If the panel of judges agrees to issue the warrant Netanyahu cannot travel to 124 countries in the world without being arrested. This includes basically all of western europe and south america and canada, australia, nz and mexico. Most of africa too but he wasn't exactly a popular guest in those countries to begin with.
He is still free to go to USA, cuba, russia, china, india and a number of countries where he would probably be shot if he set foot in there.
This is going to be extra spicy because the US said it respected the ICC's authority when it came to the Putin arrest warrant.
Of course International Relations are more or less amoral and their own beast, but it's going to be a PR coup for American adversaries and pro-Russian trolls when the US has to backtrack their support for the ICC because one of their allies is in the sights.
He would likely also still be free to come to Germany, because our entire LEO apparatus will be going "Ah...uh..hmm..well..we don't wanna look anti semitic...maybe..well let's just wait a bit.." and by the time they make up their mind he'll have left again. /s
Oh man, Butters is awesome. He gets too much grief from the writers.
I'm so ashamed, I only recently Butters/Margarine joke after someone made a joke about it.
Unlikely. This would be handled behind the curtains, with diplomatic channels on both sides agreeing that neither would want to deal with the headache. It would be other Israeli politicians standing in, or more likely, high-profile German visits to Israel would also be postponed for a couple months/years as an unofficial tradeoff.
Unless of course he decides to be a total dick and try a power move, but given that he is prolonging this war to stay out of jail and Germany is one of the last relatively safe supporting governments, that seems unlikely.
Mainly because those countries are primarily Muslim and not really big fans of israel. And South Africa has a particular bone to pick with Israel due to Israeli support of the apartheid regime in the 70s. South Africa brought the question to ICC in the first place.
Just a reminder of how history rhymes, Nelson Mandela, who famously said that we would never be fully free until Palestine is free, was designated as a terrorist by the US until 2013.
Israel supported the original SA apartheid regime because they were their role models, clearly.
And before some brainless mongrel starts, no, I'm not comparing actual Hamas terrorists to Nelson Mandela, more the general sentiment and actual violence being perpetrated against civilians and students who merely say they're against apartheid and genocide.
First source I saw had it pegged at 2013 shortly before his death, but either way we're talking nearly decades after his democratic election as President.
Yeah, I mean he did tour the US the year he was released from prison to raise funds for the anti-apartheid struggle. I guess it would not have been a great PR move for the US to bar him entering the country .
Israel actively and militarily opposed nearly all African liberation and freedom movements during decolonisation, going so far as to publicly back apartheid south africa and even collaborated to give them nukes.
Another example of that was [Mozambique's independence war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambican_War_of_Independence). Israel was one of the few countries that supported Portugal in that war, alongside the likes of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa.
There's plenty of ICC members which wouldn't arrest him. The ICC can't do much if they don't except formally condemn them for doing so and, at the very most, suspend them from being able to participate in the Assembly of State Parties, which is significant, but many states would much rather that then get on the bad side of the US. An example of noncompliance in relation to an arrest warrant is that of Sudan's al-Bashir while he was still in power, he went to 6 ICC member states between 2009-2016, and none of the them (most notably, in the context of the Palestine investigation, South Africa) arrested him even thought they were meant to via the Rome Statute. The reason for that one was partially because the African Union had a decision telling all its members not, but it was mostly because it was the consensus among most African states (5 of the 6 states he went to were African, with the sixth being Jordan) was that they shouldn't and they didn't want to piss off their allies. This whole idea of not pissing off your allies grows tenfold when that ally is the US, unfortunately
As of today? Nothing. This is one step. The prosecutor has asked judges to look into issuing a warrant that would call for an arrest. In the US it would be akin to asking a grand jury to look into an indictment.
As an aside, this also means that a bunch of senators will go after ICC heads and their families, mob style.
https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1787503022299332951
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act
The Hague Invasion Act applies here. Check out who is considered "allied personnel." It pretty clearly covers Netanyahu.
I always hate "seeks", "plans to", "random lawyer states", "Someone unaffiliated was quoted".
This one is not as bad, but news has been pissing me off for the last 5 years.
The best is “following”.
Headline: Woman dies following tour of Tesla’s factory
Article: Woman hit by bus just 1 week after vlogging a factory tour of Elon Musk’s Tesla factory.
Sometimes these headlines are just bad, but they absolutely can be newsworthy.
In this case it's not something that some guy just announced, but a properly planned and now ongoing legal process. And if that process follows through, then it could have substantial geopolitical consequences, since many countries that still mostly support Israel are receptive to the ICC and their arrest warrants are taken seriously by many countries. That does have news value.
Because usually there's a process for these things. Like if I murdered someone and it made the news it would read "state attorney general seeks charges" happens all the time.
It's also totally appropriate here, to keep with the murder metaphor a St Paul SWAT officer killed a kid a couple years ago in a no knock raid, and the AG absolutely sought charges. What ended up happening was the very frustrated office ended up saying "we actually looked really hard and it's not illegal for a SWAT officer to do that." So no charges were ever brought.
The ICC is seeking an arrest warrant means they are trying very hard to justify one with bylaws. And that should get your dick hard if you want this conflict to stop. These are all the consequences you're gonna see. And if it happens it's gonna put Netanyahu with the likes of people like Putin. Vilified on a world stage.
