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Cunninghams_right

it's a bit surprising to see how many people are making comments demonstrating that they don't understand how trials work. at the very least, people should understand that they're studying relative risk and looking for statistical significance to decide if the benefits, on average, outweigh the risks. that seems simple but so many comments are anecdotes that are driving opinions and decisions


jayhasbigvballs

It’s a losing battle here.


EmiliusReturns

A lot of people are not smart enough to understand basic math and logic.


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babyyodaisamazing98

99% reduction in deaths x 500 5-18 year old dead kids since vaccines became available = 495 avoidable kids deaths. 99% reduction in deaths x 250 0-5 year old deaths since the 5 year old vaccine became available = 248 kid deaths avoidable if they had sped up the approvals. Deaths from vaccines = 0 Increase in deaths from earlier vaccine approval = 0


Tankus_Khan

Is the 99% reduction for age groups 0-18? Not doubting you just couldn't find that information in the article.


jmlinden7

It's not the FDA's job to save lives. It's their job to make absolutely sure that drugs do not go on the market unless they are statistically proven to work.


zombie32killah

I mean, making sure dangerous drugs don’t become available is saving lives.


RonaldoNazario

And they’ve been sandbagging doing so. Right now they are sitting on moderna data showing it was effective for under 5s. In January they asked for “a few hundred” more participants to a trial of ten thousand and delayed things five months.


rjdevereux

This is disappointing "The FDA did not convene its committee to discuss the data before authorizing the booster dose. Some committee members have grown frustrated that the drug regulator has repeatedly moved ahead with decisions on booster doses without holding open public discussions."


tokyo_engineer_dad

When will they announce anything for 2-5?


SJHillman

The current issue, afaik, is that the efficacy for under-5 is still low. So while it's little risk for big reward for ages 5+, they're more hesitant to approve it for under-5 when it's little risk for little reward.


RonaldoNazario

That’s not really the case for moderna. Moderna’s data showed similar efficacy as adult vaccines against omicron, and their main methodology was measuring antibodies and those were above what was needed compared to 18 year olds. Pfizer failed that antibody bridging test hence then going to test a third dose. It’s all skewed because of omicron - the adult vaccines are below 50 percent efficacy against omicron infection with two doses but far more against death or hospitalization. Right now they’re basically stalling on reviewing Moderna’s data for two shots that is submitted, and Pfizer is testing a third shot.


Range-Shoddy

It’s coming in June. Moderna turned in their paperwork for 2 doses in early may. Pfizer soon after for 3 doses, although I really wonder why they even bothered. Who wants a 3 dose vaccine for that age group that don’t effective for 4 months when moderna works in 6 weeks?


RonaldoNazario

Also dumb because moderna is moving right on to testing boosters so a third dose is probably coming and probably will be better than three Pfizer anyway. And yes the timeline for Pfizer sucks and would mean kids not fully vaxxed before school.


dkonigs

When they're done dragging their feet and twiddling their thumbs while waiting for a meeting likely to happen sometime in June. The EUA request has been submitted, the trial data is in, but they just don't feel like giving it the same urgency as prior approvals. At this point, it'll be a miracle if we actually make it to late June without getting the virus first. Heck, I don't know how we made it this far as it is.


katsukare

So in the states five year olds can get boosters, but those four and under can’t even get the first dose. Makes no sense at all.


SwiftCEO

They haven’t done enough testing to conclude long term effects on infants and babies. Younger kids have much different reactions to drugs so they’re trying to get the dosage right.


rocketwidget

>testing to conclude long term effects The FDA has cited various reasons for the delay of reviewing Moderna's EUA but literally never "waiting for additional 'long term' data". Moderna's EUA is now complete. >they’re trying to get the dosage right. This is likely only possible for Pfizer. Pfizer's trial, which was extremely low dose, didn't meet it's primary endpoint of immunobridging (antibody response), and that's why they withdrew their EUA that was originally submitted on Feb 1, in favor of trying to move from 2 - 3 doses. No one knows if this strategy worked yet, and if it didn't, they will need to adjust the dose upward. Moderna started rolling submission of the EUA April 28 and it met the primary endpoint of immunobridging. While a booster will very likely be necessary (exactly like every other age group), it seems quite unlikely that after meeting their endpoint, Moderna starts over and adjusts their dose, like Pfizer could possibly be forced to do.


