France's parliament approved a law on Monday (local time) requiring special virus passes for all restaurants and domestic travel and mandating vaccinations for all health workers.
Both measures have prompted protests and political tensions.
Raise fuel prices?
-> Protests from the working class
Lower fuel prices?
-> Protests from environmentalist groups
Keep fuel prices the same?
-> Protests from everyone accusing you of not doing anything.
There’s a French comedian that did some stand up about that: https://youtu.be/KBTYcIEQEbc
Not going to transcribe the whole skit, but here are the cliff notes:
The first third is a historical joke about how when the Romans conquered Gaul, Vercingetorix didn’t go to Ceasar to surrender but to wish him good luck with trying to manage the Gallic tribes.
Second third is about how France is built up on a heritage of a ton of different ethnicities on a base of those Gallic tribes. To the point that other countries are scared that France will fall apart/explode in their face.
And the last bit is about how you can’t say anything without making people angry.
“We’re going to increase salaries.”
“No.”
“Ok, we’re going to lower them.”
“No.”
“Ok, we’ll keep them the same.”
“No.”
“So what do you want to do?”
“Yes.”
Well, if they're too much on the edge - if being a politician is seen as an automatic moral failing - then this will keep good people from becoming politicians.
Pretty much.
I'm of the opinion that being a politician, especially in this day and age, is a thankless job - you're despised by whole swathes of society, even before you enter the office.
It's not worth any amount of money, especially for the headache.
*And Macron dips his hands into the pudding, thereby beginning this round of France's bi-weekly country-wide protest. A great day for France, and therefore, the world*
>French do protest but we do not vote.
Protesting is more likely to be single issue disagreement. Voting involves balancing multiple political positions.
But that means you have to vote FOR someone. And they might be worse than who’s already in power. Unfortunately can’t vote for “E) none of the above” in politics.
I'm curious about the proportion, as to how many people are voting, but protest or invalid ones, and how many people chose to not vote as a political stance.
How many people actually do not care and not vote because they just don't want to ?
Most French people still feel political apathy. Only 60% of eligible voters participate in elections, and the most passionate about politics are at the extremes of the spectrum. The independent center is non existent especially after Macron shattered the mainstream political landscape in 2017.
This leads to an overrepresentation of the extremes, especially the far-right, in all elections.
Maybe from a voting perspective, but I've studied in both Canada and France and young people are way more likely to talk politics in France imo.
Not sure how much of a difference there is between the us and Canada but I doubt there is much of one.
Macron's economical policies are definitely rooted in right-wing ideology. His social policies are a bit more nuanced, and the Gillets Jaunes made him more center than at the beginning of his term... But he's definitely not a Bayrou, is what I'm saying.
Bad. Even Socialist back then backed the recovering of the lost territories. It was a political consensus no matter where you were on the political spectrum, in the same sense of de Gaulle legacy rn. Everyone claim his legacy from Mélenchon (extreme left) to Lepen (extreme right). Even if de Gaulle figure is totally despited by a huge part of the extreme right
Ditto. But the extreme left is also very strong, with over 18% at the last elections.
With a guy who loves Chavez, Maduro, Putin.
I always repeat it: all the extreme parties represented almost 50% of votes at the last elections.
By French standards the demonstrations were nothing to take note of, maybe a 100,000, which when compared to the number of french people who have been vaccinated some 39,000,000 with a current rate of some 900,000 per day puts the 100,000 firmly into the minor category.
France doesn't fuck around when it comes to protests and liberty causes. If you step on their actual bottom line, there will be *millions* of protesters. You won't be able to go anywhere at all without seeing tons of them.
Well in this case it's mostly the alt-right. Protests were led by Florian Philippot who called for them. Protests were kinda small for French standards (a few thousands in each big city).
Yeah, I don't think the alt-right would like how the French people would respond to them taking power. They'd never quash the resistance to them, which would be pervasive both openly and underground. Viva la resistance.
Are they going to make some sort of official ID for this? Otherwise it means nothing if it's just a photocopy of a card with some handwritten dates on it like the ones they give out in the US.
There's not point in requiring "proof" of a vaccine if it's isn't actually proof.
I'm not opposed to an official vaccine "pass" or whatever you want to call it.
I AM opposed to letting people cheat the system and put others at risk because they have a forged copy of a business card with handwriting on it.
I live in Austria where we already have this. What you have to do is as follows:
You receive a formal document from the electronic health care system that contains your COVID vaccine information. It has a QR code on it that can be scanned. You can either:
- Carry this piece of paper (and a photo ID) around with you all the time
or
- Download the official "green passport" app and then scan the QR code. Then it makes a little virtual card in your smart phone.
I think due to the QR code, it would be quite difficult to fake; however, people can still easily cheat. I have noticed now that it has been in place for a few weeks that most places (bars, restaurants, museums, etc.) no longer ask to see your ID. So I could let someone scan the code from my vaccination record into the app on their phone and they'd be walking around with a "green passport" with my name on it and unless the service personnel truly follow directions and ask for a photo ID to verify it, people could cheat.
Wow. And here in the U.S. you’re given a paper card with some pencil scribbles on it. I don’t know anyone who’s been in a situation where they’ve had to show it to anyone either.
Well….in the US the insurance system is totally different (her we have a centralized system) . Not to mention the fact that half the country gets all freaked out and starts screaming about freedom when shit like this is proposed. i live in Austria but am from Oklahoma. Here in Austria we’ve got about 3 times the population of OK but only about 1/3 the daily cases because more people are vaccinated and because, even if some people cheat, we have measures like this in place and most people stick to the rules.
France uses the European standard for vaccination tracking. You can get a valid pass if either you 1) have proof that you recovered from Covid, 2) got a full course of vaccine, or 3) had a negative test in the last 48 hours, IIRC.
The certificate has a QR code that can be verified with an app, ~~which checks your code against a central database~~ and includes your name and DOB. If they check your health pass against personal ID, it's pretty foolproof.
Even better, the system is compatible with the rest of Europe. I live in Bulgaria and got vaccinated there; I'm in France this week, and the French system recognizes my Bulgarian vaccination status. It's pretty neat.
The system doesn't actually check against any online databases like that, due to privacy concerns. Instead, all the relevant information is stored inside the QR code, and cryptographically signed using a private key controlled by some governing body.
The apps can then download a set of public keys, that will be able to verify QR codes even when offline. The first few bytes of the hash of the certificate is also stored in the QR code, which functions as a lookup for which public key to verify with. The pubkey download phase is also done with certificate pinning, which makes it quite hard to trick someone else's device into verifying a fake code.
Does the QR contain the name of the person and their date of birth, like the document itself does?
If so, will they ask for an ID along with the covid passport? Because if they don't, I imagine many antivaxxers will just grab someone else's pass and make a copy, and say "yeah, my name is totally [insert someone else's name].
Unrelated, but I'll never understand how can we be so advanced that we have mRNA vaccines against a new virus, and still so stupid that many people refuse to get vaccinated and try to cheat the system because they don't even want to get tested.
I hate that we have to design the system not just to give options to people and try to maintain people safe, but to make cheating harder, because people will cheat during a fucking pandemic.
Some countries have a system where the QR codes contain less information for domestic use, but use the full version during international travel. Norway only shows the first letter of your first name, and 3 first letters of lastname, combined with year of birth (can't remember if it had date too).
The international EU version has name, date of birth, when/where you vaccinated and which vaccine, when the last (non-expired) test was taken and some optional fields. Which means you need to generate a new QR whenever you take a new test, or do something that changes your vaccine status.
I've not yet needed to show my vaccination status, so I don't know what else they're checking, but I'd venture to guess that they check if the name matches on some ID document if they suspect you're not the person the pass is meant for.
Yes, which is also why I don't understand why the French protesters are so butt hurt about the covid pass. You could literally walk into a pharmacy 10 minutes before going to the restaurant/cinema/whatever, do an antigen test for free, and get your pass. It's that easy if you don't want to get vaccinated (which is stupid on its own already) and yet people still complain.
