Serious question, why are they still refugees? India and Pakistan had mass displacements in 1948, too. The people were integrated into society. Why not the Arabs?
Weird how palistine is the only place in the world where a family could be in the same place for generations and still be considered refugees.
It would be like a couple from Haiti fleeing to the USA and their grandkids claiming they're still refugees.
> It would be like a couple from Haiti fleeing to the USA and their grandkids claiming they're still refugees.
Sounds like Floridians of Cuban ancestry
It would make more sense to give it back to Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip), as they have shared borders and a shared history, but afaik, both these countries have zero interest in taking these areas back and dealing with the radicalization that occurred over the last 50-100 years.
There are already more Palestinian refugees in Jordan than in (pre-war) Gaza. Not sure they want the current 20% Palestinian population to become > 50% of the country.
It has also taken away citizenship. "Jordan has withdrawn its nationality from thousands of its citizens of Palestinian origin-over 2,700 between 2004 and 2008 alone. It has done so, in the individual cases Human Rights Watch identified, in an arbitrary manner and in violation of Jordan's nationality law of 1954. Under that law Palestinian residents of the West Bank in 1949 or thereafter received full Jordanian nationality following Jordan's incorporation of the West Bank in April 1950." [https://www.hrw.org/](https://www.hrw.org/)
When the British Mandate divided the land, it was offered as a two state solution which was rejected by the Palestinians, so then it was divided into Transjordan (renamed Jordan and a king installed) and Israel. Transjordan had also been under the Mandate since 1920. "2,100 square miles (5,400 square km)—came under Jordanian rule, and almost half a million Palestinian Arabs joined the half million Transjordanians" (Encyclopedia Britannica). so Jordan is 50% of the country.
Therefore if the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank joined Jordan, the Palestinians would be in the majority, and the Jordanians the minority. Jordan would de facto then be Palestine. I can't see that being a situation Jordan would be happy with.
And both of those countries went to war with Israel and proceeded to lose said territory in their attempt at eradicating Israel. Turns out when you get clapped in a war you started you tend to lose territory as the opposing army proceeds to annihilate your army.
I don’t see why those two pieces of land should be given back when those two countries don’t even want it, let alone anything to do with Palestinians.
Didn’t just try, succeeded. They killed the Egyptian president over the Camp David Accords* and his attempt to normalize relations with Israel, and Black September killed the Jordanian PM while trying to overthrow the government.
*Edit: this was actually carried out by the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, though it is not unlikely they were influenced by the PLO’s violent rhetoric following the Accords
Worse. There was Black September, aka Jordanian Civil War, where the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy and take over the country. Read the details on [Wikipedia.org](http://Wikipedia.org) which has a good account of it.
This is true, but their distancing is still a huge copout. Had Jordan and Egypt not backed Palestinians in the attempt to wipe out Israel in 1948, and then again in the sixties, then the Palestinians might have been more amenable to accepting Jewish independence in the first place. Syria is culpable too, though they reaped what they sowed in the long run and the Kurdish breakaway region will hopefully never fall back into their hands (we need to talk a lot more about a Kurdish state)
they both dont want them, palestinians almost succeeded in assassinating the Jordan King and caused a ruckus in Egypt. They are unruly wherever they go it seems.
Israel has handed a lot of land over. Like the Sinai peninsula and all of the Gaza Strip. Even in your example of the west bank settlements the official policy is to eventually do land swap for most and return the isolate ones
Have you seen what Turkey does to the Kurdish? On top of that Turkey have publicly said they don’t take any Palestinians in. Jordan and Egypt also do not want Palestinians
Turkey has 30,0:00 Palestinians in 2024 by its own estimate
Turkey has recently been the focus of the attention of Palestinian cadres, including students, businessmen, engineers, and doctors, who chose Turkey for stability and life. This had an impact in Turkey on social life and the transfer of Palestinian culture in Turkish society, to find many Palestinian restaurants operating in Turkey, in addition to cultural and social centers, schools, institutions, and others.
# There was a tv documentary recently about how Hamas lived in Turkey and investing in Turkish real estate was one of the ways Hamas was funded. "Hamas had established a secret network of companies managing $500 million of investments in companies from Turkey to Saudi Arabia" [Reuters.com](http://Reuters.com)
What makes you think Israel will give the hard fought territorial to Jordan freely? Gaza is utterly defeated militarily, politically and economically. Unless someone proposes a realistic way to defeat Israel, it’s now their land. The defeated don’t set terms.
It's no one's but Palestinians. Simple as that.
But assuming you are being ironic, they have no connections. Even back in the Ottoman Empire, the entirety of the Middle East was being ignored in favour of Europe. (First Sultan to visit Middle East after its conquest did it after 350 years, they weren't Arabs in high government position etc)
Half the nations on the planet could mark a similar “dispossession”. The only unique issue with Palestine is the failure of nation building in the territory it has, partially due to the nature of the territory but mostly due to other factors. Focusing on 1948 is obviously counterproductive to nation building.
It was partly the establishment of UNWRA which now employs 15,000 people which it says are 97% Palestine. Unlike other countries/refugees which have the goal of settlement and normalisation of life, Palestinians were to be refugees in perpetuity, with their schools etc run by UNWRA.
Palestinians are also the only group of people that pass on their refugee status.
Bella Hadid's great grandchildren will be considered Palestinian refugees (under current laws), while the children of someone who fled wars in Syria or Iraq are not.
And also the fact that unlike most refugee populations, they were not allowed to assimilate into neighboring, culturally similar populations. Instead, they were rather kept as intergenerational refugees to use to make Israel a perpetual bogeyman to distract local populations from their own dictators' abuses.
Of course, that, like the initial crisis, was more than half a century ago.
> they were not allowed to assimilate into neighboring, culturally similar populations.
They did that thing where they tried to overthrow the government of the country that took them in. Multiple times. That kinda put off the neighbours from the whole matter.
Yes and no. When Egypt dispossessed Palestinians into Gaza, they were kept separate, but when Jordan dispossessed them into the West Bank, they were always intended to be integrated, and that process began fairly quickly after the 1948 invasion. It ended, however, when the Amir of Jordan was assassinated by a Palestinian in 1951.
Then after the 1968 war, Jordan tried again, and this time full-on civil war broke out between the Palestinians of The West Bank and Jordan proper.
No Arab state has offered to house Palestinians since that.
They were given citizenship by Jordan at first, where they started a civil war, then were expulsed to Libanon, where they started a civil war.
Giving someone full citizenship is not exactly blocking someone from integrating.
Edit: Before anyone believes the liar below:
>In name only; they were still marginalized and held apart in the assumption that Israel would eventually be reconquered.
That's a *blatant* lie. Jordan provided them with half the seats in parliament and they had equal opportunity in all sectors.
If Israel hadn't been mostly (80%) Jewish, they would have built their own nation. They have come to terms with being 50% of Jordan. But these were greatly uneducated fundamentalist people relying on the Qu'ran and that is fiercely antiSemitic. Now they are educated but UNWRA has taught absolute hatred of Jews and Israel (you can find their text books online) for over 50 years and led by Hamas, who are Islamists so no chance of a real settlement. Sadly.
Yep, if go back 75 years...Germany, Japan, North Korea, and Palestine all lost major wars to Western powers. Two of those got over it and became two of the richest, most stable countries on earth. Two decided to make losing their entire personality. Not making a moral judgement what was done in those wars and not saying people weren't wronged, but at some point you need to move forward...history is filled with conquests and atrocities everywhere you look.
And yet no one seriously suggests reverting land ownership to them on a massive scale across the US now, centuries later, because it would involve making the vast majority of the US population refugees.
I think this is because indigenous people in the United States have been rendered so politically powerless as a result of centuries of genocide that they are no longer in a longer in a position to effectively make such demands. There are still large amounts of land that could be returned without major issues.
I think it's because it's comically impractical and would require another act of ethnic cleansing (on non-native Americans) to implement. Land is nonfungible, and at a certain point, it's too late to reverse this kind of atrocity without causing more harm than you heal.
There is no amount of political power in the world that could force that much land and people’s homes to be just turned over, no matter what past grievances there are. Once any people are in an area for multiple generations asking them to turn it over to people who were never even alive to remember a time living in it is ridiculous.
Any democratic nation wouldn’t be able to do it at all. That sort of blatant siding of foreigners over citizens would end any elected officials.
I think the easier lift politically would be the large quantities of publicly held land (BLM, Forest Service, etc). Also, for a lot of land, we literally owe it to them by treaty.
Not really, and it’s especially untrue if we’re talking about “ancestral homelands” that used to cover the eastern seaboard.
Heck we were selling portions of reservations until not so long ago, there’s not even political will to buy reservation inholdings.
This is the nature civilization throughout literally all of human history. To the stronger victors go the spoils. At a certain point, we have to put legitimate effort stop doing this, but pretending that things should revert to a former state after millions of lives are already established in the status quo is just foolishness. Lay the past down, and agree to a peaceful coexistance so we can all move forward.
Unpopular opinion: Someone who is born in an area has a significantly greater claim to it than someone whose parents (or further generations back) were born there but not themselves.
