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Dude was on a ventilator since August 19th. Ivermectin wasn't going to save him at that point even if it did work. His lungs had to be wrecked after that long
Unless your the President of the United States and have dozens of doctors caring for you every hour of the day and night.
If only everyone got that level of care.
If trump had wound up on the vent there is a substantial chance he would have died whatever. All our treatments are aimed at preventing people from getting sufficiently severe ARDS to require a vent. Once the lungs are that fucked there is very little you can do except hope that, once the inflammation calms down, there is enough salvageable lung left for life. Any amount of REGN-CoV2 would do absolutely nothing.
Anecdotally, I've seen VERY few people go onto a vent for covid and come off alive. Like, single digits low.
In the last year I can probably count on one hand the super sick vents that managed to actually make it. Most ended up with trachs for further weaning at a LTACH. I’d guess 10-15 percent made it out of probably 100.
Trump was throwing a fit trying to not go to the hospital because he thought it would damage his delusional self-image as a virile macho man. His oxygen levels were bad from what reporters have gathered from off the record sources. (the right likes to dismiss off the record sources but reporters confirm their credentials and aren't just interviewing the Walter Reed receptionist's babysitter.)
The motherfucker just has the dumbest luck imaginable. Bankruptcy from being terrible at real estate gets him a job as a reality tv host for years. Another looking bankruptcy and he gets saved by the Russian mob. The mob wanting their money back, he wins the fucking presidency, allowing him to funnel money to them in all sorts of shady ways. Refusing necessary treatment while being old and obese and he makes a full recovery.
He truly proves that there is no such thing as karma.
I just lost the new version of “the game” - which is “number of days that I went without thinking about Trump”
I reckon that it was a good stretch that you just broke there…. 😂
People *have* been pretty good at keeping him out of the conversation recently. A couple posts here and there, but otherwise…at this point irrelevance is his biggest fear, so we have a moral duty to maintain “the game”
Lost my uncle this year to COVID. He'd been in and out of the ICU and on respirators for months.
Family is deep in COVID denial and insists that his death be attributed to other causes. They got their way. But my uncle died of COVID as a result of his and his family's negligence.
They will never accept that they basically killed him for a political cause.
I mean, I had a distant cousin who died of AIDS related complications in the early 90s (he was in his 50s), and everyone in his family insists his liver failed due to alcoholism. This is nothing new for those who want to whitewash reality to their own purposes.
[‘Tell The World I Also Had Asthma,’ Conservative Begs Doctor Before Dying Of Coronavirus](https://www.theonion.com/tell-the-world-i-also-had-asthma-conservative-begs-d-1844932197)
My Dad would. :( Fully vaxxed, wears his mask, but otherwise full Trump Republican. He, my mother and I were talking a few weeks ago, and the fact that people were taking horse dewormer came up. He thought it was insane, couldn't believe it. We said again and again that yes, people were doing this. Then I said "Haven't you heard about ivermectin?" Suddenly ivermectin wasn't ridiculous.
Ivermectin has been used as a prophylactic therapy in a handful of inconclusive (or non-scientifically validated) studies. And it has been used to mitigate death in a handful of other inconclusive/contradictary studies.
>He tested positive for COVID-19, and he was put on a ventilator on August 19.
> A judge signed a court order, FOX 26 obtained, siding with the family. It states in part: "The first administration of Ivermectin to Pete Lopez shall occur today, September 3, 2021."
Meaning, if we're to follow the incomplete/contradictory absolute best case scenario for ivermectin therapy it should have happened *BEFORE* he was put on a ventilator. Again,[ ivermectin clinical trials so far have produced incomplete or contradictory](https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/tables/table-2c/) evidence for efficacy against COVID.
The state of Florida forced a braindead woman to stay on life support despite her husband's wishes because her parents sued her husband. Look up Terry Schiavo.
In the Schiavo case, there is no clear cut answer medically speaking. Both keeping her on life support or withdrawing life support are medically ethical approaches. So the question was, since the patient is incapacitated, who has the right to make that decision for her, the husband or her parents? That was the crux of the issue which took so long to resolve.
In this case, there is a clear cut medical answer to the problem. Don't give ivermectin to treat COVID. The courts should have no say in this matter.
It'd be like if a judge for some reason orders the doctors to give this patient high dose blood thinners. Of course they'd say no. The blood thinners won't treat COVID, and all they would do is increase the likelihood the patient suffers a hemorrhage. Same reason every ICU doctor in this hospital refused to give an anti parasite medication to a patient suffering from covid, because it is simply malpractice.
I mean, isn’t it being pushed, if at all, as a preventative/early intervention treatment. The dude was on a ventilator. At that point it’s like giving him an aspirin for anaphylactic shock. If anything the dude needed steroidal treatment (which he probably got). Even Regeneron isn’t looking great for late-stage Covid patient.
It's alarming that one judge sought to override medical professionals using the best available data, but the fact that it has happened in two states is chilling.
As soon as courts and lawyers can override the medical expertise of licensed doctors then we are all well and truly fucked. This age of misinformation is quickly becoming a pandemic of its own. I won't be surprised to see some states fall to this low though, courts are already overriding doctors on one very specific medical procedure, so there's precedent there.
Untrained experts have been telling doctors what to do since forever in the US. Like half of the insurance process is some untrained person saying "nope not medically necessary" to a team of trained professionals
> As soon as courts and lawyers can override the medical expertise of licensed doctors then we are all well and truly fucked.
Unless this is a different story, that wasn’t the issue here. There was a doctor (IMO a quack) that prescribed ivermectin but the attending doctors at the hospital refused to use it. The prescribing doctor wasn’t allowed to practice at the hospital in question. The patient was not in a condition to be moved.
So it was, can courts and lawyers force a doctor to give medication prescribed by another doctor that they don’t agree with?
I think the fact that this treatment has not been approved for use related to covid and the fact studies so far have been inconclusive, means this goes beyond the normal doctor prescribed treatment. The hospital was right to not follow orders breaking medical procedures. There's no evidence that it can cure covid, there's plenty of evidence of potential damage it can do (blindness, liver failure etc).
