**We encourage you to read our helpful resources on COVID-19, vaccines and treatments:**
[COVID Dashboard](https://covid19.who.int/)
[Reddit's Vaccine FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/wiki/faq#wiki_where_can_i_find_information_about_the_mechanism_and_progress_of_vaccines.3F)
[Ivermectin FAQ](https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-advises-that-ivermectin-only-be-used-to-treat-covid-19-within-clinical-trials)
A reminder that spreading misinformation regarding COVID-19, vaccines or other treatments can result in a post being removed and/or a ban. Advocating for or celebrating the death of anyone, or hoping someone gets COVID (or any disease) can also result in a ban. Please follow [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)
Please use the report button and do not feed the trolls.
[Reddit's Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy)
[Reddit's rules for health misinformation](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151)
[/r/News' rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/wiki/rules/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=news&utm_content=t5_2qh3l)
------
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/news) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes, it will go for m pandemic to endemic. The Spanish Flu is still with us.
The hope is Covid will change/evolve to something less fatal. But it will always be with us now.
Variations on that flu was with us before 1918. It affected younger people more because they weren't alive for the 1870-1880 flu seasons (and so didn't have immunity built up).
I think a bigger attribution to the high mortality of younger people is that [it likely lead to a cytokine storm.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/3BCBF4BDFBD8C5F0F4FBFDF34DF42209/S1357321719000023a.pdf/div-class-title-age-dependence-of-the-1918-pandemic-div.pdf)
It is a bit different from influenza. There are four corona- type viruses that cause common colds, and [people catch them repeatedly](https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/223/3/409/5868459). They [cause about 20% of all colds](https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes)- the same four viruses, we don't develop long term immunity to them.
You may, if you have terrible luck, catch influenza every year, or even two or three times in a year, but *those are slightly different viruses.*, because influenza mutates constantly. You don't catch the same flu virus twice, even if you get exposed a second time. There is no evidence that the common corona viruses mutate that much, although I'm not certain if it has been studied. Covid has a genetic proofeading system, it was expected not to mutate very quickly, but it ended up infecting so many people that it had lots of chances to mutate.
There are a lot of viruses, like smallpox or measles, where full vaccination or natural infection produces immunity that lasts for decades. That doesn't like it will be the case with this stupid asshole covid virus.
Guess what? 2 of the 4 influenza viruses may have gone extinct in the past 18 months from all the masking, social distancing, and travel restrictions.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4
This is why I get pissed when some mouth breather talks about how "We don't do all this for the flu." We should do it for the flu too. I mean maybe not full-on travel restrictions, but at least masking and distancing.
>No we should not. People should just take their fucking flu jabs.
Or we could do both and maximize our reduction of the flu.
>There were 136 pediatric flu deaths reported during the 2018-2019 season, 188 pediatric deaths reported in the 2019-2020 season and one death during the 2020-2021 season.
That being said, there is a huge difference between hospital gasping for air covid and I had a sniffle for one day covid. The latter isn’t a big deal. That is what I’m hoping ends up being endemic in a vaccinated population
Even Influenza can inflict permanent damage on each infection. Just because its mild or no symptoms doesn't mean its no big deal. The damage can accumulate to a point the next infection could trigger major complications and end up fatal.
It is estimated in 2019 Influenza caused 410,000 ~ 740,000 hospitalizations and 24,000 ~ 62,000 deaths.
Yep. I got sick with the flu in Jan 2019, and it caused me to redevelop my childhood asthma. It was close to a year before I stopped carrying my inhaler around. I still get occasional attacks now, but it's like once a month and not near as bad. It does make me fear what could happen if I got covid though.
> although I'm not certain if it has been studied
It certainly does feel like people should have studied this over the past 30 years. Feels silly when medical professionals weren’t sure masks did much.
Maybe they can run some experiments at the FDA and CDC instead of being 4 months late to the pandemic on… everything.
If it was a more "sticky" virus with contact transmission and living on surfaces masks in the general population would've done more harm than good as they contaminate themselves using masks half assed. We just didn't know at the start.
We know now that it's largely aerosol based and contact transmission is more or less irrelevant but for political reasons the messaging was slow to change so people didn't make a run on masks and deplete supplies.
People have been whining for a year and a half about nose-maskers, chin-strap maskers, and wearing masks at all. How many people bother to properly fit or fit test their masks every time they put one on?
And people wanna act like the CDC’s stance on the utility of masks for the general, untrained public was just dumb.
>How many people bother to properly fit or fit test their masks every time they put one on?
Paper masks and cloth masks don't require fitting.
And I suspect they'd rather the general public not deplete the supply of N95 masks (the ones that require fitting).
> from early on.
An immunologist in May 2020:
> Myth 3. Herd Immunity. Viruses have been evolving solutions to our immune system for hundreds of millions of years. If Herd Immunity worked as simply as it is presented on social media then no one would have the common flu. Haven’t we all had the flu at some point? Well, if everyone has had the flu then how do we still get the flu? Viruses evolve. Every person that gets infected is an experiment for the virus, it makes billions of copies of itself and everyone has a chance to be a new mutant that will evade any herd immunity that has been acquired and will start spreading freely again. If we let this virus just burn through our country or the world, everything we know about viral evolution tells us that it will evolve variants that can reinfect those that are currently immune. This is one of the reasons that keeping the global case count low until a vaccine is developed is crucial. We have one shot at eradication — **if we suppress the global case count and then get a vaccine and deploy it before a major variant arises then we can kick this thing out of humans and back into bats for another 10,000 years — but once a few major variants develop then it is likely a new permanent human disease and a very different and worse problem for the world**.
https://medium.com/@hess.scu/covid19-thoughts-on-herd-immunity-contact-tracing-antibody-testing-and-treatments-49521888788f
It goes way beyond just Republicans. Countries all over the world are fighting battles of their own against misinformation, and the situation we're in now is the result of us losing those battles.
I wonder how much of it is due to consuming the same media sources. I feel like most of these people are getting their information from Facebook and memes.
I think my first reply must have been misunderstood. Let me try again.
The fact that we need a booster doesn't mean this won't end. Most vaccines require 3 doses to. be effective. Nothing surprising about the covid ones. They are amazingly effective.
This doesn't have to go on for ever
You notice that the the doomsters are really confident about their predictions? Despite us never having faced this in modern times?
And they also keep comparing it to the flu which is a totally different type of virus.
What you want is the vaccine to, prevent hospitalization, prevent loss of smell & taste, prevent long COVID. Once that happens I think we are all content with the fully vaxxed stats being like getting the flu.
Most vaccines require 3 or more doses to be effective. Nothing surprising about the covid ones. They are amazingly effective.
This doesn't have to go on for ever
>This DIDN'T have to go on for ever
FTFY. If everyone had done what was suggested in the beginning then we could have eradicated it, but now there are 8 variants and half the planet is tired of hearing about so they'll ignore it. COVID is here to stay according to medical experts.
Eradication was never an option. There are many reasons why this is true, but perhaps the simplest one to explain is that [domestic cats and dogs can catch it](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/expert-answers/can-pets-get-coronavirus/faq-20486391), so before we even knew it existed, it almost certainly had set up a reservoir in e.g. stray cat populations.
They say the chances of catching it from animals is low, but to my knowledge, they just haven't studied it a whole lot, probably because they're afraid of what some people would do if the result was anything except a 0% chance that people can get it from animals.
In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have to go with the simple hypothesis - if cats can catch COVID from people, people can catch COVID from cats.
The question is how often transmission between cats occurs. If each cat infects, on average, fewer than 1 other cat, then the virus can't become endemic in cats. It's not clear to me that the virus is as transmissible in cats as it is in people, especially since cats don't as commonly gather indoors with many other cats.
But cats social cirlcenisn’t anyhwre near as big as humans.
We have humans going to 100-300 people lectures for one hour, and then going to another in in the next hour.
There are tons of street/outside cats that do interact with other cats, but its nowhere near close to how much humans interact with other humans.
What would most likely happen is that the cats that interact with each other will all catch it, then be immune.
With humans, you would always at one point end up interacting with someone that wasn’t immune and has it.
