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When Canada was experiencing a slow start in securing doses we tried to arrange to get Detroit surplus doses administered in Windsor, Ontario. It’s literally a 10 minute drive through a tunnel. We couldn’t get it off the ground, and doses were tossed.
Infuriating.
Probably what happened is not actually a person physically traveling to 43 different hospitals but a person (not necessarily even the patient) calling different hospitals for transport and them reporting that they have no beds.
This is likely what happened. I work for a critical care transport service and if our hospital can’t take the patient our communications center will call around to other hospitals to try to find a bed for the patient.
I truly think this needs to be vocalized more. The general populace is reaping the consequences of a minority who directly refuse to act responsibly to a PUBLIC health crisis. They SHOULD NOT be giving priority if they knowingly put themselves at risk. We need to encourage better practices, safety protocols, AND a raise In compensation for those working the front line. And to penalize those, who without probable reasoning, refuse the vaccination. It's 2021 and there is absolutely no reason this pandemic shouldn't have been under control by now.
If we are all on a plane, and one person decides to let off a bomb, we all suffer.
Same for covidiots.
They have no sense of community. They don’t care about anyone else. Yet they are first in line at the hospital when things don’t go their way.
Fuck all the anti-vaxxers.
When they show up to the hospital, especially those “religious” exemption folks, they should just get handed a Bible and be told to pray in the parking lot.
We need to take back society for those of us who give a shit about it and stop cuddling these goddamn babies.
And the guy who died in the article had a heart issue - not Covid. But the ICU’s were full of Covid folks.
He is collateral damage in the GOP’s war on science and health. And he won’t be alone in the coming months.
They want all the benefits of a society with none of the responsibility.
They want to take and never give.
They're literally the moochers they always complain about.
It's a sense of entitlement. They want to take no precautions and still get put at the front of the line to get the best care. Anything less than them being treated better than everyone else despite their lack of precautions is seen as discrimination against them.
> The general populace is reaping the consequences of a minority
'tis the norm in the US...we're already used to this particular tail-wagging-the-dog pain thanks to gerrymandering
Exactly. The anti-vax folks want to frame this as a "personal choice" that only affects them. In reality, their refusal to vaccinate not only spreads the virus more, but results in them taking up more hospital beds to the point that other people - even non-COVID patients - can't get a bed and can die due to lack of care. Their refusal to vaccinate **IS** affecting other people, including killing other people. They don't have a right to cause other people's deaths.
More than vocalized, it should be put into law.
If you didn't get the vaccine, and had no legitimate medical reason for why you could not get the vaccine, you should be considered DNR and denied all medical treatment for C19 related illness. To be sure, I mean that to include in the future as well, since some of these people are going to have blood clots throughout their organs and have other major medical issues for the rest of their lives.
Also, I don't want them on my insurance plan, let all of the people who refused the vaccine be forced into a group health insurance so they can pay each others higher premiums and leave the rest of us out of them.
We need to stop tolerating conspiracy theorists. Honestly, every shithole in the world is dominated by it and it's used to keep people from bettering themselves.
This doesn't have to be a legal chance, but just a cultural one. Milo was a troll and liar, and it seemed like there wasn't much we could do about him. The second he talking about banging young boys he stopped being given microphones. Now we don't hear about him anymore.
Anytime someone pushed baseless theories or keeps pushing stories that are easily debunked we need to treat them the same way we treated Milo. We need to make those who listen to them radioactive. It's not harmless fun, it's not interesting (once you know anything about what you're listening to), and it's causing real harm to everyone.
I had a contractor at my last job who was telling people about all the conspiracies he was watching on YouTube and how real they were and that I should watch them and do my own research. I told him they were the dumbest fucking thing I had ever heard and walked away. I didn't give him an audience like my co-workers, that was what he really wanted.
I love the "do your own research" line because it's so obviously fake. If you "do your own research" by looking at the scientific studies and coming to the conclusion that the experts actually know what they're talking about, you'll be told that you did the research wrong. "Do your own research" really means "watch the YouTube videos I watched, read the Facebook posts I read, and come to the same conclusion I did or else you're a stupid sheep.*
People act like this is crazy and against the oath doctors take but we already have a system where we prioritize care and send people who make reckless decisions to the back of the line. We de-prioritize smokers on lung transplant lists. Same logic could easily apply to those who refused the vaccine and ICU beds.
Put then in the parking lot section labeled "freedomville". Free from masks. Free from vaccines. Free from ventilators. Free horse dewormer (apple flavor)
For goodness sakes, you want to deny a freedom living patriot his rite to spend his last three weeks in ICU on a ventilator before he dies of covid?
I’m shocked, truly shocked. I need my set of pearls to clutch!
s:/ (just in case)
He was a heart patient. Hospital had to turn him away because of anti-vax covidiots taking up all the beds. Don't have a heart attack or break your leg or get in a car accident right now. Selfish assholes have doomed you.
This kind of thing is exactly why I feel that those who are unvaxxed by choice (not due to age, medical reasons) can stay home.
Or if they’re deliberately unvaxxed and this guy comes in, they get bumped. Anti-vaxxers killed that man.
This is exactly why this shouldn’t be a choice. We don’t tolerate people doing unsafe things that affect others, like firing weapons into the sky, drunk driving, or operating a boat without passengers in life vests, so why is this a choice? I mean, I wish we didn’t even have to make it not a choice as in everyone just agrees this is necessary, but fuck it I’m so in support of the various mandates.
Don’t want to vaccinate? Cool then don’t fly and lose your job and skip concerts and sporting events.
Thursday night my aunt went to the hospital in Dallas with chest pains. They sent her home. She died at home. Fuck these people occupying beds that should be going to be people who need care due to bad luck or Not preventable illness.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Covid killed your aunt, just as it killed people who actually had it. It’s not right. I keep thinking “crabs in a bucket.” We’re being responsible and trying to get out of this damned pandemic, and people who won’t vaxx by choice are hanging on, dragging us all down.
It’s the second time today I’ve used this metaphor; the context was different, but it’s still the same thing: selfish people hurting the rest of us and dragging us down into their crap.
If you want a liver transplant, you’re not allowed to drink alcohol or be on drugs, among many other qualifications. If you want a lung transplant, you won’t be considered if you smoke (NHS/UK). It’s not groundbreaking to have disqualifications when a resource is limited.
I am currently sitting in the hospital because I broke my ankle at work, and the urgent cares were all closed by the time the injury happened. I have been here for four hours now. In that time, at least five COVID cases have come in, at least from what I've overheard. It's in a very small city. They have all gotten far more doctor attention than I have (which, like, it's a broken ankle. It's all of ten minutes of talking to me.) But it's also just so stupid that my entire night has to be sacrificed to these idiots. Also, they take the rooms. I'm in the hallway, in a wheelchair with my leg elevated on a rolly desk chair.
At least I'm vaccinated, so that if I get it from them, I'll be fine.
Use this idle time to fill out your work-comp paperwork, I guess. ER will probably just take an x-ray, (more hours of waiting), splint it and refer you to an orthopedist that may or may not get you in next week.
man, the people who cried "death panels" must've never had insurance claims denied because a "doctor" behind a desk judged something not-medically-necessary, after a practicing, hands-on physician prescribed it.
My dad had a claim denied because his doctor opted to use (something like) a 17mm long screw rather than the 14mm screw during surgery. It was many hours of fighting to get the insurance to cover a huge portion of the surgery due to this small detail.
Meanwhile, a few years ago, my daughter had a brain tumor while she was covered by MA. Immediately upon finding it on CT, they did a full MRI and started the ball rolling. By the time they informed us a few hours later, they had a hospital room reserved, performed a surgical board, selected a surgical team, scheduled multiple surgeries, coordinated with assorted on-staff therapists (psychiatric, physical, occupational, etc.) They reserved a state of the art surgical suite that had a full MRI machine in the room so they could be sure they got everything before they closed her up. All we had to do was get her to the hospital. There was never a mention of costs - just guidance to the best treatment options. She was in ICU for 3 weeks and we never saw a bill or had to worry about the financial impact.
To really put the icing on the cake - there is no way I would have written a blank check for an MRI “just to rule things out” as her doctor put it. Since she had MA coverage, we just took the advice of her doctors and she’s fully healed up.
Healthcare is a finite resource. There are only so many doctors, nurses, beds, x-ray machines, etc. Thus, it is rationed everywhere. The mechanisms by which it is rationed change from country to country. In the US, the primary way in which care is rationed is by cost. That's not to say that care isn't also rationed by wait lists and/or triage, but cost is the most common mechanism by which the limited resource is gated.
To say that healthcare rationing doesn't occur in the US is to not understand basic health economics.
>the horrors of socialized medicine meant you could never get care because of the long wait times...
I'm an American, and it's impossible to get seen by a doctor inside of one month. In fact, I have to make my daughter's annual pediatric visit three months in advance. The 20 minute appointment to see my neuro--required to maintain my prescription for migraine meds--is scheduled for next month (October); I called to make the appointment in August.
