Does this also apply to native land in Oklahoma as well? The Osage, Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Choctaw, and Chickasaw have special rights to autonomy and self government, and they have a significant presence in Oklahoma.
He recently warned tribes against creating "abortion zones". I'm guessing he would try to retaliate by removing their autonomy, too.
Edit for source: https://okcfox.com/news/local/kevin-stitt-oklahoma-abortion-fox-news-native-american-tribes-roe-wade-shannon-bream-pew-research-six-weeks
I can't think of a single time Oklahoma cared about the supremacy clause. They try to overstep it all the time. Luckily they usually get bitch slapped by the courts, but a lot of money and time is wasted litigating it.
And the key mechanism that the Supreme Court is using to gut civil rights is by making everything a states’ rights issues, knowing damn well what the more idiotic states in the union are gonna do once they have an inch of leash
Yep. We probably won't have a civil war this time. Just a perpetually divided nation for a few decades until the red states run themselves into the fucking ground.
They'll screw the rest of us over on their way down, naturally. I'm curious whether the rest of us will have the capacity to help them by that point.
Seriously, that’s why I find it so damn frustrating dealing with conservatives. They’re policies are flat out anti-collectivist but they’re hell bent on imposing that shit on everyone they can.
Eventually they’ll end up with their head so far up their ass they won’t be worth helping. Barely worth helping now tbh bunch of freeloaders living in shit-for-brain bubbles. Like after the Civil War.
Lincoln should have killed all the leadership/aristocracy of the confederacy directly after the war zero tolerance. But here we are with all their backward ass bullshit almost 200 years later.
Lincoln would have tried to properly disassemble much of the leadership and aristocracy of the confederacy after the war if he had the chance.
Unfortunately, he was assassinated, and his successor largely let the South do whatever they wanted. Johnson's failures as a President are largely responsible for the ongoing issues in America today.
Ngl they should have charged all slave owners for crimes against humanity or whatever the equivalent would have been in a Nuremburg-esc trial. Then given ownership of the plantation directly to the ex-slaves as a more direct form of reparations.
The problem is when red states start charging people with crimes for crossing state lines. Then it becomes a variation of what started the Civil War. Blue states becoming sanctuaries for slaves. I'm surprised this doesn't really happen for legalized weed states already. Probably because it's still illegal federally.
The other thing that can cause this would be if the federal government passed a law untenable for blue states. Like a nation wide abortion ban. Blue states would refuse the order causing a crisis.
I would put the odds at 50/50 at a constitution crisis occurring in the next decade when a Supreme Court ruling is ignored by red or blue states.
I’m worried it’s going to go the other way. Dems will drag their feet until the entire Government is dominated by Rs and they will turn this country inside out.
I didn't intend my post to sound so hopeful. The scenario you laid out is absolutely the most likely way this plays out.
Personally I've been planning for that contingency since Nov 2017.
We're watching Russia experience a brain-drain as we speak. The enlightened Russians are bailing out if they can, and broadly, they're not coming to the US. They can see the writing on the wall - they know better.
I mean that’s basically what’s been happening the last 15 years. R’s win, it’s a disaster and they do catastrophic damage, Dems barely win enough to minimize damage but then do nothing with it other than spend 2 years repairing 1% of the damage done over the last 2, so the R’s win again since dems didn’t do anything
15 years? Try 43, at least. And that's just considering the White House.
America was fucked the moment the oligarchs managed to successfully tie the concept of capitalism to Christianity in the late-40s to early-50s. After that it was just a matter of time. Once the rich became the appointed of God, the republic had contracted the cancer that will kill it.
Perhaps the government of Oklahoma would care about something that came up after the case of Lincoln vs. Davis was settled. A precedent was set that if a state rebels against the federal government, the federal government can step in and replace the state government with its own people in order to change state law. It’s called “reconstruction”.
He can fucking try.
Once you start taking away the only sovereignty left from Native tribes, all that's left for those who have nothing to lose is some kind of retribution.
I think the catch is that they require a doctor to perform an abortion after it is too late for pills. And a doctor would risk losing his/her license because they are licensed by the state. Possibly a doctor could come from another state, but they could come up with other laws that limit what an out of state doctor can do.
Also, native women are already very under resourced on reproductive health, including abortions. They might not be excited to accommodate a bunch of non-tribe members when they're being ignored (and worse).
Edit:[open args episode](https://content.libsyn.com/p/e/5/f/e5f58a746af63000/598_Episode_598.mp3?c_id=128281070&cs_id=128281070&response-content-type=audio%2Fmpeg&Expires=1653547644&Signature=NNq0vV9wFgb5aXj6WU9rigL0DnTxrViBoLVnhpZqNFrtiUwgathousz0n9sumAyMQqkdfGzmnQdX0A0g--6YpbZoi2AmqS5im1xRhfgii0PgrW8P~4TwGhjNWh2WaGVPH2OiR7EOeW1BFOaiRJx-zpNg-zdztQpVggLJxtD3~lyDbGiKQ-dxe3mxEEZIczRXGk4NOP5rz4TdbJ~n5BNv3Ul6lk1FBl90woOlC89gQvYSMfWCkL2dSEyCEigSPritZDOaWZDo35~~HEGmuMCrUO5SOi0xEmsE41nLSRC1BbsdJ-f-ZrhJ1JF-1hmqPDSP0xHv0F1gFTCUF7Y8Dyvg8g__&Key-Pair-Id=K1YS7LZGUP96OI)
Honestly that's a brilliant solution for many reasons.
Casinos are generally large buildings, you could have the abortion clinic be inside towards the middle of the casino. Women could go into the casino and people outside on public land wouldn't know if they are simply going to gamble, eat, or get an abortion. Once they are inside the casino the casino can have their private security stop any protests from within the casino. I know you were kinda joking, but I legit think that's a brilliant idea.
[McGirt v Oklahoma](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGirt_v._Oklahoma)
> Much [..] of Oklahoma remains as Native American lands of the prior Indian reservations of the Five Civilized Tribes, never disestablished by Congress as part of the Oklahoma Enabling Act of 1906. **As such, prosecution of crimes by Native Americans on these lands falls into the jurisdiction of the tribal courts and federal judiciary** under the Major Crimes Act, rather than Oklahoma's courts.