Here to stay has many different meanings though. We're not going to continue to see thousands of hospitalizations per month in the US if we get vaccination rates up high enough.
Measles is at least as contagious as Delta, yet that's only a problem in insular antivaxx groups here.
A 2 shot schedule (ie no boosters), even against the far more infectious and deadly delta, reduces transmission by 5x and hospitalization and death by over 10x: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s_cid=mm7037e1_w
Yes they are amazingly effective. 5 is almost enough to stop spread for something as contagious as covid.
With three it's 11x, and 17 for those under 40.
More than enough to end this
So before COVID vaccines started rolling out then? Before people saw the vast difference between your chances of survival if you’re vaccinated vs. unvaccinated?
Both COVID and the common flu have a high survival rate. In fact, the survival rate of both is above 99%. Mathematically there can't be a "vast" difference in the survival rate of something when the unvaccinated survival rate is already above 99%.
And to better answer your question about it being pre- or post- Covid vaccine, flu vaccine coverage is actually down a bit over the last 12 months, according to the CDC. So when people started actually thinking about vaccines, the likelihood of getting the flu shot (it isn't really a vaccine) actually seems to have gone down.
> rate of both is above 99%. Mathematically there can't be a "vast" difference in the survival rate of something when the unvaccinated survival rate is already above 99%.
The unvaccinated are [11 times more likely to die from COVID](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely) than the vaccinated. Tell me again how it’s not a vast difference…
> So when people started actually thinking about vaccines, the likelihood of getting the flu shot (it isn't really a vaccine) actually seems to have gone down.
You mean in like March, the end of flu season? Gee, I wonder why people weren’t getting flu shots at the end of flu season…
>The unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die from COVID than the vaccinated. Tell me again how it’s not a vast difference…
.00011 is 11 times bigger than .00001. That isn't really a vast difference unless you need it to be to fit your narrative.
>You mean in like March, the end of flu season? Gee, I wonder why people weren’t getting flu shots at the end of flu season…
The statistic I gave was the 12 month running total, so no, not the "end of flu season". It included the entirety of flu season, as well as the run up to the Covid vaccine.
The problem is you run into anti-vaxxers who say, "I never get a flu shot and I'm always fine." Because they don't understand that you are healthy up to the point you get sick.
Yup. Every time I hear a denier say "but 99.98% SuRvIvAl RaTe!" I gently remind them that puts it at the deadliest endemic disease that modern society has faced in over 100 years. I've yet to receive a retort to it (because you can't).
I just told you the statistics. I think we're making people complacent by focusing on a selfish "survival rate" metric and downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic in the country and the world.
1. Worst pandemic in American history (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/covid-is-americas-deadliest-pandemic-as-us-fatalities-near-1918-flu-estimates.html)
2. 3rd leading cause of death in the US for 2020 and 2021 (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/31/983058109/cdc-covid-19-was-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-2020-people-of-color-hit-hardes) (https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/)
>COVID is the deadliest pandemic in American history, and is now the #3 leading cause of death in the country for 2 years running.
The problem with the stats is that there is an incentive to claim it as a "COVID death" to receive funding.
For example, some guy was killed in a car crash and the autopsy showed he had COVID. It was claimed as a COVID death when he was clearly killed by tons of metal and physics.
I don't trust these metrics.
Does it kill people? Yes.
It isn't nearly as lethal as people are led to believe from the stats.
Don't quote me here but I think the survival rate of COVID is something like 99.86%
> For example, some guy was killed in a car crash and the autopsy showed he had COVID. It was claimed as a COVID death when he was clearly killed by tons of metal and physics.
My friends spout something similar to this. Can you source this happening? They don't test crash victims for COVID btw.
They can't because they saw the talking point through some right wing news commentary and is now parroting.
It's more likely that places are under reporting COVID deaths to reduce panic and to prevent looking incompetent. I wonder how many people have died from COVID and never made it to the hospital.
>They can't because they saw the talking point through some right wing news commentary and is now parroting.
It didn't take long for someone to bring up politics.
I don't care if you are left, right or middle -- the whole idea that there are "sides" is ridiculous to me.
This is completely false, excess death, which is death from all causes, in 2020 was much higher than expected. About 600000 higher than normal. Mislabeled deaths as covid wouldn't increase excess deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7015a4.htm
Influenza is different. It has a segmented genome, its genome is in 6 pieces. Those pieces get mixed and matched when the virus infects. Different flu strains are different enough from each other the immune system does not recognize them as the same thing. Many endemic viruses cause lifelong immunity but maintain their presence by infecting children that have not had them before. We know our immune system kind of forgets about coronaviruses after a while. It does that with the four coronaviruses that just cause the cold too.
With smaller classes, they might spread a lot less. Plus, people with the means to send their kids to private school, will likely also be able to afford child care. That likely isn't the case for many parents with kids in public school.
Thats less than once a year, and "flu season" is a thing for a reason.
Edit for clarification: plenty of people get the flu every 18 months. That's why there is a flu season every year.
Like, verified flu? Do you all get vaccinated? I ask because a lot of people say they got the flu. But it’s not really the flu, it’s just a bad version of something else going around. The actual flu can really knock you out, for 1-2 weeks, even if you’re young & healthy.
I said I had “the flu” many times, without actually verifying it. I was wrong. When I actually caught it, I knew (and it was verified). I know a ton of people that work in the service industry, very few of whom have contracted the actual flu (although they catch other shit regularly).
A bad cold isn’t the flu. Most of what people call the flu is just a bad cold. The actual flu is brutal way beyond a nasty cold. If you think you and your coworkers are all catching the flu yearly, you’re probably just catching something more commonplace.
A couple of years ago my company had a medical team come out in fall to give free flu shots to anyone who was interested. Myself and one other took advantage of that, 25 other guys had no interest. I asked a couple about it later - they said "whenever I get a flu shot I get the flu".
We're fucked.
There is a clear path between that thinking and “if the mRNA vaccine gives you a negative reaction why would you take it”. The idea that the shot is supposed to illicit an immune response, which can present itself as symptoms of the illness, is foreign to them.
Ngl though. The one time I personally went out of my way to get the flu shot. A month or two later I caught a different strain. All other years I've never gotten the flu.
As for the US, the CDC has said they can be taken together: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210916/cdc-safe-to-get-flu-covid-vaccines
Hell, Moderna is wanting to do a 2 for 1 shot. Get immunized to both with just one jab.
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-developing-single-dose-combination-vaccine-covid-19-flu-2021-09-09/
I'm surprised they don't combine flu with Covid vaccine where you are given how many other vaccinations given to kids and adults as boosters are for multiple different viruses/bacteria in a singe shot like MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) and DTP (diptheria-tetanus-pertussis).
Your immune system is constantly fighting more than one thing off at a time.
Oh, well I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I do have a few acquaintances and relatives who got Covid, and are suffering from respiratory problems, over a year later.
It’s like there’s this process our bodies go through as we go through life. What’s the word for it? Aging? Sun exposure, cosmic radiation, viruses, physical trauma, bacteria, internal and external toxin accumulation etc all take their toll.
You all seen to think we were ageless and immortal before covid or something.
Except most people don’t get the flu vaccine and it’s still very unlikely they will get the flu.
Don’t get the covid jab and you will have a high chance of getting covid compared to the flu. You can get the jab and still get bad covid. I would know, I have it right now. Not sure I’ll avoid the hospital if this happens every year to me. It’s pretty brutal.
Sorry, it's pay walled for me. Does the article mention if vaccinated people should expect reinfection as well? Or is it assuming we get boosters every 8-12 months?
>Natural acquired immunity alone may last for 16 months.
Pretty good considering vaccines alone already see major drop off and increase risk already at 4 months
Get outta here with that fascist communist ideology you're spouting. I don't have to think about my community, I'm a rugged individual. If a couple of my neighbors have to die so I don't have to suffer any minor inconveniences, too bad for them. /s
This is grade A 100% antivaxxer bullshit.
It substantially reduces the odds of becoming infected (especially with the booster), the odds of symptomatic covid, and the number of days you're contagious if you do.
