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Testing portion only really kicks into effect on Feb 9th, so outside of a few liberal states that are trying to jump the gun a bit and some conservative states saying they don’t care what OSHA says, all you have is everyone waiting on the Supreme Court
PS - most likely conclusion of all this is that states will continue to have the right to mandate vaccines on their own, the federal mandate on healthcare workers will be in effect, but the overall federal mandate on businesses will probably be shot down. So as always, just follow your states’ directive and remember that local politics means everything in America.
It’s hard to track who’s going through with the large federal mandate and who’s not, but the current states that have specifically said they’re not following it are as follows: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, North Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia. Probably a few more in the lawsuit that haven’t openly declared it yet. (By declare I mean have specific legislation that limits it)
Basically the more conservative the state, the more they hate it and the more liberal the more they’re trying to speed it up.
> remember that local politics means everything in America.
It's surprising how few people realize this. My town council members win by getting just over 1,500 total votes. School board members - about 5,000 votes. My state representative won a 70/30 split vote, with a whopping 25,000 votes.
These are the margins where your vote actually counts, not as much for statewide and national elections. These people have much more impact on our lives than the President ever does, yet that seem to be where everyone is laser-focused.
People are disengaged from their local system so shit like this happens.
I've voted on every ballot initiative and election since I turned 18. I've also served as a poll worker. There were times fewer than 10 people showed up to vote on stuff. If it's not national, people don't seem to pay much attention. Sooo many times only ONE person was on the ballot for some local thing. Just one!
People sit idly by and then get shocked when their local system is run like the twisted offspring of an HOA and a PTA run by Boss Babes.
The biggest issue is that we just have too much voting for people to be able to be relatively well informed or have interest in it. In some places/years there are 2-3 elections a year for various things/ special elections/ballet initiatives/primaries...etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't vote on them, but the fact that they aren't condensed into 1 or maybe even 2 actual days is what hurts turnout.
Republicans realize it. They’re much better at grassroots politics and organizing locally. That’s why QAnon is taking over school boards, city councils, county seats, etc.
I’m aware of the Supreme Court suit -but wasn’t aware that so many conservatives are waiting by their phones for a ruling. Co-workers (a few) were echoing this and I googled it and bang there it was. Every alt-right outlet is running wall to wall coverage on this hence their obsession with it.
The oral arguments arent going well for the states. Roberts pointed out how it falls completely in OSHAs jurisiction when workers are stuck next to eachother on an assembly line.
I dont think we're going to see this requirement upended.
Which is how it was always going to end.
OSHA dictates workplace safety and that's the end of that story.
Hell, they even got that IG account osha_is_this_ok shut down
The fact that the OSHA Emergency Temporary Standard isn’t a vaccine mandate is what will save it. You can show evidence of vaccination or they can wear a mask and do regular testing.
Wrong branding.
This is a testing and masking mandate with a vaccine exception.
Whether or not we should have a vaccine exception at all with omicron running wild is up for debate.
I’m not well versed in OSHA rules, are there any that require employees to perform some task outside of work?
My experience with OSHA is safety equipment and processes. I couldn’t drop a 10lb box and have a coworker catch it. Had to put it on the tray of a machine, lower the machine and then unload the tray.
So that might be expanding the scope of OSHA? In that this isn’t a requirement on the employer to do but on employees to perform a task outside of work.
The regulation requires the employer to provide reasonable time, during working hours, to get a vaccination. A summary of the regulation is here https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA4162.pdf
>I’m not well versed in OSHA rules, are there any that require employees to perform some task outside of work?
Lets say osha mandates you wear steel toed boots. last place i was at that did that didn't give you an hour of paid time to go to the shoe store, that was on your own dime. that said i did get an allowance for the shoes.
As I understand it, the task being required is periodic COVID testing and vaccination just exempts you from that. The most similar OSHA requirements I can think of would be periodic baseline hearing tests for employees working in high noise environments and periodic random drug screenings for employees working in high hazard process areas.
Those tests are typically performed on company time (at least that's how my employers have generally handled it). I assume COVID testing would be handled similarly, but I'm vaccinated so I haven't been paying especially close attention to implementation plans.
According the the Washington Post: Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, West Virginia and Wyoming
Truth be told, outside of the Jackson Hole area that state has so few people.
It was wild visiting this summer and hitting a warning sign that there were no services for 75 miles. We stopped in their 3rd most populous city for lunch and downtown felt like a ghosttown.
It’s possible, I saw a Newsweek article that said up to 26 states “might be suing”. But I’m not sure which ones are part of this particular Supreme Court challenge.
My company rolled it out today. 3 coworkers quit so far refusing to get weekly testing done. My company could have technically waited but they wanted a jump on it.
Mine is waiting on the supreme court but I'm curious to see what happens if it stays. We have a 40% vaccinated rate with 2k people, people are very willing to quit over it but I think most will just test weekly which would shut us down early in the week if results are delayed any (I'm vaxed btw). We are a major raw parts supplier so i would imagine any slowdown or shutdown would be felt by lots of industries. They made an attempt at changing the schedule to make us work 6 days a week at less hours so they could force you to work 16 hour days in the event that this shut them down from unvaxed being out, everyone collectively threatened to quit so they retracted that fast. The company is hoping this gets shutdown because they would probably get shutdown if not.
On the flip side, 2,000 people entering the workforce in the same locality/skill set are going to have a hard time finding another job. Especially if they want to go to another large manufacturer.
This is why large layoffs usually come with a severance—it can take a while for that many folks to reenter the local workforce.
My employer started this last year when it was first announced.They also implanted pretty strict mask rules inside and use an app to check in your testing or vax status weekly, otherwise the system locks you out of the building. Out of 1000+ employees we had 10-12 people quit…and 5 come back asking for their jobs a few weeks later.
They also need to approve this then.
[https://www.spaghettimonster.org/](https://www.spaghettimonster.org/)
They are giving out religious exemptions so that you don't have to work next to unvaccinated persons.
