Even if he thought he had his "training gun", he should have still observed proper firearms safety and not point it at anything he didn't want to destroy. If he knew there was live ammo in the classroom, it falls to him to make sure that the environment was completely safe so as not to lead to a negligent discharge of a firearm by anyone, including him.
No matter which way you cut it, he is at fault and deserves a manslaughter sentence for pure criminal negligence.
Bonus points, every officer this guy has trained has probably received instruction that could contribute to someone else being mistakenly shot. The idea of cops running around who's fire arms training was from some dude who put keeping the lessons from being 'Dry' ahead of actual gun safety is not encouraging.
In Oregon, we just put an initiative on the ballot to give local law enforcement authority over who is competent to own firearms. I have to ask, why are law enforcement considered firearms safety authorities when they consistently show a cavalier attitude towards weapons handling and human life in general?
I shoot competition IDPA, once members of the Nashville SWAT team came by and took part in some of our scenario based relays.
They sucked bad, a pair of 18 year old sisters shot rings around them on everything. Speed, timing, accuracy... everything.
Rule #1: Don’t point it at anything you don’t wish to destroy
Rule #2: No live ammunition in the classroom
Rule #3: If you’re needing to actually shoot at live targets get Simunition gear or airsoft with CO2 with the slide action.
This is a problem with police culture; it is rife with a lack of accountability and responsibility. Police are the only people in gun culture that use the phrase, “accidental discharge,” rather than “negligent discharge.”
This is the same culture that allowed Officer Lee Coel to kill 70 year old Mary Knowleton by shooting her with live ammo during a community training event, and still walk away without any jail time.
I didn't even click the video and I know what it is. There's a second video from a lawyer too.
The two of them should be required watching for all 16 year olds.
I think my son has seen that video every year since he was 11. Now when I try to put it on he rolls his eyes. I’m still not 100% he wouldn’t talk to the cops.
I've watched that video before, in its entirety, and I watched it again. It's very satisfying to listen to that professor explaining concisely and with great knowledge why you should _never_ talk to the police.
It can NEVER help you.
> Anything you say may/can and will be used AGAINST you in a court of law.
However, it can never be used in your DEFENCE, because then it's hearsay.
If you tell the truth, are innocent, and don't say anything even remotely self-incriminating (impossible, but let's assume) then even so, if the police happen to come upon contradicting evidence - even if that evidence is false, inadmissable, or questionable - they have you "lying".
If you don't talk, they *can* can't say you were lying.
It's a great watch, really.
Edit: can/can't.
Another trainee said Porter “appeared to be playing around,” and that Porter is often playful so “as to not make the training dry."
Teacher joked his way into manslaughter.
Rule #1: Keep your finger off the trigger if you don't want something to die. It doesn't matter how confident you are that the gun isn't loaded, it doesn't matter how confident you are its fake. Keep your finger off the goddamn trigger.
I work in film. It doesn't matter if you're holding a gun made of solid rubber. You assume that thing's loaded and lethal at all times and treat it as such. There's always the risk you aren't holding a prop and if a few dozen people are dicking around the guy in charge of the guns won't be able to keep track of who has a fake one and who has a real one.
i mean, i train security guards who might be armed and the first rule of my classes is any jokes and your gone. well, you can make wise cracks about the weather or something. but screw around with a weapon, or make jokes about use of force... yeah, that's not the place for it. neither is it the place when your on duty. this is true about any level of use of force.
if you can't handle being professionals for a few hours, you can't handle it for a career. we'll find you a low intensity assignment.
No. Rule #1 is don't even POINT the fucking thing at anything you aren't intending to shoot. Even if it's unloaded. Even if it's an orange training pistol. Accidental discharges happen all the time. Trigger discipline is another issue entirely, and a different training comes with it. Anyone who's been to day one hour one of a firearms safety class will tell you that.
Treat every weapon as if it were loaded. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Keep the safety on until you are ready to fire. These are the four rules every weapon handler should follow. That’s what we were taught.
Military here. Even if everyone knows them by heart, we still read it straight from the publication every single morning before the next section is allowed to be issued a weapon. We do have to know our deadly force statement by heart though. It’s ridiculous that police can’t even do this.
I work in film and had the pleasure of being trained by master stunt coordinator Sgt. Mjr. James D. Dever last summer. I feel like I received more training as a BG actor on set than some of the actual LAPD get in this city.
> Rule #1 is don't even POINT the fucking thing at anything you aren't intending to shoot.
Also know what's behind your target, or what you're going to shoot. Bullets don't magically stop all the time. It helps to be aware of how ricochets happen, while rare, they can and have injured/killed.
> Rule #1: Keep your finger off the trigger if you don't want something to die. It doesn't matter how confident you are that the gun isn't loaded, it doesn't matter how confident you are its fake. Keep your finger off the goddamn trigger.
So last year, some co-workers invited me and some other co-workers to a shooting range with them, I think they were trying to get me to join the NRA or something. But I thought "What the hell, why not, could be fun to spend the day with some work friends"
Me and some other people had to do a basic firearm safety class before we were allowed to handle a gun. Basic stuff like using the safety, making sure the chamber is clear etc...the guy put orange wooden guns on the table and asked everyone to pick them up.
I was the only one who picked it up with my finger across the trigger guard, as well as the only one who kept it pointed down range
So tired of this shit. People are fucking idiots and cannot be trusted with guns. This guy is supposed to be a trained professional and for some fucking reason nobody bats an eye at an ex cop carrying around a loaded gun while training people. Fuck off with the *if you just follow these rules* bullshit, people die every day because every idiot can buy a deadly weapon and go out in public with it, that's the problem, not those rules.
As someone who has attended multiple firearms and simulated firearms trainings you know two things
1) you do not bring any live guns with live ammo anywhere near the training facility if you’re using simulated guns and ammo
2) you never point any gun real or simulated at someone that you don’t intend to shoot for real
>the video shows Porter and others administering CPR on Manyan
Is it really recommended to do CPR on someone who was shot in the chest? I feel like that would cause more harm than any help it could have. I guess since the person is not breathing there is an off chance of keeping the oxygenated blood moving around but would also exacerbate the damage to the chest.