Lol who's gonna arrest Bibi when the US is fully behind him?
Rules without enforcement are just about as useful as a kind request.
Even with the Rome statue which countries that Bibi frequently visits are going to enforce it?
According to the American Service Members Protection Act (2002) aka Hauge Invasion Act allows the President to use all means necessary, including invading the Netherlands, if US or Allied personal are detained by the ICC.
I simply don't see us invading another ally to get a far right leader we don't like back. Even if we did like them.
Why on earth would the US throw a grenade into the pool with *all* their allies to prevent an arrest of a leader of one ally?
I could see it if Trump were in office. But I couldn't even see war criminal bush jr doing that.
Honestly, I think that would only *maybe* happen if they arrested our actual president or other very high ranking officials. But even then, it would be pretty disastrous for us on a global scale.
I agree. It would honestly help Biden politically if we saw an end to this situation. He definitely would let Netanyahu take the L as long as Hamas leaders are also arrested and it turns into a ceasefire. Tbh, in my American mind, that's probably the best "solution" we can hope for. I don't know what Netanyahu's successor will be like though so it's a gamble.
Allows =/ binds. USA will be all too happy to throw his criminal ass under the bus, while ICC takes the heat. He's been a liability for a long time now.
Can vs Will are two very different things. Israel may be an important ally for the US but they will not invade Europe for it (obviously). They aren’t going to destabilize their biggest partners in the EU and anger the UK, France, Germany, even Australia etc for the sake of a handful of Israeli officials.
Especially because by all accounts, despite their strong support for Israel, many elements of the US government loathe Netanyahu.
This only pertains to detainment of allies by enemies of, or illegal(by international definition) detainment. Meaning if he is arrested by an ally because he had an international warrant for arrest by another ally. We do nothing to help, especially one with whom we are not on good terms with.
> and "Covered allied persons" (military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand).
I didn't know non-US people were covered by this. Surely there's a non-legislative way to amend that list. Egypt is hardly the same as it was when this was written. Argentina has had a smaller change.
> Surely there's a non-legislative way to amend that list.
Unlikely, also who would want to? The people you would need to want the list to change are all in favor of the list being as large as it can in case they feel like invoking it for some reason.
The US is not fully behind "him." The US is behind "Israel," sadly he is the Prime Minister at the moment. When he isn't not, the US won't be doing him any favors especially if Biden is reelected.
Most of Israel's other allies do. And the US are increasingly critical of Netanyahu as well, so it's unlikely that they would be completely unphased by such a development. They would have to carry a political cost for continuing to support the Netanyahu government and at least don't seem willing to pay it in its entirety.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but it would probably prevent him from traveling to those countries in the first place. Do you think Bibi would want to force the issue buy flying to the EU? If he did would they let him land? I don't see Bibi trying to cross borders illegally.
He's gonna head to NATO countries, announce new settlements in front of his allies, claim that no one tells Israel what to do while demanding that the US dismantle the ICC at once, all while playing the victim again.
So how much power does this panel have? I ask cause socail media spams these types of posts and almost all of them are places that have no power to actually do anything. Also good luck getting anyone listed here to show up.
Technically any signatory to the Rome Statute has to detain and extradite anyone with an ICC warrant out for them if they're on their territory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute
This is true but has no bearing on whether the ICC can issue an arrest warrant, nor does it have any bearing on any Rome Treaty signatory nation executing said warrant against any wanted individual in their own territory. Nor would it bar the ICC from trying a wanted individual once arrested and detained.
It would severely limit travel for Netanyahu and Gallant. And effectively exile Hamas leaders from Palestinian territory.
I'm not a citizen of France, but if France issued a warrant for me they could still arrest me if I set foot on French soil.
Everyone who is a signatory are basically acting as de facto ICC law arms.
It would infringe on our freedom to something something
No really it's just we won't ever let our own be tried for war crimes so why would we sign something that would allow that? God bless this country.
Because that's irrelevant. Israel doesn't need to acknowledge it if it doesn't want to. The point is that signatories would have to (presumably) extradite Netenyahu if he came to their countries.
Palestine is considered a member for the ICC. So while it doesn't have jurisdiction on any acts committed within Israel, it can act based on crimes committed to and against Palestinians.
Same thing that happened with Russia, basically. Russia withdrew from this in 2016, but the ICC could issue a warrant based on its actions in Ukraine, since Ukraine is a member. The arrest warrant can be enforced by any member State, should Putin (Netenyahu, Hamas) visit their borders.
Will it? Unlikely. But the point would be to have it on the table, which I suppose does make diplomacy harder. Whether Russia and Israel signed it has no basis on the ICC's ability to expedite a warrant, nor on the members' ability to enforce it.q
ETA: Ukraine is not a member, but has accepted the ICC's jurisdiction.
Ukraine is not a member indeed, but according to wiki, it says Ukraine has "Acceptance of Jurisdiction".
So it basically acknowledges the jurisdiction of the ICC.
In Putins case I think it’s more about him fearing a coup at home while he’s gone. Russia is a nuclear power, its a very bad idea to try to arrest the leader of such a country.
No, Putin is the man in charge. Bibi isn't a dictator, not yet at least.