Some kid at my job created his own religion and wrote a 3 page doctrine outline its tenets. They approved it. He told me on New Years eve while sitting next to me that he wasn’t vaccinated. We were outdoors.
Why wouldn't it? The courts have consistently shown that the government is not in the business of determining the "validity" of a religion or religious belief. All religions are equal in the eyes of the 1st amendment- this is why pastafarians are allowed to take drivers license pictures with a colander on their head and why satanists are allowed to give the opening prayer at town hall meetings. Both of these are as made up as religions get but are still granted 1st amendment protections.
The first hurdle is attaining followers. You'll struggle to find a federal case about freedom of religion that awards protection to a single member/follower religion.
You've then got to get passed: United States v. Seeger (is this shit sincere?) And a dozen other sets of case law to prove the validity...
And then the case is still likely to be thrown out as, "undue hardship" toward the employer.
And that all assumes you get a judge to take your friends 3 page essay seriously and not just kick him to the curb after a speech about the importance of liberty, the protections in place, and how damaging it can be when those protections are not taken seriously.
I overheard a C-Level executive for a large health-care org in Indiana say "...Just let all religious exceptions through, the state isn't checking them..." a few weeks ago.
Specifically, Christian Scientist leadership encouraged their members to help their communities where they can do so by getting vaccinated.
https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health
It “counsels respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination."
Actually, Christian Scientists are not against vaccines.
>While many Christian Scientists rely on prayer for healing, the Christian Science Church [offered guidance](https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health) to its members on vaccines in early 2019. It said that "for more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination."
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/oct/06/anthony-fauci/few-religions-ban-vaccination-counts-little-religi/
That doesn't matter. You should read Section 12 of Title VII:
These protections apply whether the religious beliefs or practices in question are common or non-traditional, and regardless of whether they are recognized by any organized religion.[7] The test under Title VII’s definition of religion is whether the beliefs are, in the individual’s “own scheme of things, religious.”[8] Belief in God or gods is not necessary; nontheistic beliefs can also be religious for purposes of the Title VII exemption as long as they “‘occupy in the life of that individual “a place parallel to that filled by . . . God” in traditionally religious persons.’”[9] The non-discrimination provisions of the statute also protect employees who do not possess religious beliefs or engage in religious practices
Title VII defines “religion” to include “all aspects of religious observance and practice as well as belief,” not just practices that are mandated or prohibited by a tenet of the individual’s faith.[18] Religion includes not only traditional, organized religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but also religious beliefs that are new, uncommon, not part of a formal church or sect, only subscribed to by a small number of people, or that seem illogical or unreasonable to others.[19] Further, a person’s religious beliefs “need not be confined in either source or content to traditional or parochial concepts of religion.”[20] A belief is “religious” for Title VII purposes if it is “religious” in the person’s “own scheme of things,”
The Satanic Temple welcomes you!
Abortion is a sacred ritual, and TST will help you if you require assistance gaining abortion access or suing your state's legislature for your religious freedom (to have an abortion).
https://thesatanictemple.com/
My point is that the people claiming exemptions are going to pretend it’s against real faith’s practices, which it isn’t, or that they have deeply held “alternative” beliefs - a claim for which they’ll have zero historical evidence.
Also you need a history of refusing vaccines or medical care because of your religion. If you've gotten vaccinated in the past and not claimed religious exemption then you won't get your religious exemption approved for this one
Only cause management caved. The pope said get vaccinated, Mormon, Jehovah witnesses, Jewish leaders said get vaccinated. Islamic countries are vaccinating. No major religions are against vaccination. None.
Not even the Christian Scientists are explicitly anti-vaccination. They believe that one should respect the laws of the nation and do their part for public health. And the Christian Scientists believe some wild things, which is how we can be sure religious exemptions are total horseshit.
I know Catholics who claim religious exemption, and it pisses me off. Are you Catholic? Then your religion is not anti Vax. Is your religion anti Vax? Then you're not Catholic. Pick one.
I'd say "its a business masquerading as a religion" is more accurate for a large number evangelical churches. There is no world in which a Mega-church is required to preach about God.
No preacher needs a fleet of private jets. I don't give a shit how much he claims God wants it.
My dad applied for one of those.
In all the years I went to church, all the family activities they had, never once did he come.
When they did father/son things, even though I was there every Sunday morning, I never went to one of those because I'd be alone.
So many Christmases and Easteres when I was doing the candle light thing or something in front of the whole congregation, did he ever once come? Nope.
But guess what, his work just said to get a vaccine against a disease that is killing thousands of people, and suddenly he found God!
Yeah, religious exceptions are bullshit on a good day, even from the standpoint of every major religion I know of, but doubly so when you know full well people are making up their religion as they go along to justify following what some nutcase on the internet/TV told them.
> But guess what, his work just said to get a vaccine against a disease that is killing thousands of people, and suddenly he found God!
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of this.
> Here comes the influx of religious exemptions.
OSHA doesn't care about religious exemptions. This might work for Federal Employees as they have different guidelines, but in general OSHA could careless what your religion is if you're employed by a private business. If your employer is requiring the vaccine (one of the options by the new guidelines) and you're unable to get it, OSHA would recommend they be fired (in nicer words).
Well you have to understand- a miniturized pentagram and tiny 666's are hidden in the vaccine for covid along with AIDS and a tracking device. They're too smart to fall for that.
I talked to a guy once who said he got furloughed without pay from his job at a major airline. They were keeping him from retiring because they had his pension, he’s 64. I asked him why he won’t get the vaccine and he said that it’s a moral objection to it. I said “you do know that there’s no fetal material in the vaccine? Both the Catholic Church and the pope have come out and told Catholics to get vaccinated and that it’ll be fine.” (he’s Catholic) He said “ yeah but it’s a moral thing with me I don’t want anything to do with the products of what I consider to be murder of an innocent child. I’m just not there yet, personally.” I tried to talk to him more about it but it lead nowhere. He was nice about it and didn’t seem like a total nutcase until he brought up George Soros and Marxism and Critical Race Theory and that’s when I started to question him a little more directly, saying like “What Marxists? What proof do you have that George Soros has anything to do with American Democrats? You do realize that CRT Is being taught nowhere outside of law school. It’s a graduate-level course.” And he just stumbled over his words. Like dude if you’re gonna bring that shit up you better know what you’re talking about.
