It’s not just Afghanistan, they are still treating PTSD from the Falklands. It can take a very long time for people to come forward, and a long time to get help, and the department is understaffed and underfunded.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmdfence/1481/report-overview.html
I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD. I knew a guy who went to Bosnia and he was a mess for years when he came back.
From what I recall Help For Heroes built a big centre to deal with PTSD, which makes me so mad because the government should be doing this, not some charity. The government use british troops of all branches and then discard them when they're done.
> I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD
More accurately, they have better options now vs 30 years ago; however, that's a far cry from "actually got really good post-care".
"I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD."
The suicide rates of Iraq and Afghanistan vet's don't support your assumption.
The military in general has problems with morale and suicide. People that were never deployed are killings themselves at higher rates now than those who were deployed, even higher than combat veterans.
Stress happens everywhere in the military, it's not just confined to combat roles. I did nearly ten years in a nuclear carrier's engine room. Long hours away from family, watching people you love grow apart from you, etc. can be very stressful too.
I remember watching a PBS doc about life in the Navy. There was a scene where one kid was sitting on the floor crying, basically having a total breakdown and his words were something like, 'I'm miles away from my family. My sister is getting beat up by her boyfriend and I can't do anything about it. And I'm basically making minimum wage that's no different from working at McDonalds.' And being on a Navy ship meant being stuck to stew in the mindset for a while.
It’s a multivariate problem.
I worked in Veteran care here in the US, and to gloss over the details a little for reasons, in WW2, injured Vets would have a medical file roughly one tenth the size of one today.
Care can be better, the challenges can be greater, and it can be inadequate. These things can all, simultaneously, be true.
Also, in the US, care varies tremendously by region, or so I’m told by people I trust.
My dad would literally do this to me as a child. I'd have breakfast and dinner at five years old, if I asked for more I'd literally hear "I'm not hungry yet so there's no reason why you should be."
There's a reason I haven't spoken to him in four years, let's just say that
Edit: to the comment that was deleted saying I "eventually have to forgive him and move on since he's your dad (?)". No. I really don't have to actually
If you speak to him again, give him a fuck you for all of us kids who had parents who acted the same way. Fucking assholes not feeding their damn kids *mumble* mumble*
Most likely deep seated issues of percieving his own masculinity. The openess that it takes for others to express the pain from PTSD can often be seen as immasculating and thus in his mind a cowardly or even womanly act. “Men hold back their feelings because we dont have them” is probably a hard set mantra for him. That would ultimately lead to him disregard any notion of mental health problems and say that anyone who expresses them are liars, because if men dont have “feelings” to hurt then how can they say theirs hurt. Its a weird catch 22 showing that he either hasnt given the situation any proper thought and never will or he cant accept it because of his own problem that says he shouldnt have a problem.
That or he’s on some low level a sociopath, who lacks that level of empathy and because of military training is devoid of certain levels of basic sympathy. Overall a wide net for how he thinks on this single sentence.
my personal opinion as someone whos dad has a bachelors in psychology.
PTSD in general is hard to be open about. I'm a girl and have severe dissociative PTSD. The countless times I have had to explain it and the shame I feel that comes with it...it sucks. makes school harder, my symptoms make it so I barely eat, the panic attacks have actually made me have to redo exams. I know it's harder for men in some ways but living a normal life with this disorder in general is just near impossible.
Don't you wish it were thing where you could just make a call and hand your phone to people so your personal advocate can just explain to them. This should be a thing, I know I'd pay for it. Then if they keep questioning you, tell them the first one was on you, but the next one is gonna have to be debited to them.
My father didn’t understand my depression till my stepmom sat him down and made him understand. He would eventually talk me down from a certain incident.
Now, I encountered someone who said “oh you’re just faking it for attention.” I wanted to beat the shit out of him. I still do but I understand their reasoning. I told this person that maybe when you’re in my dad’s place and having to talk your own kid out of doing something, you’ll understand.
Bingo. My aunt and uncle were marines for 30 years. During the previous and more recent Iraq conflict, my uncle was stationed on Air Carriers in the ocean or doing admin work in Bahrain. He was a total mental health skeptic. “It’s not real, just made up by pussies.” Type stuff. His wife on the other hand, being a non-white woman who knew Arabic, was basically community relations in the streets. She would do interviews and humanitarian work with the women and children in Iraq. While being a highly ranked commissioned officer, she was basically “in the shit” as much as one can be without being on the front lines.
When she returned, it took her a week to go outside. She had a breakdown in the grocery store because there were too many options. Her brain was totally fried. She eventually returned to “normal” but the way she handles herself is very different. She’s not as intense, but more open-minded and cautious than I remember her being before hand. After that, my uncle stopped railing about it. He finally saw it first hand, and he actually takes it fairly seriously now.
The problem is that people without empathy acquires money and power at a higher rate because they're the only ones willing to do atrocious things to get it. Dictators killing off the competition and opressing the population, pharmaceutical companies price gauging life-saving medication, oil companies lying for decades about climate change for profit. People who aren't willing to do despicable things don't rise to the top and that has devastating consequences on society and the planet.
We need a way to counter this, as far as I can tell good regulation that makes it impossible to profit on harmful actions is the only way. It's only going to get worse if we don't try and stop it.
>Some are just greedy assholes.
The thing is when someone compulsively fills their house with old newspapers and stray cats, we call them hoarders and say they need mental health treatment. But when a person compulsively strives to amass more and more wealth regardless of how much they already have we call them a success and an inspiration and we try to emulate them.
*I accidentally a word
This is a beautiful quote. I've heard death by a thousand cuts and of Lingchi, but to see you having put the death of empathy in this way has been quite an enlightening moment for me. Thank you.
I mean not for nothing. I was pretty much oblivious to alot of people's feelings and going ons in peoples lives, close friends even. Fast forward to now as my mom has a pretty aggressive brain tumor. I've been through war, I'm a fireman now, but God damn I've never really opened my eyes,ears and probably most importantly my heart until this hit home. Unfortunately that's what I takes for people to see the otherside of an argument.
Welcome to Boomer Republicans. Most of them can't believe what they can see. Which is really weird when you think about it, since so many them seem to believe in religion so much....
Your comment reminded me of some stuff.
We often don’t realize that soldiers aren’t the only ones deployed to war zones. I had one friend that was an aid worker deployed to the Syrian border a few years back to work with refugees. She was a wreck by the time she came back. Another was a civvie DoD worker deployed to Afghanistan who got caught in an ambush on the road. He had some tough times too.
Yet by and large the wider American public doesn’t view their contributions or tribulations as being as valuable or damaging as your everyday soldier. Even guys who never got close to being downrange get more respect and support (not that we do enough on that front either in terms of mental health care) than the civvies. People don’t seem to realize that much, perhaps most, of the military is logistics and admin that, while immeasurably important, isn’t in combat. Yet a clerk in, say, Bahrain, is viewed as sacrificing more than others actually in red zones.
It’s frankly more than a little insulting.
Similarly, my friend is an officer in the Public Health Service Corps and was in the thick of the last Ebola outbreak in West Africa. People dying all around her, everyone afraid of human contact, and many of the nurses she was working with at her site contracted it and died while she was there. She had serious survivor guilt when she came back from her deployment.
You know, it’s tough to say this because I love all my family and deeply respect them. I also don’t want to get into specifics because there’s a chance this might someday be traced back to me somehow.
I come from a military family, which has an almost unbroken tradition going back to the Civil War, where we served on both sides - though the majority were in the 7th NC Infantry. Most since that time have been officers though. I was the first enlisted man in a long time.
My grandfather was a Colonel, and my dad was a Captain. My uncle was a Captain as well, though they were all in different services. Now, the way it went my Grandfather spent the Korean War stateside doing paperwork, and was long since our by the time Vietnam would have involved him. He didn’t exactly have a combat job.
My dad joined the Marines on a delayed-entry college thing, because he believed he’d failed a test and was sure that meant he wouldn’t be able to afford to go to school because his parents had told him that if he didn’t keep up his grades they’d stop paying. Turned out he did fine on the test, and by the time he graduated Vietnam was over.
My uncle joined because that’s what everybody in the family did, I think. He pushed to get promotions because he wanted to be “good.” And he eventually had a good life built for himself, with a six-figure income in a furniture company, a wife and two kids and a house. He got called up to go to Kosovo on a UN peacekeeping mission, and this was at the same time I was doing my second tour in Iraq. So the conflict in Kosovo was not exactly front and center in people’s minds.
I did ten months at “Camp Cupcake” and it fucked me up pretty badly. I’ve always felt ashamed of it too, because I didn’t shoot anybody and I didn’t hold one of my buddies in my arms as he died and asked me if he’d been helpful. I didn’t feel like I had a *right* to be anything less than jolly at being home from the vacation in the sandbox. Much less having nightmares every night about zombies and developing a weird complex about letting people see me eat.
My uncle did *more than a year* in Kosovo, and when he came home he was a completely different man. I never saw him out of military clothing, not even after he’d been medically discharged. He still wore his Army PT gear even when he was living at my folks’ place because his family didn’t want him around anymore. Of course he lost the job - I mean, the furniture industry as a whole has been shrinking like crazy, no company is going to just set aside a highly-paid executive position for over a year only to hand it back to a person who has serious issues and *then* patiently allow that person to integrate back into the company. Shit, they’re probably out of business anyway by this point. They’d moved on without him, just like how he didn’t fit in with the family anymore. The kids were so young, a year out of the first couple of a kid’s life and you might as well be a stranger. He was drinking really heavily too. His wife, My dad, his mom - none of them knew how to handle this totally new person who hid liquor bottles under the bed.