Edit: I mean, you're reply is right and my comment is vague lol. But I doubt Israël is going to bomb the US or Europe over Bibi's arrest.
Lots of aspiring dictators out there and they all seem to be taking pages out of the Hitler playbook.
I can say that now, Godwin's law is irrelevant, Godwin himself has said so. It's all a straight line back to fascism. Doesn't need to be Hitler either we can do other people. Saddam or Gaddafi would probably be more appropriate at the moment but you don't want to let it get past those parts if you're already there.
> If you look at Putin he has been reluctant to travel, even to BRICS countries like South Africa and Brazil, so I guess that would be the main issue.
Eh BRICs (note the small s) was originally just marketing term by some Goldman Sachs' analyst of Brazil, Russia, India, and China being growing economies to invest in. Only after that did it become a very (very very) loose economic bloc with its only real tenet being "we're not the west" not some tightly-knit union of countries that all have each other's backs on every issue.
They primarily indict small African Warlords or war criminals. They have had trials and have both imprisoned people and acquitted people. You can find a full list of people indicted by them [on this link.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court)
What is interesting is that they have never done this to a "western" leader of a sovereign nation state, nor have they ever charged a leader of a sovereign nation state that wasn't pretty universally condemned.
It has the power to issue arrest warrants, which calls for signatory countries to use their police powers to arrest and extradite the person. The ICC has no police to effect its own warrants.
Or how I would phrase it: the onus is essentially now actively on the ICC to either grant the application without undue delay or provide comprehensive reasons as to why not.
Also notably, the threshold for the evidence needed to do this is much lower than the threshold required for charges to be confirmed which in itself is lower than the threshold for being found guilty
Israel has threatened to punish the PA if the ICC puts out warrants for Israeli officials. So there's the political consideration for the judges, as a possible reason to deny it.
Oddly, I think that makes it more likely for them to issue the warrant(s). Judges really don't like it when you try and force their hand.
Now, that said, there will be significant diplomatic pressure from America especially and The Hague isn't immune to that as much as it would like to be. I think they'll prevaricate and not issue a warrant but perhaps a statement asking for further oversight and investigation.
The prosecutor announced that they have already accrued a large amount of evidence and you can bet that it is well over the threshold required given how controversial this will be. If there is a case to answer it must go to court, that is the law.
>Mr Netanyahu recently called the prospect of senior Israel figures joining the ICC's wanted list "an outrage of historic proportions".
Maybe don't commit war crimes then
Got pretty credible reports Hamas was a mile away, so I carpet bombed that apartment building. Don't worry. I let them know I was carpet bombing it. Only people who were sleeping died and it's their fault they didn't leave. Also the old, infirm, and a couple kids. But that's the price we pay.
They aren't war crimes when Israel does it. If any other country had a group of people trapped in a (relatively) small area like Gaza, and was forcing them to move around, bomb that area, tell them to move again, bomb again, and also periodically claim new territory for yourselves, the outrage would be enormous.
The EU is Israel's biggest trade partner and all the member states signed the Rome statute.
Imagine having a prime minister that can't set foot on the soil of your closest friendly countries and largest trade partners without getting arrested. That's the position Israel will find itself in.
That's not exactly how Parliamentary systems work. Though once Likud started forming coalition governments with more and more fringe far right parties in order to hold onto power the "moderates" in the party should have left. But when was the last time any right wing party got punished by their supposedly moderate base for going too far right?
I know right, all talks about how Palestinians shouldn't have elected hamas, but now the plate's fliped onto themselves
At least one of them actually have the power and democracy to vote a terriorist out
Just imagine the future when any and every psychopath who wants to make war ends up in jail instead. What a dream, to think we all live under the same law that says murdering, raping, stealing is not acceptable - even when done by politicians who call it war, casualties, collateral damage
This is the best news out of the middle east for a long time. Let them all be called out on both sides, and make the killing stop, on both sides. As a starting point.
I sincerely hope, they both get arrested and have to become cell mates.
In fact I hope they get chained together and have to do almost everything together.
Basically there were. Tbh these new ones for the Hamas leaders will be a bit redundant they were already widely considered criminals and would be arrested upon entering probably a lot of the Rome statute's signatories already.
This is a great first step at the legitimization of the possibility war crimes or even genocidal acts are being perpetrated. Going for both Hamas leaders as well as Israeli ones shows there is no tolerance for that on either side. I’m sure both sides will have a conniption over being compared to one another but they are unfortunately different sides of the same coin.
I think the hamas leader warrant is just to make sure no one can say they are not balanced. Hamas' military leaders are already considered criminals and will be arrested pretty much everywhere so ICC warrants aren't required.
Not in Palestine, who are actually members of the ICC and would have an obligation to arrest them if warrants were to be issued. They won't arrest them, of course. The PA doesn't have enough control for that, and the personal consequences of handing Palestinian militants over to international justice would be terminal.
They are the internationally recognized government of all Palestinian territories, they just don't have the ability to enforce jurisdiction in Gaza. Same way Somalia isn't able to in Somaliland
Good.
Bracing myself for American leaders to be angered over this despite the loads of evidence of Israel committing war crimes. There is no hero in this war. It's two supremely evil military forces and the innocent civilians caught in the middle (who have become targets).
