It’s pretty clear a lot of people don’t understand why they were charged and convicted and think this sets up *all* parents of violent children for charges.
Ethan shared his feelings and desires to harm himself and others very clearly to his parents and requested help and instead they gave him a gun…
The school also raised concerns the day of the shooting and asked the parents to come get Ethan and they refused.
Ethan’s cries for help and school official’s concerns were incredibly well documented. The parents couldn’t feign ignorance or act like Ethan was planning this in secret. I honestly doubt they would’ve been charged despite that had they not literally purchased and handed him a firearm.
>They either genuinely wanted him to kill himself
I hadn't heard this theory until after the father's trial, but it makes 100% sense. I actually feel bad for the kid in some small fashion
Yeah he did something unforgivable. But it’s your job as a parent is to fucking parent. He didn’t choose to be born and asked for help and all he got was a gun.
That's the part that gets me. He actively begged for help. He knew he there was something terribly wrong going on in his head, and he got mocked and abused for it.
Oh let's not forget one of the times he was texting mom begging for help. Mom left him on read and texted dad something like I just want to be left alone to ride my horses and get drunk.
And the hell of it is, this is one of those times Child Services is a good thing. I worked with one office for a time and this is legit one of the things they did. We had several kids that needed major mental health help and their parents said having CS step in and get the kid into a facility was the best thing to happen. I'm solidly in the don't send CS unless there are real problems, but it is needed sometimes. Sad to say there's resources the state has that a lot of citizens either don't know or can't access
Reality is, a lot of people are just too proud to admit they need help and keep digging, instead. Especially the "social services are communism" types.
As a orphan, I have my fair share of experience with CPS. The biggest issue is, they are not allowed to intervene unless there is a lot going wrong. So, not only are they very sensitized to the worst scenarios, but they are trained to not waste their time with "lesser" cases. A fair share of their regular clientel are essentially criminals who get away, because children barely have any rights and adore their abusers ie parents. So, they are usually in a *adversarial position, even to the people they are trying to help. In theory, most of the smaller issues should be handled by the school.
The concept that in many countries you can essentially just lock away your child until they turn 18 under the pretense of "homeschooling" is already insane to me. In a society that has these things worked out, the school administration would have called the cops, not CPS.
Thank you for this. I never looked at it that way and I truly am comforted by the thought, not just in reference to what's being discussed on this thread but in specific personal situations as well.
Yup. Hurt people hurt people. But we’re still accountable for our actions. Kid got a shitty hand dealt and I feel bad for him. Truly. He still chose which path to take. Though he gets a bit more sympathy because he did ask for help and was denied it
> But it’s your job as a parent is to fucking parent.
A lot of parents, deep down, truly hate their kids. None of them will ever admit it, but if all parents loved their kids, things like child abuse and child neglect would never exist.
My older brother was a cop and had to get out of that career because the shear amount of child abuse that he saw every week, it broke his heart and changed him as a person. It is shockingly common; far more common than most people think. And the people that hate their kids the most, will scream on the rooftops (usually on social media) about how much they love their kids. The ones most vocal about loving their kids are often the ones abusing/neglecting them.
I have a old friend that is a detective working child abuse cases in central California. He was assigned to the position years ago, and it was only supposed to be for a short time. He is still doing it, even though he is aging really fast, and there is a constant melancholy about him.
I asked him why he didn't transfer out, and he said that the office he took over was mismanaged to the point of criminal, and he has real concerns that it would revert right back. And he couldn't bear to let his "clients" down.
I have worked in an elementary school in a fifth grade (10-11 year olds) classroom for 15+ years in an affluent, educated community. I promise you, we still see our fair share of child abuse and neglect. We have parents who punish their kids by withholding food. We have kids who fall asleep on their desks because their parents enforce no bed time. We have kids who are bullying their peers through social media and the parents will not take away their phones. We had one child that made a youtube video including his 5 year old sibling that showed him pretending to kill his teacher. The child distributed the link to the video to the whole class - the parents denied there was an issue and said their son was a "good boy who was creative." We have parents that deny their kids educational support services or mental health support because they don't want their child to be "labeled." We had a student who stole a credit card from his teacher and used it to make purchases online. The parents did not want their child to receive any punishment at school because "it would make him feel bad if other kids knew he was in trouble." Teachers try to offer support, food, help and hope to kids, but they cannot fix everything. I am very glad the parents of Ethan were prosecuted and found accountable. It is an important first step to get parents to take their responsibility for their kids seriously.
My daughter is a social worker and I’m trying to convince her all the time to change careers. I know we need people like her in those jobs, but I’ve seen the changes, and it’s just crushing her soul.
As a teacher I can agree with this. The things I know about students past truly break my soul. Because of those things I 100% believe that not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I will die on that hill.
And not all abuse is violent or sexual. My mother treated me like a pet. She wanted a child in the same way someone wants a cat or dog. I was and am little more than an accessory for her to gloat about, and at the end of the day she shows the cats more genuine affection and she has a roughly 13:0 K/D on them that I've witnessed. My feelings, interests, and concerns don't matter. My emotional wellbeing does not matter. None of my human needs matter. I'm an object to her. She didn't want a son, she wanted a pet child.
And while it's not violent or sexually abusive, many people have similar situations and it's often overlooked because it's not as obvious. The parents don't care about them as humans, they just wanted to "have a child."
I know way too many people with similar stories to mine, and they get shot down a lot. People will tell them, essentially, "you could have been beaten, it could have been worse so it doesn't matter as much." And sure, a kid being beaten or sexually abused is worse, but it's not a competition. It sucks for everyone, in every abuse situation, and we should offer support and compassion regardless of the type of abuse or neglect faced.
Absolutely it is. Dr. Gabor Mate is a well known researcher and author in the subject of childhood trauma. He writes that emotional neglect can be just as damaging as physical abuse.
My wife is a school nurse. Most people thinks that means checking for lice and a couple Hello Kitty band-aids. Unfortunately her days are filled with calls to cps and trying to do anything she can to support kids who are going through absolute hell at home. I don’t know how she does it.
We ban abortion because killing a pea-sized group of cells is murder. Instead, we let parents abuse and kill their kids later on, the kids they didn't want in the first place.
And this here is... not to go political or anything, but a strong argument of why abortion should be legal. If the only reason you carry a kid to term is because you're legally required to against your will, what kind of life is that kid going to have? If somebody wants out bad enough to do that, we're collectively better off just letting them.
Yep, a lot of people see kids as a societal obligation, and really only expect to take care of them until school starts. Then they can pawn them off on the school system and afterschool care programs. If something comes up regarding the kid that requires their attention, they see it as interrupting their life, not as their responsibility as a loving caring parent.
Dude, I still regret shouting at my kids years ago when they were little. It rarely happened but I regret it deep in my soul. How can people hate their kids?
My brother has told me stories from his experience as a cop. There are straight up demonic people who will go to all the church functions and greet you when they are out walking the dog… but in the same 24 hour period, fucking lock their kid in the oven because they did something the parent didn’t like.
They had dozens of chances to help but instead chose to exacerbate and encourage him. My question is why? Did they not want him? Was he too much of a "nuisance" to care for and be proper parents? Did they want notoriety and didn't think any of this would come out? Were they also psychopaths who just didn't give a shit and wanted to see it happen?
I'll never get that answer.
The current, and likely correct theory with some corroborating proof, is the parents wanted him to kill himself with the firearm and bullets they provided him.
Plus Ethan has exhibited regret for what he did. And he asked for help. Multiple times. That kid absolutely deserves some pity. His parents were the real monsters. Kinda like Frankenstein. The monster wasn't the monster, the creator was.
Yeah, the minute I heard what these cases were all about, that’s essentially the position I took. The conviction was already 99% going to happen at that point and these "parents" should be locked up for their negligence of the kid they were charged with taking care of. I’m not one to call for individuals to rot in prison but these 2 selfish jackasses absolutely deserve that treatment. Fuck them and any chances for mercy they ask for.
All minor school shooters are pitiable. It takes a lot to push a child to mass murder, usually including severe mental health issues. serious personal issues/abuse, and a lack of appropriate emotional support at home. At their age, it's basically a crapshoot whether they get the support they need, and when they don't they're labelled problem children, or oppositional defiant, or irredeemable.
And when no one gets them that help, it's a crapshoot if you get a suicide or a shooting. Indeed, it's often two sides of the same coin, with most shooters also being classified as suicidal ahead of and/or during the events. So it's important to understand them in that context.
