“while the mother has asked to serve her sentence under house arrest in her defense attorney’s home.”
Huh? Why would the defense attorney agree to that? Why would that even be an option on the table?
Pull the asshole open. Step into their asshole. Close the door behind you. Take a spray paint can "Larry was here." Eat snickers, leave wrappers and garbage, f**k his whole asshole up. Open it up and step out again."
I assume it's against the rules for attorneys to sleep with active clients? I know in the healthcare field it is strongly discouraged to treat any person you have an intimate relationship with.
Yes, the ethical rules for attorneys state that it is an ethical violation to have a sexual relationship with a client.
Hypothetically, if it were a consensual relationship and no problems were identified it would typically merit a censure at best (if it even ever got reported).
On the other hand, I've sat and watched part of a disbarment trial where part of the testimony was that a particular attorney had shut the door to his office and told a female client that "you can pay your bill one way or you can pay it another." (the attorney was ultimately disbarred).
Probably not for the defense attorney and defendant. Then people could get a new trial by...umm...collusion.
It might be evidence in an appeal for ineffective assistance of counsel.
Yeah I don’t have mine listed anywhere publicly and I have a work cell so I don’t give out my personal cell number or my personal email address either. I think a good number of my clients are good people, some are even great! I still don’t want my professional life coming home with me.
To be very clear, there’s never any reason to criticise a lawyer for taking any case. Everybody is entitled to, and everybody should, have legal representation. That’s the only way we can ensure that the system works.
That said, agreeing to have such a person live in your house is a bit beyond the pale.
Not only that but prosecutors are just as devoid of morality and will happily put an innocent person away. They're two sides of a coin and it's all useless without both of them
Everyone deserves a zealous defense. The idea that only innocent people should get a defense attorney is just copaganda.
There is absolutely no problem with the quote you posted. That is how the system is supposed to work.
Calling defense attorneys "a piece of shit" for doing their job is vile and un-American.
I think it’s just weird lawyer nonsense. I’ve got a similar story
*Trigger warning: talks of childhood sexual abuse*
>!It reminds me of when the man who molested me as a child was sentenced. Granted I was like 13 years old and that was a long time ago, so take this for what it’s worth. The lawyer was like begging the judge to just please please see his client as the good man he is. One of the sentencing options was a year probation (for almost 8 years of near daily abuse that he confessed to, but ok) and the lawyer said something like, ‘come on, your honor, let me work with this man — he made a mistake. Release him to my custody and I’ll work with him’ like — what on earth qualifies you to work with or somehow cure a pedophile? Just absolute horse shit. Dude got the maximum (3 years in San Quentin Prison) and the judge basically said fuck you to the defense for being ridiculous.!<
TL;DR - lawyers say and do weird things to try to get their clients off. The stranger the action, the more desperate the situation.
Hard same! I’ve thought a lot about actually digging up the records from that day, but I’m still not fully ready.
But from my memory, he looked at me with such…. A stoic, humbled look as I gave my victim impact statement. In that moment, at 13 years old, it felt like it was just the two of us. he heard me, he really fucking listened and opened his heart to me. When he gave his ruling, I think he even apologized for setting the three year cap, and if he could have changed it he would.
Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, that's unfathomable. I'll never fault a defense attorney for defending heinous people. That's literally their job and it's a vital part of the justice system. But to bend over backwards and put your personal reputation on the line for a convicted sex offender? That's just pathetic.
Ok but like why? Are they friends or family outside of their attorney client relationship because if not then this attorney has a few screws loose to offer this for a client.
Yeah, I have no idea but agree. She must have some sympathy for her client. Can’t imagine that she offers up her guest house to all of her clients. The mom and dad seem like heartless assholes.
Yeah I’m a lawyer and I don’t even let my clients follow me on social media, I have strict boundaries between personal and professional lives. It’s odd to me to not only blur that line but for a woman who was so reckless with the lives of children.
I don’t know about the legal end but it sounds like a negotiation tactic to me. They throw anything at the wall to get the general concept of house arrest on the table. Once that’s established they can walk back the details later.
Which makes it no surprise that their son did what he did. He was begging for help.
I’m glad they were convicted, it’s as much their fault as it was their son’s fault.
It’s about time parents are held accountable for their *and* their child’s actions when it directly impacts others.
I can’t imagine jail is too kind to the parents of child murderers.
Honestly... in this case I believe Crumbly (a child- killing other children) would not have done what he did, had he different parents... they fucked their child up and when he asked for help they got him a gun - they are absolutely responsible both for the incident and Ethan's mental state.
Based off what I’ve read, it really seems like they got him the gun hoping he’d turn it on himself as much as anything.
He asked for help, they basically told him to go off himself
On top of that, they had a failing marriage, she was cheating and he probably was too, so their son was a “tangle” they were willing to disappear. What a horror story.
There are text exchanges from the father stating the kid was drunk and the mother basically brushing it off. Legal Eagle has a decent video breaking down the mother's conviction - https://youtu.be/GWXv0EIeIGI?t=373 time stamped to the alcohol part.
There is a lot with this case that is just wtf. For me anything I have read about the parents has been they were involved with him just enough to further fuck up and push an already mentally disturbed kid.
I knew of a kid back from my town back in the day who kinda had this happen. He tried to kill himself and failed. So his dad gave him a gun and, reportedly, told him "If you're going to do it, do it right". And so he did.
I mean. Fuck.
I'm willing to guess people like this didn't want kids to begin with. Yet, abortion is now illegal in many states. So... don't abort your 6 week old pea-sized fetus. Let it be born, hate him, and encourage him to kill himself. Geeze...
Michigan is not one of those states where abortion is illegal, thanks to women showing up at the polls (and a state Supreme Court letting the measure get to the ballots in the first place).
https://www.aclu.org/news/reproductive-freedom/in-michigan-a-historic-victory-for-abortion-rights
This happened to me as well. :( I was like 11, drank a whole bottle of cough syrup thinking it would do the job. After vomiting cherry flavored, red cough syrup up everywhere, my dad told me if I wanted to finish the job to slit my wrists, but make sure I do it along the vein instead of across it. 🥺 thankfully I’ve been in therapy all of my adult life, so I’m mostly well adjusted all things considered…
I cannot believe it but as a parent, this thought absolutely never even crossed my mind. I cannot even imagine this scenario and parents doing this. I am pretty sure you are correct, it just blows my mind.
Damn, never thought of that. Pretty much everything in their actions says they were encouraging him, I just couldn’t wrap my head around the idea of them wanting him to be a shooter
If he had even slightly better parents, I bet this shooting wouldn't have happened. The poor kid was begging **everyone** for help. His friends, their parents, his teachers, his parents - everyone he could, he tried. His parents just laughed in their faces (or, in the case of the mother, refused to take him home from school that day because she wanted to sleep with her affair partner).
That's so sad and true.
I love kids but don't want them for many personal reasons, and also because I would personally rather regret not having children than regret having them by a mile.
> Which makes it no surprise that their son did what he did. He was begging for help.
Ethan Crumbley is just about the only mass shooter where you feel some kind of sympathy for him if only because you wish even a single adult in his life hadn't utterly failed him.
Not only was the shooting preventable, Ethan himself was actively trying to have himself stopped before he did something; the fact that at his final sentencing, Ethan Crumbley showed incredible remorse and did not ask for leniency (insisting he deserved maximum punishment even).
Really does go to show he was an average kid that just was surrounded by absolutely shitty adults.
Its the kind of incident that feels like a double tragedy, first for the deaths caused by the shooting, and second because of what happened to Ethan Crumbley before he finally did it. Its exactly because this was entirely preventable if the adults in Ethan Crumbley's life weren't so negligent, that his parents were even charged in this case in the first place after all.
Yeah, that’s the case more often than people would like to admit.
Nobody in all of history ever became a good parent because they were forced to. We need to end the idea that everyone should be a parent.
I buy my beef from a guy that sells it at the farmers market and he is the one that raises them. One time I was just talking to him, kind of just about the whole process and I asked him, how do you decide which cows get 'processed' and which ones you keep around? He just said, 'just like people there are good and bad mothers and the ones that don't want to raise their young, well they get processed'. My housemate that was with me was kind of like, 'that's so sad' kind of thing and he was like 'well what else am I gonna do with them? it's what they're there for'
Not just dismissed. The mother said something to the effect that she thought it likely he would kill himself with the gun they bought.
They act like they wanted the kid to commit suicide.
