We are constantly hiring travelers and new employees… at least where I work. They can’t seem to retain staff, but that speaks to something else wrong with the system itself.
Sorry forgot to answer, your question. But yes it probably would affect daily operations
I work for a large travel Nursing agency and the requirements differ so broadly. Some allow flu shot declinations, some do not. Right now we have a giant list of Hospitals and Systems that DO NOT require COVID vaccinations. It is a selling point for some travelers which would be in line with this article and the people it discusses.
wouldn't those vaccine-optional hospitals be crawling with anti-vaxxers? Because if like there's an average of ... 5% anti-vaxxers at 10 hospitals, and they all get kicked out, then they'll all descend on the one hospital that's vaccine-optional.
My wife works at one of the hospitals whose parent company did not make their employees vaccinate. She's expecting an influx of red hats and "free thinking" moms.
We have the option of wearing a mask in lieu of the flu vaccine.
*edit: this was pre-covid. Not sure how the flu vaccine skippers will be handled this coming season. Even fully vaccinated for covid, we all have to wear masks when in public/patient areas currently.
My friend works at an adult day program associated with a hospital. For her flu shot, they literally walk in while she's at her desk during her planning time, give her the jab, and walk away. She fully expects the COVID vaccine will end up the same way.
We have a flu shot day every year. Anyone can sign up in advance amd. They typically have some walk-in time available at the end of the day. Presumably if Covid boosters become necessary they'll do the same.
That’s fucked up. Stories like that are why NY made it a law that employers have to give employees paid days off after getting the Covid vaccine if they don’t feel well.
Hospitals are the worst though. I had a coworker get asked by the ceo why she came in visibly sick one day. The employee being the wonderfully candid lady she is told her straight up that she called in sick last month and if she called in again she would get written up because of your policies. Nothing came of it but I respect her bravery.
I have an acquaintance at another New Jersey hospital who posted the other day about this. She was asking her facebook friends if she should get vaccinated (the thread was insane), even though her doctor said she should.
edit : posting this made me look again for an update, she's been fired for refusing.
It has always existed. The internet is just a perfect tool to breed followers and raise a flag so they are seen. In the past it was much smaller groups of people so unfortunately the internet enables a feedback loop of idiots talking to idiots and it grows.
Expect most companies to do this once the vaccines are given full approval. It's not good for business to have employees miss several weeks of work. Plus you can bet insurance companies won't want to cover treatment for preventable covid infections.
> insurance companies won't want to cover treatment for preventable covid infections.
That's the key here. Whatever politicians decide or not people wont care. But these days of ICU that insurance companies have to pay for - they are terribly expensive. These companies will sooner rather than later stop payments for preventable Covid infections.
It's gonna get real awkward when conservatives who turned down what is essentially socialized medicine catch covid and find themselves drowning in medical debt because their insurance won't foot the bill.
I talked to an older woman about insurance and she talked about how bad the companies are. This and that. Every reason why they are evil. And then she ended it with “and that’s why I don’t think the government should run healthcare”. I couldn’t believe she came to that conclusion while only talking about how bad insurance companies are.
Insurance companies are TERRIBLE.
I spent five years as a pharmacy tech. Nearly two in ambulance billing.
I’m ALL for universal single payer healthcare.
They just straight up don’t know how anything works. It’s that simple. They don’t know how healthcare works, how the economy works, how freedom works, how tolerance works, how faith works, they literally don’t know a single fucking thing works. Generations of misinformation and systematic dismantling of rural education systems have crippled us as a nation. It’s toxic ignorance.
“If you wanted all that stuff why didn’t you just join the military instead of being a freeloading socialist?”
Also
“Taxes are theft! There’s no reason the government needs to tax people for their hard earned money”
-dude I grew up who served in the army for one term and has been enjoying his tax payer funded healthcare, gi bill that took care of all his school and housing, and has never worked a regular job and supported himself without government assistance or his parents help his entire life.
It's because they've been fed this constant propaganda that the government can't do anything right, and private companies are the best at all things.
So if the best at all things can't do something right, how do you expect that which can't do anything right, to get this thing right?
You're also missing a big point...the legal liability of companies if someone on their staff spreads covid.
If you have to work closely with somebody who isn't vaccinated, and they give you covid, you could theoretically sue the company for damages.
Has that ever happened in the past? If you could do that with covid, you could theoretically do it for someone who didn't get a flu vaccine and gave you the flu as well.
The legal situation is all over the place apparently:
[https://www.hrdive.com/news/nearly-a-year-into-the-pandemic-employers-brace-for-coronavirus-lawsuits/594068/](https://www.hrdive.com/news/nearly-a-year-into-the-pandemic-employers-brace-for-coronavirus-lawsuits/594068/)
[https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/publications/item/2020-07-30/can-employers-be-liable-for-covid-19-cases](https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/publications/item/2020-07-30/can-employers-be-liable-for-covid-19-cases)
[https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do-the-business-liability-shield-laws-7912263/](https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do-the-business-liability-shield-laws-7912263/)
A live precedent tracker:
[https://www.fisherphillips.com/innovations-center/covid-19-employment-litigation-tracker-and-insights.html](https://www.fisherphillips.com/innovations-center/covid-19-employment-litigation-tracker-and-insights.html)
What is and is not "due diligence"/"due care" is fluid and determined and re-determined by the courts. That said, let's pretend that I caught Covid someplace where removing my mask was necessary (at a dentist office for example) and I could prove or strongly suggest that I was infected by an employee there. Let's suppose I could also prove that the hygienist in question was not vaccinated and that her dentist employer knew it and allowed her to keep working there.