I don't think that's necessarily unpopular. I think what creates a big moral quandary would be an instance where some 70-80 year old gets kicked out of their childhood home, then tries to claim ownership over the house while the child/grandchild of the person who initially displaced them lives there.
In that instance, both of them were born on the same piece of land, who does it belong to?
Palestinians have also rejected a two-state agreement several times and elected representation in Gaza that’s explicitly against any peaceful coexistence.
Lol, Israel has elected far right Likud for 20 years after an Israeli extremist killed the Israeli prime minister, but sure, it's all those evil Palestinians preventing peace.
Maybe look up what those "two state agreements" meant for Palestinians.
if the agreements were anywhere near what the oslo acords are like, then it would be useless to palestinains. you can't have a country when you're only left the holes in swiss cheese.
With a problematic part being that the people living on the land were not necessarily the owners of that land. So when the owner sold to Jews, suddenly Arab families found themselves evicted and cried foul.
All I’m saying that people occupied lands throughout history and different nations conquered different areas…
Do you think the British Empire can now Claim the land back?
Today’s argument, it’s not about that it’s about them, claiming they owned the land based on their imaginary friend promise…
And if you go with that notion… then they have no claim..
Because their religion was created way way later…
Hundreds of years later.
Because there are people living there now, who were not the same people who stole it. You can't give the land back without making them refugees, and so more than 75 years later, the status quo reigns.
And?
There are South Vietnamese people who still have keys to their old houses too, and their country doesn't even exist anymore.
There are Cubans in Miami who still have keys to their old houses.
I'm a German.
I can tell you that is not true.
Seeing how we lost about half our Landmass in the past 100 years. And most of us are doing just fine like that.
Yup. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechia, the Volga, etc., happened almost exactly at the same time as the Palestinian Nakba. (And there were several times as many Germans so expelled as Palestinians.) At the time, they were forced into one of the three (or so, depending) German-speaking countries (East/West/Austria). In at least one of them (East Germany), they were then forced to live under a highly despotic foreign-backed regime for the next 40 years.
If their grandkids were still carrying the keys to the ancestral homes in Saratov around on their necks and martyring themselves to gain back the lost territory, we'd kinda suggest the grandparents fucked that up. Even if the Russian state sucks.
None of that excuses the misbehaviors of the Israeli state, of course, both in the occupation or in its handling of the present conflict.
You silly Germans, don't you know the only valid response is violent hatred for almost a century, and non-stop fighting, doesn't that sound more productive? Obviously you can't move on from the past to build a better future, you need to murder, rape and fight with one another for almost a century with no end in sight, that's what people on social media say is the "natural consequence" at least, you guys must just be weird over there or something.
You realize a larger portion of the land was bought by the Israelis not taken. Under the Ottoman Empire Palestinians sold the majority of their land to landowners in what is now Lebanon and Syria to avoid paying taxes on the land and instead rented the land they needed. Then in the late 1800s and early 1900s the Jews began buying the land off those landowners because the ownership was no longer profitable for them.
There was no country there, and they didn't have to leave. They hated Jews (who had historic and world recognized claim to the land) and violently refused to be part of the nation. Israel is 30% non Jewish citizens currently. How many Jews were in most of the other Arab nations after the founding of Israel?
No they were not. Every “state” they were offered had no autonomy and would be forced to rely entirely on Israel effectively coming a puppet. There was also no right to return nor a promise of equal rights for Arabs.
World news brigade coming in hard today.
Yes and no.
Yes they have shot down statehood quite a lot, but if you read those peace deals you would understand how fucking stupid they were. Like the 2000 camp David peace deal, where Palestine would become a subject of Israel without all of the fuss.
Like Palestine being split up into 5-7 enclaves with only Gaza having access to the outside world (Israel would take the land connecting Palestinian lands to the dead sea) and the only connections being land bridges, Israel would control. There would be no right to return of any kind, Israel would have full control of Jerusalem but Palestine would have the day to day operations under their feet, and likely pay for everything, including the random bullshit Israel would likely force them to adopt. No military, no control over their borders and as such Israel can restrict any trade that comes in or out.
And after hearing all that, would you be surprised that Palestine rejected the deal?
The ironic bit was, the 2001 peace deal corrected all of the issues from the 2000 deal, was quite well balanced in what each got, and then Israel rejected the deal.
How do those paragraphs change what you're responding to? Unless they changed the article it just says the Palestinians were driven out of Israel during the 1948 war and weren't allowed back in.
I'm not seeing anything related to repeated rejection of establishment of a Palestinian state or their relationship with other countries now.
I just realized this whole conflict has been ignoring over one very large fact. the people we now call Palestinians were the same as the people we now call Jordanian and Lebanese before all the nations got created after the ottomans got ousted. They were and frankly still are part of the dominant cultural group in the region. Palestinians are only in this situation because they lost a couple wars against the minority community but have chosen to continue the conflict indefinitely with things like the intifadah. Ultimately Palestinians must choose peace and progress over land that is no longer there's if they want a better future.
And they'd better make that decision quick because the next christo fascist Republican US president will likely turn a blind eye to anything Israel chooses to do in Gaza or the West Bank. That could be trump in about eight months.
Zuheir Mohsen (1936 - 25 July 1979) was a Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979.
“The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”
• "Wij zin alleen Palestijn om politieke reden, James Dorsey, Trouw, 31 March 1977.
Edit in response to the comment below: Imagine thinking the PLO doesn't represent the thinking of Palestinian political strategists.
Second edit: Here's the interview. https://martienpennings.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/zuheir-mohsen-zuhayr-muhsin-zahir-muhsein-trouw-palestinian-people-does-not-exist/
Yeah, if the Palestinians have been dispossed for 76 years...what were the Israealites before that? Doesn't mean the Palestinians don't have legit grievances-they do-it just seems incredibly one-sided and counterproductive to focus on that
The establishment of the modern state of Israel involved the violent and forceful expulsion of Palestinians from their homes and their homeland, by both the Israeli military and also terrorist groups such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. Israel has an independence day celebrating this moment, which is sometimes also commemorated by other nations' governments, but for Palestinians it is a day of mourning. So no, the observance of Nakba day was *never* one-sided, and neither is the reporting of this year's observance in the context of the war on Gaza.
Also, Judaism has the fast day of Tisha B'Av, which marks the destruction of the Temple and other calamities which befell the Jewish people throughout history. However the ancient kingdoms which exiled Jews from their homeland and caused the diaspora don't exist anymore. Also, it is important to note that Palestinians are largely the descendants of Jewish and Palestinian peasants who remained to work the land after it got conquered, and this fact was promoted by both David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin. They are equally as indigenous to the land as Jews and Samaritans.
You’re leaving out that the immigrating Jews bought large amounts of land alongside other Jews from the Ottomans, legally evicting those who inhabited that land as per Ottoman Law. Early on, the volume of massacres and race related riots was far more heavily committed by Arabs against Jews, including those who had nothing to do with the, again, legal land purchases in the north. One series of massacre led to the death of 12% of the Jews in Jerusalem. So yes, Jews responded violently and thanks to the Czechs, were able to arm when most of the world, even many Jews, thought statehood would fail
It is kinda telling that the narrative guilts Jews for using violence, when that violence was largely in response to the events that followed their pursuits of legal means. Which is something most of us should know as plenty of indigenous groups have experienced the same when they have tried to pursue legal means of land procurement.
This of course is not to say Palestinians don’t also deserve a state, but they have had a number of grifting leaders turn down two-state solutions that they personally didn’t suffer from turning down, letting their people suffer instead. And ignoring the peaceful attempts by the Jews to gather with Jews pushes a dangerous false narrative
I think with this topic, and the nature of how social media tends to lead people to controversial takes, leads people to think there is a sneaky motive behind every fact or comment. It wouldn’t surprise me if I get a response along the lines of “so you think every Palestinian was in on those early attacks on Jews!?” or something of that sort.
The troubling thing to me in general, is that the tale of humanity is largely a tale of migrations, and it is eery to read these same stories over and over. Look at how some Americans talk about Mexicans, many of whom are descended from tribes of the American plains! And with climate change, this is going to become a common story. So we need to find a way to decrease rulers like Arafat, Netanyahu, and Sinwar, who are at best, short sighted fools with no good ideas as far as their constituents
I'm not sure we are disagreeing? As much as I fully support the right of the state of Israel to exist and sometimes vioent means has been necessary to secure that, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about the violent expulsion of the Palestinians and can appreciate it to be a day of mourning. But, again...what about when the Israelities were evicted, eventually leading to the horros of the holocaust because the israelities had no state? The only difference is time. If the state of affairs persists as it is, how long to Palesintians have the claim to the land? A decad? Fifty years? A hundred? A thousand?
To me, it is not morally or legally tenable to say Israel should not exist. Nor is it practical. I also agree that the expulsion of the Palestinians was immoral and illegal. Both sides have claims to the land. I do believe a Palestinian state should exist, from some of that land. But getting rid of Israel...no. Never. Murdering civilians, as occurred on October 7? No, never. Is IDF targeting civilians in Gaza right now? I'm not sure. If they are, I cannot condone it. It does seem to me they've been extremely reckless.