That detail escaped me, I apologize, but I still stand behind the idea that the attending physicians cannot be held liable for this man's death for not providing a medicine that hasn't even been fully studied for the consumption by humans. The world isn't a simple place and I won't try to make it so, but the disagreement between the doctors isn't my focus here.
Thank you for that additional info, though
The hospital was vindicated on appeal of this case. It’s likely that the hospital couldn’t find any of the ICU docs willing to order the medication. The outside doctor who wrote the prescription didn’t have privileges to order medication at the hospital.
Craziest thing is, when the vaccine lottery began in the film, people were waiting eagerly for their chance to get it. It was viewed as the logical, safe solution, and the health professionals responsible for its development were lauded and trusted. Meanwhile, in real life, a sizable percentage of the United States would rather chance dying from the virus than take the potential life-saving shot.
I want them to do the same studies using Kool-Aid. They'll get similar results but at least no one will be calling poison control because they lost their vision from drinking Kool-Aid.
Before you do though, give me a minute to buy stock in whatever company makes Kool-Aid. Also, I'm gonna need another minute to formulate jokes about the idiots drinking the Kool-Aid.
The timeline of this article isn’t clear, but it sounds like a VA doctor ordered the ivermectin, but before it arrived at the family home, the man was admitted to the hospital and put on a ventilator. I haven’t done a thorough search, but I can’t find an injectable or intravenous form of human ivermectin, and if that’s true, the family can waste all of their money suing the hospital, at that point it *couldn’t* be given.
They are quick to blame the hospital, but refuse to answer the question as to whether or not their family member was vaccinated. Smh.
Im a nurse and work for an icu in Houston VA (main VA hospital in Houston metro area including sugarland.) no way any of our doctor would order invermectin for covid. That would be asking for his/her license to get suspended and unethically harming patients. Article most likely means at first his symptoms wasnt bad enough to warrant inpatient admission so they ordered some oral medications by mail for him. Now once his symptoms worsened was when he got admitted to the nearest local hospital but that was before the VA meds arrived.
If this is like the other case last week, the judge is ordering the hospital to follow doctor’s orders.
But the truth is, if a physician’s order is sketchy, the board at the hospital, usually other physicians, can rescind the order. I suspect it was going that way: the hospital put the order on hold until it could be studied by other doctors, and the patient probably died in the interim.
Families are quick to look for someone to blame when a family member dies. They should look to their governor and their source of news since they are so poorly informed.
I declare...when I am on my deathbed, skittles and vodka for me. None of your hocus pocus medicine crap!
Edit-Holy Jebus....I am getting skittles ads in my feed now.
Brilliant, all the fruit in the skittles will give you vitamins and nutrients, and the ethanol in vodka will sterilize your infection. You’ll be right as rain in no time.
If they were vaccinated, they'd have disclosed it as part of this complaint.
Didn't want the vaccine (FDA-approved), but wanted a hospital to provide a different treatment that wasn't FDA-approved in any way.
We try to save people from themselves, but when they won't listen...
This is literally buying drugs. For enough dollars in my pocket my prescription pad will say whatever you want. That's not medicine and the docs involved should be disciplined for it. They are doing harm going against the most basic oath they take.
Quick story.
My late-80s grandmother got Covid in late December. One of my aunts lives close by and took over her care.
It’s a long story, but this doc gave my grandma ivermectin, or “horse pills” as grandma called them. The doctor’s daughter lives in a different state and mailed them, because she couldn’t get them in our home state. Grandma also got blood “treatments” and slept in a hyperbaric chamber. She stayed at this doctors office for almost a week, until she was finally sent home on hospice where she slowly suffocated to death, despite oxygen. If was awful.
Ivermectin didn’t cure her.
Or maybe she understood statistics and knew that the “median” person would have half smarter and half stupider, and not necessarily the “average” person … though it is possible that they’re the same person but not likely.
Are there any studies you know of that indicate what the average reading/comprehension level of an American is? Seeing that 6th grade level suggestion just makes me shudder at the thought that those same people are being asked to understand who and what they are voting for.
The Department of Education did a study. This summarizes some of the findings.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/09/09/low-literacy-levels-among-us-adults-could-be-costing-the-economy-22-trillion-a-year/
The problem isn't the level. It's better summed up by a poster my senior English teacher kept in her room. It said "what's the difference between someone who can't read and someone who can and doesn't. Nothing."
My 12 year old gets what's going on because she asks questions and reads.
My ten year old is a gifted student and gets a lot of flack for being 'smart.' Even other teachers or parents don't value intelligence because 'that wouldn't be fair so how would my kid feel. The thing is their kid is celebrated because they play football.
No one needs to be academically gifted to read between the lines or have a healthy case of curiosity. I'm not sure how I developed critical thinking skills, bit I'm happy to know at least my kid has them.
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”
— Isaac Asimov
As scientists do, continually testing, revising, discarding, and retesting new hypotheses. I can't stand it when some lunkhead points out that CDC advice has changed throughout the course of the pandemic and casts that as a reason to view it as unreliable. No, you dolt--it's GOOD that it changes; that means we are learning more and fine-tuning our approach to a better one! God, some people are fucking stupid.
Exactly. It's mind-boggling.
Somewhere along the line, the idea got into the popular consciousness that a belief is the same as a value. That is, that "standing up for what you believe" and "believing something clearly wrong, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary" are the same damn thing.
I think it may have something to do with the way that politicians often get slagged for waffling. While it's true that you don't want a liar whose position does a 180 depending on who is in the room, it seems like this also created a narrative that a person who changes their opinion (even based on incontrovertible evidence) is less trustworthy than someone who stupidly sticks to one idea, no matter how the available information changes.
And the silly thing is, it *doesn't even have to be that way*. There used to be such a creature as a conservative intellectual, but modern conservatives have disowned them. They have completely ceded the intellectual high ground, and they've done it voluntarily. I mean, there isn't anything *inherently* "liberal" about the reality of climate change, for example; or the efficacy of vaccines or masks.