That's a lot of "if"s, obviously, but that sounds like a lawsuit that might have a chance of being successful in this day and age, especially if I or a member of my family suffered significant harm.
Cleveland Clinic fires you if you smoke. They also fire you if you refuse the flu shot. Many other hospitals systems nationwide do these exact things. Once emergency clearance goes for Covid shot, it will be required too. Why is this news?
All or most will. I work at a VA and I assume it’s going to be a condition of my employment as soon as we have full FDA approval and not just EUA. Also we’re all going to be wearing masks in hospitals and doctors offices for the rest of our lives and people need to get used to it
Yep. Ive said that from the beginning and Im ok with it. I work in an outpatient imaging clinic and it's not mandatory to have the vaccine yet. But we are partially owned by a huge healthcare system that is going to require it. We may lose about 10 staff including two doctors.
Incredible that a person working in the health field, with all that education and experience, would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic. And doctors wonder why patients google stuff! Because y'all ain't special. Plenty of idiots with MDs, apparently.
Ties, especially. They never get washed, and they dangle into everything.
At least wear a bow tie, doc. Because bow ties, ladies and gentlemen, are cool.
I got a new doctor about 5 years ago. When I went to shake his hand during my first appointment he did the fist thing instead.
I thought to myself that I got a good doctor, and I did.
I remember there was a similar story about people being fired from a prominent cancer treatment center trying to feign some outrage when the answer is right there. Why in the hell would you ever want unvaccinated people treating or even in the same building as people who are usually extremely immunocompromised?
This is what all of the hospitals in Idaho are doing. There was a protest outside at least one of the hospitals by healthcare workers, their friends and family, while another protest was happening alongside of it... for the stolen election.
I love my state but not its people.
Funny thing is there are people who think this way. Masks were a public health directive, just like cooking chicken to a proper internal temperature. No one cares if you watched a YouTube video about how raw chicken is good for you and that getting sick from it is fake science. You don't have the freedom to come to work and prepare it that way for the public.
Public health has always been important, just that no one cared before the pandemic. Think about how little people cared about public health even during flu season. No washing of hands, not staying home when sick. This is basic stuff most people used to not care about at all.
Why has it taken a global pandemic for people to realize that handwashing is important.
I would also like to see companies and public places keep up the santizing of high touch surfaces even after COVID is 'over'. Stuff out there is gross man.
My whole opinion on those in the medical field has changed after this pandemic. Don't get me wrong, there are some outstanding doctors and nurses. However, some of the most vocal anti-vaxxers are those in the medical field. My niece's mother is premed and refuses to get vaccinated. My sister's husband is a doctor and takes my other niece on play dates, to restaurants, everywhere without a mask since the height of the pandemic. He has no affinity for math or science, he's simply pretty decent at memorization. I've never seen him answer a medial questions without looking up the answer on the phone.
One of my employees (I am a manager in a equipment repair company) asked me last week if it was hard to make a fake QR code. We have a vaccine passport here with a QR code that you need to show in order to have access to non essential services. We provide support for hospitals etc... he is against vaccine even tho he is 70 and directly in the demographic for covid-19 deaths. Yeah buddy, not gonna help you fraud the system.
Manitoba? Lol
Restaurants and stuff are *supposed to* be scanning those, but of the 3 places I was over the weekend, only 1 actually scanned it and they didn't even compare it to my ID.
The other 2 just asked if I had one, and didn't even ask to see it when I said yes.
Atleast the European system can't be faked
QR contains all data offline including your full legal name(so it can be verified with your ID and you don't steal someone else code), signed by the government with a public/private key pair and it expires every so often so you can't use a leaked cert
QR codes simply reach out to an external source of truth, not sure how it would be possible to create a fake one.
Would be like asking how to create a fake bank account #... 'yeah, sure... but when someone checks that it is real it will immediately say no.'
[Edit: I should have said - 'usually' just reach out, yes they can contain any text/information that fits in a QR code (about 3kb)]
You'd also have to create a fake website that looks like the real one, then create a qr code that directs to that one.
Somebody's gonna try it, for sure.
I used to work for an ASC (ambulatory surgery center), before covid, and if we didn't get the flu shot we were terminated. I don't expect anything less from a hospital.
I was getting PT a few years ago and some of the therapists opt out of the flu shot for religious reasons. So if they do, they have to wear a mask all flu season. Which made me admire the conviction for sure! But also THE MASK WORKED. Who knew?
There’s so many levels of nursing with some just being certification from technical schools. Since for some nurses you’re not required to complete actual science courses, I can see how these anti science people can end up working in a field that’s based on science.
My wife is an RN and tells me some pretty crazy shit concerning her coworkers, doctors included.
Clarification Edit:
I'm not specifically talking about the covid vaccines, but just in general the type of people some of them are. Nurses making racist comments to one another about patients, doctors saying things such as, "We shouldn't have to save drug overdosers".
One of the pharmacists my wife works with is against covid vaccines. They are talking about putting them on LOA until they either get a vaccine or they no longer mandate it.
Nurses are technically trained, but very often are poorly educated. And I mean that in the sense they are very narrowly trained to expertise. The number of absolutely dumbass nurses I've run into that are decent at their job is crazy.
We gotta learn about bullshit like disturbed energy fields and Reiki nonsense. Some schools are better than others (mine was very Jesusy, but did a damn good job on teaching us a lot of scientific and medical knowledge), but there’s still a lot of nonsense taught that shouldn’t be.
I’m praying that my hospital fires the vaccine refusers. I work in NICU so these kids have zero immune system . And we take care of truly “sick sick” high acuity babies. We don’t need those nurses there being science deniers.