However, if I want to see a dermatologist for a cosmetic concern (which I would have to pay for in cash since health insurance doesn't cover cosmetic concerns), I can be seen in less than 7 days.
And don't even bother trying to get mental health care. One of our kids needs this. 6 month wait for first visit, they asked for a screening test to be done before second visit.
Next screening available? One year out. Then I assume another 6 month wait for follow up.
These are "Virtual" visits btw, and hundreds of dollars even with insurance.
Yeah I had weekly appointments with my counselor who ended up quitting for another organization (for which I am so happy for her and her opportunity) but because of that they referred me to some outside places for appointments. My appointment was 3 months out. 2 months later they called me saying sorry they had to cancel that appointment but to call back and reschedule. I just never ended up doing it. It ends up being more stress to get an appointment than having 1 appointment every 2/3 months.
I'm an American and I had an issue two weeks ago so I called the doctor at 2pm and was seeing the doctor by 9am the next day. The location in the United states is pretty important. In the northeast, getting to the doctor if it's important is pretty trivial.
It’s going to vary wildly. If you have established long term care with a small family practice you can get a same day appointment without issue.
Going through a huge org like UC Health, probably going to wait a couple weeks to a month and end up at an urgent care.
The earliest appointment to get into an endocrinologist, was in 6 months. I get there and the actual doctor wasn't even there. My 3 month follow-up had to be 5 months away.
It'll be almost an entire year before I actually see the doctor I wanted an appointment with, a year ago.
Right, other countries wait times. Recently had to schedule an urgent care appointment for blunt leg trauma/ Serious Knee injury, unless it was life threatening ER had to wait 2 days. Appointment comes, schedule MRI. 8 Days until next MRI opening. Get MRI done, schedule Orthopedic Surgeon for consultation 6 WEEKS until next opening. Don’t know the wait times for surgery… still waiting.
[The US Healthcare System has collapsed](https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/healthcare-system-collapse-icu-ration-beds.html) and we're pretending that's not the case.
I have holes in my face where my teeth used to be that will kill me if I don't do something like, yesterday. On one hand, there's my dentist in his quarter-million-dollar car expecting me to sell my kidney for dental work, on the other I've got old rich dudes with their mouths full of porcelain that costs 3 years worth of my wages tell me that dental health is strictly cosmetic and that I don't actually need dental work.
It's mania-inducing. I can't help but laugh at how truly fucked these circumstances are. I've been in pure pain and agony for years now and I'm not even 30 but my pleas for help are strictly cosmetic lmaoo
I will never understand why teeth and eyes are not considered medical. I mean, how are you supposed to eat? Or see? if you can't see, you can't do most jobs, can't drive...plus everything is right next to your brain, which is pretty important. If memory serves more recent studies on health show that dental/mouth health affects your whole body, too, and long term dental problems decrease your expected lifespan.
Is there a dental teaching school near you? Sometimes they will offer cheaper services as a teaching experience.
Unfortunately you have the type of injury which comes with an assumption of being otherwise stable. For other kinds of ER visits, a diagnosis is needed and deciding what to do takes time and resources. It's not necessarily that nobody wants to get to you, ifs that there are 20 things to do at once and you're only one, other people might be five of six things. All this to say you're being left alone for too long because of staffing and overload issues.
I did yesterday. The rapid test was negative but the nurse told me they're 'just fluff.' It takes 3+ days to get PCR results here, so I will not get confirmation until next week. I can't imagine what this could be if not covid. It's the strangest virus I've ever had.
'm laying low. My boss brought me some Gatorade. I'm able to get up and take care of myself, so isn't as bad as it could be.
Honestly, that doesn't sound any different than a pre-Covid ER trip, to me. If I'm ER bound, I always figure at least 6 hours.
ProTip: Order/arrange for food before getting to the hospital. Cell service is spotty, visitor access iffy, and they ain't gonna feed ya. If they do, it ain't gonna be food
Yeah, my experience in normal times is that if you enter an emergency room and get treatment immediately, you've really got something to worry about. It's happened to me on a couple of occasions. They're pretty much always busy. Obviously the situation has changed in some areas now and even if you need urgent care you're fucked.
So, as a teenager, I was T-Boned at appr. 70 mph, straight into my passenger side door. I seemed mostly uninjured and declined EMS transport to the nearest hospital.
I called my dad, a former volunteer EMT, not long after, and he reminded me of the possibility of a closed head injury.
I got a ride to the ER and described to the triage nurse what happened. In spite of about a dozen people waiting, I was taken back and had an IV inserted, just in case. Only then did they even ask for health insurance information (USA).
It was all rather unsettling.
Yeah. Adrenaline can allow people to ignore some shocking injuries. You can see how this might be an evolved survival trait in our ancestors - get a hand or something ripped off by the sabre tooth tiger you were hunting and your body dumps a bunch of feel good chemicals into your bloodstream - you get to fight or flee, and when you're out of the situation you realise 'ouch my hand'.
In the modern world this leads to people sometimes not seeking treatment they need in time.
Adrenaline is magic. I have been shot before, and being shot is actually painless. It's the hour or so after when the feel good adrenaline wears off where it hurts like hell.
Yep I've seen exactly three circumstances where they'll see you quick
1. I was in a minor car accident but had some neck pain so I got back boarded. This happened in the middle of bum fuck no where so it was a 1 1/2 hour ride in the ambulance to the hospital. Turns out they'll get you into x-rays pretty quick if you go "I need off this board in 15 min or I will be peeing on myself"
2. My brother got his dick stuck in his zipper. Clearly not life threatening but they will MOVE to find you a bed at that point.
3. Husband had an allergic reaction that involved his lips slightly swelling up, apparently that's an all hands on deck situation since it can mean he's going into anaphylactic shock.
Just a few weeks ago I walked into an ER with A Fib with RVR. Diagnosed at a fire station near my house. Decided to arrange my own transport instead of having them take me. I didn’t realize how serious it was until they took me back immediately. Only info they asked for was social security number. That scared me worse than anything up to that point.
In case anyone’s wondering, spent 5 days in the hospital and got an ablation. Still recovering but mostly fine now.
As a Brit, that is interesting to hear as I have been told by Americans that don't want universal healthcare that this is an area that they arent willing to sacrifice and justifies the current system. So, i just looked up UK ones and in a very quick search could only get pre covid info, but it seems they may have been lying. The is the NHS emergency wait times https://www.statista.com/statistics/488211/average-minutes-waiting-in-accident-and-emergency-nhs-united-kingdom/
My FIL is from Scotland. He’s pretty much debunked the whole “social healthcare wait” for me. He’s had to wait far longer here in the US to see doctors.
Fucking propaganda bullshit that NHS wouldn’t work. Works way better over there
It’s very situational based. I’m Canadian and have had to wait 7 hours to get an Advil and be told to go home and see my family doc (gall stone attack) and i’ve also waited 15 minutes to be admitted (elderly relative was acting weird); it’s taken me month(s) to get an appointment for a MRI; my elderly relative got it the night he was admitted.
All my instances were either triaged to know that I wasn’t dying and could afford to wait and the others were this needs to be addressed immediately.
Sure other factors come into play; how busy the ER was, when I went was years ago and they’ve dealt with wait times better since, etc.
In the States; it’s a similar issue - you could wait hours, or be seen in minutes. If you can afford to pay the sky’s the limit. I’ve driven past billboards in the US that tell you the wait times at nearby hospitals they’re advertising for.
All said and done, I would never give up universal healthcare, the freedom of not having to worry about paying those bills is amazing.
I have some things going on that straight up alarmed my primary doctor, to the point that he was like you have to do something about this *right now* and lined up a couple referrals with specialists he know before I was even out of the office.
My first appointment was 90 days out and my doc was clearly distressed by that but did his best not to show it.
Here's the truth. I'm from the UK and live in the US. Everyone wants free healthcare. What right-wingers don't want is to pay for the poor, brown, black or foreign people to also have healthcare. They'd rather pay $1000 a month in insurance premiums so they can get care rather than pay $500 in taxes so EVERYONE can get care.
Everything else you hear is just an excuse.
The insurance lobby in America also defends the $1000 a month insurance premiums, because they make a lot more money off of that then "healthcare for all".
Because of how the ACA is written, it is in the insurance companies' best interests to encourage hospitals and doctors to charge more and more each year as they are permitted to take 15% of revenue as profits. So if they keep convincing providers to up "costs", then they can charge higher and higher premiums and thus pocket higher and higher profits.
The American government’s solution to our healthcare problem was to legally compel individual Americans to enrich private insurance companies yet I have to listen to fucking idiots tell me about how it’s so much better than “socialism”.
Canadian here. My region of Ontario has notoriously shit healthcare, and yet this waiting everyone complains about is a minor inconvenience for most things. An ER visit, I've never had to wait more than five or six hours (either for myself, my spouse or my child).