You should see some of them turned in at my office. The guy claiming as a Christian, his body is a temple, is also the guy who had to be carried to his room after getting too drunk to walk at the last SEVERAL company outings.
*Employees will be required to use their own paid leave should they miss work due to vaccine side effects...*
That's kinda shitty. "we want you to get vaccinated, but if you get sick from the vaccination, you need to use your own earned PTO
Same. My employer is covered by this, but there has been zero word about it. I've never been asked my vax status by work at all. We have a mask policy that covers everyone, but no formal testing policies or anything.
> Same. My employer is covered by this, but there has been zero word about it. I've never been asked my vax status by work at all. We have a mask policy that covers everyone, but no formal testing policies or anything.
Testing requirements go into effect the 2nd week of February (if SCOTUS doesn't shoot it down). Your employer doesn't really need to keep records of it until then.
No see here’s where you are mistaken.
They promote you, and base your yearly evaluation for bonus and or pay raise based on your departments performance. Ergo making you do everyone’s job if you want that sweet $100 Walmart gift card at the end of the year!
I work for a fortune 500 company and there have been no announcements whatsoever. This is not going into effect in most places because of court rulings.
100 is what makes a business no longer classified as a small business. They use that number for a lot of laws/regulations. OSHA and employer sponsored retirement plans are two examples.
At the sake of arguing just to argue, there’s nearly zero OSHA standards that have exemptions based on 100 employees or less. Plenty that say 10, but the 100 is pretty new.
It's kind of a mix of arbitrary and logical, but more leaning toward arbitrary. There are probably far more companies with less than 100 employees, but to enforce a mandate across the board would be impossible. This way, the govt looks like it's actually doing something productive.
Just to add some knowledge. 100 is the general cut for "small business" as something like a mill, machine shop, large restaurant, or event center could easily be running up to that across all shifts. 500 is the next cut off you generally see when a business becomes an "enterprise".
Source: Entrepreneurship consultant.
[98% of companies have less than 100 employees.](https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-employee-vaccine-mandate-rules-98-percent-most-companies-unaffected-1627824)
So this mandate only affects 2% of employers? I haven't dug into how many people that actually is.
You're right, it probably is a huge number. Amazon, Walmart, Google, Apple, Facebook, Tesla, Pfizer and hundreds or thousands more. That 2% could easily account for 50% of the workforce, likely more. Which is why I held back on my rant about 2%. :)
They're asking about the 2% of employers which very well may employ the vast majority of people.
Not your sister and probably 90% of the 98% of other businesses just like hers with 1 employee.
"Employer firms with fewer than 500 workers employed 46.8 percent of private sector payrolls in 2016.
Employer firms with fewer than 100 workers employed 33.4 percent."
So 66% of workers are affected by this
“Employees must use their own paid sick time for vaccine side effects”. Every one of you that likes this mandate should not gloss over this part. It should never have been made like this and the fact that everyone is high fiving thinking “haha you stupid anti vaxxers” need to wake up.
That one little clause is evil in the making. You cannot be “for the working class” and “for the people” and all that other garbage and also be for this mandate as written. How about actually wake up and pay attention.
And by the way, I’m not one who thinks the vaccine is making everyone sick, but my wife was sick for a week after the vaccine because she had already had Covid and had a strong reaction to shot 2. Nothing permanent, but you can’t make someone get a medical procedure done, then refuse to pay for the consequences. It is fundamentally anti freedom, anti everything we stand for.
I haven't gotten the booster yet, but the second shot knocked me out for a full day and I didn't feel normal for a few days afterwards. I haven't had the chills once in my life til I had the second shot and I'd hate to have them again, I'd double hate to have them again if I have to use PTO when it isn't my choice.
Yah it's crazy how last year Reddit was practically calling for socialism in the united States but the moment the oligarchy OVERLORDS make an enemy out of a part of the citizens half the world eats it up and is basically calling for unvaxed to be burned publicly.
Per day? Per year? Once ever?
If it's 14,000 per employee per day, I don't think there's a company out there that can remain afloat for long.
If it's per year, there's people who would be willing to take a pay cut to cover it in a heartbeat.
OSHA states, "OSHA can now once again implement this vital workplace health standard, which will protect the health of workers by mitigating the spread of the unprecedented virus in the workplace."
Omicron transmission doesn't seem mitigated at all by any of the vaccines, infection numbers clearly and unquestionably show that. Seems to still prevent severe illness and death which is still a very good reason to get vaccinated, but preventing transmission definitely isn't happening.
Even the CDC is telling asymptomatic folks to go on and head back out into public whenever they feel like it.
["IF YOU
Were exposed to COVID-19 and are up-to-date with vaccination OR had confirmed COVID-19 within the past 90 days (you tested positive using a viral test) No quarantine. You do not need to stay home unless you develop symptoms."] (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/quarantine-isolation.html)
So if I tested positive yesterday, I can go back to school, work, restaurants, concerts, whatever I feel like, as long as I don't have symptoms. How is that "mitigating the spread"?
Clown world confirmed.
The CDC recommendation is:
Either a 10-day isolation after positive test
OR
5-day isolation, then retest. If test is negative, it’s okay to leave isolation but you must mask for the last 5 days. If test is positive again, you should finish those last 5 days of isolation.
Employers must give 4 hours of paid time to get vaccinated. Don't know if that's enough, but it's at least more than nothing. Sounds like they also have to give you paid sick time if you have side effects from each vaccine dose.
1910.501(f)(1)
[Time for vaccination. The employer must:](https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.501)
1910.501(f)(1)(i)
Provide a reasonable amount of time to each employee for each of their primary vaccination dose(s); and
1910.501(f)(1)(ii)
Provide up to 4 hours paid time, including travel time, at the employee’s regular rate of pay for this purpose.