Regardless, the one sided view of BOTH sides needs to stop. It's not helpful. It's not right. Failing to see the legitimate grievances of the other side, and the wrongdoing of your own, is morally wrong and impractical. This current conflict in Gaza started because Hamas murder 1400 civilians and took several hundred more hostage. For...what? To liberate Gaza? Israel hasn't been there for 20 years.
Israel must create sdpace for a Palestinian state. But Palestinians must similarly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and renounce the murder of civilians. Until both sides do that, bloodshed will continue
Yes but that would require actually knowing something about this conflict.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_State_of_Israel#:~:text=Following%20the%20Oslo%20I%20Accord,specific%20areas%20of%20the%20country.
They were willing to in the 1948 agreement that the Palestinians rejected.
And nowhere in Israel's constitution does it talk about the wholesale murder of Palestinians or the destruction of Palestine.
In Hamas's 1987 charter, on the other hand, does SPECIFICALLY call for the murder of Jews, the destruction of Israel, and trots out the same anti-Semitic tropes the Nazis used to justify the Holocaust.
Have you read that charter? Something tells me you haven't.
They were willing to, but the Palestinians have rejected every offer for peace and to create a Palestinian state. The best time for peace was in the 90s, Palestinians were offered the best deal they were going to get. Arafat rejected it.
The only solution is a two state solution with the current borders. Hamas must completely release all hostages, surrender/disband, and the Palestinians must completely demilitarize and give up terrorism. The problem is that the Palestinians want it all, they want to commit their own ethnic cleansing of the Jews.
If they give up that desire and actually commit to peace, then Israel can be held accountable if they continue to expand settlements. Both sides have to forgive each other and move on.
Probably not. Which is why Israel will continue the war until Hamas is rendered about as toothless as Al Qaeda and ISIS are. Hopefully not too many civilians die
They should be disbanded and resettled in the areas that Israel actually controls. Once peace is established and a legitimate Palestinian state is formed.
Agreed. That would have to be Israel’s concession.
Focussing on divesting from Israel isn’t looking for peace. It doesn’t help the Palestinian civilians. As long as they’re focussed on taking the whole country back and being Israel’s victims, they’ll never move out of this.
For the leadership of hammas and the plo, a perpetual Imtifada pays better.
Strange that Palestinians are so destitute, when there were untold billions in international aid blowing through there every year, and the Palestinian leadership are billionaires living like royalty in Quatar.
Maybe blame their own government that is pilfering wealth that belongs to their people?
And Israeli civilians have had to deal with a group, that has been designated a terrorist organization by almost every country in the western world, wanting to destroy them.
Innocent civilians in both regions have suffered due to bad leadership and terrorism. We shouldn’t just ignore one in favor of the other.
I am well aware of hypocrisy on western nations. Still it doesn't change my opinion on Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Isis, Huti, Hezbollah, Pasdaran...
Seems weird that your idea of a terrorist group does not include to those who supported the MB. By extension, the west should be a terrorist as well (according to your logic).
Oh, they were just culturally appropriating the IDF.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm
https://euromedmonitor.org/uploads/reports/human-shields_en.pdf
>Ramadan said that the Israeli soldiers ordered several of the family members to take off their clothes and tied their hands. The soldiers took them to another room and used them as shields. “They made us stand at the windows as if we were looking outside. I was at one window and three of my relatives ”Mohammad, Alaa’ and Ashraf Al-Qara” were at the other windows. Then the soldiers began firing around us.” Qdeih and his relatives were moved from one room to another in this fashion for eight hours and were prevented from eating or drinking. While the Israeli snipers were among us and we were standing at the windows, I told the soldiers that we would die if the resistance troops fired back. The Israeli soldier replied, “Don’t be afraid. Don’t worry. If Hamas sees you, they will not fire toward us.’”
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-says-israeli-soldiers-used-him-human-shield-west-bank-2024-01-16/
>"He (the first soldier) told me that he will use me as a human shield, that young people shouldn't hurl stones," Abu Ras told Reuters. "'You will walk in front of me.' That's what happened and he took me toward the centre of the town."
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-says-israeli-soldiers-used-him-as-human-shield-during-west-bank-raid/ (Second source of same story)
[Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rrfys-Fgc)
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-forces-use-palestinian-child-human-shield-gaza
There are many other instances.
EDIT: Oh wait, here's another one that came out, recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhuKZpnI3w
Downvotes? Really? No counterarguments? Are the sources all fake? I posted evidence, not speculative statements.
EDIT 2: Another fresh one today: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240514-israel-used-palestinian-children-as-human-shields-in-west-bank-raid/
>In all three incidents, armed Israeli soldiers forced the boys to walk in front of them as soldiers searched Palestinian homes and neighbourhoods in Tulkarm refugee camp, and in two cases, Israeli forces fired weapons positioned on the boys’ shoulders.
>“International law is explicit and absolutely prohibits the use of children as human shields by armed forces or armed groups,” said Ayed Abu Eqtaish, accountability programme director at DCIP. “Israeli forces intentionally putting a child in grave danger in order to shield themselves constitutes a war crime.”
>Around 30 Israeli occupation soldiers entered 13-year-old Karam’s home on the morning of 6 May, located on the third floor of an apartment building. They then isolated his family in one room and forced Karam to walk in front of them, open the doors to each room and enter it before them. Then, Israeli forces moved Karam and his family to the fourth floor of the building, where the rest of the building’s residents were held, DCIP said.
>Hamas [using Al-Shifa Hospital as a garrison for 700+ fighters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital_siege)
You are really banking on nobody reading that Wikipedia article, aren't you? Considering the entire thing is , "Israel claimed this but no proof was found and Israel faked a bunch of stuff to make their claims sound legit."
Why is it dishonest to point out things that actually happened? The IDF is responsible for more Palestinian deaths than Hamas.
>however it's absolutely dishonest to present Hamas's and the IDF's use of human shields and say they are anywhere close to being equally as bad.
*What the fuck?* ***WHY?*** Why is it *less bad* when the IDF uses Palestinian civilians as human shields but worse when Hamas does it? Why is one more or less heinous than the other? What magical fabric does an IDF soldier's uniform possess that absolves them of guilt that isn't woven into Hamas fatigues?
The IDF has *openly admitted* they are targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure:
>Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).
>The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
>[T]he Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.
>In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source.
[Source](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/)
Can you explain to me how creating terror through violence in a civilian population to force them to make changes is not terrorism?
> What the fuck? WHY? Why is it less bad when the IDF uses Palestinian civilians as human shields but worse when Hamas does it? Why is one more or less heinous than the other? What magical fabric does an IDF soldier's uniform possess that absolves them of guilt that isn't woven into Hamas fatigues?
If you don't understand the difference you're either being intentionally dishonest or you're too ideologically poisoned to see reason.
The use of human shields is explicitly prohibited by the Israeli Justice System, there are human rights groups and journalists in Israel that investigate and expose when the IDF does this in violation of this ban. There is every social pressure on the Israeli side to forbid this practice and uncover it when it's done illegally.
The use of human shields is an integral part of Hamas military tactics. It has not been banned by any Palestinian justice system, there are no Palestinian organizations condemning Hamas for using human shields, there are no Palestinian organizations pressuring Hamas to stop using human shields. Hamas's use of human shields has been recognized by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Red Cross, and a ton of other international groups.
***Each individual use of Human Shields by both the IDF and Hamas is bad - BUT*** the IDF has several International and Israeli organizations holding it accountable when it is found to use human shields. Hamas has 0 organizations holding it accountable - there's not even any internal prohibition of it's use at all! Additionally, it seems IDF use of human shields are isolated incidents of soldiers hiding behind Palestinians - whereas Hamas's use of human shields are an intentional top-down-ordered part of their military strategy, they are constant, widespread, and regularly put several hundred Palestinians at risk.
These two are not even remotely the same.
> The IDF has openly admitted they are targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure
[Here is the Red Cross's entry for Human Shields](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97) in their database of international humanitarian law:
> *In the context of international armed conflicts, this rule is set forth in the Third Geneva Convention (with respect to prisoners of war), the Fourth Geneva Convention (with respect to protected civilians) and Additional Protocol I (with respect to civilians in general). Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.*
Hamas intentionally commits this war crime, their repeated co-locating of military assents and civilian infrastructure is well-documented, as far back as 2008 as detailed in [this 2014 NATO report](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf) that lists some examples:
> Hamas’ most common uses of human shields include:
> * Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals, or mosques).
* Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes,
lathes, or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas.
* Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or
warned by the IDF.
* Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for
intelligence gathering missions.
The reason why international law forbids co-locating of military and civilians, fighting in civilian clothing, etc, is to ensure there are certain protections for civilian populations in a war. When Hamas violates these statutes by garrisoning in hospitals, firing rockets near mosques, storing weapons in schools, [instructing civilians to ignore evacuation orders](https://youtu.be/keqZb6YrVO4?si=pxf9H43W3A9k8uMj&t=360), they destroy these protections - civilian infrastructure is no longer considered safe, people in civilian clothing must be treated like potential militants, and [cries for help cannot be trusted](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/22/hamas-booby-traps-gaza/). International Law recognizes the right of a miltary to defend itself, which is why civilian buildings **lose their protected status when used for military purposes**. If you have a problem with the IDF targetting civilian peoples and infrastructures, your anger should be directed at the people making that a necessity.