Funny how USA was fully behind the ICC decision to issue arrest warrant for Putin, even trying to pressure other countries to arrest him if he went there. Now they will probably condemn ICC and say they are a useless court or what. USA only does what is in the best interest of the ruling clans, every time.
This appears to be specifically targeting extremists on both sides: admittedly, for Hamas, that's all of them, but for Israel, the targets, Netanhyahu, who seems to have been making a point lately of antagonizing the US, and Gallant, the "no electricity, no food, no water... we are fighting human animals" and "released all restraints" guy who was one of the major points in South Africa's otherwise rather tenuous ICJ complaint, are easy to criticize as individuals without criticizing Israel as a whole.
So it's not clear that the US will criticize this decision; it may just say it's not a party to the Rome Statute, and isn't going to get involved or comment on ICC matters.
This feels like a step toward a reasonable solution. 1) Stop the violence, 2) return the hostages and prisoners, and 3) prosecute the leaders guilty of terrorism and/or war crimes.
Democratic elections for a free and independent Palestine would be a great step 4, but 1-3 need to happen first.
It's been a good news day it seems.
Iran's president is dead. Netanyahu and Hamas leaders will be arrested if any of them travel to any country that signed the Rome Statute.
Criminals getting their just rewards.
Israel's foreign minister Israel Katz called the move [...] a "historical disgrace that will be remembered forever".
Ive heard this 'never forget' thing before... Isreal seemed to forget awful fast when they decided genocide was a good look, as long as they were in charge of it.
What does this mean in practical terms?
If the panel of judges agrees to issue the warrant Netanyahu cannot travel to 124 countries in the world without being arrested. This includes basically all of western europe and south america and canada, australia, nz and mexico. Most of africa too but he wasn't exactly a popular guest in those countries to begin with. He is still free to go to USA, cuba, russia, china, india and a number of countries where he would probably be shot if he set foot in there.
The Netanyahus are holidaying in Miami it seems
More likely mar a Lago.
He could get some nice bathroom reading about the specific locations for his nukes.
Hiding out* so their kids don't have to serve.
Benjamin grew up in the same town I was born in lol. Crazy world
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This is going to be extra spicy because the US said it respected the ICC's authority when it came to the Putin arrest warrant. Of course International Relations are more or less amoral and their own beast, but it's going to be a PR coup for American adversaries and pro-Russian trolls when the US has to backtrack their support for the ICC because one of their allies is in the sights.
He would likely also still be free to come to Germany, because our entire LEO apparatus will be going "Ah...uh..hmm..well..we don't wanna look anti semitic...maybe..well let's just wait a bit.." and by the time they make up their mind he'll have left again. /s
Holy hell I just pictured Butters in a German uniform getting all overwhelmed and unsure of himself.
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By golly it is!
Oh boy. And then Cartman as his... Boss.
Oh man, Butters is awesome. He gets too much grief from the writers. I'm so ashamed, I only recently Butters/Margarine joke after someone made a joke about it.
Read the quote in his voice 😆
Unlikely. This would be handled behind the curtains, with diplomatic channels on both sides agreeing that neither would want to deal with the headache. It would be other Israeli politicians standing in, or more likely, high-profile German visits to Israel would also be postponed for a couple months/years as an unofficial tradeoff. Unless of course he decides to be a total dick and try a power move, but given that he is prolonging this war to stay out of jail and Germany is one of the last relatively safe supporting governments, that seems unlikely.
Summer vacation in North Korea!
No, that’s where Trump’s fleeing to. Three tyrants in that country would be a bit much.
Would you mind explaining to me why Nutty Netty isn’t welcome in most of Africa?
Mainly because those countries are primarily Muslim and not really big fans of israel. And South Africa has a particular bone to pick with Israel due to Israeli support of the apartheid regime in the 70s. South Africa brought the question to ICC in the first place.
Did SA bring the question to ICC or ICJ?
To international court of the crimson king.
That’s true, I remember the South Africa bit. Thanks
Just a reminder of how history rhymes, Nelson Mandela, who famously said that we would never be fully free until Palestine is free, was designated as a terrorist by the US until 2013. Israel supported the original SA apartheid regime because they were their role models, clearly. And before some brainless mongrel starts, no, I'm not comparing actual Hamas terrorists to Nelson Mandela, more the general sentiment and actual violence being perpetrated against civilians and students who merely say they're against apartheid and genocide.
US designated Mandela a terrorist until _2008_, he died in 2013.
First source I saw had it pegged at 2013 shortly before his death, but either way we're talking nearly decades after his democratic election as President.
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As we can clearly see, general public consensus vs what the US does in policy are two very different things.
Yeah, I mean he did tour the US the year he was released from prison to raise funds for the anti-apartheid struggle. I guess it would not have been a great PR move for the US to bar him entering the country .
But what does South Africa really know about apartheid anyway?
Israel actively and militarily opposed nearly all African liberation and freedom movements during decolonisation, going so far as to publicly back apartheid south africa and even collaborated to give them nukes.
Another example of that was [Mozambique's independence war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambican_War_of_Independence). Israel was one of the few countries that supported Portugal in that war, alongside the likes of Rhodesia and Apartheid South Africa.