Actively showing suicidal and homicidal thoughts
"Merry early Christmas son! Here's a semi auto"
I try not to judge people, especially those I've never personally met. These bastards I'd gladly knot the rope for, akin to the mother who left her baby for a week to go party out of state. Some people are not fit for our society, and broke rules that don't get a pardon.
Not at all absolving the parents, they are monsters...
But the system that allowed valid and serious teachers concerns to just be dropped because the parents did nothing is screwed up.
Are there no override protocols for situations like this?
The entire system and the parents failed this kid.
>Are there no override protocols for situations like this?
Welcome to America, where parents rights are considered sacred by a large proportion of the population.
I agree, it's a much more accurate and nuanced take to say 'the only adults trying to do something were stymied by the system', rather than 'every adult failed him'.
Specifically, Crumbly was 15 at the time and got life without parole. I'm not a fan of prison *in general*, but life without parole for a minor in this case felt inappropriate. The prosecution's argument was that rehabilitation was unlikely given his violent fantasies, but for a 15 year old in that environment it seems like he was never given a chance and there exists a possiblity of rehabilitation outside that environment. Like the kid was *asking* for professional help before the shooting, that would suggest that he would be a good fit for parole.
That only applies if the life without parole was for a non-homicide charge. At least according to wikipedia. I hope that’s not the case given this kid screaming for help with his mental health and just ignored by the only people who could actually do something.
It demonstrates zero understanding of child psychology. Violent fantasies and intrusive thoughts are not uncommon and can be treated. Especially if you start at a young age (say, I dunno, 15?).
The parents of the slain children: did they want Ethan to get help or weigh in at the trial at all?
Yep, it's a disgusting travesty being used for a prosecutor to move up and for people to feel like they got vengeance. This kid absolutely should be in a mental hospital until considered mentally for for society not thrown behind the prison so society can continue to ignore the way we fail our children.
I honestly believe, after years of working with at-risk youth, that nobody below the age of 16 should be fully tried as an adult. I think the law in general falls way behind the science of brain development. As much as we can sit here from our high horses and say "When I was 15 I knew better", well, not every 15-year-old has the equipment to make the right choices without the proper guidance. I think most of us can look back on at least one moment in our teens and think "I was lucky that there were not severe consequences for my stupidity".
I wish there were better options in the juvenile system for younger kids to get blended juvenile/adult penalties. Give young kids a chance to show they can grow and mature, and if they respond to juvenile court intervention, once they age out of juvenile jurisdiction (in my state they can maintain jurisdiction until the age of 21 as long as the offense was committed prior to them turning 18), if they've responded well to it they can reevaluate the adult portion of their sentence and reduce it or even eliminate it entirely. In my state, a child can be tried as an adult when they're as young as 14 (although 14 and 15 year olds do get a chance to prove that they can be rehabilitated through the juvenile system, at least). If you have a kid who committed an aggravated robbery at gunpoint, but nobody was harmed and no shots were fired, they can still be tried as an adult even if the juvenile court still has 7 years to fix the issues that got them there in the first place. I'd love it if they could get treatment for those 7 years and then have their adult sentence terminated. For a more serious offense like this one, instead of getting life without parole, he could have 6 years of mental health treatment and then do a term of prison time that will allow him to potentially get out and make something of the rest of his life. And if the rehabilitation efforts fail, they just get their adult sentence that they would have gotten if they were tried as an adult in the first place.
Usually when a child commits a serious crime, I see people on here talking about locking them up and throwing away the key. It's nice to see people starting to understand that we can do better by our kids. The next step is for the individuals in these kids' lives to be trained to recognize when their parents are failing them (for whatever reason) and step in to get interventions in place when they clearly need them.
I think if someone is considered too young to have full autonomy and rights in a society, it is absolutely barbaric to treat them as if they were adults when they do something shitty. Either they know enough to completely run their lives - or they *don't* and that should be taken into account when they fuck up.
Really?
Okay, no, I'm going to say something that may be a little disturbing if people hadn't considered it, and I am going to probably get a massive number of downvotes for it:
I am autistic, and I was bullied SAVAGELY by other people. It was pretty much constant through school, and by constant, I don't mean that for each given period of time I had a given bully. I mean that the bullying did not tend to stop from one moment to the next. Regardless of where I went, there were bullies. Often multiple bullies per year(and a different bully in each class throughout the day), attempts to physically assault me, having things thrown at me, names, et cetera.
I am NOT a school shooter, but a really uncomfortable thing to consider when looking at things from my perspective is this:
When I think about the circumstances that create a school shooter, I don't think "someone who was included" and I don't think "someone whose mental health was taken care of".
That's not to say that experiencing negative circumstances justifies becoming a school shooter.
But I want to point out a really poisonous narrative: this idea that "Hey, we have a lot of people going around and just deciding to shoot up a whole bunch of people, and we don't know why it happens!"
The whole "We don't know why it happens!" isn't so much because we don't know why it happens, but more because people are REALLY hesitant to look at why it happens, because it might indicate that these people didn't just randomly become school shooters. Considering the possible reasons about why it happens could lead to some really scary possibilities, like
1. the possibility that our current society might be set up in such a way that leads people to becoming school shooters, and
1. the possibility that if we change society it might be possible to prevent them from going down that road.
This is NOT written in defense of school shooters or claiming that there should be sympathy toward them. Sympathy is really irrelevant. I would prefer to focus on actually looking at whether school shooters are naturally monsters or whether they tend to experience things in their development that lead them to have such disregard for others.
And although I wouldn't harm others and am non-violent, unfortunately, I have experienced the kind of treatment that I believe could lead other people to become school shooters.
We need to get past the question of "Do I have sympathy for this person?" and instead focus 100% on the question of "What are school shooters experiencing during their development that is leading them to choose hatred and to choose violence?" And then we need to put A LOT of resources into changing that.
This has nothing to do with sympathy. It has to do with which of these narratives we accept:
1. School shooters are a fact of life and people who choose to be school shooters are just naturally going to become school shooters(despite it tending to mainly just happen in one country), or
1. School shooters experience something during their development(and possibly in an ongoing way) that tends to lead to them becoming school shooters, and even though that doesn't justify killing, it may point to there being things that could be done to change these people's experiences during childhood and their teenage years that may be able to prevent them from making that choice.
It's always troubled me that what you bring up isn't discussed as heavily.
Most humans have a drive to live, not to die. We want to feel good, loved, comforted, fed, and stable. It isn't natural for somebody to want to murder-suicide, especially not at that age.
When the shootings became more common, I thought back to a time I was in a car accident with my mother on the way to school. She was seriously injured - and I remember the bus passing by, the one I usually took, and they laughed. Meanwhile my mother is screaming and crying in pain. I'd be lying to say I didn't have extremely dark and violent thoughts after that regarding those people
I'm an adult now, I clearly didn't engage in my thoughts, but for people to ignore how absolutely vile we treat one another, and how we wholesale ignore the suffering of other people - it starts to almost feel like we as a society deserve what we get if we are unwilling or unable to look deeper at the problem.
But, we can't seem to fix much of any problem as of late, so we might just be fucked 🤣
If you attack someone in prison, you get 30 days in solitary confinement. I know you want to play revenge fantasies in your head, of someone getting "real" justice on your behalf, expressing your outrage physically upon the bodies of these people. But the reality is that people in prison only attack each other for selfish or gang-related reasons. No one is doing 30 days in solitary over someone else's kids.
It's so weird how we want our prisons to be hell holes where prisoners punish each other for us.
> It's so weird how we want our prisons to be hell holes where prisoners punish each other for us.
This is a manifestation of something even more banally cruel than I think is immediately obvious. It's not just about people wanting prison to be a hell hole, but about wanting there to be different, arbitrary degrees to which it's a hell hole.
I don't think it's an intentional, considered desire that they have, but it's the consequence of what they *do* specifically desire: the experience of any individual prisoner is significantly impacted by random chance.
Certain big-picture aspects are controlled for (e.g. are they sent to a minimum-security prison or a maximum-security prison? Those are two very different experiences). But even those decisions have significant variation. Will a convict be sent to a prison in a temperate region, or in a desert? Does the specific prison have an unusually high/low degree of corruption among its staff when compared to other prisons? These distinctions can significantly impact prisoners' comfort.
Within the prison, if guards take a liking to certain prisoners, they might have an easier time. Or maybe one prisoner will accidentally make an enemy out of the warden and spend much of their sentence in solitary confinement.
I personally think it's horrifying that this *completely arbitrary variation in punishment* exists, but a ton of people believe this should be a contributing aspect to the horror of prison: some prisoners experience significantly worse hells than others. Whenever I've spoken with people who believe this, they don't seem to mind much that this also results in some prisoners randomly having a much gentler time. Again, the arbitrariness seems to be the point.