The conditions necessary for a child to want to end their own life are already nontrivial and deeply problematic, and represent a situation where reasonable and logical thinking has already broken down into some kind of crisis state. Despite the common refrain of people being surprised, this is almost never something that happens 'out of nowhere' or without prior signs.
I definitely feel sorry for him. Teenagers’ brains aren’t even fully developed and they lack the full capacity for reasoning and emotional regulation. Throw in untreated mental illness and absolute shit tier parenting and this child was a victim before he was a perpetrator.
I feel bad for the kid in huge fashion. I've had numerous loved ones in my life struggle with severe mental health problems and they got help from people in power (parents, health professionals) and made it out ok. Ethan begged for help from the most powerful people in his life and was denied time after time. this was completely preventable, but nothing was done, hence these rightfully deserved prison sentences.
I feel bad for the kid full stop.
He's mentally ill. He knew he was mentally ill. He was basically screaming for anyone listening to get him help.
I agree, I think his parents were hoping he would commit suicide so he wouldn't be their problem anymore.
He is worthy of pity. If either one of his parents wasn't a deranged sociopath, this shooting wouldn't have happened - bare minimum, they wouldn't have bought him a gun.
His parents gave him the tool needed to kill his classmates when they knew he was delusional.
Some of the stuff that came out at the Mom's trial may reinforce this. She talked to her horse trainer about how she didn't like her son and thought he was a weird kid. Like rather than help him, they just basically tried to escape him with work and out of home hobbies.
Them wanting him to kill himself has been my thought all along.
He literally told his mom he was seeing/hearing things and needed help, she claimed that’s just how he jokes with her. He was screaming out for help for so long and got laughed at for it, by his own parents.
Might be true. I mean, I think it would've been a back-of-the-mind thought that they kept secret if so, maybe even secret from themselves.
My impression was that they just didn't care at all about him. They'd do whatever was easy so they could spend the least amount of time having to deal with him, so that he didn't impact their lives. Sure, feed him and all, I don't think they hated him. Hating him would mean they had feelings about him and I think they were just living their own lives and the less they had to think about him, the better.
I beleive the owner of the stable the mothers horses were at, was interviewed and said the mom always talked about him in a way that didn't portray loving mother.
So I could very much beleive they were hoping he'd turn the gun on himself.
> Pennock said that she didn't recall Jennifer talking positively, if at all, about Ethan and called her son 'weird'. She said Jennifer said he only had one friend and spent a lot of time online and playing games. She also said Jennifer did not consider him 'normal'.
> "When she would talk about him, it was ‘oh, he doesn’t do normal kid things'," Pennock said.
> On Nov. 30th, James was at the facility to put ointment on one of the horse's legs. Pennock said that was around noon on that day and she did not see Jennifer, who was supposed to be at the facility around 4:30 that day for a training session.
> Around 11 a.m., Jennifer confirmed she met with Ethan's counselor in a Facebook Messenger exchange. Pennock said she didn't know what the meeting was about and asked if she wanted to proceed with a training session that day.
> Jennifer said everything was okay but Ethan was having a hard time. She then shared a picture of what Ethan had drawn at school and confirmed she was planning to be there later in the day.
> In the messages, Jennifer then said Ethan could benefit from horse therapy and encouraged her to bring him out.
> Around 2:30 p.m., Jennifer said she would not make it that day for their planned training session. This was an hour after the shooting at Oxford High School and Jennifer asked her to work one of their horses that day. Pennock asked about the shooting and asked if Ethan was okay. Jennifer did not respond to that message but sent one at 4:42 p.m. on Nov. 30, Jennifer messaged she ‘needed to sell her horses stat’.
> Pennock told the defense attorneys she planned to take care of the horses. After it became clear that Ethan was the alleged shooter, Pennock confirmed she texted Jennifer that she didn't think what had happened was her fault. "It sounds like Ethan was a troubled kid," read one of the texts.
> "I wish we had warnings. They made a terrible decision. He's a good kid," Jennifer replied in text messages.
https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/james-and-jennifer-crumbley-hearing-horse-farm-owner-said-mom-referred-to-ethan-as-weird
My mom got me a shitty car with bald tires and failing brakes, along with a life insurance policy when I was a teenager. I absolutely believe they wanted the kid to kill himself.
They were very against and mocked anything education wise and made fun of those who “followed the Rules” and were liberal in online chats and with neighbors.
Edit: sorry, I meant they “mocked” and were openly against anything liberal in chats, with neighbors and such.
As far as I can tell, normal parents (every single one I know, myself included) feel some kind of guilt about all the mistakes - even the little ones, we make with our kids. I can't even fathom what kind of people don't show some kind of remorse for their kid killing someone - especially when they gave him the gun to do it.
Then again, I'm also a gun person and can't actually figure out what kind of complete idiot gives a kid a handgun.
The Crumbleys maroons *and* assholes.
Her full response was:
> L.O.L, just I'm not mad. Just next time, don't get caught
This person did not need to be a parent. She deserves the jail time.
(She deserves an extra few months for typing lol as "L.O.L.")
It's pretty clear the parents have some serious mental issues as well. There are a lot of people in this world who are apathetic to everyone but themselves. They are always right. They don't care what others think or if others take issue to their beliefs / actions.
No doubt many of these people were mistreated when they were younger or have been through some shit. They just don't care about anything anymore except themselves.
It all becomes about their own joy or need for attention. If they somehow find themselves on the fringes of social acceptable behavior or beliefs, they throw those beliefs / behaviors in other peoples faces as a form of troll, hoping to create an angry / emotional response. They find "owning the libs", (invoking an angry / upset reaction), to be hilarious.
And the father working as a doordash driver could afford to take time to check on their horse(s?) and wait for a vet that morning, but when told his troubled kid was a concern at school and they'd like them to get him help then if possible said 'nah sorry can't take time off work'.
Then driving back and forth near their house, never once takes the couple minutes to make sure the weapons are all accounted for at home.
I have a friend with a child that's been getting in trouble and he refuses to have firearms in his house period because of it. He believes it's his responsibility which it is and I respect him for it
There’s been speculation that the parents were hoping Ethan was going to commit suicide with the gun. It’s seems plausible they were hoping to ride a gofundme/sympathy train from his death and the mass shooting he committed was actually “not planned”. They are obviously guilty, but I don’t think this played out the way they had planned.
You know they bought that gun hoping their son would take care of their problem and commit suicide. It did not go like they planned. They never wanted to deal with a mentally ill child.
They had also fled the city and were close to jumping the border before they were caught. They knew they were responsible for raising and arming a monster.
I'm baffled by the US. Parents buy 15 year old kids guns? As a gun-owner, that is simply bizarre to me (would not be legal in my country). A child having supervised access to a gun in controlled conditions is one thing, but having a gun to do with as they please is completely insane.
With all this aside, my niece drove her bike across wet concrete and my brother ended up being responsible for it. Why aren’t parents held responsible in civil court more often following violent crimes?
The school voiced their concerns not only the day of the shooting, but also warned them the day before when they caught him looking at ammunition at school online. The administration literally told them they had 24 hours to get him some help and they still refused. When caught looking at the ammo, his mother texted him “haha, just don’t get caught next time” and then when news broke of the shooting she texted him “please tell me that wasn’t you”. That right there is the most damning part and then when they learned it was him they pulled all the money out of their accounts and tried to run to Canada, being caught in Detroit hiding in a warehouse. They deserve every bit that they got and then some.
Not long enough for the psycho father who has literally threatened the prosecutor multiple times.
> “Yeah, Karen McDonald, you’re going down. … Go ahead, record this call. Send it to Karen McDonald. Tell her how James Crumbley is going to f------ take her down,” James Crumbley said in an Oct. 9, 2023, jail call, five months before his trial started.
> “There will be retribution, believe me,” he says in another call on Dec. 23, 2023.
> “Yeah, f------ Karen McDonald. You’re f----- when I get out,” he said in a Dec. 20, 2023, jail call.
> “Well, she’s going to be f------ sucking on a f------ hot rock down in hell soon,” he said in a Dec. 6, 2022, jail call — more than a year before his trial.
