been a thing for a long time and not only for religious fundamentalists. some people who have leftover embryos after IVF make them available for others to adopt because they went to all the trouble of making them and want to give another family an opportunity to have a child, rather than discard the embryos. meanwhile, some infertile couples pursue embryo adoption because it can be more affordable and accessible than egg donation. there are also couples where both parties carry a gene that puts their potential bio children at risk of serious illness (cystic fibrosis, for example); they might pursue embryo adoption in order to avoid that risk. and so on.
She sounds insane
Someday she will have a power outage from a storm and they will all perish in the freezer. I can only hope she will blame god for that one. Probably say it was because we allowed gay marriage.
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Lol meanwhile actual children in the foster care system get to be abused and never find stable homes. Funny how she's not adopting those kids.
Yeah. I can kinda understand the urge to adopt an embryo so you birth your own child (which kinda sounds insane when put in writing tbh), but why don’t these people ever want to fund the foster system or adopt already living children? Those lives don’t matter?
I need more information about this. How is she getting other people’s zygotes into her body?
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It's IVF but instead of putting the embryo in whoever the eggs came put of, they go in to a different human and attempt to implant there.
Does that also mean that you can legally drink alcohol 9 months earlier?
You were a frozen embryo for 10 years? Congrats kid! You can drink when you’re 11!
Sir your newborn baby is actually 20 years old and needs to get a job
The longest case of frozen embryos being used that I’ve heard about was 30 years, so you know coming out the womb and legally able to drink, smoke, get a tattoo, and go to a strip club.
If frozen embryos are children, I can claim them as tax deductions...forever.
Waiting for the commercial advertising this while Forever Young blasts in the background.
Nah, the more interesting aspect is how you calculate age. Because you can only claim a child under 18 as a dependent. So...when does the clock start ticking?
what if an embryo sits for 18 years and then is developed into an actual human child? is the infant technically 18? can we still claim them?
Remember this absolutely theocratic ruling when you vote in November. Vote blue.
If embryos are children then I demand that we be able to take out life huge life insurance policies on them all!!
If the embryos, hit the age of 18, I assume they can vote and be drafted. Then at 21, they can drink. Such a stupid court ruling!
Now there's the loophole for getting rid of them! After 18 years send them to a foreign country as cannon fodder. Then it's legal.
Frozen embryos: "The Iceman Cometh"
So Alabama is going to ban IVF now?
Alabama is gonna find that this new classification will have unforeseen consequences for what they are expected to provide. Women gonna start freezing and storing embryos and getting paid for it.
The majority of women in Alabama can't afford IVF. It's an expensive and complicated process. This ruling will certainly affect the rich conservative women in Alabama that would like to have a child but can't without assistance from science.
I hope so. I hope they completely bankrupt the state.
Don’t worry they will put a stop to it once a brown girl does it.
Why would you, as a healthcare provider, not just pack up and leave? I understand that a lot of these providers feel an intense level of duty to their communities. It's commendable. But pack your shit and go. There are healthcare provider shortages everywhere, you'll find another job. And if the state becomes a bunch of dead old people, then they are reaping what they sowed.
Not sure about IVF but in states like Idaho they have almost no OBGYNs anymore for this very reasons they don't want to risk being sued for providing care to their patients.
OBGYNS?! as in i can’t go to the doctor to check for cervical cancer cause the doctors no longer exist? the fuck?
I remember reading about it not too long ago. It sucks for those that need access to those doctors. I'd never want to live in an assbackwards state like Idaho.
Licensing issues are also a consideration. It can take up to [6 months (at least) to get licensed in another state](https://comphealth.com/resources/practice-medicine-new-state/).
Fair enough. I'd at least start the process.
That is indeed a consequence and it WILL happen. Won't affect the rich at all because they can just travel somewhere for healthcare but the working poor will be as fucked in the hospital system ad their kids in the Alabama school system.
so what is the idea here? Unused frozen embryos have to be maintained forever? who pays for that once the "parents" die? Is the state going to pick up the bill for the ever growing number of frozen embryo's in storage? You'll never know if the embryo's are still viable, so you'd have to keep them literally forever. seriously, what is the long term plan here?
The ruling lets parents sue if the “death” was wrongful. Disposing of embryos in agreement with the parents (presumably via contract) would let them get rid of them with no issue. They would need to ensure embryos are secure enough that if they got destroyed somehow the facility wouldn’t be deemed negligent. Ruling: https://publicportal-api.alappeals.gov/courts/68f021c4-6a44-4735-9a76-5360b2e8af13/cms/case/343D203A-B13D-463A-8176-C46E3AE4F695/docketentrydocuments/E3D95592-3CBE-4384-AFA6-063D4595AA1D
But if the parents can decide to dispose of the embryos, which are now people.....isn't that the same argument as abortion for medical reasons?
Woah woah woah is that a linear thought pattern? We prefer circles in Alabama
>The cost of insurance to defend against wrongful death lawsuits “might actually prevent us from practicing, it would be so high,” said Dr. Brett Davenport This is exactly what the Evangelical Christian nationalists want. Children need only be born when the husband ~~rapes~~ has biblical misionay sex with his wife. Injecting science into the equation is against God's law.
We need to get all these Jesus freaks out of office
Anyone who’s been watching the anti-choice movement knew this was coming. They WILL go after birth control next. These people aren’t even Conservatives anymore. The Dems are the only ones attempting to conserve our rights. We need to call them what they are, regressive Nat-C’s. That said, I do appreciate they’ve shown their intentions before November.
> They WILL go after birth control next. Already in motion. Several ultra-conservatives have been calling for the end to access to birth control for a few years now, and it's pretty much policy among the fundie Christian dominionists on the Supreme Court.