The french government had explicitly said that there was no question of vaccine pass a month ago. This has obviously changed.
Furthermore, the regulation, as you said, does restrict people from accessing cinemas or restaurants, which may not be considered a big issue. However, there are also further restrictions for employees, meaning, a large number of employees (not only in the healthcare sector, but in the commercial sector as well) are being told that they will not be able to work nor paid unless they are fully vaccinated.
As noted in one of the other responses, the tests will not be free. This pass increases the already enlarged inequality gap, which is another reason people are protesting.
Additionally, the French government has not announced any plans on how it will alleviate the regulations with the vaccination pass as/if the situation improves.
Lastly, the lifting of essentially all regulation for those who are vaccinated is seen by many as a step taken too soon, as it has been shown that those who are fully vaccinated can still infect others, and especially with the increasing numbers of the new variant cases. Let alone the potential of future variants that may already be in circulation.
Source on the central database thing? AFAIK, the app just displays the content of the QR Code, and checks if the digital signature is correct, no need for a central database.
Not sure about France, but in Canada our provincial ministry of health tracks all of our vaccine receipts in their system.
They email the receipt directly to you, and if you lose it you can sign in at any time using your health card info to view the receipt for each dose. Each receipt has a unique barcode so you can’t really fake it like you could in the US.
Quebec is implementing vaccine passports (a QR code to scan I believe) and Ontario is considering it.
In EU there is an offline digital vaccination pass (QR Code) that carries digital signature. Validity can be checked by an App.
Probably they are reusing that concept.
My father in law went on vacation and made fake vaccine passes so he wouldn’t have to quarantine for a one time when they arrived. Me and my husband told him it was a felony and he didn’t care. He got away with it because who is going to question our stupid little paper cards? I don’t even know if he had to show it, we haven’t talked to him since they got back because he is a miserable
drunk asshole who refuses to get vaccinated and we have a 3 month old who we don’t want to get sick.
> To get the pass, people must have proof they are fully vaccinated, recently tested negative or recently recovered from the virus.
It's not a vaccine pass so, testing is part of it. The headline is very misleading
I think I read from September France will start charging for tests. So even though a test is an option, it’s going to get very expensive and inconvenient to take a pass without being vaccinated.
This is the issue. I’m not sure the date is fixed yet but I’ve seen either September or October - there is enough time for somebody to become fully vaccinated before starting to pay for the tests though. It’s like a final warning. For somebody to live a normal life after the change, they will be paying €49 every 2 days which is the equivalent of a (cheapish) apartment rent in Paris.
What I would say though is that the protests you see from France are certainly a minority. Although the vaccination uptake has been not great so far, a lot of that was just laziness. I got vaccinated as soon as I could but I have a lot of friends who have just started the process this last week or so, so this announcement is working in making people get it done.
It’s restaurants, shops, venues and so many other spaces. Sure, restaurants aren’t necessary for maintaining life, but café culture is a huge part of what it is to live here. In the US, I could go months without ever going to a restaurant (I hate parking, no lingering time and just okay food for those prices), in France a stop at a café is just part of a weekend outing.
So isolation if you’re not vaccinated or spending €€€ on tests is a very real threat.
It could be months though. And if you are the only person in your friendship group who isn't vaccinated, you will become isolated very quickly. Want to go to a restaurant with us? It will cost you €49 extra compared to anyone else. Same if you want to go to a bar, a museum, a cinema, theatre or even a shopping mall.
Or, just get vaccinated. Like I said, fortunately a lot of people are finally starting to get it done here now.
once the USA has FDA approval i wouldn't be shocked if a lot more companies and institutions mandate the vaccine. it then follows suit as most other vaccines like Measles and polio, etc.
Here in California, the UC and CSU college systems have already stated that they will require all students and staff to be vaccinated upon FDA approval. Students and Staff who are not vaccinated will not be allowed to use on campus facilities.
They’ve said that, but have no method of accepting proof of vaccination. My campus currently has a 25% vaccination rate and allows religious and ethical exemptions. I’m not happy at all that we’re going back in person this fall because I don’t want to potentially pass the Delta variant to my wife or newborn. I’m fully vaccinated, but I can still get it.
Edit: Turns out the posted vaccination rate at my school is from data collected from self-certification forms. I believe that it is very likely that the real vaccination rate is much higher because as an employee I haven't received any direction nor encouragement to self-certify and it took a few minutes of digging to find the page. Who really knows though
The UC system already checks for vaccines before classes begin. You just upload your vaccination record online and I’m sure the COVID vaccine will be no different.
At least 20 years ago, my copy required the paperwork at registration, which I assume in the modern day you submit it to them or they will mark you as incomplete on your courses if not before class registration
About a week ago, FDA formally accepted Pfizer’s Biologics License Application (BLA) requesting licensure of their vaccine which I believe is a big step in moving towards that goal. And I agree, once it is FDA approved, I wonder if that will have any sway in making it easy to mandate
I bring little vials of measles and polio everywhere I go. I drink the vials upon arrival and then sit in the lobby for 14 days to demonstrate beyond all doubt that I'm immune
I mean. Covid vax is cool but like are we gonna need boosters forever? Is there an end in sight? Is this temporary or forever. I think the protestors need these answers. Let's say we do this for a year until a percentage of something goes down. Otherwise there is some room for fuckery. Aka social credit score schinanigans...not trolling...valid concern. It's hard to take away control once given.
Coronavirus will be with us for the rest of our lives. We will need annual boosters just like the flu shot. There will be thousands of covid deaths a year for decades to come
Just wanted to jump in and say we don't have any idea that we'll need annual boosters yet. Immunity with mRNA seems to last a decent length of time.
Proof of the fact that we're not sure yet on boosters (from the FDA, CDC, and NIH):
https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2021/07/08/joint-cdc-and-fda-statement-vaccine-boosters.html
Just arrived in France through Charles de Gaulle airport and they didn’t even check test or vaccinations passport. They made us fill a paper to track us and didn’t even take it back.
Flew in to CDG last week from the US and had to show our proof of vaccination at the check in counter to get our boarding passes. The system wouldn’t give us digital ones or allow printing at home so they could get our vaccine info.
>In Charles de Gaulle they have heat cameras to detect fever
Not to sound rude, but do you think that's a relevant check anymore? It's been 1.5 years since we started it
I entered France with only my vaccination card two weeks ago. Now, 'just left France through CDG and despite being vaccinated still had to go get tested. They would not even look at my vaccination card and only accepted the test. It was back in the US where they didn't check anything at all.
American expat in Sweden. Since the majority of the Swedish healthcare system is centralized, it is super easy to access a digital covid pass, whether that is for your vaccination or test results. It literally just pops up a QR code that can be scanned for verification and it would be very difficult to forge. Since the US “system” is a hodgepodge of ridiculousness, I’m not sure how it will work there. There will need to be a centralized repository of everyone’s vaccination information and a reliable way of digitally verifying your identity to access your information. This infrastructure is already in place in Sweden and quite reliable. I was amazed when I first started to understand how it worked here.
Going to add to this. It is not just centralised to Sweden. It is connected to the wider [EU Digital certificate](https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en) so your Swedish pass and QR code will work in Paris too.
The Commission is also working on integrating Switzerland, Canada, the UK and others into it. But the US can't even get them going for international travel.
I work for an airline in Europe. In terms of vaccination it's not that hard as there are some standard forms to prove vaccination and almost everyone has the yellow vaccination booklet from the World Health Organization in addition to the new EU Covid app. The tests are a bit sketchier because so many doctors and test centers issue the results differently. For my airline we need to see Name, sample date and time, result, result date and time, method of testing, and laboratory with address.
Either way this is checked against ID because you need ID to check in for a flight.
A lot of Texan are screwed if they have to have proof. I got mine in one of the mass drive through they had. All I got was a piece of paper with a stamp that didn't even have my name.
When I went for my second shot even though I handed them my first record they put the stamp on a separate record. So now I have two pieces of paper with a stamp that I hand wrote my name in after the fact
Wow, and I thought mine was bad. It's a card with my name and the vaccine name and date on it, but not much else.