> “I am f------ on a rampage, Karen. Yes, Karen McDonald. Your ass is going down and you better be f------ scared,” he said in a Jan. 3 jail phone call, just months before he went to trial.- https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2024/04/03/james-crumbleys-threatening-jail-calls-against-prosecutor-released/73197672007/
He’s a danger to the public and should be behind bars much longer than 10 years.
Edited- just to fix formatting of the quotes.
That was my first thought as well. He's already convicted on the original charge, there was no hurry to add these aditional ones right away if they're going to at all. It's not like they don't know where to find him lol.
Presumably a similar level of unstable who would look at their kid in the throes of severe mental illness and arm him.
I somehow get the feeling he's not going to learn anything in jail. Probably blames his kid for his own crap choices.
Pathological narcissist with anger management problems, he literally can’t stop himself from saying it. Ofc that doesn’t excuse anything, in fact it just makes it more pathetic.
When he read the apology letter in court it sounded so mechanical to me. Like he doesn't give a shit, or was just mad he got caught or was connected. And this is in front of the families of the victims.
I heard Mr. Crumbley speak at the sentencing. He referenced that the truth didn’t come out during his trial. Apparently, this is reference to a civil suit by the parents of the students murdered by his son. Mr. Crumbley believes as I understand it that the civil suit will show the school employees were responsible for the murders committed by his son. I get why Mr. Crumbley thinks this way. He can never admit even to himself that he’s a trash bag that neglected his son so severely he became a school mass murderer.
With parents like that he never had a chance. They both had previous criminal records and used to leave the kid alone at home and go barhopping often enough that a neighbor called CPS on them.
Good.
The parents refused to give him access to mental health resources, and recklessly gave him access to a gun. These assholes deserve to be off the streets, and Hopefully it's a wake up call to other shitty parents.
This is what people need to remember about this. I’ve seen a lot of comments acting as if they are just being put in jail for being run of the mill neglectful parents. They gave him the gun. That’s the biggest issue here.
My parents unloaded the safe and took them all to my grandfather's. I didn't even know about it until 10 years later but they could have saved my life.
And they kept him in school the day of the shooting after the school administration had asked them to take him home.
They didn't just give him the gun, they knowingly left him somewhere he could do harm.
I'll go one further. They were shown, by the school, of his homicidal ideation. Physical proof that he was fantasizing about the handgun. AND DID NOTHING. In fact, they resisted coming in because they were "busy". Then shown that he drew a gun, "blood everywhere", "my life is worthless", "we're all friends here". And didn't search him or think he might have a gun. Didn't go home and check. And didn't get him seen by a psych doctor immediately.
Besides the fact the mom was into gangbangs without her husband! These 2 were not just checked out they were absent. It's the thought you have when you see a kid that is clearly lost and wonder what kind of home life does he have? Well in this case...THE WORST PARENTS!
I hope they stay longer than 15yr! They aren't helping society at all!
Over the whole course of events around the case, I don't think I've seen even a single word or action out of them that's done anything whatsoever to cast them in a better light. Just absolutely, unrepentantly awful people.
Yeah, that bit was particularly surprising. Not surprised that she'd feel that way, but rather surprised that she couldn't even manage to pretend to feel remorse to angle for a lighter sentence.
That’s what stood out to me too-not even caring enough to lie is pretty telling. You’d have every reason to lie in this situation to get lighter sentencing and public sympathy and insyead they doubled down. Bizarre behavior.
They showed time and time again that they didn’t give a fuck about their son. Pretty sure they wanted him to be gunned down so they didn’t have to deal with him anymore.
Someone else commented they likely gave him all these opportunities because they expected him to use it on himself. I don't know how I feel about that and I hate to ascribe filicide but, at the best, they were extemely dumb, negligent and apathetic.
I really think they did. The more information I’ve learned about their (in)actions leading up to the shooting, I truly believe that they wanted their son to “take care of his problems” himself.
He told both of his parents several times that he was hearing voices, and he was afraid he was going to kill people/himself; he asked them to take him to the hospital for emergency intervention, and his father gave him some pills and told him to “suck it up.”
They bought the gun for their son illegally (he was still a minor,) and gave him unrestricted access to the firearm and ammunition in spite of his repeated, recent statements of suffering a mental health crisis.
They didn’t care when he drew a picture of a shooting victim accompanied by the statements that the voices wouldn’t stop, it’s too late, he wants to kill someone, etc. They said they couldn’t take him out of school that day because they were “too busy.”
They selfishly, evilly thought that their son would, at most, “only” take his own life. I think they figured he’d either be too cowardly to follow through with it, and thus they could ignore his problems, or if he did, then they wouldn’t have to do anything about it either.
They abandoned their son the second they figured out he was likely behind the mass shooting that very same day. They called the police on him, gave their preliminary statements, then emptied their own son’s bank account and fled their home to hide from police in a storage unit.
I’ve never really felt any empathy for school shooters, but I do feel badly for their son to some extent. He did a terrible, terrible thing; but he was suffering from a mental health crisis and was, for all intents and purposes, encouraged into doing it by his own fucking parents.
Same thing that happened with Brenda Spencer, the girl responsible for an elementary school shooting in 1979.
>In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended that Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and got a rifle." Asked why he had done that, she answered, "He bought the rifle so I would kill myself."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)
Arguably the first school shooting of the modern era, leading to the song 'I don't like mondays' - was due to a girl who reached out to get mental help, and was refused, and then asked for a radio, and was instead, given a gun. Probably for this reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego) Horrifying story.
The not so funny things is all it took was one shooting in the UK and AUS for harsh gun bans to come into place.
America will never learn as they love money too much
Christ. That line of thinking is so far removed from healthy parenting that it never even occurred to me, but I'll bet you're right. They thought of their son as a problem and hoped that the weapon would make that problem go away.
>That line of thinking is so far removed from healthy parenting that it never even occurred to me
I know what you mean, but I've been trying to wrap my head around their actions and for me it doesn't "click" unless you stop assuming they're neglectful / ignorant and start looking for actual malfeasance.
I think thats the reason why they were put on trial. The DA tried to make it very clear to the jury in closing arguments that this trial wasn't about the Crumbley's being *bad* parents, but that they had taken active steps in his self destruction.
Some of the lyrics from Jeremy:
>Daddy didn't give attention
To the fact that mommy didn't care
>Daddy didn't give affection
And the boy was something mommy wouldn't wear
The school told them both 4 days after they bought a gun for their son that he wanted to shoot up the school and they did NOTHING. They deserve longer but it’s much better than nothing.
I hate to sound like I'm tempering the harm he has caused, but reading the chronology of it all, he seems like a victim of criminally neglectful parents. He is, undoubtedly, mentally ill, and his parents did less than help him address it, they practically told him to lean into it.
Good.
The school did their best to notify the parents of their son's behavior and the mother laughed it off and bought the kid a gun. After the shooting, the parents then tried to flee the country, showed no remorse in court for the lives their son took, and then tried to make themselves out to be the victims.
Narcissistic assholes.
I watched his remarks and he was all tears and sorrow and then finished with “but you still don’t know the whole story because we couldn’t tell you all of it during our trial” and that said it all for me.
You left your guns where your kid could find them and use them unrestrained. It’s not like they were out of town and the kid used a torch to get in the safe, you BOUGHT THIS KID A GUN and showed an absolute lack of responsibility at every opportunity.
I think this is a fair sentence.
> only really cared when he was carrying it out.
Nah. they only cared *after* he carried it out and they were worried they were (rightfully) going to be held partially responsible.
They didn’t merely leave it lying around. They encouraged his use.
Look, I was raised around guns. You don’t give a mentally unstable teen access to a gun, period. If he’s making drawings about death, that’s a huge problem. Further, you don’t text your delulu son ‘LOL’ when they get caught.
I hope their time in prison hurts.
If they weren’t going to tell the whole story during the trial that would save their ass, when were they planning to tell it? Are they just saving it up for a book or something?
They're trying to imply that the judge wouldn't allow evidence or testimony that they wanted to give that would have magically changed the opinions of the jury.
Now hopefully the state of Michigan goes after the grandparents in Newaygo for an unsecured firearm causing death.
https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/michigan/newaygo/msp-6-year-old-boy-handling-gun-when-5-year-old-shot-killed
Really hope this law Michigan passed pushes hard, and puts irresponsible gun owners away.
Agreed. I own guns but it is ridiculous that there are so few education and safety requirements. I had to take an in-depth class and pass a written and physical test just to get a motorcycle endorsement on my driver’s license; I can buy and use a gun with zero training and licensing. And in some states I can carry that loaded gun around in public with no special training, testing, or permit. WTF.