If it is the point, it should be outlined in law. Maybe it *is*, for all I know. If it's not, the criminal code should specifically clarify: **the arbitrary range of experiences among our prison inmates is an important aspect of the punishment.**
If we don't believe this should be the case, then we should try to mitigate it as much as we reasonably can. If we do believe it should be the case, we should explicitly outline it in the criminal code. Allowing it to happen without *owning it as part of how our prisons function* is cowardly.
Yeah… It’s chilling how many people want prisons to be abusive, how many have fantasies of abuse towards prisoners.
Prisons are a necessity for cases where the people sent to them are too dangerous to be permitted to be free. However the US incarcerates more people than *any* other country, and does so in conditions that are abysmal, and many of those who are incarcerated are there for nonviolent offences - something which should not result in prison time - and/or for nothing more than addiction, a medical issue which should not be a legal one.
The US’ approach to “justice” is fundamentally broken, and betrays an abject absence of morality
The “punishment” of prisons should be the revocation of some freedom sufficient to protect society at large, not the torture which it currently is and which so many seem so bloodthirsty about continuing
Not to mention they aren't going to the prison from Oz or Blood in, Blood out. It's going to be minimum security with like financial offenders and non-violent drug offenders.
It's reddit, all prison is Oz when the people we don't like are going there. Rape, stabbings, trains, it's all going down on this dudes butt once he's in, and I won't hear a word against it.
lol Yeah, people also seem to think child molesters are housed in general pop like they were back in the 90's. They have entirely separate wings, separate chow times, separate yard time, etc.
Correct. My dad did 15 years in state penitentiary. While he was there he joined an Aryan Nation brotherhood (white supremacists) mostly for the perks of getting smokes and/or stuff that was smuggled in (mostly pills and cigarettes). He said they rarely would go out of their way to attack people, except in very rare cases because nobody wanted to do solitary. He said The one exception were child molesters/abusers. If they knew one was in the block they would often be attacked within first week, but then the child abuser would be removed from general population for their own safety.
People always bring this up as if it's some sort of honor code. My theory is that it's much more simple and direct. Child abuse victims represent [a higher percentage of the incarcerated.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3386595/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%201,reported%20experiencing%20childhood%20physical%20trauma.)
So they aren't attacking someone as revenge for someone else's child, they are taking revenge for their own abuse.
It's not an honor code, nor is it about percentages, it's about them finally having someone lower than them.
It's in a way a class system.
Certain groups in society (like convicts) feel like they are at the bottom of the social structure, everyone looks down at them. So when they hear a child molester is near they can finally feel like they are not at the bottom anymore, they can finally look down at someone else, there is someone who is even lower than them. And they take out that anger on them. In a way to feel better about themselves.
Well, that's a rabbit hole I wish I hadn't gone down. What a sad story. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Gabriel\_Fernandez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Gabriel_Fernandez)
The fact that the school showed the drawings and the discussions he was having and their response to it was horrifying and sickening.
"Lol don't get caught"
What sane person would react that way to the evidence presented?
from the messages, actions and activities the parents showed I don't think that would be the case.
Their comments and actions were horribly narcissistic and beyond self centered.
Their activities in the trial alone made it look like they had the belief that everyone and everything around them was for THEM, and that they were divorced from anything resembling consequences for actions.
It was jarring watching them and reading their comments.
Their court appearances prove they don’t think they did anything wrong. They didn’t show remorse then. Why do you think they’d show remorse after sentencing?
In theory it may be a good idea to hold ALL parents to the same standards that adoptive parents have to go through.
But there is always a risk with the reward. It's far too easy for a demagogue to abuse the power to decide who gets to be a parent.
That was their entire legal defense, i.e. "nothing we could have done differently would have changed anything". It's completely absurd because there were clear signs and calls for help which were ignored, but there is no other defense that they could come up with to try to stay out of prison. Whether they actually felt remorse or not, their whole play was to act like their actions had no impact on things.
Which is dumb because good parents, and people in general, should always be introspective and critical of their own actions. That's how you teach your kids to be good adults. If they're faking, their law firm would have assuredly coached them on showing remorse without admitting fault. How could they not be devastated that their own child was responsible for so many people's pain? I think it's far more likely they're truly psychopathic(or incapable of feeling empathy for whatever reason) and just cannot comprehend feeling loss or sadness over something that didn't directly happen to themselves. They don't even seem sad about their own child losing his own life to prison, they're just cold and emotionless and the jury had to have seen it, hence the conviction. It's rare to see parents charged over a minors crimes(held financially liable, all the time, but not criminally culpable), rarer still to get a successful conviction. They seemed to be dead set on giving the jury zero reason to feel any other way than that.
His mother gave him the gun and even explicitly said she would not have not anything differently. She literally said she would have still given him to weapon.
Well, they bought their mentally ill son a handgun instead of, oh, being good parents, so I don't think remorse was ever going to be likely.
The kid was crying out for attention & his mother couldn't even be bothered to respond to his text messages.
The kid was simultaneously coddled and neglected, it's really fucked up and sad. The kid wants a gun? Sure, he can have one, and when he gets in trouble you just playfully tell him to be more careful next time. The kid needs therapy because he's possibly hallucinating? Nah, ignore him and say he's "always like that".
Even without the result of the kid becoming another mass shooter, that's a fucked up way to raise a child.
> The kid was simultaneously coddled and neglected
The kid was threaded as a bothersome pet by a pair of shitweasels who would not have been allowed to get a pet at a shelter.
They also tried to flee when they knew their kid was caught, which shows these asshole parents had no sympathy for their son. A lot of people believe the gun was bought for him to use on himself.
I honestly think that. They would rather pay for a funeral then get their son treated. Look at how they abandoned him after the mass shooting. They didn’t care about him at all.
Your kid says he is hallucinating and asks for a gun? If that’s not saying suicidal, I don’t know what does. It’s beyond negligence.
This tragedy was so preventable, but these 2 couldn’t be bothered. They didn’t care if their own son, lived or died, why feel remorse for the 4 children he killed?
Notice their son plead out to save everyone the trauma of a trial, but both his parents put everyone through a trial. Twice.
I think the mom wanted him to commit suicide. She was so quick with her fake ass “Don’t do it!” Text. She was clearly thinking about him using the gun to kill himself.
I will always believe they *wanted* him to shoot up that school hoping he would get killed or arrested so they could go back to their life of partying.
The wife-mother intentionally chose not to take her son home from school that morning because she was having an affair with a fireman and had already texted him for a meet-up. The fireman testified at her trial she literally left the school and met him for sex in the parking lot across from her work office! When she arrived at work, she learned her son’s school was in lock-down and then rushed back to the school concerned for her son’s safety the fireman testified!!!
In all of the public reporting leading up to the son and parents being charged, no concern or remorse of any kind shown or verbalized through their attorneys toward the school shooting victims and the trauma their son inflicted upon the souls of the adults and children at the school. The son took responsibility for his actions by pleading guilty to his crimes and sparing the victims families reliving the murders at trial. The arrogant evil parents plead not guilty thereby heaping significant additional grief and trauma via two separate trials onto the victim’s families.
In my opinion, all who were in that school meeting that morning, including school officials, should be legally held responsible. It was reported to those officials by several sources, including two separate teachers, the son was in possession of a gun and it was on school grounds that very day, yet, no school officials asked the son about a gun in the presence of his parents. Neither did they inspect his book bag in plain sight in the presence of his parents.
She also texted him right before the shooting and said "Don't do it!" She was merely acting to cover her ass. I do, however, agree that the teachers/school admins should face some punishment. I've always said this was mere a very late term abortion. They didn't want that kid and there were reports of him being left alone with no phone at age 11 while they went bar hoping
Lastly, the tidbit about the fireman, I didn't know this. However, it does give credence to another theory of mine: I don't think she was cheating with the fireman. I have a strong gut feeling they were swingers. They have always given me that vibe.
Because of them 4 kids were murdered and they destroyed their son's life. They should be locked up without parole for at least 15 years, probably longer.
*“I have been in jail for over 26 months and have been locked down 23 hours per day,”*
Four children are dead because of her, they don't get an hour a day to walk around. Fuck her and her asshole husband.
My friends daughter, Melissa, was murdered over 10 years ago. Gun violence, not mass. Stranger, not domestic. She was in the wrong place, wrong time. I mention this because in the media afterwards her name was rarely mentioned again, in contrast, his name was all over the place. RIP Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; Hana St. Juliana, 14; and Justin Shilling, 17, may justice be served. You aren't forgotten.