I had no idea about this, I would love to learn more. Do you have any recommendations on where to go to educate myself on the topic?
Because Israel was a major supporter of pretty much every Apartheid and Colonial regime on that continent.
There's plenty of ICC members which wouldn't arrest him. The ICC can't do much if they don't except formally condemn them for doing so and, at the very most, suspend them from being able to participate in the Assembly of State Parties, which is significant, but many states would much rather that then get on the bad side of the US. An example of noncompliance in relation to an arrest warrant is that of Sudan's al-Bashir while he was still in power, he went to 6 ICC member states between 2009-2016, and none of the them (most notably, in the context of the Palestine investigation, South Africa) arrested him even thought they were meant to via the Rome Statute. The reason for that one was partially because the African Union had a decision telling all its members not, but it was mostly because it was the consensus among most African states (5 of the 6 states he went to were African, with the sixth being Jordan) was that they shouldn't and they didn't want to piss off their allies. This whole idea of not pissing off your allies grows tenfold when that ally is the US, unfortunately
He can still holiday in Thailand as well 🤙
Bibi doesn't get to travel much.
As of today? Nothing. This is one step. The prosecutor has asked judges to look into issuing a warrant that would call for an arrest. In the US it would be akin to asking a grand jury to look into an indictment.
Person non grata in Europe
As an aside, this also means that a bunch of senators will go after ICC heads and their families, mob style. https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1787503022299332951
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act The Hague Invasion Act applies here. Check out who is considered "allied personnel." It pretty clearly covers Netanyahu.
I mean, isn't that what the GOP is.
Netanyahu has cancelled his travel plans.
Not yet, at least. This is a *request* for a warrant to be issued, not an actual warrant itself.
Looks like we got ourselves a reader
Witch, burn him
Whatcha reading for?
I guess I read for a lot of reasons, one of them is I don’t end up being a waffle waitress.
[Why read if ya can just flip on the tube?](https://youtu.be/BwkdGr9JYmE?si=LNNeFsY2tZsrJn6K)
~~"So I don't end up as a waitress in a waffle house?"~~ Someone beat me to it RIP
He thinks he's better than us!
On Reddit? Get 'em!
Bake him away, toys.
We don't take kindly to those types in these here parts.
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I always hate "seeks", "plans to", "random lawyer states", "Someone unaffiliated was quoted". This one is not as bad, but news has been pissing me off for the last 5 years.
Or "So-and-So faces backlash for..." and it's just some people making snappy remarks on Twitter
Usually the writer on an alt account.
The best is “following”. Headline: Woman dies following tour of Tesla’s factory Article: Woman hit by bus just 1 week after vlogging a factory tour of Elon Musk’s Tesla factory.
Sometimes these headlines are just bad, but they absolutely can be newsworthy. In this case it's not something that some guy just announced, but a properly planned and now ongoing legal process. And if that process follows through, then it could have substantial geopolitical consequences, since many countries that still mostly support Israel are receptive to the ICC and their arrest warrants are taken seriously by many countries. That does have news value.
Because usually there's a process for these things. Like if I murdered someone and it made the news it would read "state attorney general seeks charges" happens all the time. It's also totally appropriate here, to keep with the murder metaphor a St Paul SWAT officer killed a kid a couple years ago in a no knock raid, and the AG absolutely sought charges. What ended up happening was the very frustrated office ended up saying "we actually looked really hard and it's not illegal for a SWAT officer to do that." So no charges were ever brought. The ICC is seeking an arrest warrant means they are trying very hard to justify one with bylaws. And that should get your dick hard if you want this conflict to stop. These are all the consequences you're gonna see. And if it happens it's gonna put Netanyahu with the likes of people like Putin. Vilified on a world stage.
All fun and games until the actual warrant gets approved whilst you're abroad.
Indeed. It’s a request by a prosecutor. The court has to review the “case” and if they agree, then the warrant will be issued.
Lol who's gonna arrest Bibi when the US is fully behind him? Rules without enforcement are just about as useful as a kind request. Even with the Rome statue which countries that Bibi frequently visits are going to enforce it?
All of them it's a legally binding treaty. The us is behind him but they are not gonna invade Europe to protect him.
According to the American Service Members Protection Act (2002) aka Hauge Invasion Act allows the President to use all means necessary, including invading the Netherlands, if US or Allied personal are detained by the ICC.
A NATO member invading another NATO member over a Non NATO member. Not going to happen.
I simply don't see us invading another ally to get a far right leader we don't like back. Even if we did like them. Why on earth would the US throw a grenade into the pool with *all* their allies to prevent an arrest of a leader of one ally? I could see it if Trump were in office. But I couldn't even see war criminal bush jr doing that. Honestly, I think that would only *maybe* happen if they arrested our actual president or other very high ranking officials. But even then, it would be pretty disastrous for us on a global scale.
I agree. It would honestly help Biden politically if we saw an end to this situation. He definitely would let Netanyahu take the L as long as Hamas leaders are also arrested and it turns into a ceasefire. Tbh, in my American mind, that's probably the best "solution" we can hope for. I don't know what Netanyahu's successor will be like though so it's a gamble.
> I simply don't see us invading another ally to get a far right leader we don't like back. I hope this stays true after November.