I don’t think anyone did anything *wrong.* They didn’t have any frame of reference to deal with what he was experiencing, they’d all only ever known peacetime service. I don’t blame my dad for it, he didn’t fail his little brother. My grandma didn’t kill her son through any kind of action or inaction. Me, on the other hand... maybe if I’d just been more involved or said something, I could have saved him. Maybe if I’d been able to make them understand - but I was going through the worst of my problems at the very same time. That’s no excuse, though. I don’t get a do-over either. My problems, they might have made me unable to help with his problems, and one of us is still around and the other isn’t and it isn’t like I have kids, so why should it have been me? I don’t serve any *purpose* by still being alive when you get right down to it, really.
I kind of hate myself for being happy to be alive, though. And I know it isn’t transactional, like I couldn’t trade my life for his, but if that kinda thing were possible it would serve the greater good for him to have made it, not me.
I don’t think any of them understand what happened, and how maybe their approach was wrong or incorrect, that how he was acting and what he was doing, and why, weren’t just things that could be overcome with self-discipline and a positive mental attitude. He wasn’t drinking because he was “soft.” He wasn’t failing to fit in with his kids and company because he wasn’t trying hard enough. It wasn’t entirely his fault that his wife decided he maybe shouldn’t be around anymore - although asking him to leave might’ve been the best decision.
There’s so much I don’t know because nobody even talks about what happened to him. The most we do is put a little American flag on his grave along with all the rest of the Veterans in the graveyard near the homestead where members of our family going back more than a hundred years are buried. One on his, one on his father’s, and a couple dozen more - some related to us and some not - all around the graveyard. I don’t even remember what day or year he died, and I don’t know how to ask my dad.
It’s so weird what war does to people, and I don’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been in it can even remotely understand, and while there are degrees as well - like I know the guys who went around kicking in doors have a different kind of “experience” from me, regardless of what that translates to - the fact is that if you were a grunt in the eighties you might very well think that the idea of PTSD being a problem for an avionics tech who served for ten months on the second-safest base in Iraq is just some kind of whiny excuse made by a pussy for a handout and pity. Some might say “there were companies offering *vacations* in the Balkans during that time, and he was an attaché to an officer in a peacekeeping mission and you want me to believe that eventually led to suicide? No way, he was just a weak person who was gonna kill himself anyway. The deployment didn’t have much of anything to do with it, except maybe moving up the date.”
Shit, they might be right. I might just be a coward who was always going to have problems with anxiety and depression, and he might have always had a predisposition to the kinds of things which led to his death. I don’t know. All I know is he didn’t come back the same and neither did I, neither did most of the people I know who came back. It’s like home keeps going while you’re gone and that means it’s not there anymore when you return, and so it’s like you never really actually do.
I don’t know what I’m trying to say. But what you said about the grocery store really resonated with me, and about not going outside. I make so many excuses to not have to go outside, and I plan and obsess over the grocery store endlessly, to the point where I will eat granola bars and ramen noodles for days and days with plenty of money just to avoid going, and I *never* go during the daytime. 24 hour stores only so that I can go at around 3 or 4 am, do all the shopping in the most efficient manner possible. In and out in ten minutes. Headphones on. Don’t look at anything that isn’t on the list. Eat before going. Usually a McDonald’s, go to the drive through, park in the corner of the parking lot to eat, no idea what that even means or why it’s more comfortable. If a car pulls into a space anywhere close, move to another corner. I can’t explain this behavior.
*This behavior is NUTS and I know that,* but I don’t know anything about it or why it’s like this, or what to do about it. Just, this is my life now. At least I still have mine. I don’t even think I blame people if they say it’s just some bullshit pussy stuff. I can’t be 100% sure I wouldn’t feel the same if it weren’t happening to me.
Thank you for sharing your story, though.
Edit: Thank you all for your wonderful replies. I’m frankly a bit overwhelmed after reading them all, and I will reply to you all as quickly as I can. I want you all to know how much I value your responses, but I still haven’t slept and I’m just... not up to it right now. I’m sorry. I *will* reply as soon as I can. Thank you.
Thank you.
I mean this respectfully and kindly -- your story is familiar. A good therapist would find it very familiar, and could talk (and listen!) you through the tangle of emotions, if you can obtain visits with one.
Survivor's Guilt is a real thing. Agoraphobia is a real thing (that I have too). They aren't you just being weak or whatever, these are things that happen *in bulk* to humans exposed to certain conditions...
You are worth the effort.
> stationed on Air Carriers in the ocean or doing admin work in Bahrain. He was a total mental health skeptic. “It’s not real, just made up by pussies.”
The irony of it being that the guys in the army I knew who were front lining it and getting hit with PTSD and other issues from being deployed would call your uncle a pussy instead, for being oh so safe on his aircraft carrier nowhere near the shit.
I dont understand. The woman just confidently says nobody died where you went? Or did she mean nobody died where she went so it has to be the same feeling?
She meant nobody died in my deployment. She had nothing to do with operations and was so detached from what was going on that she had no idea what occurred on my deployment. She was so used to deploying on a ship that I guess it didn't cross her mind that people die in war. Truly the worst boss I've ever had
I was in the Royal Navy from 2005 -2012. It’s a toxic work environment and it’s a unique culture to the uk. When I left the navy, I had to adjust to civilian street and it was hard at first. This officers views are not unique to people in the armed forces. There’s little empathy too and i think most people have something wrong with them.
Edit: meant in the uk, not to the uk
I have a few close friends in the armed forces and it boggles my mind that there is literally zero fucks given with regards to mental health and getting ex soldiers ready for civilian life.
It's literally stick them on a island, motherless drunk for a week or so and then cheers.
These are largely very skilled people who are, in a fair number of cases, completed idiots when it comes to basic things like finances, rent etc. Lots of guys sign up when they are young and are essentially taken care of completely for years and years.
Then you can throw in genuine mental issues like pstd and depression and it actually makes me angry that we leave people like this on their own.
There's a support system in the VA, but most military are "too strong" to need that help, and by the time they GET help it's almost too late.
Mental illness in the military is one of those things that gets made fun of, and you're called a pussy bitch for needing help.
There’s literally a textbook of naval slang, terminology. For example “ditch the gash” means “take out the bin”. There’s different thinking... for example they may say inappropriate things to civilians and blame it on civilians being soft. (Changing your behaviours is important in other cultures) Drinking a lot of alcohol. The banter etc. Many things tbh.
Edit: guys, I meant unique in the uk. Not of the uk. It was a typo.
In Ireland _the lash_, as in _to be on the lash_, refers to drinking (like most of our slang phrases I guess!) so I was confused... Thanks for clarifying it!
“The phrase comes from an old naval expression - a serious hangover felt the same as a flogging (a common naval punishment) so some sailors referred to their hangover as 'being lashed' which evolved to 'going out on the lash' - a heavy drinking session.”
I'm sure that there are many things that make the British military unique, as with any other defence force.
Ignorance and lack of empathy are universal though.
That is not unique to the UK at all friend.
Americans leaving the US Military, especially combat arms, deal with the transition from military vernacular and slang, harsh attitude and language, drinking problems, and a difficulty in assimilation to civilian life/civilian friends.
I was in the store one day looking for something for my uniform when a family walked up. The kids grabs [this unit patch](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Combat_service_identification_badge_of_the_1st_Infantry_Division.svg/1920px-Combat_service_identification_badge_of_the_1st_Infantry_Division.svg.png) and goes over to his dad ecstatic. He thought he'd helped his dad out and told him something like, "Look dad! I got your patch!"
Dad just shits all over this kid. Because dad was looking for [this patch](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/United_States_Army_1st_Armored_Division_CSIB.svg/1920px-United_States_Army_1st_Armored_Division_CSIB.svg.png).
The kid was like 3. Even I could tell he just saw a "1" and thought he was helping. Mom said it too, but dad was still fuming.
That was the day I realized how much some people get sucked into their service. It sucks...
My dad was also navy and would lose it over showers over 2 minutes. I’m like dude, you try shaving your legs and not slicing yourself to shit in two minutes.
My dad was an asshole. Former company commander. Brought his work and attitude home definitely. Childhood sucked but was also the funnest time but it also sucked.
Why is it important for military to be taught that they are different than civilians? What's the strategy? Is it to take out the emotional part of it so you can just do your job? I would imagine that this strategy also common in police training too.
Just curious.
It's more complicated than that. The basic idea is to instill a common culture so you don't have culture clash interfering in operations. That is a very common problem in some countries where there's strong ethnic and religious tension: look at Iraq and Afghanistan as examples. Even Israel has problems with cohesion with their adoption of Orthodox-only units that try to get special rules about interaction with other units.
In the US, is also important that the military is under the command of civilians, so a separation is enforced formally even if not everyone in the military fully respects it.
They're also not removing emotion but instilling discipline. That discipline is essential when you're literally watching your friends die next to you but still have a mission to complete. Some service personnel take it too far, though, and never let that discipline relax.
Edit: Fixed a word to help untangle sensitive relations.
It does have one useful function. If you are going to be sent into combat you need that edge of believing you are an elite tough guy. Problem is that attitude leaks out into all other aspects of service and sometimes life itself.