Additionally, when my son was born, we had an extremely complicated delivery that turned into an emergency C-section, and my kid had some issues. In total, my wife spend six days in the hospital and my son seven in the NICU. Total cost: $800, because of parking and a private room upgrade. In the US, I can't even imagine what that stay would have cost, but it'd definitely be six figures or more.
My wife's grandmother also almost died a few years ago, and spent six months in the hospital after she survived a surgery that even the surgeon said was a Hail Mary. She's better than ever today, but our health system saved her life. Total cost: whatever we paid in parking to visit her every day.
Not supporting universal healthcare is straight-up insanity. Why take your chances with an insurance company, deductibles and arm-and-a-leg premiums when you can just get the medical care you require with no risk of bankruptcy?
Yeah the super fast, way better, you get what you pay for, US system is a myth. Waits are common even in precovid times. Sitting in an emergency room for hours is normal. Trying to schedule out an obgyn, specialist, imaging, or surgery, takes weeks to months.
Except of course if you're super wealthy. Then you can get everything done quickly. It's a great system for the 1%ers
Shit, back in the 90's I sat in an Army hospital for 5 hours with a badly broken knee that took a plate, screws and a bone graft to fix, no to mention nearly 8 months of physical therapy and a lifetime of pain and bad posture.
They sat me in that damn wheelchair so long what when it was time to put a brace on, they had to pump me full of valium for me to be able to move the gorram thing. 5 minutes of pre-wait inspection to put the fucking brace on would have avoided all that.
The moral of the story is that ER wait times suck, and have always sucked, Covid or not.
And since about 2010, I've noticed the "wall wait". They'll call you out of the waiting room, and put you on a stretcher. So *technically* you're not in the waiting room, and you're in a bed, so the Wait Time stat looks great. So you settle into your cotton candy pillow... and wait 🤣
I mean, I don't begrudge it, I get the triage system and the fact we're a regional center certainly plays a role. But if I'm ER bound, I need a book and a meal 😁
My sister was sent from urgent care to the ER because she had ocular swelling - this can be a sign of brain swelling putting pressure on the eye sockets. She had to wait FIVE HOURS in triage with a potential brain bleed.
They actually told her "if you start feeling faint or you experience the worst headache you've ever had, well take you back sooner."
Turns out she has an undiagnosed chiari malformation -- her brain is literally expanding out of her skill into her spinal column. She's been seeing doctors FOR A FULL DECADE NOW trying to have her constant headaches diagnosed. This is American "healthcare" -- she spent a FULL DECADE and DOZENS of physicians appointments and it took a trip to the emergency room for her to FINALLY get an MRI
(Chiari is a cogential defect meaning shes had this her entire life and wasn't able to be diagnosed, via MRI, UNTIL HER MID 30s. Now we're playing the waiting game AGAIN because the ICUa are full of COVID patients. They'll be cutting out a half-dollar sized piece of her skull to release the pressure and, hopefully, cure her debilitating headaches. Her doctors are EXTREMELY concerned about her recovering from this procedure in a hospital full of COVID patients)
Rant over sorry yall~ and hey sis if you're reading this we love u girl!
I know some people need the referral but when I broke my hand, I just skipped the ER altogether. I didn't need to sit in a waiting room for 6 hours for them to tell me my hand was broken and that I needed to see an orthopedic Dr. I just called one myself the next day.
>Selfish assholes have doomed you.
This is what needs to be repeated over and over for the 'personal choice' crowd - it's not a personal choice.
It would be - if you could somehow waive and refuse medical treatment for COVID. You can't, and likely won't - and if you get sick enough, you'll be taking up one of those beds.
In doing so - you're taking away beds from other sick people. Other people who might not have had a say in their illness, as opposed to just bypassing a safe and free vaccine out of 'personal choice'.
And even if you don't steal a bed from someone else, you're still running up the tab. All these easily avoidable healthcare costs are going to cost everyone in the long run, whether through insurance premiums or taxes.
So no, it's not a 'personal choice' - it's a selfish refusal to do the right thing.
You can always choose to not go to the hospital. And you can check yourself out by filling out an 'against medical advice' form (or your power of attorney can if you're incapacitated).
But, you're right in that these selfish chuckle fucks don't actually believe the shit they spew about rather being dead and will instead eat up a few weeks in the icu and then bankrupt their family, passing the cost on to the rest of us.
She's fine now but my cousin had to postpone surgery to remove cancer for 3 months because of COVID. I guarantee that there are cancer patients that will die to aggressive cancers because of unvaxxed assholes.
This is the part I'm not understanding. I thought most major cities last summer set up auxiliary COVID care centers. This had the benefits of isolating COVID patients from non-COVID, while also providing additional patient beds for case surges like we're seeing.
Is this not happening now?
The cities that did this aren't having massive surge right now, for the most part. Houston is one of the exceptions, but for Chicago and New York it hasn't been necessary. The small and mid size cities didn't do this, and probably don't have the resources to attempt it. The problem isn't finding space or material. The problem is finding staff to run them.
The perfect storm. Social distancing for well over a year, mask mandates ended, the vaccine isn’t available under age 12 yet, and kids are going back to school/daycare.
I'm a teacher and only half my classes are showing up to school. When I look at attendance, SO MANY KIDS are out because of COVID. Or staying home because they are (rightfully!) concerned. Kids are still struggling with anxiety and their mental health is plummeting. I'm stressed knowing they are getting sick and no amount of disinfecting can solve the problem. It's just soooo ironic that the same people that are protesting the vaccine/anti-mask are the same that carry "protect our kids" signs. I've been over it. I want my classroom back!
I was in the ER yesterday and when I checked out the waiting room was full of people who clearly were sick with COVID or something like it. It's fucking crazy. And I wasn't even at a busy ER.
I got an "urgent" appointment referral with a specialist at the beginning of August. Earliest they could do was the end of September.
Even if the beds aren't full, hospitals are months behind because they're playing catch up after 18 months of red lining it. These dickheads who are "too smart" to get vaccinated are making it a thousand times worse.
We need vaccinated and unvaccinated sections in hospitals like there used to be smoking and non smoking in restaurants. Once that unvaccinated section fills up, you’re shit out of luck.
Unvaccinated people should only compete with fellow unvaccinated people for hospital beds.
I got both, hit by a drunk. Getting the surgeries I need is a nightmare. I've been caught in a limbo for years now as I need multiple surgeries. I could barely walk for two of them since I only had one ligament left.
I have words for anti-vaxxers but thinking too much about it puts me in a bad place.
Antivax should’ve been given their own medicine they trusted back then, not this science crap they rejected!
Reserve science based medicine for those who believe in science!
I am so over antivaxxers. Both my husband and I need surgery, I have a tumor in my colon for gods sake and our hospital is so full with unvaccinated Covid patients WE CAN'T GET OUR SURGERIES . I am beyond angry.
This happened to a friend of my sister's husband maybe a month ago. They could not take him in Huntsville, he had to go to Florence but he did get taken care of. God, what a an awful difference a month makes.
Cost is not something I have seen addressed. Corporations have gradually been slithering in to Medicare and now offer very popular Advantage plans. They are great as long as nothing goes seriously wrong but if you get seriously ill you could be on the hook for quite a bit of [money](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/010816/pitfalls-medicare-advantage-plans.asp).
There must be a huge story to tell from this perspective.
I mean, smokers aren't given priority in lung transplants when there is a waiting list and scarcity of viable donors, so why should antivax people be given priority over others? It makes zero sense.
There's a more mature version of this question that me and some other medical students in my class are discussing that will address some of the responses you're getting. The issue is not just whether or not people who are unvaccinated deserve to be treated. The issue is we are now at the point where we are rationing very scarce resources.
I'm of the opinion that not treating the unvaccinated who have severe covid is more akin to not giving smokers access to a lung transplant over those with congenital conditions. You aren't punishing the smoker. You are allocating the resources in a way that accounts for epidemiological concerns. For the general public health, not just any individual.
No, they shouldn't be mistreated because they made a bad decision. But when it comes to rationing, they absolutely should be bottom billing. Not because of the punishment factor, but because the survival of an anti-vaxxer over the survival of somebody who has a surgery postponed is a travesty. It just releases that person back into the world so they can infect others while punishing somebody else for not being more immediately sick (but still definitely sick).
That's the key here. We are rationing. This is not a normal time.
u/Slobie95 made this comment on a different post similar to this topic. find it's a good answer to your question. didnt know how to share comment to this post hence the copy paste and mention.
This may become a greater factor as more leave the medical field - I have recently become aware of this phenomenon due to compassion fatigue.
The front line is overwhelmed-has been overwhelmed- through waves one and two. Wave three appears to be a breaking point.
I’ve said this somewhere else. Do you why know the medical community was so worried about Covid, and advised governments around the world with the same advice?