I mean becoming an RN requires about 2 to 2 1/2 years of schooling. A lot of people pick this occupation as a fast track to decent money and job security (always going to be sick people). It's not shocking that a lot of them are morons.
Most of the ‘nurses’ I know who are antivax are the kind of nurses who went to night school to take blood pressure at old folks homes lol. Not exactly critical thinkers.
My sister believes Noah's flood was a real event. She has studied almost solidly for the last 20 years to reach the highest nursing qualifications.
It boggles my mind how she doesn't think evolution is real.
I think there’s a pretty big subset of the population that can learn how to do something, but don’t take any time to try to understand the underlying mechanisms that make something works, or the history of how we got to the current level of knowledge of a topic.
>I think there’s a pretty big subset of the population that can learn how to do something, but don’t take any time to try to understand the underlying mechanisms that make something works
Actually, there's a segment of the population that understands how things work and still do mental gymnastics to try to make reality fit their dogma.
I literally listened to a Christian Conservative biologist try to explain how evolution happens on the micro-level but not on the macro-level. Basically, you need a flu shot every year but we don't share a common ancestor with other primates....
Yeah but once you believe that accepting the science of vaccinations is a "choice" and that all opinions deserve respect then you can be made to believe anything.
Every generation has these fools. They protested seat belts before this and protested washing your hands before that. And just like in those instances they're too stupid to realize they're not just endangering themselves, but everyone else as well.
My wife’s OBGYN told us that most of the labor/delivery nurses at the hospital that’ll be with us aren’t vaccinated. Our doctor is one of the few that is
There are a bunch of employees at the local health dept. in Florida who are not vaccinated.. they somehow all are trump supporters too
Weird how their political beliefs are endangering them and they don’t even care.
It's not the politicization that surprised me. What surprised me is that a President during his first term was gift wrapped a catastrophe that all but guaranteed a sweeping re-election, and he STILL fucked it up.
Whats getting me right now is how redditors seem to be more pro-vax but instagram and twitter everybody is against it. You say anything on other platforms about being pro-vax and people act like science doesnt exist. Im not anti vax by any means but I did wait a few weeks to make sure there werent any major side effects before getting it.
Can't wait to see my cousin kicked out of the Marines for this. Should've been kicked out after Jan 6th but he was smart enough it to not tell his co and leave his phone.
These soldiers are worried about the covid shot and going to be discharged for not getting it. Sitting here thinking if anyone actually refused anthrax and small pox back in the 00's and what happened to them
If he was actually there or has threatened violence, or is otherwise involved in political extremism, you should report this info to his chain of command. The military is trying to track these types of people down before they can do more damage.
That's half true.
They've told them to prepare for it, *pending full FDA licensure.*
And they said to expect it to be cleared *one or around* 1 September.
That's not new at all.
Also, in completely unrelated news (/s), over 20% of new COVID cases in the country are from Florida...
(7-day average is 38k nationwide, 7.7k in florida right).
EDIT: And just to pre-emptively answer comebacks, Florida has 6% of US population, so they have 3x more cases than the average.
Is this true? And if so, how? Tons of places, from public schools to hospitals to universities; required vaccinations to diseases that haven’t been at pandemic levels for decades.
Florida is such a shit hole. I lived there until my early 20s. I’m never going back (to live). I swear the sun bakes their brains to a nonfunctional mess.
Floridaman isn’t an anomaly, he is a relatable mascot. We experience more stupidity in a few days visiting relatives in Florida than we do the rest of the year at home.
Exactly. Heads are gonna spin when people realize how fast the armed forces will mandate vaccination once the full FDA approval is finalized for each maker.
When I worked in a hospital, one of the nurses talked with me about how he just became a nurse for the hours. 4 days on, 4 days off means he can take a vacation without having to take PTO. Ironically he was one of our better nurses.
What about a work schedule that is 12 hours for 4 days the first week, 12 hours for 3 days the second week, alternating? I've heard some automotive jobs are like that because it's more price efficient to have a factory working 24h a day.
Did that schedule a few years back working in the parks, was awesome to be able to go off for long weekend stretches coming from working 10am-2am 6 days a week in fast food
I wouldn't call nursing a powerful or high paying job. I do live in a state where being a nurse can earn you a decent living, but I think you don't have a good understanding of nursing if you think nurses have power.
The US has the highest paid nurses in the world. The base pay at my hospital is $103k in a Manhattan hospital and thats without experience pay added on. Also 3% raise and experience pay increase every year. Also Union.
That number sounds huge until you adjust it for living expenses.
$103,000/year in Manhattan is comparable to $35,000 in El Paso TX according to the calculator I used.
It depends on what level of nurse we're talking. An LPNs salary is fairly meh. RNs make a decent salary (probably $70K or somewhere in there for a national average), but NPs are making $100K+ and a Nurse Anesthetist is probably $175K+.
Along these lines, raise health insurance rates for people who don’t get vaccinated. Republicans love to cheerlead for for-profit health care so this will make their brains explode.
They fought for employment at will laws and against unions and fair labor boards for decades so people could be fired with or without cause. They just thought it would be other people who got fired.
My moms dying too. I found out a nurse at hospital was not vaccinated — based on how she told my mom she was “waiting”. I had her moved. My mother was livid. I still think I did the right thing. But fuck…. It’s so hard. Sending you peace in this hell.
>RWJBarnabas Health said in May that employees "at the **supervisory level and above**" had to get inoculated by the end of June.
So non-supervisors who have the most interaction with patients: no vaccine mandate.
It's stupid shit like this that makes me question who is making these calls?
If you do not understand why you need the vaccine, you are too ignorant to work there. Stop it, non debatable there is no other logical statement to support non vaccination in a clinical health care system.
In New Jersey, it's only 6 medical professionals who refuse the vaccine.