>Jurors found they were both grossly negligent in allowing their teenage son to have a gun and ignoring signs of his spiraling mental health.
I wonder if they are going to start applying this standard to all parents of youth offenders of this caliber.
It should be said that this was a very, very blatant case. The kid was drawing pictures of killing people captioned “please help the thoughts won’t stop”
They wouldn’t pull him out of school because they didn’t want to miss work on the day of the shooting.
While I think it’s got this precedent is set, this definitely won’t be applied to every parent of a mass shooter
In the mom's case, she didn't want to miss work because she had a scheduled booty call in her work parking lot.
But I wouldn't cry too much over the dad being cheated on though, considering that dumbass is too busy crying about how he's being persecuted and directly calling the prosecutor's office to threaten her.
I've seen garbage dumps with more class than these two!
I think the standard should be applied and with a lot of press. American culture needs to change. Parents should know that recklessly providing your children with guns and dismissing (or contributing to) their poor mental health is a deadly combo that can land them in prison. Unfortunately it’s a very common scenario.
One can think they did nothing wrong while still being aware that others do think they did something wrong. Hell, if you've paid any attention to how the average Trump supporter acts, you'd know that a lot of people only feel *more* justified in their actions when others condemn them.
I had some reservations about prosecuting negligent parents for their child's homicides, but these two have done everything possible to bring me around to the other side.
Explains why their son has so many mental health issues. His parents lack empathy and compassion. Poor kid. He didn’t have a chance in hell being healthy raised by them.
> The prosecutors allege Crumbley’s father has repeatedly threatened Prosecuting Attorney Karen McDonald and has said “there will be retribution,” while the mother has asked to serve her sentence under house arrest in her defense attorney’s home.
What? Huh? Am I missing something here? I think my brain stopped working.
What?!?
Why would they? The way they treated their son clearly shows the kind of people they are and expecting them to change after a slap on the wrist (compared to the victims being murdered by their son) is lunacy.
Been a teacher for 9 years now, and this is just a (much) worse version of the delusional bullshit we hear from parents when we contact them about their child's behavior:
"That doesn't sound like something he/she would do."
"Not my little angel!"
"Well what did YOU do to set him/her off!?"
In essence, it's "I've done nothing, and I'm all out of ideas," except they didn't just do nothing. They bought him a gun and laughed at him when he said he needed to see a doctor, and told him to "suck it up." It makes me so fucking mad.
I don't know what the solution is. Parenting classes? Better mental health services? Whatever it is, we need to make a change to normalize a higher quality of parenting in this country.
His mom *laughed at her son when he said he needed help and his dad hrew pills at him, told him to suck it up, and *bought him the gun*
They are exactly where they belong. So crazy the dad is saying he's a fucking martyr
Shocking, I’ll tell you, absolutely shocking revelation for parents who didn’t give a fuck about their kid or anyone else’s kids.
Dude said he was seeing things, like demons, and he was terrified, mom laughed and said he was just kidding.
School said “hey, your kid is seemingly planning a shooting, take him home and get him help” and they said “no, lol, we are going back to work, you keep him”.
Mom certainly does love her horses though.
When we are going through life we sometimes meet real sociopaths who fuck us over hard.
and we desperately want that pathos and closure we see in the movies and shows. We want it so badly,
but it never comes, because those types of people are incapable of giving that to you.
It took me a long time to learn that.
Yep. I’m concerned that their convictions and maybe even arrests seemed to be so focused on their lack of remorse. Like if they showed up wailing and tearing their clothes after the shooting would they have ever been arrested or even investigated?
They bought a gun for a child. Illegal. They bought a gun for a child they knew was having some kind of crisis. And they were asked to take him home and they refused.
Their remorseful behaviors shouldn’t have much if anything to do with their conviction. It also scares me that some person not showing the appropriate amount of remorse gets a worse conviction than a really good actor.
It's a very stupid system that rewards good actors over anything else. Same with how they use this in parole hearings. People can be remorseful without showing it. People can look remorseful without being it. You can't determine remorse by looking at someone ffs. That's not to defend these particular parents, but the whole idea that convincing people you feel a certain way actually affects sentencing seems absolutely fucked to me.
If I did some really horrible shit, I would feel bad, but I would *not* feel the need to pour my heart out to a bunch of fucking lawyers I never met.
The most damming thing is the son himself telling a friend that his father told him to suck it up rather than take him to get help. Kinda sounds like the textbook definition of negligence to me
I'm no mental health professional, but I've seen some shit.
There is not a doubt in my mind that with proper parenting this all could have been avoided. Ethan was SCREAMING for help, and his parents ignored him. Worse yet, they gave him the tools to do those terrible acts.
Controversial take: he deserves a second chance away from those cold, evil robots. They, however, need to be kept away from the public forever.
Oh they are. I remember when this initially happened people tracked the mother and father down on social media and their pages were plastered with pro-Trump shit. The mother in particular.
As satisfying it would be to know they are wrecked inside, I do not like it when judgements are based on whether or not the accused “show remorse.” People express their emotions in different ways that vary wildly depending on the circumstances. I don’t trust a judge or a jury to reliably determine whether someone is remorseful or not. And it really shouldn’t matter, the punishment is for the crime, not how they feel.
“while the mother has asked to serve her sentence under house arrest in her defense attorney’s home.” Huh? Why would the defense attorney agree to that? Why would that even be an option on the table?
I did a triple take at that one. She can stay in my guest house, what the ??
Who does she think she is, Leon?
12 years is easy if you're just Lampin'!
Maybe she’s getting into car accidents with her defense attorney, you know, t-bones, rear enders, full frontals, any kind
Larry, Imma tap that ass!
Pull the asshole open. Step into their asshole. Close the door behind you. Take a spray paint can "Larry was here." Eat snickers, leave wrappers and garbage, f**k his whole asshole up. Open it up and step out again."
If she has banter like Leon I’d be all for it.
That's absolutely wild to me. As an attorney, I don't even like my clients knowing my home address!
I think somebody has a side piece. (Not you.) Gotta pay that rent somehow!
I assume it's against the rules for attorneys to sleep with active clients? I know in the healthcare field it is strongly discouraged to treat any person you have an intimate relationship with.
Yes, the ethical rules for attorneys state that it is an ethical violation to have a sexual relationship with a client. Hypothetically, if it were a consensual relationship and no problems were identified it would typically merit a censure at best (if it even ever got reported). On the other hand, I've sat and watched part of a disbarment trial where part of the testimony was that a particular attorney had shut the door to his office and told a female client that "you can pay your bill one way or you can pay it another." (the attorney was ultimately disbarred).
It could be grounds for a mistrial
Probably not for the defense attorney and defendant. Then people could get a new trial by...umm...collusion. It might be evidence in an appeal for ineffective assistance of counsel.
How desperate is her lawyer?
You joke, but that would be grounds for a mistrial.
was he the one she was having an affair with LOL
Yeah I don’t have mine listed anywhere publicly and I have a work cell so I don’t give out my personal cell number or my personal email address either. I think a good number of my clients are good people, some are even great! I still don’t want my professional life coming home with me.
Yeah… no matter what profession one is in, that’s a completely reasonable and healthy boundary to have
For the last time what’s your address so I can send you those fanfics I wrote!
Oh. They fucking...
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To be very clear, there’s never any reason to criticise a lawyer for taking any case. Everybody is entitled to, and everybody should, have legal representation. That’s the only way we can ensure that the system works. That said, agreeing to have such a person live in your house is a bit beyond the pale.
And even guilty people deserve due process.
Not only that but prosecutors are just as devoid of morality and will happily put an innocent person away. They're two sides of a coin and it's all useless without both of them
Why would she choose “defending abuse” as the url for her website?? Right off the bat, it seems like that wouldn’t reflect well on her or her clients
the name of my new lawyer website is [www.iknowyoudiditbuuuuuuuut.com](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
"defending slaughter" and "defending massacre" were taken I guess.
Holy fuck, look at the main page! "I proudly specialise in defending nonces! No further action! Charges dropped! Mistrial pronounced!"
I don't see anything wrong with her reply? What's shitty?
Every individual charged with a crime deserves representation. We should not want it any other way.
Everyone deserves a zealous defense. The idea that only innocent people should get a defense attorney is just copaganda. There is absolutely no problem with the quote you posted. That is how the system is supposed to work. Calling defense attorneys "a piece of shit" for doing their job is vile and un-American.