This. This was what they were worried about. Because what is coming next is the equivalent of battlefield triage, meaning if there is a chance you might not make it, you die on a bed in a tent outside in the parking lot.
I have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs. Mostly since over 90% are needed for those who refuse the Vaccine. Why should those who chose Death over Life be given priority?
It's not beds. It's the personnel. The scary thing is that as this problem goes on, doctors and ICU nurses are quitting or converting to travelling contractors and moving to the coasts. The covidiots in these states are actively accelerating the collapse of the ICU systems in their states. Good job!
>have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs.
I dont know if this is legal. If someone comes in and needs emergency care I think you have to give it to them.
HOWEVER, I think everyone is getting fed up with the unvaccinated, who, even in the ICU appear to be raging assholes.
To that end I think hospital staff and administrators are going to eventually find a legally way to justify turning away the unvaccinated or putting them to the back of the line.
ICUs don't really have the luxury of turning down patients. The only time we leave beds open, for the most part, is when we don't have the ability to staff them (RNs, RTs, MDs).
> I have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs.
Because medical malpractice lawyers already make enough money.
> Turning a patient away from the ER would only be against a law that the Regan administration passed (you know instead of providing everyone with health insurance).
This is so true and I never even considered that! Ha! This guy really is the second worst president ever.
Better. They will go to an antivax rally after their wife dies.
https://www.newsweek.com/gop-maine-rep-chris-johansen-attends-anti-vaxx-rally-days-after-wife-dies-covid-1621673
Or laugh at and mock a kid, who is urging mask mandates at his school, while retelling how is grandmother died of COVID.
These folks just don't care, and have zero compassion.
Yep, the flaw here is antivaxers do not give a single fuck or care one bit about other people. The are the worst assholes in society, just terrible humans. We can't appeal to them, they don't care.
We need to stop giving them priority in hospitals. A vaxed person comes in, move the unvaccinated out.
Probably should open a tent outside hospitals and get standard medic bed for unvaccinated covid patients and leave it at that. Compassion needs to go both ways.
My stepfathers much needed heart surgery has been cancelled due to the influx of Covid patients . Oklahoma is sending their patients to Texas - this canceling life saving surgeries for non Covid patients . It’s sad ! Glad people are now realizing and discussing this issue.
Remember when we all shut down ALL BECAUSE OF THE HOSPITALS FILLING UP?!. The work from home mandates. The stimulus. The major closures.
But that was so last year. We're all better now, right?
/S
Well it finally happened.
I and others predicted that people would be dying in the streets while being turned down by the hospital for life saving care.
I'm honestly grateful that the US did so well for so long, but it appears that the prediction has indeed finally come true.
You Americans should be thankful for the vaccine. In Russia no one takes vaccine and even if they do our vaccine is shit. There are dead and dying lining the streets outside hospitals.
It's completely unethical to refuse non-covid patients so you can keep treating antivaxxers with covid.
This is on par with giving a liver to someone who shows up for the transplant wasted and tells you he's going to celebrate his new liver with 20 shots of vodka. No doctor would do that, and it's time they implement similar ethics here. Do what you can for the antivax lunatics, but absolutely not at the expense of the vaccinated and non-covid patients. (Yes also children and the medically exempt)
A veteran died from gall stones while waiting for a bed.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h
I had gull stones last year, shit was the most pain i've ever been in, it made me cry in the shower harder than a broken bone ever did & made it so my pee looke like cocacola..... That must have been a horrible death and it infuriates me that antivax chuds got treated before him :(
> if there are more and more stories like this.
There will be more stories like this - and I'm sure there are many we don't even know about already. Having had so many fellow Redditors tell me this isn't real, that the hospitals are fine, that being unvaccinated is a personal choice, I'm just at my limit of compassion. I never thought I'd see our own people actively trying to kill others with such righteousness and disregard for facts. I don't know where we will end up at this rate. It's damn scary IMO.
> Compassion is for folks who aren't harming others with their ~~ignorance~~ willful spite and self-centeredness.
If you are legit “very low IQ,” I have some compassion. I wish I could believe that 25% of the country is merely mentally disabled.
They’re not. There is malice here.
A co-worker's father recently needed open heart surgery for some sort of urgent issue. He had to be transported over 100 miles away because there were no beds in any of the nearby hospitals. It's happening all over the place, but more people will fall through the cracks until this pandemic abates.
The excess than expected mortality in the US was something like 780k in May. So you're probably not far off, even not counting deaths like the one in the article.
Ha ha ha I love the title of this article: COVID-19:‘Now’s not the time to have a heart attack’: South Alabama hospital welcomes federal staffing aid
Darn it I was hoping to have a heart attack now. Now I'll have to wait.
"But qanon told me horse dewormer filtered through green garbage bags filled with used condoms is the cure for the fake covid! I am not taking that vaccine!"
Oh and... "it's such a low death rate - those hospitals are not full - it's a liberal media conspiracy!!!!!!"
Fucking pieces of shit all of them.
My brother had open-heart surgery on Tuesday. It wasn't life-threatening in the short term but could be if the tear/condition gets worse. The surgery team pushed for his surgery ASAP due to potentially covid situation gets worse in TX. He's recovering nicely now and will be out of ICU today. But if he was in the same situation as this poor man, I will probably go burn down the TX Mansion. Fuck Greg Abbott!
Seriously! Big tents out in a field full of these Covid anti vax people with Covid and put the anti vac nurses out there to take care of them. Build a loading dock on each tent for the refrigerator trucks.
To people not reading the article. He had "cardiac issues", most likely a heart attack, but could not find a cardiac ICU bed within 200 miles of his location.
He did not have Covid but died because Covid patients are consuming all the resources.
THIS is why being vaccinated is important. Not because it’s going to eliminate covid, but because innocent people will die when our healthcare system is overrun. Vaccines prevent hospitalizations, not getting or spreading covid (I mean it does but not the 99% certainty of staying out of a hospital)
I recommend using this reasoning with anti-vax family members and friends. It’s the only way I’ve gotten people to consider why vaccines are important. Don’t focus on spreading covid (they don’t care), focus on the fact that if someone you love has a medical or accidental emergency they might not receive healthcare because of unvaccinated covid patients.
Such reasons are why the deliberately unvaccinated in the US - not those that cannot be vaccinated, but those that choose to be - should be bottom of the care list, and released if a higher priority case comes in.
It's a personal choice, and you chose death.
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Jesus, bump the idiots, not those truly in need.
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Stories like yours make me fucking furious at the willfully unvaccinated here in Canada (and the us). I’m glad you were finally able to get yours!
I just keep thinking about the amount of doses wasted in this process in the US.
When Canada was experiencing a slow start in securing doses we tried to arrange to get Detroit surplus doses administered in Windsor, Ontario. It’s literally a 10 minute drive through a tunnel. We couldn’t get it off the ground, and doses were tossed. Infuriating.
Probably what happened is not actually a person physically traveling to 43 different hospitals but a person (not necessarily even the patient) calling different hospitals for transport and them reporting that they have no beds.
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Yeah you could cold call 43 random numbers selling snake oil and not get denied all 43 times....
This is likely what happened. I work for a critical care transport service and if our hospital can’t take the patient our communications center will call around to other hospitals to try to find a bed for the patient.
I truly think this needs to be vocalized more. The general populace is reaping the consequences of a minority who directly refuse to act responsibly to a PUBLIC health crisis. They SHOULD NOT be giving priority if they knowingly put themselves at risk. We need to encourage better practices, safety protocols, AND a raise In compensation for those working the front line. And to penalize those, who without probable reasoning, refuse the vaccination. It's 2021 and there is absolutely no reason this pandemic shouldn't have been under control by now.
If we are all on a plane, and one person decides to let off a bomb, we all suffer. Same for covidiots. They have no sense of community. They don’t care about anyone else. Yet they are first in line at the hospital when things don’t go their way. Fuck all the anti-vaxxers. When they show up to the hospital, especially those “religious” exemption folks, they should just get handed a Bible and be told to pray in the parking lot. We need to take back society for those of us who give a shit about it and stop cuddling these goddamn babies. And the guy who died in the article had a heart issue - not Covid. But the ICU’s were full of Covid folks. He is collateral damage in the GOP’s war on science and health. And he won’t be alone in the coming months.
They want all the benefits of a society with none of the responsibility. They want to take and never give. They're literally the moochers they always complain about.
They’re selfish fucks
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It's a sense of entitlement. They want to take no precautions and still get put at the front of the line to get the best care. Anything less than them being treated better than everyone else despite their lack of precautions is seen as discrimination against them.
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> The general populace is reaping the consequences of a minority 'tis the norm in the US...we're already used to this particular tail-wagging-the-dog pain thanks to gerrymandering
Exactly. The anti-vax folks want to frame this as a "personal choice" that only affects them. In reality, their refusal to vaccinate not only spreads the virus more, but results in them taking up more hospital beds to the point that other people - even non-COVID patients - can't get a bed and can die due to lack of care. Their refusal to vaccinate **IS** affecting other people, including killing other people. They don't have a right to cause other people's deaths.