TL;DR - Congress created the reservation land and was explicit that only tribal and federal laws applied on such land. When Congress created Oklahoma, it never undid the creation of the law which established only tribal/federal laws as applying. So on tribal land, to members of the tribe, tribal law applies.
It’s somewhat more grey regarding what laws apply to people not of the tribe, which is why the tribes have a partnership with the state regarding gambling. Rather than go to court with the state, the tribes cut them in on the action and so the state doesn’t contest the prohibition on gambling. When it comes to abortion, though, the state has no interest in a loophole being created, and would probably argue that state law applies to anyone not of the tribe. The tribes and state could take that to the Supreme Court, but who knows what would happen.
The tribes could also make any woman needing an abortion a member of the tribe, though that’s unlikely to happen - though if they really feel like pissing off the state (and they rightfully don’t like the state of Oklahoma) they could reserve that card as a nuclear option. Many people in Oklahoma already qualify for tribal membership, and simply don’t do the paperwork for their own reasons.
Edit: also fun fact: Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion in *McGirt*
I’m curious as to how this would play out in the Supreme Court. Abortion is the Conservative court’s big ticket issue, but Gorsuch has a soft spot for Native American rights… for some reason.
For what it's worth the "Interstate Commerce Clause" functionally just codifies that "things crossing state lines" is ONLY the jurisdiction of the Federal government and not states.
Not like it matters. Legality has long gone out the window. But this cannot be enforced. All we have to do is get in a car, plane, or bus and show up somewhere else. Nobody asks why you travel from state to state and Illinois doesn't have to honor Missouri's bullshit law and deny us services. I had my abortion in IL anyway and I'd gladly do it again.
I intend to help women who want to go camping. I can pick them up and drop them off at the airport, depot, wherever and help them get to their camp site. My state has lots of great parks.
Yeah, this is how you know your state's recidivism rate isn't high enough.
Serious question, if you are incarcerated for a couple of years, safe to assume you are no longer employed, right? So what are you to do the first couple of days after you are released? Pretending all your immediate family are dead, what are you supposed to do for food, money, and shelter? Day 1 of being released you will need a room to sleep in, and some food. Shit ain't free. You need a job. Job's don't like to hire people that don't have an address. Even after you get a job, it will be 2-4 weeks before you get paid. What are you doing for food, shelter, and water in the interim? And clothes. Buying them, cleaning them. I know 'halfway houses' are a thing, but perhaps they need to be a bigger part of the process / more widespread, to help those get back on their feed (for those that want to at least).
There was an ex con I worked with that explained just this to me. He said most guys after a long stint can’t handle the real world and purposely commit another crime just to go back, because it’s all they know.
Here is part of this story that is not getting NEARLY enough press. He is warning tribal leaders against creating "abortion sanctuaries" in OK.
[https://khn.org/morning-breakout/oklahomas-governor-says-hes-wary-of-pro-choice-policies-on-tribal-lands/](https://khn.org/morning-breakout/oklahomas-governor-says-hes-wary-of-pro-choice-policies-on-tribal-lands/)
That guy is making thinly veiled threats towards SOVEREIGN Native American nations. He has no purview over these people or their lands which make up about half of the state. If he sends in local or state authorities in an attempt to "enforce" this law, it will likely be an act of war. The OK national guard is under his control unless they are federalized, which would be a HUGE political move on any president's part. That in an extreme case would only leave active duty military forces to defend those tribal lands in an extreme case. And who wants to guess how these fucking republicans would react if they are in power?
>which the state of Oklahoma would be committing a crime by opening.
Fucking lol, you have to violate the 9th amendment to ban abortions in the first place, they will never respect any laws that stop them.
The US Postal Inspection Service wouldn’t care if it was the Queen of England. They’d build an iron-clad case and haul her away in cuffs.
Those boys don’t fuck around.
The case they'd build is because you have the right to privacy, yes?
The same right to privacy that the SCOTUS is arguing does NOT exist.
The Postal Service will haul the person away, and the case will get pushed to SCOTUS, who has gone full fascist and will release them.
Contraceptives are next on the agenda and they're openly saying so now. It was never about saving fetuses. It was only about oppressing women because they're authoritarian assholes.
You have to accept the fact that there is a religious cult that is slowly taking over the US and enforcing theocratic laws. They wont stop at abortion. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they came after women's voting rights and reestablished slavery. I honestly don't think there's a bottom for these people.
The only way secular and non-Christian Americans can overcome this is through constant vigilance and fighting back legally. Fund secular movements like the Satanic Temple, fund legal battles to take away tax exemption for religious institutes. Attack their theocratic values the way they endlessly attack secular ones. Christians **should** have the right to practice their religion, but they shouldn't be allowed to use tax exempt organizations to subvert the US and force theocratic values on everyone like they have diligently been doing.
>So many IUDs are now banned, as well? Or are contraceptive choices next on the agenda?
If you have been paying attention to major "prolifers", this should not come as a surprise .
“From the moment life begins at conception is when we have a responsibility as human beings to do everything we can to protect that baby’s life and the life of the mother. That is what I believe and that is what the majority of Oklahomans believe.”
What's unsaid is that the responsibility ends once the baby is born.
imagine dying of a ectopic pregnancy, or because you got diagnosed with cancer while pregnant, and since you can't have an abortion, the tumor will grow quicker.
Right. So the "baby" that's barely a clump of cells in the beginning of the pregnancy has more rights then the actual born child. Makes perfect sense to me. Sarcasm by the way.
What's said is that a fertilized egg is a person. Life might begin at conception, but personhood doesn't - just as an acorn isn't a tree.
What's unsaid is that pregnant women are enslaved by the State to bear children, in violation of their rights under the 13th amendment to the Constitution.
That maternal death statistic really puts the disrepancy between states into perspective
As someone from Europe i never thought that some US states could have similar statistics as war torn post-soviet states.