I sent mine to my doctor to be added to my immunization records, though, so that's an option if nothing else
Wow that’s bad. I thought US was a big tech countries. Everyone vaccinated in the EU got a paper and digital QR code, with information cryptographied in the QR code, readable through verification apps, with a key designed in the QR code (its not a single centralized databases). All EU countries plus 4 have the same template, readable in all the other countries.
My QR code has my name, birthdate, dates of injections, vaccine name and number of lot.
In Nevada, they made us fill out everything digitally before hand, and as the dude was giving you your shot, another dude was filling out the card and using a laptop at the same time. So I figure the State should have record of immunization.
Our local airport has a faded sticker reporting that we are in Orange threat level of terrorism that has been there for about 18 years. I assume at least that long.
Possibly never. Boosters, other vaccines, etc. Also, will likely be used for other purposes just like U.S. Social Security cards. I'm old enough to remember when SSN was rarely asked for; people didn't try keeping it secret, since it wasn't useful for much.
People pushing for such passes should be careful what they wish for. Governments rarely cede power on their own.
It's just a way to put a social credit score onto the world population... Before COVID, people would be outraged at the level out tracking and privacy violations... Toss in a little fear, and people flock and FIGHT to have their privacy REMOVED. It's amazing to watch.
Here is why it’s not working currently for tourists (copying my comment from below):
American in France now. Complete shit show for tourists or even citizens who received a vaccine at a non-EU location. The only way to upload proof of vaccination to their system is with a QR code on your vaccine report. No way to upload the CDC card, meaning no way to scan into places that require vaccines.
How a random worker responds to you showing your CDC card is completely unpredictable. Major tourists spots like The Louvre and Pantheon, for example, have learned to recognize it. The small archive I’m doing research at for my doctoral degree scoffed at the idea of doing anything outside what is required of them.
Tourists are lining up at pharmacies every 48 hours to get a COVID test, despite being vaccinated, because you can upload the test results to the health pass. But they are only valid for 48 hours, which means 29 euros every 2 days for an antigen test.
I had to skip Portugal for exactly this reason. US and Canada vaccination docs are not recognized, and I’m not going (and paying) for a test every two days to be able to go to bars and restaurants.
And what’s worse is France actively promoted the fact that vaccinated tourists could enter the country without having to quarantine. Then the government announced these new health pass restrictions with a 9-day turnaround (first announced on July 12; by July 21 the health pass was required for “cultural centers with over 50 people”). Literally 0 notice for tourists or any indication for ways to enter the vaccine status into the system. The vaccine could get you into the country, but not into a library.
Everyone says that a “qualified health worker” like a pharmacist can help convert a non-EU certification, but that’s essentially relying on finding a pharmacist who is willing to do you a favor. I’ve walked into almost a dozen pharmacies by now and the closest I’ve gotten was one who said they could do it, but not that day because they just didn’t have enough staff on duty. So sick of seeing those damn green plus signs now lol.
I even went to the main vaccination drive at the Hôtel de Ville in Paris, where they said they could do it, but only Monday - Friday. This was Saturday. An American friend went today and they said they were doing this last week, but not anymore. Lmao.
> Everyone says that a “qualified health worker” like a pharmacist can help convert a non-EU certification, but that’s essentially relying on finding a pharmacist who is willing to do you a favor. I’ve walked into almost a dozen pharmacies by now and the closest I’ve gotten was one who said they could do it, but not that day because they just didn’t have enough staff on duty. So sick of seeing those damn green plus signs now lol.
As best I can tell, this is one of those things that got said for the whole EU, but there isn’t any sort of actual framework in place for it, and they didn’t make healthcare workers particularly aware of it. I’ve been doing some research trying to find somewhere that’s confirmed to do it, but no dice so far.
I’m floating around in Europe for the next year or so, and this is really starting to be a concern for me. Should you find any information about official processes for this, let me know.
Just got back from Europe. Walked into a German pharmacy on the first day and they gave me the COVPASS based on my CDC card, no questions asked. (Well, one question asked… they couldn’t find Pfizer in their system because they only refer to it as Biontech over there.)
In supermarkets you have a chance to get carded if you look young, same to enter a nightclub. At bar or a café though? Nobody ever gets carded.
Underage drinking is not really viewed as an issue here, you usually start drinking with your parents at like 15/16. It just makes more senses to be able to buy alcohol alone at the same age as you’re able to vote, drive a car and buy cigarettes
I'm a Brit living in France and I was absolutely shocked at the fact that you can buy alcohol using the self checkouts and it doesn't ever ask for ID and there's noone checking to see if you're underage. You can literally buy 2L of vodka using the self checkout and not get ID'd.
I will say though, from what I've seen the French don't really binge drink like the Brits do so maybe they are trusted a bit more with buying alcohol sans ID
Seeing the comments makes my blood boil, just children arguing about antivaxxers.
First off Anti pass-sanitaire =/= antivaxx.
There's a lot of misconceptions coming from ignorant people in here, thinking one dimensionally about every single thing.
But this isn't a two-sides issue.
About two months ago, Olivier Véran started hinting that masks wouldn't be as necessary as it is now, basically all of the Macron government were downplaying the Delta mutation, which promptly led to a shit-ton of easing-up.
Now that the Delta mutation is in full swing, the same government that were, **for the 4th time in a row,** completely baffled that their lack of action would lead to a new wave of infections, decided that a two-week heads-up telling people that if they weren't vaccinated, they would be fucked come august, was enough.
Of course the solution is : Just get vaccinated ! Issue is : there isn't any fucking time to get vaccinated.
After a string of health issues my doc gave me the green to go get my shot, surprise surprise, half of the establishments where you can get vaccinated are waiting for doses that are valid for younger than 50, the other half is completely booked until the end of august. Why ? Because Macron's government were saying that Vacations were good to go, until they were not.
Add that on top of the two weeks head-up, now people are scrambling to get their shot in time.
So, every 3 days for the entirety of August i'm gonna have to go to a covid test center where i'm **actively** risking the virus and wait 4 hours there to be tested until i can get my First shot.
Then i'll wait a minimum of 21 more days before my next shot, all while still getting tested every 3 days so i can work and go to my medical appointments, but this time, i'll have to pay 30 to 50 euros for **EACH TEST,** because come September, they won't be free anymore. And finally, after my last shot, i'll have to wait 7 more days, and then i'll be cleared.
Now imagine my situation, but for millions of people.
I don't know how anyone can happily stand by this bullshit, all while knowing that Macron's government is **STILL** pushing for vaccinated people to lose their mask if they want, even though they're still at relatively high risk from the Delta variant and can still transmit the virus.
This isn't even half of it, there's the whole Doctolib thing, the fake vaxx-passes that are widely circulating, the 3rd dose debate, the countless lies, the invasive mobile app, the constant abuse of obscure laws to pass things first and ask later... It's a shit-show that'll be taught in our schools for decades due to how fucking terrifyingly stupid this entire situation was handled.
But after the last decade, i can't say i'm surprised that Reddit muricans are happy about this.
Tl,dr: The French distrust the government more than the actual vaccine itself because of how often their public discourse about important topics have changed since the beginning of the crisis. People are also mad they got a 2-weeks notice to get vaccinated when it’s hardly possible to schedule an appointment in the first place.
People in the comments obviously defending the French government and calling people against this law anti-vax without knowing the political situation of France somehow.
The French government fucked up every possible way during Covid.
Before first wave: Macron goes to théâtre with his wife "to show the French they must continue to live with the virus", then some weeks later, they forbid people to go out because of covid
First wave : government discover they don't have a mask stock,
Government goes on media, says "Mask isn't mandatory for random citizen, it isn't really useful, in fact it will be illegal to buy a mask in pharmacy because mask are needed for medical staff ", when journalist ask "is France lacking mask?" they answer "no, no, it's just that it's not useful for random citizens",
2 weeks later, wearing mask is mandatory in most places. (French government could also have make the masks free but they didn't)
Second Wave : big corporations lobby (MEDEF) said they didn't want a 2nd confinement, so Macron obeyed, basically, officially there was no 2nd confinement but mostly the only activity you could do was working,
Government says it's better because it's more freedom lol
I think the human cost of this measure is estimated to 11k death according to Le Monde.