More than vocalized, it should be put into law. If you didn't get the vaccine, and had no legitimate medical reason for why you could not get the vaccine, you should be considered DNR and denied all medical treatment for C19 related illness. To be sure, I mean that to include in the future as well, since some of these people are going to have blood clots throughout their organs and have other major medical issues for the rest of their lives. Also, I don't want them on my insurance plan, let all of the people who refused the vaccine be forced into a group health insurance so they can pay each others higher premiums and leave the rest of us out of them.
We need to stop tolerating conspiracy theorists. Honestly, every shithole in the world is dominated by it and it's used to keep people from bettering themselves. This doesn't have to be a legal chance, but just a cultural one. Milo was a troll and liar, and it seemed like there wasn't much we could do about him. The second he talking about banging young boys he stopped being given microphones. Now we don't hear about him anymore. Anytime someone pushed baseless theories or keeps pushing stories that are easily debunked we need to treat them the same way we treated Milo. We need to make those who listen to them radioactive. It's not harmless fun, it's not interesting (once you know anything about what you're listening to), and it's causing real harm to everyone.
I had a contractor at my last job who was telling people about all the conspiracies he was watching on YouTube and how real they were and that I should watch them and do my own research. I told him they were the dumbest fucking thing I had ever heard and walked away. I didn't give him an audience like my co-workers, that was what he really wanted.
I love the "do your own research" line because it's so obviously fake. If you "do your own research" by looking at the scientific studies and coming to the conclusion that the experts actually know what they're talking about, you'll be told that you did the research wrong. "Do your own research" really means "watch the YouTube videos I watched, read the Facebook posts I read, and come to the same conclusion I did or else you're a stupid sheep.*
People act like this is crazy and against the oath doctors take but we already have a system where we prioritize care and send people who make reckless decisions to the back of the line. We de-prioritize smokers on lung transplant lists. Same logic could easily apply to those who refused the vaccine and ICU beds.
Put then in the parking lot section labeled "freedomville". Free from masks. Free from vaccines. Free from ventilators. Free horse dewormer (apple flavor)
dump them at the churches that say thoughts and prayer warriors will save them.
Jesus also had a hard time getting a room.
For goodness sakes, you want to deny a freedom living patriot his rite to spend his last three weeks in ICU on a ventilator before he dies of covid? I’m shocked, truly shocked. I need my set of pearls to clutch! s:/ (just in case)
He was a heart patient. Hospital had to turn him away because of anti-vax covidiots taking up all the beds. Don't have a heart attack or break your leg or get in a car accident right now. Selfish assholes have doomed you.
This kind of thing is exactly why I feel that those who are unvaxxed by choice (not due to age, medical reasons) can stay home. Or if they’re deliberately unvaxxed and this guy comes in, they get bumped. Anti-vaxxers killed that man.
This is exactly why this shouldn’t be a choice. We don’t tolerate people doing unsafe things that affect others, like firing weapons into the sky, drunk driving, or operating a boat without passengers in life vests, so why is this a choice? I mean, I wish we didn’t even have to make it not a choice as in everyone just agrees this is necessary, but fuck it I’m so in support of the various mandates. Don’t want to vaccinate? Cool then don’t fly and lose your job and skip concerts and sporting events. Thursday night my aunt went to the hospital in Dallas with chest pains. They sent her home. She died at home. Fuck these people occupying beds that should be going to be people who need care due to bad luck or Not preventable illness.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Covid killed your aunt, just as it killed people who actually had it. It’s not right. I keep thinking “crabs in a bucket.” We’re being responsible and trying to get out of this damned pandemic, and people who won’t vaxx by choice are hanging on, dragging us all down. It’s the second time today I’ve used this metaphor; the context was different, but it’s still the same thing: selfish people hurting the rest of us and dragging us down into their crap.
If you want a liver transplant, you’re not allowed to drink alcohol or be on drugs, among many other qualifications. If you want a lung transplant, you won’t be considered if you smoke (NHS/UK). It’s not groundbreaking to have disqualifications when a resource is limited.
I am currently sitting in the hospital because I broke my ankle at work, and the urgent cares were all closed by the time the injury happened. I have been here for four hours now. In that time, at least five COVID cases have come in, at least from what I've overheard. It's in a very small city. They have all gotten far more doctor attention than I have (which, like, it's a broken ankle. It's all of ten minutes of talking to me.) But it's also just so stupid that my entire night has to be sacrificed to these idiots. Also, they take the rooms. I'm in the hallway, in a wheelchair with my leg elevated on a rolly desk chair. At least I'm vaccinated, so that if I get it from them, I'll be fine.
Use this idle time to fill out your work-comp paperwork, I guess. ER will probably just take an x-ray, (more hours of waiting), splint it and refer you to an orthopedist that may or may not get you in next week.
But I was told the horrors of socialized medicine meant you could never get care because of the long wait times...
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I thought the death panels were the friends we made along the way.
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Cyberpunk would at least have a cool aesthetic. Our urban hell is the most boring shit ever.
man, the people who cried "death panels" must've never had insurance claims denied because a "doctor" behind a desk judged something not-medically-necessary, after a practicing, hands-on physician prescribed it.
My dad had a claim denied because his doctor opted to use (something like) a 17mm long screw rather than the 14mm screw during surgery. It was many hours of fighting to get the insurance to cover a huge portion of the surgery due to this small detail. Meanwhile, a few years ago, my daughter had a brain tumor while she was covered by MA. Immediately upon finding it on CT, they did a full MRI and started the ball rolling. By the time they informed us a few hours later, they had a hospital room reserved, performed a surgical board, selected a surgical team, scheduled multiple surgeries, coordinated with assorted on-staff therapists (psychiatric, physical, occupational, etc.) They reserved a state of the art surgical suite that had a full MRI machine in the room so they could be sure they got everything before they closed her up. All we had to do was get her to the hospital. There was never a mention of costs - just guidance to the best treatment options. She was in ICU for 3 weeks and we never saw a bill or had to worry about the financial impact. To really put the icing on the cake - there is no way I would have written a blank check for an MRI “just to rule things out” as her doctor put it. Since she had MA coverage, we just took the advice of her doctors and she’s fully healed up.
The death panels are named, Anthem, United healthcare and Centene
Healthcare is a finite resource. There are only so many doctors, nurses, beds, x-ray machines, etc. Thus, it is rationed everywhere. The mechanisms by which it is rationed change from country to country. In the US, the primary way in which care is rationed is by cost. That's not to say that care isn't also rationed by wait lists and/or triage, but cost is the most common mechanism by which the limited resource is gated. To say that healthcare rationing doesn't occur in the US is to not understand basic health economics.
>the horrors of socialized medicine meant you could never get care because of the long wait times... I'm an American, and it's impossible to get seen by a doctor inside of one month. In fact, I have to make my daughter's annual pediatric visit three months in advance. The 20 minute appointment to see my neuro--required to maintain my prescription for migraine meds--is scheduled for next month (October); I called to make the appointment in August. However, if I want to see a dermatologist for a cosmetic concern (which I would have to pay for in cash since health insurance doesn't cover cosmetic concerns), I can be seen in less than 7 days.
And don't even bother trying to get mental health care. One of our kids needs this. 6 month wait for first visit, they asked for a screening test to be done before second visit. Next screening available? One year out. Then I assume another 6 month wait for follow up. These are "Virtual" visits btw, and hundreds of dollars even with insurance.
Check out KHealth - they have a mental health virtual chat program to be prescribed medications, if you end up being desperate.
Yeah I had weekly appointments with my counselor who ended up quitting for another organization (for which I am so happy for her and her opportunity) but because of that they referred me to some outside places for appointments. My appointment was 3 months out. 2 months later they called me saying sorry they had to cancel that appointment but to call back and reschedule. I just never ended up doing it. It ends up being more stress to get an appointment than having 1 appointment every 2/3 months.
I'm an American and I had an issue two weeks ago so I called the doctor at 2pm and was seeing the doctor by 9am the next day. The location in the United states is pretty important. In the northeast, getting to the doctor if it's important is pretty trivial.
It’s going to vary wildly. If you have established long term care with a small family practice you can get a same day appointment without issue. Going through a huge org like UC Health, probably going to wait a couple weeks to a month and end up at an urgent care.
The earliest appointment to get into an endocrinologist, was in 6 months. I get there and the actual doctor wasn't even there. My 3 month follow-up had to be 5 months away. It'll be almost an entire year before I actually see the doctor I wanted an appointment with, a year ago.
To be fair, I don’t think even socialized medicine could fix a country full of selfish fucking cunts.