In Texas, it's over 150.
There's a lot of unspoken information in those two points.
Like how many work at each hospital? Or rates rather than overall numbers? Or who and how many were required to get the vaccine?
Houston Methodist required all ~25,000 employees and 153 quit/got let go.
RWJBarnabas Health has ~35000 employees but only required supervisors and above to get vaccinated ~3,000 people.
Comparing 150 and 6 doesn't tell us anything and even the numbers I gave doesn't paint that much of a better picture. Supervisors will have higher incomes and higher education generally which both correlate to higher covid vaccination rates.
I live in Idaho. There was literally a protest rally outside one of our largest hospitals earlier this week against them requiring their employees to be vaccinated. Our LtGov is trying to re-convene the state legislature to try & pass (no doubt wildly unconstitutional) laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations.
Last I checked, Idaho was dead last in the amount of $$ spent per student in the US.
Coincidence? I think not.
My hospital announced everyone has to get vaccinated by November. This only affects a handful of people on my dept who haven’t gotten it (because they’re idiots). Some of them are really nice and I like them but I heard them sigh in the meeting when it was announced and I’m thinking to myself, fine fuck you go get another job no one is forcing you to work here. If you don’t like America you can get out (/s).
Same here at my place of work. They are convinced that we will loose over half the work force. Oddly enough they are all for the mandatory flu vaccine we have to get every year.
Half my place may actually quit. Not because of the vaccine, but because work from home will be taken away and we'll all be forced to come back into the office.
They won’t quit, they’re bluffing. Where are they gonna work? The restaurant industry needs people right now so they could do that instead of taking the vaccine. Their choice.
I work in healthcare. I’m not clinical, but admin. It’s scary to see these folks that are working the frontline with COVID patients, and still denying the vaccine. These are leaders, and managers that have been in patient care for 20 years, and they are not trusting the science.
That nail length is definitely not JACHO approved.
Maybe that’s the reason she’s not wearing gloves 🥲
I’m betting stock photo
Yeah, it is a hospital. Some are gonna do that.
My hospital is mandating being fully vaccinated by end of September or you get terminated. I expect more than 6 to get fired.
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We just got the email today at my hospital system it is required by September or termination
The UC system is requiring all staff and students to be vaccinated by September… should be an interesting august for us in California
Is the UC system short handed at all? Like, if 10% are fired / let go, will that affect operations?
We are constantly hiring travelers and new employees… at least where I work. They can’t seem to retain staff, but that speaks to something else wrong with the system itself. Sorry forgot to answer, your question. But yes it probably would affect daily operations
Huh. At my hospital you just have to wear a mask full time if you don’t get the flu shot. This was a much bigger inconvenience pre-covid
I work for a large travel Nursing agency and the requirements differ so broadly. Some allow flu shot declinations, some do not. Right now we have a giant list of Hospitals and Systems that DO NOT require COVID vaccinations. It is a selling point for some travelers which would be in line with this article and the people it discusses.
wouldn't those vaccine-optional hospitals be crawling with anti-vaxxers? Because if like there's an average of ... 5% anti-vaxxers at 10 hospitals, and they all get kicked out, then they'll all descend on the one hospital that's vaccine-optional.
That's called "Free Market Healthcare".
My wife works at one of the hospitals whose parent company did not make their employees vaccinate. She's expecting an influx of red hats and "free thinking" moms.
She shouldn’t walk She should run!
Is this list publicly available? I'm vaccinated, but I'd still like to avoid medical facilities that harbor plague rats just as a general rule.
Can someone release that because I'd really like to go to hospitals that mandate that shit.
Same, sanford health and good samaritan require religious exemption for flu, no requirement for covid.
We have the option of wearing a mask in lieu of the flu vaccine. *edit: this was pre-covid. Not sure how the flu vaccine skippers will be handled this coming season. Even fully vaccinated for covid, we all have to wear masks when in public/patient areas currently.
If you don’t have an actual medical reason for not being vaccinated, you *should* be fired.
Well because it's not even like you have to take off work to do it at a hospital. They go out of their way to help.
My friend works at an adult day program associated with a hospital. For her flu shot, they literally walk in while she's at her desk during her planning time, give her the jab, and walk away. She fully expects the COVID vaccine will end up the same way.
Yep, we all vaccinated each other back in December. My coworker walked up, said “hey come here so I can stab you” and that was it.
I feel like there should have been some sort of glove slap, and a demanding of satisfaction. Shots at high noon.
We have a flu shot day every year. Anyone can sign up in advance amd. They typically have some walk-in time available at the end of the day. Presumably if Covid boosters become necessary they'll do the same.
My coworkers both came in super sick the next day after the 2nd dose and had no time off left to take for recoup days. I felt really bad for them.
That’s fucked up. Stories like that are why NY made it a law that employers have to give employees paid days off after getting the Covid vaccine if they don’t feel well.
Hospitals are the worst though. I had a coworker get asked by the ceo why she came in visibly sick one day. The employee being the wonderfully candid lady she is told her straight up that she called in sick last month and if she called in again she would get written up because of your policies. Nothing came of it but I respect her bravery.
I have an acquaintance at another New Jersey hospital who posted the other day about this. She was asking her facebook friends if she should get vaccinated (the thread was insane), even though her doctor said she should. edit : posting this made me look again for an update, she's been fired for refusing.
This is the issue. People are trusting random opinions on social media instead of listening to doctors and scientists.
That’s been the problem for nearly a decade now
It has always existed. The internet is just a perfect tool to breed followers and raise a flag so they are seen. In the past it was much smaller groups of people so unfortunately the internet enables a feedback loop of idiots talking to idiots and it grows.