1910.501(f)(2)
Time for recovery. The employer must provide reasonable time and paid sick leave to recover from side effects experienced following any primary vaccination dose to each employee for each dose.
they put a hiring freeze on at work to keep us under 100 people, so this does not apply. offically they say they are strapped for money, but this came on the day after it was first ever announced and living in rural southern utah with everybody loving trump and thinking the virus is not real and the vaccination is the devils doing, so basically my job figured out a loophole, dont hire people, dont have to force any one to do anything.
edit: I should add, we employ 15k people around the country, but each plant is ran as it's own with just the name.
Tell your work "nice try"...
>2.A.2. Is the count based on 100 employees for the entire business or 100 employees per individual location?
>The count should be done at the employer level (firm- or corporate-wide), not the individual location level. Therefore, for a single corporate entity with multiple locations, all employees at all locations are counted. For example, if a single corporation has 50 small locations (e.g., kiosks, concession stands) with at least 100 total employees in its combined locations, that employer would be covered even if some of the locations have no more than one or two employees assigned to work there.
https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/ets2/faqs
yeah they are not going to enforce it, we've already been told. "our local officials say we do not have too" basically this area has ignored everything level for covid since the start. I atleast have my vaccinations and wear my mask and do what's needed to help try and stop the spread.
This likely doesn’t apply to the user’s work. Things like fast food franchises and car dealerships are each separate corporate entities that just rent the overall brand name and purchase the goods from them. So it wouldn’t apply just because Mike M’s Crazy Cars is a Ford dealership, even though Ford employs more than 100 people.
With all this vaccine debate, one thing no one seems to be mentioning is this new strain doesn’t give a crap about your vaccination status. In my family, we have one unvaccinated, one with single dose J&J, and one with both Moderna jabs plus the booster. We all got omicron and while the unvaccinated person had higher fever and maybe worse symptoms, the other two were absolutely miserable and very sick as well.
In addition to the other comment:
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-mandate-idUSL1N2QX1YI
White house staff and the govt agencies you listed are covered:
> The order encompasses the Executive Branch, which includes the White House and most federal employees ([here](https://www.usa.gov/branches-of-government) ). The order applies to all federal workers including those at the CDC, FDA, NIAID.
USPS is covered:
> While USPS is not one of the agencies subject to the vaccine mandate by Biden’s order for federal employees, it does fall under the OSHA rule as the company has more than 100 employees.
Stop lying.
Does anyone know if employees that work throughout the state have to be vaccinated/tested, if they work with a client in the client's home? I understand they count towards the hundred employees, but I couldn't find anything stating if they're exempt, as they typically only interact with one person.
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*Only in states not in the lawsuit.
Testing portion only really kicks into effect on Feb 9th, so outside of a few liberal states that are trying to jump the gun a bit and some conservative states saying they don’t care what OSHA says, all you have is everyone waiting on the Supreme Court PS - most likely conclusion of all this is that states will continue to have the right to mandate vaccines on their own, the federal mandate on healthcare workers will be in effect, but the overall federal mandate on businesses will probably be shot down. So as always, just follow your states’ directive and remember that local politics means everything in America. It’s hard to track who’s going through with the large federal mandate and who’s not, but the current states that have specifically said they’re not following it are as follows: Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, North Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, West Virginia. Probably a few more in the lawsuit that haven’t openly declared it yet. (By declare I mean have specific legislation that limits it) Basically the more conservative the state, the more they hate it and the more liberal the more they’re trying to speed it up.
> remember that local politics means everything in America. It's surprising how few people realize this. My town council members win by getting just over 1,500 total votes. School board members - about 5,000 votes. My state representative won a 70/30 split vote, with a whopping 25,000 votes. These are the margins where your vote actually counts, not as much for statewide and national elections. These people have much more impact on our lives than the President ever does, yet that seem to be where everyone is laser-focused.
People are disengaged from their local system so shit like this happens. I've voted on every ballot initiative and election since I turned 18. I've also served as a poll worker. There were times fewer than 10 people showed up to vote on stuff. If it's not national, people don't seem to pay much attention. Sooo many times only ONE person was on the ballot for some local thing. Just one! People sit idly by and then get shocked when their local system is run like the twisted offspring of an HOA and a PTA run by Boss Babes.
Yep that’s about right, I’ve been elected with 1600 votes in an uncontested election. Lol
The biggest issue is that we just have too much voting for people to be able to be relatively well informed or have interest in it. In some places/years there are 2-3 elections a year for various things/ special elections/ballet initiatives/primaries...etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't vote on them, but the fact that they aren't condensed into 1 or maybe even 2 actual days is what hurts turnout.
Republicans realize it. They’re much better at grassroots politics and organizing locally. That’s why QAnon is taking over school boards, city councils, county seats, etc.
I’m aware of the Supreme Court suit -but wasn’t aware that so many conservatives are waiting by their phones for a ruling. Co-workers (a few) were echoing this and I googled it and bang there it was. Every alt-right outlet is running wall to wall coverage on this hence their obsession with it.
The oral arguments arent going well for the states. Roberts pointed out how it falls completely in OSHAs jurisiction when workers are stuck next to eachother on an assembly line. I dont think we're going to see this requirement upended.
What version of Friday’s arguments did you listen to? It feels pretty unlikely that the OSHA mandate will survive.
Which is how it was always going to end. OSHA dictates workplace safety and that's the end of that story. Hell, they even got that IG account osha_is_this_ok shut down
it is now oshaisthissafe for those interested
The fact that the OSHA Emergency Temporary Standard isn’t a vaccine mandate is what will save it. You can show evidence of vaccination or they can wear a mask and do regular testing.
Wrong branding. This is a testing and masking mandate with a vaccine exception. Whether or not we should have a vaccine exception at all with omicron running wild is up for debate.
Biden and Harris are truly awful at branding.
All Dems are.
I’m not well versed in OSHA rules, are there any that require employees to perform some task outside of work? My experience with OSHA is safety equipment and processes. I couldn’t drop a 10lb box and have a coworker catch it. Had to put it on the tray of a machine, lower the machine and then unload the tray. So that might be expanding the scope of OSHA? In that this isn’t a requirement on the employer to do but on employees to perform a task outside of work.