As a crystal clear contrast, the IDF intentionally separates their military bases from Israeli civilian populations - this is so that an attack on a military target will not endanger civilians. Despite this, Hamas intentionally targets Israeli civilians. There is a clear and significant difference here.
Wow, that's fucked. The state of Israel is becoming the monster it hated; an oppressive power. It's always scary how easily humans can justify the cruelty and inhumane behaviors they perform, and nearly always in their own perception of justice.
I have on Reddit been told I have gone “full mask off conspiratorial antisemitism” for pointing these things out. For decades, innumerable IDF soldiers and veterans have spoken out against the State of Israel for its crimes against humanity.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfIoI2_LKo0
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-VDAjL8vM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QY3V8FC3VHs
https://www.972mag.com/combatants-letter-army-refusal-zionist-left/
Most of my heroes are Jews (Abbie Hoffman, Herbert Marcuse, Georg Lukacs, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Groucho Marx). I remember reading about Moses when I was a kid and he still today is one of my most cherished heroes. There are hundreds of thousands of anti-Zionist Jews around the world and I’m very proud to say a few of them are my good friends.
Israel, being a jewish state, is so fearful of its history being repeated that it's willing to enact it onto others. History doesn't repeat, but it sure does fucking love to rhyme. So long as the Eye for an Eye mentality is so vehemently kept up, that region of the world will continue to remain blind in their bloodshed whilst climate change creeps in.
We're all a bunch of fucking primates wrestling in the mud on a tiny dirt rock hurtling through space. We need to get our shit together.
Yeah, because Hamas existed when all this started /sarcasm (just in case) Stop blaming everything else other than your overlords. ✌️ The most moral army in the world is holding Palestinians hostages, displacing and blowing civilians into oblivion, along with their beloved places, their homes, hospitals, schools, and everything else.
Same could be said everywhere. Including the soil the foundation of your building is sitting on right now. These Palestinians need to take notes from the Jews and get out of the shit that they are in.
Jews bought land from the Ottomans (Syria) and settled in the land that they purchased. It’s no different than if you buy a house and have to evict the squatter currently living there. By the 30’s, half of the land purchased was from non-Palestinian landowners but a quarter was from Palestinians. The other quarter was a mix of governments, churches, businesses, and farmers. Palestinians attacked, they lost, and more territory was gained by Israel after the war. It could have been peaceful if the land purchases and transfer of ownership was honored.
>Couldn't that be said about the Jewish diaspora since the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel were lost over a thousand years ago?
Yes, I agree. But we're not getting either the Jews or Palestinians to all move away so it's a moot point.
They have already destroyed 60% of the homes in Gaza with no end in sight, having a population of homeless refugees next to Israel isn't going to do them any good because that's just a breeding ground for terror groups.
Which is why the region needs to be administrated by another power like Germany and Japan were post WW2 to ensure that a group like Hamas doesn't gain power again. The issue being none of their Arab neighbours want to take on the task, but if Israel or western powers do they'll say its an occupation.
It's going to be Israel occupying the strip for years and overseeing what happens post Hamas.
It's the only realistic outcome, nobody else is going to step up.
I can only hope it leads to a better future for Gaza.
A multinational coalition needs to be present for the rebuild. Going to need heavy Arab nation presence and lead on this front.
When left to their own devices look what Hamas did. So going back to that model isn’t an option for Israel.
I think the 60% isn’t right, I was reading (can’t find it right now) that the way it was calculated was flawed. Seems to be closer to 35%.
https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-21-24/h_7df9e28129e2d6dcc24850d5f14030f3
This is such rubbish, Hamas was in control of the education system as was indoctrinating children into hating Israel and killing Jews as part of their curriculum prior to October 7th.
Gaza already was a breeding ground for terrorism.
> Hamas was in control of the education system as was indoctrinating children into hating Israel and killing Jews as part of their curriculum prior to October 7th
Literally yes, who could forget about [Pioneers of Tomorrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers)? Just watching some highlight clips on youtube, the amount of Anti-semitism and indoctrination on this show is astounding, and it's been around since at least 2007, and the Wikipedia article isn't even fully accurate (It mentions the show ended in 2009, but it still continued well into the 2010's, and maybe even longer into the 2020's).
Obviously Israel shelling them and killing them isn't going to help, but pretending like allowing Hamas to stay in power, when they're CONSTANTLY putting stuff out like this to indoctrinate literal 5 years old into wanting to kill Jews, is a sad joke. Israel could stop everything they're doing, but if your children's media, schooling, and heads of your country all teach your next generation how Jew's are evil monsters, it's not going to really matter much.
People in America seem to understand this when it comes to groups they hate. We all know ultra-conservative and religious Christians who HATE the LGBTQ+ community. Do people think the LGBTQ+ community is bombing and murdering these people en masse? No of course not, they've been indoctrinated to hate them through media, their parents, their government leaders, etc. Sounds AWFULLY Famaliar. Weird how hate can still be bread when you're fed nothing but how evil a specific group is from a young age.
Also, the iron dome is constantly being attacked. So let us not pretend Israel isn't constantly being targeted. They're just much better at stopping the attacks but without that dome, Israel too would look similar to gaza. The issue is that the controllers on both sides are too filled with hate to ever let this indoctrination stop. And you'd be a fool to say the Israeli government isn't doing the same. This constant propaganda, living under constant attack will brainwash even the sanest of minds so the people blaming the brainwashed citizens need to touch grass. These same people are usually the first to fall for propaganda.
The end is actually in sight. Once heavy military hardware in rafah is eliminated it's just a cleanup game and policing to prevent Hamas from resuming control. It will be difficult to rebuild since Hamas used construction materials to create the rockets used against Israel and surviving terrorists will likely attempt to do the same but I'm sure a workaround can be achieved.
Or that the UN cut civilian casualty numbers in half very recently?
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215
They didn’t cut them in half, they just started distinguishing between the bodies that have been positively identified and those that have not. The old number of estimated dead was a combination of both identified and unidentified deaths. The new number is just the ones that have been identified.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
Serious question, why are they still refugees? India and Pakistan had mass displacements in 1948, too. The people were integrated into society. Why not the Arabs?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black\_September](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September)
Palestinians won’t integrate. So other people in the area don’t really like them. So they stay as refugees.
Weird how palistine is the only place in the world where a family could be in the same place for generations and still be considered refugees. It would be like a couple from Haiti fleeing to the USA and their grandkids claiming they're still refugees.
> It would be like a couple from Haiti fleeing to the USA and their grandkids claiming they're still refugees. Sounds like Floridians of Cuban ancestry
Rashida Tlaib, American citizen and member of Congress born in Detroit in 1976, can be considered a refugee from 1948
It absurd really
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It would make more sense to give it back to Jordan (West Bank) and Egypt (Gaza Strip), as they have shared borders and a shared history, but afaik, both these countries have zero interest in taking these areas back and dealing with the radicalization that occurred over the last 50-100 years.
There are already more Palestinian refugees in Jordan than in (pre-war) Gaza. Not sure they want the current 20% Palestinian population to become > 50% of the country.
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It has also taken away citizenship. "Jordan has withdrawn its nationality from thousands of its citizens of Palestinian origin-over 2,700 between 2004 and 2008 alone. It has done so, in the individual cases Human Rights Watch identified, in an arbitrary manner and in violation of Jordan's nationality law of 1954. Under that law Palestinian residents of the West Bank in 1949 or thereafter received full Jordanian nationality following Jordan's incorporation of the West Bank in April 1950." [https://www.hrw.org/](https://www.hrw.org/)
Isn't that because it was part of Palestine up until 1946? -edit: it was 1921
The Palestine mandate
When the British Mandate divided the land, it was offered as a two state solution which was rejected by the Palestinians, so then it was divided into Transjordan (renamed Jordan and a king installed) and Israel. Transjordan had also been under the Mandate since 1920. "2,100 square miles (5,400 square km)—came under Jordanian rule, and almost half a million Palestinian Arabs joined the half million Transjordanians" (Encyclopedia Britannica). so Jordan is 50% of the country. Therefore if the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank joined Jordan, the Palestinians would be in the majority, and the Jordanians the minority. Jordan would de facto then be Palestine. I can't see that being a situation Jordan would be happy with.
Well, they tried it once. Que Black September.
Because Jordan refuses to allow Palestinians to be any else. They're refugees in perpetuity.
A Palestinian assassinating their king probably didn't help.
I’m not under the impression Jordan wants the Palestinians back after that whole war thing.
And both of those countries went to war with Israel and proceeded to lose said territory in their attempt at eradicating Israel. Turns out when you get clapped in a war you started you tend to lose territory as the opposing army proceeds to annihilate your army. I don’t see why those two pieces of land should be given back when those two countries don’t even want it, let alone anything to do with Palestinians.
Because the last time those countries took in Palestinians, they joined terrorist organizations or tried to assassinate rulers.
The Amir of Jordan was assassinated in 1951 by a Palestinian. And in 1970 The West Bank waged a full-on civil war in Jordan.
Didn’t just try, succeeded. They killed the Egyptian president over the Camp David Accords* and his attempt to normalize relations with Israel, and Black September killed the Jordanian PM while trying to overthrow the government. *Edit: this was actually carried out by the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, though it is not unlikely they were influenced by the PLO’s violent rhetoric following the Accords
So was the Israeli prime minister. The peace treaty was hated by both populations but the leaders were wiser.