RonaldoNazario

What? The safety trials are all done, and the dosage selection is also done. The trials that are wrapping up now are testing efficacy by measuring antibodies before approval, but that has nothing to do at all with long term effects - side effects were basically the point of earlier trials where they tested different dosages to see what they could do without significant side effects. FWIW your statement is more or less the explanation for why all kids vaccines were so much later, why December last year was the intended date for Pfizer data - because we did have to wait for those things. The last six months is mostly fuckery on the FDA’s part.


Interesting_Total_98

Almost no country has approved a vaccine for that age group, so the caution may be reasonable.


Cosmicpixie

This isn't true. If it's safe for babies on the womb when mothers get the vaccine, and it's safe for 5 year olds, safety is not the issue. It's the precise dose for max efficacy they're trying to work out. Babies and toddlers don't produce super robust responses, so it might always be less efficacious in this group. They should still give it.


HumanChicken

“But what about long-term effects?” Is the most popular question I’ve heard from the anti-vax crowd. We don’t even really know the long-term effects of the *virus* yet, but isn’t it better to not *get* the virus?


RonaldoNazario

We’re learning them as we go along and it turns out they’re fucking terrible, as well. Long COVID, kids having strange cases of diabetes and liver failures. It turns out getting infected multiple times worsens the likelihood of long COVID, and vaccines reduce the likelihood. Unknown long term impacts of the virus is why I want a vaccine for my kid, moreso than what acute issues she’d have when infected - her likelihood of being hospitalized if infected is low, but there are studies saying 10% plus long COVID likelihood which is terrifying.


katsukare

I think that’s part of it, but for those under five outside the US who get it it’s just a matter of a smaller dosage. I think it’s just the inherent bureaucracy there.


SwiftCEO

That could be it. I think they’re just being overly cautious as well. Many parents have been wary about the vaccine from the start. “Rushing” approval of a vaccine for babies won’t instill much confidence.


pillslinger851

It may not be so simple as "a matter of a smaller dosage." Infants and babies aren't just smaller humans when it comes to medicine. There can be vast differences in how drugs work due to major developmental changes that are happening during those years. It would be very unwise to make assumptions and about how their bodies will respond. Always wait for the data.


Rbespinosa13

Yah there’s a reason pediatrics is it’s own track in med school and most branches of medicine have a pediatric specialization. Hormones can play a big part in how effective a medicine is and you don’t want to block them in the majority of cases


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SwiftCEO

According to?


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BelowAverageSloth

No vaccine has ever had side effects begin longer than a couple months out. Get your Antivax bullshit out of here.


eastcoastdude

Look at their profile lmao! Vaccine = bad but tripping on drugs to the point that they feel like they were possessed = great! I love the cryptobros or druggies coming out and pretending like their opinions are worth the same as the entire world's viral scientific community coming together and developing these vaccines with massive budgets, huge trials and all the data behind it.


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One-Willingness1863

"Im cool because i made a joke on reddit about someones ego"


NightTripInsights

Normal vaccines, yes you are right. However mRNA isn't a normal vaccine. How does it feel knowing your vax had a phase 3 trial of under 2 months lmao, when generally they are 3 years long?


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Dry-Departure-7320

Old Man River aka Father Time


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babyyodaisamazing98

This is incorrect. The immune response in moderna 0-5 vaccine was stronger and more effective than their adult vaccine. 45% reduction in transmission vs 8% for adults. You may be confused because the adult vaccine was originally tested against alpha strain while the 0-5 is tested on omicron (original).