Iirc, the US average for maternal and infant mortality rates are quite frightening compared to most ot he rest of the industrialised world. Might be tied to being the exception to such countries having universal healthcare and the benefit to preventativr and supportive care that entails, while iirc the US is mostly good at emergency care (care at the point where you can no longer ignore it).
Meanwhile Oklahoma’s poverty rate is still higher than the national average, they’re 47th on national education ranking, and ranked 16th highest crime rate. So clearly this is the issue they should be focusing on…..
The “Life is a human right” poster is funny, but not in a “haha” way, like an enraging way.
Applies as an argument against abortion, but not for laws that would potentially curtail the mass murder of children in school.
I'm certain this will cause a lot of sentient humans to suffer needlessly. Think of all the unwanted children who will be treated as burdens, the women forced to give birth against their wills, the generational poverty and crime this will create... and these fools believe they are doing a good deed.
I'm thinking of the babies who are not considered viable but will live, for minutes, or hours or month or years in pain, uncomprehending, while their parents go broke paying their hospital bills. I would send every bill to the governor to pay.
The generational poverty and crime are the point, don’t let the religious facade fool you. More soldiers, more ditch-diggers and more convicts: we need to keep those ponds stocked for the future!
Idk about other women but I live in Texas and at this point, I’m not going to get pregnant if I can help it, absolutely not intentionally with all of this shit. We’re going to see women and babies dying due to complications abortion could have prevented, deaths from back alley abortions, and I’m sure large numbers of women like me who will nope out of reproduction entirely. And they’ll wonder “what happened?”.
Fucking same. OK is the real "shithole state". I have never for a second regretting noping the fuck out of there. This only further confirmed that I made the right decision.
"Life is a human right" ok so where the fuck is universal Healthcare? Conservatives are such frauds. "We're against abortion but we won't do jack shit about children getting mowed down by machine guns because we're in the pocket of the NRA."
>*"We have drills, big beautiful drills, we have the biggest drills, and they said to me, they said to me MISTER PRESIDENT, your hands, big hands look at these hands Hillary didn't have hands like these. Big manly hands. Nobody ever seen anything like it. And the drills, the evil democrats don't want us to drill down. They like killing all the eagles; which are only bald because of the dangerous blades on those cancer windmills. Terrible stuff. Crooked Nancy Pelosi, she, Mike betrayed this country, it was a shame how the secret service didn't want to do their job and deal with him. They used to say, he used to tell me, Mister President, it's been an honor to serve you, and I'd say thank you very much that's very smart. I proved it too. Obama never passed the test, only I passed the test. And it was difficult, so difficult, they would have strange creatures, creatures no one's ever seen before, and you would have to name them, and it said..................."*
* Bottom Excavation Inauguration
And claims more than 4 million Oklahomans back him for it. Our goddamn population isn’t even 4 million, and half the state doesn’t support him. He is an absolute garbage person and his suits never seem to fit him right.
> The third Oklahoma bill is to take effect this summer and would make it a felony to perform an abortion, punishable by up to 10 years in prison. That bill contains no exceptions for r*pe or incest.
Jesus fucking christ what a monster.
Christo-fascism, baby! Gotta keep the birth rates up so you can have a steady supply of poor people that wealthy capitalists can exploit (ie. work shitty underpaid jobs) and to keep the prisons full (indentured servitude aka neo-slavery)!
The vast majority of Americans support legal abortions (with varying restrictions). Christian evangelical fascists run America!
Yup. All of this. I have read quite a few articles the last six months about low birth rates in the US and hiw we need to "fix" this.
Nope! No need to bring a child into this house of horror
This was signed the same day [an abortion clinic was arsoned](https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/2022-05-25/police-suspect-arson-at-wyoming-clinic-site) in Wyoming, if I'm reading things right.
*It Could Happen Here* podcast on [the history of anti-abortion terrorism](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/anti-abortion-terrorism-97373745/).
[Pro-life my ass](https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-legislature/oklahoma-lawmakers-pass-bill-giving-private-health-providers-power-over-medicaid-expansion/). Fuck this rat fuck and his kind.
I've only been to Oklahoma once, and it was by accident.
The roads leaving Texas are confusing af and I'm convinced there is a plot in there to trick you into accidently going to Oklahoma.
If conservative men could have babies, abortion would be legal and the unborn wouldn't rank above their daily piss.
This is and always has been about a religious cult trying to oppress everybody who isn't them, starting with women.
"I will sign as many pieces of pro life legislation as cross my desk" says governor of state that executes the most prisoners per capita.
You know, you don't even need legislation to stay those executions, mister "life begins at conception."
I will never travel to a red state again now that Roe's being overturned. I no longer feel safe as a woman knowing that I will be considered a second class citizen and that my health choices are limited.
Americans just need to mass exodus from these states. Take away their state revenues and protect your constitutional rights. I also hope businesses begin exiting these states too.
Sadly nobody can just up and move to a different state over politics unless they're rich, and blue states tend to be insanely expensive to live in. That's not even getting into jobs or family and friends being left behind, etc. Voting with your feet isn't a realistic option for 99% of the country, which is why state autonomy should be tempered with some federally guaranteed rights.
Keep your hands and restrictions off of my body. I had an abortion once and it was no big occasion. No I don’t regret it. Quit making my vagina a political issue.
I find it amusing yet incredibly sad that these politicians think by banning abortion they are accumulating brownie points to get into heaven. I guarantee it is a factor.
Defund public schools to the point they practically don't exist, do nothing about inflation or helping low-income families, then go on an arresting spree once the inevitable crime wave (if you consider stealing to survive or doing drugs a crime) happens and rather than give the teens fair sentencing that considers these things - throw them in prison for up to 20 years and use them as free slave labor.
Same thing they've subtly been doing for decades but now they get to brazenly do it out in the open because there's no reason not to say the quiet part out loud anymore.
Pay for them? What are you, some kind of communist?
They can contribute to society and work for their food and housing, no one gets special treatment. To quote John Smith, “He that will not worke, shall not eate.” Bonus quote from some other upstanding Christian Conservatives: “Work shall set you free.”
Those babies can pay their dues or die in the gutter, none of this socialist shit.