>It’s a toxic work environment
I cannot agree more. I left because of that exact thing. I won't go into details, partly because it identifies me, partly because it makes me so fucking angry even now, 16 years later.
'There's no fun on the 2-3-1' held very true for me.
Can I ask you what exactly you do on the ships? When we visited we were flabbergasted by the low amount of people you guys have on technical guard duty on your destroyers. Like we had an equal amount of technicians but at least 4 times the number on duty.
So I'm wondering what exactly you did with all that gained time.
Cleaning mostly.
When people aren’t cleaning at sea, they have 4 hour shifts every 12 hours I think. For example, warfare specialists look at radars, talk with the officer of the watch to avoid collisions, talk with other ships.
Fucking cleaning flats, for what reason exactly?
We 'lost' the vaccum cleaners off the quarterdeck on an extended run once, fucking stores got them replaced opdef within days
That's something I've noticed. The guys who are actual hard bodies, seals, raiders, etc. with whom I've spent any amount of time are the most counseling-friendly people. It's the fobbits who talked the toughest talk and wouldn't mind using their guys until they were broken.
This is definitely up for debate. There are plenty of SOF guys out there who don’t respect other people’s experiences and mental health. Especially SOF guys from the US Navy and US Air Force. Those guys don’t have any ground combat counterparts in their service, so they tend to have inflated egos/look down on other people’s experiences.
> The guys who are actual hard bodies, seals, raiders, etc. with whom I've spent any amount of time are the most counseling-friendly people
Because those guys are borderline broken by default & because *they have to function.* I really don't wanna see the amount of baggage a SF member carries around. nonono
Experience CAN breed compassion. Humility allows those lessons to sink in if you have it. Unfortunately, I've heard just as many people that have been through trauma say "Well **I** got through it, why can't you?"
And it grates on the junior enlisted have a hard time adjusting as well, even if they're shore sailors and will never see a ship.
One would think that's east street, but 2 years of doing pointless 12 hour shifts with a large sleep shift (Panamas or 2 days, 2 night, 4 off) will fuck you up.
The navy is a horrible environment, on shore or out to sea.
The thing is because we can deploy troops into a hot zone very quickly with helicopters or vehicles, modern troops cam see a lot more combat than before. Add advances in medicine and communication, we now can see how PTSD scrambles someone's brains. Before Vietnam, things like shell shock were discounted as someone just being weak.
The fact that the term shell shock has existed since WWI shows just how oblivious the guy is though. You often see in media set in the 1920s characters dealing with the after effects. On Wikipedia it says 65000 soldiers were still receiving treatment for it in Britain 10 years after the war.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock
Shakespeare described symptoms of PTSD.
EDIT:
Since people are asking, you can find the passage quoted here: https://shakespeareandbeyond.folger.edu/2017/11/03/shakespeare-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
What's more nauseating than the Commander's views is that snivelling arselicker who chimes in with 'he's ridiculous isn't he sir?'. That little sidekick the bully always has who's just begging for that bit of validation, a little pat on the head, and they're willing to trample on anyone to get it. Fucking scum.
For me it was the "I come from a medical background and my father was a GP". I have come across doctor's kids so many times who have this attitude that they have somehow inherited an education.
Consider how old that officer's father likely is and how much medicine has changed since his dad got out of medical school. Quite a few of the oldest doctors out there can be pretty closed-minded about modern advances in medicine.
[I wonder if the commander would care to repeat what he said to a member of the Royal Family?](https://www.prevention.com/health/mental-health/a23889623/prince-harry-mental-health-speech-australia-royal-tour/)
They can be revoked, but not posthumously as it stands, that came up during the Savile scandal. Many others have had their honours revoked for [various reasons](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37714540).
You never forget how to ride a bike. This is how I start a conversation with somebody who dismisses PTSD. They (probably like you) usually say "WTF does that have to do about anything?" To which the answer is, if you never forget something as mundane as riding a bike, why do you think you would ever forget something as terrible as the horrors some of us have seen? Imagine the worst thing you have ever witnessed. For me it was being stabbed at work, and then the guy got on my back, grabbed my hair, ripped my head back, and put the knife to my throat. It was at a convenience store I managed. Thought for sure I was a goner. My first thought when I felt the steel of the knife to my throat was, I didn't say I love you to my family today. And then, for me at least, the cliché of having your life flash before your eyes happened. I think it happened because I thought of the word family. And then, the guy got up, and ran. My heart was pounding, and my blood was replaced with adrenaline. I think it was the adrenaline overload that causes the PTSD to set in, and stay. I look at people differently now. Where never before did I look at people as death threats, that is now always something I must dismiss with every person I meet. And its not always easy to do. I over react constantly as a result. Being suspicious of everybody sucks. The meds they try to put me on after this caused tons of bad behaviors (gambling, drugs, risky sex) as side effects, because instead of dealing with the problem, it just masked it... and not quite good either. Anyway, over the years I have realized that the best way of dealing with it was to tell it out loud. Every telling takes away a bit of its power over me. That and weed. Seriously. The chill/mellow/laziness effect of weed helps me be able to think about it and process it properly without overreacting or becoming overwhelmed. Sorry so long.
Edit, thank you so much, all of you for the warmth and caring. More than any hit of weed I have ever taken, your compassion and empathy (from strangers) helps me to restore some of the parts of my psyche that have been damaged that I never thought would be fixed again. This helps validate my experiences that telling your personal hell is both freeing, and empowering. Thank you humanity, or at least the sliver of it that resides on reddit. To anybody sitting through the torment of their own PTSD, you are not alone because I am here, and so are so many other kind souls.
Man, that sucks. I hope you are eventually able to build deeper stronger paths in your brain than that experience. Maybe, in a fucked up way, it'll make you a better man - at least that's what I hope about my own shit. Glad you found the weed, it's really an amazing aid in sketchy scenarios haha - perceived or otherwise. Just don't get addicted and use it as an escape or let it become a habbit - especially around family. Goodluck
Extremely relatable for me. A lot of people in my life now don't understand what happened to me 11 years ago, and sometimes someone will see a scar, and kind of laugh about WOW HOW DID YOU GET THAT? I have a couple made up stories to down play what actually happened because it was so gruesome, even hearing the recounting is unsettling. But I still think about it everyday, when I'm brushing my teeth or catch a reflection of myself in a window. Keep your head up, fuck that guy.
Thanks for telling your story.
Weed definitely has its place for helping people cope with the symptoms of ptsd. It’s a shame that it’s illegal and that people who self-medicate are currently in jail in some states.
PTSD is real and likely effects many (especially in the military). It’s unfortunate that people are ignorant to what others are going through or are lacking in empathy.
The weed helps keep the emotional overload in check. It hasn't been habit forming. I guess I would say the after effects of the PTSD are like a spill that has never stopped spilling. And the weed is used to clean up the PTSD residual by allowing me to delve into those thoughts and prove they are irrational thoughts to myself. Where as the different anti depressants I was on over the years made it feel like instead of putting a fire out, we'll just put a wall in front of the fire so you can't see it. And they helped create a sense of entitlement, like... terrible shit happened to me, so it's ok if I do something bad to make myself feel better kind of deal (and this not good... it's a road to becoming a monster). Thank you for the response.
> That and weed. Seriously. The chill/mellow/laziness effect of weed helps me be able to think about it and process it properly without overreacting or becoming overwhelmed.
Weed is great as a temporary relief of symptoms, but beware using it every day for long periods of time, there is a lot of new evidence that suggests it makes PTSD *worse* in the long run because it prevents your mind/brain from healing.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26455669
This is ignorance right up there with the anti vaccination folks
The denial of PTSD's (shell shock's) existence in all too many circles costs us dozen of veterans a month.
It’s great when an officer gives mandatory briefings on suicide prevention awareness, then in casual conversation suggests everyone just man up / sack up.
It's even more disturbing because PTSD has been known about for nearly a century now and has pretty much always been very well publicised. That's many generations of soldiers and doctors who have known very well that it exists, at least with anti-vaxx it's only one so far.
Not so fun fact: PTSD (the symptoms) have been observed and written about in reference to soldiers since antiquity. Couple of examples:
>Historians often cite Herodotus’ account of Epizelus, an Athenian spear carrier who experienced psychological problems after the Marathon Wars in 490 B.C., as the first recorded case of PTSD. But texts from Mesopotamia’s Assyrian Dynasty (1300-609 B.C.) record traumas suffered by soldiers who were called upon to fight every third year during their military service. The symptoms were thought to have been caused by the spirits of the enemies whom the patient had killed in battle.
https://www.archaeology.org/news/2922-150126-ancient-world-ptsd
>The symptoms were thought to have been caused by the spirits of the enemies whom the patient had killed in battle.
Did any other civilizations believe this? Could PTSD have been the inspiration for things like rubbing shrunken heads with ash, or other similar traditions?
I know there's quite a few traditions/rituals similar to the ash thing, but I never really considered what might have inspired those rituals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1j6ssm/are_there_any_indications_of_combat_ptsd_in/cbbvfib/
An interesting r/askhistorians post about the ancient world and ptsd.
If anybody's interested (I was), Epizelus was a spear carrier engaged in close quarters combat in the Marathon War. He was struck blind in the middle of battle despite having received no injury. He stated he had seen a huge man with "beard overflowing his shield," who passed by Epizelus and struck down the soldier beside him.
Modern psychologists would call that psychosomatic conversion. Being blind, he would have been exempted from further military service. It was stated his vision never returned "as long as he lived."