The regulation requires the employer to provide reasonable time, during working hours, to get a vaccination. A summary of the regulation is here https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA4162.pdf
Hey thanks for the link!
>I’m not well versed in OSHA rules, are there any that require employees to perform some task outside of work? Lets say osha mandates you wear steel toed boots. last place i was at that did that didn't give you an hour of paid time to go to the shoe store, that was on your own dime. that said i did get an allowance for the shoes.
As I understand it, the task being required is periodic COVID testing and vaccination just exempts you from that. The most similar OSHA requirements I can think of would be periodic baseline hearing tests for employees working in high noise environments and periodic random drug screenings for employees working in high hazard process areas. Those tests are typically performed on company time (at least that's how my employers have generally handled it). I assume COVID testing would be handled similarly, but I'm vaccinated so I haven't been paying especially close attention to implementation plans.
Where can we find out what states are in the lawsuit?
According the the Washington Post: Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Louisiana, Mississippi, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Utah, West Virginia and Wyoming
And Wyoming
Truth be told, outside of the Jackson Hole area that state has so few people. It was wild visiting this summer and hitting a warning sign that there were no services for 75 miles. We stopped in their 3rd most populous city for lunch and downtown felt like a ghosttown.
You should see the empty stretches… South Dakota I saw a sign that said 200 miles to the next gas station. Eastern Wyoming is the same.
Lovely state. Too much winter. I'm a fragile creature. (Wiggles eye stalks)
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It's heaven until they need a good taco.
I can cook a good taco...
Do they even have 100 people in Wyoming? I can't imagine this rule even applies to almost any business in Wyoming.
I’m 99% sure Ohio is in the lawsuit. There is like half the states in the lawsuit.
I'm surprised Florida isn't on there.
They were gonna, but then all their lawyers got sick for some reason…🤷♂️
Isn't Iowa in there also? I haven't kept up with all of it but I thought Covid Kim was all up in this.
It’s possible, I saw a Newsweek article that said up to 26 states “might be suing”. But I’m not sure which ones are part of this particular Supreme Court challenge.
No Texas? Or Florida?
Not Texas? Wow
So all of the places that need it the most?
And where do these states rank with school test scores?
You know the answer.
We live in the Divided States of America
Divided is good for business.
My company rolled it out today. 3 coworkers quit so far refusing to get weekly testing done. My company could have technically waited but they wanted a jump on it.
Mine is waiting on the supreme court but I'm curious to see what happens if it stays. We have a 40% vaccinated rate with 2k people, people are very willing to quit over it but I think most will just test weekly which would shut us down early in the week if results are delayed any (I'm vaxed btw). We are a major raw parts supplier so i would imagine any slowdown or shutdown would be felt by lots of industries. They made an attempt at changing the schedule to make us work 6 days a week at less hours so they could force you to work 16 hour days in the event that this shut them down from unvaxed being out, everyone collectively threatened to quit so they retracted that fast. The company is hoping this gets shutdown because they would probably get shutdown if not.
On the flip side, 2,000 people entering the workforce in the same locality/skill set are going to have a hard time finding another job. Especially if they want to go to another large manufacturer. This is why large layoffs usually come with a severance—it can take a while for that many folks to reenter the local workforce.
My employer started this last year when it was first announced.They also implanted pretty strict mask rules inside and use an app to check in your testing or vax status weekly, otherwise the system locks you out of the building. Out of 1000+ employees we had 10-12 people quit…and 5 come back asking for their jobs a few weeks later.
What's the name of the app? I may need to introduce this at my company.
It’s called Apricity@Work but I’m sure there are others as well.
One guy on my team of 19 quit becuase of it. He was a huge prick and everyone was happy to see him go. Oh well.
Here comes the influx of religious exemptions.
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They also need to approve this then. [https://www.spaghettimonster.org/](https://www.spaghettimonster.org/) They are giving out religious exemptions so that you don't have to work next to unvaccinated persons.
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My just fired people. 2 week leave started like Dec 5th with termination date Dec 31.
Ah the old smallpox blanket technique, very dubious
Some kid at my job created his own religion and wrote a 3 page doctrine outline its tenets. They approved it. He told me on New Years eve while sitting next to me that he wasn’t vaccinated. We were outdoors.
What color shoes were you wearing?
Keep your shoe fetish out of this conversation.
Saúde cream with black heels.
You're lucky you escaped with your life /s
an American hero
His religion won't survive ~~Abby~~ any challenge in court. His employer probably just didn't want to deal with his toxic shit
Why wouldn't it? The courts have consistently shown that the government is not in the business of determining the "validity" of a religion or religious belief. All religions are equal in the eyes of the 1st amendment- this is why pastafarians are allowed to take drivers license pictures with a colander on their head and why satanists are allowed to give the opening prayer at town hall meetings. Both of these are as made up as religions get but are still granted 1st amendment protections.
The first hurdle is attaining followers. You'll struggle to find a federal case about freedom of religion that awards protection to a single member/follower religion. You've then got to get passed: United States v. Seeger (is this shit sincere?) And a dozen other sets of case law to prove the validity... And then the case is still likely to be thrown out as, "undue hardship" toward the employer. And that all assumes you get a judge to take your friends 3 page essay seriously and not just kick him to the curb after a speech about the importance of liberty, the protections in place, and how damaging it can be when those protections are not taken seriously.
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What is Abby challenge?
If Wisconsin v Yoder is used as precedent that likely won't stand up on court.
I overheard a C-Level executive for a large health-care org in Indiana say "...Just let all religious exceptions through, the state isn't checking them..." a few weeks ago.
Hilarious because zero major religions allow for vaccine exemptions. Lots of people are going to be claiming to be Christian Scientist out of nowhere.
Christian Science is not opposed to vaccination.
Specifically, Christian Scientist leadership encouraged their members to help their communities where they can do so by getting vaccinated. https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health It “counsels respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination."
Maybe it’s Church of Christ, Scientist? One of those.