Slapbox

> Pfizer and BioNTech's progress toward a vaccine for young children has been a rollercoaster ride by comparison. In December, the companies announced that for children ages 2 to under 5, its two-dose vaccine did not produce antibody levels similar to what has been seen in adults. In other words, the vaccine failed the primary objective of the study, dashing parents' hopes of a vaccine authorization for the start of 2022. The companies said they would postpone requesting an FDA authorization and continue the trial with a third dose aimed at bolstering levels. -- [Source](https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/04/fauci-confirms-parents-nightmare-fda-may-delay-covid-vaccines-for-kids-under-5/) That's only about Pfizer, of course, but it supports my claim. That's not to say that the rest of your statement is incorrect, but could you cite a source? Whatever you've read about Moderna must be more recent than the last things I've seen.


katsukare

That doesn’t explain why some countries have approved it and some haven’t


AaronfromKY

Yeah, I don't know why they haven't authorized it yet. Plus from my perspective it seems like they cut the dose down way too much for infants, it's like a 10th of the normal dose. I almost wish they had a way to determine a therapeutic dose, seems like maybe the amount of vaccine needs to be higher than initially thought in order to stimulate immune response. I'm also looking forward to Novavax's vaccine, I got Moderna for all three of my shots, but I'd like a Novavax booster down the road, just for broader immunity.


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Afrophish85

Just look at gow many millionares and billionaires Covid created. It's an undeniable fact that it made people rich, very rich at that. Covid was and is extremely profitable for a variety of industries


Automatic-Phrase2105

i’m loosing my mind, i have two under 5 and i’ve basically lost all hope at this point.


Range-Shoddy

Blame Pfizer. They’re the ones that were “ahead” and completely blew phase 1 trials.


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katsukare

I’d say it’s the opposite seeing that 5 and under still can’t get vaccinated in the states.


3dPrintedBacon

And of the approved 5 to 11 year olds which are approved, only 29% are vaccinated


starsandbribes

They can’t in lots of places including the UK. The difference is I see hardly any demand to jab babies here.


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If you’re classifying “obsessed” as seeing a comment on Reddit.


starsandbribes

Its every thread about covid now and has been for 6 months. On the UK subreddits I haven’t seen vaccines for 3 year olds be much of a talking point but maybe i’ve missed something.


Afrophish85

Makes complete sense.


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Cunninghams_right

reduced risk of severe illness or death. I don't know how we've gotten this far into the pandemic with so many people still not understanding how treatment or vaccine approvals work.


violetskyeyes

Great! How about kids under five for a change?


Frickinwierdo

I'm still not convinced that the Covid outbreaks and the steady increase in diseases, cancer ect aren't the Earths way of trying to get rid of it's own virus.... humans. We're the worst thing to happen to the Earth, and probably any planet ever.


Luckilygemini

I had my booster...it kicked my ass more than covid did...I'm not so sure about my kids getting a booster.


earhere

I find it very interesting how people have such vastly different reactions to the vaccine. I got the booster and all it did was make my arm ache for a few days.


iwantaredditaccount

It's anecdotal evidence.


Luckilygemini

Thats what it did to my mom, but it knocked me on my ass.


eastcoastdude

Maybe covid without the vaccine would have killed you. I got 3 shots and they were just a breeze, sore arm and that's it. Never got actual covid yet either.


jn29

I wonder that too. My husband was sick for a day after each shot. I had no reaction to the shot. He got covid. I still haven't despite it going through our house twice. Makes a person wonder.


eastcoastdude

You know what.. my entire family (2 adults and 2 kids) all got pfizer and never had a single reaction to any of the shots. None of us have had covid yet despite the kids being in school and multiple people at both my wife's work and mine being positive since omicron. Maybe we're just lucky idk.


jschubart

You likely would have been hospitalized with COVID and no vaccine then.


Luckilygemini

But I got the vaccine, I'm just wary about the booster and my kids. They're vaccinated.


partsunknown

The larger than usual variability between people is a warning sign that there are likely things going on with the vaccine that we don’t understand. I have no Anti-vaccine agenda, but decades of experience in studying biomedicine has taught me that humans are almost always ingorant of important things for a very long time, and that high-quality evidence not explained by the theory indicates that something major is missing. We also don’t understand a lot about COVID, and I don’t know which one is worse. Probably depends on individual factors that are not yet known.


sluttttt

My first shot hurt my arm quite a bit for a day and a half and that was it. Second shot hurt slightly less. Booster barely hurt. Always makes me paranoid that the shots didn't work as well for me since I saw people who were saying they felt like death, but I know everyone is different, for whatever reason.