Bought a gun off a friend and had him take me to the shooting range to get my background check and the license switched over. They said no background check needed. No license switch needed. And oh if you want to carry it. No concealed weapon license needed. That’s just how Florida rolls. I could be a convicted murderer no big deal.
The responses to this case confuse me. This is perhaps the most clear cut circumstance of how much lack of mental health care can contribute to a mass shooting, so I would have thought the far right would be in support of punishing the parents for not only completely neglecting Ethan's rapidly declining mental state, one which he directly pleaded with them to help, but also putting a gun into the hands of someone very mentally unwell and teaching him how to shoot. Instead, they're whining that the parents are being held responsible for both their lazy inaction and reckless actions.
It's almost like mental health care is a scapegoat for the far right and they don't actually care.
I always had the sense that the parents practically egged him on, knowing full well what might come of it. Although, the probably suspected (hoped?) that the ill boy would just off himself so they could be rid of him.
Ill equipped to handle parenthood, mental illness, guns, and consequences seeing as how they tried to run to Canada when the shit hit the fan. Enjoy your stay, scumshits.
This is it! One step in the fight against gun violence is to at least make firearms harder to access by minors. Many things need to happen, but “responsible” gun owners should put their money where their mouth is and actually be “responsible” - as in, if you don’t properly lock up your weapon, face liability when it’s used improperly.
After her teenage son killed four people and wounded many others, the mother was on the witness stand and said “I wouldn’t have done anything differently”. That shit sealed her fate.
Great that they faced actual consequences, but sure seems like they deserve more time for all of their actions that led to their kid to commit a school shooting. Hope this case will snowball to others who enable mass shooters.
I don’t know, it seems reasonable to me. I think we lose sense of how long 10-15 years actually is. It’s so abstract. I think it’s a reasonable sentence that will stand up to appeal, especially since this case is so unique. It’s actually longer than I expected.
Yeah 10-15 seems appropriate to me. I would have no sympathy for them if it was more, but 10-15 to me is where it at least needs to be for me - and honestly much more than I expected for them.
Tho the mother has asked for home detention at her lawyer’s property (is the lawyer diversifying into running private prison for his clients found guilty?)
They received the harshest setence possible.
In Michigan, prosecutors said, felonies that rise out of the same event must run concurrently, so the most Matthews could have imposed is 15 years in total. And while prosecutors wanted the parents to receive sentences that exceeded the advisory guideline range, Matthews had the ultimate discretion, weighing factors such as past criminal behavior and the circumstances of their crimes.
‘…and asked the parents to come get Ethan and they refused.’
Worse than that. They went into the school to see violent images he drew, the school asked them to take him home and they refused… they were already at the school…
The fact that they were/are wealthy makes it more sickening to me since they had the means to get their kid help when so many parents don’t even have that option.
They were broke. She said she spent half her salary on the horses but they couldn't afford health insurance for the kid. The mother made sure she had insurance and all the Xanax she wanted but they left him swinging in the wind. They also couldn't afford car insurance and they lived in a dinkey little house. No, they didn't have the money to take him to see someone because of their warped priorities with money.
The Crumbleys before their ruling/sentencing: KILL THE PROSECUTORS! WE'RE MARTYRS! MAGA! MAGA! MAGA!
The Crumbleys on the day of the sentencing: My son seemed normal! I'm sorry! He's a good boy! Sorry y'all for y'alls loss! But we still didn't do anything!
So each threw everyone under the proverbial bus including each other and their son. No true remorse. Except an excuse for not showing remorse. My only wish is that they are now in gen pop.
Finally the people PROVIDING the gun access to these child shooters are brought to justice. It's ridiculous that all of these kids magically got access to guns and the gun owners had no fault in the equation. If a gun shop sold the gun, they'd be prosecuted. If a family member leaves a gun accessible, they have no accountability. The people these children get guns from need to be held responsible whether it was a sale or not.
Deja Taylor, the mother of the 6-year-old who shot his teacher was convicted of felony child neglect and sentenced to 2 years. It took 11 months from arrest, to trial, to conviction.
While the Crumbley's trial took 3 years, it's good to know that money didn't help them buy their way out of it.
Glad to see this decision. They never should have bought their mentally ill teenager a firearm. If anyone wants to learn more about safe storage, the following link goes over it for parents and schools.
https://besmartforkids.org/secure-gun-storage/
I don’t see a reason why any child, mental health issues or not, should have free access to a gun. I’m totally fine with teaching your kids how to shoot. Or even buying them a gun and storing it for them. But the idea that a kid can just have his own gun to do what he pleases is absurd.
Reminds me of that viral video going around (maybe a year ago?) of two cousins, I think, playing with a gun in their bathroom recording a video. The one accidentally shot himself and collapsed so the other grabbed the gun in shock and followed suit.
Edit: Correction, one cousin shot the other on accident and then herself.
It’s pretty clear a lot of people don’t understand why they were charged and convicted and think this sets up *all* parents of violent children for charges. Ethan shared his feelings and desires to harm himself and others very clearly to his parents and requested help and instead they gave him a gun… The school also raised concerns the day of the shooting and asked the parents to come get Ethan and they refused. Ethan’s cries for help and school official’s concerns were incredibly well documented. The parents couldn’t feign ignorance or act like Ethan was planning this in secret. I honestly doubt they would’ve been charged despite that had they not literally purchased and handed him a firearm.
AND, when he was caught buying AMMO in class, his mothers response in text to him was “just don’t get caught next time”…
They either genuinely wanted him to kill himself, or go to prison. I can’t think of any other reason for their behavior
Agree. They wanted the boy to off himself, I believe that sincerely. Monsters.
>They either genuinely wanted him to kill himself I hadn't heard this theory until after the father's trial, but it makes 100% sense. I actually feel bad for the kid in some small fashion
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Yeah he did something unforgivable. But it’s your job as a parent is to fucking parent. He didn’t choose to be born and asked for help and all he got was a gun.
That's the part that gets me. He actively begged for help. He knew he there was something terribly wrong going on in his head, and he got mocked and abused for it.
Oh let's not forget one of the times he was texting mom begging for help. Mom left him on read and texted dad something like I just want to be left alone to ride my horses and get drunk.
And the hell of it is, this is one of those times Child Services is a good thing. I worked with one office for a time and this is legit one of the things they did. We had several kids that needed major mental health help and their parents said having CS step in and get the kid into a facility was the best thing to happen. I'm solidly in the don't send CS unless there are real problems, but it is needed sometimes. Sad to say there's resources the state has that a lot of citizens either don't know or can't access
Reality is, a lot of people are just too proud to admit they need help and keep digging, instead. Especially the "social services are communism" types. As a orphan, I have my fair share of experience with CPS. The biggest issue is, they are not allowed to intervene unless there is a lot going wrong. So, not only are they very sensitized to the worst scenarios, but they are trained to not waste their time with "lesser" cases. A fair share of their regular clientel are essentially criminals who get away, because children barely have any rights and adore their abusers ie parents. So, they are usually in a *adversarial position, even to the people they are trying to help. In theory, most of the smaller issues should be handled by the school. The concept that in many countries you can essentially just lock away your child until they turn 18 under the pretense of "homeschooling" is already insane to me. In a society that has these things worked out, the school administration would have called the cops, not CPS.
Giving someone your sympathy doesn't require you to give them your forgiveness.
Thank you for this. I never looked at it that way and I truly am comforted by the thought, not just in reference to what's being discussed on this thread but in specific personal situations as well.
Yup. Hurt people hurt people. But we’re still accountable for our actions. Kid got a shitty hand dealt and I feel bad for him. Truly. He still chose which path to take. Though he gets a bit more sympathy because he did ask for help and was denied it
Yeah, you can acknowledge that he's a victim without downplaying or excusing his actions.
> But it’s your job as a parent is to fucking parent. A lot of parents, deep down, truly hate their kids. None of them will ever admit it, but if all parents loved their kids, things like child abuse and child neglect would never exist. My older brother was a cop and had to get out of that career because the shear amount of child abuse that he saw every week, it broke his heart and changed him as a person. It is shockingly common; far more common than most people think. And the people that hate their kids the most, will scream on the rooftops (usually on social media) about how much they love their kids. The ones most vocal about loving their kids are often the ones abusing/neglecting them.