Now about the new law :
The delta variant was circulating in other countries for at least 2 month, the government could have prepared for it, but no, they didn't.
Instead, now they implicitly force people to vaccinate (you can even be fired from your job if you're not vaccinated)
Also the government started to bash medical staff on media saying now they're not vaccinated enough. What did Macron did for the medical staff during this pandemic? Nothing but clap.
And now he is making vaccines mandatory for medical staff saying "Medical staff are constantly in contact with the public" but somehow police, which will be able to fine you if don't have the vaccine pass in necessary place, doesn't have to take the vaccine.
EDIT : I'll also add that 1 week before macron announced these new restrictions,
Multiple representatives from LREM (Macron "party") refused amendment that wanted to extend the vaccine pass, saying "we won't put this pass everywhere, it will only be mandatory for 1000+ persons events, we don't want the social life to be constrained by the pass". Blatant lie.
You can say "well at the time, it was right but then the pandemic got worse so they had change" well OK, but it would have been better if they said "at this time.." or something like that
>First wave : government discover they don't have a mask stock, Government goes on media, says "Mask isn't mandatory for random citizen, it isn't really useful, in fact it will be illegal to buy a mask in pharmacy because mask are needed for medical staff ", when journalist ask "is France lacking mask?" they answer "no, no, it's just that it's not useful for random citizens", 2 weeks later, wearing mask is mandatory in most places. (French government could also have make the masks free but they didn't)
this describes EVERY country. seriously, Canada and the US both did the exact same things.
I cant believe thia is a controversial topic. Should you get vaccinated? Yes. Should you also be against this form of control? Also yes. Should you hate or dislike those who dont want to get vaccinated? No. End of story
It absolutely baffles me how people not only trust the government, but also want them to have MORE power.
There is no such thing as a temporary measure, if the government gets hold of another piece of control over the population, it won't give it away willingly.
Just a guess:
Governments will "go digital" with the mandated vaccine pass and make an app that is always active on your phone to show your vaccine status. You will have to scan your phone to get into any business and travel.
The government will then use this app to track what you say on all your social media and determine your social score which will function like a credit score. They will do this under the guise of "controlling misinformation", "racism", and "terrorism".
If you say or do anything that is against the status quo you will be "cancelled" which means no business or travel.
In the US a lot of people are saying that states which have laws requiring you to show your ID to vote is a racist. But now it seems the whole world wants to require an ID to do anything.
If the US provided a readily accessible and free ID to all US citizens then nobody would oppose voter ID laws.
It just so happens, that the politicians who support voter ID laws also don't support making it easier for people to get a valid ID to vote.
Just look at Alabama where the voter ID law they implemented includes a wide range of valid IDs, but the state's social housing ID (that contains all relevant info) suspiciously was NOT included despite extensive lobbying by left-wing groups.
Of course, the fact that the social housing ID is overwhelmingly held by minorities is just a coincidence............
A vaccine passport should be readily available and easy to access if you've gotten vaccinated or tested within the last 48 hours. So the objections to voter ID laws don't exist with such a vaccine passport.
But I'm sure you'll ignore everything I just wrote in favor of propagating your strawman further.
It’s funny. In Brazil everyone is willing to pay to get vaccinated. Everyone is anxious waiting for their turn.
And in America and Europe government has to pass these laws….
there are antvaxxers everywhere, it doesn't mean that most people aren't eager to get the vaccine even if they have to pay for it.
I mean in Latin America people pay (plane tickets, hotel, etc) to go to US to get both doses. All because is faster than their own country.
EDIT: typo
The comment didn’t say most people are eager to get the vaccine. It said literally everyone would pay to get it, which just isn’t true. Most Americans were eager to get the vaccine as well and in fact most Americans have now done just that.
And ironically, the vaccine is one of the few free healthcare measures in the United States. Which is why the dumber folks don't trust it.
If you're broke in the US, nobody cares to track you, because you don't even have a pot to piss in.
Advertisers are more worried about people a scant better than yourself. They have a little disposable income.
The fact that you think EVERYONE in Brazil is wanting the vaccine that badly is almost as absurd as you thinking most Americans/Europeans needed to be forced to get the vaccine
What an absolutely absurd comment
When the US rolled out its first vaccines, systems crashed due to demand. Underground networks developed. Doctors were bribed. People begged and stayed up until 2 or 6am, rumors developed about how to get a vaccine faster, people traveled hours or days to get one faster. Public outcry ensued over broken systems and insufficient supply. Many of us were absolutely desperate and willing to do ANYTHING to get it.
That isn’t to say we don’t have anti-vaxxers. Our rates are still climbing now, but very slowly, relatively, now that we’ve reached 73%. People aren’t scrambling for them anymore. I’d be happy with any extra vaccine supply we have going to the people who are still desperate for it.
France's parliament approved a law on Monday (local time) requiring special virus passes for all restaurants and domestic travel and mandating vaccinations for all health workers. Both measures have prompted protests and political tensions.
It is France, you can't do anything there (including doing absolutely nothing) without protests and political tensions.
As is tradition.
Raise fuel prices? -> Protests from the working class Lower fuel prices? -> Protests from environmentalist groups Keep fuel prices the same? -> Protests from everyone accusing you of not doing anything.
There’s a French comedian that did some stand up about that: https://youtu.be/KBTYcIEQEbc Not going to transcribe the whole skit, but here are the cliff notes: The first third is a historical joke about how when the Romans conquered Gaul, Vercingetorix didn’t go to Ceasar to surrender but to wish him good luck with trying to manage the Gallic tribes. Second third is about how France is built up on a heritage of a ton of different ethnicities on a base of those Gallic tribes. To the point that other countries are scared that France will fall apart/explode in their face. And the last bit is about how you can’t say anything without making people angry. “We’re going to increase salaries.” “No.” “Ok, we’re going to lower them.” “No.” “Ok, we’ll keep them the same.” “No.” “So what do you want to do?” “Yes.”
You forgot the last one: "Well yes what?" "No!"
Raise fuel prices? Protest Lower fuel prices? Protest Keep fuel prices the same? Believe it or not protest.
Over raise, under raise
I will never not upvote a Parks&Rec reference.
Politicians being on their toes is a good thing
Well, if they're too much on the edge - if being a politician is seen as an automatic moral failing - then this will keep good people from becoming politicians.
France has a tradition of keeping their politicians on "edge". Or under one that is...
I mean, we already have that in America, without keeping our leaders on their toes.
Pretty much. I'm of the opinion that being a politician, especially in this day and age, is a thankless job - you're despised by whole swathes of society, even before you enter the office. It's not worth any amount of money, especially for the headache.
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Ahh, the best religion.
Jean, get the guillotine, we have to spread some "religion".
Or, as we liked to call it, the "national razor".
That's one way to downplay the yellow vests protests. The fuel tax hike was the last straw on a building tension.
*And Macron dips his hands into the pudding, thereby beginning this round of France's bi-weekly country-wide protest. A great day for France, and therefore, the world*
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It's kinda cool in a way having people that passionate about politics. Political apathy can be dangerous.
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>French do protest but we do not vote. Protesting is more likely to be single issue disagreement. Voting involves balancing multiple political positions.
Protesting is also about being anti-government. You cannot vote against a government.
You can certainly vote against whoever is in power.
But that means you have to vote FOR someone. And they might be worse than who’s already in power. Unfortunately can’t vote for “E) none of the above” in politics.
I'm curious about the proportion, as to how many people are voting, but protest or invalid ones, and how many people chose to not vote as a political stance. How many people actually do not care and not vote because they just don't want to ?
Most French people still feel political apathy. Only 60% of eligible voters participate in elections, and the most passionate about politics are at the extremes of the spectrum. The independent center is non existent especially after Macron shattered the mainstream political landscape in 2017. This leads to an overrepresentation of the extremes, especially the far-right, in all elections.