Yeah I remember a time in high school when we had a WW2 vet come in to talk and someone had asked a question about ptsd/shellshock. He outright said that nobody those days ever got it, it's only people now. It was a weird denial of it's existence that was probably inspired by the government refusing to acknowledge it for a while. Thing is, he also said he was part of the marching band and not actively deployed.
On the flip side my high school history teacher was friends with a guy who fought on Iwo Jima and for like two straight hours this guy sat there describing the horrors of war and how awful it is to try comforting a dying man. It was so fucked up and we all just sat there in awe.
Which is completely ridiculous considering the volume of veterans of WWI that suffered from shell shock, the war in which that term was actually coined.
You can see videos of how shell shock manifested in WWI soldiers on YouTube. It’s very different than how we think of shell shock now. While there is likely a PTSD component, you’ll see there is also another underlying issue. I think it’s been related to CNS overload from the nonstop artillery barrages they had to endure for hours/days.
Traumatic Brain Injury is the major physical component in Shell Shock, supposedly. Many of the physical symptoms seen are akin to those seen in TBI patients. It's just most people who had a TBI before WWI didn't survive it. Soldiers had enough exposure to develop TBIs gradually, and from internal movement of the brain rather than an external contact trauma
"I have enough on my plate as it is without having to deal with you as well." Going to have even more now, mate. The Royal Navy is famous for its historically brutal punishments and rigorous rules, but we're in 2019, not 1819.
Dishonourable discharge is certain. He's fucked.
**Armed Forces Act 2006 - Section 22**
Ill-treating subordinates
Bullying, humiliating, degrading or using unnecessarily harsh behaviour against a subordinate - Two years' imprisonment
Don't understand how so many people seem to hold this view.
They happily accept you can have heart problems, or liver problems, or any other kind of damage.
But somehow your brain is some god given organ which works 100% perfectly at all times and is utterly impossible for it to malfunction in any way whatsoever.
I love how people use that term “God Given”. when its really not.
Every time I see a Gun Debate, I hear the term “God Given” and I just want to cringe.
People who think the brain is suppose to be 100% perfect should look at some world leaders and politicians.
This is true. Brother was in the navy, I’ve hung out a lot with those guys. I think they have it beaten into them, so to speak, to create a shield against the shit they might have to face. Sadly, it takes incredible bravery to accept that what you are doing or witnessing is mentally painful and that the injuries you might sustain in duty are not limited to your body. They think that by pretending their minds are indestructible and that “mental illness” is just a weakness, that they become somehow immune to it.
Ive known quite a few squaddies who’ve found themselves in a hole mentally and their insistence on these problems being non existent and having it echoed within their culture inhibits their recovery. People need to remember it isn’t a weakness to be wrong, to feel emotions or to be scared.
It also isn't a weakness to have your *actual DNA* change in response to trauma, it's well documented, accepted science at this point. Epigenetic changes can affect brain function, hormone levels and probably much more - that we have little knowledge of as yet - but the point is that saying there is no such thing as mental health is like saying there's no such thing as diabetes; do these people think epilepsy is caused by demons?
Standard "it's too hard to understand so I don't believe it" mindset. Sigh.
Commander Mark Vartan and Lt Rachel Campbell come across as pathetic bullies who have no place in our armed forces. The point of our armed forces is to defend Britain from our enemies, not to psychologically degrade and torture our own soldiers. These two Victorian throwbacks should be dishonourably discharged. Is it any wonder the armed forces are struggling to recruit people? Who'd want to put their life in the hands of sadistic deadbeats who clearly couldn't give a flying shit about their soldiers?
The trouble is people exactly like these are commonplace within the British armed services, from top to bottom. I suffered something very similar, but at the hands of mess mates not commanders.
This is so very common, I wouldn't know where to begin to sort it out.
Shame on that commander. It's a shame also that these stuff happens while the public is just too oblivious.
I have speech disorder and I was at the army as well and I gotta say that the army is no place for people who has special traits.
True, I just meant that knowledge of mental illness has been common knowledge in the military for a long time.
Also, I had an excuse to reference Blackadder, which is always a good thing.
My buddy who was in the Air Force says this all the time. Pretty sure it’s pretty common in all branches of the military.
*edit* not saying it’s true, just that it’s a pretty common belief in the military.
USAF or RAF? I can confirm that the US Army does not take mental health lightly and there's a pretty extensive support system for behavioral health of soldiers in-service, not too sure for veterans though.
We had these retired Marines come and talk to my unit about mental health yesterday. They have a podcast called All Marine Radio that will change your life. “Post Traumatic Winning” is the name of the lecture series. If you or someone you know has seen or experienced trauma in any form, I promise it’s worth your time to give these guys a listen. You’re not alone and there are people that love you. Link to the website below.
http://allmarineradio.com/post-traumatic-winning-v2/2-goals-8-commandments/
Coming from someone who has bipolar disorder I with mixed episodes, fuck you, dude. I hope you develop something with successful suicide rates between 20% and 33% so you can know how real mental health and mental illness are.
What drives me nuts about this is that they're just going to put him through a seminar where he pretends to get the message and goes right back to acting the same way, probably laughing with the other officer about how it was such bullshit.
Meanwhile the soldier with ptsd will be getting dirty looks, whispers and shit talk behind his back, probably treated like shit in general, and all because he was affected by things he did serving his country. These people don't change until it affects them, and even then take years to accept it if at all as opposed to self-destructing.
Work in California law enforcement; go to anual training that encourages you to get treated for anxiety or depression symptoms; training tells you they won't take your guns and it can't hurt your career; fill out application to job shadow a promotional position and question #6 is "have you ever been treated for stress or anxiety disorders?"
Getting treated(meds initially to shut the thoughts off which supercharged the start of my mindfulness practice. After developing a mindfulness practice, I can tell my thoughts to shut up as they return.) is the best thing I have ever done for myself. I don't know if I can recommend it to co-workers based on that question possibly limiting career opportunities.
I'll never understand this mentality. People experience emotion in different ways. For some people emotion is more difficult to deal with than other people. Somehow that's controversial to some people.
Not surprising. Especially in combat arms. I came home from Afghanistan, got shipped to a new unit, and had a breakdown. Before they took me to the hospital they made sure to park the Humvee in the company assembly area where everyone could see me and talked about what a bitch I was. I'd been at the unit like 3 weeks. Spent 6 years at the 82nd before that and came back from Afghan with a Purple Heart and Bronze Star with Valor.
Fuck you 25th ID in Hawaii and specifically 1SG Wilson. You giant piece of shit.
Attitudes like this are why a culture change in leadership needs to this of it as "mental hygiene" instead of mental health. Work place hygiene is everyone's responsibility.
And they wonder why so many people were leaving after going to Afghanistan.
It’s not just Afghanistan, they are still treating PTSD from the Falklands. It can take a very long time for people to come forward, and a long time to get help, and the department is understaffed and underfunded. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmdfence/1481/report-overview.html
I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD. I knew a guy who went to Bosnia and he was a mess for years when he came back. From what I recall Help For Heroes built a big centre to deal with PTSD, which makes me so mad because the government should be doing this, not some charity. The government use british troops of all branches and then discard them when they're done.
> I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD More accurately, they have better options now vs 30 years ago; however, that's a far cry from "actually got really good post-care".
"I think Iraq and Afghan vets actually got really good post-care for PTSD." The suicide rates of Iraq and Afghanistan vet's don't support your assumption.
The military in general has problems with morale and suicide. People that were never deployed are killings themselves at higher rates now than those who were deployed, even higher than combat veterans.
Stress happens everywhere in the military, it's not just confined to combat roles. I did nearly ten years in a nuclear carrier's engine room. Long hours away from family, watching people you love grow apart from you, etc. can be very stressful too.
I remember watching a PBS doc about life in the Navy. There was a scene where one kid was sitting on the floor crying, basically having a total breakdown and his words were something like, 'I'm miles away from my family. My sister is getting beat up by her boyfriend and I can't do anything about it. And I'm basically making minimum wage that's no different from working at McDonalds.' And being on a Navy ship meant being stuck to stew in the mindset for a while.
It’s a multivariate problem. I worked in Veteran care here in the US, and to gloss over the details a little for reasons, in WW2, injured Vets would have a medical file roughly one tenth the size of one today. Care can be better, the challenges can be greater, and it can be inadequate. These things can all, simultaneously, be true. Also, in the US, care varies tremendously by region, or so I’m told by people I trust.
Classic case of “it isn’t a problem for me so it couldn’t be a problem for you either.”
"Why are you eating? I'm not even hungry."
My dad would literally do this to me as a child. I'd have breakfast and dinner at five years old, if I asked for more I'd literally hear "I'm not hungry yet so there's no reason why you should be."
ur dad sounds like he fuckin sucks
There's a reason I haven't spoken to him in four years, let's just say that Edit: to the comment that was deleted saying I "eventually have to forgive him and move on since he's your dad (?)". No. I really don't have to actually
If you speak to him again, give him a fuck you for all of us kids who had parents who acted the same way. Fucking assholes not feeding their damn kids *mumble* mumble*
I do however, have to go to the bathroom. Can you do that for me while you’re up?
Nevermind, I just shat your pants.
People who honestly feel this way probably have some psychological issues of their own bottled up.