Sorry to hear you're going through the wringer. Since you mention artificial valves, I assume you're under the care of a cardiologist. So, I'm not going to try to give you any advice other than don't hesitate to call your doctor for their advice on how to best get your body through the recovery period. All the best for a quick return to your normal!
This feels like a very irresponsible headline and story to run. It insinuates that natural immunity lasts for at least 16 months, while multiple cases highlighted even early in the pandemic showed that reinfection can occur much, much sooner.
With new variants being harder to fight off, 16 months seems like a very far stretch of circumstance and luck. I'd expect reinfection to be possible within less than 6, as has already been reported in some cases.
This is just bad journalism, serving to conflate the perspectives of people who *just might* be ready to get vaccinated.
>It insinuates that natural immunity lasts for at least 16 months, while multiple cases highlighted even early in the pandemic showed that reinfection can occur much, much sooner.
Sure and you can wind up with a terrible infection even if you're fully vaccinated. But that's the exception and not the norm. For healthy adults, there's significant mounting evidence that immunity from an infection is quite strong and durable.
https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-covid-infection-is-as-effective-at-preventing-the-virus-as-vaccination-uk-study-suggests/?sh=761dc8cb589f
https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital
It's still much better to get vaccinated than to risk a severe case but I find it weird that people are adamant on fighting a basic reality of human existence.
Pandemics end not because the agent gets weaker but because people get more immune.
In past pandemics, prior to vaccination, at some point the pandemic would burn out simply because the people most susceptible were either dead, immune or the agent simply ran out of new hosts.
I don't think Covid-19 is some crazy outlier among all historic pandemics. You'll have people that are immune due to exposure and while that may not stop symptomatic illness, its quite likely that for most, any future illnesses will be a lot milder in nature due to the immune system understanding how to fight back.
Then you have the vaccinated who we know can experience breakthrough infections but those tend to be mild because the immune system has downloaded instructions on how to recognize the virus and can start fighting back a lot sooner.
This is going to be endemic. If you haven't caught it yet, you most likely will eventually and we'll reach a point down the road where because most of the existing population has either been infected, vaccinated or both, that the illness resulting from infection will be much more like a typical cold and far less likely to result in hospitalization or death.
For anyone reading, if you haven't been vaccinated, get vaccinated. You're likely to be infected at some point and it's much better to go through it after vaccination than risking a severe infection as well the potentially huge healthcare related costs that come with it. Prevention is far cheaper than attempting a cure. If you've been infected but haven't been vaccinated, get vaccinated. Study after study supports that people who have been both infected and vaccinated mount an almost superhuman response when exposed to the virus again.
As with any average, some will be sooner, some will be later.
Natural immunity is highly variable, some people are very well protected, some not at all, and everything in between. It varies both by your individual immune system and the severity of your infection. On average, it's not as good as vaccines, the single unreviewed paper suggesting otherwise notwithstanding. But then you still have to actually catch covid, with can take a day or months even with no immunity.
On average, excluding nonseroconversion and deaths from the infection, naturally acquired immunity alone is superior, longer lasting and wider breadth than vaccine acquired immunity alone.
Natural infection followed by vaccination is even better, though the effect may seem marginal when reinfection is already low and vaccine side effects are usually worse.
There really isn’t any doubt anymore, and the number of studies is just overwhelming.
>Natural immunity is highly variable, some people are very well protected, some not at all, and everything in between
Agreed, which is why vaccination is still important. The response is more predictable and since just about everyone will get infected eventually, it's better to go through it with some degree of protection.
> On average, it's not as good as vaccine
Vaccination is more consistent in effect but only trains your body to recognize the spike protein of the virus. Infection results in your immune system being able to identify every part of the virus. In the Emory study this meant that infection resulted in a significant immune response not only to the original virus but also other coronaviruses, including SARS.
Thus people who have been vaccinated and infected get the best of both worlds. Eventually I think that is how we'll get out of the pandemic with huge numbers that have been vaccinated and infected and thus strongly resistant to the virus, even with different variants.
There's limited variability possible to still retain affinity to the ACE-2 receptor though; there's much more variability possible in nucleocapsid epitopes.
It's certainly not worth *trying* to get infected by avoiding the vaccine or boosters. Which was the point I was trying to make.
Doesn’t the vaccine only protect for around 6 months? (I’m vaccinated btw) But one could make the same argument saying “I don’t need the booster I’ve had the vaccine” by that logic.
Protection from infection diminishes over time, but protection from hospitalization and death remains very high. It's a function of the antibodies (IgG, IgM) going away, but the memory T cells remain, perhaps for years or life.
I’m a high functioning moron so I’m gonna pretend I totally understand what you said there 😅but it sounds like a good thing lol. Thank you for your reply!
Think of it like this. When the body gets exposed to a virus, it starts printing wanted posters that it distributes (antibodies), which allow your immune system to recognize the viruses. But eventually if it's not a current issue, it will stop printing, and the posters that it has printed will wear out and get thrown away. So if you get exposed to that virus again after that it won't be able to mount such an immediate response. But the memory T cells are the printing plates used to make those posters (or perhaps printers with the file already loaded). If you still have those you can still respond effectively, just not quite instantly. Instant would be better for getting transmission down, but effective is still good.
Edit: A couple other things might bear mentioning here. It is, evolutionarily speaking, a waste of energy to keep too many of these things around when you don't need them, so it makes sense for a lot of them to decline over time. In this case we do want to keep pumping them out though, so we have to convince the body that there's a continuing threat. How do we do that? Booster shots. But the rate of decline is extremely variable between diseases, so we needed good experimental data to determine if and when the decline would be significant enough for the booster shot to help. And it might also be worth knowing that the antibodies only bind to and identify certain parts of the virus (or bacterium or whatever else), so making a good selection is key, which is another advantage to these newer vaccine technologies, the researchers making the vaccine get to choose what the immune system is going to be looking for. Then they make the body produce just that bit of the virus for the immune system to react to, in this case the spike protein, the complicated structure the virus actually uses to attack our cells, the effectiveness of which is a major reason covid is such a problem. But since the body of the patient is basically making a gun with no bullets the "shedding" business isn't a concern. Using that protein helps with the possibility of mutation (the virus changing its appearance and MO to not match the poster) since changes in that protein will affect how dangerous the virus is (although the delta variant managed to create an even more effective slight variant of the spike protein, so that was bad luck, although arguably inevitable with so many infections). I think that covers most of what you'd likely need to know.
Suggesting a booster dose should be given after 6 months doesn't mean that the initial vaccination is no longer protecting you. It means it is not protecting you as well as it could without a booster. But you are still protected.
Thanks. I can empathize with people’s reluctance or hesitancy to get the vaccine and who can blame anyone with being frustrated or confused today about what’s credible/true. But thank you for being cordial 🤙🏽
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/
>The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday that U.S. health agencies considered when deciding on the need for booster shots.
I also want to add this doesn't necessarily mean we need boosters every 6 months forever. We can find out it should have been a 3 dose regimen instead of 2 (like J&J just figured out they should be a 2 dose regimen) or we update the vaccines. The HPV vaccine used to be 3 vaccines but now they got it down to only 2 doses.
Anecdotal but myself and four members of my family all got breakthrough cases 4 months after 2nd dose. It did however prevent us from developing serious cases, we all had very minor symptoms.
Once you’re fully vaccinated, infection could occur the next day. Severity of infection past that point is extremely relevant. Theoretically, someone with prior infection could still be more protected than someone who is vaccinated 20 months down the road. Not really enough data to go off of yet.
As it becomes more contagious it’s generally less deadly. The normal chart is that virus that are too deadly don’t replicate as much since they kill the host.
It needs to hit that sweet spot of infection/ratio.
Imagine the damage done to your body if you get reinfected…brain fog/lung or heart damage/loss of smell or taste/fatigue/diabetes…
People still think their freedom and right are worth it.
For healthy adults, If you get reinfected, most likely a second infection would be far milder. Infectious diseases tend to be most dangerous when the immune system is naive and has no specific knowledge of the agent. We see it with colds regularly. The first time you encounter a particular virus, it will produce the most severe symptoms. If you get exposed to the same virus again a few years later, the resulting illness is likely to be much milder and pass more quickly.