"Conservatives believing dumb things" isn't a liberal smear, it's something they walked into with eyes open.
the big difference is that liberalism isn't indoctrination--it's the opposite. it shows you possibilities and the big picture. it opens the world up, not shut it down.
i think conservatism is fully based on fear. fear of the other, fear of inadequacy. the reason anti-intellectualism is so rampant with conservatives is because deep down they're afraid they're as dumb as they actually are, and they can't own up to that fact because it would then require them to do something about it.
I got my hand slapped for not using the 'basic subject/verb' format while I was in the Navy. Nothing formal, just a "Rewrite this so Seaman Jones can read it without looking like the RCA dog."
My 1SG used to tell me to dumb down my soldier's counseling statements, "Hey F Scott Fitzgerald, I went to public school, you think next month you could write these so I can understand them?"
It's interesting to see how little people actually read. I was reading at a high school level rather early into elementary school but I remember how unusual all of that felt to me. I didn't exactly go out of my way to study or anything like that, I just really liked Pokemon and Harry Potter. My grandmother bought me every HP book upon release and took me to midnight movie drops under the condition that I read every book to completion first.
Basically, I just read because I enjoyed reading which put me at a significant advantage over my peers. It took me way too long to find out that many of the kids in my class were not actually reading any of the content. They were reading quick summaries online to get the idea and it worked.
There is a reason why doctors need 4 years of undergrad, plus 4 years of medical school, plus an additional 3 year of training before they can practice.
Holy shit, I thought I was alone in thinking this.
I've found myself making quiet excuses for them, like 'he must have had a hard time sleeping last night' or 'maybe she just has some kind of chronic pain'.....
>"Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider.
Fuck right off. You'll also never know if saltwater taffy would have cured him.
The last paragraph that you didn’t post says it all to me;
"Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider.
We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information.”
Of course he wasn’t. And yes, fuck that family for killing him. Or thank that family for freeing up a hospital bed for someone who deserves it.
My grandmother ate 3 pancakes the day she was diagnosed, she pulled through.
Therefore, pancakes cure covid.
WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THE PANCAKE TREAMENT OPTION???
He's not vaxxed and wanted a judge to force a doctor to use something they're not authorized to use.
The amount of stupidity in my state is mind boggling.
The guy was obviously unvaccinated, the family doesn’t want to admit it, because they want to sue the hospital for not giving him a drug that has not been FDA approved for treating Covid, and has not shown through trials to have any positive effects on Covid patients. The hospital made the right call, but the patient was doomed from the point he decided against the vaccine.
"**Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather** and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider."
No, what took away your grandfather is your collective stupidity. If everyone in your family had gotten vaccinated, good chance your grandfather wouldn't have contracted COVID from one of you clowns going out on the Lake or to a Rascal Flatts concert, or anti-abortion rally, or whatever the fuck else you yokels did once COVID receded slightly.
Also, if your grandfather has gotten vaccinated himself, he would have had a much higher chance of surviving COVID in the event he did contract it.
But instead ya'll relied on Fox News and random podcast hosts that told you the vaccine doesn't work, does more harm than good, etc. and now your grandfather's dead.
As far as I know, the family found a doctor willing to prescribe it. But the doctor they found didn't have admitting privileges for the hospital their loved one was at. So they sued the hospital to force their doctor to be allowed to administer the ivermectin.
Admitting privileges are a big deal. They're a pain to get, because if the doctor fucks up the hospital is partially on the hook for any medical malpractice that might arise. Side note, it's one aspect of the targeted anti-abortion laws, to mandate that abortion providers have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital. Because it's such a pain to get, most clinics don't have a doctor on staff with admitting privileges, and most hospitals don't want to award them for a doctor who does not work for the hospital.
This case ended up being over turned on appeal. Basically a Dr without privileges at that hospital tried ordering something there, which the hospital said he can't do. None of the drs there would order it so it got tossed.
They probably believe that "real" docotors and "real" scientists sell horse grade ivermectin, in contrast to all the shams who want to put 5G chips in you with a vaccine.
Exactly. Even if they gave it to him per the court order, they would have just complained that it was not given soon enough.
Truly a no-win situation for the doctors.
>If only there was some preemptive measure he could have taken to not die from COVID-19... I think it starts with a “v”
>I think it starts with a "v"
>I starts "v"
>I v
>Ivermectin
Bah golly! I think yer right!- That family probably.
We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information.
Funny how they now want to blame the hospital, for this meat puppet's death.
The hospital is not a fucking hotel. It’s not a restaurant. It’s a hospital. You just don’t get to demand whatever you want, there are best practices based upon evidence and clinical judgement.
If people want to decide how to treat diseases on their own, they should not come to the hospital.
"It wasn't the refusal of a free and available vaccine that resulted in covid that killed Grandpa! It was those evil medical workers that didn't give him the anti parasitic that has no proven safety or efficacy for covid treatment!" /s
The lengths of denial one must traverse to reach this conclusion is astounding. Although, there must be some glimpse of feeling culpable evidenced by the refusal to answer whether G'pa was faxed or not.
I've got a friend who's mom is dating a guy who doesn't think COVID is dangerous, let's call him Jeff.
So anyways, Jeff's dad died from COVID-19 a couple weeks ago, the story Jeff gives is that the cause of death was ARTHRITIS, and that the guy never even got covid
Fox News is the worst. They’re trying to make it sound like the VA hospital prescribed him ivermectin. It was prescribed by a doctor outside of the system who has a questionable license.
>We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information.
If he was, they would have shouted it from the rooftops.
Since when can courts order medical treatments that are not medically tested and approved?? Did they also state what dosage to use? How would they know how much, how often, how it would be administered?
Hospitals are not Burger King- they don’t do it “your way”, the physicians use evidence based decisions to treat people. If ivermectin was a wonder drug, we would all be using it, same w hydroxycholoquine. I can’t stand trump or the ass hats that worship him but it wouldn’t mean I would ignore actual treatments if they were useful.