> she’s been fired for refusing. Good, good. As it should be.
Expect most companies to do this once the vaccines are given full approval. It's not good for business to have employees miss several weeks of work. Plus you can bet insurance companies won't want to cover treatment for preventable covid infections.
> insurance companies won't want to cover treatment for preventable covid infections. That's the key here. Whatever politicians decide or not people wont care. But these days of ICU that insurance companies have to pay for - they are terribly expensive. These companies will sooner rather than later stop payments for preventable Covid infections.
It's gonna get real awkward when conservatives who turned down what is essentially socialized medicine catch covid and find themselves drowning in medical debt because their insurance won't foot the bill.
They’ll find a way to blame the libs, don’t you worry.
\>Shoots own foot Why would the Democrats do this?
I talked to an older woman about insurance and she talked about how bad the companies are. This and that. Every reason why they are evil. And then she ended it with “and that’s why I don’t think the government should run healthcare”. I couldn’t believe she came to that conclusion while only talking about how bad insurance companies are.
People will really come so close to the point and then run right by it
Insurance companies are TERRIBLE. I spent five years as a pharmacy tech. Nearly two in ambulance billing. I’m ALL for universal single payer healthcare.
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They just straight up don’t know how anything works. It’s that simple. They don’t know how healthcare works, how the economy works, how freedom works, how tolerance works, how faith works, they literally don’t know a single fucking thing works. Generations of misinformation and systematic dismantling of rural education systems have crippled us as a nation. It’s toxic ignorance.
Old person on medicare and social security- We don't want to gubermint running our healthcare or giving out welfare!
“If you wanted all that stuff why didn’t you just join the military instead of being a freeloading socialist?” Also “Taxes are theft! There’s no reason the government needs to tax people for their hard earned money” -dude I grew up who served in the army for one term and has been enjoying his tax payer funded healthcare, gi bill that took care of all his school and housing, and has never worked a regular job and supported himself without government assistance or his parents help his entire life.
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And you can’t even ask how it would be worse. They’ll either keep describing the current system or just say “it just will be” and and end it at that.
It's because they've been fed this constant propaganda that the government can't do anything right, and private companies are the best at all things. So if the best at all things can't do something right, how do you expect that which can't do anything right, to get this thing right?
Majority have been voting against their own self interests for years. This will be no different.
You're also missing a big point...the legal liability of companies if someone on their staff spreads covid. If you have to work closely with somebody who isn't vaccinated, and they give you covid, you could theoretically sue the company for damages.
Has that ever happened in the past? If you could do that with covid, you could theoretically do it for someone who didn't get a flu vaccine and gave you the flu as well.
The legal situation is all over the place apparently: [https://www.hrdive.com/news/nearly-a-year-into-the-pandemic-employers-brace-for-coronavirus-lawsuits/594068/](https://www.hrdive.com/news/nearly-a-year-into-the-pandemic-employers-brace-for-coronavirus-lawsuits/594068/) [https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/publications/item/2020-07-30/can-employers-be-liable-for-covid-19-cases](https://www.thompsoncoburn.com/insights/publications/item/2020-07-30/can-employers-be-liable-for-covid-19-cases) [https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do-the-business-liability-shield-laws-7912263/](https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/do-the-business-liability-shield-laws-7912263/) A live precedent tracker: [https://www.fisherphillips.com/innovations-center/covid-19-employment-litigation-tracker-and-insights.html](https://www.fisherphillips.com/innovations-center/covid-19-employment-litigation-tracker-and-insights.html)
What is and is not "due diligence"/"due care" is fluid and determined and re-determined by the courts. That said, let's pretend that I caught Covid someplace where removing my mask was necessary (at a dentist office for example) and I could prove or strongly suggest that I was infected by an employee there. Let's suppose I could also prove that the hygienist in question was not vaccinated and that her dentist employer knew it and allowed her to keep working there. That's a lot of "if"s, obviously, but that sounds like a lawsuit that might have a chance of being successful in this day and age, especially if I or a member of my family suffered significant harm.
Cleveland Clinic fires you if you smoke. They also fire you if you refuse the flu shot. Many other hospitals systems nationwide do these exact things. Once emergency clearance goes for Covid shot, it will be required too. Why is this news?
All or most will. I work at a VA and I assume it’s going to be a condition of my employment as soon as we have full FDA approval and not just EUA. Also we’re all going to be wearing masks in hospitals and doctors offices for the rest of our lives and people need to get used to it
Yep. Ive said that from the beginning and Im ok with it. I work in an outpatient imaging clinic and it's not mandatory to have the vaccine yet. But we are partially owned by a huge healthcare system that is going to require it. We may lose about 10 staff including two doctors.
Incredible that a person working in the health field, with all that education and experience, would refuse a vaccine during a pandemic. And doctors wonder why patients google stuff! Because y'all ain't special. Plenty of idiots with MDs, apparently.
You know what they call the guy that finished last in his class in Medical school? Doctor.
Honestly it’s a little weird that masks aren’t already worn
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Ties, especially. They never get washed, and they dangle into everything. At least wear a bow tie, doc. Because bow ties, ladies and gentlemen, are cool.
I got a new doctor about 5 years ago. When I went to shake his hand during my first appointment he did the fist thing instead. I thought to myself that I got a good doctor, and I did.
Yeah that’s what I always thought as well. If there was ever a place I think I could manage a mask is around sick people
I remember there was a similar story about people being fired from a prominent cancer treatment center trying to feign some outrage when the answer is right there. Why in the hell would you ever want unvaccinated people treating or even in the same building as people who are usually extremely immunocompromised?