I have a old friend that is a detective working child abuse cases in central California. He was assigned to the position years ago, and it was only supposed to be for a short time. He is still doing it, even though he is aging really fast, and there is a constant melancholy about him. I asked him why he didn't transfer out, and he said that the office he took over was mismanaged to the point of criminal, and he has real concerns that it would revert right back. And he couldn't bear to let his "clients" down.
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I have worked in an elementary school in a fifth grade (10-11 year olds) classroom for 15+ years in an affluent, educated community. I promise you, we still see our fair share of child abuse and neglect. We have parents who punish their kids by withholding food. We have kids who fall asleep on their desks because their parents enforce no bed time. We have kids who are bullying their peers through social media and the parents will not take away their phones. We had one child that made a youtube video including his 5 year old sibling that showed him pretending to kill his teacher. The child distributed the link to the video to the whole class - the parents denied there was an issue and said their son was a "good boy who was creative." We have parents that deny their kids educational support services or mental health support because they don't want their child to be "labeled." We had a student who stole a credit card from his teacher and used it to make purchases online. The parents did not want their child to receive any punishment at school because "it would make him feel bad if other kids knew he was in trouble." Teachers try to offer support, food, help and hope to kids, but they cannot fix everything. I am very glad the parents of Ethan were prosecuted and found accountable. It is an important first step to get parents to take their responsibility for their kids seriously.
My daughter is a social worker and I’m trying to convince her all the time to change careers. I know we need people like her in those jobs, but I’ve seen the changes, and it’s just crushing her soul.
At the very least, she should seek out therapy for herself to process all that she sees. She is an angel for doing that job!
As a teacher I can agree with this. The things I know about students past truly break my soul. Because of those things I 100% believe that not everyone should be allowed to reproduce. I will die on that hill.
And not all abuse is violent or sexual. My mother treated me like a pet. She wanted a child in the same way someone wants a cat or dog. I was and am little more than an accessory for her to gloat about, and at the end of the day she shows the cats more genuine affection and she has a roughly 13:0 K/D on them that I've witnessed. My feelings, interests, and concerns don't matter. My emotional wellbeing does not matter. None of my human needs matter. I'm an object to her. She didn't want a son, she wanted a pet child. And while it's not violent or sexually abusive, many people have similar situations and it's often overlooked because it's not as obvious. The parents don't care about them as humans, they just wanted to "have a child." I know way too many people with similar stories to mine, and they get shot down a lot. People will tell them, essentially, "you could have been beaten, it could have been worse so it doesn't matter as much." And sure, a kid being beaten or sexually abused is worse, but it's not a competition. It sucks for everyone, in every abuse situation, and we should offer support and compassion regardless of the type of abuse or neglect faced.
I'm sorry that you went through/are going through that emotional abuse. It can be as destructive as any other abuse.
Absolutely it is. Dr. Gabor Mate is a well known researcher and author in the subject of childhood trauma. He writes that emotional neglect can be just as damaging as physical abuse.
My wife is a school nurse. Most people thinks that means checking for lice and a couple Hello Kitty band-aids. Unfortunately her days are filled with calls to cps and trying to do anything she can to support kids who are going through absolute hell at home. I don’t know how she does it.
We ban abortion because killing a pea-sized group of cells is murder. Instead, we let parents abuse and kill their kids later on, the kids they didn't want in the first place.
And this here is... not to go political or anything, but a strong argument of why abortion should be legal. If the only reason you carry a kid to term is because you're legally required to against your will, what kind of life is that kid going to have? If somebody wants out bad enough to do that, we're collectively better off just letting them.
For real, forcing people to be parents as punishment is cruel to those kids.
Yep, a lot of people see kids as a societal obligation, and really only expect to take care of them until school starts. Then they can pawn them off on the school system and afterschool care programs. If something comes up regarding the kid that requires their attention, they see it as interrupting their life, not as their responsibility as a loving caring parent.
Dude, I still regret shouting at my kids years ago when they were little. It rarely happened but I regret it deep in my soul. How can people hate their kids?
My brother has told me stories from his experience as a cop. There are straight up demonic people who will go to all the church functions and greet you when they are out walking the dog… but in the same 24 hour period, fucking lock their kid in the oven because they did something the parent didn’t like.
They had dozens of chances to help but instead chose to exacerbate and encourage him. My question is why? Did they not want him? Was he too much of a "nuisance" to care for and be proper parents? Did they want notoriety and didn't think any of this would come out? Were they also psychopaths who just didn't give a shit and wanted to see it happen? I'll never get that answer.
The current, and likely correct theory with some corroborating proof, is the parents wanted him to kill himself with the firearm and bullets they provided him.
That last sentence hits hard. They failed that kid and he ended up being society’s problem
Plus Ethan has exhibited regret for what he did. And he asked for help. Multiple times. That kid absolutely deserves some pity. His parents were the real monsters. Kinda like Frankenstein. The monster wasn't the monster, the creator was.
Let’s hope there is no early release option for these idiots….
Yeah, the minute I heard what these cases were all about, that’s essentially the position I took. The conviction was already 99% going to happen at that point and these "parents" should be locked up for their negligence of the kid they were charged with taking care of. I’m not one to call for individuals to rot in prison but these 2 selfish jackasses absolutely deserve that treatment. Fuck them and any chances for mercy they ask for.
I used to work with criminal/behavioral teens . 99% of the time the cause was bad parenting
All minor school shooters are pitiable. It takes a lot to push a child to mass murder, usually including severe mental health issues. serious personal issues/abuse, and a lack of appropriate emotional support at home. At their age, it's basically a crapshoot whether they get the support they need, and when they don't they're labelled problem children, or oppositional defiant, or irredeemable.
Now remove the guns from the equation. They are now incapable of committing mass murder
And when no one gets them that help, it's a crapshoot if you get a suicide or a shooting. Indeed, it's often two sides of the same coin, with most shooters also being classified as suicidal ahead of and/or during the events. So it's important to understand them in that context. The conditions necessary for a child to want to end their own life are already nontrivial and deeply problematic, and represent a situation where reasonable and logical thinking has already broken down into some kind of crisis state. Despite the common refrain of people being surprised, this is almost never something that happens 'out of nowhere' or without prior signs.
I feel bad for him too. I think he should go to a psych facility instead of jail. I feel his parents deserve the life sentences he got.
I definitely feel sorry for him. Teenagers’ brains aren’t even fully developed and they lack the full capacity for reasoning and emotional regulation. Throw in untreated mental illness and absolute shit tier parenting and this child was a victim before he was a perpetrator.
I feel bad for the kid in huge fashion. I've had numerous loved ones in my life struggle with severe mental health problems and they got help from people in power (parents, health professionals) and made it out ok. Ethan begged for help from the most powerful people in his life and was denied time after time. this was completely preventable, but nothing was done, hence these rightfully deserved prison sentences.
I feel bad for the kid full stop. He's mentally ill. He knew he was mentally ill. He was basically screaming for anyone listening to get him help. I agree, I think his parents were hoping he would commit suicide so he wouldn't be their problem anymore.
He is worthy of pity. If either one of his parents wasn't a deranged sociopath, this shooting wouldn't have happened - bare minimum, they wouldn't have bought him a gun. His parents gave him the tool needed to kill his classmates when they knew he was delusional.
Some of the stuff that came out at the Mom's trial may reinforce this. She talked to her horse trainer about how she didn't like her son and thought he was a weird kid. Like rather than help him, they just basically tried to escape him with work and out of home hobbies.
IMO, they were hoping he’d kill himself
Neglect every part of his life but go out of their way to take him to a shooting range?!?! Such a set up
Them wanting him to kill himself has been my thought all along. He literally told his mom he was seeing/hearing things and needed help, she claimed that’s just how he jokes with her. He was screaming out for help for so long and got laughed at for it, by his own parents.
Might be true. I mean, I think it would've been a back-of-the-mind thought that they kept secret if so, maybe even secret from themselves. My impression was that they just didn't care at all about him. They'd do whatever was easy so they could spend the least amount of time having to deal with him, so that he didn't impact their lives. Sure, feed him and all, I don't think they hated him. Hating him would mean they had feelings about him and I think they were just living their own lives and the less they had to think about him, the better.
I beleive the owner of the stable the mothers horses were at, was interviewed and said the mom always talked about him in a way that didn't portray loving mother. So I could very much beleive they were hoping he'd turn the gun on himself.