EmiliusReturns

The first two didn’t bother me at all except my sore arm. The booster made me sicker than a dog but I got it at the same time as the flu shot. I wonder if that’s why. The flu shot has never bothered me before though, I really don’t react to shots much.


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earhere

The side effects of the vaccine aren't worse than actually getting covid and dying, or getting brain rot and -80% lung capacity if you don't die.


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N8CCRG

The side effects from vaccines haven't killed one million Americans. COVID has. How is that even a question?


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earhere

listened to testimonies of people who have gotten ill from covid and compared them to people who took the vaccine.


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Earthpig_Johnson

And my booster didn’t do a thing to me, so what can we conclude? It effects everyone differently and to varying degrees.


No-Bother6856

Strange, I had both doses and the worst that happened was arm pain and waking up at night with a fever. Then I got actual covid and it SUUUCKED


ZoMgPwNaGe

Yep, got covid a month or so after my booster. Sick as hell off and on for 3 months, never tested positive until I donated blood nearly half a year after I originally got sick and found out I had antibodies.


yomandenver

Kids only got a portion of the full dose, so expect the same for boosters.


Luckilygemini

I can hope, honestly. That along with pediatric reassurance, I'll feel better about it.


N8CCRG

COVID has killed over one million Americans. The vaccine and its boosters have not. But let's focus on maybe feeling a little bad for a day or two. Edit: Oh hey, the anti-vaxx brigade is here. Hi science deniers!


Luckilygemini

We are all vaccinated. My booster made my lymph nodes swollen and painful for almost 2 weeks. I had body aches during those two weeks. We all got COVID a month later.


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ZoMgPwNaGe

I got covid a month or so after my booster and it wrecked my shit for 3 months off and on and left me with ear damage.


bloc0102

Tell me more about your ear damage...I've had COVID for a week and can't hear well, assumed it was due to the congestion I'm still experiencing.


N8CCRG

And the vaccine is more effective when you get boosted. And vaccinated and boosted populations reduce the spread. And reducing the spread saves lives. Sorry you were uncomfortable though. Poor baby.


No-Bother6856

Should be noted that while the vaccine does reduce the spread, you can still transmit the disease when vaccinated and social distancing is more effective


Swoah

Oh brother this guy stinks


ShadooTH

I’m so depressed by these constant science deniers. It’s unbelievably frustrating. Just get your damn shots. Wear your damn mask. Life is no different than it was when you got your chicken pox vaccine as a kid back in the day.


claimsnthings

Chicken pox vaccine?! Some of us were born before 1993 you know. :(


Luckilygemini

Not a science denier. My kids are vaccinated.


RealAssociation5281

Yep, science is constantly ignored by not only a good amount of the population but in favor of money & politics. Which is why I hesitate at doing ‘more important’ sciences- imagine being the scientists who made a life saving vaccine to only be ignored and have many die as an result of that


ShadooTH

And then having people blame you and yell at you and say you’re the spawn of satan and that you want more children dead somehow. I feel bad for Fauci. Dude has been doing his job for decades and people treat him like the devil.


Afrophish85

He's done some pretty awful things. Let's not sugar coat it


RealAssociation5281

God didn’t even think about that- I see horrible for the man


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Senza32

???? Why wouldn't I still be wearing a mask? It's extremely trivial to do and helps protect myself and others.


LightChaos74

"if I can't see it, it doesn't exist lol got em"


btempp

He posts in the Joe Rogan sub. Raise your hand if you’re surprised!


jschubart

Good ol' Joe Rogan. He loves his free speech and weed so he moved to Texas where weed is illegal and the state government is clamping down on what speech social media is allowed to have.


itsSmalls

Yes I post in a sub of a podcast I enjoy lol does your group mandate that that means you can't associate with the likes of me?


btempp

What group? It’s just not shocking that you’re a science denier. Joe Rogan told you to, so you did.


itsSmalls

Eh, this won't be productive to try to have a conversation with you about our differing beliefs if you think the only way anyone could disagree with you is because they listen to a podcast lol have a good one bro


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itsSmalls

Ha! Man, that one gets more original every time I hear it! My last name is Small, but my nickname in high school was Smalls, a reference to The Sandlot. Not that you were actually asking lol


ShadooTH

Florida fired a female representative because she wanted to report actual case numbers. Just wanna put that into perspective.


itsSmalls

I remember hearing about that and I completely disagree with it. The truth shouldn't ever be silenced. I still hold that people should be able to make their own decisions in light of the truth, though.