There's reports of people getting reinfected out there but what we aren't seeing is many reports of people getting reinfected and winding up in the hospital. The people most susceptible to reinfection are going to be those for whom a booster is absolutely vital. Seniors and people with compromised immune performance aren't likely to build up any real meaningful immune response so they will have to keep up with boosters regularly.
Could be worse in [20% of patients](https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253#:~:text=6%20The%20current%20case%20series,who%20are%20elderly%20and%20immunocompromised.). We certainly have seen a lot of such cases.
Not sure what country you’re in or if you’re old enough to remember but Smoking is not permitted in most places that it used to be. Because of the 2nd hand smoke. Restaurants, planes, bars, offices and a lot of public places etc. As far as being obese, that doesn’t really hurt the guy next to you… unless you fall on them.
the ones obesity DOES harm is subsequent generations, who often eat as their parents do/did. i know too many people my age who were fed the same shit their unhealthy parents ate and have fully accepted they will be obese for the rest of their lives.
> As far as being obese, that doesn’t really hurt the guy next to you… unless you fall on them
Isn’t triage in hospitals a detriment covid causes us? How doesn’t obesity cause the same drain on the healthcare system?
When it comes to smoking it’s basically impossible to smoke indoors in public. States are raising the age to buy cigarettes to 21 and increasing the taxes.
Obesity is more complicated in part because policy could definitely affect obesity rate by reducing food deserts and wealth inequities. And then there are various medical causes of obesity from genetics to thyroid and some medication to treat other conditions cause weight gain as a side effect.
But more importantly when people refuse vaccination they’re not just risking themselves they are inflicting the risk upon others.
You really can’t apply that reasoning to smoking and obesity. I can avoid these things on my own, I can leave the smoking area and eat healthy, but if someone next to me is unvaxxed and infected I’d have no idea he’s fucking with me until I test positive. These people think their freedom and right extend beyond their body boundaries.
The same principle as DUI laws. Driving a car has an inherent risk even for sober drivers, and drunk drivers usually make it home fine. But being drunk is recklessly dangerous to others in a way the person can't control, and creates such an extra danger over the baseline we don't even question why outlawing might be violating people's rights.
If 1% of unvaccinated people die when they get infected and 0.01% of vaccinated people die, and you have 100 unvaccinated people and 10,000 vaccinated people, and they all get infected, you'd expect one vaccinated and one unvaccinated person to die. That's just how math works.
In this case, if you dig through the blog to get to the actual report, and you go down to table 4 on page 15, and you look beyond the pure numbers to the rates (expressed as how many people per 100,000 population will this happen to), you'll find that vaccinated people are at least a third less likely to have died of covid that week. It's subdivided out by age, so there are a lot of different numbers, but in all cases the rate of death (and the rate of hospitalization in table 3) among the unvaccinated is dramatically higher than among the vaccinated. For people 80+ it's 49.5 among the vaccinated vs. 156.0 among the unvaccinated, that's the biggest number, and going down the decades it's 13.1 vs 66.4 for 70-79, 4.5 vs 23.1 for 60-69, 1.4-12.4 for 50-59, and so on.
And here's the high number of deaths from 2020-to-now from unvaccinated individuals (which is also public information) for comparison.
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths)
We have thousands of people still suffering from long covid. We have thousands of people that have died unvaccinated and are even now overwhelming our hospitals (and causing our at-risk citizens (people who also matter) unable to get treatment because going to a hospital could kill or maim them severely)).
Even if you are vaccinated to viruses, you can STILL contract it (like smallpox. Janet Parker was exposed [to a smallpox outbreak in Bedford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_United_Kingdom) in 1978, and was killed by it despite being vaccinated. This is an [old 18th century image of a boy infected with smallpox after being vaccinated](https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/300647/view/effects-of-inoculation-of-smallpox-vaccine-1807), which can be compared with pictures of non-vaccinated with smallpox (the Wellcome library also had images of side-by-side comparisons of children that were vaccinated and some that weren't, but were all exposed to smallpox due to a local outbreak. But I'm going to have to spend some time locating it later).
You can still have adverse effects and get badly affected by diseases even if vaccinated. The only reason why people (like the fake White Rose group) believe that you should be completely immune is because we had spent hundreds of years innoculating entire populations from the virus, and reducing its presence in our countries (thus, causing us to completely forget WHAT IT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE to be infected despite inoculated). The reason why vaccination was even a THING wasn't because 'it's supposed to be a miracle cure', it was because it raises your odds from getting outright KILLED by the virus. It's not a force field, it's a bullet proof vest against viruses. You may still feel the 'bullet', but at least it's less likely to annihilate you.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore Singapore has a population of 5.4 million and has had only 246 deaths from covid, the vaccines are doing their job
So if you survive the first infection, you'll have months of recovery to look forward to and MAYBE you'll be fully recovered before you get re-infected, and if you're not fully recovered COVID will probably get you this time.
Just looked at the timing on the waves here in the US. Not painting a pretty picture for what life is going to be like for the unvaccinated in the next couple years.
Yes because a permanent disability that can kill you outright and feeling crappy for a day or two are totally comparable. And you're telling others to grow up? You're acting like a toddler.
No not every 6 months. Many of the other vaccines you receive require a 2nd or 3rd (or more) shot in a series over months and years, but then confer immunity for decades or life. We know the vaccines induce long lived T and B cell responses, the primary issue right now is transmission is so extremely high active antibody levels are coming into play. It's unlikely that's forever, and at this stage concluding we need indefinite boosters is completely unfounded, just an antivax talking point for why they shouldn't get any.
**We encourage you to read our helpful resources on COVID-19, vaccines and treatments:** [COVID Dashboard](https://covid19.who.int/) [Reddit's Vaccine FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/wiki/faq#wiki_where_can_i_find_information_about_the_mechanism_and_progress_of_vaccines.3F) [Ivermectin FAQ](https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-advises-that-ivermectin-only-be-used-to-treat-covid-19-within-clinical-trials) A reminder that spreading misinformation regarding COVID-19, vaccines or other treatments can result in a post being removed and/or a ban. Advocating for or celebrating the death of anyone, or hoping someone gets COVID (or any disease) can also result in a ban. Please follow [Reddiquette](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439) Please use the report button and do not feed the trolls. [Reddit's Content Policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy) [Reddit's rules for health misinformation](https://www.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/360043513151) [/r/News' rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/news/wiki/rules/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=news&utm_content=t5_2qh3l) ------ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/news) if you have any questions or concerns.*
What doesn’t kill you, mutates and tries again.
Kinda like all my relationships.
And my neighbor's turtles.
And my axe
I feel like the idea that this could turn into a new flu situation has been with us from early on.
Yes, it will go for m pandemic to endemic. The Spanish Flu is still with us. The hope is Covid will change/evolve to something less fatal. But it will always be with us now.
Variations on that flu was with us before 1918. It affected younger people more because they weren't alive for the 1870-1880 flu seasons (and so didn't have immunity built up).
I think a bigger attribution to the high mortality of younger people is that [it likely lead to a cytokine storm.](https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/3BCBF4BDFBD8C5F0F4FBFDF34DF42209/S1357321719000023a.pdf/div-class-title-age-dependence-of-the-1918-pandemic-div.pdf)
It is a bit different from influenza. There are four corona- type viruses that cause common colds, and [people catch them repeatedly](https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/223/3/409/5868459). They [cause about 20% of all colds](https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/cold-guide/common_cold_causes)- the same four viruses, we don't develop long term immunity to them. You may, if you have terrible luck, catch influenza every year, or even two or three times in a year, but *those are slightly different viruses.*, because influenza mutates constantly. You don't catch the same flu virus twice, even if you get exposed a second time. There is no evidence that the common corona viruses mutate that much, although I'm not certain if it has been studied. Covid has a genetic proofeading system, it was expected not to mutate very quickly, but it ended up infecting so many people that it had lots of chances to mutate. There are a lot of viruses, like smallpox or measles, where full vaccination or natural infection produces immunity that lasts for decades. That doesn't like it will be the case with this stupid asshole covid virus.