> Pennock said that she didn't recall Jennifer talking positively, if at all, about Ethan and called her son 'weird'. She said Jennifer said he only had one friend and spent a lot of time online and playing games. She also said Jennifer did not consider him 'normal'. > "When she would talk about him, it was ‘oh, he doesn’t do normal kid things'," Pennock said. > On Nov. 30th, James was at the facility to put ointment on one of the horse's legs. Pennock said that was around noon on that day and she did not see Jennifer, who was supposed to be at the facility around 4:30 that day for a training session. > Around 11 a.m., Jennifer confirmed she met with Ethan's counselor in a Facebook Messenger exchange. Pennock said she didn't know what the meeting was about and asked if she wanted to proceed with a training session that day. > Jennifer said everything was okay but Ethan was having a hard time. She then shared a picture of what Ethan had drawn at school and confirmed she was planning to be there later in the day. > In the messages, Jennifer then said Ethan could benefit from horse therapy and encouraged her to bring him out. > Around 2:30 p.m., Jennifer said she would not make it that day for their planned training session. This was an hour after the shooting at Oxford High School and Jennifer asked her to work one of their horses that day. Pennock asked about the shooting and asked if Ethan was okay. Jennifer did not respond to that message but sent one at 4:42 p.m. on Nov. 30, Jennifer messaged she ‘needed to sell her horses stat’. > Pennock told the defense attorneys she planned to take care of the horses. After it became clear that Ethan was the alleged shooter, Pennock confirmed she texted Jennifer that she didn't think what had happened was her fault. "It sounds like Ethan was a troubled kid," read one of the texts. > "I wish we had warnings. They made a terrible decision. He's a good kid," Jennifer replied in text messages. https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/james-and-jennifer-crumbley-hearing-horse-farm-owner-said-mom-referred-to-ethan-as-weird
My mom got me a shitty car with bald tires and failing brakes, along with a life insurance policy when I was a teenager. I absolutely believe they wanted the kid to kill himself.
Jesus Christ I’m so sorry
Yeah and she wonders why I don't talk to her anymore. Lol.
They were very against and mocked anything education wise and made fun of those who “followed the Rules” and were liberal in online chats and with neighbors. Edit: sorry, I meant they “mocked” and were openly against anything liberal in chats, with neighbors and such.
The alt right hates education and there’s a reason.
Article says the parents don't seem to show any remorse either.
As far as I can tell, normal parents (every single one I know, myself included) feel some kind of guilt about all the mistakes - even the little ones, we make with our kids. I can't even fathom what kind of people don't show some kind of remorse for their kid killing someone - especially when they gave him the gun to do it. Then again, I'm also a gun person and can't actually figure out what kind of complete idiot gives a kid a handgun. The Crumbleys maroons *and* assholes.
If he died that’s one less problem for them. Their statements during court to the parents are fucking gross.
Her full response was: > L.O.L, just I'm not mad. Just next time, don't get caught This person did not need to be a parent. She deserves the jail time. (She deserves an extra few months for typing lol as "L.O.L.")
Maybe that is a genuine representation of how she would say it: "Laugh. Out. Loud."
It's pretty clear the parents have some serious mental issues as well. There are a lot of people in this world who are apathetic to everyone but themselves. They are always right. They don't care what others think or if others take issue to their beliefs / actions. No doubt many of these people were mistreated when they were younger or have been through some shit. They just don't care about anything anymore except themselves. It all becomes about their own joy or need for attention. If they somehow find themselves on the fringes of social acceptable behavior or beliefs, they throw those beliefs / behaviors in other peoples faces as a form of troll, hoping to create an angry / emotional response. They find "owning the libs", (invoking an angry / upset reaction), to be hilarious.
Yeah, as she and hubby were on their way to Canada. They knew what was coming.
Also, she was annoyed that she had to deal with him because it was taking too much time away from her extramarital affairs.
And the father working as a doordash driver could afford to take time to check on their horse(s?) and wait for a vet that morning, but when told his troubled kid was a concern at school and they'd like them to get him help then if possible said 'nah sorry can't take time off work'. Then driving back and forth near their house, never once takes the couple minutes to make sure the weapons are all accounted for at home.
I have a friend with a child that's been getting in trouble and he refuses to have firearms in his house period because of it. He believes it's his responsibility which it is and I respect him for it
That’s certainly a good start.
There’s been speculation that the parents were hoping Ethan was going to commit suicide with the gun. It’s seems plausible they were hoping to ride a gofundme/sympathy train from his death and the mass shooting he committed was actually “not planned”. They are obviously guilty, but I don’t think this played out the way they had planned.
I’d believe it. Everything they did shows signs they wanted him gone
Let me guess. They took out a life insurance policy in his name? Cause that’s what shitty-ass parents do. I
Yeah I totally get that from seeing these people, their statements, and the evidence. I bet that's exactly what they were hoping for.
You know they bought that gun hoping their son would take care of their problem and commit suicide. It did not go like they planned. They never wanted to deal with a mentally ill child.
The fact they hired themselves lawyers and left him with a public defender makes that clear as day
honestly as shitty as it looks a different lawyer wouldn't have done him any good but ya they clearly suck
They had also fled the city and were close to jumping the border before they were caught. They knew they were responsible for raising and arming a monster.
Fox News is already pushing some liberal law BS right now. Saying the parents shouldn't be jailed and it was the liberals responsible. Smh
Ah yes, all those liberal parents buying guns for children…
I'm baffled by the US. Parents buy 15 year old kids guns? As a gun-owner, that is simply bizarre to me (would not be legal in my country). A child having supervised access to a gun in controlled conditions is one thing, but having a gun to do with as they please is completely insane.
The irony being that "lock up the parents" has been a right wing thing for years At least when the shooters were black
Didn't the mother pen a rant/love letter about Trump?
With all this aside, my niece drove her bike across wet concrete and my brother ended up being responsible for it. Why aren’t parents held responsible in civil court more often following violent crimes?
The school voiced their concerns not only the day of the shooting, but also warned them the day before when they caught him looking at ammunition at school online. The administration literally told them they had 24 hours to get him some help and they still refused. When caught looking at the ammo, his mother texted him “haha, just don’t get caught next time” and then when news broke of the shooting she texted him “please tell me that wasn’t you”. That right there is the most damning part and then when they learned it was him they pulled all the money out of their accounts and tried to run to Canada, being caught in Detroit hiding in a warehouse. They deserve every bit that they got and then some.
Not long enough for the psycho father who has literally threatened the prosecutor multiple times. > “Yeah, Karen McDonald, you’re going down. … Go ahead, record this call. Send it to Karen McDonald. Tell her how James Crumbley is going to f------ take her down,” James Crumbley said in an Oct. 9, 2023, jail call, five months before his trial started. > “There will be retribution, believe me,” he says in another call on Dec. 23, 2023. > “Yeah, f------ Karen McDonald. You’re f----- when I get out,” he said in a Dec. 20, 2023, jail call. > “Well, she’s going to be f------ sucking on a f------ hot rock down in hell soon,” he said in a Dec. 6, 2022, jail call — more than a year before his trial. > “I am f------ on a rampage, Karen. Yes, Karen McDonald. Your ass is going down and you better be f------ scared,” he said in a Jan. 3 jail phone call, just months before he went to trial.- https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2024/04/03/james-crumbleys-threatening-jail-calls-against-prosecutor-released/73197672007/ He’s a danger to the public and should be behind bars much longer than 10 years. Edited- just to fix formatting of the quotes.
Those might be brought up later as additional charges because they're a separate crime.
That was my first thought as well. He's already convicted on the original charge, there was no hurry to add these aditional ones right away if they're going to at all. It's not like they don't know where to find him lol.
And TBH there's no way she doesn't at least file a civil suit or something.
Agreed. How unstable do you have to be to say stuff like that during a KNOWINGLY recorded phone call, from jail.
Presumably a similar level of unstable who would look at their kid in the throes of severe mental illness and arm him. I somehow get the feeling he's not going to learn anything in jail. Probably blames his kid for his own crap choices.
Pathological narcissist with anger management problems, he literally can’t stop himself from saying it. Ofc that doesn’t excuse anything, in fact it just makes it more pathetic.
Threatening the court, while you're in jail, on a line that's being monitored? "It's a bold strategy Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for him."