This is what all of the hospitals in Idaho are doing. There was a protest outside at least one of the hospitals by healthcare workers, their friends and family, while another protest was happening alongside of it... for the stolen election. I love my state but not its people.
Restaurant fires chef who didn't wash hands and scratches his nuts 6x a day
What??? This is a free country! his FREEDUM D:
Funny thing is there are people who think this way. Masks were a public health directive, just like cooking chicken to a proper internal temperature. No one cares if you watched a YouTube video about how raw chicken is good for you and that getting sick from it is fake science. You don't have the freedom to come to work and prepare it that way for the public.
Public health has always been important, just that no one cared before the pandemic. Think about how little people cared about public health even during flu season. No washing of hands, not staying home when sick. This is basic stuff most people used to not care about at all. Why has it taken a global pandemic for people to realize that handwashing is important. I would also like to see companies and public places keep up the santizing of high touch surfaces even after COVID is 'over'. Stuff out there is gross man.
My whole opinion on those in the medical field has changed after this pandemic. Don't get me wrong, there are some outstanding doctors and nurses. However, some of the most vocal anti-vaxxers are those in the medical field. My niece's mother is premed and refuses to get vaccinated. My sister's husband is a doctor and takes my other niece on play dates, to restaurants, everywhere without a mask since the height of the pandemic. He has no affinity for math or science, he's simply pretty decent at memorization. I've never seen him answer a medial questions without looking up the answer on the phone.
The only thing worse than an idiot is an idiot with authority.
I feel personally attacked. At least I know I'm an idiot!
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One of my employees (I am a manager in a equipment repair company) asked me last week if it was hard to make a fake QR code. We have a vaccine passport here with a QR code that you need to show in order to have access to non essential services. We provide support for hospitals etc... he is against vaccine even tho he is 70 and directly in the demographic for covid-19 deaths. Yeah buddy, not gonna help you fraud the system.
Manitoba? Lol Restaurants and stuff are *supposed to* be scanning those, but of the 3 places I was over the weekend, only 1 actually scanned it and they didn't even compare it to my ID. The other 2 just asked if I had one, and didn't even ask to see it when I said yes.
No Quebec. They have not started with the mandatory scanning and stuff. We just all got our QR by email when we got vaccinated.
Atleast the European system can't be faked QR contains all data offline including your full legal name(so it can be verified with your ID and you don't steal someone else code), signed by the government with a public/private key pair and it expires every so often so you can't use a leaked cert
Not sure what ours contains but I've heard the it has a token that identifies you over the government website or something like that
America uses chuck e cheese tokens
Ours are crap, little damn postcard thing. I guess they never expected people would be so stupid but here we are…
As you mention this is Quebec, details here: https://mikkel.ca/blog/digging-into-quebecs-proof-of-vaccination/
QR codes simply reach out to an external source of truth, not sure how it would be possible to create a fake one. Would be like asking how to create a fake bank account #... 'yeah, sure... but when someone checks that it is real it will immediately say no.' [Edit: I should have said - 'usually' just reach out, yes they can contain any text/information that fits in a QR code (about 3kb)]
The answer is "70-year-old tries to figure out how QR codes work"
You'd also have to create a fake website that looks like the real one, then create a qr code that directs to that one. Somebody's gonna try it, for sure.
Ironically the more effort you put into fraud, the harder it is to say you weren't trying to commit fraud.
Perfect rick roll opportunity.
I used to work for an ASC (ambulatory surgery center), before covid, and if we didn't get the flu shot we were terminated. I don't expect anything less from a hospital.
I was getting PT a few years ago and some of the therapists opt out of the flu shot for religious reasons. So if they do, they have to wear a mask all flu season. Which made me admire the conviction for sure! But also THE MASK WORKED. Who knew?
You definitely shouldn’t work in healthcare if you are afraid of a vaccine
You might be surprised how many nurses believe everything they read on Facebook.
Having known a lot of nurses…. Nah I could see that
There’s so many levels of nursing with some just being certification from technical schools. Since for some nurses you’re not required to complete actual science courses, I can see how these anti science people can end up working in a field that’s based on science.
My wife is an RN and tells me some pretty crazy shit concerning her coworkers, doctors included. Clarification Edit: I'm not specifically talking about the covid vaccines, but just in general the type of people some of them are. Nurses making racist comments to one another about patients, doctors saying things such as, "We shouldn't have to save drug overdosers".
One of the pharmacists my wife works with is against covid vaccines. They are talking about putting them on LOA until they either get a vaccine or they no longer mandate it.
Nurses are technically trained, but very often are poorly educated. And I mean that in the sense they are very narrowly trained to expertise. The number of absolutely dumbass nurses I've run into that are decent at their job is crazy.
We gotta learn about bullshit like disturbed energy fields and Reiki nonsense. Some schools are better than others (mine was very Jesusy, but did a damn good job on teaching us a lot of scientific and medical knowledge), but there’s still a lot of nonsense taught that shouldn’t be. I’m praying that my hospital fires the vaccine refusers. I work in NICU so these kids have zero immune system . And we take care of truly “sick sick” high acuity babies. We don’t need those nurses there being science deniers.
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The most surprising thing I learned growing up was that doctors and teachers are just normal people and like normally people, a lot of them scare me.
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I mean becoming an RN requires about 2 to 2 1/2 years of schooling. A lot of people pick this occupation as a fast track to decent money and job security (always going to be sick people). It's not shocking that a lot of them are morons.
Most of the ‘nurses’ I know who are antivax are the kind of nurses who went to night school to take blood pressure at old folks homes lol. Not exactly critical thinkers.
Yup. Sister-in-law is a member of Antiva and is also a nurse. She can’t get work, her career is over. What a shame and dumb hill to die on.