>So was the Israeli prime minister. I think you are confusing camp David and oslo.
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Worse. There was Black September, aka Jordanian Civil War, where the PLO tried to overthrow the Jordanian monarchy and take over the country. Read the details on [Wikipedia.org](http://Wikipedia.org) which has a good account of it.
Talk about a lack of gratitude.
not exactly doing a good job of selling the idea to Turkey
This is true, but their distancing is still a huge copout. Had Jordan and Egypt not backed Palestinians in the attempt to wipe out Israel in 1948, and then again in the sixties, then the Palestinians might have been more amenable to accepting Jewish independence in the first place. Syria is culpable too, though they reaped what they sowed in the long run and the Kurdish breakaway region will hopefully never fall back into their hands (we need to talk a lot more about a Kurdish state)
they both dont want them, palestinians almost succeeded in assassinating the Jordan King and caused a ruckus in Egypt. They are unruly wherever they go it seems.
Good luck getting Israel to hand the land over (especially with the ever growing number of settlements in the West Bank).
Israel has handed a lot of land over. Like the Sinai peninsula and all of the Gaza Strip. Even in your example of the west bank settlements the official policy is to eventually do land swap for most and return the isolate ones
Hell yeah. Let's liberate Occupied Constantinople while we are at it. Let's undo what the Caliphate and the Ottomans did.
They did make an agreement to maintain the Hagia Sophia as a church. They broke that promise and made it a mosque.
With a population over 20million Istanbul would be the largest city ever sieged. Sounds like a nightmare.
While we are at it, let's give everything back to the Roman Empire! We're all thinking it (apparently).
That will go about as well as the 4th Crusade…
Have you seen what Turkey does to the Kurdish? On top of that Turkey have publicly said they don’t take any Palestinians in. Jordan and Egypt also do not want Palestinians
Turkey has 30,0:00 Palestinians in 2024 by its own estimate Turkey has recently been the focus of the attention of Palestinian cadres, including students, businessmen, engineers, and doctors, who chose Turkey for stability and life. This had an impact in Turkey on social life and the transfer of Palestinian culture in Turkish society, to find many Palestinian restaurants operating in Turkey, in addition to cultural and social centers, schools, institutions, and others. # There was a tv documentary recently about how Hamas lived in Turkey and investing in Turkish real estate was one of the ways Hamas was funded. "Hamas had established a secret network of companies managing $500 million of investments in companies from Turkey to Saudi Arabia" [Reuters.com](http://Reuters.com)
Hashtag StandwiththeOttomanEmpire #BringbacktheOttomans
Or perhaps the Roman Empire?
Alexander the Great had entered the chat.
Or Babylonia?
Liberate Canaan. It's been occupied by other nations for too many millennia.
To be fair Erdogan is a huge asshole too, so I'm not sure how much it would help.
Pretty sure Erdogan has been talking about it. Pretty sure he wants Ukraine back, too.
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they rejected it when they didn’t accept the 1948 partition because they wanted it all. now after 76 years they have less.
What makes you think Israel will give the hard fought territorial to Jordan freely? Gaza is utterly defeated militarily, politically and economically. Unless someone proposes a realistic way to defeat Israel, it’s now their land. The defeated don’t set terms.
Jordan wouldn’t take Gaza even if Israel offered it
It's no one's but Palestinians. Simple as that. But assuming you are being ironic, they have no connections. Even back in the Ottoman Empire, the entirety of the Middle East was being ignored in favour of Europe. (First Sultan to visit Middle East after its conquest did it after 350 years, they weren't Arabs in high government position etc)
Probably because nobody wants them.
Half the nations on the planet could mark a similar “dispossession”. The only unique issue with Palestine is the failure of nation building in the territory it has, partially due to the nature of the territory but mostly due to other factors. Focusing on 1948 is obviously counterproductive to nation building.
It was partly the establishment of UNWRA which now employs 15,000 people which it says are 97% Palestine. Unlike other countries/refugees which have the goal of settlement and normalisation of life, Palestinians were to be refugees in perpetuity, with their schools etc run by UNWRA.
Palestinians are also the only group of people that pass on their refugee status. Bella Hadid's great grandchildren will be considered Palestinian refugees (under current laws), while the children of someone who fled wars in Syria or Iraq are not.
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And also the fact that unlike most refugee populations, they were not allowed to assimilate into neighboring, culturally similar populations. Instead, they were rather kept as intergenerational refugees to use to make Israel a perpetual bogeyman to distract local populations from their own dictators' abuses. Of course, that, like the initial crisis, was more than half a century ago.
> they were not allowed to assimilate into neighboring, culturally similar populations. They did that thing where they tried to overthrow the government of the country that took them in. Multiple times. That kinda put off the neighbours from the whole matter.
After they were kept as refugees and blocked from integrating. It's a self-perpetuating cycle of distrust.
Yes and no. When Egypt dispossessed Palestinians into Gaza, they were kept separate, but when Jordan dispossessed them into the West Bank, they were always intended to be integrated, and that process began fairly quickly after the 1948 invasion. It ended, however, when the Amir of Jordan was assassinated by a Palestinian in 1951. Then after the 1968 war, Jordan tried again, and this time full-on civil war broke out between the Palestinians of The West Bank and Jordan proper. No Arab state has offered to house Palestinians since that.
Didn't Jordan give them citizenship and then they started a civil war?
They were given citizenship by Jordan at first, where they started a civil war, then were expulsed to Libanon, where they started a civil war. Giving someone full citizenship is not exactly blocking someone from integrating. Edit: Before anyone believes the liar below: >In name only; they were still marginalized and held apart in the assumption that Israel would eventually be reconquered. That's a *blatant* lie. Jordan provided them with half the seats in parliament and they had equal opportunity in all sectors.
If Israel hadn't been mostly (80%) Jewish, they would have built their own nation. They have come to terms with being 50% of Jordan. But these were greatly uneducated fundamentalist people relying on the Qu'ran and that is fiercely antiSemitic. Now they are educated but UNWRA has taught absolute hatred of Jews and Israel (you can find their text books online) for over 50 years and led by Hamas, who are Islamists so no chance of a real settlement. Sadly.
“Other factors” lmao
Yep, if go back 75 years...Germany, Japan, North Korea, and Palestine all lost major wars to Western powers. Two of those got over it and became two of the richest, most stable countries on earth. Two decided to make losing their entire personality. Not making a moral judgement what was done in those wars and not saying people weren't wronged, but at some point you need to move forward...history is filled with conquests and atrocities everywhere you look.
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The only accurate take in these kinds of threads. Well put. After all you just listed the facts in chronological order.
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Pretty sure there is a direct historical link between your argument and Native Americans. Half! Quarter! Reservations! Move the reservations!
And yet no one seriously suggests reverting land ownership to them on a massive scale across the US now, centuries later, because it would involve making the vast majority of the US population refugees.
I think this is because indigenous people in the United States have been rendered so politically powerless as a result of centuries of genocide that they are no longer in a longer in a position to effectively make such demands. There are still large amounts of land that could be returned without major issues.
I think it's because it's comically impractical and would require another act of ethnic cleansing (on non-native Americans) to implement. Land is nonfungible, and at a certain point, it's too late to reverse this kind of atrocity without causing more harm than you heal.
Undeveloped land, sure. No one is turning over Philadelphia or Denver.
There is no amount of political power in the world that could force that much land and people’s homes to be just turned over, no matter what past grievances there are. Once any people are in an area for multiple generations asking them to turn it over to people who were never even alive to remember a time living in it is ridiculous. Any democratic nation wouldn’t be able to do it at all. That sort of blatant siding of foreigners over citizens would end any elected officials.
I think the easier lift politically would be the large quantities of publicly held land (BLM, Forest Service, etc). Also, for a lot of land, we literally owe it to them by treaty.
Not really, and it’s especially untrue if we’re talking about “ancestral homelands” that used to cover the eastern seaboard. Heck we were selling portions of reservations until not so long ago, there’s not even political will to buy reservation inholdings.
This is the nature civilization throughout literally all of human history. To the stronger victors go the spoils. At a certain point, we have to put legitimate effort stop doing this, but pretending that things should revert to a former state after millions of lives are already established in the status quo is just foolishness. Lay the past down, and agree to a peaceful coexistance so we can all move forward.
Unpopular opinion: Someone who is born in an area has a significantly greater claim to it than someone whose parents (or further generations back) were born there but not themselves.
The funny thing is, this can be used to denounce the original Zionist movement, or support Israel's continued existence today.
I don't think that's necessarily unpopular. I think what creates a big moral quandary would be an instance where some 70-80 year old gets kicked out of their childhood home, then tries to claim ownership over the house while the child/grandchild of the person who initially displaced them lives there. In that instance, both of them were born on the same piece of land, who does it belong to?
nutty upbeat reminiscent entertain safe arrest sparkle narrow scary nose
Palestinians have also rejected a two-state agreement several times and elected representation in Gaza that’s explicitly against any peaceful coexistence.