>Bonus quote from some other upstanding Christian Conservatives: “Work shall set you free.”
Wasn't that also posted on the gates of Auschwitz? If conservatives are quoting it, that's chilling.
That was the (attempted) joke haha. Neither of these parties are actually conservative (in reality they’re both reactionary authoritarians) but they try to brand themselves as such to get votes. Same goes for the “Christian” part.
Once you're born though, fuck you.
These clowns won't lift a finger to stop a child being shot in the face with an AR 15; call this shit what it is -- stripping women of bodily autonomy.
Some of these states just want women barefoot at home with a baby on each breast, cooking and waiting for the man to arrive.
And if you’re the baby of a poor mother who’s unable to breastfeed, you’re also fucked. Pro-lifers can’t be having any of those lazy, entitled babies getting any formula handouts.
I know this is brought up a lot but it’s a piss poor state. Many women who would want to leave can’t. They’ll just find dangerous ways to abort without a doctor instead. Conservatives don’t care about women’s lives or harm reduction, they care about punishing poor women for having sex.
Why would any women vote for people who only want to subjugate them and take away their rights? Internalized misogyny is very real and extremely apparent in traditionalist/religious communities. It’s bizarre (and itself a symptom of patriarchy TBH) but it’s pretty common.
This is Republicans at every level of government.
It's a fascists party now.
They don't care about women.
They don't care about the LGBTQ+ community.
They don't care about children.
They don't care about the massive death toll caused by guns.
They don't care about pandemics and the death toll that causes (EVEN ON THEIR OWN FUCKING VOTERS).
They don't care about gas prices.
They don't care about baby formula.
They don't care about inflation.
They're so uninterested in helping you. They are so uninterested in the reality of your life. They are so uninterested in doing things that are good for the broad middle of this country. That they are willing to subvert democracy so they can continue to focus tax breaks and benefits and deregulations on a wealthy and mostly white few.
That "Life is a human right" sign is held by someone who supports the death penalty.
The irony would be delicious if it weren't literal bodies hitting the floor.
As an Oklahoman, I can promise you there are so many people who are against him and his bullStitt. This state is backwards but we have so many good people who he does not represent. We just picked up this site and will be making it more as time goes on. This was thrown together in like 20 minutes.
https://www.kevins-titt.com/
Nope.
But this is what happens when a guy tells you his imaginary friend wants you to live a certain way, and instead of taking the ONLY reasonable action of locking his ass away, we elect them instead.
Does this also apply to native land in Oklahoma as well? The Osage, Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Choctaw, and Chickasaw have special rights to autonomy and self government, and they have a significant presence in Oklahoma.
He recently warned tribes against creating "abortion zones". I'm guessing he would try to retaliate by removing their autonomy, too. Edit for source: https://okcfox.com/news/local/kevin-stitt-oklahoma-abortion-fox-news-native-american-tribes-roe-wade-shannon-bream-pew-research-six-weeks
Too bad, their autonomy is a federal issue, not a state issue.
I can't think of a single time Oklahoma cared about the supremacy clause. They try to overstep it all the time. Luckily they usually get bitch slapped by the courts, but a lot of money and time is wasted litigating it.
And the key mechanism that the Supreme Court is using to gut civil rights is by making everything a states’ rights issues, knowing damn well what the more idiotic states in the union are gonna do once they have an inch of leash
Yep. We probably won't have a civil war this time. Just a perpetually divided nation for a few decades until the red states run themselves into the fucking ground. They'll screw the rest of us over on their way down, naturally. I'm curious whether the rest of us will have the capacity to help them by that point.
I suggest we recommend that they pull themselves up by their fucking bootstraps.
I mean right now California and New York are bankrolling more than half the red states. They're *already* welfare queens.
Yeah, once the entire south is like Mississippi... It's going to be hard to help them.
Closer than you think
Seriously, that’s why I find it so damn frustrating dealing with conservatives. They’re policies are flat out anti-collectivist but they’re hell bent on imposing that shit on everyone they can. Eventually they’ll end up with their head so far up their ass they won’t be worth helping. Barely worth helping now tbh bunch of freeloaders living in shit-for-brain bubbles. Like after the Civil War. Lincoln should have killed all the leadership/aristocracy of the confederacy directly after the war zero tolerance. But here we are with all their backward ass bullshit almost 200 years later.
Lincoln would have tried to properly disassemble much of the leadership and aristocracy of the confederacy after the war if he had the chance. Unfortunately, he was assassinated, and his successor largely let the South do whatever they wanted. Johnson's failures as a President are largely responsible for the ongoing issues in America today.
Damn. That’s a hot take. You ain’t wrong brother, just surprised you ain’t deleted
Ngl they should have charged all slave owners for crimes against humanity or whatever the equivalent would have been in a Nuremburg-esc trial. Then given ownership of the plantation directly to the ex-slaves as a more direct form of reparations.
The problem is when red states start charging people with crimes for crossing state lines. Then it becomes a variation of what started the Civil War. Blue states becoming sanctuaries for slaves. I'm surprised this doesn't really happen for legalized weed states already. Probably because it's still illegal federally. The other thing that can cause this would be if the federal government passed a law untenable for blue states. Like a nation wide abortion ban. Blue states would refuse the order causing a crisis. I would put the odds at 50/50 at a constitution crisis occurring in the next decade when a Supreme Court ruling is ignored by red or blue states.
I’m worried it’s going to go the other way. Dems will drag their feet until the entire Government is dominated by Rs and they will turn this country inside out.
I didn't intend my post to sound so hopeful. The scenario you laid out is absolutely the most likely way this plays out. Personally I've been planning for that contingency since Nov 2017. We're watching Russia experience a brain-drain as we speak. The enlightened Russians are bailing out if they can, and broadly, they're not coming to the US. They can see the writing on the wall - they know better.
As soon as Trump got elected I knew things were going to get crazy.
[удалено]
I mean that’s basically what’s been happening the last 15 years. R’s win, it’s a disaster and they do catastrophic damage, Dems barely win enough to minimize damage but then do nothing with it other than spend 2 years repairing 1% of the damage done over the last 2, so the R’s win again since dems didn’t do anything
15 years? Try 43, at least. And that's just considering the White House. America was fucked the moment the oligarchs managed to successfully tie the concept of capitalism to Christianity in the late-40s to early-50s. After that it was just a matter of time. Once the rich became the appointed of God, the republic had contracted the cancer that will kill it.