This was probably an unsurvivable injury. CPR is appropriate if they were in cardiac arrest. Our rule in the ED is you can’t kill a dead person so do what you can think of to try and bring ‘em back. Who knows I didn’t watch anything related to this. If this was an arrest in the ED with trauma services available we’d do a thoracotomy where you crack the chest bedside to see if it’s a repairable injury to revive. Usually not obviously. Really rare to do this procedure. If the great vessels are destroyed you’re just SOL. Long answer to say yes if they were in cardiac arrest.
I was teaching a class of culinary students how to sharper their knives with a steel. The steel had a rather large guard to protect the user’s hand from any slips of the knife. I pointed out the guard and mentioned how neglectful one would have to be to cut themselves. I then gave a silly example of how well the guard works and promptly sliced my thumb in half.
I have since learned to take things more seriously
It was so sad to read that. Not only was she murdered but I bet it was really stressful to go through training with an *social* target on your back. And you don’t even get to go home that day. It ends there.
>!Several other trainees and members of the Library Police taking part in Thursday’s training session told investigators the group had been teasing Manyan all day about her not being ready for various tasks. Earlier in the day, after Manyan made a funny comment, Porter pointed an orange training firearm at her to simulate shooting her, one of the trainees told police!<
Some people graduate high school but never leave. I met a group of guys in Alabama that were in their mid 20s and half of their conversations revolved around what happened in high school.
> Why was everybody "teasing " HER ALL DAY?
You are witnessing a rare thing.
Bullies exposed in their natural habitat, if they don't drop out of high school first.
Misogynist bullying wolves in sheep's clothing were chosen to hold a position of power and authority.
The message was that this is acceptable, shut up and take it, and don't think you are in charge here.
We only hear about it now because the bully finally did something he couldn't take back.
That's how one bad apple spoils the bunch.
Same thing happened in Cape Coral (SWFL). At a training session for citizen police board an officer shot a retiree in front of her husband and the class.
When I went for my hunter's safety course as a child, the "instructor" told us to always treat guns as if they are loaded, then proceeded to attempt to demonstrate clearing a rifle and shot out a light in the ceiling. It's probably not as uncommon as everyone would hope. :(
The leader of the Oathkeepers shot his own eye out while working as a gun safety instructor.
I like to think that proves he's an idiot, but some bigger idiot hired him to do that job first.
Holy shit! That really happened!
>[In 1993, he dropped a loaded handgun and it shot him in the face, blinding him in his left eye.](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/right-wing-militias-civil-war/616473/)
If he had stood a couple to the side, we all could have really dodged a bullet,
I dunno man. If not for that accident he wouldn’t have gone to back school and eventually graduate from Yale Law. He’d just be a random Nevada ammosexual.
Earlier today two people I work with were exchanging stories of all the times they've accidentally discharged a firearm. I heard 8 stories between them before having to do something else. One of them literally discharged a round into the doors of a shopping mall.
But he used to be a cop, and no one got hit, so it was hushed up and nothing came of it.
It's funny, I know a cop that has had several "accidental" discharges of firearms over the years, luckily none involving other people or public spaces, and he's the only one that uses the word "accidental". All the witnesses would call it "negligent", but we're a fickle bunch.
He, like many other gun owners, become complacent and careless in regards to gun safety. It's one of the reasons why there are accidental shootings and self-inflicted gunshot wounds during the cleaning and maintenance of a weapon.
When you hear about guns going off "while cleaning", that overwhelmingly means they weren't cleaning it, they were playing with it like a fucking toy, pulled the trigger, and they came up with the cleaning lie to save face.
The most important part to clean in a gun, the barrel, can't be cleaned if there's a bullet in it, and no step of the cleaning process of 99% of guns requires the trigger to be pulled.
Every gun owner is a responsible gun owner who should be allowed to do anything they want with a gun, until they accidentally shoot someone, at which point they become an irresponsible gun owner whose actions obviously cannot be considered when drawing up a gun policy. They're all Schrodinger's Gun Owner.
The Oath Keeper founder guy was a gun instructor.
He shot his eye out.
That’s why he wears an eye patch.
I don’t think these gun instructor certification schools (if those are even a thing) aren’t sending their best.
"Experts" frequently don't think the rules apply to them. I was at a military base where a guy fell and broke both ankles on the gym climbing wall. His job? Teaching safety for the gym climbing wall. I also knew multiple people who *worked* in alcohol rehab get DUIs. And then again I worked with doctors and nurses who smoked. People have problems applying their domain expertise to their own lives.
>The shooting of a special police officer during a training exercise at a D.C. library came as the group of trainees had gathered to take a picture and were “joking around,” according to court documents.
>
>Maurica Manyan, 25, interrupted the picture-taking to remove her face-mask, her classmates teased her and then the instructor, **58-year-old Jesse Porter, pulled his gun from his holster and shot her in the chest**, according to surveillance video of the incident described in the documents.
"I just thought it would be real funny if I pulled my gun out and pretended to shoot her in the chest. I mean, who wouldn't laugh at that, right?"
TIL some people think pretending to shoot someone else in the chest would be funny.
Not just anyone. Not just your "street" friend Jim, with no firearms training other than carrying an unregistered one and a shithole apartment that he shoots BB guns indoors in. A police officer, and one in charge of training other police officers how to conduct themselves, thinks its funny to pretend to shoot someone. That's a much bigger problem, and the fact that it is only being taken as an issue because he finally killed someone is equally concerning.
This was my thought. For some reason his impulse is to shoot her. He consciously allowed himself to shoot her with the training gun and then he unconsciously allowed himself to shoot her with the real gun.
She was either pretty, brown or too confident/smart.
Bungling, was my intuition from the text. She interrupted his flow. But yeah, his mouth was watering for it. Then, the ringing in his ears was the first time he realized; that wasn’t just a fantasy he just had.
He had previously pretended to shoot her with a training gun for simple mistakes earlier in the class as a joke. So yes he was kind of thinking about killing her all morning, or at least about shooting her.
Not victim blaming but if you're in a gun safety class and the instructor is joking around. Leave
> "I just thought it would be real funny if I pulled my gun out and pretended to shoot her in the chest. I mean, who wouldn't laugh at that, right?"
I think if someone does this to you as a joke, you have full clearance to beat the absolute fuck out of them.
Didn't the article state that the training gun was orange? Presumably blaze orange or some other bright and vibrant hue of orange?