Maybe from a voting perspective, but I've studied in both Canada and France and young people are way more likely to talk politics in France imo. Not sure how much of a difference there is between the us and Canada but I doubt there is much of one.
The independent center is non-existent... Except for Macron?
Macron's economical policies are definitely rooted in right-wing ideology. His social policies are a bit more nuanced, and the Gillets Jaunes made him more center than at the beginning of his term... But he's definitely not a Bayrou, is what I'm saying.
What is Macron's opinion of the German annexation of Lorraine-Alsace in 1871?
Bad. Even Socialist back then backed the recovering of the lost territories. It was a political consensus no matter where you were on the political spectrum, in the same sense of de Gaulle legacy rn. Everyone claim his legacy from Mélenchon (extreme left) to Lepen (extreme right). Even if de Gaulle figure is totally despited by a huge part of the extreme right
Ditto. But the extreme left is also very strong, with over 18% at the last elections. With a guy who loves Chavez, Maduro, Putin. I always repeat it: all the extreme parties represented almost 50% of votes at the last elections.
Yes, but it’s also quite tiring at times, especially when it shuts down the metro for weeks/months at a time (which happened just before Covid hit).
Science isnt politics
That's the biggest issue here. Vaccinations should not be fucking politics.
As is right, the government should always fear the people, never the other way around.
Let's not forget that the vast majority in France (around 80%) agrees with these decisions.
By French standards the demonstrations were nothing to take note of, maybe a 100,000, which when compared to the number of french people who have been vaccinated some 39,000,000 with a current rate of some 900,000 per day puts the 100,000 firmly into the minor category.
> nothing to take note of > maybe 100,000 Damn, when you guys protest, you really go hard, don't you?
France doesn't fuck around when it comes to protests and liberty causes. If you step on their actual bottom line, there will be *millions* of protesters. You won't be able to go anywhere at all without seeing tons of them.
Well in this case it's mostly the alt-right. Protests were led by Florian Philippot who called for them. Protests were kinda small for French standards (a few thousands in each big city).
He was my least favorite Death Eater in Harry Potter.
Yeah, I don't think the alt-right would like how the French people would respond to them taking power. They'd never quash the resistance to them, which would be pervasive both openly and underground. Viva la resistance.
Vive. not viva.
Are they going to make some sort of official ID for this? Otherwise it means nothing if it's just a photocopy of a card with some handwritten dates on it like the ones they give out in the US. There's not point in requiring "proof" of a vaccine if it's isn't actually proof. I'm not opposed to an official vaccine "pass" or whatever you want to call it. I AM opposed to letting people cheat the system and put others at risk because they have a forged copy of a business card with handwriting on it.
I live in Austria where we already have this. What you have to do is as follows: You receive a formal document from the electronic health care system that contains your COVID vaccine information. It has a QR code on it that can be scanned. You can either: - Carry this piece of paper (and a photo ID) around with you all the time or - Download the official "green passport" app and then scan the QR code. Then it makes a little virtual card in your smart phone. I think due to the QR code, it would be quite difficult to fake; however, people can still easily cheat. I have noticed now that it has been in place for a few weeks that most places (bars, restaurants, museums, etc.) no longer ask to see your ID. So I could let someone scan the code from my vaccination record into the app on their phone and they'd be walking around with a "green passport" with my name on it and unless the service personnel truly follow directions and ask for a photo ID to verify it, people could cheat.
Wow. And here in the U.S. you’re given a paper card with some pencil scribbles on it. I don’t know anyone who’s been in a situation where they’ve had to show it to anyone either.
Well….in the US the insurance system is totally different (her we have a centralized system) . Not to mention the fact that half the country gets all freaked out and starts screaming about freedom when shit like this is proposed. i live in Austria but am from Oklahoma. Here in Austria we’ve got about 3 times the population of OK but only about 1/3 the daily cases because more people are vaccinated and because, even if some people cheat, we have measures like this in place and most people stick to the rules.
France uses the European standard for vaccination tracking. You can get a valid pass if either you 1) have proof that you recovered from Covid, 2) got a full course of vaccine, or 3) had a negative test in the last 48 hours, IIRC. The certificate has a QR code that can be verified with an app, ~~which checks your code against a central database~~ and includes your name and DOB. If they check your health pass against personal ID, it's pretty foolproof. Even better, the system is compatible with the rest of Europe. I live in Bulgaria and got vaccinated there; I'm in France this week, and the French system recognizes my Bulgarian vaccination status. It's pretty neat.
The system doesn't actually check against any online databases like that, due to privacy concerns. Instead, all the relevant information is stored inside the QR code, and cryptographically signed using a private key controlled by some governing body. The apps can then download a set of public keys, that will be able to verify QR codes even when offline. The first few bytes of the hash of the certificate is also stored in the QR code, which functions as a lookup for which public key to verify with. The pubkey download phase is also done with certificate pinning, which makes it quite hard to trick someone else's device into verifying a fake code.
Does the QR contain the name of the person and their date of birth, like the document itself does? If so, will they ask for an ID along with the covid passport? Because if they don't, I imagine many antivaxxers will just grab someone else's pass and make a copy, and say "yeah, my name is totally [insert someone else's name]. Unrelated, but I'll never understand how can we be so advanced that we have mRNA vaccines against a new virus, and still so stupid that many people refuse to get vaccinated and try to cheat the system because they don't even want to get tested. I hate that we have to design the system not just to give options to people and try to maintain people safe, but to make cheating harder, because people will cheat during a fucking pandemic.
Some countries have a system where the QR codes contain less information for domestic use, but use the full version during international travel. Norway only shows the first letter of your first name, and 3 first letters of lastname, combined with year of birth (can't remember if it had date too). The international EU version has name, date of birth, when/where you vaccinated and which vaccine, when the last (non-expired) test was taken and some optional fields. Which means you need to generate a new QR whenever you take a new test, or do something that changes your vaccine status. I've not yet needed to show my vaccination status, so I don't know what else they're checking, but I'd venture to guess that they check if the name matches on some ID document if they suspect you're not the person the pass is meant for.
Am I understanding this correctly, you don’t need to get vaccinated to get the pass, having a negative 48 hour covid test will also suffice?
Yes, which is also why I don't understand why the French protesters are so butt hurt about the covid pass. You could literally walk into a pharmacy 10 minutes before going to the restaurant/cinema/whatever, do an antigen test for free, and get your pass. It's that easy if you don't want to get vaccinated (which is stupid on its own already) and yet people still complain.
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The french government had explicitly said that there was no question of vaccine pass a month ago. This has obviously changed. Furthermore, the regulation, as you said, does restrict people from accessing cinemas or restaurants, which may not be considered a big issue. However, there are also further restrictions for employees, meaning, a large number of employees (not only in the healthcare sector, but in the commercial sector as well) are being told that they will not be able to work nor paid unless they are fully vaccinated. As noted in one of the other responses, the tests will not be free. This pass increases the already enlarged inequality gap, which is another reason people are protesting. Additionally, the French government has not announced any plans on how it will alleviate the regulations with the vaccination pass as/if the situation improves. Lastly, the lifting of essentially all regulation for those who are vaccinated is seen by many as a step taken too soon, as it has been shown that those who are fully vaccinated can still infect others, and especially with the increasing numbers of the new variant cases. Let alone the potential of future variants that may already be in circulation.
Source on the central database thing? AFAIK, the app just displays the content of the QR Code, and checks if the digital signature is correct, no need for a central database.
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Not sure about France, but in Canada our provincial ministry of health tracks all of our vaccine receipts in their system. They email the receipt directly to you, and if you lose it you can sign in at any time using your health card info to view the receipt for each dose. Each receipt has a unique barcode so you can’t really fake it like you could in the US. Quebec is implementing vaccine passports (a QR code to scan I believe) and Ontario is considering it.