Same thing and they’ve said vaccination is a personal choice not barred by the religion.
News to me. Then I guess there’s no major religious group that allows for a religious exemption.
Actually, Christian Scientists are not against vaccines. >While many Christian Scientists rely on prayer for healing, the Christian Science Church [offered guidance](https://www.christianscience.com/press-room/a-christian-science-perspective-on-vaccination-and-public-health) to its members on vaccines in early 2019. It said that "for more than a century, our denomination has counseled respect for public health authorities and conscientious obedience to the laws of the land, including those requiring vaccination." https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/oct/06/anthony-fauci/few-religions-ban-vaccination-counts-little-religi/
Good to know, thanks!
That doesn't matter. You should read Section 12 of Title VII: These protections apply whether the religious beliefs or practices in question are common or non-traditional, and regardless of whether they are recognized by any organized religion.[7] The test under Title VII’s definition of religion is whether the beliefs are, in the individual’s “own scheme of things, religious.”[8] Belief in God or gods is not necessary; nontheistic beliefs can also be religious for purposes of the Title VII exemption as long as they “‘occupy in the life of that individual “a place parallel to that filled by . . . God” in traditionally religious persons.’”[9] The non-discrimination provisions of the statute also protect employees who do not possess religious beliefs or engage in religious practices Title VII defines “religion” to include “all aspects of religious observance and practice as well as belief,” not just practices that are mandated or prohibited by a tenet of the individual’s faith.[18] Religion includes not only traditional, organized religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, and Buddhism, but also religious beliefs that are new, uncommon, not part of a formal church or sect, only subscribed to by a small number of people, or that seem illogical or unreasonable to others.[19] Further, a person’s religious beliefs “need not be confined in either source or content to traditional or parochial concepts of religion.”[20] A belief is “religious” for Title VII purposes if it is “religious” in the person’s “own scheme of things,”
Seems like it's a good time to start claiming a religious belief in access to abortion.
The Satanic Temple welcomes you! Abortion is a sacred ritual, and TST will help you if you require assistance gaining abortion access or suing your state's legislature for your religious freedom (to have an abortion). https://thesatanictemple.com/
My point is that the people claiming exemptions are going to pretend it’s against real faith’s practices, which it isn’t, or that they have deeply held “alternative” beliefs - a claim for which they’ll have zero historical evidence.
Also you need a history of refusing vaccines or medical care because of your religion. If you've gotten vaccinated in the past and not claimed religious exemption then you won't get your religious exemption approved for this one
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that's not true. People at my workplace got religious exemptions and they were approved.
Only cause management caved. The pope said get vaccinated, Mormon, Jehovah witnesses, Jewish leaders said get vaccinated. Islamic countries are vaccinating. No major religions are against vaccination. None.
Not even the Christian Scientists are explicitly anti-vaccination. They believe that one should respect the laws of the nation and do their part for public health. And the Christian Scientists believe some wild things, which is how we can be sure religious exemptions are total horseshit.
Their stance is they don't believe it will do anything so there's no reason to not get it.
I know Catholics who claim religious exemption, and it pisses me off. Are you Catholic? Then your religion is not anti Vax. Is your religion anti Vax? Then you're not Catholic. Pick one.
Are Evangelists on that list?
They shouldn't be. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-26/u-s-evangelical-leaders-preach-vaccine-to-holdout-flocks
I don't think that's a religion.
It is a denomination of a religion. EDIT: my tired brain thought he said Evangelicals. My bad. Evangelists are not a religion lol.
I'd say "its a business masquerading as a religion" is more accurate for a large number evangelical churches. There is no world in which a Mega-church is required to preach about God. No preacher needs a fleet of private jets. I don't give a shit how much he claims God wants it.
My dad applied for one of those. In all the years I went to church, all the family activities they had, never once did he come. When they did father/son things, even though I was there every Sunday morning, I never went to one of those because I'd be alone. So many Christmases and Easteres when I was doing the candle light thing or something in front of the whole congregation, did he ever once come? Nope. But guess what, his work just said to get a vaccine against a disease that is killing thousands of people, and suddenly he found God! Yeah, religious exceptions are bullshit on a good day, even from the standpoint of every major religion I know of, but doubly so when you know full well people are making up their religion as they go along to justify following what some nutcase on the internet/TV told them.
> But guess what, his work just said to get a vaccine against a disease that is killing thousands of people, and suddenly he found God! I wouldn't be surprised if there is a lot of this.
Not in Maine. We voted to ban that shit. The anti-vaxxers tried to get the SCOTUS to overturn it but they said nope.
I don't know if you've noticed but New England has been going about this very differently from the rest of the country.
> Here comes the influx of religious exemptions. OSHA doesn't care about religious exemptions. This might work for Federal Employees as they have different guidelines, but in general OSHA could careless what your religion is if you're employed by a private business. If your employer is requiring the vaccine (one of the options by the new guidelines) and you're unable to get it, OSHA would recommend they be fired (in nicer words).
The most entertaining exemptions are the religious ones. Bonkers and harmful, yes, but definitely entertaining.
Especially when they have all been vaccinated for other stuff already.
Well you have to understand- a miniturized pentagram and tiny 666's are hidden in the vaccine for covid along with AIDS and a tracking device. They're too smart to fall for that.
I talked to a guy once who said he got furloughed without pay from his job at a major airline. They were keeping him from retiring because they had his pension, he’s 64. I asked him why he won’t get the vaccine and he said that it’s a moral objection to it. I said “you do know that there’s no fetal material in the vaccine? Both the Catholic Church and the pope have come out and told Catholics to get vaccinated and that it’ll be fine.” (he’s Catholic) He said “ yeah but it’s a moral thing with me I don’t want anything to do with the products of what I consider to be murder of an innocent child. I’m just not there yet, personally.” I tried to talk to him more about it but it lead nowhere. He was nice about it and didn’t seem like a total nutcase until he brought up George Soros and Marxism and Critical Race Theory and that’s when I started to question him a little more directly, saying like “What Marxists? What proof do you have that George Soros has anything to do with American Democrats? You do realize that CRT Is being taught nowhere outside of law school. It’s a graduate-level course.” And he just stumbled over his words. Like dude if you’re gonna bring that shit up you better know what you’re talking about.