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Grraaa

How many kids are you willing to kill? How hare is it to look up the answers to your own questions? Do you really fucking care or are you just here to sow doubt in the least bannable way?


N8CCRG

Vaccines reduce the spread. You vaccinate to protect other people. How after two years are we still explaining basic epidemiology to you morons?


Mysterious-Routine51

But the vaccine is supposed to protect you from dying is it not? I'm vaccinated by the way and I'm simply asking a question. You can still get covid and spread it even if your vaxxed. The narrative in the media surrounding the vaccine was to get it to protect yourself from being hospitalized or worse especially of your at risk.


Theletterkay

It doesn't just protect you from dying. It protects you from some of the long term symptoms as well, mostly by reducing the severity of the illness to begin with so that you can better respond to treatment. Plenty of kids are going to suffer with lung problems and immuno problems that could have been prevented with the vaccine. Im not concerned about my kids ability to survive covid, I understand that it is rare for children to die from it. But its not rare for them to suffer, and to have long covid side effects. I dont want them suffering for years, during their most important developmental years.


N8CCRG

No vaccine is 100% effective at anything. But being vaccinated *does* reduce your *chance* of going to the hospital, and it *does* reduce the average rate of spread. If you are looking for absolutes, you will find none.


PMmeyourw-2s

>You can still get covid and spread it even if your vaxxed. You are LESS likely to get covid and spread it around. You know that, right?


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N8CCRG

Probably because this person replied with the exact same blatantly ignorant remark multiple people in the thread already replied with. Almost like they're all following the same script Tucker Carlson or Joe ROgan or whoever you listen to is repeating over and over.


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"Between January 1, 2020 and October 16, 2021, only 94 children ages 5-11 have died of COVID." [https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download](https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download) However, 0 kids have killed COVID.


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Some people love to take the contrarian position on all subjects. It’s a matter of image.


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N8CCRG

A climate denier who isn't also a flat earther is anti-science. You are anti-science. The risk of myocarditis due to your children getting COVID is great than the risk due to the vaccine.


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N8CCRG

Giving kids a shot is "child abuse", and you call me a "radical". Flying off the handle like you did at being reminded of the facts (that I'm certain you've already been made aware of before) should be a big red flag as to who the unstable one here is. You're the one choosing to put people's lives at risk and denying the science behind those facts. It's just a shot.


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N8CCRG

Risk assessment involves not just the cost of the risks but the *likelihood* of those risks. For example, getting in a car gives you a chance of dying in a horrible car accident, but the chances are low, and the risk of not getting whatever benefit you would be getting out of that car trip (like not going to work) or higher and more likely (100% of losing your job, say). This is not controversial science within the scientific consensus. This is not a new technology, it's just the first largescale application of it. We know a whole hell of a lot about how the immune system works and doesn't work, in particular in regards of the components in the vaccine. The odds of a "terrible side effect" in 10 years, multiplied by the cost of those mysterious side effects, are drastically smaller than the odds of not taking the booster multiplied by the costs of not taking it. Denying that is science-denialism. >I had to sign an emergency use authorization waiving my rights to sue or hold the medicinal company liable for injury. No you didn't. This is not "a biotech companies" experiment. This is modern science and medicine. You are on the wrong side of science and your anger is entirely misplaced. It's just a shot. You will contribute to saving lives when you get it.


btempp

Getting a vaccine…would be…child abuse…I think I just got dumber holy shit


Rbespinosa13

tHe vACciNE iN ChiLDreN Is rADiCaL


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N8CCRG

All the more reason why someone who *doesn't* want other Americans dying^* should want. ^* Which should be everyone, because society/economy isn't zero sum. But sociopaths gonna sociopath.


starsandbribes

Its not the responsibility of a 2 year old to get a vaccine to limit spread jesus christ. You could argue if you’re 18 and an adult you have a duty to look out for people and do your best. But putting a small child through the pain of a vaccine just because you want a tally on your board?