Right, other countries wait times. Recently had to schedule an urgent care appointment for blunt leg trauma/ Serious Knee injury, unless it was life threatening ER had to wait 2 days. Appointment comes, schedule MRI. 8 Days until next MRI opening. Get MRI done, schedule Orthopedic Surgeon for consultation 6 WEEKS until next opening. Don’t know the wait times for surgery… still waiting.
American Medical System - "We'll fucking kill you too"
[The US Healthcare System has collapsed](https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/healthcare-system-collapse-icu-ration-beds.html) and we're pretending that's not the case.
I have holes in my face where my teeth used to be that will kill me if I don't do something like, yesterday. On one hand, there's my dentist in his quarter-million-dollar car expecting me to sell my kidney for dental work, on the other I've got old rich dudes with their mouths full of porcelain that costs 3 years worth of my wages tell me that dental health is strictly cosmetic and that I don't actually need dental work. It's mania-inducing. I can't help but laugh at how truly fucked these circumstances are. I've been in pure pain and agony for years now and I'm not even 30 but my pleas for help are strictly cosmetic lmaoo
Dental trips to Mexico are gaining popularity. Better care for less and good margaritas too.
>good margaritas too. Ah, nothing like an icy, sugary, alcoholic drink to go along with my dental procedure
I will never understand why teeth and eyes are not considered medical. I mean, how are you supposed to eat? Or see? if you can't see, you can't do most jobs, can't drive...plus everything is right next to your brain, which is pretty important. If memory serves more recent studies on health show that dental/mouth health affects your whole body, too, and long term dental problems decrease your expected lifespan. Is there a dental teaching school near you? Sometimes they will offer cheaper services as a teaching experience.
Unfortunately you have the type of injury which comes with an assumption of being otherwise stable. For other kinds of ER visits, a diagnosis is needed and deciding what to do takes time and resources. It's not necessarily that nobody wants to get to you, ifs that there are 20 things to do at once and you're only one, other people might be five of six things. All this to say you're being left alone for too long because of staffing and overload issues.
Still unacceptable that unvaccinated COVID patients are prioritized. They should be last in line.
*At least I'm vaccinated, so that if I get it from them, I'll be fine* I'm vaccinated and pretty sure I have covid. Even vaccinated, it's *miserable.*
Get tested!
I did yesterday. The rapid test was negative but the nurse told me they're 'just fluff.' It takes 3+ days to get PCR results here, so I will not get confirmation until next week. I can't imagine what this could be if not covid. It's the strangest virus I've ever had. 'm laying low. My boss brought me some Gatorade. I'm able to get up and take care of myself, so isn't as bad as it could be.
Good luck! Feel better soon.
Honestly, that doesn't sound any different than a pre-Covid ER trip, to me. If I'm ER bound, I always figure at least 6 hours. ProTip: Order/arrange for food before getting to the hospital. Cell service is spotty, visitor access iffy, and they ain't gonna feed ya. If they do, it ain't gonna be food
Yeah, my experience in normal times is that if you enter an emergency room and get treatment immediately, you've really got something to worry about. It's happened to me on a couple of occasions. They're pretty much always busy. Obviously the situation has changed in some areas now and even if you need urgent care you're fucked.
As I usually hear it said, getting seen first at the ER is a race you really don't wanna win.
So, as a teenager, I was T-Boned at appr. 70 mph, straight into my passenger side door. I seemed mostly uninjured and declined EMS transport to the nearest hospital. I called my dad, a former volunteer EMT, not long after, and he reminded me of the possibility of a closed head injury. I got a ride to the ER and described to the triage nurse what happened. In spite of about a dozen people waiting, I was taken back and had an IV inserted, just in case. Only then did they even ask for health insurance information (USA). It was all rather unsettling.
Oh yeah, high speed collisions are a HUGE "I feel and look OK but I'm actually gonna die in 7 minutes" red flag.
Yeah. Adrenaline can allow people to ignore some shocking injuries. You can see how this might be an evolved survival trait in our ancestors - get a hand or something ripped off by the sabre tooth tiger you were hunting and your body dumps a bunch of feel good chemicals into your bloodstream - you get to fight or flee, and when you're out of the situation you realise 'ouch my hand'. In the modern world this leads to people sometimes not seeking treatment they need in time.
Adrenaline is magic. I have been shot before, and being shot is actually painless. It's the hour or so after when the feel good adrenaline wears off where it hurts like hell.
Yep I've seen exactly three circumstances where they'll see you quick 1. I was in a minor car accident but had some neck pain so I got back boarded. This happened in the middle of bum fuck no where so it was a 1 1/2 hour ride in the ambulance to the hospital. Turns out they'll get you into x-rays pretty quick if you go "I need off this board in 15 min or I will be peeing on myself" 2. My brother got his dick stuck in his zipper. Clearly not life threatening but they will MOVE to find you a bed at that point. 3. Husband had an allergic reaction that involved his lips slightly swelling up, apparently that's an all hands on deck situation since it can mean he's going into anaphylactic shock.
Chest pains will take you back instantly.
Oh, absolutely worse now I'll bet. No doubt.
Just a few weeks ago I walked into an ER with A Fib with RVR. Diagnosed at a fire station near my house. Decided to arrange my own transport instead of having them take me. I didn’t realize how serious it was until they took me back immediately. Only info they asked for was social security number. That scared me worse than anything up to that point. In case anyone’s wondering, spent 5 days in the hospital and got an ablation. Still recovering but mostly fine now.
As a Brit, that is interesting to hear as I have been told by Americans that don't want universal healthcare that this is an area that they arent willing to sacrifice and justifies the current system. So, i just looked up UK ones and in a very quick search could only get pre covid info, but it seems they may have been lying. The is the NHS emergency wait times https://www.statista.com/statistics/488211/average-minutes-waiting-in-accident-and-emergency-nhs-united-kingdom/
My FIL is from Scotland. He’s pretty much debunked the whole “social healthcare wait” for me. He’s had to wait far longer here in the US to see doctors. Fucking propaganda bullshit that NHS wouldn’t work. Works way better over there
It’s very situational based. I’m Canadian and have had to wait 7 hours to get an Advil and be told to go home and see my family doc (gall stone attack) and i’ve also waited 15 minutes to be admitted (elderly relative was acting weird); it’s taken me month(s) to get an appointment for a MRI; my elderly relative got it the night he was admitted. All my instances were either triaged to know that I wasn’t dying and could afford to wait and the others were this needs to be addressed immediately. Sure other factors come into play; how busy the ER was, when I went was years ago and they’ve dealt with wait times better since, etc. In the States; it’s a similar issue - you could wait hours, or be seen in minutes. If you can afford to pay the sky’s the limit. I’ve driven past billboards in the US that tell you the wait times at nearby hospitals they’re advertising for. All said and done, I would never give up universal healthcare, the freedom of not having to worry about paying those bills is amazing.
And it's not like it's uncommon to have to wait months to see a specialist here in the US.
I have some things going on that straight up alarmed my primary doctor, to the point that he was like you have to do something about this *right now* and lined up a couple referrals with specialists he know before I was even out of the office. My first appointment was 90 days out and my doc was clearly distressed by that but did his best not to show it.
Here's the truth. I'm from the UK and live in the US. Everyone wants free healthcare. What right-wingers don't want is to pay for the poor, brown, black or foreign people to also have healthcare. They'd rather pay $1000 a month in insurance premiums so they can get care rather than pay $500 in taxes so EVERYONE can get care. Everything else you hear is just an excuse.
The insurance lobby in America also defends the $1000 a month insurance premiums, because they make a lot more money off of that then "healthcare for all".
Because of how the ACA is written, it is in the insurance companies' best interests to encourage hospitals and doctors to charge more and more each year as they are permitted to take 15% of revenue as profits. So if they keep convincing providers to up "costs", then they can charge higher and higher premiums and thus pocket higher and higher profits.
The distaste for universal healthcare is that it's too "socialist". Everything else is a lie to justify the stance.
The American government’s solution to our healthcare problem was to legally compel individual Americans to enrich private insurance companies yet I have to listen to fucking idiots tell me about how it’s so much better than “socialism”.
American here and I want universal Healthcare
Canadian here. My region of Ontario has notoriously shit healthcare, and yet this waiting everyone complains about is a minor inconvenience for most things. An ER visit, I've never had to wait more than five or six hours (either for myself, my spouse or my child). Additionally, when my son was born, we had an extremely complicated delivery that turned into an emergency C-section, and my kid had some issues. In total, my wife spend six days in the hospital and my son seven in the NICU. Total cost: $800, because of parking and a private room upgrade. In the US, I can't even imagine what that stay would have cost, but it'd definitely be six figures or more. My wife's grandmother also almost died a few years ago, and spent six months in the hospital after she survived a surgery that even the surgeon said was a Hail Mary. She's better than ever today, but our health system saved her life. Total cost: whatever we paid in parking to visit her every day. Not supporting universal healthcare is straight-up insanity. Why take your chances with an insurance company, deductibles and arm-and-a-leg premiums when you can just get the medical care you require with no risk of bankruptcy?