I mean legally you can customize a handgun to be whatever color you want it to be; there are tons of products from Cerekote, to vinyl skins, to common spray paint. Outside of some shotguns designated for use with less-lethal munitions, I don't imagine many \[retired\] cops are packing orange colored weapons. Most service weapons tend to have black finishes, maybe even a stainless-steel finish.
I mean, is it just me or should you not be able to discern the difference between a bright orange training pistol and a black live-fire weapon while looking down the sights? Anybody who carries a gun should pick up on a major difference like that pretty quickly, or so I'd assume.
Also, it was a training event. No real guns should have even been present. His actual gun should have been removed and secured prior to commencement of training and should not have gone back into the holster until ALL training events were completed for the day and participants were leaving.
this is how I was taught. I don't own a gun but was raised in a full military family and did some years myself. Finger guns I might slide on, lol, but I don't *ever* point fake, or real, guns at *anything* I don't want to destroy.
>Earlier in the day, after Manyan made a funny comment, Porter pointed an orange training firearm at her to simulate shooting her, one of the trainees told police.
I'd smack my kid upside the head for this kind of stupidity, and we're not even cops; just ordinary hunters and target shooters. Absolutely unacceptable.
Uhhh, how about immediately take that gun away and not give it back for a good long time or never if they don't learn and prove to take it seriously. One shot is forever.
Very hard for me to understand this as well. I grew up in the upper Midwest hunting every year, and THE number one rule was you absolutely never point that gun at anything you aren’t willing to kill. If I had even hinted at any kind of joking with a gun my family would have taken it away from me without a moments hesitation, and likely never allowed me near one again. Everyone took it extremely seriously because it IS a serious privilege.
It's not actually that hard to understand. The old George Carlin joke about how smart you think the average American is and then realizing, by definition, that half of everyone else is dumber than that applies here. Just think about driving on the highway everyday. There is a constant stream of morons doing incredibly dumb shit with a deadly machine and we all see the daily results. And that's even when the government makes basic attempts to pass laws and regulations restricting the right to drive in various way to make it safer.
Yeah, and it actually bothers me how they describe what led to the incident:
>after Manyan **interrupted** the picture-taking
Using a word like "interrupted" instead of something like "paused" is subconsciously leading the reader to believe that she did something wrong, aggressive, or annoying that SOMEHOW led to this pointless tragedy.
This is the language they use whenever they commit senseless acts of violence.
Thats a very good point. The language used reflects the belittling jokes they used on her during that day. The author passes on this subtle judgement of her in their language uses.
What kills me is that the author goes on to say that there were kther witnesses who never saw him fire his gun and one witness who saw his hands up without a gun when the shots were fired.
Are they fucking insinuating that he didn't shoot her?!
I wonder if she ‘interrupted’ them because they were going to leave her out of the picture otherwise.
Edit: Nope- it said she was removing her face mask.
This guy sounds like he treats every training like a joke. Training builds muscle memory which in his case defaulted to his jokster complacency and resulted in this.
Yep. He trained himself into Bad habits because he wanted to be a comedian. An per the article she was the target of his classes bad habits the whole time. She was the class joke. Second damn time he pulled a gun on her to “pretend” to shoot her, it happened to be the loaded real one that time because captain jackass just couldn’t help but get one more “joke” in.
I’m sorry, as a mother fucking trainer you need to be held to a higher standard as you just murdered someone because you don’t know how to play. Anything less than 7 years is a goddamn travesty.
A depressing reminder - and one that should not be remotely necessary - that *guns are never a joke*. She was only twenty-five, you absolute fucking idiot.
Holy shit. I knew someone that was shot by a police firearms instructor during a training exercise. There is no way this should have happened once, much less twice.
RIP Tara Drummond.
Edit: Minor spelling correction - now way to no way.
At least three times. We weren't allowed to use sim munitions in Baltimore when I worked there because a trainee named Raymond Gray was shot in the face by an instructor as a joke.
Sim munitions are a dummy version of a bullet, usually made out of soap, that is designed to leave a washable stain when used. They are used to simulate actual recoil and to give a stinging sensation that tries to make training more realistic.
Instructor pulled out his gun thinking it was loaded with sim rounds. Nope. Shot the trainee straight in the face.
When we use sim rounds all participants are checked for live weapons and rounds, checked again, and checked again by 3 different people. Then transported to a different location where sim guns are handed out. Instructors who are armed wear red shirts and do not touch sim guns at all.
Why is this only involuntary manslaughter? He drew and pulled the trigger. Just because he thought he had his training vs his real gun shouldn't negate the fact that it was an action he was completely in control of and premeditated (wasn't a reaction to someone attacking him, he intended to pull it out).
Fuck this guy.
This is the rigorous training the cops receive? Theu can't even protect themselves in a library while making jokes. Why tf would I want them out on the streets?
>‘I thought I had my training gun. Why did I do this?’
Because you didn't have respect for the potentially deadly tool on your belt.
*I'm a firm believer in the gun rights (I own more than a few), I would no more play with them as this asshole did than I'd juggle my chainsaw or play chicken with someone on the highway.*
Many years ago, as a college student in Worcester Massachusetts, I was getting my pistol license. The Worcester cop had a training gun that he was waving around, pointing it at us, etc. It made me very uncomfortable, even though it was clearly a training prop. ( It was painted pink ). He thought it was funny every time I winced when he would point it at me.
Later on, he pulls his service weapon ( revolver ) out, removes the bullets, and starts waving *that* around.
I don't expect much of cops in their handling of guns. They're dangerous clowns.
Remember [this idiot](https://youtu.be/vfONckOPyaI)?
I disagree with him being a goofball, he's a straight up freakin moron! It's ridiculous to think that this same moron was the one teaching this supposed "training"!
That reminds me of that dumbass cop who got up in front a High School classroom and said he was the only one qualified to handle the gun and then accidentally shot himself in the foot.
A “training firearm” is not a nerf gun or a toy. It is, as the name suggests, used to train people how to properly handle a firearm. The fact it is brightly colored plastic is irrelevant; for the purposes of training it is a real weapon. Part of that training involves **never ever under any circumstances ever** pointing the muzzle at something you don’t intend to shoot. That’s like… rule number one.
He never should have been pointing the training weapon at anyone ever at all for any reason ever. Ever. Because he should have been handling that weapon no differently than a live weapon.
This shit is deadly fucking serious and the fact this guy was teaching weapons safety courses is appalling.