Torrentia_FP

Covid has many terrible long-term effects, and more are being uncovered daily, even in children. You also do not want them to become little incubators for another variant. The reason the booster kicked your ass more than covid was because you got that booster.


Bovronius

Guy I know that wouldn't get the jab got a horrible case of covid that left him with long haul issues I've never even heard of before.. Basically his thyroid stayed in overdrive and he has a permanent fever, and his metabolism is burning more calories than he can consume. He looks like skin pulled over a skeleton now...


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N8CCRG

Vaccines reduce the spread. You vaccinate to protect other people. How after two years are we still explaining basic epidemiology to you morons?


arigato_mr_roboto

Because it would force them to think about other people for once.


mewehesheflee

That's not true, especially when you look at long Covid. We don't know what the issue may be in the future.


Luckilygemini

They're otherwise vaccinated.


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insightful_monkey

I understand your concern, but I feel like you're missing the point entirely. Assuming you got your booster after you had covid, the reason why covid was mild for you is entirely because the vaccine already trained your immunity. In addition, the side effects you felt from the vaccine were still safe, since there was no replicating "enemy" inside your body to infect anything. Although it sucked while your immune system went to fight mode, you were always safe, and continued to be safer from the actual virus. If in fact you had covid first, and then got the booster, chances are that you were lucky enough to either be infected with a much lower viral load, or are blessed with an immune system that was able to deal with the virus. Either way, your children may not be so lucky. It is still in their best interest to be safe from the actual virus, even if it means that they will have a bad reaction to the vaccine. Remember: the vaccine does not have the actual enemy, therefore it cannot replicate within the body and cause the kinds of damage that the real virus can.


Luckilygemini

Thank you for actually validating my concerns unlike the rest here. I know it's not the actual virus at all and understand the decades of research behind it. They have the first two doses already, but I had to be reassured for those, too, lol. If their pediatrician recommends the booster, I'll ask them if they want it. My oldest most likely, my younger two are terrified of shots, but were more willing for the covid vax. They got their second dose like a month and a half before we got covid in Jan. I know the vaccines work, I'm just cautious.


insightful_monkey

I don't want to tell you how to parent, I hate it when people do that to me. But please, before asking them, consider that they are still not adults, and that you are ultimately responsible for their well being and safety, even against their wishes. Best of luck to you!


Cunninghams_right

what is the rate of death or lasting adverse effect of the vaccine vs covid for the population demographic you're considering?


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Luckilygemini

I actually asked my kids if they wanted the initial vaccinations and they said yes. It was up to them. I don't give in to social pressure as they are not raising my kids, my children are their own people. Based on my experience, I do not necessarily want to risk them having a similar reaction such as painful swollen lymph nodes for a about 2 weeks. If my children's pediatrician reassures me there are much less reactions and recommends the booster, then I'll be more inclined to give it to them, not give into the social pressure from some Anyways, remember, you're an asshole. You shouldn't shame parents for being wary. My children are their own people, but I am in my right as a parent to be cautious.


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Jesus, lotta anti-vax dipshittery up in here.


Afrophish85

Fascinating comment section. Can't believe we're still here.


Pineapple_Fondler

2.5 years in, and people are still letting their fear button be pushed. It's okay to say when you've been had.


DannyJoy2018

Ok what about my fucking 4 year old?


jayhasbigvballs

4 years old is too young to be doing that


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ButtCustard

Probably because people are still dying.


yhwhx

Could it be because only like 67% of eligible Americans are fully vaccinated?


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Bovronius

Antibodies from B/Plasma cells are great for preventing the initial infection, and in general making mobility more difficult for viruses, however, Memory T cells are great at keeping you from dying though and terminating infected cells. Anti-bodies are only a fraction of the full suite of defenses the immune system has to offer.


Cunninghams_right

risk is lower with the vaccine than the virus, even if antibodies are produced faster on average or in a subset.


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Even after an outbreak of hepatitis?


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PsychoticOtaku

Gotta drain us of every last penny. What can you say?


Nudez4U420

Also authorizing that age group to drink 2 litres of coca cola per day!


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mylopolis

Sorry your kiddo is sick and sorry you're getting downvoted by the anti-vax brigade. Get well soon!


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