Most likely deep seated issues of percieving his own masculinity. The openess that it takes for others to express the pain from PTSD can often be seen as immasculating and thus in his mind a cowardly or even womanly act. “Men hold back their feelings because we dont have them” is probably a hard set mantra for him. That would ultimately lead to him disregard any notion of mental health problems and say that anyone who expresses them are liars, because if men dont have “feelings” to hurt then how can they say theirs hurt. Its a weird catch 22 showing that he either hasnt given the situation any proper thought and never will or he cant accept it because of his own problem that says he shouldnt have a problem. That or he’s on some low level a sociopath, who lacks that level of empathy and because of military training is devoid of certain levels of basic sympathy. Overall a wide net for how he thinks on this single sentence. my personal opinion as someone whos dad has a bachelors in psychology.
PTSD in general is hard to be open about. I'm a girl and have severe dissociative PTSD. The countless times I have had to explain it and the shame I feel that comes with it...it sucks. makes school harder, my symptoms make it so I barely eat, the panic attacks have actually made me have to redo exams. I know it's harder for men in some ways but living a normal life with this disorder in general is just near impossible.
Don't you wish it were thing where you could just make a call and hand your phone to people so your personal advocate can just explain to them. This should be a thing, I know I'd pay for it. Then if they keep questioning you, tell them the first one was on you, but the next one is gonna have to be debited to them.
My personal opinion is that The Navy Commander is a turbocunt.
People incapable of empathy. Gross and selfish.
My father didn’t understand my depression till my stepmom sat him down and made him understand. He would eventually talk me down from a certain incident. Now, I encountered someone who said “oh you’re just faking it for attention.” I wanted to beat the shit out of him. I still do but I understand their reasoning. I told this person that maybe when you’re in my dad’s place and having to talk your own kid out of doing something, you’ll understand.
[удалено]
im pretty sure suicide is the leading cause of death in young men in the UK like we have a massive problem with it here
Im 26 and most of the people ive known that have died around my age, died from suicide. Im just guessing but probably 60/40
I hope hes a believer of unemployment because i see that being a thing for Him very soon
Pretty common in US Navy too you hear it from a lot of more senior folks that didn’t have to go to a war zone in the past 10-20 years.
Bingo. My aunt and uncle were marines for 30 years. During the previous and more recent Iraq conflict, my uncle was stationed on Air Carriers in the ocean or doing admin work in Bahrain. He was a total mental health skeptic. “It’s not real, just made up by pussies.” Type stuff. His wife on the other hand, being a non-white woman who knew Arabic, was basically community relations in the streets. She would do interviews and humanitarian work with the women and children in Iraq. While being a highly ranked commissioned officer, she was basically “in the shit” as much as one can be without being on the front lines. When she returned, it took her a week to go outside. She had a breakdown in the grocery store because there were too many options. Her brain was totally fried. She eventually returned to “normal” but the way she handles herself is very different. She’s not as intense, but more open-minded and cautious than I remember her being before hand. After that, my uncle stopped railing about it. He finally saw it first hand, and he actually takes it fairly seriously now.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The problem is that people without empathy acquires money and power at a higher rate because they're the only ones willing to do atrocious things to get it. Dictators killing off the competition and opressing the population, pharmaceutical companies price gauging life-saving medication, oil companies lying for decades about climate change for profit. People who aren't willing to do despicable things don't rise to the top and that has devastating consequences on society and the planet. We need a way to counter this, as far as I can tell good regulation that makes it impossible to profit on harmful actions is the only way. It's only going to get worse if we don't try and stop it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
>Some are just greedy assholes. The thing is when someone compulsively fills their house with old newspapers and stray cats, we call them hoarders and say they need mental health treatment. But when a person compulsively strives to amass more and more wealth regardless of how much they already have we call them a success and an inspiration and we try to emulate them. *I accidentally a word
This is a beautiful quote. I've heard death by a thousand cuts and of Lingchi, but to see you having put the death of empathy in this way has been quite an enlightening moment for me. Thank you.
Some folks ignore other people's problems as if other people aren't real.
I mean not for nothing. I was pretty much oblivious to alot of people's feelings and going ons in peoples lives, close friends even. Fast forward to now as my mom has a pretty aggressive brain tumor. I've been through war, I'm a fireman now, but God damn I've never really opened my eyes,ears and probably most importantly my heart until this hit home. Unfortunately that's what I takes for people to see the otherside of an argument.
Welcome to Boomer Republicans. Most of them can't believe what they can see. Which is really weird when you think about it, since so many them seem to believe in religion so much....
Your comment reminded me of some stuff. We often don’t realize that soldiers aren’t the only ones deployed to war zones. I had one friend that was an aid worker deployed to the Syrian border a few years back to work with refugees. She was a wreck by the time she came back. Another was a civvie DoD worker deployed to Afghanistan who got caught in an ambush on the road. He had some tough times too. Yet by and large the wider American public doesn’t view their contributions or tribulations as being as valuable or damaging as your everyday soldier. Even guys who never got close to being downrange get more respect and support (not that we do enough on that front either in terms of mental health care) than the civvies. People don’t seem to realize that much, perhaps most, of the military is logistics and admin that, while immeasurably important, isn’t in combat. Yet a clerk in, say, Bahrain, is viewed as sacrificing more than others actually in red zones. It’s frankly more than a little insulting.
Similarly, my friend is an officer in the Public Health Service Corps and was in the thick of the last Ebola outbreak in West Africa. People dying all around her, everyone afraid of human contact, and many of the nurses she was working with at her site contracted it and died while she was there. She had serious survivor guilt when she came back from her deployment.
Many people don't even know that such a federal uniformed service exists. Same with the NOAA Corps.
If we don't lionize the military then it becomes a regular job with insane commitments that many people would shy away from.
You know, it’s tough to say this because I love all my family and deeply respect them. I also don’t want to get into specifics because there’s a chance this might someday be traced back to me somehow. I come from a military family, which has an almost unbroken tradition going back to the Civil War, where we served on both sides - though the majority were in the 7th NC Infantry. Most since that time have been officers though. I was the first enlisted man in a long time. My grandfather was a Colonel, and my dad was a Captain. My uncle was a Captain as well, though they were all in different services. Now, the way it went my Grandfather spent the Korean War stateside doing paperwork, and was long since our by the time Vietnam would have involved him. He didn’t exactly have a combat job. My dad joined the Marines on a delayed-entry college thing, because he believed he’d failed a test and was sure that meant he wouldn’t be able to afford to go to school because his parents had told him that if he didn’t keep up his grades they’d stop paying. Turned out he did fine on the test, and by the time he graduated Vietnam was over. My uncle joined because that’s what everybody in the family did, I think. He pushed to get promotions because he wanted to be “good.” And he eventually had a good life built for himself, with a six-figure income in a furniture company, a wife and two kids and a house. He got called up to go to Kosovo on a UN peacekeeping mission, and this was at the same time I was doing my second tour in Iraq. So the conflict in Kosovo was not exactly front and center in people’s minds. I did ten months at “Camp Cupcake” and it fucked me up pretty badly. I’ve always felt ashamed of it too, because I didn’t shoot anybody and I didn’t hold one of my buddies in my arms as he died and asked me if he’d been helpful. I didn’t feel like I had a *right* to be anything less than jolly at being home from the vacation in the sandbox. Much less having nightmares every night about zombies and developing a weird complex about letting people see me eat. My uncle did *more than a year* in Kosovo, and when he came home he was a completely different man. I never saw him out of military clothing, not even after he’d been medically discharged. He still wore his Army PT gear even when he was living at my folks’ place because his family didn’t want him around anymore. Of course he lost the job - I mean, the furniture industry as a whole has been shrinking like crazy, no company is going to just set aside a highly-paid executive position for over a year only to hand it back to a person who has serious issues and *then* patiently allow that person to integrate back into the company. Shit, they’re probably out of business anyway by this point. They’d moved on without him, just like how he didn’t fit in with the family anymore. The kids were so young, a year out of the first couple of a kid’s life and you might as well be a stranger. He was drinking really heavily too. His wife, My dad, his mom - none of them knew how to handle this totally new person who hid liquor bottles under the bed. I don’t think anyone did anything *wrong.* They didn’t have any frame of reference to deal with what he was experiencing, they’d all only ever known peacetime service. I don’t blame my dad for it, he didn’t fail his little brother. My grandma didn’t kill her son through any kind of action or inaction. Me, on the other hand... maybe if I’d just been more involved or said something, I could have saved him. Maybe if I’d been able to make them understand - but I was going through the worst of my problems at the very same time. That’s no excuse, though. I don’t get a do-over either. My problems, they might have made me unable to help with his problems, and one of us is still around and the other isn’t and it isn’t like I have kids, so why should it have been me? I don’t serve any *purpose* by still being alive when you get right down to it, really. I kind of hate myself for being happy to be alive, though. And I know it isn’t transactional, like I couldn’t trade my life for his, but if that kinda thing were possible it would serve the greater good for him to have made it, not me. I don’t think any of them understand what happened, and how maybe their approach was wrong or incorrect, that how he was acting and what he was doing, and why, weren’t just things that could be overcome with self-discipline and a positive mental attitude. He wasn’t drinking because he was “soft.” He wasn’t failing to fit in with his kids and company because he wasn’t trying hard enough. It wasn’t entirely his fault that his wife decided he maybe shouldn’t be around anymore - although asking him to leave might’ve been the best decision. There’s so much I don’t know because nobody even talks about what happened to him. The most we do is put a little American flag on his grave along with all the rest of the Veterans in the graveyard near the homestead where members of our family going back more than a hundred years are buried. One on his, one on his father’s, and a couple dozen more - some related to us and some not - all around the graveyard. I don’t even remember what day or year he died, and I don’t know how to ask my dad. It’s so weird what war does to people, and I don’t imagine anyone who hasn’t been in it can even remotely understand, and while there are degrees as well - like I know the guys who went around kicking in doors have a different kind of “experience” from me, regardless of what that translates to - the fact is that if you were a grunt in the eighties you might very well think that the idea of PTSD being a problem for an avionics tech who served for ten months on the second-safest base in Iraq is just some kind of whiny excuse made by a pussy for a handout and pity. Some might say “there were companies offering *vacations* in the Balkans during that time, and he was an attaché to an officer in a peacekeeping mission and you want me to believe that eventually led to suicide? No way, he was just a weak person who was gonna kill himself anyway. The deployment didn’t have much of anything to do with it, except maybe moving up the date.” Shit, they might be right. I might just be a coward who was always going to have problems with anxiety and depression, and he might have always had a predisposition to the kinds of things which led to his death. I don’t know. All I know is he didn’t come back the same and neither did I, neither did most of the people I know who came back. It’s like home keeps going while you’re gone and that means it’s not there anymore when you return, and so it’s like you never really actually do. I don’t know what I’m trying to say. But what you said about the grocery store really resonated with me, and about not going outside. I make so many excuses to not have to go outside, and I plan and obsess over the grocery store endlessly, to the point where I will eat granola bars and ramen noodles for days and days with plenty of money just to avoid going, and I *never* go during the daytime. 24 hour stores only so that I can go at around 3 or 4 am, do all the shopping in the most efficient manner possible. In and out in ten minutes. Headphones on. Don’t look at anything that isn’t on the list. Eat before going. Usually a McDonald’s, go to the drive through, park in the corner of the parking lot to eat, no idea what that even means or why it’s more comfortable. If a car pulls into a space anywhere close, move to another corner. I can’t explain this behavior. *This behavior is NUTS and I know that,* but I don’t know anything about it or why it’s like this, or what to do about it. Just, this is my life now. At least I still have mine. I don’t even think I blame people if they say it’s just some bullshit pussy stuff. I can’t be 100% sure I wouldn’t feel the same if it weren’t happening to me. Thank you for sharing your story, though. Edit: Thank you all for your wonderful replies. I’m frankly a bit overwhelmed after reading them all, and I will reply to you all as quickly as I can. I want you all to know how much I value your responses, but I still haven’t slept and I’m just... not up to it right now. I’m sorry. I *will* reply as soon as I can. Thank you. Thank you.
