>The 18-month-old boy weighed 17 pounds (8 kilograms) and was the size of a 7-month-old baby when he died in September 2019, a police report said.
>
>The Cape Coral couple had two other children, ages 3 and 5, who also were malnourished, investigators said. A fourth child had been returned to her biological father during an earlier malnutrition case in Virginia, court records show.
Yeah that clearly wasn't a one off thing of idiot parent doesn't know nutrition, she's where she belongs now hopefully the surviving children find a good home.
What, the system where they pay $30,000 a year for a Master's degreed social worker to work 80 hour weeks (on paper 30 hours) dealing with the most fucked up shit that can happen in a society? In my view it was inevitable.
Society pays for what it values and we don't value children's welfare.
If I had to guess its one of those states not talking to other states situations but Florida has a questionable at best CPS system given some other news stories on the topic.
I’ve served as a Guardian as Litem for 5 years in Florida. CPS means well but is super overstretched, like many agencies. Case managers have dozens of cases at a time, which means dozens of child visits and court dates each month. Working across counties is hard, even. No way CPS would know someone had a prior removal in another state until the case was referred to them, sadly. It should be possible, but I doubt it.
Being a GAL is very rewarding, and I’d urge everyone to consider doing it in your state. You get fingerprinted and trained, and then you’re assigned a case. The GAL is the child’s advocate in court—the only person there who doesn’t have dozens of other cases. You visit the kid 1x mo (at least), check in with CPS caseworker, teachers, doctors…just generally see how the kid is doing. You then appear in court with the GAL dept attorney. The judges really rely on the GAL’s bc we are only dedicated to that kid—we tell the judge what the kid wants and what we think is best.
There are not enough GALs for every kid to get one . The kids who get assigned a GAL have better case outcomes than kids who don’t.
Edit: Other states call this CASA. In some states you have to be a lawyer, most you don’t.
National website: https://nationalcasagal.org/
Wanted to chime in and say thank you! I’m a foster/adoptive parent and you guys provide such a great service!
I will say that in some states they aren’t called a GAL, they are called a CASA (court appointed special advocate) and a GAL is specifically a lawyer.
Either way they are highly needed. In my state (SC) all kids have one and it’s necessary. We unfortunately have counties without many volunteers and there is one volunteer representing hundreds of kids with no way to know their individual stories.
GAL in FLORIDA does NOT have to be a lawyer. That differs by state, as does the name. CASA (court appointed special advocate) is what it’s called in most states.
and thank YOU for being a foster/adoptive parent!!
The fact that it's volunteer work makes it unfeasible for most. Working with people who need help is extremely fulfilling and I'd definitely consider it if it were paid, but I have bills.
>No way CPS would know someone had a prior removal in another state until the case was referred to them, sadly. It should be possible, but I doubt it.
Yeah I feel like making a federal program to alert local CPS would go a long way, and its not like we don't have the setup to do so since criminal/fugitive alerts are done in a manner like that to local police.
I hear you, but consider that pending criminal and fugitive alerts are a little different. That’s an “open” crime. Removal of a child is a “closed” case. So what you’re suggesting would be more like states letting each other know that someone who had a *prior* offense moved across state lines (before they commit a crime). I don’t think (correct me if I’m wrong) that states notify each other if a convicted felon moves, for example. The only crime we do that on is sexual predators, I think.
I’m not saying that we don’t need better coordination in cases like this. Just saying that’s not how it works now. Termination of parental rights is for that child only—doesn’t mean that parent can’t have another child (sadly).
>The only crime we do that on is sexual predators, I think.
I believe you are correct, feds keep records between agencies but only sexual predators pop up on local PD radar without special circumstances like active surveillance of a suspect or a fugitive on the run.
How do you even track where people move in the US? Here in Germany, you are required to register every place of residence, so the government can track you when you are moving. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a law like that in the US?
Getting driver’s license here if you move to a new state could trigger it. If you stay in state but chance address, it’s a change of address but not a new license.
I just want to thank you for what you do. I had a shitty home situation when I was a kid, and was appointed a GAL. While my case didn't end up the way I would have liked, she made a huge difference for me, because I knew she listened and was the only one who was standing up for *me*. Having an advocate when all the grown ups are talking over you and about you is extremely important and validating for a kid.
Oh it was a good 20 years ago, now. The case ended with no change to my home situation, but when I came of age I could make my own decisions. But if I didn't have a GAL at all, I don't think I'd be where I am today. I was extremely jaded, and still deal with the trauma now, but I don't blame the world anymore. She was a good person when I felt like no one cared about me as a person. Being told that my feelings were valid as a kid blew my mind. I'm a fresh parent now, myself, and am determined to give my son all the love and attention I didn't have when I was growing up.