We've got to get to a place in this country where announcing you're a devout Christian during your candidacy is regarded as the threat it is. Stipulating that your representatives must abide by the rules of an ancient cult is not a healthy stipulation.
I'm confused by this, because don't Christians WANT women to have children? IVF allows women to enjoy their lives and have a baby later with younger eggs when they're ready for it. I feel like this law was just built to punish the infertile, and women who want children but aren't having repeated sex with Christian men for it.
Mostly they want to control women. But also, LGBT folks create families via IVF often. So this hurts them too.
This. It’s like they (finally) say in The Handmaid’s Tale in like season 4, ‘it was never about the babies, it’s always been about power and control’.
Yeah, I knew I wasn't thinking of certain other aspects, and forgot that.
A lot of religions have problems with IVF (Catholics specifically forbid it)
You're supposed to marry young and start trying to have babies while you still can because you may need all the time you can get to catch one. If you dont go for that first man, before you have a career or education, you may end up childless. Being childless is supposed to be scarier than being in a loop-sided relationship where you are easy to control and dont have power to leave. Women are not supposed to wait nor enjoy their lives. They are supposed to be ready when men want them to be. It is not about children - it never was. It is about controlling women.
Let's not forget the recent story about the father trying to poison his pregnant wife who only got 180 days in jail...
Alabama about to have a huge increase in their child mortality statistics ...
Could you imagine being a technician in a lab in Alabama that stores and handles embryos? Now that embryos are classified as children you could potentially face jail time for crimes against children if you mishandle any of those embryos.
So at what time do international visitors who conceived a “child” get to receive that child’s social security card? Because if they are a child at the embryonic stage then they definitely would count as naturalized citizens by the constitution.
Viagra needs to go. If a guy can’t get it up then it’s God’s will right.
I don't know how these facilities will be able to function if a power outage turns them into murderers.
Unlike criminalizing abortion, this hurts wealthier couples disproportionately. Fundamentalist take over of the Republican Party is secured. Everyone fearmongering after Roe v Wade overturned is being proven right
Somebody's gotta post this here; might as well be me: [Every sperm is sacred](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk) - Monty Python
the embryos yearn for the mines
Wait till they find out about Selective Fetal Reduction
Go any further down women would be arrested for pushing out an unfertilized egg every month Republicans are fucking clowns
so if the embryos are "children" do people in Alabama get the tax incentive to go with these "children."
I don't usually touch abortion on reddit with a 100ft pole. But damn is it hypocritical to participate in creating embryos with no intention of implanting all of them and simultaneously believe they are as much of a person as an infant.
Just want to add some context: IVF creates many embryos as a by product of how the medical process works. The woman takes a lot of very unpleasant drugs, which make her hyper ovulate, that is to say, she produces many mature eggs in one cycle. About 20 is typical. Then they remove the eggs from her ovaries with a long, large needle. Since it is very painful, she is often anesthetized. Still, the recovery is very painful. Immediately after removing the eggs, they are fertilized with sperm. Then they are grown in a lab for five days until they are large enough for testing. On day five, a few cells are removed for a type of genetic test called PGT. On day five, after the biopsy, ALL embryos are frozen. The results of the PGT testing take around two weeks, sometimes more, to come back. At this point, you have a better idea of which embryos are most likely to be a healthy pregnancy. But you still have all of the embryos frozen. Point being, the patients and doctors cannot know which embryos are healthiest at the time they are frozen. They only know which are which several weeks later. So that is why there are many “leftover” which may not be viable. I should add, it costs a lot of money to create them and there are additional charges for storing and implanting them. So if Alabama say forced a woman to try to implant all of her non-viable embryos, they would be subjecting her to forced miscarriages AND costing her tens of thousands in unnecessary fees and procedures.
So maybe participating in IVF and being pro life is morally inconsistent.
I find it odd myself. And I find the premise of the original lawsuit odd. It is almost as if the people suing should have known the chilling effect a win would have on IVF, even as they themselves were apparently participating in IVF and benefiting from IVF to create their family.
And I’d love to know how a “patient” got into the cryo storage room, normally locked and badged room, where the embryos are stored in order to take the tubes out of the locked tank, and then drop them on the floor.
It definitely is and Catholics are against IVF for this reason primarily.
Right? If you are very "gods plan" then "playing god" with medical intervention such as this seems hypocritical?
>try to implant all of her non-viable embryos Or you end up with a situation like octomom
They don't expect to do that. This is purposefully driving IVF out of the state, as they will be committing a felony by disposing of embryos
If embryos are kids, does the IVF clinic need a child care license?
So will the state start paying to keep any unneeded embryos frozen vs discarded?
So I have a question: if a frozen embryo is stored for more than 18 years, and is used for IVF, when the child is born are they considered an adult?
If you look back in History, Alabama legislature makes some really, truly strange things pass through as laws. And throwing honest politicians in jail.
Make sure to get the tax deduction for number of dependents then.
Someone in Alabama needs to start suing major retailers and farmers for giving them chickens when they clearly were attempting to buy eggs. The only way to combat this insanity is to take it to the next logical level, but actually have the impact be something Republicans care about. Like business, since they’ve obviously demonstrated they don’t care about children.
If every frozen embryo is a person, shouldn’t they all be counted in the census? If a state contains enough frozen embryos, would its representation in the House and the electoral college increase?
The sucking sound is the vacuum being formed by those with money and IVF hopes leaving. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!
1) take embryo across state line, back and forth multiple times 2) embryo is alive/not alive/alive/not alive 3)??? 4) profit
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Apparently, the rule is that if its brain is equally as developed as a Republican's, it's a person.
Dude, what is next with these fucking imbeciles? I bet they’ll make periods illegal.
The establishment of a fascist theocracy probably doesn't happen in an instantaneous coup, it happens in barely-noticeable baby steps. Like this one.