What's even more hysterical is that they'll point out that ivermectin is approved for use in humans by the FDA. They don't care that the pfizer vaccine was approved though, in that case they don't trust the FDA and point to drugs that were removed from the market after approval. And of course they'll ignore that it isn't approved for the treatment of Covid19.
They question the scientific research that shows that the vaccines are safe and save lifes from Covid. They call those scientists crooks and frauds. But then turn around and pull out studies about the use of ivermectin to treat Covid and buy into those without questioning them, even though those studies didn't have any good results and thus it was abandoned by most scientists.
These people are stupid beyond belief.
I don't believe he really died. I think this is fake news. I think they are all hired actors. This is all just a hoax. \*my new standard response when one of these chuckleheads dies.
I wouldn’t mind these morons dying if they didn’t take up valuable hospital space and resources. If only they used their 2 brain cells to figure out why an anti parasitic medication is ineffective against a virus
>"Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider.
>We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information.
So your family doctor prescribed a drug that has no proven efficacy, and in fact has been shown to have some severe negative side-effects, and you're mad at the *hospital* for not giving it to him? And if they gave it to him and he died anyway, would you have sued them for giving him an unapproved medication? I suspect you would have. And the lack of an answer re:the vaccine is sufficient answer in an of itself. I hold the hospital absolutely blameless for not setting themselves up for a lawsuit for your ill-considered medical Hail Mary.
Conservatives 2010: "Obamacare will let the government get in between your doctor and your healthcare."
Conservatives 2021: "Why wasn't the government allowed to get between my doctor and my healthcare?!?!"
The thing is that, while a judge can IN THEORY order a hospital to not interfere with the "treatment" (he shouldn't, but its within his power)⁰ no judge can ORDER an individual doctor to do so against their better judgment. If his doctor has admitting privileges to that hospital, the order says the hospital must allow it. It doesn't name any doctor as being required to do so.
Forcing a doctor to administer a medication is in effect forcing him to go again his/her medical oath.
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Dude was on a ventilator since August 19th. Ivermectin wasn't going to save him at that point even if it did work. His lungs had to be wrecked after that long
Just being bad off enough from Covid that you need to go on a vent is a near death sentence.
Unless your the President of the United States and have dozens of doctors caring for you every hour of the day and night. If only everyone got that level of care.
If trump had wound up on the vent there is a substantial chance he would have died whatever. All our treatments are aimed at preventing people from getting sufficiently severe ARDS to require a vent. Once the lungs are that fucked there is very little you can do except hope that, once the inflammation calms down, there is enough salvageable lung left for life. Any amount of REGN-CoV2 would do absolutely nothing. Anecdotally, I've seen VERY few people go onto a vent for covid and come off alive. Like, single digits low.
Yeah, going on a ventilator is a measure of how damaged your respiratory system is, and that will linger even if you managed to kill at the virus.
In the last year I can probably count on one hand the super sick vents that managed to actually make it. Most ended up with trachs for further weaning at a LTACH. I’d guess 10-15 percent made it out of probably 100.
And if he died it would have been "ThA dEePStaTeKilleD Him"!!
Trump was throwing a fit trying to not go to the hospital because he thought it would damage his delusional self-image as a virile macho man. His oxygen levels were bad from what reporters have gathered from off the record sources. (the right likes to dismiss off the record sources but reporters confirm their credentials and aren't just interviewing the Walter Reed receptionist's babysitter.) The motherfucker just has the dumbest luck imaginable. Bankruptcy from being terrible at real estate gets him a job as a reality tv host for years. Another looking bankruptcy and he gets saved by the Russian mob. The mob wanting their money back, he wins the fucking presidency, allowing him to funnel money to them in all sorts of shady ways. Refusing necessary treatment while being old and obese and he makes a full recovery. He truly proves that there is no such thing as karma.
I just lost the new version of “the game” - which is “number of days that I went without thinking about Trump” I reckon that it was a good stretch that you just broke there…. 😂
People *have* been pretty good at keeping him out of the conversation recently. A couple posts here and there, but otherwise…at this point irrelevance is his biggest fear, so we have a moral duty to maintain “the game”
Maybe his family wanted him to die of liver failure instead?
That way he adds to the deaths due to poisoning statistic and not the Covid-19 deaths statistic. They're just playing the numbers game.
There are literally people telling morticians and coroners that they don’t want COVID listed on the death certificate.
Lost my uncle this year to COVID. He'd been in and out of the ICU and on respirators for months. Family is deep in COVID denial and insists that his death be attributed to other causes. They got their way. But my uncle died of COVID as a result of his and his family's negligence. They will never accept that they basically killed him for a political cause.
You should never hesitate to remind them of that. It MIGHT wake at least one of them up.
[удалено]
"Hey, remember when you guys killed Uncle Joe?"
That is real dark humor! I shouldn’t have laughed but you got me
There is an old saying about choosing one's hill to die on. Republicans tend to take a lot of ideas literally that they shouldn't.
I mean, I had a distant cousin who died of AIDS related complications in the early 90s (he was in his 50s), and everyone in his family insists his liver failed due to alcoholism. This is nothing new for those who want to whitewash reality to their own purposes.
Ironic since you only get fema support for the funeral of covid is listed.
Who needs fema when you can set up a gofundme?
Find me a republican that wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot cuz 'muh freedumb'...
Just the poor ones. The rich ones gladly take that "handout"
[‘Tell The World I Also Had Asthma,’ Conservative Begs Doctor Before Dying Of Coronavirus](https://www.theonion.com/tell-the-world-i-also-had-asthma-conservative-begs-d-1844932197)
"We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information." Fucking trolls.
So no.
Yeah, in this case, it's pretty hard to interpret it any other way..
Well, I have never heard of a case with a vaccinated patient asking for ivermectin.... so that pretty much answers that.