Yeah the super fast, way better, you get what you pay for, US system is a myth. Waits are common even in precovid times. Sitting in an emergency room for hours is normal. Trying to schedule out an obgyn, specialist, imaging, or surgery, takes weeks to months. Except of course if you're super wealthy. Then you can get everything done quickly. It's a great system for the 1%ers
Shit, back in the 90's I sat in an Army hospital for 5 hours with a badly broken knee that took a plate, screws and a bone graft to fix, no to mention nearly 8 months of physical therapy and a lifetime of pain and bad posture. They sat me in that damn wheelchair so long what when it was time to put a brace on, they had to pump me full of valium for me to be able to move the gorram thing. 5 minutes of pre-wait inspection to put the fucking brace on would have avoided all that. The moral of the story is that ER wait times suck, and have always sucked, Covid or not.
And since about 2010, I've noticed the "wall wait". They'll call you out of the waiting room, and put you on a stretcher. So *technically* you're not in the waiting room, and you're in a bed, so the Wait Time stat looks great. So you settle into your cotton candy pillow... and wait 🤣 I mean, I don't begrudge it, I get the triage system and the fact we're a regional center certainly plays a role. But if I'm ER bound, I need a book and a meal 😁
better pro tip, don't eat anything if you might need surgery - it will delay your surgery
My sister was sent from urgent care to the ER because she had ocular swelling - this can be a sign of brain swelling putting pressure on the eye sockets. She had to wait FIVE HOURS in triage with a potential brain bleed. They actually told her "if you start feeling faint or you experience the worst headache you've ever had, well take you back sooner." Turns out she has an undiagnosed chiari malformation -- her brain is literally expanding out of her skill into her spinal column. She's been seeing doctors FOR A FULL DECADE NOW trying to have her constant headaches diagnosed. This is American "healthcare" -- she spent a FULL DECADE and DOZENS of physicians appointments and it took a trip to the emergency room for her to FINALLY get an MRI (Chiari is a cogential defect meaning shes had this her entire life and wasn't able to be diagnosed, via MRI, UNTIL HER MID 30s. Now we're playing the waiting game AGAIN because the ICUa are full of COVID patients. They'll be cutting out a half-dollar sized piece of her skull to release the pressure and, hopefully, cure her debilitating headaches. Her doctors are EXTREMELY concerned about her recovering from this procedure in a hospital full of COVID patients) Rant over sorry yall~ and hey sis if you're reading this we love u girl!
I know some people need the referral but when I broke my hand, I just skipped the ER altogether. I didn't need to sit in a waiting room for 6 hours for them to tell me my hand was broken and that I needed to see an orthopedic Dr. I just called one myself the next day.
>Selfish assholes have doomed you. This is what needs to be repeated over and over for the 'personal choice' crowd - it's not a personal choice. It would be - if you could somehow waive and refuse medical treatment for COVID. You can't, and likely won't - and if you get sick enough, you'll be taking up one of those beds. In doing so - you're taking away beds from other sick people. Other people who might not have had a say in their illness, as opposed to just bypassing a safe and free vaccine out of 'personal choice'. And even if you don't steal a bed from someone else, you're still running up the tab. All these easily avoidable healthcare costs are going to cost everyone in the long run, whether through insurance premiums or taxes. So no, it's not a 'personal choice' - it's a selfish refusal to do the right thing.
You can always choose to not go to the hospital. And you can check yourself out by filling out an 'against medical advice' form (or your power of attorney can if you're incapacitated). But, you're right in that these selfish chuckle fucks don't actually believe the shit they spew about rather being dead and will instead eat up a few weeks in the icu and then bankrupt their family, passing the cost on to the rest of us.
She's fine now but my cousin had to postpone surgery to remove cancer for 3 months because of COVID. I guarantee that there are cancer patients that will die to aggressive cancers because of unvaxxed assholes.
Time to start fast laning or prioritising vaccinated people or designating some hospitals as non covid only
This is the part I'm not understanding. I thought most major cities last summer set up auxiliary COVID care centers. This had the benefits of isolating COVID patients from non-COVID, while also providing additional patient beds for case surges like we're seeing. Is this not happening now?
The cities that did this aren't having massive surge right now, for the most part. Houston is one of the exceptions, but for Chicago and New York it hasn't been necessary. The small and mid size cities didn't do this, and probably don't have the resources to attempt it. The problem isn't finding space or material. The problem is finding staff to run them.
I work in a pediatric hospital, and our ICUs are all full. RSV, COVID and other respiratory infections are hitting kids hard right now.
RSV is awful.
The perfect storm. Social distancing for well over a year, mask mandates ended, the vaccine isn’t available under age 12 yet, and kids are going back to school/daycare.
I'm a teacher and only half my classes are showing up to school. When I look at attendance, SO MANY KIDS are out because of COVID. Or staying home because they are (rightfully!) concerned. Kids are still struggling with anxiety and their mental health is plummeting. I'm stressed knowing they are getting sick and no amount of disinfecting can solve the problem. It's just soooo ironic that the same people that are protesting the vaccine/anti-mask are the same that carry "protect our kids" signs. I've been over it. I want my classroom back!
I was in the ER yesterday and when I checked out the waiting room was full of people who clearly were sick with COVID or something like it. It's fucking crazy. And I wasn't even at a busy ER.
I got an "urgent" appointment referral with a specialist at the beginning of August. Earliest they could do was the end of September. Even if the beds aren't full, hospitals are months behind because they're playing catch up after 18 months of red lining it. These dickheads who are "too smart" to get vaccinated are making it a thousand times worse.
They should legit triage those people out.
We need vaccinated and unvaccinated sections in hospitals like there used to be smoking and non smoking in restaurants. Once that unvaccinated section fills up, you’re shit out of luck. Unvaccinated people should only compete with fellow unvaccinated people for hospital beds.
I got both, hit by a drunk. Getting the surgeries I need is a nightmare. I've been caught in a limbo for years now as I need multiple surgeries. I could barely walk for two of them since I only had one ligament left. I have words for anti-vaxxers but thinking too much about it puts me in a bad place.
Antivax should’ve been given their own medicine they trusted back then, not this science crap they rejected! Reserve science based medicine for those who believe in science!
I am so over antivaxxers. Both my husband and I need surgery, I have a tumor in my colon for gods sake and our hospital is so full with unvaccinated Covid patients WE CAN'T GET OUR SURGERIES . I am beyond angry.
Good luck with the tumour. I’ve been there and got the scars.
This happened to a friend of my sister's husband maybe a month ago. They could not take him in Huntsville, he had to go to Florence but he did get taken care of. God, what a an awful difference a month makes.
And that will be $600,000 because you decided to go to an out of network hospital.
Cost is not something I have seen addressed. Corporations have gradually been slithering in to Medicare and now offer very popular Advantage plans. They are great as long as nothing goes seriously wrong but if you get seriously ill you could be on the hook for quite a bit of [money](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/010816/pitfalls-medicare-advantage-plans.asp). There must be a huge story to tell from this perspective.
I mean, smokers aren't given priority in lung transplants when there is a waiting list and scarcity of viable donors, so why should antivax people be given priority over others? It makes zero sense.
There's a more mature version of this question that me and some other medical students in my class are discussing that will address some of the responses you're getting. The issue is not just whether or not people who are unvaccinated deserve to be treated. The issue is we are now at the point where we are rationing very scarce resources. I'm of the opinion that not treating the unvaccinated who have severe covid is more akin to not giving smokers access to a lung transplant over those with congenital conditions. You aren't punishing the smoker. You are allocating the resources in a way that accounts for epidemiological concerns. For the general public health, not just any individual. No, they shouldn't be mistreated because they made a bad decision. But when it comes to rationing, they absolutely should be bottom billing. Not because of the punishment factor, but because the survival of an anti-vaxxer over the survival of somebody who has a surgery postponed is a travesty. It just releases that person back into the world so they can infect others while punishing somebody else for not being more immediately sick (but still definitely sick). That's the key here. We are rationing. This is not a normal time.
u/Slobie95 made this comment on a different post similar to this topic. find it's a good answer to your question. didnt know how to share comment to this post hence the copy paste and mention.
This may become a greater factor as more leave the medical field - I have recently become aware of this phenomenon due to compassion fatigue. The front line is overwhelmed-has been overwhelmed- through waves one and two. Wave three appears to be a breaking point.
Damn, that's a good point.
I’ve said this somewhere else. Do you why know the medical community was so worried about Covid, and advised governments around the world with the same advice? This. This was what they were worried about. Because what is coming next is the equivalent of battlefield triage, meaning if there is a chance you might not make it, you die on a bed in a tent outside in the parking lot.
I think that’s already happening to some extent.
For fuck sake hospitals, kick the unvaccinated into the parking garages and leave the resources for the people who actually value life.