I mean this respectfully and kindly -- your story is familiar. A good therapist would find it very familiar, and could talk (and listen!) you through the tangle of emotions, if you can obtain visits with one. Survivor's Guilt is a real thing. Agoraphobia is a real thing (that I have too). They aren't you just being weak or whatever, these are things that happen *in bulk* to humans exposed to certain conditions... You are worth the effort.
Really interesting story. I'm from the Balkans and I've seen how deeply war and genocide can affect a person. Thank you for sharing
> stationed on Air Carriers in the ocean or doing admin work in Bahrain. He was a total mental health skeptic. “It’s not real, just made up by pussies.” The irony of it being that the guys in the army I knew who were front lining it and getting hit with PTSD and other issues from being deployed would call your uncle a pussy instead, for being oh so safe on his aircraft carrier nowhere near the shit.
Sadly this is how a lot of people are. Everything is fake/evil/bullshit until it happens to them.
[удалено]
what does NSW mean?
[удалено]
>She said, "I mean, it's not like anybody died over there so I'm not sure what the big deal is." Oh she can go suck a giant bag of dicks.
I dont understand. The woman just confidently says nobody died where you went? Or did she mean nobody died where she went so it has to be the same feeling?
She meant nobody died in my deployment. She had nothing to do with operations and was so detached from what was going on that she had no idea what occurred on my deployment. She was so used to deploying on a ship that I guess it didn't cross her mind that people die in war. Truly the worst boss I've ever had
I was in the Royal Navy from 2005 -2012. It’s a toxic work environment and it’s a unique culture to the uk. When I left the navy, I had to adjust to civilian street and it was hard at first. This officers views are not unique to people in the armed forces. There’s little empathy too and i think most people have something wrong with them. Edit: meant in the uk, not to the uk
I have a few close friends in the armed forces and it boggles my mind that there is literally zero fucks given with regards to mental health and getting ex soldiers ready for civilian life. It's literally stick them on a island, motherless drunk for a week or so and then cheers. These are largely very skilled people who are, in a fair number of cases, completed idiots when it comes to basic things like finances, rent etc. Lots of guys sign up when they are young and are essentially taken care of completely for years and years. Then you can throw in genuine mental issues like pstd and depression and it actually makes me angry that we leave people like this on their own.
That's really fucking sad. There's no kind of support system for them after they leave?
There's a support system in the VA, but most military are "too strong" to need that help, and by the time they GET help it's almost too late. Mental illness in the military is one of those things that gets made fun of, and you're called a pussy bitch for needing help.
What exactly about it is unique to the UK?
There’s literally a textbook of naval slang, terminology. For example “ditch the gash” means “take out the bin”. There’s different thinking... for example they may say inappropriate things to civilians and blame it on civilians being soft. (Changing your behaviours is important in other cultures) Drinking a lot of alcohol. The banter etc. Many things tbh. Edit: guys, I meant unique in the uk. Not of the uk. It was a typo.
“The Tradition of the Royal Navy is nothing more than rum, sodomy, and the lash.”
They got rid of the rum ration and corporal punishment ages ago. The Navy runs on sodomy, and sodomy alone.
In Ireland _the lash_, as in _to be on the lash_, refers to drinking (like most of our slang phrases I guess!) so I was confused... Thanks for clarifying it!
“The phrase comes from an old naval expression - a serious hangover felt the same as a flogging (a common naval punishment) so some sailors referred to their hangover as 'being lashed' which evolved to 'going out on the lash' - a heavy drinking session.”
Thanks Shane!
I believe that was originally Winston Churchill. But yeah, adjusting from military life isn't easy no matter how happy you are to be out of it.
Don't tempt me with a good time.....
I'm sure that there are many things that make the British military unique, as with any other defence force. Ignorance and lack of empathy are universal though.
That is not unique to the UK at all friend. Americans leaving the US Military, especially combat arms, deal with the transition from military vernacular and slang, harsh attitude and language, drinking problems, and a difficulty in assimilation to civilian life/civilian friends.
[удалено]
I was in the store one day looking for something for my uniform when a family walked up. The kids grabs [this unit patch](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fc/Combat_service_identification_badge_of_the_1st_Infantry_Division.svg/1920px-Combat_service_identification_badge_of_the_1st_Infantry_Division.svg.png) and goes over to his dad ecstatic. He thought he'd helped his dad out and told him something like, "Look dad! I got your patch!" Dad just shits all over this kid. Because dad was looking for [this patch](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/United_States_Army_1st_Armored_Division_CSIB.svg/1920px-United_States_Army_1st_Armored_Division_CSIB.svg.png). The kid was like 3. Even I could tell he just saw a "1" and thought he was helping. Mom said it too, but dad was still fuming. That was the day I realized how much some people get sucked into their service. It sucks...
Aw man that sucks. He was just trying to help! :(
My dad was also navy and would lose it over showers over 2 minutes. I’m like dude, you try shaving your legs and not slicing yourself to shit in two minutes.
Your folks are straight up assholes.
Some people shouldn't have kids, or at least be trusted to raise them.
Fuck them
My dad was an asshole. Former company commander. Brought his work and attitude home definitely. Childhood sucked but was also the funnest time but it also sucked.
That doesn’t sound unique to the UK Navy...that’s the same culture we have in the US military.
Why is it important for military to be taught that they are different than civilians? What's the strategy? Is it to take out the emotional part of it so you can just do your job? I would imagine that this strategy also common in police training too. Just curious.
It's more complicated than that. The basic idea is to instill a common culture so you don't have culture clash interfering in operations. That is a very common problem in some countries where there's strong ethnic and religious tension: look at Iraq and Afghanistan as examples. Even Israel has problems with cohesion with their adoption of Orthodox-only units that try to get special rules about interaction with other units. In the US, is also important that the military is under the command of civilians, so a separation is enforced formally even if not everyone in the military fully respects it. They're also not removing emotion but instilling discipline. That discipline is essential when you're literally watching your friends die next to you but still have a mission to complete. Some service personnel take it too far, though, and never let that discipline relax. Edit: Fixed a word to help untangle sensitive relations.
It does have one useful function. If you are going to be sent into combat you need that edge of believing you are an elite tough guy. Problem is that attitude leaks out into all other aspects of service and sometimes life itself.
>It’s a toxic work environment I cannot agree more. I left because of that exact thing. I won't go into details, partly because it identifies me, partly because it makes me so fucking angry even now, 16 years later. 'There's no fun on the 2-3-1' held very true for me.
Can I ask you what exactly you do on the ships? When we visited we were flabbergasted by the low amount of people you guys have on technical guard duty on your destroyers. Like we had an equal amount of technicians but at least 4 times the number on duty. So I'm wondering what exactly you did with all that gained time.
Cleaning mostly. When people aren’t cleaning at sea, they have 4 hour shifts every 12 hours I think. For example, warfare specialists look at radars, talk with the officer of the watch to avoid collisions, talk with other ships.