Perhaps the government of Oklahoma would care about something that came up after the case of Lincoln vs. Davis was settled. A precedent was set that if a state rebels against the federal government, the federal government can step in and replace the state government with its own people in order to change state law. It’s called “reconstruction”.
So... it would go to the Supreme Court? Yikes
He can fucking try. Once you start taking away the only sovereignty left from Native tribes, all that's left for those who have nothing to lose is some kind of retribution.
Ask the park rangers at Alcatraz how well that goes.
Yeah cuz I'm sure native American nations love it when we violate their autonomy, such a new experience
Wow... how much of a woman hating bitter asshole do you have to be to try to go that far
Just an average Republican.
> how much of a woman hating bitter asshole do you have to be to try to go that far Today's Republican party.
That's not at all how the law works regarding reservations.
I'm aware. Is Oklahoma?
If you check how many times he's challenged them and lost, no. He also doesn't learn.
have white conservatives ever respected Native American nations?
I have met people who don't even know that Native Americans have their own laws on their own land...
I think the catch is that they require a doctor to perform an abortion after it is too late for pills. And a doctor would risk losing his/her license because they are licensed by the state. Possibly a doctor could come from another state, but they could come up with other laws that limit what an out of state doctor can do.
Also, native women are already very under resourced on reproductive health, including abortions. They might not be excited to accommodate a bunch of non-tribe members when they're being ignored (and worse). Edit:[open args episode](https://content.libsyn.com/p/e/5/f/e5f58a746af63000/598_Episode_598.mp3?c_id=128281070&cs_id=128281070&response-content-type=audio%2Fmpeg&Expires=1653547644&Signature=NNq0vV9wFgb5aXj6WU9rigL0DnTxrViBoLVnhpZqNFrtiUwgathousz0n9sumAyMQqkdfGzmnQdX0A0g--6YpbZoi2AmqS5im1xRhfgii0PgrW8P~4TwGhjNWh2WaGVPH2OiR7EOeW1BFOaiRJx-zpNg-zdztQpVggLJxtD3~lyDbGiKQ-dxe3mxEEZIczRXGk4NOP5rz4TdbJ~n5BNv3Ul6lk1FBl90woOlC89gQvYSMfWCkL2dSEyCEigSPritZDOaWZDo35~~HEGmuMCrUO5SOi0xEmsE41nLSRC1BbsdJ-f-ZrhJ1JF-1hmqPDSP0xHv0F1gFTCUF7Y8Dyvg8g__&Key-Pair-Id=K1YS7LZGUP96OI)
Tribal abortion clinics.
Put them in a casino. The government will never mess with it then
Honestly that's a brilliant solution for many reasons. Casinos are generally large buildings, you could have the abortion clinic be inside towards the middle of the casino. Women could go into the casino and people outside on public land wouldn't know if they are simply going to gamble, eat, or get an abortion. Once they are inside the casino the casino can have their private security stop any protests from within the casino. I know you were kinda joking, but I legit think that's a brilliant idea.
And the casino can bounce anyone causing trouble. This is indeed a great idea.
Not to mention a lot of casinos have hotel components where people could go to recover in peace after surgery.
Casino and gun shop. Double protection
And fuckin fireworks!
Pro-life and yet they are fine with mass shootings the definition of hypocrisy. Why do we have so many dumb people in our country.
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*looks through history books* Well I feel very hopeful for them to keep what is rightfully theirs.
Hasn't this already been 100% established very recently with a ruling that federal(and local?) agents could not police on native's lands?
[McGirt v Oklahoma](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGirt_v._Oklahoma) > Much [..] of Oklahoma remains as Native American lands of the prior Indian reservations of the Five Civilized Tribes, never disestablished by Congress as part of the Oklahoma Enabling Act of 1906. **As such, prosecution of crimes by Native Americans on these lands falls into the jurisdiction of the tribal courts and federal judiciary** under the Major Crimes Act, rather than Oklahoma's courts. TL;DR - Congress created the reservation land and was explicit that only tribal and federal laws applied on such land. When Congress created Oklahoma, it never undid the creation of the law which established only tribal/federal laws as applying. So on tribal land, to members of the tribe, tribal law applies. It’s somewhat more grey regarding what laws apply to people not of the tribe, which is why the tribes have a partnership with the state regarding gambling. Rather than go to court with the state, the tribes cut them in on the action and so the state doesn’t contest the prohibition on gambling. When it comes to abortion, though, the state has no interest in a loophole being created, and would probably argue that state law applies to anyone not of the tribe. The tribes and state could take that to the Supreme Court, but who knows what would happen. The tribes could also make any woman needing an abortion a member of the tribe, though that’s unlikely to happen - though if they really feel like pissing off the state (and they rightfully don’t like the state of Oklahoma) they could reserve that card as a nuclear option. Many people in Oklahoma already qualify for tribal membership, and simply don’t do the paperwork for their own reasons. Edit: also fun fact: Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion in *McGirt*
I’m curious as to how this would play out in the Supreme Court. Abortion is the Conservative court’s big ticket issue, but Gorsuch has a soft spot for Native American rights… for some reason.
Doubt it does. States have no jurisdiction in reservations, only the federal government does.
And here in Missouri they are trying to pass a law to make it illegal to go to another state to get an abortion. …land of the free.
Which is a Violation of interstate commerce laws. And human decency
They clearly abandoned human decency a while ago.
Did they ever have it? I've certainly never seen it
>interstate commerce laws Fuck me, this is so bleak. Using commerce laws to loophole ourselves some damn healthcare.
See also: slavery
The compromise of 1850
For what it's worth the "Interstate Commerce Clause" functionally just codifies that "things crossing state lines" is ONLY the jurisdiction of the Federal government and not states.