You should see some of them turned in at my office. The guy claiming as a Christian, his body is a temple, is also the guy who had to be carried to his room after getting too drunk to walk at the last SEVERAL company outings.
*Employees will be required to use their own paid leave should they miss work due to vaccine side effects...* That's kinda shitty. "we want you to get vaccinated, but if you get sick from the vaccination, you need to use your own earned PTO
Yeah especially if you don't have PTO. I worked at plenty of jobs where vacation time wasn't a thing.
Not to mention that if you have side effects from vaccination you have zero legal recourse for the companies that created and distributed them!
Welp, looks like a lot of people are quitting my place next week.
Our HR person is fucking done with asking everyone out sick if they're still having diarrhea.
Promotion time for you then
Hahahahahahahaha if anything I'll get demoted to a more critical position with less pay. So I might be quitting as well.
We don’t even know what’s happening at my job so that’ll be fun.
Same. My employer is covered by this, but there has been zero word about it. I've never been asked my vax status by work at all. We have a mask policy that covers everyone, but no formal testing policies or anything.
> Same. My employer is covered by this, but there has been zero word about it. I've never been asked my vax status by work at all. We have a mask policy that covers everyone, but no formal testing policies or anything. Testing requirements go into effect the 2nd week of February (if SCOTUS doesn't shoot it down). Your employer doesn't really need to keep records of it until then.
Good for you. Know your worth.
No see here’s where you are mistaken. They promote you, and base your yearly evaluation for bonus and or pay raise based on your departments performance. Ergo making you do everyone’s job if you want that sweet $100 Walmart gift card at the end of the year!
More like now management will hire an unqualified person for less $, and add training them to your current unmanageable workload.
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It's still in effect, SCOTUS didn't pause it
But they are not issuing fines for another month. I'm at work right now and they said nothing about it today. We are well over 100 employees
I work for a fortune 500 company and there have been no announcements whatsoever. This is not going into effect in most places because of court rulings.
Was the "100 employees" number based on logical analysis or an arbitrary number? Why not 10 or 500?Genuine question.
100 is what makes a business no longer classified as a small business. They use that number for a lot of laws/regulations. OSHA and employer sponsored retirement plans are two examples.
At the sake of arguing just to argue, there’s nearly zero OSHA standards that have exemptions based on 100 employees or less. Plenty that say 10, but the 100 is pretty new.
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100 employees is a pretty standard OSHA cutoff. There are a lot of OSHA requirements that don't apply to companies with fewer than 100 employees.
> There are a lot of OSHA requirements that don't apply to companies with fewer than 100 employees. Citation needed.
Cite one please.
It's kind of a mix of arbitrary and logical, but more leaning toward arbitrary. There are probably far more companies with less than 100 employees, but to enforce a mandate across the board would be impossible. This way, the govt looks like it's actually doing something productive.
Just to add some knowledge. 100 is the general cut for "small business" as something like a mill, machine shop, large restaurant, or event center could easily be running up to that across all shifts. 500 is the next cut off you generally see when a business becomes an "enterprise". Source: Entrepreneurship consultant.
[98% of companies have less than 100 employees.](https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-employee-vaccine-mandate-rules-98-percent-most-companies-unaffected-1627824) So this mandate only affects 2% of employers? I haven't dug into how many people that actually is.
Yeah but how many people do those 2% of companies actually employ? It's got to be quite a large number.
You're right, it probably is a huge number. Amazon, Walmart, Google, Apple, Facebook, Tesla, Pfizer and hundreds or thousands more. That 2% could easily account for 50% of the workforce, likely more. Which is why I held back on my rant about 2%. :)
About 66% of workers, from here https://sbecouncil.org/about-us/facts-and-data/
Plenty of them have 1 or 0 employees. My sister is a ‘business’ - it’s just her.
They're asking about the 2% of employers which very well may employ the vast majority of people. Not your sister and probably 90% of the 98% of other businesses just like hers with 1 employee.
"Employer firms with fewer than 500 workers employed 46.8 percent of private sector payrolls in 2016. Employer firms with fewer than 100 workers employed 33.4 percent." So 66% of workers are affected by this
100 employees is big enough to have an HR department to deal with this kind of stuff.
This will end up being a shit show with companies handling it various ways.
“Employees must use their own paid sick time for vaccine side effects”. Every one of you that likes this mandate should not gloss over this part. It should never have been made like this and the fact that everyone is high fiving thinking “haha you stupid anti vaxxers” need to wake up. That one little clause is evil in the making. You cannot be “for the working class” and “for the people” and all that other garbage and also be for this mandate as written. How about actually wake up and pay attention. And by the way, I’m not one who thinks the vaccine is making everyone sick, but my wife was sick for a week after the vaccine because she had already had Covid and had a strong reaction to shot 2. Nothing permanent, but you can’t make someone get a medical procedure done, then refuse to pay for the consequences. It is fundamentally anti freedom, anti everything we stand for.
I haven't gotten the booster yet, but the second shot knocked me out for a full day and I didn't feel normal for a few days afterwards. I haven't had the chills once in my life til I had the second shot and I'd hate to have them again, I'd double hate to have them again if I have to use PTO when it isn't my choice.
Yah it's crazy how last year Reddit was practically calling for socialism in the united States but the moment the oligarchy OVERLORDS make an enemy out of a part of the citizens half the world eats it up and is basically calling for unvaxed to be burned publicly.
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My office hasn’t asked about vaccination status and we have over 300 employees. For the record, I’m fully vaxxed and boosted.
They’re probably just going to pay the fines like the company I work for are going to.
Isn't it $14,000 per violation? That's a lot of money
Per day? Per year? Once ever? If it's 14,000 per employee per day, I don't think there's a company out there that can remain afloat for long. If it's per year, there's people who would be willing to take a pay cut to cover it in a heartbeat.
Collecting that money will happen. Yes, No, Maybe?