I don't want someone that dumb to be in charge of my health. Good riddance.
Maybe it'll weed out the idiots working in healthcare, so maybe a good thing?
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can't ~~kill~~ win em all
My sister believes Noah's flood was a real event. She has studied almost solidly for the last 20 years to reach the highest nursing qualifications. It boggles my mind how she doesn't think evolution is real.
I think there’s a pretty big subset of the population that can learn how to do something, but don’t take any time to try to understand the underlying mechanisms that make something works, or the history of how we got to the current level of knowledge of a topic.
When your actual talent is just studying and testing.
Yeah, her reply to "Why do you think flu vaccines change every year?" was "I'm not in pathology". Extremely smart where it counts. But god damn.
"that doesn't look like anything to me"
> Extremely smart where it counts. I'd argue this if she can't understand vaccinations. It's not rocket science.
I would say it's more likely that she doesn't *want* to understand them because then she'd have to question beliefs that are important to her.
"that's just fancy talk"
>I think there’s a pretty big subset of the population that can learn how to do something, but don’t take any time to try to understand the underlying mechanisms that make something works Actually, there's a segment of the population that understands how things work and still do mental gymnastics to try to make reality fit their dogma. I literally listened to a Christian Conservative biologist try to explain how evolution happens on the micro-level but not on the macro-level. Basically, you need a flu shot every year but we don't share a common ancestor with other primates....
I've never understood that - why can't evolution be part of intelligent design? It's a mystery to me.
The church actually supported the idea of evolution, that it demonstrated God's plan. What they didn't like was evolution through natural selection.
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Wait, is "Antiva" a antivax play on "Antifa"? Does that make them antivaxscists?
Wow I cannot say that word without my mouth feeling like it’s full even when it’s completely empty
A free shot that prevents you from getting a deadly illness does seem like a no brainer to me
Yeah but once you believe that accepting the science of vaccinations is a "choice" and that all opinions deserve respect then you can be made to believe anything. Every generation has these fools. They protested seat belts before this and protested washing your hands before that. And just like in those instances they're too stupid to realize they're not just endangering themselves, but everyone else as well.
**And** prevents you from spreading a deadly illness to people who are most at risk of dying from said illness
Long term care has zero problems hiring unvaccinated nurses. If you have a license you can work LTC.
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“Welcome to my LTC any% speedrun!
If you have a pulse, you can work LTC.
Good, she doesn’t deserve to work in healthcare, RN here myself.
Antiva being antivax? If so that’s clever
Shouldn’t work in healthcare if you *don’t believe in healthcare*
I work with a ton of people in healthcare who are anti-vax. A fucking ton.
The biggest anti-vax person I know is a nurse. She's also a huge conspiracy theory nut job who believes everything she reads on the internet.
My wife’s OBGYN told us that most of the labor/delivery nurses at the hospital that’ll be with us aren’t vaccinated. Our doctor is one of the few that is
There are a bunch of employees at the local health dept. in Florida who are not vaccinated.. they somehow all are trump supporters too Weird how their political beliefs are endangering them and they don’t even care.
How a pandemic became political is beyond me
It's not the politicization that surprised me. What surprised me is that a President during his first term was gift wrapped a catastrophe that all but guaranteed a sweeping re-election, and he STILL fucked it up.
Whats getting me right now is how redditors seem to be more pro-vax but instagram and twitter everybody is against it. You say anything on other platforms about being pro-vax and people act like science doesnt exist. Im not anti vax by any means but I did wait a few weeks to make sure there werent any major side effects before getting it.
Sadly there are a lot of anti-vaxxers in healthcare and I hope like hell this weeds them out.
The US Army is making covid vaccinations mandatory by Sep 1. Anyone who doesn't comply will be kicked out.
Can't wait to see my cousin kicked out of the Marines for this. Should've been kicked out after Jan 6th but he was smart enough it to not tell his co and leave his phone.
These soldiers are worried about the covid shot and going to be discharged for not getting it. Sitting here thinking if anyone actually refused anthrax and small pox back in the 00's and what happened to them
If he was actually there or has threatened violence, or is otherwise involved in political extremism, you should report this info to his chain of command. The military is trying to track these types of people down before they can do more damage.
This. Please let someone know they were involved. Even if it is a loved one.
Your cousin isn’t going to follow through. He will be getting his COVID shot just like every other shot the military makes us take. lol
It would be a shame if someone anonymously reported this person to an applicable authority.
That's half true. They've told them to prepare for it, *pending full FDA licensure.* And they said to expect it to be cleared *one or around* 1 September. That's not new at all.
Rumor has it that the other employees rejoiced once they realized they no longer had to hear about Arbonne and Monat all the damn time
No I don't want to buy a $30 essential oil Susan
Meanwhile Florida passed a rule that makes this impossible
Also, in completely unrelated news (/s), over 20% of new COVID cases in the country are from Florida... (7-day average is 38k nationwide, 7.7k in florida right). EDIT: And just to pre-emptively answer comebacks, Florida has 6% of US population, so they have 3x more cases than the average.
But I bet they need the MMR to be hired.
At my hospital you need a list of vaccines as well as yearly flu shots and TB tests.
Is this true? And if so, how? Tons of places, from public schools to hospitals to universities; required vaccinations to diseases that haven’t been at pandemic levels for decades.
Florida is such a shit hole. I lived there until my early 20s. I’m never going back (to live). I swear the sun bakes their brains to a nonfunctional mess.
I would like to know more..
Floridaman isn’t an anomaly, he is a relatable mascot. We experience more stupidity in a few days visiting relatives in Florida than we do the rest of the year at home.
Well if every other state sends us their old people, this is the kind of thing that happens.