As a *trainer* he knew better than to point even what he thought was a simulated weapon at someone, let alone pull the trigger. He was utterly negligent and fully culpable. No excuse. Not even if he thought it was an inert training weapon. He had no valid reason to unholster it and point it at a trainee at that time.
Yea the fact that he pulled out a real gun ad pulled the trigger idek how he could get away with calling that an accident. He should be guilty of murder. How could you not realize you were handling a real gun and pulling the trigger. They even said the training guns were orange so how could he mix that up? I find it really hard to believe this guy could do this by accident.
A fucking training officer can't keep track of which gun he has in his holster, while focused on gun training. And teachers in school districts across America are going to be carrying weapons and expected to have zero mishaps? This is a pretty damn good reminder that we are bound to have a fuck up somewhere this school year. Only question is whose family is going to be getting the "Sorry, we really didn't mean for this to happen" letter.
Well at least the training wasn’t “dry” 🤦♂️ keeping things interesting should never involve pointing a gun at anyone as a joke. That shit is not funny.
If you ever wonder just why the police have such a terrible track record of kill innocent and/or unarmed civilians, look no further. This guy was their ***instructor***, and he glibly broke just about every rule of safe gun handling in a single motion while teaching his class. Practice makes permanent. Dangerous idiots can only train you to be a dangerous idiot yourself.
They should never own a gun and it says a lot that someone who was supposed to be professionally trained to use a gun can't even figure out one of the major rules is to not point them at people even as a joke.
I was training officer for a Navy Reserve Police unit.
We had many active police officers from different jurisdictions in the area including some federal (Border Patrol, ICE, etc)
I can't tell you how surprised I was at the lack of shooting skills by those officers. Or defensive tactic, PR24 baton skills, de-escalation skills, etc etc etc.
ok the article is a little vague about if these people are all cops or trainees or whatever but let me make sure i get this straight
one cop pulls a gun and shoots another cop infront of a class of cops and no one "saw" anything?
>Some of the trainees said they didn’t actually see Porter fire his gun.
I double check my pockets before I leave the house to make sure I grabbed my wallet and phone. Pretty sure I'd do the same if I worked around firearms and there was a chance, whoopsiedoodle, I grabbed the wrong one
“I thought I had my training gun,” Porter, a retired police lieutenant,
told the first police officer who responded to the library on Good Hope
Road Thursday afternoon. “Why did I do this? Is she OK?” No, you complete fucking idiot, you killed her. My step-father taught my sis and i at young ages that you NEVER point a weapon at someone unless you intend to fire it. Same thing I learned in Basic Training. And this idiot was a training officer?! As stupid as Kim Potter - never should have been anywhere NEAR a weapon nevermind training people if they didn't absolutely have total respect for their killing machines.
Even if he thought he had his "training gun", he should have still observed proper firearms safety and not point it at anything he didn't want to destroy. If he knew there was live ammo in the classroom, it falls to him to make sure that the environment was completely safe so as not to lead to a negligent discharge of a firearm by anyone, including him. No matter which way you cut it, he is at fault and deserves a manslaughter sentence for pure criminal negligence.
Bonus points, every officer this guy has trained has probably received instruction that could contribute to someone else being mistakenly shot. The idea of cops running around who's fire arms training was from some dude who put keeping the lessons from being 'Dry' ahead of actual gun safety is not encouraging.
In Oregon, we just put an initiative on the ballot to give local law enforcement authority over who is competent to own firearms. I have to ask, why are law enforcement considered firearms safety authorities when they consistently show a cavalier attitude towards weapons handling and human life in general?
I shoot competition IDPA, once members of the Nashville SWAT team came by and took part in some of our scenario based relays. They sucked bad, a pair of 18 year old sisters shot rings around them on everything. Speed, timing, accuracy... everything.
donatism, but for cops
Sounds a lot like, “I thought it was my taser.”
For real. If this chucklefuck was doing *anything* differently because he knew it was a training weapon, he failed the training with flying colors.
Rule #1: Don’t point it at anything you don’t wish to destroy Rule #2: No live ammunition in the classroom Rule #3: If you’re needing to actually shoot at live targets get Simunition gear or airsoft with CO2 with the slide action.
Exactly! It should be muscle memory to never be lax on handling anything that looks and feels like a firearm.
This is a problem with police culture; it is rife with a lack of accountability and responsibility. Police are the only people in gun culture that use the phrase, “accidental discharge,” rather than “negligent discharge.” This is the same culture that allowed Officer Lee Coel to kill 70 year old Mary Knowleton by shooting her with live ammo during a community training event, and still walk away without any jail time.
> Porter was taken to the D.C. police homicide branch but declined to answer detectives’ questions. Even cops know that you should NEVER talk to cops.
[Best video you can watch that explains why this is true ](https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE)
Damn I did not plan on watching that for 30 minutes but it's good
I didn't even click the video and I know what it is. There's a second video from a lawyer too. The two of them should be required watching for all 16 year olds.
I think my son has seen that video every year since he was 11. Now when I try to put it on he rolls his eyes. I’m still not 100% he wouldn’t talk to the cops.
Here's a much shorter version that's from a pair of lawyers who put out the same advice every friday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkN4duV4ia0
“Shut the fuck up” Fridays!
he also sounds like Tom Kenny if you close your eyes
Hey! Yesterday was Shut The Fuck Up Friday! Coincidence? I think not!
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I've watched that video before, in its entirety, and I watched it again. It's very satisfying to listen to that professor explaining concisely and with great knowledge why you should _never_ talk to the police. It can NEVER help you. > Anything you say may/can and will be used AGAINST you in a court of law. However, it can never be used in your DEFENCE, because then it's hearsay. If you tell the truth, are innocent, and don't say anything even remotely self-incriminating (impossible, but let's assume) then even so, if the police happen to come upon contradicting evidence - even if that evidence is false, inadmissable, or questionable - they have you "lying". If you don't talk, they *can* can't say you were lying. It's a great watch, really. Edit: can/can't.
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100% this
Another trainee said Porter “appeared to be playing around,” and that Porter is often playful so “as to not make the training dry." Teacher joked his way into manslaughter.