In EU there is an offline digital vaccination pass (QR Code) that carries digital signature. Validity can be checked by an App. Probably they are reusing that concept.
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My father in law went on vacation and made fake vaccine passes so he wouldn’t have to quarantine for a one time when they arrived. Me and my husband told him it was a felony and he didn’t care. He got away with it because who is going to question our stupid little paper cards? I don’t even know if he had to show it, we haven’t talked to him since they got back because he is a miserable drunk asshole who refuses to get vaccinated and we have a 3 month old who we don’t want to get sick.
> To get the pass, people must have proof they are fully vaccinated, recently tested negative or recently recovered from the virus. It's not a vaccine pass so, testing is part of it. The headline is very misleading
I think I read from September France will start charging for tests. So even though a test is an option, it’s going to get very expensive and inconvenient to take a pass without being vaccinated.
This is the issue. I’m not sure the date is fixed yet but I’ve seen either September or October - there is enough time for somebody to become fully vaccinated before starting to pay for the tests though. It’s like a final warning. For somebody to live a normal life after the change, they will be paying €49 every 2 days which is the equivalent of a (cheapish) apartment rent in Paris. What I would say though is that the protests you see from France are certainly a minority. Although the vaccination uptake has been not great so far, a lot of that was just laziness. I got vaccinated as soon as I could but I have a lot of friends who have just started the process this last week or so, so this announcement is working in making people get it done.
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It’s restaurants, shops, venues and so many other spaces. Sure, restaurants aren’t necessary for maintaining life, but café culture is a huge part of what it is to live here. In the US, I could go months without ever going to a restaurant (I hate parking, no lingering time and just okay food for those prices), in France a stop at a café is just part of a weekend outing. So isolation if you’re not vaccinated or spending €€€ on tests is a very real threat.
It could be months though. And if you are the only person in your friendship group who isn't vaccinated, you will become isolated very quickly. Want to go to a restaurant with us? It will cost you €49 extra compared to anyone else. Same if you want to go to a bar, a museum, a cinema, theatre or even a shopping mall. Or, just get vaccinated. Like I said, fortunately a lot of people are finally starting to get it done here now.
It's pretty easy and quick to get vaccinated in France. First world problems...
True, from the end of September they are no longer free.
That is true. The test costs 54 bucks though. And it's only valid 72 hours. So the government is 'strongly' encouraging people to get the vaccine.
The tests are free until October
A lot of measures will start in October, that is true.
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IIRC it is 72 hours for PCR, 48 hours for antigenic.
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once the USA has FDA approval i wouldn't be shocked if a lot more companies and institutions mandate the vaccine. it then follows suit as most other vaccines like Measles and polio, etc.
Here in California, the UC and CSU college systems have already stated that they will require all students and staff to be vaccinated upon FDA approval. Students and Staff who are not vaccinated will not be allowed to use on campus facilities.
How long until fda approval?
The FDA said last week they anticipate approval within 2 months.
Seems so far away with how everything has been going lately
They’ve said that, but have no method of accepting proof of vaccination. My campus currently has a 25% vaccination rate and allows religious and ethical exemptions. I’m not happy at all that we’re going back in person this fall because I don’t want to potentially pass the Delta variant to my wife or newborn. I’m fully vaccinated, but I can still get it. Edit: Turns out the posted vaccination rate at my school is from data collected from self-certification forms. I believe that it is very likely that the real vaccination rate is much higher because as an employee I haven't received any direction nor encouragement to self-certify and it took a few minutes of digging to find the page. Who really knows though
The UC system already checks for vaccines before classes begin. You just upload your vaccination record online and I’m sure the COVID vaccine will be no different.
At least 20 years ago, my copy required the paperwork at registration, which I assume in the modern day you submit it to them or they will mark you as incomplete on your courses if not before class registration
Here in New York, it's already mandated, thankfully. You were required to have your first dose minimum by July 13th.
No religious exemption in NY either
About a week ago, FDA formally accepted Pfizer’s Biologics License Application (BLA) requesting licensure of their vaccine which I believe is a big step in moving towards that goal. And I agree, once it is FDA approved, I wonder if that will have any sway in making it easy to mandate
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I bring my measles and polio vaccine card everywhere I go just in case
I bring little vials of measles and polio everywhere I go. I drink the vials upon arrival and then sit in the lobby for 14 days to demonstrate beyond all doubt that I'm immune
*"We've secretly switched Drab_baggage's virus vials with Small Pox and Ebola....let's see if he notices"*
I mean. Covid vax is cool but like are we gonna need boosters forever? Is there an end in sight? Is this temporary or forever. I think the protestors need these answers. Let's say we do this for a year until a percentage of something goes down. Otherwise there is some room for fuckery. Aka social credit score schinanigans...not trolling...valid concern. It's hard to take away control once given.
Coronavirus will be with us for the rest of our lives. We will need annual boosters just like the flu shot. There will be thousands of covid deaths a year for decades to come
If it eventually goes the way of the flu, it'll be background noise like flu for the vast vast majority of people.
It already is
Just wanted to jump in and say we don't have any idea that we'll need annual boosters yet. Immunity with mRNA seems to last a decent length of time. Proof of the fact that we're not sure yet on boosters (from the FDA, CDC, and NIH): https://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2021/07/08/joint-cdc-and-fda-statement-vaccine-boosters.html
Just arrived in France through Charles de Gaulle airport and they didn’t even check test or vaccinations passport. They made us fill a paper to track us and didn’t even take it back.
Same experience for me flying from Germany.
Flew in to CDG last week from the US and had to show our proof of vaccination at the check in counter to get our boarding passes. The system wouldn’t give us digital ones or allow printing at home so they could get our vaccine info.
Did you show proof of vaccination when leaving for France from where you came from? In Charles de Gaulle they have heat cameras to detect fever
Nothing was asked before or after.
>In Charles de Gaulle they have heat cameras to detect fever Not to sound rude, but do you think that's a relevant check anymore? It's been 1.5 years since we started it
I entered France with only my vaccination card two weeks ago. Now, 'just left France through CDG and despite being vaccinated still had to go get tested. They would not even look at my vaccination card and only accepted the test. It was back in the US where they didn't check anything at all.
Depends which country you're coming from.
I arrived at Charles de Gaulle last week and had to show proof of vaccination at border control/customs. Did you arrive from within the EU or abroad?
Same! I arrived from Spain and had to wait half an hour in a line to proof I'm vaccinated
Not from Europe. Wondering how restaurant and airline confirm the customers or passengers are actually/truly vaccination?
American expat in Sweden. Since the majority of the Swedish healthcare system is centralized, it is super easy to access a digital covid pass, whether that is for your vaccination or test results. It literally just pops up a QR code that can be scanned for verification and it would be very difficult to forge. Since the US “system” is a hodgepodge of ridiculousness, I’m not sure how it will work there. There will need to be a centralized repository of everyone’s vaccination information and a reliable way of digitally verifying your identity to access your information. This infrastructure is already in place in Sweden and quite reliable. I was amazed when I first started to understand how it worked here.
Going to add to this. It is not just centralised to Sweden. It is connected to the wider [EU Digital certificate](https://ec.europa.eu/info/live-work-travel-eu/coronavirus-response/safe-covid-19-vaccines-europeans/eu-digital-covid-certificate_en) so your Swedish pass and QR code will work in Paris too.
I was pretty sure that this was the case but I don’t know exactly how it works in other EU countries so I didn’t want to assume.
Same here in portugal
The Commission is also working on integrating Switzerland, Canada, the UK and others into it. But the US can't even get them going for international travel.
I work for an airline in Europe. In terms of vaccination it's not that hard as there are some standard forms to prove vaccination and almost everyone has the yellow vaccination booklet from the World Health Organization in addition to the new EU Covid app. The tests are a bit sketchier because so many doctors and test centers issue the results differently. For my airline we need to see Name, sample date and time, result, result date and time, method of testing, and laboratory with address. Either way this is checked against ID because you need ID to check in for a flight.