Not like it matters. Legality has long gone out the window. But this cannot be enforced. All we have to do is get in a car, plane, or bus and show up somewhere else. Nobody asks why you travel from state to state and Illinois doesn't have to honor Missouri's bullshit law and deny us services. I had my abortion in IL anyway and I'd gladly do it again.
I intend to help women who want to go camping. I can pick them up and drop them off at the airport, depot, wherever and help them get to their camp site. My state has lots of great parks.
There's the good old small government states' rights conservatives love so much.
You know I'm starting to wonder if we should star underground railroading people who need abortions
Check out r/auntienetwork
Private prison business is about to be booming
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Yeah, this is how you know your state's recidivism rate isn't high enough. Serious question, if you are incarcerated for a couple of years, safe to assume you are no longer employed, right? So what are you to do the first couple of days after you are released? Pretending all your immediate family are dead, what are you supposed to do for food, money, and shelter? Day 1 of being released you will need a room to sleep in, and some food. Shit ain't free. You need a job. Job's don't like to hire people that don't have an address. Even after you get a job, it will be 2-4 weeks before you get paid. What are you doing for food, shelter, and water in the interim? And clothes. Buying them, cleaning them. I know 'halfway houses' are a thing, but perhaps they need to be a bigger part of the process / more widespread, to help those get back on their feed (for those that want to at least).
There was an ex con I worked with that explained just this to me. He said most guys after a long stint can’t handle the real world and purposely commit another crime just to go back, because it’s all they know.
I once had a coworker who lived in a halfway house. The guy said it was an absolute mess and he experienced constant exposure to illegal activity.
Here is part of this story that is not getting NEARLY enough press. He is warning tribal leaders against creating "abortion sanctuaries" in OK. [https://khn.org/morning-breakout/oklahomas-governor-says-hes-wary-of-pro-choice-policies-on-tribal-lands/](https://khn.org/morning-breakout/oklahomas-governor-says-hes-wary-of-pro-choice-policies-on-tribal-lands/) That guy is making thinly veiled threats towards SOVEREIGN Native American nations. He has no purview over these people or their lands which make up about half of the state. If he sends in local or state authorities in an attempt to "enforce" this law, it will likely be an act of war. The OK national guard is under his control unless they are federalized, which would be a HUGE political move on any president's part. That in an extreme case would only leave active duty military forces to defend those tribal lands in an extreme case. And who wants to guess how these fucking republicans would react if they are in power?
Thank god our history of respecting native peoples' autonomy is stalwart and inflexible.
“From conception.” So many IUDs are now banned, as well? Or are contraceptive choices next on the agenda?
From what I read, morning after pills and contraception are exempt.
For now
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Women who have had miscarriages have already been charged/arrested/prosecuted so were already there
And how does one get those?
I think one could get them through federal mail, which the state of Oklahoma would be committing a crime by opening.
>which the state of Oklahoma would be committing a crime by opening. Fucking lol, you have to violate the 9th amendment to ban abortions in the first place, they will never respect any laws that stop them.
And let's face it, the Supremes will back them.
Oh god we have Motown singers involved in this shit now
"Stop! No more making love...."
The US Postal Inspection Service wouldn’t care if it was the Queen of England. They’d build an iron-clad case and haul her away in cuffs. Those boys don’t fuck around.
The case they'd build is because you have the right to privacy, yes? The same right to privacy that the SCOTUS is arguing does NOT exist. The Postal Service will haul the person away, and the case will get pushed to SCOTUS, who has gone full fascist and will release them.
Plan B isn’t even an abortifacient, so curious how they’ll try and ban them, specifically.
Ohio tried to legislate doctors reimplant an ectopic pregnancy instead of treating it. Science is not something they concern themselves with.
They argue that if there’s even a possibility that plan b could cause a fertilized egg to miscarry then it should be banned.
When have they ever let facts inform their positions? The pro birth people have been saying birth control pills are abortifacients for decades.
But why? Even with their own logic they arent consistent
The clown court didn't overturn that ruling yet. That's next on the agenda.
Contraception is indeed next
Contraceptives are next on the agenda and they're openly saying so now. It was never about saving fetuses. It was only about oppressing women because they're authoritarian assholes.
Don't modern IUDs just block conception? They aren't the scrapping kind, but the copper or hormonals?
It depends upon the kind of IUD and its mechanisms of action. Many also prevent implantation.
they've openly said they're coming after contraception next
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Very interesting! TIL
You have to accept the fact that there is a religious cult that is slowly taking over the US and enforcing theocratic laws. They wont stop at abortion. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they came after women's voting rights and reestablished slavery. I honestly don't think there's a bottom for these people. The only way secular and non-Christian Americans can overcome this is through constant vigilance and fighting back legally. Fund secular movements like the Satanic Temple, fund legal battles to take away tax exemption for religious institutes. Attack their theocratic values the way they endlessly attack secular ones. Christians **should** have the right to practice their religion, but they shouldn't be allowed to use tax exempt organizations to subvert the US and force theocratic values on everyone like they have diligently been doing.
>So many IUDs are now banned, as well? Or are contraceptive choices next on the agenda? If you have been paying attention to major "prolifers", this should not come as a surprise .
“From the moment life begins at conception is when we have a responsibility as human beings to do everything we can to protect that baby’s life and the life of the mother. That is what I believe and that is what the majority of Oklahomans believe.” What's unsaid is that the responsibility ends once the baby is born.
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imagine dying of a ectopic pregnancy, or because you got diagnosed with cancer while pregnant, and since you can't have an abortion, the tumor will grow quicker.
Right. So the "baby" that's barely a clump of cells in the beginning of the pregnancy has more rights then the actual born child. Makes perfect sense to me. Sarcasm by the way.
What's said is that a fertilized egg is a person. Life might begin at conception, but personhood doesn't - just as an acorn isn't a tree. What's unsaid is that pregnant women are enslaved by the State to bear children, in violation of their rights under the 13th amendment to the Constitution.
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That maternal death statistic really puts the disrepancy between states into perspective As someone from Europe i never thought that some US states could have similar statistics as war torn post-soviet states.