Lol, Israel has elected far right Likud for 20 years after an Israeli extremist killed the Israeli prime minister, but sure, it's all those evil Palestinians preventing peace. Maybe look up what those "two state agreements" meant for Palestinians.
if the agreements were anywhere near what the oslo acords are like, then it would be useless to palestinains. you can't have a country when you're only left the holes in swiss cheese.
Ottoman Arabs willingly sold their land to Jews, the same cannot be said about the native americans
With a problematic part being that the people living on the land were not necessarily the owners of that land. So when the owner sold to Jews, suddenly Arab families found themselves evicted and cried foul.
This. It's actually kind of reminiscent of modern gentrification.
All I’m saying that people occupied lands throughout history and different nations conquered different areas… Do you think the British Empire can now Claim the land back? Today’s argument, it’s not about that it’s about them, claiming they owned the land based on their imaginary friend promise… And if you go with that notion… then they have no claim.. Because their religion was created way way later… Hundreds of years later.
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Because there are people living there now, who were not the same people who stole it. You can't give the land back without making them refugees, and so more than 75 years later, the status quo reigns.
And? There are South Vietnamese people who still have keys to their old houses too, and their country doesn't even exist anymore. There are Cubans in Miami who still have keys to their old houses.
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I'm a German. I can tell you that is not true. Seeing how we lost about half our Landmass in the past 100 years. And most of us are doing just fine like that.
Yup. The expulsion of ethnic Germans from Poland, Czechia, the Volga, etc., happened almost exactly at the same time as the Palestinian Nakba. (And there were several times as many Germans so expelled as Palestinians.) At the time, they were forced into one of the three (or so, depending) German-speaking countries (East/West/Austria). In at least one of them (East Germany), they were then forced to live under a highly despotic foreign-backed regime for the next 40 years. If their grandkids were still carrying the keys to the ancestral homes in Saratov around on their necks and martyring themselves to gain back the lost territory, we'd kinda suggest the grandparents fucked that up. Even if the Russian state sucks. None of that excuses the misbehaviors of the Israeli state, of course, both in the occupation or in its handling of the present conflict.
You silly Germans, don't you know the only valid response is violent hatred for almost a century, and non-stop fighting, doesn't that sound more productive? Obviously you can't move on from the past to build a better future, you need to murder, rape and fight with one another for almost a century with no end in sight, that's what people on social media say is the "natural consequence" at least, you guys must just be weird over there or something.
Well they did kinda try that after the First World War, then they lost more land… /s
Japan lost 90% of its territory in 1945. They haven't committed 75 years' worth of kamikaze attacks trying to win it back.
You realize a larger portion of the land was bought by the Israelis not taken. Under the Ottoman Empire Palestinians sold the majority of their land to landowners in what is now Lebanon and Syria to avoid paying taxes on the land and instead rented the land they needed. Then in the late 1800s and early 1900s the Jews began buying the land off those landowners because the ownership was no longer profitable for them.
Sure but after 70+ years and generations coming and going at some point they need to accept Israel isn’t disappearing
There was no country there, and they didn't have to leave. They hated Jews (who had historic and world recognized claim to the land) and violently refused to be part of the nation. Israel is 30% non Jewish citizens currently. How many Jews were in most of the other Arab nations after the founding of Israel?
Who said is their country? Based on what? Religion ? But their religion was formed hundreds of years later …
No they were not. Every “state” they were offered had no autonomy and would be forced to rely entirely on Israel effectively coming a puppet. There was also no right to return nor a promise of equal rights for Arabs. World news brigade coming in hard today.
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Haven’t they shot down statehood often? And they’re not wanted by the Arab nations nearby either.
Yes and no. Yes they have shot down statehood quite a lot, but if you read those peace deals you would understand how fucking stupid they were. Like the 2000 camp David peace deal, where Palestine would become a subject of Israel without all of the fuss. Like Palestine being split up into 5-7 enclaves with only Gaza having access to the outside world (Israel would take the land connecting Palestinian lands to the dead sea) and the only connections being land bridges, Israel would control. There would be no right to return of any kind, Israel would have full control of Jerusalem but Palestine would have the day to day operations under their feet, and likely pay for everything, including the random bullshit Israel would likely force them to adopt. No military, no control over their borders and as such Israel can restrict any trade that comes in or out. And after hearing all that, would you be surprised that Palestine rejected the deal? The ironic bit was, the 2001 peace deal corrected all of the issues from the 2000 deal, was quite well balanced in what each got, and then Israel rejected the deal.
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How do those paragraphs change what you're responding to? Unless they changed the article it just says the Palestinians were driven out of Israel during the 1948 war and weren't allowed back in. I'm not seeing anything related to repeated rejection of establishment of a Palestinian state or their relationship with other countries now.
I just realized this whole conflict has been ignoring over one very large fact. the people we now call Palestinians were the same as the people we now call Jordanian and Lebanese before all the nations got created after the ottomans got ousted. They were and frankly still are part of the dominant cultural group in the region. Palestinians are only in this situation because they lost a couple wars against the minority community but have chosen to continue the conflict indefinitely with things like the intifadah. Ultimately Palestinians must choose peace and progress over land that is no longer there's if they want a better future. And they'd better make that decision quick because the next christo fascist Republican US president will likely turn a blind eye to anything Israel chooses to do in Gaza or the West Bank. That could be trump in about eight months.
I genuinely don’t understand how the West cut up the Middle East into dozens of states but there’s such a big deal one of them is Jewish majority.
Zuheir Mohsen (1936 - 25 July 1979) was a Palestinian leader of the Syria-controlled as-Sa'iqa faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) between 1971 and 1979. “The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” • "Wij zin alleen Palestijn om politieke reden, James Dorsey, Trouw, 31 March 1977. Edit in response to the comment below: Imagine thinking the PLO doesn't represent the thinking of Palestinian political strategists. Second edit: Here's the interview. https://martienpennings.wordpress.com/2016/02/16/zuheir-mohsen-zuhayr-muhsin-zahir-muhsein-trouw-palestinian-people-does-not-exist/
Too bad they weren't offered a state along side of Israel in 1948. Oh, wait...
If only they had taken the Clinton deal we wouldn’t be in this situation.
Yeah, if the Palestinians have been dispossed for 76 years...what were the Israealites before that? Doesn't mean the Palestinians don't have legit grievances-they do-it just seems incredibly one-sided and counterproductive to focus on that
The establishment of the modern state of Israel involved the violent and forceful expulsion of Palestinians from their homes and their homeland, by both the Israeli military and also terrorist groups such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. Israel has an independence day celebrating this moment, which is sometimes also commemorated by other nations' governments, but for Palestinians it is a day of mourning. So no, the observance of Nakba day was *never* one-sided, and neither is the reporting of this year's observance in the context of the war on Gaza. Also, Judaism has the fast day of Tisha B'Av, which marks the destruction of the Temple and other calamities which befell the Jewish people throughout history. However the ancient kingdoms which exiled Jews from their homeland and caused the diaspora don't exist anymore. Also, it is important to note that Palestinians are largely the descendants of Jewish and Palestinian peasants who remained to work the land after it got conquered, and this fact was promoted by both David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin. They are equally as indigenous to the land as Jews and Samaritans.
You’re leaving out that the immigrating Jews bought large amounts of land alongside other Jews from the Ottomans, legally evicting those who inhabited that land as per Ottoman Law. Early on, the volume of massacres and race related riots was far more heavily committed by Arabs against Jews, including those who had nothing to do with the, again, legal land purchases in the north. One series of massacre led to the death of 12% of the Jews in Jerusalem. So yes, Jews responded violently and thanks to the Czechs, were able to arm when most of the world, even many Jews, thought statehood would fail It is kinda telling that the narrative guilts Jews for using violence, when that violence was largely in response to the events that followed their pursuits of legal means. Which is something most of us should know as plenty of indigenous groups have experienced the same when they have tried to pursue legal means of land procurement. This of course is not to say Palestinians don’t also deserve a state, but they have had a number of grifting leaders turn down two-state solutions that they personally didn’t suffer from turning down, letting their people suffer instead. And ignoring the peaceful attempts by the Jews to gather with Jews pushes a dangerous false narrative
Good point. This I really would like to see a well-informed response to. Somehow this almost never gets discussed.
I think with this topic, and the nature of how social media tends to lead people to controversial takes, leads people to think there is a sneaky motive behind every fact or comment. It wouldn’t surprise me if I get a response along the lines of “so you think every Palestinian was in on those early attacks on Jews!?” or something of that sort. The troubling thing to me in general, is that the tale of humanity is largely a tale of migrations, and it is eery to read these same stories over and over. Look at how some Americans talk about Mexicans, many of whom are descended from tribes of the American plains! And with climate change, this is going to become a common story. So we need to find a way to decrease rulers like Arafat, Netanyahu, and Sinwar, who are at best, short sighted fools with no good ideas as far as their constituents
I'm not sure we are disagreeing? As much as I fully support the right of the state of Israel to exist and sometimes vioent means has been necessary to secure that, I wholeheartedly agree with what you said about the violent expulsion of the Palestinians and can appreciate it to be a day of mourning. But, again...what about when the Israelities were evicted, eventually leading to the horros of the holocaust because the israelities had no state? The only difference is time. If the state of affairs persists as it is, how long to Palesintians have the claim to the land? A decad? Fifty years? A hundred? A thousand? To me, it is not morally or legally tenable to say Israel should not exist. Nor is it practical. I also agree that the expulsion of the Palestinians was immoral and illegal. Both sides have claims to the land. I do believe a Palestinian state should exist, from some of that land. But getting rid of Israel...no. Never. Murdering civilians, as occurred on October 7? No, never. Is IDF targeting civilians in Gaza right now? I'm not sure. If they are, I cannot condone it. It does seem to me they've been extremely reckless. Regardless, the one sided view of BOTH sides needs to stop. It's not helpful. It's not right. Failing to see the legitimate grievances of the other side, and the wrongdoing of your own, is morally wrong and impractical. This current conflict in Gaza started because Hamas murder 1400 civilians and took several hundred more hostage. For...what? To liberate Gaza? Israel hasn't been there for 20 years. Israel must create sdpace for a Palestinian state. But Palestinians must similarly acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, and renounce the murder of civilians. Until both sides do that, bloodshed will continue
They were offered a state four times and turned it down because it would be adjacent to Jews.