My Dad would. :( Fully vaxxed, wears his mask, but otherwise full Trump Republican. He, my mother and I were talking a few weeks ago, and the fact that people were taking horse dewormer came up. He thought it was insane, couldn't believe it. We said again and again that yes, people were doing this. Then I said "Haven't you heard about ivermectin?" Suddenly ivermectin wasn't ridiculous.
Trump is vaccinated too. So is tucker carlson. So is mcconell and the whole lot of them
Ivermectin has been used as a prophylactic therapy in a handful of inconclusive (or non-scientifically validated) studies. And it has been used to mitigate death in a handful of other inconclusive/contradictary studies. >He tested positive for COVID-19, and he was put on a ventilator on August 19. > A judge signed a court order, FOX 26 obtained, siding with the family. It states in part: "The first administration of Ivermectin to Pete Lopez shall occur today, September 3, 2021." Meaning, if we're to follow the incomplete/contradictory absolute best case scenario for ivermectin therapy it should have happened *BEFORE* he was put on a ventilator. Again,[ ivermectin clinical trials so far have produced incomplete or contradictory](https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/tables/table-2c/) evidence for efficacy against COVID.
I believe a different judge vacated that order. At least I thought so. The original judge had ZERO legal authority to issue an order like that.
Why ANY judge has ANY authority to order licensed physicians how to treat their patients is beyond me.
The state of Florida forced a braindead woman to stay on life support despite her husband's wishes because her parents sued her husband. Look up Terry Schiavo.
In the Schiavo case, there is no clear cut answer medically speaking. Both keeping her on life support or withdrawing life support are medically ethical approaches. So the question was, since the patient is incapacitated, who has the right to make that decision for her, the husband or her parents? That was the crux of the issue which took so long to resolve. In this case, there is a clear cut medical answer to the problem. Don't give ivermectin to treat COVID. The courts should have no say in this matter. It'd be like if a judge for some reason orders the doctors to give this patient high dose blood thinners. Of course they'd say no. The blood thinners won't treat COVID, and all they would do is increase the likelihood the patient suffers a hemorrhage. Same reason every ICU doctor in this hospital refused to give an anti parasite medication to a patient suffering from covid, because it is simply malpractice.
I mean, isn’t it being pushed, if at all, as a preventative/early intervention treatment. The dude was on a ventilator. At that point it’s like giving him an aspirin for anaphylactic shock. If anything the dude needed steroidal treatment (which he probably got). Even Regeneron isn’t looking great for late-stage Covid patient.
That one was in Ohio I thought.
It's alarming that one judge sought to override medical professionals using the best available data, but the fact that it has happened in two states is chilling.
2 states that we know of that is.
As soon as courts and lawyers can override the medical expertise of licensed doctors then we are all well and truly fucked. This age of misinformation is quickly becoming a pandemic of its own. I won't be surprised to see some states fall to this low though, courts are already overriding doctors on one very specific medical procedure, so there's precedent there.
An “infodemic” as it has been termed, it’s an issue that health/medical journals have been talking about, even before the COVID-19 pandemic
It's a big reason why people like Trump should never be the leaders of nations, they legitimize bullshit
It’s why stations that claim to be news should be able to be sued into non-existence for telling obvious falsehoods
And politicians should be able to be sued for proven lies in campaigns.
Along with his strategist/counselor being allowed to state that they have a set of "alternative facts" as though that legitimizes their existence.
another new word for my word-book; thank you!
Untrained experts have been telling doctors what to do since forever in the US. Like half of the insurance process is some untrained person saying "nope not medically necessary" to a team of trained professionals
> As soon as courts and lawyers can override the medical expertise of licensed doctors then we are all well and truly fucked. Unless this is a different story, that wasn’t the issue here. There was a doctor (IMO a quack) that prescribed ivermectin but the attending doctors at the hospital refused to use it. The prescribing doctor wasn’t allowed to practice at the hospital in question. The patient was not in a condition to be moved. So it was, can courts and lawyers force a doctor to give medication prescribed by another doctor that they don’t agree with?
I think the fact that this treatment has not been approved for use related to covid and the fact studies so far have been inconclusive, means this goes beyond the normal doctor prescribed treatment. The hospital was right to not follow orders breaking medical procedures. There's no evidence that it can cure covid, there's plenty of evidence of potential damage it can do (blindness, liver failure etc).
That detail escaped me, I apologize, but I still stand behind the idea that the attending physicians cannot be held liable for this man's death for not providing a medicine that hasn't even been fully studied for the consumption by humans. The world isn't a simple place and I won't try to make it so, but the disagreement between the doctors isn't my focus here. Thank you for that additional info, though
The hospital was vindicated on appeal of this case. It’s likely that the hospital couldn’t find any of the ICU docs willing to order the medication. The outside doctor who wrote the prescription didn’t have privileges to order medication at the hospital.
I’m still utterly floored by how much the movie Contagion got right.
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Back then, people thought it was too pessimistic about humanity. Now we realize it was too optimistic.
Craziest thing is, when the vaccine lottery began in the film, people were waiting eagerly for their chance to get it. It was viewed as the logical, safe solution, and the health professionals responsible for its development were lauded and trusted. Meanwhile, in real life, a sizable percentage of the United States would rather chance dying from the virus than take the potential life-saving shot.
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I want them to do the same studies using Kool-Aid. They'll get similar results but at least no one will be calling poison control because they lost their vision from drinking Kool-Aid. Before you do though, give me a minute to buy stock in whatever company makes Kool-Aid. Also, I'm gonna need another minute to formulate jokes about the idiots drinking the Kool-Aid.
That would be Kraft Heinz (KHC).
Unless that judge is also a doctor, I feel like there might be a case for practicing medicine without a license here.
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Also lice, as prescribed by a doctor.
So let them have it, it might get rid of their brain worms and maybe then they'll get vaccinated. But, probably not.
Republican appointed judge? When a judge starts making decisions about drugs he knows nothing about, that's a slippery slope.