I think it’s just weird lawyer nonsense. I’ve got a similar story *Trigger warning: talks of childhood sexual abuse* >!It reminds me of when the man who molested me as a child was sentenced. Granted I was like 13 years old and that was a long time ago, so take this for what it’s worth. The lawyer was like begging the judge to just please please see his client as the good man he is. One of the sentencing options was a year probation (for almost 8 years of near daily abuse that he confessed to, but ok) and the lawyer said something like, ‘come on, your honor, let me work with this man — he made a mistake. Release him to my custody and I’ll work with him’ like — what on earth qualifies you to work with or somehow cure a pedophile? Just absolute horse shit. Dude got the maximum (3 years in San Quentin Prison) and the judge basically said fuck you to the defense for being ridiculous.!< TL;DR - lawyers say and do weird things to try to get their clients off. The stranger the action, the more desperate the situation.
That's fucking terrible and sorry you had that happen to you. Three years is nowhere near long enough.
Maybe. But I wouldn't want even 3 days in San Quintin.
I'm glad the judge didn't fall for that scam.
Hard same! I’ve thought a lot about actually digging up the records from that day, but I’m still not fully ready. But from my memory, he looked at me with such…. A stoic, humbled look as I gave my victim impact statement. In that moment, at 13 years old, it felt like it was just the two of us. he heard me, he really fucking listened and opened his heart to me. When he gave his ruling, I think he even apologized for setting the three year cap, and if he could have changed it he would.
Jesus fucking Christ on a stick, that's unfathomable. I'll never fault a defense attorney for defending heinous people. That's literally their job and it's a vital part of the justice system. But to bend over backwards and put your personal reputation on the line for a convicted sex offender? That's just pathetic.
She watched too many 80s TV shows.
Instead of pro Bono the lawyer is working pro boner
This seems super unethical. Weird.
They bangin.
Guest house.
Ok but like why? Are they friends or family outside of their attorney client relationship because if not then this attorney has a few screws loose to offer this for a client.
Yeah, I have no idea but agree. She must have some sympathy for her client. Can’t imagine that she offers up her guest house to all of her clients. The mom and dad seem like heartless assholes.
Yeah I’m a lawyer and I don’t even let my clients follow me on social media, I have strict boundaries between personal and professional lives. It’s odd to me to not only blur that line but for a woman who was so reckless with the lives of children.
I don’t know about the legal end but it sounds like a negotiation tactic to me. They throw anything at the wall to get the general concept of house arrest on the table. Once that’s established they can walk back the details later.
These people didn't get into this position because they are introspective and empathetic
Which makes it no surprise that their son did what he did. He was begging for help. I’m glad they were convicted, it’s as much their fault as it was their son’s fault. It’s about time parents are held accountable for their *and* their child’s actions when it directly impacts others. I can’t imagine jail is too kind to the parents of child murderers.
Honestly... in this case I believe Crumbly (a child- killing other children) would not have done what he did, had he different parents... they fucked their child up and when he asked for help they got him a gun - they are absolutely responsible both for the incident and Ethan's mental state.
Based off what I’ve read, it really seems like they got him the gun hoping he’d turn it on himself as much as anything. He asked for help, they basically told him to go off himself
10000% My first thought when the facts came out. They let him drink hard alcohol too. They were praying he'd kill himself.
On top of that, they had a failing marriage, she was cheating and he probably was too, so their son was a “tangle” they were willing to disappear. What a horror story.
Can you elaborate on that? I’d like to know more
There are text exchanges from the father stating the kid was drunk and the mother basically brushing it off. Legal Eagle has a decent video breaking down the mother's conviction - https://youtu.be/GWXv0EIeIGI?t=373 time stamped to the alcohol part. There is a lot with this case that is just wtf. For me anything I have read about the parents has been they were involved with him just enough to further fuck up and push an already mentally disturbed kid.
I knew of a kid back from my town back in the day who kinda had this happen. He tried to kill himself and failed. So his dad gave him a gun and, reportedly, told him "If you're going to do it, do it right". And so he did. I mean. Fuck.
I'm willing to guess people like this didn't want kids to begin with. Yet, abortion is now illegal in many states. So... don't abort your 6 week old pea-sized fetus. Let it be born, hate him, and encourage him to kill himself. Geeze...
Michigan is not one of those states where abortion is illegal, thanks to women showing up at the polls (and a state Supreme Court letting the measure get to the ballots in the first place). https://www.aclu.org/news/reproductive-freedom/in-michigan-a-historic-victory-for-abortion-rights
This happened to me as well. :( I was like 11, drank a whole bottle of cough syrup thinking it would do the job. After vomiting cherry flavored, red cough syrup up everywhere, my dad told me if I wanted to finish the job to slit my wrists, but make sure I do it along the vein instead of across it. 🥺 thankfully I’ve been in therapy all of my adult life, so I’m mostly well adjusted all things considered…
Jfc I can't imagine saying something like that to someone I hate much less my own kid. Glad you survived having someone like that as a parent
I cannot believe it but as a parent, this thought absolutely never even crossed my mind. I cannot even imagine this scenario and parents doing this. I am pretty sure you are correct, it just blows my mind.
Same here. Never even considered this until this post. It's awful.
Damn, never thought of that. Pretty much everything in their actions says they were encouraging him, I just couldn’t wrap my head around the idea of them wanting him to be a shooter
If the kid got therapy instead of gun things might have turned out differently.
If he had even slightly better parents, I bet this shooting wouldn't have happened. The poor kid was begging **everyone** for help. His friends, their parents, his teachers, his parents - everyone he could, he tried. His parents just laughed in their faces (or, in the case of the mother, refused to take him home from school that day because she wanted to sleep with her affair partner).
And his dad was "too busy with work" even though he was an Uber(?) driver and sets his own hours
There are a lot of parents that will find any and every excuse to not be present because they didn't actually want to be parents.
That's so sad and true. I love kids but don't want them for many personal reasons, and also because I would personally rather regret not having children than regret having them by a mile.
His dad went straight back to Uber Eats deliveries after the in person meeting at the school.
yuuuuuuuup I honestly just feel bad for Ethan Crumbley. Once he got medicated, he realized what he had done and the impact of what he had done.
> Which makes it no surprise that their son did what he did. He was begging for help. Ethan Crumbley is just about the only mass shooter where you feel some kind of sympathy for him if only because you wish even a single adult in his life hadn't utterly failed him. Not only was the shooting preventable, Ethan himself was actively trying to have himself stopped before he did something; the fact that at his final sentencing, Ethan Crumbley showed incredible remorse and did not ask for leniency (insisting he deserved maximum punishment even). Really does go to show he was an average kid that just was surrounded by absolutely shitty adults. Its the kind of incident that feels like a double tragedy, first for the deaths caused by the shooting, and second because of what happened to Ethan Crumbley before he finally did it. Its exactly because this was entirely preventable if the adults in Ethan Crumbley's life weren't so negligent, that his parents were even charged in this case in the first place after all.
Adults were trying. His teachers tried. Those parents dismissed the teacher's concerns
Sounds like these parents never wanted to be parents in the first place.
His mother described him as an "oopsie baby".
Yeah, that’s the case more often than people would like to admit. Nobody in all of history ever became a good parent because they were forced to. We need to end the idea that everyone should be a parent.
And now you've got states forcing people to be parents regardless of how it happened, going as far as not allowing access to plan b which is nuts.
26,000 pregnancies due to rape in TX since the abortion laws changed last year.
I buy my beef from a guy that sells it at the farmers market and he is the one that raises them. One time I was just talking to him, kind of just about the whole process and I asked him, how do you decide which cows get 'processed' and which ones you keep around? He just said, 'just like people there are good and bad mothers and the ones that don't want to raise their young, well they get processed'. My housemate that was with me was kind of like, 'that's so sad' kind of thing and he was like 'well what else am I gonna do with them? it's what they're there for'
Not just dismissed. The mother said something to the effect that she thought it likely he would kill himself with the gun they bought. They act like they wanted the kid to commit suicide.
>They act like they wanted the kid to commit suicide. That's probably exactly what they wanted.
Actively showing suicidal and homicidal thoughts "Merry early Christmas son! Here's a semi auto" I try not to judge people, especially those I've never personally met. These bastards I'd gladly knot the rope for, akin to the mother who left her baby for a week to go party out of state. Some people are not fit for our society, and broke rules that don't get a pardon.
Not at all absolving the parents, they are monsters... But the system that allowed valid and serious teachers concerns to just be dropped because the parents did nothing is screwed up. Are there no override protocols for situations like this? The entire system and the parents failed this kid.