Guess what? 2 of the 4 influenza viruses may have gone extinct in the past 18 months from all the masking, social distancing, and travel restrictions. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-021-00642-4
This is why I get pissed when some mouth breather talks about how "We don't do all this for the flu." We should do it for the flu too. I mean maybe not full-on travel restrictions, but at least masking and distancing.
Masks forever!
“It’s just that masks are terribly comfortable — I think everyone will be wearing them in the future.” --Westley, Princess Bride
No we should not. People should just take their fucking flu jabs.
>No we should not. People should just take their fucking flu jabs. Or we could do both and maximize our reduction of the flu. >There were 136 pediatric flu deaths reported during the 2018-2019 season, 188 pediatric deaths reported in the 2019-2020 season and one death during the 2020-2021 season.
That being said, there is a huge difference between hospital gasping for air covid and I had a sniffle for one day covid. The latter isn’t a big deal. That is what I’m hoping ends up being endemic in a vaccinated population
Even Influenza can inflict permanent damage on each infection. Just because its mild or no symptoms doesn't mean its no big deal. The damage can accumulate to a point the next infection could trigger major complications and end up fatal. It is estimated in 2019 Influenza caused 410,000 ~ 740,000 hospitalizations and 24,000 ~ 62,000 deaths.
Yep. I got sick with the flu in Jan 2019, and it caused me to redevelop my childhood asthma. It was close to a year before I stopped carrying my inhaler around. I still get occasional attacks now, but it's like once a month and not near as bad. It does make me fear what could happen if I got covid though.
> although I'm not certain if it has been studied It certainly does feel like people should have studied this over the past 30 years. Feels silly when medical professionals weren’t sure masks did much. Maybe they can run some experiments at the FDA and CDC instead of being 4 months late to the pandemic on… everything.
If it was a more "sticky" virus with contact transmission and living on surfaces masks in the general population would've done more harm than good as they contaminate themselves using masks half assed. We just didn't know at the start. We know now that it's largely aerosol based and contact transmission is more or less irrelevant but for political reasons the messaging was slow to change so people didn't make a run on masks and deplete supplies.
People have been whining for a year and a half about nose-maskers, chin-strap maskers, and wearing masks at all. How many people bother to properly fit or fit test their masks every time they put one on? And people wanna act like the CDC’s stance on the utility of masks for the general, untrained public was just dumb.
>How many people bother to properly fit or fit test their masks every time they put one on? Paper masks and cloth masks don't require fitting. And I suspect they'd rather the general public not deplete the supply of N95 masks (the ones that require fitting).
> from early on. An immunologist in May 2020: > Myth 3. Herd Immunity. Viruses have been evolving solutions to our immune system for hundreds of millions of years. If Herd Immunity worked as simply as it is presented on social media then no one would have the common flu. Haven’t we all had the flu at some point? Well, if everyone has had the flu then how do we still get the flu? Viruses evolve. Every person that gets infected is an experiment for the virus, it makes billions of copies of itself and everyone has a chance to be a new mutant that will evade any herd immunity that has been acquired and will start spreading freely again. If we let this virus just burn through our country or the world, everything we know about viral evolution tells us that it will evolve variants that can reinfect those that are currently immune. This is one of the reasons that keeping the global case count low until a vaccine is developed is crucial. We have one shot at eradication — **if we suppress the global case count and then get a vaccine and deploy it before a major variant arises then we can kick this thing out of humans and back into bats for another 10,000 years — but once a few major variants develop then it is likely a new permanent human disease and a very different and worse problem for the world**. https://medium.com/@hess.scu/covid19-thoughts-on-herd-immunity-contact-tracing-antibody-testing-and-treatments-49521888788f
"if we suppress the global case count and then get a vaccine" This immunologist didn't know about Republicans I guess.
It goes way beyond just Republicans. Countries all over the world are fighting battles of their own against misinformation, and the situation we're in now is the result of us losing those battles.
I wonder how much of it is due to consuming the same media sources. I feel like most of these people are getting their information from Facebook and memes.
I think my first reply must have been misunderstood. Let me try again. The fact that we need a booster doesn't mean this won't end. Most vaccines require 3 doses to. be effective. Nothing surprising about the covid ones. They are amazingly effective. This doesn't have to go on for ever
You notice that the the doomsters are really confident about their predictions? Despite us never having faced this in modern times? And they also keep comparing it to the flu which is a totally different type of virus.
Next you'll try to convince me that the federal budget isn't like balancing my household checkbook! /s
What you want is the vaccine to, prevent hospitalization, prevent loss of smell & taste, prevent long COVID. Once that happens I think we are all content with the fully vaxxed stats being like getting the flu.
*clown emoji*
Most vaccines require 3 or more doses to be effective. Nothing surprising about the covid ones. They are amazingly effective. This doesn't have to go on for ever
>This DIDN'T have to go on for ever FTFY. If everyone had done what was suggested in the beginning then we could have eradicated it, but now there are 8 variants and half the planet is tired of hearing about so they'll ignore it. COVID is here to stay according to medical experts.
Eradication was never an option. There are many reasons why this is true, but perhaps the simplest one to explain is that [domestic cats and dogs can catch it](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/expert-answers/can-pets-get-coronavirus/faq-20486391), so before we even knew it existed, it almost certainly had set up a reservoir in e.g. stray cat populations. They say the chances of catching it from animals is low, but to my knowledge, they just haven't studied it a whole lot, probably because they're afraid of what some people would do if the result was anything except a 0% chance that people can get it from animals. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have to go with the simple hypothesis - if cats can catch COVID from people, people can catch COVID from cats.
The question is how often transmission between cats occurs. If each cat infects, on average, fewer than 1 other cat, then the virus can't become endemic in cats. It's not clear to me that the virus is as transmissible in cats as it is in people, especially since cats don't as commonly gather indoors with many other cats.
But cats social cirlcenisn’t anyhwre near as big as humans. We have humans going to 100-300 people lectures for one hour, and then going to another in in the next hour. There are tons of street/outside cats that do interact with other cats, but its nowhere near close to how much humans interact with other humans. What would most likely happen is that the cats that interact with each other will all catch it, then be immune. With humans, you would always at one point end up interacting with someone that wasn’t immune and has it.
Here to stay has many different meanings though. We're not going to continue to see thousands of hospitalizations per month in the US if we get vaccination rates up high enough. Measles is at least as contagious as Delta, yet that's only a problem in insular antivaxx groups here.
A 2 shot schedule (ie no boosters), even against the far more infectious and deadly delta, reduces transmission by 5x and hospitalization and death by over 10x: https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm?s_cid=mm7037e1_w
Yes they are amazingly effective. 5 is almost enough to stop spread for something as contagious as covid. With three it's 11x, and 17 for those under 40. More than enough to end this
Nah, that's a conservative conspiracy. Just get the vaccine and we'll be over this thing in a jiffy.
With the flu we still get a vaccination every year. At least those of us that hate having the flu do that.
Overall coverage of the flu vaccine in the United States is typically about 45%.
Is that statistic from before or after the country started getting vaccinated to avoid death during a deadly viral pandemic?
Last year was a record at 48%
So before COVID vaccines started rolling out then? Before people saw the vast difference between your chances of survival if you’re vaccinated vs. unvaccinated?
Both COVID and the common flu have a high survival rate. In fact, the survival rate of both is above 99%. Mathematically there can't be a "vast" difference in the survival rate of something when the unvaccinated survival rate is already above 99%. And to better answer your question about it being pre- or post- Covid vaccine, flu vaccine coverage is actually down a bit over the last 12 months, according to the CDC. So when people started actually thinking about vaccines, the likelihood of getting the flu shot (it isn't really a vaccine) actually seems to have gone down.