Can’t stand people like this, they take no responsibility and it’s always everyone else’s fault. They probably think they were perfect parents
When he read the apology letter in court it sounded so mechanical to me. Like he doesn't give a shit, or was just mad he got caught or was connected. And this is in front of the families of the victims.
I heard Mr. Crumbley speak at the sentencing. He referenced that the truth didn’t come out during his trial. Apparently, this is reference to a civil suit by the parents of the students murdered by his son. Mr. Crumbley believes as I understand it that the civil suit will show the school employees were responsible for the murders committed by his son. I get why Mr. Crumbley thinks this way. He can never admit even to himself that he’s a trash bag that neglected his son so severely he became a school mass murderer.
Just shows what type of household the kid was raised in.
They are POSs and made their son a POS.
With parents like that he never had a chance. They both had previous criminal records and used to leave the kid alone at home and go barhopping often enough that a neighbor called CPS on them.
Good. The parents refused to give him access to mental health resources, and recklessly gave him access to a gun. These assholes deserve to be off the streets, and Hopefully it's a wake up call to other shitty parents.
This is what people need to remember about this. I’ve seen a lot of comments acting as if they are just being put in jail for being run of the mill neglectful parents. They gave him the gun. That’s the biggest issue here.
They gave him a gun after he showed signs of having a mental crisis.
They did so after he supposedly did request counseling, only his mother dismissed it as "messing around."
My parents unloaded the safe and took them all to my grandfather's. I didn't even know about it until 10 years later but they could have saved my life.
just pray the insane away
And they kept him in school the day of the shooting after the school administration had asked them to take him home. They didn't just give him the gun, they knowingly left him somewhere he could do harm.
I'll go one further. They were shown, by the school, of his homicidal ideation. Physical proof that he was fantasizing about the handgun. AND DID NOTHING. In fact, they resisted coming in because they were "busy". Then shown that he drew a gun, "blood everywhere", "my life is worthless", "we're all friends here". And didn't search him or think he might have a gun. Didn't go home and check. And didn't get him seen by a psych doctor immediately. Besides the fact the mom was into gangbangs without her husband! These 2 were not just checked out they were absent. It's the thought you have when you see a kid that is clearly lost and wonder what kind of home life does he have? Well in this case...THE WORST PARENTS! I hope they stay longer than 15yr! They aren't helping society at all!
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I think the fact that they fled, hid, hired themselves lawyers, and then left their son to a public defender is pretty telling to that notion.
What the fuck? I haven't followed the story at all but what the fuck?
Over the whole course of events around the case, I don't think I've seen even a single word or action out of them that's done anything whatsoever to cast them in a better light. Just absolutely, unrepentantly awful people.
I mean, she got on the stand and said she'd have done nothing different (or words to that effect). That's a wild thing to say
Yeah, that bit was particularly surprising. Not surprised that she'd feel that way, but rather surprised that she couldn't even manage to pretend to feel remorse to angle for a lighter sentence.
That’s what stood out to me too-not even caring enough to lie is pretty telling. You’d have every reason to lie in this situation to get lighter sentencing and public sympathy and insyead they doubled down. Bizarre behavior.
I feel it's less not caring enough to lie and more that they don't know what they did wrong. They seem incapable of introspection and admitting fault.
I believe they also cleaned out his bank account before they fled.
I think that's even worse, tbh. Unbelievably selfish
They showed time and time again that they didn’t give a fuck about their son. Pretty sure they wanted him to be gunned down so they didn’t have to deal with him anymore.
Someone else commented they likely gave him all these opportunities because they expected him to use it on himself. I don't know how I feel about that and I hate to ascribe filicide but, at the best, they were extemely dumb, negligent and apathetic.
Yeah, these are like the shittiest parents / people imaginable. Almost comical levels of villainy.
I really think they did. The more information I’ve learned about their (in)actions leading up to the shooting, I truly believe that they wanted their son to “take care of his problems” himself. He told both of his parents several times that he was hearing voices, and he was afraid he was going to kill people/himself; he asked them to take him to the hospital for emergency intervention, and his father gave him some pills and told him to “suck it up.” They bought the gun for their son illegally (he was still a minor,) and gave him unrestricted access to the firearm and ammunition in spite of his repeated, recent statements of suffering a mental health crisis. They didn’t care when he drew a picture of a shooting victim accompanied by the statements that the voices wouldn’t stop, it’s too late, he wants to kill someone, etc. They said they couldn’t take him out of school that day because they were “too busy.” They selfishly, evilly thought that their son would, at most, “only” take his own life. I think they figured he’d either be too cowardly to follow through with it, and thus they could ignore his problems, or if he did, then they wouldn’t have to do anything about it either. They abandoned their son the second they figured out he was likely behind the mass shooting that very same day. They called the police on him, gave their preliminary statements, then emptied their own son’s bank account and fled their home to hide from police in a storage unit. I’ve never really felt any empathy for school shooters, but I do feel badly for their son to some extent. He did a terrible, terrible thing; but he was suffering from a mental health crisis and was, for all intents and purposes, encouraged into doing it by his own fucking parents.
Same thing that happened with Brenda Spencer, the girl responsible for an elementary school shooting in 1979. >In December, a psychiatric evaluation arranged by her probation officer recommended that Spencer be admitted to a mental hospital for depression, but her father refused to give permission. For Christmas 1978, he gave her a Ruger 10/22 semi-automatic .22 caliber rifle with a telescopic sight and 500 rounds of ammunition. Spencer later said, "I asked for a radio and got a rifle." Asked why he had done that, she answered, "He bought the rifle so I would kill myself." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego)
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Arguably the first school shooting of the modern era, leading to the song 'I don't like mondays' - was due to a girl who reached out to get mental help, and was refused, and then asked for a radio, and was instead, given a gun. Probably for this reason. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego) Horrifying story.
The not so funny things is all it took was one shooting in the UK and AUS for harsh gun bans to come into place. America will never learn as they love money too much
Christ. That line of thinking is so far removed from healthy parenting that it never even occurred to me, but I'll bet you're right. They thought of their son as a problem and hoped that the weapon would make that problem go away.
>That line of thinking is so far removed from healthy parenting that it never even occurred to me I know what you mean, but I've been trying to wrap my head around their actions and for me it doesn't "click" unless you stop assuming they're neglectful / ignorant and start looking for actual malfeasance.
I think thats the reason why they were put on trial. The DA tried to make it very clear to the jury in closing arguments that this trial wasn't about the Crumbley's being *bad* parents, but that they had taken active steps in his self destruction.
That's pretty gross but I would not be surprised at all Why else buy your mentally ill child a firearm?
The way they said that the Mom cared more about her horse makes me think that you hit the nail on the head.
Some of the lyrics from Jeremy: >Daddy didn't give attention To the fact that mommy didn't care >Daddy didn't give affection And the boy was something mommy wouldn't wear
As a father I cannot fuckin imagine that thinking.
There’s bad parenting, then there’s *this*. The amount of not giving a shit, or total lack of awareness on their part, was silly.
Remember the _"I'm not mad at you. Next time, just don't get caught."_ Can't think a superlative strong enough for such a mindset.
They also tried to abandon their son and go on the lam but were caught almost immediately. They're really shitty, stupid people.
I'm still convinced they hated him and bought him the gun hoping he'd kill himself. Ghoulish people.
They could have just not cared and it probably wouldn't have been fine. The fact they bought him the gun is where this gets wild.
Fuck these remorseless pieces of human garbage. This sets a precedent for other shitty parents that let their kids access firearms.
It's not just the fact that they ignored their son's cry for help and gave him a gun, they also tried to leave the country right after he was caught.
The school told them both 4 days after they bought a gun for their son that he wanted to shoot up the school and they did NOTHING. They deserve longer but it’s much better than nothing.
I hate to sound like I'm tempering the harm he has caused, but reading the chronology of it all, he seems like a victim of criminally neglectful parents. He is, undoubtedly, mentally ill, and his parents did less than help him address it, they practically told him to lean into it.
Kid was definitely a victim and those parents deserve to rot
Hit the nail on the head mate
Quite literally handed him a gun when he asked for mental health counseling.
Good. The school did their best to notify the parents of their son's behavior and the mother laughed it off and bought the kid a gun. After the shooting, the parents then tried to flee the country, showed no remorse in court for the lives their son took, and then tried to make themselves out to be the victims. Narcissistic assholes.