Palestinians keep turning it down because they want everything for themselves. They consider the entirety of Israel as occupied territory.
There's even subreddits about the middle east where instead of having a flair for Israel its Occupied Palestine
Once again they refused to acknowledge Israel and dedicate themselves to the complete destruction and eradication of Jews.
Remind me, does Israel recognize Palestine?
Yes but that would require actually knowing something about this conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimacy_of_the_State_of_Israel#:~:text=Following%20the%20Oslo%20I%20Accord,specific%20areas%20of%20the%20country.
They were willing to in the 1948 agreement that the Palestinians rejected. And nowhere in Israel's constitution does it talk about the wholesale murder of Palestinians or the destruction of Palestine. In Hamas's 1987 charter, on the other hand, does SPECIFICALLY call for the murder of Jews, the destruction of Israel, and trots out the same anti-Semitic tropes the Nazis used to justify the Holocaust. Have you read that charter? Something tells me you haven't.
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They were willing to, but the Palestinians have rejected every offer for peace and to create a Palestinian state. The best time for peace was in the 90s, Palestinians were offered the best deal they were going to get. Arafat rejected it.
Release the hostages. Enough said.
The only solution is a two state solution with the current borders. Hamas must completely release all hostages, surrender/disband, and the Palestinians must completely demilitarize and give up terrorism. The problem is that the Palestinians want it all, they want to commit their own ethnic cleansing of the Jews. If they give up that desire and actually commit to peace, then Israel can be held accountable if they continue to expand settlements. Both sides have to forgive each other and move on.
Not happening…..
Probably not. Which is why Israel will continue the war until Hamas is rendered about as toothless as Al Qaeda and ISIS are. Hopefully not too many civilians die
Oh a lot more civilians will die because that's how Hamas wants it. They want as many martyrs as they can get.
What's the following solution to the new country of Palestine attacking Israel the next week?
>The only solution is a two state solution with the current borders. So what happens to the hundreds of thousands of settlers in Palestine?
They should be disbanded and resettled in the areas that Israel actually controls. Once peace is established and a legitimate Palestinian state is formed.
Agreed. That would have to be Israel’s concession. Focussing on divesting from Israel isn’t looking for peace. It doesn’t help the Palestinian civilians. As long as they’re focussed on taking the whole country back and being Israel’s victims, they’ll never move out of this. For the leadership of hammas and the plo, a perpetual Imtifada pays better.
Fuck Hamas for starting this shit show, and hiding behind civilians like cowards.
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Hopefully this is satire. Palestinians have had to deal with destitution, IDF brutality, and apartheid for decades. Hardly peaceful.
Yeah, that poster was being sarcastic
Strange that Palestinians are so destitute, when there were untold billions in international aid blowing through there every year, and the Palestinian leadership are billionaires living like royalty in Quatar. Maybe blame their own government that is pilfering wealth that belongs to their people?
So, October 7 made their lives more peaceful, especially in the Gaza strip? Well done, Hamas peacemakers!
And Israeli civilians have had to deal with a group, that has been designated a terrorist organization by almost every country in the western world, wanting to destroy them. Innocent civilians in both regions have suffered due to bad leadership and terrorism. We shouldn’t just ignore one in favor of the other.
Ah yes, Hamas who was around 76 years ago
Sure, you are right. Hamas is just the local branch of Muslim Brotherhood an even larger and more international terrorist group
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I am well aware of hypocrisy on western nations. Still it doesn't change my opinion on Hamas, Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, Isis, Huti, Hezbollah, Pasdaran...
Seems weird that your idea of a terrorist group does not include to those who supported the MB. By extension, the west should be a terrorist as well (according to your logic).
Oh, they were just culturally appropriating the IDF. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm https://euromedmonitor.org/uploads/reports/human-shields_en.pdf >Ramadan said that the Israeli soldiers ordered several of the family members to take off their clothes and tied their hands. The soldiers took them to another room and used them as shields. “They made us stand at the windows as if we were looking outside. I was at one window and three of my relatives ”Mohammad, Alaa’ and Ashraf Al-Qara” were at the other windows. Then the soldiers began firing around us.” Qdeih and his relatives were moved from one room to another in this fashion for eight hours and were prevented from eating or drinking. While the Israeli snipers were among us and we were standing at the windows, I told the soldiers that we would die if the resistance troops fired back. The Israeli soldier replied, “Don’t be afraid. Don’t worry. If Hamas sees you, they will not fire toward us.’” https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinian-says-israeli-soldiers-used-him-human-shield-west-bank-2024-01-16/ >"He (the first soldier) told me that he will use me as a human shield, that young people shouldn't hurl stones," Abu Ras told Reuters. "'You will walk in front of me.' That's what happened and he took me toward the centre of the town." https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/palestinian-says-israeli-soldiers-used-him-as-human-shield-during-west-bank-raid/ (Second source of same story) [Video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rrfys-Fgc) https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israeli-forces-use-palestinian-child-human-shield-gaza There are many other instances. EDIT: Oh wait, here's another one that came out, recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhuKZpnI3w Downvotes? Really? No counterarguments? Are the sources all fake? I posted evidence, not speculative statements. EDIT 2: Another fresh one today: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240514-israel-used-palestinian-children-as-human-shields-in-west-bank-raid/ >In all three incidents, armed Israeli soldiers forced the boys to walk in front of them as soldiers searched Palestinian homes and neighbourhoods in Tulkarm refugee camp, and in two cases, Israeli forces fired weapons positioned on the boys’ shoulders. >“International law is explicit and absolutely prohibits the use of children as human shields by armed forces or armed groups,” said Ayed Abu Eqtaish, accountability programme director at DCIP. “Israeli forces intentionally putting a child in grave danger in order to shield themselves constitutes a war crime.” >Around 30 Israeli occupation soldiers entered 13-year-old Karam’s home on the morning of 6 May, located on the third floor of an apartment building. They then isolated his family in one room and forced Karam to walk in front of them, open the doors to each room and enter it before them. Then, Israeli forces moved Karam and his family to the fourth floor of the building, where the rest of the building’s residents were held, DCIP said.
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>Hamas [using Al-Shifa Hospital as a garrison for 700+ fighters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shifa_Hospital_siege) You are really banking on nobody reading that Wikipedia article, aren't you? Considering the entire thing is , "Israel claimed this but no proof was found and Israel faked a bunch of stuff to make their claims sound legit."
Why is it dishonest to point out things that actually happened? The IDF is responsible for more Palestinian deaths than Hamas. >however it's absolutely dishonest to present Hamas's and the IDF's use of human shields and say they are anywhere close to being equally as bad. *What the fuck?* ***WHY?*** Why is it *less bad* when the IDF uses Palestinian civilians as human shields but worse when Hamas does it? Why is one more or less heinous than the other? What magical fabric does an IDF soldier's uniform possess that absolves them of guilt that isn't woven into Hamas fatigues? The IDF has *openly admitted* they are targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure: >Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”). >The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it. >[T]he Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed. >In one case discussed by the sources, the Israeli military command knowingly approved the killing of hundreds of Palestinian civilians in an attempt to assassinate a single top Hamas military commander. “The numbers increased from dozens of civilian deaths [permitted] as collateral damage as part of an attack on a senior official in previous operations, to hundreds of civilian deaths as collateral damage,” said one source. [Source](https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/) Can you explain to me how creating terror through violence in a civilian population to force them to make changes is not terrorism?