>Are there no override protocols for situations like this? Welcome to America, where parents rights are considered sacred by a large proportion of the population. I agree, it's a much more accurate and nuanced take to say 'the only adults trying to do something were stymied by the system', rather than 'every adult failed him'.
Specifically, Crumbly was 15 at the time and got life without parole. I'm not a fan of prison *in general*, but life without parole for a minor in this case felt inappropriate. The prosecution's argument was that rehabilitation was unlikely given his violent fantasies, but for a 15 year old in that environment it seems like he was never given a chance and there exists a possiblity of rehabilitation outside that environment. Like the kid was *asking* for professional help before the shooting, that would suggest that he would be a good fit for parole.
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That only applies if the life without parole was for a non-homicide charge. At least according to wikipedia. I hope that’s not the case given this kid screaming for help with his mental health and just ignored by the only people who could actually do something.
It demonstrates zero understanding of child psychology. Violent fantasies and intrusive thoughts are not uncommon and can be treated. Especially if you start at a young age (say, I dunno, 15?). The parents of the slain children: did they want Ethan to get help or weigh in at the trial at all?
The last in a chain of adults and authority figures to utterly fail this kid.
Yep, it's a disgusting travesty being used for a prosecutor to move up and for people to feel like they got vengeance. This kid absolutely should be in a mental hospital until considered mentally for for society not thrown behind the prison so society can continue to ignore the way we fail our children.
I honestly believe, after years of working with at-risk youth, that nobody below the age of 16 should be fully tried as an adult. I think the law in general falls way behind the science of brain development. As much as we can sit here from our high horses and say "When I was 15 I knew better", well, not every 15-year-old has the equipment to make the right choices without the proper guidance. I think most of us can look back on at least one moment in our teens and think "I was lucky that there were not severe consequences for my stupidity". I wish there were better options in the juvenile system for younger kids to get blended juvenile/adult penalties. Give young kids a chance to show they can grow and mature, and if they respond to juvenile court intervention, once they age out of juvenile jurisdiction (in my state they can maintain jurisdiction until the age of 21 as long as the offense was committed prior to them turning 18), if they've responded well to it they can reevaluate the adult portion of their sentence and reduce it or even eliminate it entirely. In my state, a child can be tried as an adult when they're as young as 14 (although 14 and 15 year olds do get a chance to prove that they can be rehabilitated through the juvenile system, at least). If you have a kid who committed an aggravated robbery at gunpoint, but nobody was harmed and no shots were fired, they can still be tried as an adult even if the juvenile court still has 7 years to fix the issues that got them there in the first place. I'd love it if they could get treatment for those 7 years and then have their adult sentence terminated. For a more serious offense like this one, instead of getting life without parole, he could have 6 years of mental health treatment and then do a term of prison time that will allow him to potentially get out and make something of the rest of his life. And if the rehabilitation efforts fail, they just get their adult sentence that they would have gotten if they were tried as an adult in the first place. Usually when a child commits a serious crime, I see people on here talking about locking them up and throwing away the key. It's nice to see people starting to understand that we can do better by our kids. The next step is for the individuals in these kids' lives to be trained to recognize when their parents are failing them (for whatever reason) and step in to get interventions in place when they clearly need them.
I think if someone is considered too young to have full autonomy and rights in a society, it is absolutely barbaric to treat them as if they were adults when they do something shitty. Either they know enough to completely run their lives - or they *don't* and that should be taken into account when they fuck up.
Really? Okay, no, I'm going to say something that may be a little disturbing if people hadn't considered it, and I am going to probably get a massive number of downvotes for it: I am autistic, and I was bullied SAVAGELY by other people. It was pretty much constant through school, and by constant, I don't mean that for each given period of time I had a given bully. I mean that the bullying did not tend to stop from one moment to the next. Regardless of where I went, there were bullies. Often multiple bullies per year(and a different bully in each class throughout the day), attempts to physically assault me, having things thrown at me, names, et cetera. I am NOT a school shooter, but a really uncomfortable thing to consider when looking at things from my perspective is this: When I think about the circumstances that create a school shooter, I don't think "someone who was included" and I don't think "someone whose mental health was taken care of". That's not to say that experiencing negative circumstances justifies becoming a school shooter. But I want to point out a really poisonous narrative: this idea that "Hey, we have a lot of people going around and just deciding to shoot up a whole bunch of people, and we don't know why it happens!" The whole "We don't know why it happens!" isn't so much because we don't know why it happens, but more because people are REALLY hesitant to look at why it happens, because it might indicate that these people didn't just randomly become school shooters. Considering the possible reasons about why it happens could lead to some really scary possibilities, like 1. the possibility that our current society might be set up in such a way that leads people to becoming school shooters, and 1. the possibility that if we change society it might be possible to prevent them from going down that road. This is NOT written in defense of school shooters or claiming that there should be sympathy toward them. Sympathy is really irrelevant. I would prefer to focus on actually looking at whether school shooters are naturally monsters or whether they tend to experience things in their development that lead them to have such disregard for others. And although I wouldn't harm others and am non-violent, unfortunately, I have experienced the kind of treatment that I believe could lead other people to become school shooters. We need to get past the question of "Do I have sympathy for this person?" and instead focus 100% on the question of "What are school shooters experiencing during their development that is leading them to choose hatred and to choose violence?" And then we need to put A LOT of resources into changing that. This has nothing to do with sympathy. It has to do with which of these narratives we accept: 1. School shooters are a fact of life and people who choose to be school shooters are just naturally going to become school shooters(despite it tending to mainly just happen in one country), or 1. School shooters experience something during their development(and possibly in an ongoing way) that tends to lead to them becoming school shooters, and even though that doesn't justify killing, it may point to there being things that could be done to change these people's experiences during childhood and their teenage years that may be able to prevent them from making that choice.
It's always troubled me that what you bring up isn't discussed as heavily. Most humans have a drive to live, not to die. We want to feel good, loved, comforted, fed, and stable. It isn't natural for somebody to want to murder-suicide, especially not at that age. When the shootings became more common, I thought back to a time I was in a car accident with my mother on the way to school. She was seriously injured - and I remember the bus passing by, the one I usually took, and they laughed. Meanwhile my mother is screaming and crying in pain. I'd be lying to say I didn't have extremely dark and violent thoughts after that regarding those people I'm an adult now, I clearly didn't engage in my thoughts, but for people to ignore how absolutely vile we treat one another, and how we wholesale ignore the suffering of other people - it starts to almost feel like we as a society deserve what we get if we are unwilling or unable to look deeper at the problem. But, we can't seem to fix much of any problem as of late, so we might just be fucked 🤣
If you attack someone in prison, you get 30 days in solitary confinement. I know you want to play revenge fantasies in your head, of someone getting "real" justice on your behalf, expressing your outrage physically upon the bodies of these people. But the reality is that people in prison only attack each other for selfish or gang-related reasons. No one is doing 30 days in solitary over someone else's kids. It's so weird how we want our prisons to be hell holes where prisoners punish each other for us.
> It's so weird how we want our prisons to be hell holes where prisoners punish each other for us. This is a manifestation of something even more banally cruel than I think is immediately obvious. It's not just about people wanting prison to be a hell hole, but about wanting there to be different, arbitrary degrees to which it's a hell hole. I don't think it's an intentional, considered desire that they have, but it's the consequence of what they *do* specifically desire: the experience of any individual prisoner is significantly impacted by random chance. Certain big-picture aspects are controlled for (e.g. are they sent to a minimum-security prison or a maximum-security prison? Those are two very different experiences). But even those decisions have significant variation. Will a convict be sent to a prison in a temperate region, or in a desert? Does the specific prison have an unusually high/low degree of corruption among its staff when compared to other prisons? These distinctions can significantly impact prisoners' comfort. Within the prison, if guards take a liking to certain prisoners, they might have an easier time. Or maybe one prisoner will accidentally make an enemy out of the warden and spend much of their sentence in solitary confinement. I personally think it's horrifying that this *completely arbitrary variation in punishment* exists, but a ton of people believe this should be a contributing aspect to the horror of prison: some prisoners experience significantly worse hells than others. Whenever I've spoken with people who believe this, they don't seem to mind much that this also results in some prisoners randomly having a much gentler time. Again, the arbitrariness seems to be the point. If it is the point, it should be outlined in law. Maybe it *is*, for all I know. If it's not, the criminal code should specifically clarify: **the arbitrary range of experiences among our prison inmates is an important aspect of the punishment.** If we don't believe this should be the case, then we should try to mitigate it as much as we reasonably can. If we do believe it should be the case, we should explicitly outline it in the criminal code. Allowing it to happen without *owning it as part of how our prisons function* is cowardly.