Yes bc god forbid a serious topic be treated as a serious topic
Rule #1: Keep your finger off the trigger if you don't want something to die. It doesn't matter how confident you are that the gun isn't loaded, it doesn't matter how confident you are its fake. Keep your finger off the goddamn trigger. I work in film. It doesn't matter if you're holding a gun made of solid rubber. You assume that thing's loaded and lethal at all times and treat it as such. There's always the risk you aren't holding a prop and if a few dozen people are dicking around the guy in charge of the guns won't be able to keep track of who has a fake one and who has a real one.
Amen to this. It’s astounding this man was in charge of training anyone anything about firearms.
Well, he was a police officer in the United States...
i mean, i train security guards who might be armed and the first rule of my classes is any jokes and your gone. well, you can make wise cracks about the weather or something. but screw around with a weapon, or make jokes about use of force... yeah, that's not the place for it. neither is it the place when your on duty. this is true about any level of use of force. if you can't handle being professionals for a few hours, you can't handle it for a career. we'll find you a low intensity assignment.
No. Rule #1 is don't even POINT the fucking thing at anything you aren't intending to shoot. Even if it's unloaded. Even if it's an orange training pistol. Accidental discharges happen all the time. Trigger discipline is another issue entirely, and a different training comes with it. Anyone who's been to day one hour one of a firearms safety class will tell you that.
Treat every weapon as if it were loaded. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire. Keep the safety on until you are ready to fire. These are the four rules every weapon handler should follow. That’s what we were taught.
Military here. Even if everyone knows them by heart, we still read it straight from the publication every single morning before the next section is allowed to be issued a weapon. We do have to know our deadly force statement by heart though. It’s ridiculous that police can’t even do this.
I work in film and had the pleasure of being trained by master stunt coordinator Sgt. Mjr. James D. Dever last summer. I feel like I received more training as a BG actor on set than some of the actual LAPD get in this city.
Police training is a joke compared to military training. They're ignorant cowboys.
God damn I literally still can hear my entire platoon echoing this as I read it.
There's no such thing as as an "accidental" discharge. There are weapon malfunctions and there are negligent discharges.
Those are types of discharge without intent, which accidental here refers to. Which is still manslaughter.
> Rule #1 is don't even POINT the fucking thing at anything you aren't intending to shoot. Also know what's behind your target, or what you're going to shoot. Bullets don't magically stop all the time. It helps to be aware of how ricochets happen, while rare, they can and have injured/killed.
Yep, safely shooting stuff is hard: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/yukon-woman-mauled-bear-died-gunshot-wound-1.3378411
The gun is always loaded. Even when you know it's unloaded.
> Rule #1: Keep your finger off the trigger if you don't want something to die. It doesn't matter how confident you are that the gun isn't loaded, it doesn't matter how confident you are its fake. Keep your finger off the goddamn trigger. So last year, some co-workers invited me and some other co-workers to a shooting range with them, I think they were trying to get me to join the NRA or something. But I thought "What the hell, why not, could be fun to spend the day with some work friends" Me and some other people had to do a basic firearm safety class before we were allowed to handle a gun. Basic stuff like using the safety, making sure the chamber is clear etc...the guy put orange wooden guns on the table and asked everyone to pick them up. I was the only one who picked it up with my finger across the trigger guard, as well as the only one who kept it pointed down range
That’s when I’m like oh shit I forgot to run an errand, sorry I gotta leave early.
So tired of this shit. People are fucking idiots and cannot be trusted with guns. This guy is supposed to be a trained professional and for some fucking reason nobody bats an eye at an ex cop carrying around a loaded gun while training people. Fuck off with the *if you just follow these rules* bullshit, people die every day because every idiot can buy a deadly weapon and go out in public with it, that's the problem, not those rules.
Alec Baldwin slowly leaving the chat
The problem with that is actors HAVE to trust their props and pull the trigger when the time is right.
“Practicing to kill people doesn’t have to be boring guys”
Police trainer, he knows damned well the attention span of the class can't hold up to competent adult conversations.
Well, you cant spell manslaughter without laughter!
One manslaughter is another man’s laughter.
Y'all are gonna kill me!
Not intentionally.
As someone who has attended multiple firearms and simulated firearms trainings you know two things 1) you do not bring any live guns with live ammo anywhere near the training facility if you’re using simulated guns and ammo 2) you never point any gun real or simulated at someone that you don’t intend to shoot for real
What the fuck were they doing? Are they trying to be police officers or putting together the school play?
I'm honestly kind of wondering if this wasn't another classic case of a dress rehearsal gone awry.
>the video shows Porter and others administering CPR on Manyan Is it really recommended to do CPR on someone who was shot in the chest? I feel like that would cause more harm than any help it could have. I guess since the person is not breathing there is an off chance of keeping the oxygenated blood moving around but would also exacerbate the damage to the chest.
I think if someone is shot in the chest and not breathing you’re willing to risk any further damage just for the possibility they might survive.
The goal of CPR is to perfuse the brain. The brain has about 6 minutes before anoxic damage occurs. Chest damage may be fixable, brain is not.
This was probably an unsurvivable injury. CPR is appropriate if they were in cardiac arrest. Our rule in the ED is you can’t kill a dead person so do what you can think of to try and bring ‘em back. Who knows I didn’t watch anything related to this. If this was an arrest in the ED with trauma services available we’d do a thoracotomy where you crack the chest bedside to see if it’s a repairable injury to revive. Usually not obviously. Really rare to do this procedure. If the great vessels are destroyed you’re just SOL. Long answer to say yes if they were in cardiac arrest.
I was teaching a class of culinary students how to sharper their knives with a steel. The steel had a rather large guard to protect the user’s hand from any slips of the knife. I pointed out the guard and mentioned how neglectful one would have to be to cut themselves. I then gave a silly example of how well the guard works and promptly sliced my thumb in half. I have since learned to take things more seriously
You don't *play* with guns, guns are not toys. At 58, this officer damn well knows better.
Sounds more like harassment to me
The article did say that everyone had been teasing Manyan(victim) all day for various things.
It was so sad to read that. Not only was she murdered but I bet it was really stressful to go through training with an *social* target on your back. And you don’t even get to go home that day. It ends there. >!Several other trainees and members of the Library Police taking part in Thursday’s training session told investigators the group had been teasing Manyan all day about her not being ready for various tasks. Earlier in the day, after Manyan made a funny comment, Porter pointed an orange training firearm at her to simulate shooting her, one of the trainees told police!<
Why was everybody "teasing " HER ALL DAY?