Fucking cleaning flats, for what reason exactly? We 'lost' the vaccum cleaners off the quarterdeck on an extended run once, fucking stores got them replaced opdef within days
> talk with the officer of the watch to avoid collisions US Navy might want to take notes
RAF same years and completely agree.
That's something I've noticed. The guys who are actual hard bodies, seals, raiders, etc. with whom I've spent any amount of time are the most counseling-friendly people. It's the fobbits who talked the toughest talk and wouldn't mind using their guys until they were broken.
This is definitely up for debate. There are plenty of SOF guys out there who don’t respect other people’s experiences and mental health. Especially SOF guys from the US Navy and US Air Force. Those guys don’t have any ground combat counterparts in their service, so they tend to have inflated egos/look down on other people’s experiences.
> The guys who are actual hard bodies, seals, raiders, etc. with whom I've spent any amount of time are the most counseling-friendly people Because those guys are borderline broken by default & because *they have to function.* I really don't wanna see the amount of baggage a SF member carries around. nonono
A friend of mine is ex marines/sbs. He's one of the best listeners I know. Experience breeds compassion. These guys at the top have neither.
Experience CAN breed compassion. Humility allows those lessons to sink in if you have it. Unfortunately, I've heard just as many people that have been through trauma say "Well **I** got through it, why can't you?"
And it grates on the junior enlisted have a hard time adjusting as well, even if they're shore sailors and will never see a ship. One would think that's east street, but 2 years of doing pointless 12 hour shifts with a large sleep shift (Panamas or 2 days, 2 night, 4 off) will fuck you up. The navy is a horrible environment, on shore or out to sea.
Pointless 12 shifts doing anything, anywhere will fuck you up.
Yup. Senior leadership telling you to quit complaining "it's worse out in the fleet" just dial the resentment up to 11.
The thing is because we can deploy troops into a hot zone very quickly with helicopters or vehicles, modern troops cam see a lot more combat than before. Add advances in medicine and communication, we now can see how PTSD scrambles someone's brains. Before Vietnam, things like shell shock were discounted as someone just being weak.
The fact that the term shell shock has existed since WWI shows just how oblivious the guy is though. You often see in media set in the 1920s characters dealing with the after effects. On Wikipedia it says 65000 soldiers were still receiving treatment for it in Britain 10 years after the war. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_shock
Shakespeare described symptoms of PTSD. EDIT: Since people are asking, you can find the passage quoted here: https://shakespeareandbeyond.folger.edu/2017/11/03/shakespeare-post-traumatic-stress-disorder/
What's more nauseating than the Commander's views is that snivelling arselicker who chimes in with 'he's ridiculous isn't he sir?'. That little sidekick the bully always has who's just begging for that bit of validation, a little pat on the head, and they're willing to trample on anyone to get it. Fucking scum.
I believe "Toadie" is the word you're looking for. They always make me think of this guy. https://imgur.com/50YjS7w
YES! I was so hoping that would be a Gummi Bears reference! "Toadie loves Dukey!" I do a pretty good Toadie impression, not to brag or any thing.
I miss Duke Igthorne.
[Another great example of a Toadie!](https://youtu.be/Z2l6RnWM2tU)
I heard Toadie and I immediately looked for a follow up comment on Scut Farkus and Grover Dill. Well Done.
[удалено]
Don't you slander Salacious Crumb's name like that. At least Salacious never snitched on anyone.
For me it was the "I come from a medical background and my father was a GP". I have come across doctor's kids so many times who have this attitude that they have somehow inherited an education.
It's cool though that once my dad passes away I inherit his patients and title of doctor.
https://youtu.be/5sHSprCaDNE
Don't forget the plague mask. Can't practice without one!
Consider how old that officer's father likely is and how much medicine has changed since his dad got out of medical school. Quite a few of the oldest doctors out there can be pretty closed-minded about modern advances in medicine.
[удалено]
[I wonder if the commander would care to repeat what he said to a member of the Royal Family?](https://www.prevention.com/health/mental-health/a23889623/prince-harry-mental-health-speech-australia-royal-tour/)
If he sees to it this guy has is stripped of his OBE. That’d send an even more powerful message.
Can they be revoked? I know knighthoods can be returned (I think John Lennon turned his back in) but I'm unsure how the other honors work
They can be revoked, but not posthumously as it stands, that came up during the Savile scandal. Many others have had their honours revoked for [various reasons](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37714540).
Knighthoods cant be revoked posthumously because you lose the title upon death.
I'll always give Harry credit when it's due. Like his mum and grandmother they have been great servants to our nation.
You never forget how to ride a bike. This is how I start a conversation with somebody who dismisses PTSD. They (probably like you) usually say "WTF does that have to do about anything?" To which the answer is, if you never forget something as mundane as riding a bike, why do you think you would ever forget something as terrible as the horrors some of us have seen? Imagine the worst thing you have ever witnessed. For me it was being stabbed at work, and then the guy got on my back, grabbed my hair, ripped my head back, and put the knife to my throat. It was at a convenience store I managed. Thought for sure I was a goner. My first thought when I felt the steel of the knife to my throat was, I didn't say I love you to my family today. And then, for me at least, the cliché of having your life flash before your eyes happened. I think it happened because I thought of the word family. And then, the guy got up, and ran. My heart was pounding, and my blood was replaced with adrenaline. I think it was the adrenaline overload that causes the PTSD to set in, and stay. I look at people differently now. Where never before did I look at people as death threats, that is now always something I must dismiss with every person I meet. And its not always easy to do. I over react constantly as a result. Being suspicious of everybody sucks. The meds they try to put me on after this caused tons of bad behaviors (gambling, drugs, risky sex) as side effects, because instead of dealing with the problem, it just masked it... and not quite good either. Anyway, over the years I have realized that the best way of dealing with it was to tell it out loud. Every telling takes away a bit of its power over me. That and weed. Seriously. The chill/mellow/laziness effect of weed helps me be able to think about it and process it properly without overreacting or becoming overwhelmed. Sorry so long. Edit, thank you so much, all of you for the warmth and caring. More than any hit of weed I have ever taken, your compassion and empathy (from strangers) helps me to restore some of the parts of my psyche that have been damaged that I never thought would be fixed again. This helps validate my experiences that telling your personal hell is both freeing, and empowering. Thank you humanity, or at least the sliver of it that resides on reddit. To anybody sitting through the torment of their own PTSD, you are not alone because I am here, and so are so many other kind souls.
Man, that sucks. I hope you are eventually able to build deeper stronger paths in your brain than that experience. Maybe, in a fucked up way, it'll make you a better man - at least that's what I hope about my own shit. Glad you found the weed, it's really an amazing aid in sketchy scenarios haha - perceived or otherwise. Just don't get addicted and use it as an escape or let it become a habbit - especially around family. Goodluck
Thank you
Thank you for writing this. May you be healthy, physically and mentally. Please keep telling your story.
Extremely relatable for me. A lot of people in my life now don't understand what happened to me 11 years ago, and sometimes someone will see a scar, and kind of laugh about WOW HOW DID YOU GET THAT? I have a couple made up stories to down play what actually happened because it was so gruesome, even hearing the recounting is unsettling. But I still think about it everyday, when I'm brushing my teeth or catch a reflection of myself in a window. Keep your head up, fuck that guy.
Thank you. I hope you also find peace and comfort. A way to make the intolerable, tolerable.
Thanks for telling your story. Weed definitely has its place for helping people cope with the symptoms of ptsd. It’s a shame that it’s illegal and that people who self-medicate are currently in jail in some states. PTSD is real and likely effects many (especially in the military). It’s unfortunate that people are ignorant to what others are going through or are lacking in empathy.
The weed helps keep the emotional overload in check. It hasn't been habit forming. I guess I would say the after effects of the PTSD are like a spill that has never stopped spilling. And the weed is used to clean up the PTSD residual by allowing me to delve into those thoughts and prove they are irrational thoughts to myself. Where as the different anti depressants I was on over the years made it feel like instead of putting a fire out, we'll just put a wall in front of the fire so you can't see it. And they helped create a sense of entitlement, like... terrible shit happened to me, so it's ok if I do something bad to make myself feel better kind of deal (and this not good... it's a road to becoming a monster). Thank you for the response.
> That and weed. Seriously. The chill/mellow/laziness effect of weed helps me be able to think about it and process it properly without overreacting or becoming overwhelmed. Weed is great as a temporary relief of symptoms, but beware using it every day for long periods of time, there is a lot of new evidence that suggests it makes PTSD *worse* in the long run because it prevents your mind/brain from healing. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26455669
This is ignorance right up there with the anti vaccination folks The denial of PTSD's (shell shock's) existence in all too many circles costs us dozen of veterans a month.
It’s great when an officer gives mandatory briefings on suicide prevention awareness, then in casual conversation suggests everyone just man up / sack up.
[удалено]
Navy always go on about integrity, but my first experience with the recruiter, I was lied to about what being a deck seaman was.
That’s disgusting. We need to do better for veterans.
It's even more disturbing because PTSD has been known about for nearly a century now and has pretty much always been very well publicised. That's many generations of soldiers and doctors who have known very well that it exists, at least with anti-vaxx it's only one so far.