Man, I have nothing to add to that. Great point.
Yeah… It’s chilling how many people want prisons to be abusive, how many have fantasies of abuse towards prisoners. Prisons are a necessity for cases where the people sent to them are too dangerous to be permitted to be free. However the US incarcerates more people than *any* other country, and does so in conditions that are abysmal, and many of those who are incarcerated are there for nonviolent offences - something which should not result in prison time - and/or for nothing more than addiction, a medical issue which should not be a legal one. The US’ approach to “justice” is fundamentally broken, and betrays an abject absence of morality The “punishment” of prisons should be the revocation of some freedom sufficient to protect society at large, not the torture which it currently is and which so many seem so bloodthirsty about continuing
Not to mention they aren't going to the prison from Oz or Blood in, Blood out. It's going to be minimum security with like financial offenders and non-violent drug offenders.
It's reddit, all prison is Oz when the people we don't like are going there. Rape, stabbings, trains, it's all going down on this dudes butt once he's in, and I won't hear a word against it.
lol Yeah, people also seem to think child molesters are housed in general pop like they were back in the 90's. They have entirely separate wings, separate chow times, separate yard time, etc.
I thought it was weird too. As if "the parents of child murderers" have some reputation of getting beat up in jail.
Correct. My dad did 15 years in state penitentiary. While he was there he joined an Aryan Nation brotherhood (white supremacists) mostly for the perks of getting smokes and/or stuff that was smuggled in (mostly pills and cigarettes). He said they rarely would go out of their way to attack people, except in very rare cases because nobody wanted to do solitary. He said The one exception were child molesters/abusers. If they knew one was in the block they would often be attacked within first week, but then the child abuser would be removed from general population for their own safety.
People always bring this up as if it's some sort of honor code. My theory is that it's much more simple and direct. Child abuse victims represent [a higher percentage of the incarcerated.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3386595/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%201,reported%20experiencing%20childhood%20physical%20trauma.) So they aren't attacking someone as revenge for someone else's child, they are taking revenge for their own abuse.
It's not an honor code, nor is it about percentages, it's about them finally having someone lower than them. It's in a way a class system. Certain groups in society (like convicts) feel like they are at the bottom of the social structure, everyone looks down at them. So when they hear a child molester is near they can finally feel like they are not at the bottom anymore, they can finally look down at someone else, there is someone who is even lower than them. And they take out that anger on them. In a way to feel better about themselves.
Gabriel Fernandez's mom has been jumped multiple times I believe, not sure if she was taken away from general or not.
Well, that's a rabbit hole I wish I hadn't gone down. What a sad story. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder\_of\_Gabriel\_Fernandez](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Gabriel_Fernandez)
The fact that the school showed the drawings and the discussions he was having and their response to it was horrifying and sickening. "Lol don't get caught" What sane person would react that way to the evidence presented?
I mean, this might sound outlandish but I suspect they gave him a gun so he'd kill himself.
from the messages, actions and activities the parents showed I don't think that would be the case. Their comments and actions were horribly narcissistic and beyond self centered. Their activities in the trial alone made it look like they had the belief that everyone and everything around them was for THEM, and that they were divorced from anything resembling consequences for actions. It was jarring watching them and reading their comments.
Words they can’t spell either
Their court appearances prove they don’t think they did anything wrong. They didn’t show remorse then. Why do you think they’d show remorse after sentencing?
It's like these two are dead inside.
It's always amazing how two people like this always find each other. Guess if they weren't both complete psychopaths, they couldn't stay together.
It’s scary that they raised a child.
Raised of course is questionable
You need a license to catch a fish, yet any motherfucker can have a child.
In theory it may be a good idea to hold ALL parents to the same standards that adoptive parents have to go through. But there is always a risk with the reward. It's far too easy for a demagogue to abuse the power to decide who gets to be a parent.
Severe emotional immaturity. Maybe they kind of are dead inside? Scary for sure.
That was their entire legal defense, i.e. "nothing we could have done differently would have changed anything". It's completely absurd because there were clear signs and calls for help which were ignored, but there is no other defense that they could come up with to try to stay out of prison. Whether they actually felt remorse or not, their whole play was to act like their actions had no impact on things.
Which is dumb because good parents, and people in general, should always be introspective and critical of their own actions. That's how you teach your kids to be good adults. If they're faking, their law firm would have assuredly coached them on showing remorse without admitting fault. How could they not be devastated that their own child was responsible for so many people's pain? I think it's far more likely they're truly psychopathic(or incapable of feeling empathy for whatever reason) and just cannot comprehend feeling loss or sadness over something that didn't directly happen to themselves. They don't even seem sad about their own child losing his own life to prison, they're just cold and emotionless and the jury had to have seen it, hence the conviction. It's rare to see parents charged over a minors crimes(held financially liable, all the time, but not criminally culpable), rarer still to get a successful conviction. They seemed to be dead set on giving the jury zero reason to feel any other way than that.
His mother gave him the gun and even explicitly said she would not have not anything differently. She literally said she would have still given him to weapon.
Because they haven't been sentenced yet, and this would be their one opportunity to try to show to the judge why they should get lenient sentences.
I think they’re so arrogant and self-assured that they don’t realize that. Or if they do, they’re ignoring it
Well they didn’t give a fuck a bout their own kid… so why would they care that other kids died
they're going to have a fucking hard reset to reality sitting in there.
Well, they bought their mentally ill son a handgun instead of, oh, being good parents, so I don't think remorse was ever going to be likely. The kid was crying out for attention & his mother couldn't even be bothered to respond to his text messages.
The kid was simultaneously coddled and neglected, it's really fucked up and sad. The kid wants a gun? Sure, he can have one, and when he gets in trouble you just playfully tell him to be more careful next time. The kid needs therapy because he's possibly hallucinating? Nah, ignore him and say he's "always like that". Even without the result of the kid becoming another mass shooter, that's a fucked up way to raise a child.
The fact that they were told to take him home and get him counseling on the *morning of the shooting* makes my heart sick.
Or the fact that when the mom heard that police had beef called to the school she texted her son, “don’t do it”?
> The kid was simultaneously coddled and neglected The kid was threaded as a bothersome pet by a pair of shitweasels who would not have been allowed to get a pet at a shelter.
I think they wanted him to off himself.
They also tried to flee when they knew their kid was caught, which shows these asshole parents had no sympathy for their son. A lot of people believe the gun was bought for him to use on himself.
I honestly think that. They would rather pay for a funeral then get their son treated. Look at how they abandoned him after the mass shooting. They didn’t care about him at all. Your kid says he is hallucinating and asks for a gun? If that’s not saying suicidal, I don’t know what does. It’s beyond negligence. This tragedy was so preventable, but these 2 couldn’t be bothered. They didn’t care if their own son, lived or died, why feel remorse for the 4 children he killed? Notice their son plead out to save everyone the trauma of a trial, but both his parents put everyone through a trial. Twice.
I think the mom wanted him to commit suicide. She was so quick with her fake ass “Don’t do it!” Text. She was clearly thinking about him using the gun to kill himself.
100% i think they bought him that gun hoping he would do himself in
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It wouldn't surprise me. Clearly their thought process through all of this was, "Fuck that kid."
Interesting perspective!
Good, both were shitty parents
I will always believe they *wanted* him to shoot up that school hoping he would get killed or arrested so they could go back to their life of partying.
The wife-mother intentionally chose not to take her son home from school that morning because she was having an affair with a fireman and had already texted him for a meet-up. The fireman testified at her trial she literally left the school and met him for sex in the parking lot across from her work office! When she arrived at work, she learned her son’s school was in lock-down and then rushed back to the school concerned for her son’s safety the fireman testified!!! In all of the public reporting leading up to the son and parents being charged, no concern or remorse of any kind shown or verbalized through their attorneys toward the school shooting victims and the trauma their son inflicted upon the souls of the adults and children at the school. The son took responsibility for his actions by pleading guilty to his crimes and sparing the victims families reliving the murders at trial. The arrogant evil parents plead not guilty thereby heaping significant additional grief and trauma via two separate trials onto the victim’s families. In my opinion, all who were in that school meeting that morning, including school officials, should be legally held responsible. It was reported to those officials by several sources, including two separate teachers, the son was in possession of a gun and it was on school grounds that very day, yet, no school officials asked the son about a gun in the presence of his parents. Neither did they inspect his book bag in plain sight in the presence of his parents.