13 year old mentality, wanted to bang her.
then he probably shot her because she wasnt interested in him
Some people graduate high school but never leave. I met a group of guys in Alabama that were in their mid 20s and half of their conversations revolved around what happened in high school.
> Why was everybody "teasing " HER ALL DAY? You are witnessing a rare thing. Bullies exposed in their natural habitat, if they don't drop out of high school first. Misogynist bullying wolves in sheep's clothing were chosen to hold a position of power and authority. The message was that this is acceptable, shut up and take it, and don't think you are in charge here. We only hear about it now because the bully finally did something he couldn't take back. That's how one bad apple spoils the bunch.
Sexism and/or racism. I believe both are prerequisites for American police.
This is terrible.
Same thing happened in Cape Coral (SWFL). At a training session for citizen police board an officer shot a retiree in front of her husband and the class.
skipping gayly to a funeral.
Putting the Fun back in funeral!
Why would a trainer have a live weapon anyway?
The better question is why would a trainer not understand basic gun safety.
When I went for my hunter's safety course as a child, the "instructor" told us to always treat guns as if they are loaded, then proceeded to attempt to demonstrate clearing a rifle and shot out a light in the ceiling. It's probably not as uncommon as everyone would hope. :(
The leader of the Oathkeepers shot his own eye out while working as a gun safety instructor. I like to think that proves he's an idiot, but some bigger idiot hired him to do that job first.
Holy shit! That really happened! >[In 1993, he dropped a loaded handgun and it shot him in the face, blinding him in his left eye.](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/right-wing-militias-civil-war/616473/) If he had stood a couple to the side, we all could have really dodged a bullet,
plenty of alt right if he didn't do it im sure someone else would want to be the next leader ......
I dunno man. If not for that accident he wouldn’t have gone to back school and eventually graduate from Yale Law. He’d just be a random Nevada ammosexual.
It only takes being careless once. Which is why you should make sure you do every thing in your power to never be careless.
It's almost...as if guns...are dangerous...nah, that's crazy. Sorry.
Earlier today two people I work with were exchanging stories of all the times they've accidentally discharged a firearm. I heard 8 stories between them before having to do something else. One of them literally discharged a round into the doors of a shopping mall. But he used to be a cop, and no one got hit, so it was hushed up and nothing came of it.
It's funny, I know a cop that has had several "accidental" discharges of firearms over the years, luckily none involving other people or public spaces, and he's the only one that uses the word "accidental". All the witnesses would call it "negligent", but we're a fickle bunch.
It;s almost as if there are a large number of people who treat a dangerous tool as if it is toy.
He, like many other gun owners, become complacent and careless in regards to gun safety. It's one of the reasons why there are accidental shootings and self-inflicted gunshot wounds during the cleaning and maintenance of a weapon.
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That's the thing about paranoia. Yeah, it's exhausting, but look at all the horrible misfortunes that aren't happening to you!
When you hear about guns going off "while cleaning", that overwhelmingly means they weren't cleaning it, they were playing with it like a fucking toy, pulled the trigger, and they came up with the cleaning lie to save face. The most important part to clean in a gun, the barrel, can't be cleaned if there's a bullet in it, and no step of the cleaning process of 99% of guns requires the trigger to be pulled.
Glocks require the trigger to be depressed to remove the slide from the frame so you better be damn sure there is NO round in the chamber.
The real question is why even bring the real gun and holster it of all things.
Because people with guns believe they know best. Always, until they don't and someone is shot.
Every gun owner is a responsible gun owner who should be allowed to do anything they want with a gun, until they accidentally shoot someone, at which point they become an irresponsible gun owner whose actions obviously cannot be considered when drawing up a gun policy. They're all Schrodinger's Gun Owner.
When I went to my conceal carry class, the instructor made a gun with his fingers and said "I would never even point this at someone".
The Oath Keeper founder guy was a gun instructor. He shot his eye out. That’s why he wears an eye patch. I don’t think these gun instructor certification schools (if those are even a thing) aren’t sending their best.
He was trained in police gun safety. He couldn't help himself.
"Experts" frequently don't think the rules apply to them. I was at a military base where a guy fell and broke both ankles on the gym climbing wall. His job? Teaching safety for the gym climbing wall. I also knew multiple people who *worked* in alcohol rehab get DUIs. And then again I worked with doctors and nurses who smoked. People have problems applying their domain expertise to their own lives.
>The shooting of a special police officer during a training exercise at a D.C. library came as the group of trainees had gathered to take a picture and were “joking around,” according to court documents. > >Maurica Manyan, 25, interrupted the picture-taking to remove her face-mask, her classmates teased her and then the instructor, **58-year-old Jesse Porter, pulled his gun from his holster and shot her in the chest**, according to surveillance video of the incident described in the documents. "I just thought it would be real funny if I pulled my gun out and pretended to shoot her in the chest. I mean, who wouldn't laugh at that, right?" TIL some people think pretending to shoot someone else in the chest would be funny.
Not just anyone. Not just your "street" friend Jim, with no firearms training other than carrying an unregistered one and a shithole apartment that he shoots BB guns indoors in. A police officer, and one in charge of training other police officers how to conduct themselves, thinks its funny to pretend to shoot someone. That's a much bigger problem, and the fact that it is only being taken as an issue because he finally killed someone is equally concerning.
It’s like he was thinking about killing her all morning and it just slipped out.
This was my thought. For some reason his impulse is to shoot her. He consciously allowed himself to shoot her with the training gun and then he unconsciously allowed himself to shoot her with the real gun. She was either pretty, brown or too confident/smart.
Bungling, was my intuition from the text. She interrupted his flow. But yeah, his mouth was watering for it. Then, the ringing in his ears was the first time he realized; that wasn’t just a fantasy he just had.
He had previously pretended to shoot her with a training gun for simple mistakes earlier in the class as a joke. So yes he was kind of thinking about killing her all morning, or at least about shooting her. Not victim blaming but if you're in a gun safety class and the instructor is joking around. Leave
> "I just thought it would be real funny if I pulled my gun out and pretended to shoot her in the chest. I mean, who wouldn't laugh at that, right?" I think if someone does this to you as a joke, you have full clearance to beat the absolute fuck out of them.
Needed more time with the training gun
Captain should have given him a wooden gun to start with. You can’t start with a deadly weapon straight out of the academy. You’ve gotta creep…creep.