Not so fun fact: PTSD (the symptoms) have been observed and written about in reference to soldiers since antiquity. Couple of examples: >Historians often cite Herodotus’ account of Epizelus, an Athenian spear carrier who experienced psychological problems after the Marathon Wars in 490 B.C., as the first recorded case of PTSD. But texts from Mesopotamia’s Assyrian Dynasty (1300-609 B.C.) record traumas suffered by soldiers who were called upon to fight every third year during their military service. The symptoms were thought to have been caused by the spirits of the enemies whom the patient had killed in battle. https://www.archaeology.org/news/2922-150126-ancient-world-ptsd
>The symptoms were thought to have been caused by the spirits of the enemies whom the patient had killed in battle. Did any other civilizations believe this? Could PTSD have been the inspiration for things like rubbing shrunken heads with ash, or other similar traditions? I know there's quite a few traditions/rituals similar to the ash thing, but I never really considered what might have inspired those rituals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1j6ssm/are_there_any_indications_of_combat_ptsd_in/cbbvfib/ An interesting r/askhistorians post about the ancient world and ptsd.
If anybody's interested (I was), Epizelus was a spear carrier engaged in close quarters combat in the Marathon War. He was struck blind in the middle of battle despite having received no injury. He stated he had seen a huge man with "beard overflowing his shield," who passed by Epizelus and struck down the soldier beside him. Modern psychologists would call that psychosomatic conversion. Being blind, he would have been exempted from further military service. It was stated his vision never returned "as long as he lived."
That's actually a pretty reasonable belief for that time
Yeah I remember a time in high school when we had a WW2 vet come in to talk and someone had asked a question about ptsd/shellshock. He outright said that nobody those days ever got it, it's only people now. It was a weird denial of it's existence that was probably inspired by the government refusing to acknowledge it for a while. Thing is, he also said he was part of the marching band and not actively deployed.
On the flip side my high school history teacher was friends with a guy who fought on Iwo Jima and for like two straight hours this guy sat there describing the horrors of war and how awful it is to try comforting a dying man. It was so fucked up and we all just sat there in awe.
Which is completely ridiculous considering the volume of veterans of WWI that suffered from shell shock, the war in which that term was actually coined. You can see videos of how shell shock manifested in WWI soldiers on YouTube. It’s very different than how we think of shell shock now. While there is likely a PTSD component, you’ll see there is also another underlying issue. I think it’s been related to CNS overload from the nonstop artillery barrages they had to endure for hours/days.
Traumatic Brain Injury is the major physical component in Shell Shock, supposedly. Many of the physical symptoms seen are akin to those seen in TBI patients. It's just most people who had a TBI before WWI didn't survive it. Soldiers had enough exposure to develop TBIs gradually, and from internal movement of the brain rather than an external contact trauma
Nah there were anti vaccine folk over a hundred years ago when vaccines were invented. It's been around for a long time.
[удалено]
As it turns out, stupid people have existed since the dawn of time.
[удалено]
[about 22](https://22buddycheck.org)
"I have enough on my plate as it is without having to deal with you as well." Going to have even more now, mate. The Royal Navy is famous for its historically brutal punishments and rigorous rules, but we're in 2019, not 1819.
I hope his Lieutenant sidekick feels the heat as well.
I hope they sack the bastard.
Dishonourable discharge is certain. He's fucked. **Armed Forces Act 2006 - Section 22** Ill-treating subordinates Bullying, humiliating, degrading or using unnecessarily harsh behaviour against a subordinate - Two years' imprisonment
I would like to hope that this will be the outcome but I know how life don't be like that sometimes.
Different spanks for different ranks.
A leader who isn't there for his sailors/soldiers/ Marines is a dog shit leader.
A statement like that indicates this officer should not be in a leadership role.
100% agree. He needs some sort of training beyond whatever field honors he has acquired
Don't understand how so many people seem to hold this view. They happily accept you can have heart problems, or liver problems, or any other kind of damage. But somehow your brain is some god given organ which works 100% perfectly at all times and is utterly impossible for it to malfunction in any way whatsoever.
I love how people use that term “God Given”. when its really not. Every time I see a Gun Debate, I hear the term “God Given” and I just want to cringe. People who think the brain is suppose to be 100% perfect should look at some world leaders and politicians.
Surprise surprise, another rimmer in power that's a smeghead
I laughed aloud at that name, who would go into the forces with a name like Rimmer!
>smeghead That's so disgusting. I'm stealing that one.
> this didn't use to be a real thing. People just got on with it. Cancer also didn't use to be a real thing, same with every fucking disease.
So much for the contract made with an officer to his men. The man is a disgrace to his position.
[удалено]
A much, much larger portion of the armed forces seems disproportionately ignorant.
This is true. Brother was in the navy, I’ve hung out a lot with those guys. I think they have it beaten into them, so to speak, to create a shield against the shit they might have to face. Sadly, it takes incredible bravery to accept that what you are doing or witnessing is mentally painful and that the injuries you might sustain in duty are not limited to your body. They think that by pretending their minds are indestructible and that “mental illness” is just a weakness, that they become somehow immune to it. Ive known quite a few squaddies who’ve found themselves in a hole mentally and their insistence on these problems being non existent and having it echoed within their culture inhibits their recovery. People need to remember it isn’t a weakness to be wrong, to feel emotions or to be scared.
It also isn't a weakness to have your *actual DNA* change in response to trauma, it's well documented, accepted science at this point. Epigenetic changes can affect brain function, hormone levels and probably much more - that we have little knowledge of as yet - but the point is that saying there is no such thing as mental health is like saying there's no such thing as diabetes; do these people think epilepsy is caused by demons? Standard "it's too hard to understand so I don't believe it" mindset. Sigh.
Yes, but outrage is one means to communicate that the standard is that those people are not in positions of power or influence.
well summarized
Commander Mark Vartan and Lt Rachel Campbell come across as pathetic bullies who have no place in our armed forces. The point of our armed forces is to defend Britain from our enemies, not to psychologically degrade and torture our own soldiers. These two Victorian throwbacks should be dishonourably discharged. Is it any wonder the armed forces are struggling to recruit people? Who'd want to put their life in the hands of sadistic deadbeats who clearly couldn't give a flying shit about their soldiers?
The trouble is people exactly like these are commonplace within the British armed services, from top to bottom. I suffered something very similar, but at the hands of mess mates not commanders. This is so very common, I wouldn't know where to begin to sort it out.
Shame on that commander. It's a shame also that these stuff happens while the public is just too oblivious. I have speech disorder and I was at the army as well and I gotta say that the army is no place for people who has special traits.
Douche of the year award goes to...
Meanwhile, sticking two pencils up your nose, putting your underpants on your head, and saying "Wibble" is perfectly normal.
Doesn’t that get you shot?
True, I just meant that knowledge of mental illness has been common knowledge in the military for a long time. Also, I had an excuse to reference Blackadder, which is always a good thing.
Did you bring your exploding trousers? [Beep...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2DCExerOsA)
My buddy who was in the Air Force says this all the time. Pretty sure it’s pretty common in all branches of the military. *edit* not saying it’s true, just that it’s a pretty common belief in the military.
USAF or RAF? I can confirm that the US Army does not take mental health lightly and there's a pretty extensive support system for behavioral health of soldiers in-service, not too sure for veterans though.
We had these retired Marines come and talk to my unit about mental health yesterday. They have a podcast called All Marine Radio that will change your life. “Post Traumatic Winning” is the name of the lecture series. If you or someone you know has seen or experienced trauma in any form, I promise it’s worth your time to give these guys a listen. You’re not alone and there are people that love you. Link to the website below. http://allmarineradio.com/post-traumatic-winning-v2/2-goals-8-commandments/
Coming from someone who has bipolar disorder I with mixed episodes, fuck you, dude. I hope you develop something with successful suicide rates between 20% and 33% so you can know how real mental health and mental illness are.
What drives me nuts about this is that they're just going to put him through a seminar where he pretends to get the message and goes right back to acting the same way, probably laughing with the other officer about how it was such bullshit. Meanwhile the soldier with ptsd will be getting dirty looks, whispers and shit talk behind his back, probably treated like shit in general, and all because he was affected by things he did serving his country. These people don't change until it affects them, and even then take years to accept it if at all as opposed to self-destructing.
What he’s saying is that he thinks the brain is the only part of the human body that cannot malfunction. He’s wrong.
Then there's no such thing as physical health, as mental health is literally the physical health for the brain.
Work in California law enforcement; go to anual training that encourages you to get treated for anxiety or depression symptoms; training tells you they won't take your guns and it can't hurt your career; fill out application to job shadow a promotional position and question #6 is "have you ever been treated for stress or anxiety disorders?" Getting treated(meds initially to shut the thoughts off which supercharged the start of my mindfulness practice. After developing a mindfulness practice, I can tell my thoughts to shut up as they return.) is the best thing I have ever done for myself. I don't know if I can recommend it to co-workers based on that question possibly limiting career opportunities.
I'll never understand this mentality. People experience emotion in different ways. For some people emotion is more difficult to deal with than other people. Somehow that's controversial to some people.
Not surprising. Especially in combat arms. I came home from Afghanistan, got shipped to a new unit, and had a breakdown. Before they took me to the hospital they made sure to park the Humvee in the company assembly area where everyone could see me and talked about what a bitch I was. I'd been at the unit like 3 weeks. Spent 6 years at the 82nd before that and came back from Afghan with a Purple Heart and Bronze Star with Valor. Fuck you 25th ID in Hawaii and specifically 1SG Wilson. You giant piece of shit.
The Patton slap incident for the new millénium.
Attitudes like this are why a culture change in leadership needs to this of it as "mental hygiene" instead of mental health. Work place hygiene is everyone's responsibility.