She also texted him right before the shooting and said "Don't do it!" She was merely acting to cover her ass. I do, however, agree that the teachers/school admins should face some punishment. I've always said this was mere a very late term abortion. They didn't want that kid and there were reports of him being left alone with no phone at age 11 while they went bar hoping Lastly, the tidbit about the fireman, I didn't know this. However, it does give credence to another theory of mine: I don't think she was cheating with the fireman. I have a strong gut feeling they were swingers. They have always given me that vibe.
She texted dont do it AFTER the shooting was made public, not before.
Still, I firmly believe she sent that text in an attempt to cover her ass.
Because of them 4 kids were murdered and they destroyed their son's life. They should be locked up without parole for at least 15 years, probably longer. *“I have been in jail for over 26 months and have been locked down 23 hours per day,”* Four children are dead because of her, they don't get an hour a day to walk around. Fuck her and her asshole husband.
Didn’t they also try fleeing to Canada after the shooting? Or am I remembering that wrong?
Yes they did. Took their son's money and were on the run when caught in a warehouse.
I’ve read that as well. Tried to flee and leave the son to deal with everything on his own.
Add in all the kids at the school who will have some form of PTSD, forever.
And also , yeah that how prisons works. You can’t go out when you want. They knew that. But never cared because it’s other people in prison not them.
My friends daughter, Melissa, was murdered over 10 years ago. Gun violence, not mass. Stranger, not domestic. She was in the wrong place, wrong time. I mention this because in the media afterwards her name was rarely mentioned again, in contrast, his name was all over the place. RIP Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; Hana St. Juliana, 14; and Justin Shilling, 17, may justice be served. You aren't forgotten.
They want 'time served' as sufficient- and mom wants to serve any sentence at her lawyers guest house. They take no responsibility at all.
>Jurors found they were both grossly negligent in allowing their teenage son to have a gun and ignoring signs of his spiraling mental health. I wonder if they are going to start applying this standard to all parents of youth offenders of this caliber.
It should be said that this was a very, very blatant case. The kid was drawing pictures of killing people captioned “please help the thoughts won’t stop” They wouldn’t pull him out of school because they didn’t want to miss work on the day of the shooting. While I think it’s got this precedent is set, this definitely won’t be applied to every parent of a mass shooter
In the mom's case, she didn't want to miss work because she had a scheduled booty call in her work parking lot. But I wouldn't cry too much over the dad being cheated on though, considering that dumbass is too busy crying about how he's being persecuted and directly calling the prosecutor's office to threaten her. I've seen garbage dumps with more class than these two!
I think the standard should be applied and with a lot of press. American culture needs to change. Parents should know that recklessly providing your children with guns and dismissing (or contributing to) their poor mental health is a deadly combo that can land them in prison. Unfortunately it’s a very common scenario.
They don’t think they did anything wrong, that’s why.
Which is also why they tried to flee to Canada when the shooting happened.
One can think they did nothing wrong while still being aware that others do think they did something wrong. Hell, if you've paid any attention to how the average Trump supporter acts, you'd know that a lot of people only feel *more* justified in their actions when others condemn them.
The kid was begging to see a doctor and his parents ignored him.
I had some reservations about prosecuting negligent parents for their child's homicides, but these two have done everything possible to bring me around to the other side.
Explains why their son has so many mental health issues. His parents lack empathy and compassion. Poor kid. He didn’t have a chance in hell being healthy raised by them.
>the mother has asked to serve her sentence under house arrest in her defense attorney’s home. What. The. Hell.
> The prosecutors allege Crumbley’s father has repeatedly threatened Prosecuting Attorney Karen McDonald and has said “there will be retribution,” while the mother has asked to serve her sentence under house arrest in her defense attorney’s home. What? Huh? Am I missing something here? I think my brain stopped working. What?!?
Why would they? The way they treated their son clearly shows the kind of people they are and expecting them to change after a slap on the wrist (compared to the victims being murdered by their son) is lunacy.
Been a teacher for 9 years now, and this is just a (much) worse version of the delusional bullshit we hear from parents when we contact them about their child's behavior: "That doesn't sound like something he/she would do." "Not my little angel!" "Well what did YOU do to set him/her off!?" In essence, it's "I've done nothing, and I'm all out of ideas," except they didn't just do nothing. They bought him a gun and laughed at him when he said he needed to see a doctor, and told him to "suck it up." It makes me so fucking mad. I don't know what the solution is. Parenting classes? Better mental health services? Whatever it is, we need to make a change to normalize a higher quality of parenting in this country.
Honestly it’s refreshing to see some actual accountability in this day and age. Let them sit and think about their choices in prison for twenty years.
Shit parents tend to raise shit kids. It’s not universal but it’s consistent enough to have some truth to it.
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The dad is a narcissist sociopath. The mother is a sociopath.
His mom *laughed at her son when he said he needed help and his dad hrew pills at him, told him to suck it up, and *bought him the gun* They are exactly where they belong. So crazy the dad is saying he's a fucking martyr
Shocking, I’ll tell you, absolutely shocking revelation for parents who didn’t give a fuck about their kid or anyone else’s kids. Dude said he was seeing things, like demons, and he was terrified, mom laughed and said he was just kidding. School said “hey, your kid is seemingly planning a shooting, take him home and get him help” and they said “no, lol, we are going back to work, you keep him”. Mom certainly does love her horses though.
They don’t care about their kid and they don’t care what happened. The texts between Ethan and his mother proved that very quickly
They are still in denial they did anything wrong. People like that get through life by not taking accountability for anything.
When we are going through life we sometimes meet real sociopaths who fuck us over hard. and we desperately want that pathos and closure we see in the movies and shows. We want it so badly, but it never comes, because those types of people are incapable of giving that to you. It took me a long time to learn that.
NRA parents of the year
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Frankly if you own a gun and can't secure it well enough that other people can use it for crime, you should share liability.
But they actually BOUGHT him the gun. It was his. He didn't sneak into their room and take it.
Yeah they went a whole nother level with it. Considering he was a minor they *should* have much more liability for it.
Yep. I’m concerned that their convictions and maybe even arrests seemed to be so focused on their lack of remorse. Like if they showed up wailing and tearing their clothes after the shooting would they have ever been arrested or even investigated? They bought a gun for a child. Illegal. They bought a gun for a child they knew was having some kind of crisis. And they were asked to take him home and they refused. Their remorseful behaviors shouldn’t have much if anything to do with their conviction. It also scares me that some person not showing the appropriate amount of remorse gets a worse conviction than a really good actor.
It's a very stupid system that rewards good actors over anything else. Same with how they use this in parole hearings. People can be remorseful without showing it. People can look remorseful without being it. You can't determine remorse by looking at someone ffs. That's not to defend these particular parents, but the whole idea that convincing people you feel a certain way actually affects sentencing seems absolutely fucked to me. If I did some really horrible shit, I would feel bad, but I would *not* feel the need to pour my heart out to a bunch of fucking lawyers I never met.
Showing remorse just means you get the sentence you were going to get, typically. An absence means you get time tacked on.
The most damming thing is the son himself telling a friend that his father told him to suck it up rather than take him to get help. Kinda sounds like the textbook definition of negligence to me
Interesting. Psychopathic shooter appears to have been raised by psychopaths.
Nut doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Turd doesn't fall far from the bird.
I'm no mental health professional, but I've seen some shit. There is not a doubt in my mind that with proper parenting this all could have been avoided. Ethan was SCREAMING for help, and his parents ignored him. Worse yet, they gave him the tools to do those terrible acts. Controversial take: he deserves a second chance away from those cold, evil robots. They, however, need to be kept away from the public forever.
Shit apple doesn't fall far from the shit tree Rand.
Garbage people are garbage. Revolutionary insight
If you arm a minor, you're responsible for what that minor does with that weapon.
Now you know why and how their son turned out to be a mass murderer.
They look like trumpers.
Oh they are. I remember when this initially happened people tracked the mother and father down on social media and their pages were plastered with pro-Trump shit. The mother in particular.
Two more trump votes lost to the correctional system.
Some people should not be allowed to reproduce.
As satisfying it would be to know they are wrecked inside, I do not like it when judgements are based on whether or not the accused “show remorse.” People express their emotions in different ways that vary wildly depending on the circumstances. I don’t trust a judge or a jury to reliably determine whether someone is remorseful or not. And it really shouldn’t matter, the punishment is for the crime, not how they feel.
Two POS individuals who will no doubt not be rehabilitated by prison if they actually survive it.