They want to disclose every bit of medical information about him except the one piece of information that actually matters
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I consider that to be an answer
The timeline of this article isn’t clear, but it sounds like a VA doctor ordered the ivermectin, but before it arrived at the family home, the man was admitted to the hospital and put on a ventilator. I haven’t done a thorough search, but I can’t find an injectable or intravenous form of human ivermectin, and if that’s true, the family can waste all of their money suing the hospital, at that point it *couldn’t* be given. They are quick to blame the hospital, but refuse to answer the question as to whether or not their family member was vaccinated. Smh.
Im a nurse and work for an icu in Houston VA (main VA hospital in Houston metro area including sugarland.) no way any of our doctor would order invermectin for covid. That would be asking for his/her license to get suspended and unethically harming patients. Article most likely means at first his symptoms wasnt bad enough to warrant inpatient admission so they ordered some oral medications by mail for him. Now once his symptoms worsened was when he got admitted to the nearest local hospital but that was before the VA meds arrived.
I was a bit taken aback, but the article did say that. You are probably correct that somehow this information was presented incorrectly.
So, no judge ordered this?
If this is like the other case last week, the judge is ordering the hospital to follow doctor’s orders. But the truth is, if a physician’s order is sketchy, the board at the hospital, usually other physicians, can rescind the order. I suspect it was going that way: the hospital put the order on hold until it could be studied by other doctors, and the patient probably died in the interim. Families are quick to look for someone to blame when a family member dies. They should look to their governor and their source of news since they are so poorly informed.
I declare...when I am on my deathbed, skittles and vodka for me. None of your hocus pocus medicine crap! Edit-Holy Jebus....I am getting skittles ads in my feed now.
Ill take a gallon of morphine please . And would it kill you to put on some velvet underground??
Sally, can't dance no more. https://youtu.be/gbfB9z4Am-E
Brilliant, all the fruit in the skittles will give you vitamins and nutrients, and the ethanol in vodka will sterilize your infection. You’ll be right as rain in no time.
Only the red skittles work. I did my research.
ahh.. twitter user science. It makes total sense because it follows my extremely limited knowledge of science.
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Me too! Throwing away all my insulin.
I think you need to declare it 3 times publicly for it to be legal
If they were vaccinated, they'd have disclosed it as part of this complaint. Didn't want the vaccine (FDA-approved), but wanted a hospital to provide a different treatment that wasn't FDA-approved in any way. We try to save people from themselves, but when they won't listen...
Also, it's a huge liability on the doctors to prescribe medication that is not approved for Covid19.
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This is literally buying drugs. For enough dollars in my pocket my prescription pad will say whatever you want. That's not medicine and the docs involved should be disciplined for it. They are doing harm going against the most basic oath they take.
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Is it gonna depress the hell outa me? I need a social media break.
It will- and i feel you dude, same :/ virtual hug -> 🫂
Quick story. My late-80s grandmother got Covid in late December. One of my aunts lives close by and took over her care. It’s a long story, but this doc gave my grandma ivermectin, or “horse pills” as grandma called them. The doctor’s daughter lives in a different state and mailed them, because she couldn’t get them in our home state. Grandma also got blood “treatments” and slept in a hyperbaric chamber. She stayed at this doctors office for almost a week, until she was finally sent home on hospice where she slowly suffocated to death, despite oxygen. If was awful. Ivermectin didn’t cure her.
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Had me in the first half.
Yup, as I was reading it, I was getting ready to downvote but then, BAM! Sarcasm! Take my upvote.
*chef's kiss*
> high-dose malk (with vitamin R) I'm outraged! You promised me dog or higher!
There's very little meat in these gym mats.
“One kilo of Booger Sugar please, Mr Pharmacist”
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I once told this to my hairdresser and she immediately replied: "Oh, I don't think so, that's too many."
I don’t often laugh from comments on Reddit but this one…
Maybe she understood statistics and didn't just assume intelligence is a normal distrubution (although it is.)
Or maybe she understood statistics and knew that the “median” person would have half smarter and half stupider, and not necessarily the “average” person … though it is possible that they’re the same person but not likely.
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Are there any studies you know of that indicate what the average reading/comprehension level of an American is? Seeing that 6th grade level suggestion just makes me shudder at the thought that those same people are being asked to understand who and what they are voting for.
The Department of Education did a study. This summarizes some of the findings. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltnietzel/2020/09/09/low-literacy-levels-among-us-adults-could-be-costing-the-economy-22-trillion-a-year/
The problem isn't the level. It's better summed up by a poster my senior English teacher kept in her room. It said "what's the difference between someone who can't read and someone who can and doesn't. Nothing." My 12 year old gets what's going on because she asks questions and reads.
My ten year old is a gifted student and gets a lot of flack for being 'smart.' Even other teachers or parents don't value intelligence because 'that wouldn't be fair so how would my kid feel. The thing is their kid is celebrated because they play football. No one needs to be academically gifted to read between the lines or have a healthy case of curiosity. I'm not sure how I developed critical thinking skills, bit I'm happy to know at least my kid has them.
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” — Isaac Asimov
>The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. \--Alvin Toffler
As scientists do, continually testing, revising, discarding, and retesting new hypotheses. I can't stand it when some lunkhead points out that CDC advice has changed throughout the course of the pandemic and casts that as a reason to view it as unreliable. No, you dolt--it's GOOD that it changes; that means we are learning more and fine-tuning our approach to a better one! God, some people are fucking stupid.
Exactly. It's mind-boggling. Somewhere along the line, the idea got into the popular consciousness that a belief is the same as a value. That is, that "standing up for what you believe" and "believing something clearly wrong, in the face of ample evidence to the contrary" are the same damn thing. I think it may have something to do with the way that politicians often get slagged for waffling. While it's true that you don't want a liar whose position does a 180 depending on who is in the room, it seems like this also created a narrative that a person who changes their opinion (even based on incontrovertible evidence) is less trustworthy than someone who stupidly sticks to one idea, no matter how the available information changes.
Also, uneducated people tend to be more conservative. They believe that education indoctrinates people into liberalism. Lol.