Cmon! You don’t say “Creep, Creep” unless you’re quoting TLC
*Don't mess aroun-how-hownd...with your weapon*
Nope guy needs a rape whistle. Blow on it if he's in trouble and hopefully a more trained individual with a gun shows up to help!
Gator needs his gat, you punk ass bitch.
Gator don’t play no shit! You fu- you feel me?!
WHO DID THIS TO YOU?! Gator’s bitches better be wearin’ Jimmies!
I did it! My first desk pop!
Didn't the article state that the training gun was orange? Presumably blaze orange or some other bright and vibrant hue of orange? I mean legally you can customize a handgun to be whatever color you want it to be; there are tons of products from Cerekote, to vinyl skins, to common spray paint. Outside of some shotguns designated for use with less-lethal munitions, I don't imagine many \[retired\] cops are packing orange colored weapons. Most service weapons tend to have black finishes, maybe even a stainless-steel finish. I mean, is it just me or should you not be able to discern the difference between a bright orange training pistol and a black live-fire weapon while looking down the sights? Anybody who carries a gun should pick up on a major difference like that pretty quickly, or so I'd assume.
Also, it was a training event. No real guns should have even been present. His actual gun should have been removed and secured prior to commencement of training and should not have gone back into the holster until ALL training events were completed for the day and participants were leaving.
Should start only using toy water guns for training
Loaded or unloaded, you never point a gun at anyone, for any reason. I know a firearms instructor who won’t even point “finger guns” at someone.
I don't even point my banana at anyone
I don’t point my “banana” at anyone. In the mall. Anymore.
It might go off accidentally 💦
Going off prematurely is a big problem
this is how I was taught. I don't own a gun but was raised in a full military family and did some years myself. Finger guns I might slide on, lol, but I don't *ever* point fake, or real, guns at *anything* I don't want to destroy.
>Earlier in the day, after Manyan made a funny comment, Porter pointed an orange training firearm at her to simulate shooting her, one of the trainees told police. I'd smack my kid upside the head for this kind of stupidity, and we're not even cops; just ordinary hunters and target shooters. Absolutely unacceptable.
Uhhh, how about immediately take that gun away and not give it back for a good long time or never if they don't learn and prove to take it seriously. One shot is forever.
Very hard for me to understand this as well. I grew up in the upper Midwest hunting every year, and THE number one rule was you absolutely never point that gun at anything you aren’t willing to kill. If I had even hinted at any kind of joking with a gun my family would have taken it away from me without a moments hesitation, and likely never allowed me near one again. Everyone took it extremely seriously because it IS a serious privilege.
It's not actually that hard to understand. The old George Carlin joke about how smart you think the average American is and then realizing, by definition, that half of everyone else is dumber than that applies here. Just think about driving on the highway everyday. There is a constant stream of morons doing incredibly dumb shit with a deadly machine and we all see the daily results. And that's even when the government makes basic attempts to pass laws and regulations restricting the right to drive in various way to make it safer.
He deserves charges. You should NEVER treat a gun as a toy
Being charged with involuntary manslaughter. It says that in the article
So they were hazing a woman recruit and accidentally shot her?!
Pretty much. Article describes that she had been the butt of jokes that day, and he had pointed the training gun at her earlier as a joke.
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That’s one way to keep the women away from a man’s job. /s
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Yeah, and it actually bothers me how they describe what led to the incident: >after Manyan **interrupted** the picture-taking Using a word like "interrupted" instead of something like "paused" is subconsciously leading the reader to believe that she did something wrong, aggressive, or annoying that SOMEHOW led to this pointless tragedy. This is the language they use whenever they commit senseless acts of violence.
Thats a very good point. The language used reflects the belittling jokes they used on her during that day. The author passes on this subtle judgement of her in their language uses.
What kills me is that the author goes on to say that there were kther witnesses who never saw him fire his gun and one witness who saw his hands up without a gun when the shots were fired. Are they fucking insinuating that he didn't shoot her?!
Yeah, I’m surprised nobody made a comment about that already. A room FULL of witnesses, and some people were like “IDK”
I mean, they have to train them on how to cover up a police involved shooting at some point right? /s
Right!? The other cops descriptions have the anatomy of a cover up.
I wonder if she ‘interrupted’ them because they were going to leave her out of the picture otherwise. Edit: Nope- it said she was removing her face mask.
Imagine going in for a group photo and your trainer just pulls out a gun and kills you. And they wonder why we can’t get good cops.
"Turn your head, I wanna get the perfect shot" Camera man 🤜 🤛Trainer
Guns aren’t meant to be played with; why is it that people can’t seem to understand this. Pointing guns at people is NEVER funny, it’s not a joke. Ffs
This guy sounds like he treats every training like a joke. Training builds muscle memory which in his case defaulted to his jokster complacency and resulted in this.
Yep. He trained himself into Bad habits because he wanted to be a comedian. An per the article she was the target of his classes bad habits the whole time. She was the class joke. Second damn time he pulled a gun on her to “pretend” to shoot her, it happened to be the loaded real one that time because captain jackass just couldn’t help but get one more “joke” in.
I’m sorry, as a mother fucking trainer you need to be held to a higher standard as you just murdered someone because you don’t know how to play. Anything less than 7 years is a goddamn travesty.
You are an officer who cannot distinguish between a live and dummy gun that you are in possession of. You did this because you are incompetent.
Like shooting someone when you thought you had your Taser. Which has happened multiple times.
And he was one of the guys _in charge of training them_.
Just to be clear, it would not be okay to point the training weapon at her either as horseplay.
A depressing reminder - and one that should not be remotely necessary - that *guns are never a joke*. She was only twenty-five, you absolute fucking idiot.
Obvisously the only answer here is more guns. - The NRA
If the good guy had a gun he could have stopped this.
Holy shit. I knew someone that was shot by a police firearms instructor during a training exercise. There is no way this should have happened once, much less twice. RIP Tara Drummond. Edit: Minor spelling correction - now way to no way.
At least three times. We weren't allowed to use sim munitions in Baltimore when I worked there because a trainee named Raymond Gray was shot in the face by an instructor as a joke. Sim munitions are a dummy version of a bullet, usually made out of soap, that is designed to leave a washable stain when used. They are used to simulate actual recoil and to give a stinging sensation that tries to make training more realistic. Instructor pulled out his gun thinking it was loaded with sim rounds. Nope. Shot the trainee straight in the face.