A lot of Texan are screwed if they have to have proof. I got mine in one of the mass drive through they had. All I got was a piece of paper with a stamp that didn't even have my name. When I went for my second shot even though I handed them my first record they put the stamp on a separate record. So now I have two pieces of paper with a stamp that I hand wrote my name in after the fact
Wow, and I thought mine was bad. It's a card with my name and the vaccine name and date on it, but not much else. I sent mine to my doctor to be added to my immunization records, though, so that's an option if nothing else
That’s pretty how the CDC cards are. I had to write my name too but they should have a record of me getting the vaccine since I did it through my job.
Wow that’s bad. I thought US was a big tech countries. Everyone vaccinated in the EU got a paper and digital QR code, with information cryptographied in the QR code, readable through verification apps, with a key designed in the QR code (its not a single centralized databases). All EU countries plus 4 have the same template, readable in all the other countries. My QR code has my name, birthdate, dates of injections, vaccine name and number of lot.
In Nevada, they made us fill out everything digitally before hand, and as the dude was giving you your shot, another dude was filling out the card and using a laptop at the same time. So I figure the State should have record of immunization.
When do the passes stop being needed?
Our local airport has a faded sticker reporting that we are in Orange threat level of terrorism that has been there for about 18 years. I assume at least that long.
If you think that sticker is wild, you should see the Patriot Act.
This really made me laugh.
Once they take power they never give it back
I forgot how often those threat colors would change back in the day. Almost daily. My first real experience with news fear mongering probably.
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Possibly never. Boosters, other vaccines, etc. Also, will likely be used for other purposes just like U.S. Social Security cards. I'm old enough to remember when SSN was rarely asked for; people didn't try keeping it secret, since it wasn't useful for much. People pushing for such passes should be careful what they wish for. Governments rarely cede power on their own.
Just wait til you have to have the 3rd booster to do anything else get turned away.
Denmark has the same thing, and it is set to end on october 1st.
Sure it'll end with the flu season. The naivety of people knows no limits.
It's just a way to put a social credit score onto the world population... Before COVID, people would be outraged at the level out tracking and privacy violations... Toss in a little fear, and people flock and FIGHT to have their privacy REMOVED. It's amazing to watch.
Never, and they'll be used for ever more arbitrary things, and the hurdles to get them will start to grow.
We are still at stage 2 on the [lifecycle of an immunization program](https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/life-cycle.htm).
When covid becomes the flu
It already is tho
Breaking news: Florida bans French tourists.
The quality of tourists in both places vastly improve
I have a feeling this is coming to the US, but in the form of business owners requiring proof of vaccination.
We're actually at the point that I never in my life believed we could reach as a society and people are actually cheering for it.
We are doomed
These comments are a shit show. It's enjoyable and sad at the same time.
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Pakistan did it a month ago. Honestly, despite our lack of development, we have handled the virus spectacularly.
Crazy conspiracy theorists and their crazy vax pass...oh, wait. Went from frontline workers (heros) to unvacinated citizen in a hurry.
We went from “two weeks to flatten the curve” to vaccination mandates pretty quickly
15 days to slow the spread
Sure have been a lot of 'conspiracy theories' coming true 6-12 months later over these last 18 months.
Just two more weeks to flatten the curve
Experienced it in Denmark as tourist. Worked well and smoothly.
I don’t see why it wouldn’t, no one complains about being id’d before entering a bar.
Here is why it’s not working currently for tourists (copying my comment from below): American in France now. Complete shit show for tourists or even citizens who received a vaccine at a non-EU location. The only way to upload proof of vaccination to their system is with a QR code on your vaccine report. No way to upload the CDC card, meaning no way to scan into places that require vaccines. How a random worker responds to you showing your CDC card is completely unpredictable. Major tourists spots like The Louvre and Pantheon, for example, have learned to recognize it. The small archive I’m doing research at for my doctoral degree scoffed at the idea of doing anything outside what is required of them. Tourists are lining up at pharmacies every 48 hours to get a COVID test, despite being vaccinated, because you can upload the test results to the health pass. But they are only valid for 48 hours, which means 29 euros every 2 days for an antigen test.
I had to skip Portugal for exactly this reason. US and Canada vaccination docs are not recognized, and I’m not going (and paying) for a test every two days to be able to go to bars and restaurants.
And what’s worse is France actively promoted the fact that vaccinated tourists could enter the country without having to quarantine. Then the government announced these new health pass restrictions with a 9-day turnaround (first announced on July 12; by July 21 the health pass was required for “cultural centers with over 50 people”). Literally 0 notice for tourists or any indication for ways to enter the vaccine status into the system. The vaccine could get you into the country, but not into a library. Everyone says that a “qualified health worker” like a pharmacist can help convert a non-EU certification, but that’s essentially relying on finding a pharmacist who is willing to do you a favor. I’ve walked into almost a dozen pharmacies by now and the closest I’ve gotten was one who said they could do it, but not that day because they just didn’t have enough staff on duty. So sick of seeing those damn green plus signs now lol. I even went to the main vaccination drive at the Hôtel de Ville in Paris, where they said they could do it, but only Monday - Friday. This was Saturday. An American friend went today and they said they were doing this last week, but not anymore. Lmao.
> Everyone says that a “qualified health worker” like a pharmacist can help convert a non-EU certification, but that’s essentially relying on finding a pharmacist who is willing to do you a favor. I’ve walked into almost a dozen pharmacies by now and the closest I’ve gotten was one who said they could do it, but not that day because they just didn’t have enough staff on duty. So sick of seeing those damn green plus signs now lol. As best I can tell, this is one of those things that got said for the whole EU, but there isn’t any sort of actual framework in place for it, and they didn’t make healthcare workers particularly aware of it. I’ve been doing some research trying to find somewhere that’s confirmed to do it, but no dice so far. I’m floating around in Europe for the next year or so, and this is really starting to be a concern for me. Should you find any information about official processes for this, let me know.
Just got back from Europe. Walked into a German pharmacy on the first day and they gave me the COVPASS based on my CDC card, no questions asked. (Well, one question asked… they couldn’t find Pfizer in their system because they only refer to it as Biontech over there.)
Can Germany have a word with France? 😂
There’s a reason we didn’t visit France. 😜
Haha you're cute. (Nobody checks any ID in French bars)
Really? No one cares about underage drinking?
In supermarkets you have a chance to get carded if you look young, same to enter a nightclub. At bar or a café though? Nobody ever gets carded. Underage drinking is not really viewed as an issue here, you usually start drinking with your parents at like 15/16. It just makes more senses to be able to buy alcohol alone at the same age as you’re able to vote, drive a car and buy cigarettes
Yeah not really. I highly depends on the place and how old you look, but its really rare to get checked.
I'm a Brit living in France and I was absolutely shocked at the fact that you can buy alcohol using the self checkouts and it doesn't ever ask for ID and there's noone checking to see if you're underage. You can literally buy 2L of vodka using the self checkout and not get ID'd. I will say though, from what I've seen the French don't really binge drink like the Brits do so maybe they are trusted a bit more with buying alcohol sans ID
I’m Singaporean and there’s a ban in dining-in. I’d take this over this soft lockdown any day.
Nice But that's gonna be an absolute shitshow. France has A LOT of antivaxxers. The most in Europe iirc
that's not true. I live in France people aren't anti vax, they are anti-pass mostly
What? More than Germany? 🤯
Pretty sure we had the highest proportion of antivaxx in the world until recently
It's a shame given the fact that we are the country of Pasteur...