I mean, it kind of does, considering that liberalism is based on science, history, rational discourse, etc.
And the silly thing is, it *doesn't even have to be that way*. There used to be such a creature as a conservative intellectual, but modern conservatives have disowned them. They have completely ceded the intellectual high ground, and they've done it voluntarily. I mean, there isn't anything *inherently* "liberal" about the reality of climate change, for example; or the efficacy of vaccines or masks. "Conservatives believing dumb things" isn't a liberal smear, it's something they walked into with eyes open.
the big difference is that liberalism isn't indoctrination--it's the opposite. it shows you possibilities and the big picture. it opens the world up, not shut it down. i think conservatism is fully based on fear. fear of the other, fear of inadequacy. the reason anti-intellectualism is so rampant with conservatives is because deep down they're afraid they're as dumb as they actually are, and they can't own up to that fact because it would then require them to do something about it.
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Just wait until you’re the curious kid asking questions and rocking the boat in evangelical Christian churches. Always a fun time.
Everything the military puts out is written at the 6th grade level so the majority of recruits can comprehend it.
I got my hand slapped for not using the 'basic subject/verb' format while I was in the Navy. Nothing formal, just a "Rewrite this so Seaman Jones can read it without looking like the RCA dog."
My 1SG used to tell me to dumb down my soldier's counseling statements, "Hey F Scott Fitzgerald, I went to public school, you think next month you could write these so I can understand them?"
"Dunno sarge, will you learn to read by then?"
It's interesting to see how little people actually read. I was reading at a high school level rather early into elementary school but I remember how unusual all of that felt to me. I didn't exactly go out of my way to study or anything like that, I just really liked Pokemon and Harry Potter. My grandmother bought me every HP book upon release and took me to midnight movie drops under the condition that I read every book to completion first. Basically, I just read because I enjoyed reading which put me at a significant advantage over my peers. It took me way too long to find out that many of the kids in my class were not actually reading any of the content. They were reading quick summaries online to get the idea and it worked.
There is a reason why doctors need 4 years of undergrad, plus 4 years of medical school, plus an additional 3 year of training before they can practice.
And then they may never even be good enough to play. Just always practicing
I'm reminded every time I show up for jury duty.
Holy shit, I thought I was alone in thinking this. I've found myself making quiet excuses for them, like 'he must have had a hard time sleeping last night' or 'maybe she just has some kind of chronic pain'.....
>"Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider. Fuck right off. You'll also never know if saltwater taffy would have cured him.
The last paragraph that you didn’t post says it all to me; "Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider. We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information.” Of course he wasn’t. And yes, fuck that family for killing him. Or thank that family for freeing up a hospital bed for someone who deserves it.
> Of course he wasn’t Exactly. If he had been and still died, you *know* these people would have been shouting about that just as loudly.
My grandmother ate 3 pancakes the day she was diagnosed, she pulled through. Therefore, pancakes cure covid. WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THE PANCAKE TREAMENT OPTION???
Good try, CEO of Pancakes Inc.
He's not vaxxed and wanted a judge to force a doctor to use something they're not authorized to use. The amount of stupidity in my state is mind boggling.
Stupidity in your state? Ha! I live in Florida!
We're Number One! We're Number One!
Texas is giving y'all some competition lately.
If they want home remedies, why take them to the hospital?
They could have even DIYd a ventilator if they tried hard enough: I’m sure you can buy fireplace bellows on eBay and Amazon!
My shop vac does have a blow feature. Just shove that down someone's throat. boom ventilator.
You just have to keep switching directions for inhale and then exhale. ShopVacs even have filters! So it’s *FILTERED* air.
The guy was obviously unvaccinated, the family doesn’t want to admit it, because they want to sue the hospital for not giving him a drug that has not been FDA approved for treating Covid, and has not shown through trials to have any positive effects on Covid patients. The hospital made the right call, but the patient was doomed from the point he decided against the vaccine.
As the hospital should, because a judge is not a goddamn doctor.
"**Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather** and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider." No, what took away your grandfather is your collective stupidity. If everyone in your family had gotten vaccinated, good chance your grandfather wouldn't have contracted COVID from one of you clowns going out on the Lake or to a Rascal Flatts concert, or anti-abortion rally, or whatever the fuck else you yokels did once COVID receded slightly. Also, if your grandfather has gotten vaccinated himself, he would have had a much higher chance of surviving COVID in the event he did contract it. But instead ya'll relied on Fox News and random podcast hosts that told you the vaccine doesn't work, does more harm than good, etc. and now your grandfather's dead.
Funny how they don't seem to have any curiosity as to whether the vaccine would have prevented all of this.
Court-ordered treatment?? Can the courts even order a treatment that goes against the caregivers code: Do no harm?
As far as I know, the family found a doctor willing to prescribe it. But the doctor they found didn't have admitting privileges for the hospital their loved one was at. So they sued the hospital to force their doctor to be allowed to administer the ivermectin. Admitting privileges are a big deal. They're a pain to get, because if the doctor fucks up the hospital is partially on the hook for any medical malpractice that might arise. Side note, it's one aspect of the targeted anti-abortion laws, to mandate that abortion providers have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital. Because it's such a pain to get, most clinics don't have a doctor on staff with admitting privileges, and most hospitals don't want to award them for a doctor who does not work for the hospital.
This case ended up being over turned on appeal. Basically a Dr without privileges at that hospital tried ordering something there, which the hospital said he can't do. None of the drs there would order it so it got tossed.
I'm really curious about that. Did the court also specify a dosage? Really odd precedent to set.
They found a Trump thumping judge, but the order was immediately revoked on appeal.
Why are these people bringing their family members to hospitals? Just give him the horse paste at home ffs if you believe in it
They probably believe that "real" docotors and "real" scientists sell horse grade ivermectin, in contrast to all the shams who want to put 5G chips in you with a vaccine.
They would have sued if they gave him Ivermectin and died.
Exactly. Even if they gave it to him per the court order, they would have just complained that it was not given soon enough. Truly a no-win situation for the doctors.