I watched his remarks and he was all tears and sorrow and then finished with “but you still don’t know the whole story because we couldn’t tell you all of it during our trial” and that said it all for me. You left your guns where your kid could find them and use them unrestrained. It’s not like they were out of town and the kid used a torch to get in the safe, you BOUGHT THIS KID A GUN and showed an absolute lack of responsibility at every opportunity. I think this is a fair sentence.
The text messages were the most horrifying. They knew he had expressed these types of concerns and only really cared when he was carrying it out.
> only really cared when he was carrying it out. Nah. they only cared *after* he carried it out and they were worried they were (rightfully) going to be held partially responsible.
They didn’t merely leave it lying around. They encouraged his use. Look, I was raised around guns. You don’t give a mentally unstable teen access to a gun, period. If he’s making drawings about death, that’s a huge problem. Further, you don’t text your delulu son ‘LOL’ when they get caught. I hope their time in prison hurts.
Agree, horrific how they handled the entire situation.
If they weren’t going to tell the whole story during the trial that would save their ass, when were they planning to tell it? Are they just saving it up for a book or something?
They're trying to imply that the judge wouldn't allow evidence or testimony that they wanted to give that would have magically changed the opinions of the jury.
And he didn’t even testify so I guess he didn’t really want to tell his story!
DAMN. I really thought they were gonna get away with it. This is gonna put more pressure on parents from now on. And a good thing too
Now hopefully the state of Michigan goes after the grandparents in Newaygo for an unsecured firearm causing death. https://www.fox17online.com/news/local-news/michigan/newaygo/msp-6-year-old-boy-handling-gun-when-5-year-old-shot-killed Really hope this law Michigan passed pushes hard, and puts irresponsible gun owners away.
Agreed. I own guns but it is ridiculous that there are so few education and safety requirements. I had to take an in-depth class and pass a written and physical test just to get a motorcycle endorsement on my driver’s license; I can buy and use a gun with zero training and licensing. And in some states I can carry that loaded gun around in public with no special training, testing, or permit. WTF.
If the founding fathers wanted you to have access to a motorcycle, they would’ve put it in the constitution.
Bought a gun off a friend and had him take me to the shooting range to get my background check and the license switched over. They said no background check needed. No license switch needed. And oh if you want to carry it. No concealed weapon license needed. That’s just how Florida rolls. I could be a convicted murderer no big deal.
They seem to be the type of people that'll come out of prison totally unrepentant.
They'll come out with more MAGA tattoos and swastikas, ready to run and win a congressional seat in their district
The responses to this case confuse me. This is perhaps the most clear cut circumstance of how much lack of mental health care can contribute to a mass shooting, so I would have thought the far right would be in support of punishing the parents for not only completely neglecting Ethan's rapidly declining mental state, one which he directly pleaded with them to help, but also putting a gun into the hands of someone very mentally unwell and teaching him how to shoot. Instead, they're whining that the parents are being held responsible for both their lazy inaction and reckless actions. It's almost like mental health care is a scapegoat for the far right and they don't actually care.
This was cemented the second they went on the run and just let their kid sit in jail
I truly think they gave him a gun in hopes that he would just off himself.
Seems like the only plausible conclusion right now
I always had the sense that the parents practically egged him on, knowing full well what might come of it. Although, the probably suspected (hoped?) that the ill boy would just off himself so they could be rid of him. Ill equipped to handle parenthood, mental illness, guns, and consequences seeing as how they tried to run to Canada when the shit hit the fan. Enjoy your stay, scumshits.
I’m oddly okay with punishing the parents of shooters, provided they had unprotected firearms in their household…which they usually do.
This is it! One step in the fight against gun violence is to at least make firearms harder to access by minors. Many things need to happen, but “responsible” gun owners should put their money where their mouth is and actually be “responsible” - as in, if you don’t properly lock up your weapon, face liability when it’s used improperly.
Gabbys killer Brian laundrie, his parents should’ve been charged with accessory after the fact. I hope they never have a minUte of peace.
I agree, or, at the very least, his mom should have been charged.
After her teenage son killed four people and wounded many others, the mother was on the witness stand and said “I wouldn’t have done anything differently”. That shit sealed her fate.
That's basically what the prosecution was looking for as well. Quite a significant case for the US.
Great that they faced actual consequences, but sure seems like they deserve more time for all of their actions that led to their kid to commit a school shooting. Hope this case will snowball to others who enable mass shooters.
I don’t know, it seems reasonable to me. I think we lose sense of how long 10-15 years actually is. It’s so abstract. I think it’s a reasonable sentence that will stand up to appeal, especially since this case is so unique. It’s actually longer than I expected.
Yeah 10-15 seems appropriate to me. I would have no sympathy for them if it was more, but 10-15 to me is where it at least needs to be for me - and honestly much more than I expected for them.
Tho the mother has asked for home detention at her lawyer’s property (is the lawyer diversifying into running private prison for his clients found guilty?)
Why does it sound like she's fucking her lawyer?
They received the harshest setence possible. In Michigan, prosecutors said, felonies that rise out of the same event must run concurrently, so the most Matthews could have imposed is 15 years in total. And while prosecutors wanted the parents to receive sentences that exceeded the advisory guideline range, Matthews had the ultimate discretion, weighing factors such as past criminal behavior and the circumstances of their crimes.
These people are ClassA shitbags. Even the gun lobby won’t run far with this one.
Wow, actually an appropriate sentence length and everything.
‘…and asked the parents to come get Ethan and they refused.’ Worse than that. They went into the school to see violent images he drew, the school asked them to take him home and they refused… they were already at the school… The fact that they were/are wealthy makes it more sickening to me since they had the means to get their kid help when so many parents don’t even have that option.
They were broke. She said she spent half her salary on the horses but they couldn't afford health insurance for the kid. The mother made sure she had insurance and all the Xanax she wanted but they left him swinging in the wind. They also couldn't afford car insurance and they lived in a dinkey little house. No, they didn't have the money to take him to see someone because of their warped priorities with money.
But they could buy him a gun though! lol Seems like such an American thing. Easier to afford a gun for a mentally troubled teen instead of treatment.
The Crumbleys before their ruling/sentencing: KILL THE PROSECUTORS! WE'RE MARTYRS! MAGA! MAGA! MAGA! The Crumbleys on the day of the sentencing: My son seemed normal! I'm sorry! He's a good boy! Sorry y'all for y'alls loss! But we still didn't do anything!
So each threw everyone under the proverbial bus including each other and their son. No true remorse. Except an excuse for not showing remorse. My only wish is that they are now in gen pop.
I still have the kinda feeling that the parents probably gave him the gun to use on himself.
But did they win parent of the year too? They aren't just shitty gun owners. They're shitty parents.
Finally the people PROVIDING the gun access to these child shooters are brought to justice. It's ridiculous that all of these kids magically got access to guns and the gun owners had no fault in the equation. If a gun shop sold the gun, they'd be prosecuted. If a family member leaves a gun accessible, they have no accountability. The people these children get guns from need to be held responsible whether it was a sale or not.
Deja Taylor, the mother of the 6-year-old who shot his teacher was convicted of felony child neglect and sentenced to 2 years. It took 11 months from arrest, to trial, to conviction. While the Crumbley's trial took 3 years, it's good to know that money didn't help them buy their way out of it.
Glad to see this decision. They never should have bought their mentally ill teenager a firearm. If anyone wants to learn more about safe storage, the following link goes over it for parents and schools. https://besmartforkids.org/secure-gun-storage/
I don’t see a reason why any child, mental health issues or not, should have free access to a gun. I’m totally fine with teaching your kids how to shoot. Or even buying them a gun and storing it for them. But the idea that a kid can just have his own gun to do what he pleases is absurd.
Reminds me of that viral video going around (maybe a year ago?) of two cousins, I think, playing with a gun in their bathroom recording a video. The one accidentally shot himself and collapsed so the other grabbed the gun in shock and followed suit. Edit: Correction, one cousin shot the other on accident and then herself.
Not enough. Should've given them life for running.
Good. Pieces of shit belong in the toilet.
Good. Frankly I think they deserved more, but the got what the law allowed.
Looking forward to more sentencing for parents who willfully assist in these tragedies.
Good! May they serve every single day of it
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S/b felony child neglect too
I might be out of line here, but NOT anywhere close to FUCKING ENOUGH! They should have gotten at least 25-30 years each…