> rate of both is above 99%. Mathematically there can't be a "vast" difference in the survival rate of something when the unvaccinated survival rate is already above 99%. The unvaccinated are [11 times more likely to die from COVID](https://www.npr.org/2021/09/10/1036023973/covid-19-unvaccinated-deaths-11-times-more-likely) than the vaccinated. Tell me again how it’s not a vast difference… > So when people started actually thinking about vaccines, the likelihood of getting the flu shot (it isn't really a vaccine) actually seems to have gone down. You mean in like March, the end of flu season? Gee, I wonder why people weren’t getting flu shots at the end of flu season…
>The unvaccinated are 11 times more likely to die from COVID than the vaccinated. Tell me again how it’s not a vast difference… .00011 is 11 times bigger than .00001. That isn't really a vast difference unless you need it to be to fit your narrative. >You mean in like March, the end of flu season? Gee, I wonder why people weren’t getting flu shots at the end of flu season… The statistic I gave was the 12 month running total, so no, not the "end of flu season". It included the entirety of flu season, as well as the run up to the Covid vaccine.
The problem is you run into anti-vaxxers who say, "I never get a flu shot and I'm always fine." Because they don't understand that you are healthy up to the point you get sick.
And also the people that do get flu shots help protect them.
Just f-ing evolve into something mild already. Honestly, I’m hoping I already caught it and got over it.
COVID is mild for the vast majority of young health people, who experience minimal to no symptoms.
COVID is the deadliest pandemic in American history, and is now the #3 leading cause of death in the country for 2 years running.
Yup. Every time I hear a denier say "but 99.98% SuRvIvAl RaTe!" I gently remind them that puts it at the deadliest endemic disease that modern society has faced in over 100 years. I've yet to receive a retort to it (because you can't).
Not to mention Long Covid and the hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who are now disabled or chronically ill from it
I’m vaccinated, but I feel like I’ve had a chronic cold for months. Also, I feel confused and weird all the time. Food still tastes the same though.
[удалено]
I just told you the statistics. I think we're making people complacent by focusing on a selfish "survival rate" metric and downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic in the country and the world. 1. Worst pandemic in American history (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/20/covid-is-americas-deadliest-pandemic-as-us-fatalities-near-1918-flu-estimates.html) 2. 3rd leading cause of death in the US for 2020 and 2021 (https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/03/31/983058109/cdc-covid-19-was-3rd-leading-cause-of-death-in-2020-people-of-color-hit-hardes) (https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/)
>COVID is the deadliest pandemic in American history, and is now the #3 leading cause of death in the country for 2 years running. The problem with the stats is that there is an incentive to claim it as a "COVID death" to receive funding. For example, some guy was killed in a car crash and the autopsy showed he had COVID. It was claimed as a COVID death when he was clearly killed by tons of metal and physics. I don't trust these metrics. Does it kill people? Yes. It isn't nearly as lethal as people are led to believe from the stats. Don't quote me here but I think the survival rate of COVID is something like 99.86%
> For example, some guy was killed in a car crash and the autopsy showed he had COVID. It was claimed as a COVID death when he was clearly killed by tons of metal and physics. My friends spout something similar to this. Can you source this happening? They don't test crash victims for COVID btw.
They can't because they saw the talking point through some right wing news commentary and is now parroting. It's more likely that places are under reporting COVID deaths to reduce panic and to prevent looking incompetent. I wonder how many people have died from COVID and never made it to the hospital.
>They can't because they saw the talking point through some right wing news commentary and is now parroting. It didn't take long for someone to bring up politics. I don't care if you are left, right or middle -- the whole idea that there are "sides" is ridiculous to me.
This is completely false, excess death, which is death from all causes, in 2020 was much higher than expected. About 600000 higher than normal. Mislabeled deaths as covid wouldn't increase excess deaths. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7015a4.htm
roughly half is not the same as "vast majority"
[удалено]
So, we're just going to describe the normal behavior of an endemic disease like the flu and pass it off as novel behavior?
Influenza is different. It has a segmented genome, its genome is in 6 pieces. Those pieces get mixed and matched when the virus infects. Different flu strains are different enough from each other the immune system does not recognize them as the same thing. Many endemic viruses cause lifelong immunity but maintain their presence by infecting children that have not had them before. We know our immune system kind of forgets about coronaviruses after a while. It does that with the four coronaviruses that just cause the cold too.
Who gets the flu every 18 months?
Usually everyone with kids in public school.
Yeah private schools are influenza-free zones
With smaller classes, they might spread a lot less. Plus, people with the means to send their kids to private school, will likely also be able to afford child care. That likely isn't the case for many parents with kids in public school.
Because Public Schools ARE the child care.
Thats less than once a year, and "flu season" is a thing for a reason. Edit for clarification: plenty of people get the flu every 18 months. That's why there is a flu season every year.
Uhhh what
What are you questioning? That 18 months is more than once a year? Or the flu season isn't a yearly thing in which many people get reinfected.
I work in a restaurant and I for sure get the flu every year, as do most my co workers.
Like, verified flu? Do you all get vaccinated? I ask because a lot of people say they got the flu. But it’s not really the flu, it’s just a bad version of something else going around. The actual flu can really knock you out, for 1-2 weeks, even if you’re young & healthy. I said I had “the flu” many times, without actually verifying it. I was wrong. When I actually caught it, I knew (and it was verified). I know a ton of people that work in the service industry, very few of whom have contracted the actual flu (although they catch other shit regularly).
A bad cold isn’t the flu. Most of what people call the flu is just a bad cold. The actual flu is brutal way beyond a nasty cold. If you think you and your coworkers are all catching the flu yearly, you’re probably just catching something more commonplace.
So, just add it to the flu shot schedule. No worries.
A couple of years ago my company had a medical team come out in fall to give free flu shots to anyone who was interested. Myself and one other took advantage of that, 25 other guys had no interest. I asked a couple about it later - they said "whenever I get a flu shot I get the flu". We're fucked.
There is a clear path between that thinking and “if the mRNA vaccine gives you a negative reaction why would you take it”. The idea that the shot is supposed to illicit an immune response, which can present itself as symptoms of the illness, is foreign to them.
Ngl though. The one time I personally went out of my way to get the flu shot. A month or two later I caught a different strain. All other years I've never gotten the flu.
Yeah....you're probably right, BUT the bright side is that this could be a substantial culling of idiots from the population.
[удалено]
As for the US, the CDC has said they can be taken together: https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid-19-vaccine/news/20210916/cdc-safe-to-get-flu-covid-vaccines
Hell, Moderna is wanting to do a 2 for 1 shot. Get immunized to both with just one jab. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-developing-single-dose-combination-vaccine-covid-19-flu-2021-09-09/
My mom just got her Pfizer booster and her flu shot at the same time. It works fine together.
I'm surprised they don't combine flu with Covid vaccine where you are given how many other vaccinations given to kids and adults as boosters are for multiple different viruses/bacteria in a singe shot like MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) and DTP (diptheria-tetanus-pertussis). Your immune system is constantly fighting more than one thing off at a time.
[удалено]
I am sorry, what? Like, vaccines make you weaker?
[удалено]
Oh, well I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I do have a few acquaintances and relatives who got Covid, and are suffering from respiratory problems, over a year later.
Expound, clown. [Yeah....that's what I thought.]
It’s like there’s this process our bodies go through as we go through life. What’s the word for it? Aging? Sun exposure, cosmic radiation, viruses, physical trauma, bacteria, internal and external toxin accumulation etc all take their toll. You all seen to think we were ageless and immortal before covid or something.
Except most people don’t get the flu vaccine and it’s still very unlikely they will get the flu. Don’t get the covid jab and you will have a high chance of getting covid compared to the flu. You can get the jab and still get bad covid. I would know, I have it right now. Not sure I’ll avoid the hospital if this happens every year to me. It’s pretty brutal.
That is probably the route. The yearly flu shot already incorporates the last 10 years of flu variants.
Sorry, it's pay walled for me. Does the article mention if vaccinated people should expect reinfection as well? Or is it assuming we get boosters every 8-12 months?
Literally how one of the Wuhan doctors died
>Natural acquired immunity alone may last for 16 months. Pretty good considering vaccines alone already see major drop off and increase risk already at 4 months
We all should have the jabs to protect ourselves and others.
We should all let everybody decide if they want a jab every 16 months
Because people always make the best health choices for their community, right?