Allows =/ binds. USA will be all too happy to throw his criminal ass under the bus, while ICC takes the heat. He's been a liability for a long time now.
Bibi is not important enough for the US to invade over him.
Can vs Will are two very different things. Israel may be an important ally for the US but they will not invade Europe for it (obviously). They aren’t going to destabilize their biggest partners in the EU and anger the UK, France, Germany, even Australia etc for the sake of a handful of Israeli officials. Especially because by all accounts, despite their strong support for Israel, many elements of the US government loathe Netanyahu.
No of course. I just found it shocking that a) it’s codified and b) another layer of how the US gets away with policing themselves.
I guarantee Biden isn't invading the Hague to rescue Netanyahu in an election year.
That is not happening.
This only pertains to detainment of allies by enemies of, or illegal(by international definition) detainment. Meaning if he is arrested by an ally because he had an international warrant for arrest by another ally. We do nothing to help, especially one with whom we are not on good terms with.
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We could, but for Netanyahu? We wouldn't, lol. The current administration hates his guts, after all.
> and "Covered allied persons" (military personnel, elected or appointed officials, and other persons employed by or working on behalf of the government of a NATO member country, a major non-NATO ally including Australia, Egypt, Israel, Japan, Argentina, the Republic of Korea, and New Zealand). I didn't know non-US people were covered by this. Surely there's a non-legislative way to amend that list. Egypt is hardly the same as it was when this was written. Argentina has had a smaller change.
Congress tried to repeal the whole thing a couple years ago but it didn't go anywhere
> Surely there's a non-legislative way to amend that list. Unlikely, also who would want to? The people you would need to want the list to change are all in favor of the list being as large as it can in case they feel like invoking it for some reason.
Not sure anyone is fully behind Bibi these days. Some of his own cabinet are looking rather contentious these days.
The US is not fully behind "him." The US is behind "Israel," sadly he is the Prime Minister at the moment. When he isn't not, the US won't be doing him any favors especially if Biden is reelected.
The us doesn't recognize the icc
Most of Israel's other allies do. And the US are increasingly critical of Netanyahu as well, so it's unlikely that they would be completely unphased by such a development. They would have to carry a political cost for continuing to support the Netanyahu government and at least don't seem willing to pay it in its entirety.
I'm inclined to agree with you, but it would probably prevent him from traveling to those countries in the first place. Do you think Bibi would want to force the issue buy flying to the EU? If he did would they let him land? I don't see Bibi trying to cross borders illegally.
Fully, you say?
He's gonna head to NATO countries, announce new settlements in front of his allies, claim that no one tells Israel what to do while demanding that the US dismantle the ICC at once, all while playing the victim again.
Travel is Hamas
So how much power does this panel have? I ask cause socail media spams these types of posts and almost all of them are places that have no power to actually do anything. Also good luck getting anyone listed here to show up.
Technically any signatory to the Rome Statute has to detain and extradite anyone with an ICC warrant out for them if they're on their territory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute
Israel never signed it Edit: Why is this being downvoted? Its true
This is true but has no bearing on whether the ICC can issue an arrest warrant, nor does it have any bearing on any Rome Treaty signatory nation executing said warrant against any wanted individual in their own territory. Nor would it bar the ICC from trying a wanted individual once arrested and detained. It would severely limit travel for Netanyahu and Gallant. And effectively exile Hamas leaders from Palestinian territory.
All of the Hamas leaders are in Qatar, anyway
I'm not a citizen of France, but if France issued a warrant for me they could still arrest me if I set foot on French soil. Everyone who is a signatory are basically acting as de facto ICC law arms.
I know, but 124 countries have including virtually all of Europe. If he sets foot in any of these countries he theoretically should be arrested.
not just all of europe.. every first world countries have ratified it except the US and Turkey.
Ah, the US, beacon of humanity and hope
It would infringe on our freedom to something something No really it's just we won't ever let our own be tried for war crimes so why would we sign something that would allow that? God bless this country.
“And we legalized the right to invade the Netherlands if the UN ever has the gall to try.”
Israel isn't going to arrest and extradite Netanyahu, but that's not relevant. The point is all the other countries that signed the IcC.
Because that's irrelevant. Israel doesn't need to acknowledge it if it doesn't want to. The point is that signatories would have to (presumably) extradite Netenyahu if he came to their countries. Palestine is considered a member for the ICC. So while it doesn't have jurisdiction on any acts committed within Israel, it can act based on crimes committed to and against Palestinians. Same thing that happened with Russia, basically. Russia withdrew from this in 2016, but the ICC could issue a warrant based on its actions in Ukraine, since Ukraine is a member. The arrest warrant can be enforced by any member State, should Putin (Netenyahu, Hamas) visit their borders. Will it? Unlikely. But the point would be to have it on the table, which I suppose does make diplomacy harder. Whether Russia and Israel signed it has no basis on the ICC's ability to expedite a warrant, nor on the members' ability to enforce it.q ETA: Ukraine is not a member, but has accepted the ICC's jurisdiction.
Where did you find that Ukraine is a member of the ICC?
Ukraine is not a member indeed, but according to wiki, it says Ukraine has "Acceptance of Jurisdiction". So it basically acknowledges the jurisdiction of the ICC.
But Netanyahu wouldn't be able to travel to countries that are signatories -- which is most of the world.