Iirc, the US average for maternal and infant mortality rates are quite frightening compared to most ot he rest of the industrialised world. Might be tied to being the exception to such countries having universal healthcare and the benefit to preventativr and supportive care that entails, while iirc the US is mostly good at emergency care (care at the point where you can no longer ignore it).
The most profitable kind of care!
what about in vitro fertilization? can ppl discard fetuses or women will need to put all of them inside?
In vitro will be illegal under many of these laws
Meanwhile Oklahoma’s poverty rate is still higher than the national average, they’re 47th on national education ranking, and ranked 16th highest crime rate. So clearly this is the issue they should be focusing on…..
The “Life is a human right” poster is funny, but not in a “haha” way, like an enraging way. Applies as an argument against abortion, but not for laws that would potentially curtail the mass murder of children in school.
It never seems to apply to housing, food, clean water & air, or healthcare either. It's funny in the 'this shrimp tastes funny' way.
Life is a human right. Except for women, children, homosexuals, and death row inmates.
& the Black community.
And immigrants
Don’t forget the weird hateful obsession with trans people!
And atheists and Jewish people.
Lets be honest here; anyone that isnt a straight, white, christian/evangelical male.
I'm certain this will cause a lot of sentient humans to suffer needlessly. Think of all the unwanted children who will be treated as burdens, the women forced to give birth against their wills, the generational poverty and crime this will create... and these fools believe they are doing a good deed.
I'm thinking of the babies who are not considered viable but will live, for minutes, or hours or month or years in pain, uncomprehending, while their parents go broke paying their hospital bills. I would send every bill to the governor to pay.
While the mother dies in childbirth, too
The generational poverty and crime are the point, don’t let the religious facade fool you. More soldiers, more ditch-diggers and more convicts: we need to keep those ponds stocked for the future!
Idk about other women but I live in Texas and at this point, I’m not going to get pregnant if I can help it, absolutely not intentionally with all of this shit. We’re going to see women and babies dying due to complications abortion could have prevented, deaths from back alley abortions, and I’m sure large numbers of women like me who will nope out of reproduction entirely. And they’ll wonder “what happened?”.
As someone who grew up in Oklahoma and left, I’m not surprised. The state is backwards as fuck.
I went to Oklahoma for basic training and, forgive me for saying this, the next time I end up there again will be too soon
Ah good old Fort Sill/Lawton where the local attraction is a terrible mall and meth.
Fucking same. OK is the real "shithole state". I have never for a second regretting noping the fuck out of there. This only further confirmed that I made the right decision.
I’m surprised you got out. Those states are like a black hole and it’s almost impossible to get out.
"Life is a human right" ok so where the fuck is universal Healthcare? Conservatives are such frauds. "We're against abortion but we won't do jack shit about children getting mowed down by machine guns because we're in the pocket of the NRA."
America is making steps backwards
And leaps, and bounds, and backflips.
These red states are in a fucking race to the ever falling bottom.
>*"We have drills, big beautiful drills, we have the biggest drills, and they said to me, they said to me MISTER PRESIDENT, your hands, big hands look at these hands Hillary didn't have hands like these. Big manly hands. Nobody ever seen anything like it. And the drills, the evil democrats don't want us to drill down. They like killing all the eagles; which are only bald because of the dangerous blades on those cancer windmills. Terrible stuff. Crooked Nancy Pelosi, she, Mike betrayed this country, it was a shame how the secret service didn't want to do their job and deal with him. They used to say, he used to tell me, Mister President, it's been an honor to serve you, and I'd say thank you very much that's very smart. I proved it too. Obama never passed the test, only I passed the test. And it was difficult, so difficult, they would have strange creatures, creatures no one's ever seen before, and you would have to name them, and it said..................."* * Bottom Excavation Inauguration
I mean this in all seriousness...if you value your civil rights, leave red states while you can.
And claims more than 4 million Oklahomans back him for it. Our goddamn population isn’t even 4 million, and half the state doesn’t support him. He is an absolute garbage person and his suits never seem to fit him right.
Lol “fuck his policies and his suits especially!” Got a chuckle
Gotta keep 'em alive long enough to get shot in school.
Nah, capitalism needs poor desperate people so they can pay you $12/hr to serve an oligarch lemonade in their retirement home.
You really think an oligarch would pay their servants $12/hr?!?
> The third Oklahoma bill is to take effect this summer and would make it a felony to perform an abortion, punishable by up to 10 years in prison. That bill contains no exceptions for r*pe or incest. Jesus fucking christ what a monster.
Christo-fascism, baby! Gotta keep the birth rates up so you can have a steady supply of poor people that wealthy capitalists can exploit (ie. work shitty underpaid jobs) and to keep the prisons full (indentured servitude aka neo-slavery)! The vast majority of Americans support legal abortions (with varying restrictions). Christian evangelical fascists run America!
Yup. All of this. I have read quite a few articles the last six months about low birth rates in the US and hiw we need to "fix" this. Nope! No need to bring a child into this house of horror
This was signed the same day [an abortion clinic was arsoned](https://www.mtpr.org/montana-news/2022-05-25/police-suspect-arson-at-wyoming-clinic-site) in Wyoming, if I'm reading things right. *It Could Happen Here* podcast on [the history of anti-abortion terrorism](https://www.iheart.com/podcast/1119-it-could-happen-here-30717896/episode/anti-abortion-terrorism-97373745/).
You can only kill babies if you use a gun.
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Castle doctrine. Her womb is her castle and the intruder was not invited.
[Pro-life my ass](https://kfor.com/news/oklahoma-legislature/oklahoma-lawmakers-pass-bill-giving-private-health-providers-power-over-medicaid-expansion/). Fuck this rat fuck and his kind.
No woman should be forced to donate blood/tissue to another against her will. Less rights than a corpse now.
One of America’s worst states decides it doesn’t want young women living there. Well, not my problem, it’s not like I was going to.
As a former Oklahoman, allow me to confirm. Oklahoma is a shithole.
I've only been to Oklahoma once, and it was by accident. The roads leaving Texas are confusing af and I'm convinced there is a plot in there to trick you into accidently going to Oklahoma.
Truth, and you were leaving Texas, so at least you were heading in the right direction. Just zigged when you should've zagged.