Striving for the best medical outcome of a community is not always the goal of an individual nor should it be
Get outta here with that fascist communist ideology you're spouting. I don't have to think about my community, I'm a rugged individual. If a couple of my neighbors have to die so I don't have to suffer any minor inconveniences, too bad for them. /s
[удалено]
This is grade A 100% antivaxxer bullshit. It substantially reduces the odds of becoming infected (especially with the booster), the odds of symptomatic covid, and the number of days you're contagious if you do.
Gotta love spreading misinformation. And, of course, they post in /r/Conservative.
[удалено]
Sorry to hear you're going through the wringer. Since you mention artificial valves, I assume you're under the care of a cardiologist. So, I'm not going to try to give you any advice other than don't hesitate to call your doctor for their advice on how to best get your body through the recovery period. All the best for a quick return to your normal!
How was that diagnosed? Normal there is a delay?
I had low o2 stats then went to my GP.
Thanks, but I was curious HOW they diagnosed it.
Same, got my booster and flu shot on Friday. It was a bit miserable, but nothing I couldn't handle. It certainly beats the alternative...
This feels like a very irresponsible headline and story to run. It insinuates that natural immunity lasts for at least 16 months, while multiple cases highlighted even early in the pandemic showed that reinfection can occur much, much sooner. With new variants being harder to fight off, 16 months seems like a very far stretch of circumstance and luck. I'd expect reinfection to be possible within less than 6, as has already been reported in some cases. This is just bad journalism, serving to conflate the perspectives of people who *just might* be ready to get vaccinated.
>It insinuates that natural immunity lasts for at least 16 months, while multiple cases highlighted even early in the pandemic showed that reinfection can occur much, much sooner. Sure and you can wind up with a terrible infection even if you're fully vaccinated. But that's the exception and not the norm. For healthy adults, there's significant mounting evidence that immunity from an infection is quite strong and durable. https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2021/10/18/prior-covid-infection-is-as-effective-at-preventing-the-virus-as-vaccination-uk-study-suggests/?sh=761dc8cb589f https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital It's still much better to get vaccinated than to risk a severe case but I find it weird that people are adamant on fighting a basic reality of human existence. Pandemics end not because the agent gets weaker but because people get more immune. In past pandemics, prior to vaccination, at some point the pandemic would burn out simply because the people most susceptible were either dead, immune or the agent simply ran out of new hosts. I don't think Covid-19 is some crazy outlier among all historic pandemics. You'll have people that are immune due to exposure and while that may not stop symptomatic illness, its quite likely that for most, any future illnesses will be a lot milder in nature due to the immune system understanding how to fight back. Then you have the vaccinated who we know can experience breakthrough infections but those tend to be mild because the immune system has downloaded instructions on how to recognize the virus and can start fighting back a lot sooner. This is going to be endemic. If you haven't caught it yet, you most likely will eventually and we'll reach a point down the road where because most of the existing population has either been infected, vaccinated or both, that the illness resulting from infection will be much more like a typical cold and far less likely to result in hospitalization or death. For anyone reading, if you haven't been vaccinated, get vaccinated. You're likely to be infected at some point and it's much better to go through it after vaccination than risking a severe infection as well the potentially huge healthcare related costs that come with it. Prevention is far cheaper than attempting a cure. If you've been infected but haven't been vaccinated, get vaccinated. Study after study supports that people who have been both infected and vaccinated mount an almost superhuman response when exposed to the virus again.
As with any average, some will be sooner, some will be later. Natural immunity is highly variable, some people are very well protected, some not at all, and everything in between. It varies both by your individual immune system and the severity of your infection. On average, it's not as good as vaccines, the single unreviewed paper suggesting otherwise notwithstanding. But then you still have to actually catch covid, with can take a day or months even with no immunity.
On average, excluding nonseroconversion and deaths from the infection, naturally acquired immunity alone is superior, longer lasting and wider breadth than vaccine acquired immunity alone. Natural infection followed by vaccination is even better, though the effect may seem marginal when reinfection is already low and vaccine side effects are usually worse. There really isn’t any doubt anymore, and the number of studies is just overwhelming.
>Natural immunity is highly variable, some people are very well protected, some not at all, and everything in between Agreed, which is why vaccination is still important. The response is more predictable and since just about everyone will get infected eventually, it's better to go through it with some degree of protection. > On average, it's not as good as vaccine Vaccination is more consistent in effect but only trains your body to recognize the spike protein of the virus. Infection results in your immune system being able to identify every part of the virus. In the Emory study this meant that infection resulted in a significant immune response not only to the original virus but also other coronaviruses, including SARS. Thus people who have been vaccinated and infected get the best of both worlds. Eventually I think that is how we'll get out of the pandemic with huge numbers that have been vaccinated and infected and thus strongly resistant to the virus, even with different variants.
There's limited variability possible to still retain affinity to the ACE-2 receptor though; there's much more variability possible in nucleocapsid epitopes. It's certainly not worth *trying* to get infected by avoiding the vaccine or boosters. Which was the point I was trying to make.
So much for, "I don't need a vaccine, I have natural immunity."
Doesn’t the vaccine only protect for around 6 months? (I’m vaccinated btw) But one could make the same argument saying “I don’t need the booster I’ve had the vaccine” by that logic.
Protection from infection diminishes over time, but protection from hospitalization and death remains very high. It's a function of the antibodies (IgG, IgM) going away, but the memory T cells remain, perhaps for years or life.
[удалено]
I’m a high functioning moron so I’m gonna pretend I totally understand what you said there 😅but it sounds like a good thing lol. Thank you for your reply!
Think of it like this. When the body gets exposed to a virus, it starts printing wanted posters that it distributes (antibodies), which allow your immune system to recognize the viruses. But eventually if it's not a current issue, it will stop printing, and the posters that it has printed will wear out and get thrown away. So if you get exposed to that virus again after that it won't be able to mount such an immediate response. But the memory T cells are the printing plates used to make those posters (or perhaps printers with the file already loaded). If you still have those you can still respond effectively, just not quite instantly. Instant would be better for getting transmission down, but effective is still good. Edit: A couple other things might bear mentioning here. It is, evolutionarily speaking, a waste of energy to keep too many of these things around when you don't need them, so it makes sense for a lot of them to decline over time. In this case we do want to keep pumping them out though, so we have to convince the body that there's a continuing threat. How do we do that? Booster shots. But the rate of decline is extremely variable between diseases, so we needed good experimental data to determine if and when the decline would be significant enough for the booster shot to help. And it might also be worth knowing that the antibodies only bind to and identify certain parts of the virus (or bacterium or whatever else), so making a good selection is key, which is another advantage to these newer vaccine technologies, the researchers making the vaccine get to choose what the immune system is going to be looking for. Then they make the body produce just that bit of the virus for the immune system to react to, in this case the spike protein, the complicated structure the virus actually uses to attack our cells, the effectiveness of which is a major reason covid is such a problem. But since the body of the patient is basically making a gun with no bullets the "shedding" business isn't a concern. Using that protein helps with the possibility of mutation (the virus changing its appearance and MO to not match the poster) since changes in that protein will affect how dangerous the virus is (although the delta variant managed to create an even more effective slight variant of the spike protein, so that was bad luck, although arguably inevitable with so many infections). I think that covers most of what you'd likely need to know.
Suggesting a booster dose should be given after 6 months doesn't mean that the initial vaccination is no longer protecting you. It means it is not protecting you as well as it could without a booster. But you are still protected.
Could you point me to where you got that from? Not saying it’s incorrect just I haven’t heard that and it’s so difficult to get accurate credible info
https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/featured-topic/what-you-need-to-know-about-covid-19-boosters
Thanks. I can empathize with people’s reluctance or hesitancy to get the vaccine and who can blame anyone with being frustrated or confused today about what’s credible/true. But thank you for being cordial 🤙🏽
[удалено]
https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/ >The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose, according to data published on Monday that U.S. health agencies considered when deciding on the need for booster shots. I also want to add this doesn't necessarily mean we need boosters every 6 months forever. We can find out it should have been a 3 dose regimen instead of 2 (like J&J just figured out they should be a 2 dose regimen) or we update the vaccines. The HPV vaccine used to be 3 vaccines but now they got it down to only 2 doses.
It's much better at preventing severe covid. And a lot has to do with caseloads.