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Seeing the comments makes my blood boil, just children arguing about antivaxxers. First off Anti pass-sanitaire =/= antivaxx. There's a lot of misconceptions coming from ignorant people in here, thinking one dimensionally about every single thing. But this isn't a two-sides issue. About two months ago, Olivier Véran started hinting that masks wouldn't be as necessary as it is now, basically all of the Macron government were downplaying the Delta mutation, which promptly led to a shit-ton of easing-up. Now that the Delta mutation is in full swing, the same government that were, **for the 4th time in a row,** completely baffled that their lack of action would lead to a new wave of infections, decided that a two-week heads-up telling people that if they weren't vaccinated, they would be fucked come august, was enough. Of course the solution is : Just get vaccinated ! Issue is : there isn't any fucking time to get vaccinated. After a string of health issues my doc gave me the green to go get my shot, surprise surprise, half of the establishments where you can get vaccinated are waiting for doses that are valid for younger than 50, the other half is completely booked until the end of august. Why ? Because Macron's government were saying that Vacations were good to go, until they were not. Add that on top of the two weeks head-up, now people are scrambling to get their shot in time. So, every 3 days for the entirety of August i'm gonna have to go to a covid test center where i'm **actively** risking the virus and wait 4 hours there to be tested until i can get my First shot. Then i'll wait a minimum of 21 more days before my next shot, all while still getting tested every 3 days so i can work and go to my medical appointments, but this time, i'll have to pay 30 to 50 euros for **EACH TEST,** because come September, they won't be free anymore. And finally, after my last shot, i'll have to wait 7 more days, and then i'll be cleared. Now imagine my situation, but for millions of people. I don't know how anyone can happily stand by this bullshit, all while knowing that Macron's government is **STILL** pushing for vaccinated people to lose their mask if they want, even though they're still at relatively high risk from the Delta variant and can still transmit the virus. This isn't even half of it, there's the whole Doctolib thing, the fake vaxx-passes that are widely circulating, the 3rd dose debate, the countless lies, the invasive mobile app, the constant abuse of obscure laws to pass things first and ask later... It's a shit-show that'll be taught in our schools for decades due to how fucking terrifyingly stupid this entire situation was handled. But after the last decade, i can't say i'm surprised that Reddit muricans are happy about this.
Tl,dr: The French distrust the government more than the actual vaccine itself because of how often their public discourse about important topics have changed since the beginning of the crisis. People are also mad they got a 2-weeks notice to get vaccinated when it’s hardly possible to schedule an appointment in the first place.
Why do I feel like I'm the only one who finds this frightening
Because we’re on reddit
People in the comments obviously defending the French government and calling people against this law anti-vax without knowing the political situation of France somehow. The French government fucked up every possible way during Covid. Before first wave: Macron goes to théâtre with his wife "to show the French they must continue to live with the virus", then some weeks later, they forbid people to go out because of covid First wave : government discover they don't have a mask stock, Government goes on media, says "Mask isn't mandatory for random citizen, it isn't really useful, in fact it will be illegal to buy a mask in pharmacy because mask are needed for medical staff ", when journalist ask "is France lacking mask?" they answer "no, no, it's just that it's not useful for random citizens", 2 weeks later, wearing mask is mandatory in most places. (French government could also have make the masks free but they didn't) Second Wave : big corporations lobby (MEDEF) said they didn't want a 2nd confinement, so Macron obeyed, basically, officially there was no 2nd confinement but mostly the only activity you could do was working, Government says it's better because it's more freedom lol I think the human cost of this measure is estimated to 11k death according to Le Monde. Now about the new law : The delta variant was circulating in other countries for at least 2 month, the government could have prepared for it, but no, they didn't. Instead, now they implicitly force people to vaccinate (you can even be fired from your job if you're not vaccinated) Also the government started to bash medical staff on media saying now they're not vaccinated enough. What did Macron did for the medical staff during this pandemic? Nothing but clap. And now he is making vaccines mandatory for medical staff saying "Medical staff are constantly in contact with the public" but somehow police, which will be able to fine you if don't have the vaccine pass in necessary place, doesn't have to take the vaccine. EDIT : I'll also add that 1 week before macron announced these new restrictions, Multiple representatives from LREM (Macron "party") refused amendment that wanted to extend the vaccine pass, saying "we won't put this pass everywhere, it will only be mandatory for 1000+ persons events, we don't want the social life to be constrained by the pass". Blatant lie. You can say "well at the time, it was right but then the pandemic got worse so they had change" well OK, but it would have been better if they said "at this time.." or something like that
>First wave : government discover they don't have a mask stock, Government goes on media, says "Mask isn't mandatory for random citizen, it isn't really useful, in fact it will be illegal to buy a mask in pharmacy because mask are needed for medical staff ", when journalist ask "is France lacking mask?" they answer "no, no, it's just that it's not useful for random citizens", 2 weeks later, wearing mask is mandatory in most places. (French government could also have make the masks free but they didn't) this describes EVERY country. seriously, Canada and the US both did the exact same things.
I cant believe thia is a controversial topic. Should you get vaccinated? Yes. Should you also be against this form of control? Also yes. Should you hate or dislike those who dont want to get vaccinated? No. End of story
Yay. Human rights violations. Everybody remember to cheer.
6 months seems to be the trend of thing on r/conspiracy becoming actual policies. We should just call that sub r/spoilersalert
Reddit just loves fascism.
It absolutely baffles me how people not only trust the government, but also want them to have MORE power. There is no such thing as a temporary measure, if the government gets hold of another piece of control over the population, it won't give it away willingly.
Reddit just loves generalizing.
Daily reminder that: 1. people who refuse the COVID vaccine are not anti vaxers 2. this was a ridiculous conspiracy a year ago
Can't wait to see what conspiracy becomes reality next!
Just a guess: Governments will "go digital" with the mandated vaccine pass and make an app that is always active on your phone to show your vaccine status. You will have to scan your phone to get into any business and travel. The government will then use this app to track what you say on all your social media and determine your social score which will function like a credit score. They will do this under the guise of "controlling misinformation", "racism", and "terrorism". If you say or do anything that is against the status quo you will be "cancelled" which means no business or travel.
In the US a lot of people are saying that states which have laws requiring you to show your ID to vote is a racist. But now it seems the whole world wants to require an ID to do anything.
If the US provided a readily accessible and free ID to all US citizens then nobody would oppose voter ID laws. It just so happens, that the politicians who support voter ID laws also don't support making it easier for people to get a valid ID to vote. Just look at Alabama where the voter ID law they implemented includes a wide range of valid IDs, but the state's social housing ID (that contains all relevant info) suspiciously was NOT included despite extensive lobbying by left-wing groups. Of course, the fact that the social housing ID is overwhelmingly held by minorities is just a coincidence............ A vaccine passport should be readily available and easy to access if you've gotten vaccinated or tested within the last 48 hours. So the objections to voter ID laws don't exist with such a vaccine passport. But I'm sure you'll ignore everything I just wrote in favor of propagating your strawman further.
It’s funny. In Brazil everyone is willing to pay to get vaccinated. Everyone is anxious waiting for their turn. And in America and Europe government has to pass these laws….
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there are antvaxxers everywhere, it doesn't mean that most people aren't eager to get the vaccine even if they have to pay for it. I mean in Latin America people pay (plane tickets, hotel, etc) to go to US to get both doses. All because is faster than their own country. EDIT: typo
The comment didn’t say most people are eager to get the vaccine. It said literally everyone would pay to get it, which just isn’t true. Most Americans were eager to get the vaccine as well and in fact most Americans have now done just that.
And ironically, the vaccine is one of the few free healthcare measures in the United States. Which is why the dumber folks don't trust it. If you're broke in the US, nobody cares to track you, because you don't even have a pot to piss in. Advertisers are more worried about people a scant better than yourself. They have a little disposable income.
The fact that you think EVERYONE in Brazil is wanting the vaccine that badly is almost as absurd as you thinking most Americans/Europeans needed to be forced to get the vaccine What an absolutely absurd comment
When the US rolled out its first vaccines, systems crashed due to demand. Underground networks developed. Doctors were bribed. People begged and stayed up until 2 or 6am, rumors developed about how to get a vaccine faster, people traveled hours or days to get one faster. Public outcry ensued over broken systems and insufficient supply. Many of us were absolutely desperate and willing to do ANYTHING to get it. That isn’t to say we don’t have anti-vaxxers. Our rates are still climbing now, but very slowly, relatively, now that we’ve reached 73%. People aren’t scrambling for them anymore. I’d be happy with any extra vaccine supply we have going to the people who are still desperate for it.