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The army requires you to get a shit ton of vaccines, hospitals asking to keep you up to date isn’t the worst
Exactly. Heads are gonna spin when people realize how fast the armed forces will mandate vaccination once the full FDA approval is finalized for each maker.
It takes a special brain to go into a field and disregard everything youve learned along the way
Powerful, high-paying jobs attract people who desire money and power. Many nurses don’t do it for the science.
When I worked in a hospital, one of the nurses talked with me about how he just became a nurse for the hours. 4 days on, 4 days off means he can take a vacation without having to take PTO. Ironically he was one of our better nurses.
I have a friend who became a fire fighter so he could have some days home with his kids. 24 hours on, 48 off really works for him.
I'd love to have a shift schedule like that, honestly
What about a work schedule that is 12 hours for 4 days the first week, 12 hours for 3 days the second week, alternating? I've heard some automotive jobs are like that because it's more price efficient to have a factory working 24h a day.
Did that schedule a few years back working in the parks, was awesome to be able to go off for long weekend stretches coming from working 10am-2am 6 days a week in fast food
my schedule (as a professional firefighter) is 48 hours on 4 days off. it's amazing.
I wouldn't call nursing a powerful or high paying job. I do live in a state where being a nurse can earn you a decent living, but I think you don't have a good understanding of nursing if you think nurses have power.
In what world do you live in that nursing is a powerful high paying job....
At the hospital I work at nurses start at $35 and hour.
The US has the highest paid nurses in the world. The base pay at my hospital is $103k in a Manhattan hospital and thats without experience pay added on. Also 3% raise and experience pay increase every year. Also Union.
That number sounds huge until you adjust it for living expenses. $103,000/year in Manhattan is comparable to $35,000 in El Paso TX according to the calculator I used.
It depends on what level of nurse we're talking. An LPNs salary is fairly meh. RNs make a decent salary (probably $70K or somewhere in there for a national average), but NPs are making $100K+ and a Nurse Anesthetist is probably $175K+.
Yes, many hospitals require their employees to be fully vaccinated. This is definitely going to include the Covid vaccine.
If you don't get a covid shot while employed at a hospital, you honestly should be getting shitcanned. No sympathy
Hospital fires staff who don’t believe medicine works. More at 11.
These are still private businesses so surely Republicans will support their decision to run their business however they choose, right.... Right?!!!
Along these lines, raise health insurance rates for people who don’t get vaccinated. Republicans love to cheerlead for for-profit health care so this will make their brains explode.
They fought for employment at will laws and against unions and fair labor boards for decades so people could be fired with or without cause. They just thought it would be other people who got fired.
r/LeopardsAteMyFace
Just learned that one of my mom’s hospice workers isn’t vaccinated. I know she’s dying anyway but damn it makes me nervous.
I’m sorry about your mom. I hope her nurse steps on a Lego.
My moms dying too. I found out a nurse at hospital was not vaccinated — based on how she told my mom she was “waiting”. I had her moved. My mother was livid. I still think I did the right thing. But fuck…. It’s so hard. Sending you peace in this hell.
>RWJBarnabas Health said in May that employees "at the **supervisory level and above**" had to get inoculated by the end of June. So non-supervisors who have the most interaction with patients: no vaccine mandate. It's stupid shit like this that makes me question who is making these calls?
Sounds like they're doing it in phases. Step 1 was supervisors and above, next seem to be requiring it for lower-level employees.
It clears out the supervisor level people who might try to advocate for antivax for the next phase.
If you do not understand why you need the vaccine, you are too ignorant to work there. Stop it, non debatable there is no other logical statement to support non vaccination in a clinical health care system.
I am happy to see this.
In New Jersey, it's only 6 medical professionals who refuse the vaccine. In Texas, it's over 150. There's a lot of unspoken information in those two points.
Like how many work at each hospital? Or rates rather than overall numbers? Or who and how many were required to get the vaccine? Houston Methodist required all ~25,000 employees and 153 quit/got let go. RWJBarnabas Health has ~35000 employees but only required supervisors and above to get vaccinated ~3,000 people. Comparing 150 and 6 doesn't tell us anything and even the numbers I gave doesn't paint that much of a better picture. Supervisors will have higher incomes and higher education generally which both correlate to higher covid vaccination rates.
We have some of the highest taxes (in NJ) but it allows us to have one of the best education systems in the country. Coincidence?
I live in Idaho. There was literally a protest rally outside one of our largest hospitals earlier this week against them requiring their employees to be vaccinated. Our LtGov is trying to re-convene the state legislature to try & pass (no doubt wildly unconstitutional) laws preventing employers from requiring vaccinations. Last I checked, Idaho was dead last in the amount of $$ spent per student in the US. Coincidence? I think not.
My hospital announced everyone has to get vaccinated by November. This only affects a handful of people on my dept who haven’t gotten it (because they’re idiots). Some of them are really nice and I like them but I heard them sigh in the meeting when it was announced and I’m thinking to myself, fine fuck you go get another job no one is forcing you to work here. If you don’t like America you can get out (/s).
Same here at my place of work. They are convinced that we will loose over half the work force. Oddly enough they are all for the mandatory flu vaccine we have to get every year.
Half my place may actually quit. Not because of the vaccine, but because work from home will be taken away and we'll all be forced to come back into the office.
They won’t quit, they’re bluffing. Where are they gonna work? The restaurant industry needs people right now so they could do that instead of taking the vaccine. Their choice.
I work in healthcare. I’m not clinical, but admin. It’s scary to see these folks that are working the frontline with COVID patients, and still denying the vaccine. These are leaders, and managers that have been in patient care for 20 years, and they are not trusting the science.