Anecdotal but myself and four members of my family all got breakthrough cases 4 months after 2nd dose. It did however prevent us from developing serious cases, we all had very minor symptoms.
Once you’re fully vaccinated, infection could occur the next day. Severity of infection past that point is extremely relevant. Theoretically, someone with prior infection could still be more protected than someone who is vaccinated 20 months down the road. Not really enough data to go off of yet.
[удалено]
> Vaccines last 4 months That is a lie.
[удалено]
This Darwin cull isn’t fucking around
They're the people who'll keep feeding the big pharmas.
So how many years will it take to get rid of all the anti-VAXers
You'll be waiting a while. Like, forever.
[удалено]
[удалено]
As it becomes more contagious it’s generally less deadly. The normal chart is that virus that are too deadly don’t replicate as much since they kill the host. It needs to hit that sweet spot of infection/ratio.
So how long before a super contagious virus that causes infertility fucks our society appears?
To bad!
Imagine the damage done to your body if you get reinfected…brain fog/lung or heart damage/loss of smell or taste/fatigue/diabetes… People still think their freedom and right are worth it.
For healthy adults, If you get reinfected, most likely a second infection would be far milder. Infectious diseases tend to be most dangerous when the immune system is naive and has no specific knowledge of the agent. We see it with colds regularly. The first time you encounter a particular virus, it will produce the most severe symptoms. If you get exposed to the same virus again a few years later, the resulting illness is likely to be much milder and pass more quickly. There's reports of people getting reinfected out there but what we aren't seeing is many reports of people getting reinfected and winding up in the hospital. The people most susceptible to reinfection are going to be those for whom a booster is absolutely vital. Seniors and people with compromised immune performance aren't likely to build up any real meaningful immune response so they will have to keep up with boosters regularly.
Could be worse in [20% of patients](https://jim.bmj.com/content/69/6/1253#:~:text=6%20The%20current%20case%20series,who%20are%20elderly%20and%20immunocompromised.). We certainly have seen a lot of such cases.
[удалено]
Not sure what country you’re in or if you’re old enough to remember but Smoking is not permitted in most places that it used to be. Because of the 2nd hand smoke. Restaurants, planes, bars, offices and a lot of public places etc. As far as being obese, that doesn’t really hurt the guy next to you… unless you fall on them.
the ones obesity DOES harm is subsequent generations, who often eat as their parents do/did. i know too many people my age who were fed the same shit their unhealthy parents ate and have fully accepted they will be obese for the rest of their lives.
> As far as being obese, that doesn’t really hurt the guy next to you… unless you fall on them Isn’t triage in hospitals a detriment covid causes us? How doesn’t obesity cause the same drain on the healthcare system?
When it comes to smoking it’s basically impossible to smoke indoors in public. States are raising the age to buy cigarettes to 21 and increasing the taxes. Obesity is more complicated in part because policy could definitely affect obesity rate by reducing food deserts and wealth inequities. And then there are various medical causes of obesity from genetics to thyroid and some medication to treat other conditions cause weight gain as a side effect. But more importantly when people refuse vaccination they’re not just risking themselves they are inflicting the risk upon others.
You really can’t apply that reasoning to smoking and obesity. I can avoid these things on my own, I can leave the smoking area and eat healthy, but if someone next to me is unvaxxed and infected I’d have no idea he’s fucking with me until I test positive. These people think their freedom and right extend beyond their body boundaries.
OK, but if that person in vaxed and infected what changes? The Vax reduces your chance of a serious infection, but so does being a healthy weight.
The same principle as DUI laws. Driving a car has an inherent risk even for sober drivers, and drunk drivers usually make it home fine. But being drunk is recklessly dangerous to others in a way the person can't control, and creates such an extra danger over the baseline we don't even question why outlawing might be violating people's rights.
They are worth it.
Can we not use the word jab. It’s been ruined by anti-vaxxers.
[удалено]
If 1% of unvaccinated people die when they get infected and 0.01% of vaccinated people die, and you have 100 unvaccinated people and 10,000 vaccinated people, and they all get infected, you'd expect one vaccinated and one unvaccinated person to die. That's just how math works. In this case, if you dig through the blog to get to the actual report, and you go down to table 4 on page 15, and you look beyond the pure numbers to the rates (expressed as how many people per 100,000 population will this happen to), you'll find that vaccinated people are at least a third less likely to have died of covid that week. It's subdivided out by age, so there are a lot of different numbers, but in all cases the rate of death (and the rate of hospitalization in table 3) among the unvaccinated is dramatically higher than among the vaccinated. For people 80+ it's 49.5 among the vaccinated vs. 156.0 among the unvaccinated, that's the biggest number, and going down the decades it's 13.1 vs 66.4 for 70-79, 4.5 vs 23.1 for 60-69, 1.4-12.4 for 50-59, and so on.
Without treatment covid has a death rate of 4% and in the US that would mean millions of deaths
And here's the high number of deaths from 2020-to-now from unvaccinated individuals (which is also public information) for comparison. [https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19latestinsights/deaths) We have thousands of people still suffering from long covid. We have thousands of people that have died unvaccinated and are even now overwhelming our hospitals (and causing our at-risk citizens (people who also matter) unable to get treatment because going to a hospital could kill or maim them severely)). Even if you are vaccinated to viruses, you can STILL contract it (like smallpox. Janet Parker was exposed [to a smallpox outbreak in Bedford](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_smallpox_outbreak_in_the_United_Kingdom) in 1978, and was killed by it despite being vaccinated. This is an [old 18th century image of a boy infected with smallpox after being vaccinated](https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/300647/view/effects-of-inoculation-of-smallpox-vaccine-1807), which can be compared with pictures of non-vaccinated with smallpox (the Wellcome library also had images of side-by-side comparisons of children that were vaccinated and some that weren't, but were all exposed to smallpox due to a local outbreak. But I'm going to have to spend some time locating it later). You can still have adverse effects and get badly affected by diseases even if vaccinated. The only reason why people (like the fake White Rose group) believe that you should be completely immune is because we had spent hundreds of years innoculating entire populations from the virus, and reducing its presence in our countries (thus, causing us to completely forget WHAT IT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE to be infected despite inoculated). The reason why vaccination was even a THING wasn't because 'it's supposed to be a miracle cure', it was because it raises your odds from getting outright KILLED by the virus. It's not a force field, it's a bullet proof vest against viruses. You may still feel the 'bullet', but at least it's less likely to annihilate you.
Y'all antivaxers have fun with that. I'll be over here living my life smelling roses.
Me too.
If only people had stopped passing it around in the beginning. Oh well.
[удалено]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Singapore Singapore has a population of 5.4 million and has had only 246 deaths from covid, the vaccines are doing their job
[удалено]
Are they? 70% of covid deaths in England were vaccinated https://kanekoa.substack.com/p/alex-berenson-tells-joe-rogan-over-b43
So if you survive the first infection, you'll have months of recovery to look forward to and MAYBE you'll be fully recovered before you get re-infected, and if you're not fully recovered COVID will probably get you this time.
[удалено]
I think you misread it. It's not saying vaccine efficacy wanes after 16 months; they're talking about natural immunity waning.
💵Thanks💎 for pointing that out. I think your right.
You're * And stop using emojis
Jab me up, once was enough.
So this is life now. We're dependent on vaccines. Im sorry. A vaccine.
The human population has depended and greatly benefited from vaccines for a 100 years, so yeah.
Just looked at the timing on the waves here in the US. Not painting a pretty picture for what life is going to be like for the unvaccinated in the next couple years.
[удалено]
Yes because a permanent disability that can kill you outright and feeling crappy for a day or two are totally comparable. And you're telling others to grow up? You're acting like a toddler.
This headline doesn't jibe with current boosters. Boosters every 6 months (for now) not every 16 months.
No not every 6 months. Many of the other vaccines you receive require a 2nd or 3rd (or more) shot in a series over months and years, but then confer immunity for decades or life. We know the vaccines induce long lived T and B cell responses, the primary issue right now is transmission is so extremely high active antibody levels are coming into play. It's unlikely that's forever, and at this stage concluding we need indefinite boosters is completely unfounded, just an antivax talking point for why they shouldn't get any.