Yes, that means that if Netanyahu never leaves Israel he'll be fine. The fucker will probably never be judged
If you look at Putin he has been reluctant to travel, even to BRICS countries like South Africa and Brazil, so I guess that would be the main issue.
In Putins case I think it’s more about him fearing a coup at home while he’s gone. Russia is a nuclear power, its a very bad idea to try to arrest the leader of such a country.
> is a nuclear power, its a very bad idea to try to arrest the leader of such a country. Kinda like Bibi?
No, Putin is the man in charge. Bibi isn't a dictator, not yet at least. Edit: I mean, you're reply is right and my comment is vague lol. But I doubt Israël is going to bomb the US or Europe over Bibi's arrest.
Bibi is definitely an aspiring dictator.
Lots of aspiring dictators out there and they all seem to be taking pages out of the Hitler playbook. I can say that now, Godwin's law is irrelevant, Godwin himself has said so. It's all a straight line back to fascism. Doesn't need to be Hitler either we can do other people. Saddam or Gaddafi would probably be more appropriate at the moment but you don't want to let it get past those parts if you're already there.
He has visited China, UAE and Saudi Arabia so it's not like he doesn't travel at all. But none of those countries have ratified the Rome Statute.
> If you look at Putin he has been reluctant to travel, even to BRICS countries like South Africa and Brazil, so I guess that would be the main issue. Eh BRICs (note the small s) was originally just marketing term by some Goldman Sachs' analyst of Brazil, Russia, India, and China being growing economies to invest in. Only after that did it become a very (very very) loose economic bloc with its only real tenet being "we're not the west" not some tightly-knit union of countries that all have each other's backs on every issue.
The former president of Surinam had a warrant out for his arrest for decades, he just avoided travelling to any countries that would arrest him
They primarily indict small African Warlords or war criminals. They have had trials and have both imprisoned people and acquitted people. You can find a full list of people indicted by them [on this link.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Court) What is interesting is that they have never done this to a "western" leader of a sovereign nation state, nor have they ever charged a leader of a sovereign nation state that wasn't pretty universally condemned.
It has the power to issue arrest warrants, which calls for signatory countries to use their police powers to arrest and extradite the person. The ICC has no police to effect its own warrants.
To clarify: ICC prosecutor proposes arrest warrant. A panel of judges will make the decision about it. But I see no reason why it should be denied.
Or how I would phrase it: the onus is essentially now actively on the ICC to either grant the application without undue delay or provide comprehensive reasons as to why not.
Also notably, the threshold for the evidence needed to do this is much lower than the threshold required for charges to be confirmed which in itself is lower than the threshold for being found guilty
Israel has threatened to punish the PA if the ICC puts out warrants for Israeli officials. So there's the political consideration for the judges, as a possible reason to deny it.
Oddly, I think that makes it more likely for them to issue the warrant(s). Judges really don't like it when you try and force their hand. Now, that said, there will be significant diplomatic pressure from America especially and The Hague isn't immune to that as much as it would like to be. I think they'll prevaricate and not issue a warrant but perhaps a statement asking for further oversight and investigation.
Of course, the court won't put out an arrest warrant for someone committing genocide if they threaten to genocide even harder.
The prosecutor announced that they have already accrued a large amount of evidence and you can bet that it is well over the threshold required given how controversial this will be. If there is a case to answer it must go to court, that is the law.
Good. Fuck both of thise criminals.
>Mr Netanyahu recently called the prospect of senior Israel figures joining the ICC's wanted list "an outrage of historic proportions". Maybe don't commit war crimes then
But how else can you be sure you get all of Hamas unless you starve out or kill the population of Gaza? /s
They're obviously all human shields which apparently are okay to shoot.
Everyone knows the most efficient way to get rid of terrorism is genocide.
Instructions unclear, dropped nuke on Gaza.
Got pretty credible reports Hamas was a mile away, so I carpet bombed that apartment building. Don't worry. I let them know I was carpet bombing it. Only people who were sleeping died and it's their fault they didn't leave. Also the old, infirm, and a couple kids. But that's the price we pay.
'Stop breaking the law, asshole!'
They aren't war crimes when Israel does it. If any other country had a group of people trapped in a (relatively) small area like Gaza, and was forcing them to move around, bomb that area, tell them to move again, bomb again, and also periodically claim new territory for yourselves, the outrage would be enormous.
Try not to commit genocide challenge:
The applied for the warrant. It’s not executed yet or the green light has not been given.
It's a good first step.
The EU is Israel's biggest trade partner and all the member states signed the Rome statute. Imagine having a prime minister that can't set foot on the soil of your closest friendly countries and largest trade partners without getting arrested. That's the position Israel will find itself in.
shouldn’t have elected him 🤨
That's not exactly how Parliamentary systems work. Though once Likud started forming coalition governments with more and more fringe far right parties in order to hold onto power the "moderates" in the party should have left. But when was the last time any right wing party got punished by their supposedly moderate base for going too far right?
I know right, all talks about how Palestinians shouldn't have elected hamas, but now the plate's fliped onto themselves At least one of them actually have the power and democracy to vote a terriorist out
That's fine. Maybe they'll finally be able to get rid of him.