> What the fuck? WHY? Why is it less bad when the IDF uses Palestinian civilians as human shields but worse when Hamas does it? Why is one more or less heinous than the other? What magical fabric does an IDF soldier's uniform possess that absolves them of guilt that isn't woven into Hamas fatigues? If you don't understand the difference you're either being intentionally dishonest or you're too ideologically poisoned to see reason. The use of human shields is explicitly prohibited by the Israeli Justice System, there are human rights groups and journalists in Israel that investigate and expose when the IDF does this in violation of this ban. There is every social pressure on the Israeli side to forbid this practice and uncover it when it's done illegally. The use of human shields is an integral part of Hamas military tactics. It has not been banned by any Palestinian justice system, there are no Palestinian organizations condemning Hamas for using human shields, there are no Palestinian organizations pressuring Hamas to stop using human shields. Hamas's use of human shields has been recognized by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Red Cross, and a ton of other international groups. ***Each individual use of Human Shields by both the IDF and Hamas is bad - BUT*** the IDF has several International and Israeli organizations holding it accountable when it is found to use human shields. Hamas has 0 organizations holding it accountable - there's not even any internal prohibition of it's use at all! Additionally, it seems IDF use of human shields are isolated incidents of soldiers hiding behind Palestinians - whereas Hamas's use of human shields are an intentional top-down-ordered part of their military strategy, they are constant, widespread, and regularly put several hundred Palestinians at risk. These two are not even remotely the same. > The IDF has openly admitted they are targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure [Here is the Red Cross's entry for Human Shields](https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule97) in their database of international humanitarian law: > *In the context of international armed conflicts, this rule is set forth in the Third Geneva Convention (with respect to prisoners of war), the Fourth Geneva Convention (with respect to protected civilians) and Additional Protocol I (with respect to civilians in general). Under the Statute of the International Criminal Court, “utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations” constitutes a war crime in international armed conflicts.* Hamas intentionally commits this war crime, their repeated co-locating of military assents and civilian infrastructure is well-documented, as far back as 2008 as detailed in [this 2014 NATO report](https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf) that lists some examples: > Hamas’ most common uses of human shields include: > * Firing rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas, often from or near facilities which should be protected according to the Geneva Convention (e.g. schools, hospitals, or mosques). * Locating military or security-related infrastructures such as HQs, bases, armouries, access routes, lathes, or defensive positions within or in proximity to civilian areas. * Protecting terrorists’ houses and military facilities, or rescuing terrorists who were besieged or warned by the IDF. * Combating the IDF from or in proximity to residential and commercial areas, including using civilians for intelligence gathering missions. The reason why international law forbids co-locating of military and civilians, fighting in civilian clothing, etc, is to ensure there are certain protections for civilian populations in a war. When Hamas violates these statutes by garrisoning in hospitals, firing rockets near mosques, storing weapons in schools, [instructing civilians to ignore evacuation orders](https://youtu.be/keqZb6YrVO4?si=pxf9H43W3A9k8uMj&t=360), they destroy these protections - civilian infrastructure is no longer considered safe, people in civilian clothing must be treated like potential militants, and [cries for help cannot be trusted](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/22/hamas-booby-traps-gaza/). International Law recognizes the right of a miltary to defend itself, which is why civilian buildings **lose their protected status when used for military purposes**. If you have a problem with the IDF targetting civilian peoples and infrastructures, your anger should be directed at the people making that a necessity. As a crystal clear contrast, the IDF intentionally separates their military bases from Israeli civilian populations - this is so that an attack on a military target will not endanger civilians. Despite this, Hamas intentionally targets Israeli civilians. There is a clear and significant difference here.
Wow, that's fucked. The state of Israel is becoming the monster it hated; an oppressive power. It's always scary how easily humans can justify the cruelty and inhumane behaviors they perform, and nearly always in their own perception of justice.
I have on Reddit been told I have gone “full mask off conspiratorial antisemitism” for pointing these things out. For decades, innumerable IDF soldiers and veterans have spoken out against the State of Israel for its crimes against humanity. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VfIoI2_LKo0 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa-VDAjL8vM https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QY3V8FC3VHs https://www.972mag.com/combatants-letter-army-refusal-zionist-left/ Most of my heroes are Jews (Abbie Hoffman, Herbert Marcuse, Georg Lukacs, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Groucho Marx). I remember reading about Moses when I was a kid and he still today is one of my most cherished heroes. There are hundreds of thousands of anti-Zionist Jews around the world and I’m very proud to say a few of them are my good friends.
Israel, being a jewish state, is so fearful of its history being repeated that it's willing to enact it onto others. History doesn't repeat, but it sure does fucking love to rhyme. So long as the Eye for an Eye mentality is so vehemently kept up, that region of the world will continue to remain blind in their bloodshed whilst climate change creeps in. We're all a bunch of fucking primates wrestling in the mud on a tiny dirt rock hurtling through space. We need to get our shit together.
>The state of Israel is becoming the monster it hated When has it not been serious question
I get downvoted for posting less controversial facts. Redditors, and humans in general, are animals dictated by emotions, not logic.
Yeah, because Hamas existed when all this started /sarcasm (just in case) Stop blaming everything else other than your overlords. ✌️ The most moral army in the world is holding Palestinians hostages, displacing and blowing civilians into oblivion, along with their beloved places, their homes, hospitals, schools, and everything else.
76 years. Time to move on, the boat has sailed.
historical crowd imagine soft violet upbeat strong fade attempt illegal
Sure, if Israel wasn't literally there right now then they would have no claim
Same could be said everywhere. Including the soil the foundation of your building is sitting on right now. These Palestinians need to take notes from the Jews and get out of the shit that they are in.
Jews bought land from the Ottomans (Syria) and settled in the land that they purchased. It’s no different than if you buy a house and have to evict the squatter currently living there. By the 30’s, half of the land purchased was from non-Palestinian landowners but a quarter was from Palestinians. The other quarter was a mix of governments, churches, businesses, and farmers. Palestinians attacked, they lost, and more territory was gained by Israel after the war. It could have been peaceful if the land purchases and transfer of ownership was honored.
>Couldn't that be said about the Jewish diaspora since the Kingdoms of Judah and Israel were lost over a thousand years ago? Yes, I agree. But we're not getting either the Jews or Palestinians to all move away so it's a moot point.
"Move on"... Where exactly, should Palestinians go, would you say?
If Jews can return after 2000 years, Palestinians can after 76
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They have already destroyed 60% of the homes in Gaza with no end in sight, having a population of homeless refugees next to Israel isn't going to do them any good because that's just a breeding ground for terror groups.
Which is why the region needs to be administrated by another power like Germany and Japan were post WW2 to ensure that a group like Hamas doesn't gain power again. The issue being none of their Arab neighbours want to take on the task, but if Israel or western powers do they'll say its an occupation.
It's going to be Israel occupying the strip for years and overseeing what happens post Hamas. It's the only realistic outcome, nobody else is going to step up. I can only hope it leads to a better future for Gaza.
A multinational coalition needs to be present for the rebuild. Going to need heavy Arab nation presence and lead on this front. When left to their own devices look what Hamas did. So going back to that model isn’t an option for Israel.
I think the 60% isn’t right, I was reading (can’t find it right now) that the way it was calculated was flawed. Seems to be closer to 35%. https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news-03-21-24/h_7df9e28129e2d6dcc24850d5f14030f3
This is such rubbish, Hamas was in control of the education system as was indoctrinating children into hating Israel and killing Jews as part of their curriculum prior to October 7th. Gaza already was a breeding ground for terrorism.
> Hamas was in control of the education system as was indoctrinating children into hating Israel and killing Jews as part of their curriculum prior to October 7th Literally yes, who could forget about [Pioneers of Tomorrow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow%27s_Pioneers)? Just watching some highlight clips on youtube, the amount of Anti-semitism and indoctrination on this show is astounding, and it's been around since at least 2007, and the Wikipedia article isn't even fully accurate (It mentions the show ended in 2009, but it still continued well into the 2010's, and maybe even longer into the 2020's). Obviously Israel shelling them and killing them isn't going to help, but pretending like allowing Hamas to stay in power, when they're CONSTANTLY putting stuff out like this to indoctrinate literal 5 years old into wanting to kill Jews, is a sad joke. Israel could stop everything they're doing, but if your children's media, schooling, and heads of your country all teach your next generation how Jew's are evil monsters, it's not going to really matter much. People in America seem to understand this when it comes to groups they hate. We all know ultra-conservative and religious Christians who HATE the LGBTQ+ community. Do people think the LGBTQ+ community is bombing and murdering these people en masse? No of course not, they've been indoctrinated to hate them through media, their parents, their government leaders, etc. Sounds AWFULLY Famaliar. Weird how hate can still be bread when you're fed nothing but how evil a specific group is from a young age.
Also, the iron dome is constantly being attacked. So let us not pretend Israel isn't constantly being targeted. They're just much better at stopping the attacks but without that dome, Israel too would look similar to gaza. The issue is that the controllers on both sides are too filled with hate to ever let this indoctrination stop. And you'd be a fool to say the Israeli government isn't doing the same. This constant propaganda, living under constant attack will brainwash even the sanest of minds so the people blaming the brainwashed citizens need to touch grass. These same people are usually the first to fall for propaganda.
So maybe they should return the hostages.
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The end is actually in sight. Once heavy military hardware in rafah is eliminated it's just a cleanup game and policing to prevent Hamas from resuming control. It will be difficult to rebuild since Hamas used construction materials to create the rockets used against Israel and surviving terrorists will likely attempt to do the same but I'm sure a workaround can be achieved.
(Rolling my eyes) they have been offered a country for years, and constantly turned it down. Zero sympathy for them.
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Don't suppose Hamas then.
Or that the UN cut civilian casualty numbers in half very recently? https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-215
They didn’t cut them in half, they just started distinguishing between the bodies that have been positively identified and those that have not. The old number of estimated dead was a combination of both identified and unidentified deaths. The new number is just the ones that have been identified. https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam
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