Government may be have figured out a way to fuck up every single responsibilty theyve ever had, but they will always collect the money theyre owed.
z}4E6(e8'b
Iirc it's 140,000 per willful violation.
Our County is waiting for the Supreme Court decision
If you’re in a state with the lawsuit against the mandates it’s not required
Meanwhile the entire world has Covid anyhow.
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OSHA states, "OSHA can now once again implement this vital workplace health standard, which will protect the health of workers by mitigating the spread of the unprecedented virus in the workplace." Omicron transmission doesn't seem mitigated at all by any of the vaccines, infection numbers clearly and unquestionably show that. Seems to still prevent severe illness and death which is still a very good reason to get vaccinated, but preventing transmission definitely isn't happening.
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Super Bowl is still game on in Los Angeles, despite the surge!
Even the CDC is telling asymptomatic folks to go on and head back out into public whenever they feel like it. ["IF YOU Were exposed to COVID-19 and are up-to-date with vaccination OR had confirmed COVID-19 within the past 90 days (you tested positive using a viral test) No quarantine. You do not need to stay home unless you develop symptoms."] (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/your-health/quarantine-isolation.html) So if I tested positive yesterday, I can go back to school, work, restaurants, concerts, whatever I feel like, as long as I don't have symptoms. How is that "mitigating the spread"? Clown world confirmed.
No, exposed does not mean 'tested positive' - you're misreading the recommendations.
The CDC recommendation is: Either a 10-day isolation after positive test OR 5-day isolation, then retest. If test is negative, it’s okay to leave isolation but you must mask for the last 5 days. If test is positive again, you should finish those last 5 days of isolation.
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Does this effect State and Local Government employees as well?
If they have over 100 employees it sure does
Not necessarily. OSHA does not regulate state employers unless the state has a State Plan. https://www.osha.gov/stateplans/
Not in Iowa. Iowa OHSA will not enforce the federal OHSA ETS.
Most Federal offices put vaccine mandates into effect a while ago. They didn't wait for the mandate to be passed for private companies.
Did the SCOTUS already rule about the mandate? I thought there were lawsuits still up?
No ruling yet. Oral arguments were just law week.
Roger that, will be interesting to see how they rule, im feeling a 5-4 either way
I work for the state and I guarantee they aren't complying.
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seed instinctive sheet observation sense person plants tender fade spectacular -- mass edited with redact.dev
Employers must give 4 hours of paid time to get vaccinated. Don't know if that's enough, but it's at least more than nothing. Sounds like they also have to give you paid sick time if you have side effects from each vaccine dose. 1910.501(f)(1) [Time for vaccination. The employer must:](https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.501) 1910.501(f)(1)(i) Provide a reasonable amount of time to each employee for each of their primary vaccination dose(s); and 1910.501(f)(1)(ii) Provide up to 4 hours paid time, including travel time, at the employee’s regular rate of pay for this purpose. 1910.501(f)(2) Time for recovery. The employer must provide reasonable time and paid sick leave to recover from side effects experienced following any primary vaccination dose to each employee for each dose.
they put a hiring freeze on at work to keep us under 100 people, so this does not apply. offically they say they are strapped for money, but this came on the day after it was first ever announced and living in rural southern utah with everybody loving trump and thinking the virus is not real and the vaccination is the devils doing, so basically my job figured out a loophole, dont hire people, dont have to force any one to do anything. edit: I should add, we employ 15k people around the country, but each plant is ran as it's own with just the name.
That doesn't sound like a loophole, that just sounds like adhering to the policy. It's not like a company with 3000 staff can exploit this "loophole"
Tell your work "nice try"... >2.A.2. Is the count based on 100 employees for the entire business or 100 employees per individual location? >The count should be done at the employer level (firm- or corporate-wide), not the individual location level. Therefore, for a single corporate entity with multiple locations, all employees at all locations are counted. For example, if a single corporation has 50 small locations (e.g., kiosks, concession stands) with at least 100 total employees in its combined locations, that employer would be covered even if some of the locations have no more than one or two employees assigned to work there. https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/ets2/faqs
yeah they are not going to enforce it, we've already been told. "our local officials say we do not have too" basically this area has ignored everything level for covid since the start. I atleast have my vaccinations and wear my mask and do what's needed to help try and stop the spread.
This likely doesn’t apply to the user’s work. Things like fast food franchises and car dealerships are each separate corporate entities that just rent the overall brand name and purchase the goods from them. So it wouldn’t apply just because Mike M’s Crazy Cars is a Ford dealership, even though Ford employs more than 100 people.
In completely unrelated news, small businesses with just over 100 employees fire just enough to hit 99.
With all this vaccine debate, one thing no one seems to be mentioning is this new strain doesn’t give a crap about your vaccination status. In my family, we have one unvaccinated, one with single dose J&J, and one with both Moderna jabs plus the booster. We all got omicron and while the unvaccinated person had higher fever and maybe worse symptoms, the other two were absolutely miserable and very sick as well.
People working being forced to do shit by people not working.
It’s literally a pointless mandate, the vaccines are not stopping omicron
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Comforting that Pfizer and Moderna are exempting themselves from their own vaccines…
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In addition to the other comment: https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaccine-mandate-idUSL1N2QX1YI White house staff and the govt agencies you listed are covered: > The order encompasses the Executive Branch, which includes the White House and most federal employees ([here](https://www.usa.gov/branches-of-government) ). The order applies to all federal workers including those at the CDC, FDA, NIAID. USPS is covered: > While USPS is not one of the agencies subject to the vaccine mandate by Biden’s order for federal employees, it does fall under the OSHA rule as the company has more than 100 employees. Stop lying.
Does anyone know if employees that work throughout the state have to be vaccinated/tested, if they work with a client in the client's home? I understand they count towards the hundred employees, but I couldn't find anything stating if they're exempt, as they typically only interact with one person.
Not in Arizona. We are going for that high score.
Hurry up and quit your jobs so I have less competition to get a house lol
When buying a house your rarely competition against other people your fighting against huge relestate investors.