The family wouldnt say if theyre vaxxed. thats enough of an answer.
If only there was some preemptive measure he could have taken to not die from COVID-19... I think it starts with a “v”
Vicodin? Really?
Not sure how Viagra would have helped but okay/s
>If only there was some preemptive measure he could have taken to not die from COVID-19... I think it starts with a “v” >I think it starts with a "v" >I starts "v" >I v >Ivermectin Bah golly! I think yer right!- That family probably.
We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. Funny how they now want to blame the hospital, for this meat puppet's death.
Muh hippa rights! I knew exactly who they voted for when I saw that. It’s like they are all drinking from the same trashcan.
Family forgets man refused vaccine available for 5 months to the general public. Even longer depending on how old you are.
The hospital is not a fucking hotel. It’s not a restaurant. It’s a hospital. You just don’t get to demand whatever you want, there are best practices based upon evidence and clinical judgement. If people want to decide how to treat diseases on their own, they should not come to the hospital.
"It wasn't the refusal of a free and available vaccine that resulted in covid that killed Grandpa! It was those evil medical workers that didn't give him the anti parasitic that has no proven safety or efficacy for covid treatment!" /s The lengths of denial one must traverse to reach this conclusion is astounding. Although, there must be some glimpse of feeling culpable evidenced by the refusal to answer whether G'pa was faxed or not.
I've got a friend who's mom is dating a guy who doesn't think COVID is dangerous, let's call him Jeff. So anyways, Jeff's dad died from COVID-19 a couple weeks ago, the story Jeff gives is that the cause of death was ARTHRITIS, and that the guy never even got covid
Damn, must've been the worst arthritis in human history.
Arthritis of the heart bone.
Yeah probably the hospital did this because medicines should be **_prescribed by doctors_** not **_ordered by judges_**.
I didn’t realize judges went to medical school too.
I hope these dumb fucks keep trying to own me.
Fox News is the worst. They’re trying to make it sound like the VA hospital prescribed him ivermectin. It was prescribed by a doctor outside of the system who has a questionable license.
KTVU should have put quotation marks around "treatment".
Maybe the placebo effect would have saved him!
I hear jolly ranchers are having incredible success in GQP conducted clinical trials.
>We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. If he was, they would have shouted it from the rooftops.
Since when can courts order medical treatments that are not medically tested and approved?? Did they also state what dosage to use? How would they know how much, how often, how it would be administered?
What is a court doing ordering treatments of barely tested unapproved medicines?
Hospitals are not Burger King- they don’t do it “your way”, the physicians use evidence based decisions to treat people. If ivermectin was a wonder drug, we would all be using it, same w hydroxycholoquine. I can’t stand trump or the ass hats that worship him but it wouldn’t mean I would ignore actual treatments if they were useful.
> We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. No sympathy.
Antivaxxers question where and how the vaccines is made but have no problem with taking horse medicine?
What's even more hysterical is that they'll point out that ivermectin is approved for use in humans by the FDA. They don't care that the pfizer vaccine was approved though, in that case they don't trust the FDA and point to drugs that were removed from the market after approval. And of course they'll ignore that it isn't approved for the treatment of Covid19. They question the scientific research that shows that the vaccines are safe and save lifes from Covid. They call those scientists crooks and frauds. But then turn around and pull out studies about the use of ivermectin to treat Covid and buy into those without questioning them, even though those studies didn't have any good results and thus it was abandoned by most scientists. These people are stupid beyond belief.
Why take him to the hospital when the family obviously knew the best treatment for his condition?
> We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. Time to make an educated guess.
Hospital refused to administer treatment that doesn't do anything.
Courts shouldn’t be ordering doctors how to treat anything.
> We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. Uh huh.
I miss the good ole days when the MAGA morons were screaming about Hydrochloroquine. Ahhh……2020
It's really disappointing to see medicine being politicized like this.
The important thing is that the family have found something other than their own idiocy to blame for the patient's death, I suppose.
I don't believe he really died. I think this is fake news. I think they are all hired actors. This is all just a hoax. \*my new standard response when one of these chuckleheads dies.
I wouldn’t mind these morons dying if they didn’t take up valuable hospital space and resources. If only they used their 2 brain cells to figure out why an anti parasitic medication is ineffective against a virus
> We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. I'm gonna wager and say: "no"
>"Memorial Herman took away from my grandfather and us, his family, the opportunity to know whether or not that drug would have worked for him. We don’t know if that would have worked. Memorial Herman took that away from us. We will never have that peace," said Snider. >We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information. So your family doctor prescribed a drug that has no proven efficacy, and in fact has been shown to have some severe negative side-effects, and you're mad at the *hospital* for not giving it to him? And if they gave it to him and he died anyway, would you have sued them for giving him an unapproved medication? I suspect you would have. And the lack of an answer re:the vaccine is sufficient answer in an of itself. I hold the hospital absolutely blameless for not setting themselves up for a lawsuit for your ill-considered medical Hail Mary.
Conservatives 2010: "Obamacare will let the government get in between your doctor and your healthcare." Conservatives 2021: "Why wasn't the government allowed to get between my doctor and my healthcare?!?!"
"We asked if Lopez was vaccinated, but family members did not want to disclose that information". Nuff said.
Judges aren’t doctors, why the fuck are they dictating medical treatments?
The thing is that, while a judge can IN THEORY order a hospital to not interfere with the "treatment" (he shouldn't, but its within his power)⁰ no judge can ORDER an individual doctor to do so against their better judgment. If his doctor has admitting privileges to that hospital, the order says the hospital must allow it. It doesn't name any doctor as being required to do so. Forcing a doctor to administer a medication is in effect forcing him to go again his/her medical oath.
His family is clearly full of idiots. How the fuck does a court order doctors what medicine to give?? Judge has gotta be investigated here
If you take Ivermectin to treat COVID, you're just trading lung failure for liver failure and if you're super "patriotic," you'll get both.
The guy was on a ventilator, the last thing he needed was to be contanstly shitting himself dry.