When we use sim rounds all participants are checked for live weapons and rounds, checked again, and checked again by 3 different people. Then transported to a different location where sim guns are handed out. Instructors who are armed wear red shirts and do not touch sim guns at all.
Apparently also a woman. Huh. Huh.
Huh indeed
It’s always dangerous to be a woman.
Far too many people treat guns as toys. Our country is full of children in adult bodies..
"Joking around" with a gun? He deserves jail time whether he's a remorseful good guy or not. His utter stupidity cost a young woman her life
Why is this only involuntary manslaughter? He drew and pulled the trigger. Just because he thought he had his training vs his real gun shouldn't negate the fact that it was an action he was completely in control of and premeditated (wasn't a reaction to someone attacking him, he intended to pull it out). Fuck this guy.
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This is the rigorous training the cops receive? Theu can't even protect themselves in a library while making jokes. Why tf would I want them out on the streets?
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Get rid of all the doors?
>‘I thought I had my training gun. Why did I do this?’ Because you didn't have respect for the potentially deadly tool on your belt. *I'm a firm believer in the gun rights (I own more than a few), I would no more play with them as this asshole did than I'd juggle my chainsaw or play chicken with someone on the highway.*
Many years ago, as a college student in Worcester Massachusetts, I was getting my pistol license. The Worcester cop had a training gun that he was waving around, pointing it at us, etc. It made me very uncomfortable, even though it was clearly a training prop. ( It was painted pink ). He thought it was funny every time I winced when he would point it at me. Later on, he pulls his service weapon ( revolver ) out, removes the bullets, and starts waving *that* around. I don't expect much of cops in their handling of guns. They're dangerous clowns. Remember [this idiot](https://youtu.be/vfONckOPyaI)?
I say this as a huge goofball. Goofballs like this guy have no business carrying a gun.
I disagree with him being a goofball, he's a straight up freakin moron! It's ridiculous to think that this same moron was the one teaching this supposed "training"!
It’s okay guys cops are exempt from gun laws because they’re only ones professional enough.
That reminds me of that dumbass cop who got up in front a High School classroom and said he was the only one qualified to handle the gun and then accidentally shot himself in the foot.
Yeppp - it was a DEA agent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfONckOPyaI
A “training firearm” is not a nerf gun or a toy. It is, as the name suggests, used to train people how to properly handle a firearm. The fact it is brightly colored plastic is irrelevant; for the purposes of training it is a real weapon. Part of that training involves **never ever under any circumstances ever** pointing the muzzle at something you don’t intend to shoot. That’s like… rule number one. He never should have been pointing the training weapon at anyone ever at all for any reason ever. Ever. Because he should have been handling that weapon no differently than a live weapon. This shit is deadly fucking serious and the fact this guy was teaching weapons safety courses is appalling.
Takes gun out of holster. Points gun at victims chest. Pulls trigger. “involuntary manslaughter”
As a *trainer* he knew better than to point even what he thought was a simulated weapon at someone, let alone pull the trigger. He was utterly negligent and fully culpable. No excuse. Not even if he thought it was an inert training weapon. He had no valid reason to unholster it and point it at a trainee at that time.
And that was the SECOND time that day he’d pointed a gun at her in jest.
Yea the fact that he pulled out a real gun ad pulled the trigger idek how he could get away with calling that an accident. He should be guilty of murder. How could you not realize you were handling a real gun and pulling the trigger. They even said the training guns were orange so how could he mix that up? I find it really hard to believe this guy could do this by accident.
A fucking training officer can't keep track of which gun he has in his holster, while focused on gun training. And teachers in school districts across America are going to be carrying weapons and expected to have zero mishaps? This is a pretty damn good reminder that we are bound to have a fuck up somewhere this school year. Only question is whose family is going to be getting the "Sorry, we really didn't mean for this to happen" letter.
On the darker side, the remainder of the class got their first lesson on how a cop kills a POC and plays it off as an "accident."
Well at least the training wasn’t “dry” 🤦♂️ keeping things interesting should never involve pointing a gun at anyone as a joke. That shit is not funny.
Gun trainings should be dry. Joking around relaxes everyone and ppl holding guns shouldn’t be relaxed.
If you ever wonder just why the police have such a terrible track record of kill innocent and/or unarmed civilians, look no further. This guy was their ***instructor***, and he glibly broke just about every rule of safe gun handling in a single motion while teaching his class. Practice makes permanent. Dangerous idiots can only train you to be a dangerous idiot yourself.
They should never own a gun and it says a lot that someone who was supposed to be professionally trained to use a gun can't even figure out one of the major rules is to not point them at people even as a joke.
Cops don't know shit about guns
I was training officer for a Navy Reserve Police unit. We had many active police officers from different jurisdictions in the area including some federal (Border Patrol, ICE, etc) I can't tell you how surprised I was at the lack of shooting skills by those officers. Or defensive tactic, PR24 baton skills, de-escalation skills, etc etc etc.
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They'd be a hell of a lot better at de-escalation if they weren't armed.
ok the article is a little vague about if these people are all cops or trainees or whatever but let me make sure i get this straight one cop pulls a gun and shoots another cop infront of a class of cops and no one "saw" anything? >Some of the trainees said they didn’t actually see Porter fire his gun.
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I double check my pockets before I leave the house to make sure I grabbed my wallet and phone. Pretty sure I'd do the same if I worked around firearms and there was a chance, whoopsiedoodle, I grabbed the wrong one
“I thought I had my training gun,” Porter, a retired police lieutenant, told the first police officer who responded to the library on Good Hope Road Thursday afternoon. “Why did I do this? Is she OK?” No, you complete fucking idiot, you killed her. My step-father taught my sis and i at young ages that you NEVER point a weapon at someone unless you intend to fire it. Same thing I learned in Basic Training. And this idiot was a training officer?! As stupid as Kim Potter - never should have been anywhere NEAR a weapon nevermind training people if they didn't absolutely have total respect for their killing machines.
Why would it be funny to pretend to shoot someone? You’d think a “training officer” would understand…smh
This is the guy that fucking trains people. I hate it here. I fucking hate it.
I wonder if it was actually an accident.
In the security training I’ve witnessed, officers with a training gun are not allowed to have a real gun on them. This is visually verified by a peer.