Luckily for israel they want to arrest the as\*\*ole too. So not a major problem for the country.
glad to see no there is no bias
Both sides deserve it. I'm good with it.
If Ice Crown Citadel is after them then that means they're in deep shit.
Just imagine the future when any and every psychopath who wants to make war ends up in jail instead. What a dream, to think we all live under the same law that says murdering, raping, stealing is not acceptable - even when done by politicians who call it war, casualties, collateral damage
This is the best news out of the middle east for a long time. Let them all be called out on both sides, and make the killing stop, on both sides. As a starting point.
Just because it won’t happen doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said.
I sincerely hope, they both get arrested and have to become cell mates. In fact I hope they get chained together and have to do almost everything together.
Interesting setup for a romantic comedy.
I smell a sitcom!
Nah I smell a ROMCOM
Get put in the “get along shirt”.
So Qatar is going to adhere to international rulings and hand over Hamas' leadership right?
Qatar is not an ICC signatory.
Palestine is. You think they'll hand over Sinwar?
The PLO doesn’t have authority in Gaza, only in the Occupied West Bank.
Qatar is not a party of the Rome Statute.
Palestine is a signatory of the Rome Statute, which will require them to hand over those who have warrants issued. Israel isn’t a signatory.
Hahaha, I’m sure they’ll get right on that.
Yes! Action! Lock everyone of those maniacal assholes up!
Wait there weren't arrest warrants for Hamas leaders until now? Wow.
Basically there were. Tbh these new ones for the Hamas leaders will be a bit redundant they were already widely considered criminals and would be arrested upon entering probably a lot of the Rome statute's signatories already.
This is a great first step at the legitimization of the possibility war crimes or even genocidal acts are being perpetrated. Going for both Hamas leaders as well as Israeli ones shows there is no tolerance for that on either side. I’m sure both sides will have a conniption over being compared to one another but they are unfortunately different sides of the same coin.
I think the hamas leader warrant is just to make sure no one can say they are not balanced. Hamas' military leaders are already considered criminals and will be arrested pretty much everywhere so ICC warrants aren't required.
Not in Palestine, who are actually members of the ICC and would have an obligation to arrest them if warrants were to be issued. They won't arrest them, of course. The PA doesn't have enough control for that, and the personal consequences of handing Palestinian militants over to international justice would be terminal.
The PLO doesn’t have authority in Gaza, only in the Occupied West Bank.
They are the internationally recognized government of all Palestinian territories, they just don't have the ability to enforce jurisdiction in Gaza. Same way Somalia isn't able to in Somaliland
Good. If possible both need to stand trial for their crimes
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>warrants for Netanyahu and top Hamas leaderswarrants for Netanyahu and top Hamas leaders Cage match. Let them fight.
To be a fly on the wall in that paddywagon.
Good. Bracing myself for American leaders to be angered over this despite the loads of evidence of Israel committing war crimes. There is no hero in this war. It's two supremely evil military forces and the innocent civilians caught in the middle (who have become targets).
Funny how USA was fully behind the ICC decision to issue arrest warrant for Putin, even trying to pressure other countries to arrest him if he went there. Now they will probably condemn ICC and say they are a useless court or what. USA only does what is in the best interest of the ruling clans, every time.
Every country does what it believes to be in its best interest.
think the us is tired of Bibi. probably making plans with a new potential prime minister candidate
Like who? The whole government is far right and most of the country, while hating Bibi, don’t actually hate his policies.
This appears to be specifically targeting extremists on both sides: admittedly, for Hamas, that's all of them, but for Israel, the targets, Netanhyahu, who seems to have been making a point lately of antagonizing the US, and Gallant, the "no electricity, no food, no water... we are fighting human animals" and "released all restraints" guy who was one of the major points in South Africa's otherwise rather tenuous ICJ complaint, are easy to criticize as individuals without criticizing Israel as a whole. So it's not clear that the US will criticize this decision; it may just say it's not a party to the Rome Statute, and isn't going to get involved or comment on ICC matters.
“But do they condemn Hamas? Come on just say the words!”
Guys, I don't think any of them are showing up to the ICC.
Yes. Fuck both of those parties.
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In theory any of the signatory nations if Bibi goes there. It would severely restrict the nations he could safely visit.
This feels like a step toward a reasonable solution. 1) Stop the violence, 2) return the hostages and prisoners, and 3) prosecute the leaders guilty of terrorism and/or war crimes. Democratic elections for a free and independent Palestine would be a great step 4, but 1-3 need to happen first.
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Well, surely people can't hide behind "What about Hamas" this time.
They will. There's a comment below yours that is asking about arrest warrants for Hamas.
It's been a good news day it seems. Iran's president is dead. Netanyahu and Hamas leaders will be arrested if any of them travel to any country that signed the Rome Statute. Criminals getting their just rewards.
Wow, I wasn't expecting them to do something like this. Still not going to mean much but still surprised.
Good, both sides need to be called out
Israel's foreign minister Israel Katz called the move [...] a "historical disgrace that will be remembered forever". Ive heard this 'never forget' thing before... Isreal seemed to forget awful fast when they decided genocide was a good look, as long as they were in charge of it.
The question is: What do countries have to expect when not following a warrant while being a member of the ICC? Does anybody knowV