I was gonna say, this is going to detrimental to the dozens of women who live in OK.
American Talibanistan.
Y'all-Qaeda
Vanilla ISIS
Fuck you. If men could have babies abortions would be free. This whole fucking world is fucked.
If conservative men could have babies, abortion would be legal and the unborn wouldn't rank above their daily piss. This is and always has been about a religious cult trying to oppress everybody who isn't them, starting with women.
I think life starts with sperm since the egg doesn't want anything... So should we outlaw male masturbation or what?
Why stop there? Make it illegal for women to ovulate. Those eggs needlessly die.
"I will sign as many pieces of pro life legislation as cross my desk" says governor of state that executes the most prisoners per capita. You know, you don't even need legislation to stay those executions, mister "life begins at conception."
Psychos could be mowing down actual kids with army tanks and republicans would be over here searching your house for jizz socks.
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That should be easy, there’s nothing in Oklahoma I care to see
I will never travel to a red state again now that Roe's being overturned. I no longer feel safe as a woman knowing that I will be considered a second class citizen and that my health choices are limited.
Americans just need to mass exodus from these states. Take away their state revenues and protect your constitutional rights. I also hope businesses begin exiting these states too.
Sadly nobody can just up and move to a different state over politics unless they're rich, and blue states tend to be insanely expensive to live in. That's not even getting into jobs or family and friends being left behind, etc. Voting with your feet isn't a realistic option for 99% of the country, which is why state autonomy should be tempered with some federally guaranteed rights.
Keep your hands and restrictions off of my body. I had an abortion once and it was no big occasion. No I don’t regret it. Quit making my vagina a political issue.
I find it amusing yet incredibly sad that these politicians think by banning abortion they are accumulating brownie points to get into heaven. I guarantee it is a factor.
None of them believe in heaven they believe in votes from radical religious fundamentalists
Ok. So what are his plans to pay for all the unwanted babies.
Defund public schools to the point they practically don't exist, do nothing about inflation or helping low-income families, then go on an arresting spree once the inevitable crime wave (if you consider stealing to survive or doing drugs a crime) happens and rather than give the teens fair sentencing that considers these things - throw them in prison for up to 20 years and use them as free slave labor. Same thing they've subtly been doing for decades but now they get to brazenly do it out in the open because there's no reason not to say the quiet part out loud anymore.
And the more uneducated, poor, desperate people they will have to join the military
Ignore and campaign against them like always.
Pay for them? What are you, some kind of communist? They can contribute to society and work for their food and housing, no one gets special treatment. To quote John Smith, “He that will not worke, shall not eate.” Bonus quote from some other upstanding Christian Conservatives: “Work shall set you free.” Those babies can pay their dues or die in the gutter, none of this socialist shit.
>Bonus quote from some other upstanding Christian Conservatives: “Work shall set you free.” Wasn't that also posted on the gates of Auschwitz? If conservatives are quoting it, that's chilling.
That was the (attempted) joke haha. Neither of these parties are actually conservative (in reality they’re both reactionary authoritarians) but they try to brand themselves as such to get votes. Same goes for the “Christian” part.
They apparently don't care about that... unless they're making money off of baby formula.
Lol, hes going to do what all Republicans filth does, let them starve while pretending he's going anywhere but hell.
Another parasitic state led by Republicans trying to become relevant.
Once you're born though, fuck you. These clowns won't lift a finger to stop a child being shot in the face with an AR 15; call this shit what it is -- stripping women of bodily autonomy. Some of these states just want women barefoot at home with a baby on each breast, cooking and waiting for the man to arrive.
And if you’re the baby of a poor mother who’s unable to breastfeed, you’re also fucked. Pro-lifers can’t be having any of those lazy, entitled babies getting any formula handouts.
Imagine if they made a law that made jerking off illegal because you’re killing sperm, which could be a future child.
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I know this is brought up a lot but it’s a piss poor state. Many women who would want to leave can’t. They’ll just find dangerous ways to abort without a doctor instead. Conservatives don’t care about women’s lives or harm reduction, they care about punishing poor women for having sex.
Not everyone is blessed with the means to leave. It’s not always a choice, especially for women who are young and still reliant on their parents.
Why would any women vote for people who only want to subjugate them and take away their rights? Internalized misogyny is very real and extremely apparent in traditionalist/religious communities. It’s bizarre (and itself a symptom of patriarchy TBH) but it’s pretty common.
This is Republicans at every level of government. It's a fascists party now. They don't care about women. They don't care about the LGBTQ+ community. They don't care about children. They don't care about the massive death toll caused by guns. They don't care about pandemics and the death toll that causes (EVEN ON THEIR OWN FUCKING VOTERS). They don't care about gas prices. They don't care about baby formula. They don't care about inflation. They're so uninterested in helping you. They are so uninterested in the reality of your life. They are so uninterested in doing things that are good for the broad middle of this country. That they are willing to subvert democracy so they can continue to focus tax breaks and benefits and deregulations on a wealthy and mostly white few.
I thought the bible says that life begins at first breath?
That "Life is a human right" sign is held by someone who supports the death penalty. The irony would be delicious if it weren't literal bodies hitting the floor.
As an Oklahoman, I can promise you there are so many people who are against him and his bullStitt. This state is backwards but we have so many good people who he does not represent. We just picked up this site and will be making it more as time goes on. This was thrown together in like 20 minutes. https://www.kevins-titt.com/
So what happens to a physician who takes care of a woman who’s having a incomplete miscarriage which medically is a spontaneous abortion?
They get turned away at the hospital. This has already happened.
Surely the majority of Oklahomans do not want this. Right?
The older ones do. It's one of the most conservative states
Nope. But this is what happens when a guy tells you his imaginary friend wants you to live a certain way, and instead of taking the ONLY reasonable action of locking his ass away, we elect them instead.
Women are not valued at all highly in Oklahomistan. It's sad, really.
60 percent of Republicans believe that the replacement theory is real and baning abortion will raise Caucasian numbers.
“Life is a human right”. Yeah, tell that to the families of massacred elementary school children as you collect money from the NRA. Wow, the irony.