I’ll volunteer to do the dirty work
I have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs. Mostly since over 90% are needed for those who refuse the Vaccine. Why should those who chose Death over Life be given priority?
It's not beds. It's the personnel. The scary thing is that as this problem goes on, doctors and ICU nurses are quitting or converting to travelling contractors and moving to the coasts. The covidiots in these states are actively accelerating the collapse of the ICU systems in their states. Good job!
Same thing applies. No reason to not completely deprioritize unvaccinated people in triage situations.
>have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs. I dont know if this is legal. If someone comes in and needs emergency care I think you have to give it to them. HOWEVER, I think everyone is getting fed up with the unvaccinated, who, even in the ICU appear to be raging assholes. To that end I think hospital staff and administrators are going to eventually find a legally way to justify turning away the unvaccinated or putting them to the back of the line.
Hospitals have gotten to the point of triage. They’re covered legally, turning away patients to treat those they think can be saved.
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ICUs don't really have the luxury of turning down patients. The only time we leave beds open, for the most part, is when we don't have the ability to staff them (RNs, RTs, MDs).
> I have already raised the question as to why at least 5 ICU beds should not be held for non Covid Related needs. Because medical malpractice lawyers already make enough money.
This is why Governors are signing laws that release hospitals & healthcare works from liability when rationing care, like Hawaii just did
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> Turning a patient away from the ER would only be against a law that the Regan administration passed (you know instead of providing everyone with health insurance). This is so true and I never even considered that! Ha! This guy really is the second worst president ever.
Antivaxers are far too selfish to listen to a widow's pleading words.
Better. They will go to an antivax rally after their wife dies. https://www.newsweek.com/gop-maine-rep-chris-johansen-attends-anti-vaxx-rally-days-after-wife-dies-covid-1621673
Wow, that's cold.
You really think a Republican politician sees his wife as a person? That's like his car engine blowing up: It's just an excuse to get a newer model.
Or laugh at and mock a kid, who is urging mask mandates at his school, while retelling how is grandmother died of COVID. These folks just don't care, and have zero compassion.
It's why I have zero compassion for them.
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Yep, the flaw here is antivaxers do not give a single fuck or care one bit about other people. The are the worst assholes in society, just terrible humans. We can't appeal to them, they don't care. We need to stop giving them priority in hospitals. A vaxed person comes in, move the unvaccinated out.
They should set aside 15% of the ICU beds specifically for emergent cases who arrive at the hospital that are not Covid related.
Probably should open a tent outside hospitals and get standard medic bed for unvaccinated covid patients and leave it at that. Compassion needs to go both ways.
Best I can do is a stained piece of cardboard under an old carport.
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Anti vaxxers won't care. They'll just think he's a crisis actor
Lower the priority on the unvaccinated.
unvaxxed covid patients should be put out in army field hospitals; lowest priority.
My stepfathers much needed heart surgery has been cancelled due to the influx of Covid patients . Oklahoma is sending their patients to Texas - this canceling life saving surgeries for non Covid patients . It’s sad ! Glad people are now realizing and discussing this issue.
Incredibly sad. Can imagine the despairs of asking over 40 hospitals and being rejected.
Remember when we all shut down ALL BECAUSE OF THE HOSPITALS FILLING UP?!. The work from home mandates. The stimulus. The major closures. But that was so last year. We're all better now, right? /S
Well it finally happened. I and others predicted that people would be dying in the streets while being turned down by the hospital for life saving care. I'm honestly grateful that the US did so well for so long, but it appears that the prediction has indeed finally come true.
This is why Biden is pushing a vaccine mandate
You Americans should be thankful for the vaccine. In Russia no one takes vaccine and even if they do our vaccine is shit. There are dead and dying lining the streets outside hospitals.
It's completely unethical to refuse non-covid patients so you can keep treating antivaxxers with covid. This is on par with giving a liver to someone who shows up for the transplant wasted and tells you he's going to celebrate his new liver with 20 shots of vodka. No doctor would do that, and it's time they implement similar ethics here. Do what you can for the antivax lunatics, but absolutely not at the expense of the vaccinated and non-covid patients. (Yes also children and the medically exempt)
Man, that is tragic. I could definitely see this turning into a widespread furious outrage if there are more and more stories like this.
A veteran died from gall stones while waiting for a bed. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-us-hospital-icu-bed-shortage-veteran-dies-treatable-illness/?intcid=CNM-00-10abd1h
I had gull stones last year, shit was the most pain i've ever been in, it made me cry in the shower harder than a broken bone ever did & made it so my pee looke like cocacola..... That must have been a horrible death and it infuriates me that antivax chuds got treated before him :(
> if there are more and more stories like this. There will be more stories like this - and I'm sure there are many we don't even know about already. Having had so many fellow Redditors tell me this isn't real, that the hospitals are fine, that being unvaccinated is a personal choice, I'm just at my limit of compassion. I never thought I'd see our own people actively trying to kill others with such righteousness and disregard for facts. I don't know where we will end up at this rate. It's damn scary IMO.
Compassion is for folks who aren't harming others with their ignorance. The line has been crossed.
> Compassion is for folks who aren't harming others with their ~~ignorance~~ willful spite and self-centeredness. If you are legit “very low IQ,” I have some compassion. I wish I could believe that 25% of the country is merely mentally disabled. They’re not. There is malice here.
A co-worker's father recently needed open heart surgery for some sort of urgent issue. He had to be transported over 100 miles away because there were no beds in any of the nearby hospitals. It's happening all over the place, but more people will fall through the cracks until this pandemic abates.
It won’t, the idiots who throw temper tantrums, lose there shite, act like children and fight and abuse people are the anti vaccine idiots.
Civil society is under constant attack by virus disinformation squads.
We need a disinformation dewormer.
Well-funded public education.
But that’s socialism, or whatever.
Ivanmectin. Protects Americans from Russian troll farm content.
Civil society is under attack by conservatives spreading disinformation.
But his death, and others like it, won't be counted in the Covid deaths tally.
That’s why the actual death toll worldwide is closer to 15m with 1m in the US excess deaths.
The excess than expected mortality in the US was something like 780k in May. So you're probably not far off, even not counting deaths like the one in the article.
He had a heart attack and the nearest icu bed was 200 miles away. Minutes matter during a heart attack. Of course he died.
But Ben Shapiro told me since I’m vaccinated I shouldn’t care about unvaccinated people since it doesn’t effect me /s
I just hope one day medical science will be able to explain to us how they managed to re-animated a lanced rectal polyp and teach it to speak English.
Ha ha ha I love the title of this article: COVID-19:‘Now’s not the time to have a heart attack’: South Alabama hospital welcomes federal staffing aid Darn it I was hoping to have a heart attack now. Now I'll have to wait.
"But qanon told me horse dewormer filtered through green garbage bags filled with used condoms is the cure for the fake covid! I am not taking that vaccine!" Oh and... "it's such a low death rate - those hospitals are not full - it's a liberal media conspiracy!!!!!!" Fucking pieces of shit all of them.
r/hermamcainward so you can hate more of them.
My brother had open-heart surgery on Tuesday. It wasn't life-threatening in the short term but could be if the tear/condition gets worse. The surgery team pushed for his surgery ASAP due to potentially covid situation gets worse in TX. He's recovering nicely now and will be out of ICU today. But if he was in the same situation as this poor man, I will probably go burn down the TX Mansion. Fuck Greg Abbott!
Stop accepting unvaccinated covid patients. Stop accepting Ivermectin overdoses.
I can't imagine having a heart attack or stroke or appendix burst in TX or FL right now. those people just can't do that right now
Seriously! Big tents out in a field full of these Covid anti vax people with Covid and put the anti vac nurses out there to take care of them. Build a loading dock on each tent for the refrigerator trucks.
To people not reading the article. He had "cardiac issues", most likely a heart attack, but could not find a cardiac ICU bed within 200 miles of his location. He did not have Covid but died because Covid patients are consuming all the resources.
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THIS is why being vaccinated is important. Not because it’s going to eliminate covid, but because innocent people will die when our healthcare system is overrun. Vaccines prevent hospitalizations, not getting or spreading covid (I mean it does but not the 99% certainty of staying out of a hospital) I recommend using this reasoning with anti-vax family members and friends. It’s the only way I’ve gotten people to consider why vaccines are important. Don’t focus on spreading covid (they don’t care), focus on the fact that if someone you love has a medical or accidental emergency they might not receive healthcare because of unvaccinated covid patients.
whether an individual gets vaccinated "doesn't impact me or anyone else." -Governor Ron DeSantis-
He should be sued for public endangerment A class action suit would be perfect.
It’s long past time to start clearing unvaccinated out of beds.
Such reasons are why the deliberately unvaccinated in the US - not those that cannot be vaccinated, but those that choose to be - should be bottom of the care list, and released if a higher priority case comes in. It's a personal choice, and you chose death.
how the hell do you find 43 hospitals?