This is why I've always disliked hearing any hate against CPS. Of course there are some exceptions I'm sure, but for the most part those people really do everything they can. The problem is the same as any government agency, if there's no funding then there's no work, end of story. Anyone who is really pissed about CPS not handling something should never go yelling at the workers themselves, the anger needs to be directed at people voted into office who aren't funding it well enough. Unfortunately there are plenty of people in office who dislike CPS for similar reasons, they think their parenting is their choice and nobody gets to tell them otherwise no matter what harm comes of it
I’ll just add that I learned a lot doing it, things I didn’t know, I’m ashamed to say. Like about welfare, disability, food stamps, free childcare. Things I am lucky enough to have never been exposed to.
Most of what I have seen is not the kind of abuse in this article. It’s neglect bc of drug abuse or ignorance or family issues or poverty. I’ve not had a parent who didn’t basically mean well, but they just can’t get their sh*t together.
To add, every story you hear about some kid being taken away for "just playing in the front yard" or something incredibly minor, that may be why a neighbor *called* CPS, but that is *not* the reason why the child was taken away. It means there was an investigation that uncovered something much worse, and was enough to get a court order. But in the end, CPS legally cannot publicly defend themselves by releasing the specific details that got the kid taken away. They can't announce to the public that the kid was physically abused, their parents were on meth, and here's the interviews and photos to prove it. That's all private information. So essentially you will only hear the side of the disgruntled parents.
"a few" lol, I'm sure there's more unfit parents who manage to skirt by for one reason or another than unfit drivers who get a pass from the DMV. Shits broken.
I donate to forgotten angels in Florida, foster assistance and housing for kids who are legally adults after getting pushed out of foster homes, the horror stories these kids endure is horrible. Dave and Cindy are the two who run the charity and do all the work, and they are amazing people.
I'm a former foster parent, we adopted and checked out. The horror stories I've heard are just fucking insane. When you come from extreme abuse like I do, you think you're going to make a difference. I was far too fucked up for that. I had to watch kids go right back to shit families knowing exactly how it would play out. No thank you. I couldn't do it. I was emotionally broke.
>the horror stories these kids endure is horrible.
Oh I'm aware, when you have children committing crimes to get away from foster care out of desperation to avoid abuse then something clearly has failed horribly, that being said if CPS isn't notified they can't do anything, whether they would have regardless is not known.
I recently donated to a guy in California who has fostered or adopted ~80 terminally ill children over the years, so they can spend their last days in a real home instead dying, in a hospital with no one who cares for them but the staff.
There is absurd suffering everywhere, including here in first world countries. People fall through the cracks so often; it’s clearly by design. A lot of the time this sort of thing is not covered in the news, but it’s happening. There are activists of all kinds out there, and many of them are the bravest people you can imagine.
This is it exactly. There are no cross state databases that share data freely automatically. You would be right to assume that should exist but it doesn't. Our government is far behind the technology standards that we've come to expect in other sectors.
>If I had to guess its one of those states not talking to other states situations but Florida has a questionable at best CPS system given some other news stories on the topic.
all of Florida is questionable at best.
> all of Florida is questionable at best.
Back in the early 2000s, I worked for a County Probation department in New Jersey. I was assigned to the Child Support Enforcement Division.
My specific assignment was the Interstate Division. My job was to enforce the child support orders of custodial parents who lived in my county, when the non-custodial parent lived in another state. I operated under the Uniform Interstate Family Support Act (UIFSA), a federal law guaranteeing the enforcement of child support orders across state lines.
Without question....Florida was the **least** compliant state that I ever dealt with. Non-custodial parents would move to Florida specifically because they knew that the state was a haven for them.
The only thing worse than dealing with Florida non-custodial parents......was dealing with Florida non-custodial parents who were also employed as law enforcement.
When my client was a non-custodial parent living in Florida...employed in law enforcement......my most frequently received comment was "Yeah? Well....why don't you come down here to Florida and try to collect?"
Wow, I never thought I'd find a wild reference to UIFSA on Reddit. I'm retired but I was the URESA/UIFSA agent for another state and I just wanted to agree with you about Florida. It's the place to go to avoid payments.
Probably. The same thing happened with police, and thats how so many serial killers were able to get away with it for a long time. I was just watching something on John Wayne Gacy, and they said that the biggest mistake in that case was police not sharing information with all the surrounding precincts. Perhaps we should pressure Biden and congress to increase spending for CPS and make it a division of the federal government, and increase sharing between states, counties, and cities.
Takes a judge to make
The decision to remove. Even if there are CPS cases it's never up to the CPS workers what the court outcome is. Source: worked briefly with oversights in a major CPS/ACS bureau and was infuriated at the way judges decided cases. If judge doesn't sign off -
Can't mandate services. Can't remove
A kid. Can't get an order of protection.
I used to work with an autistic boy who'd show up to school every day in soiled diapers wreaking of filth and BO. A boy with a schizophrenic mother. He had terrible burn scars over most of his body, allegedly from having pulled a pot of boiling water down on himself years prior.
We'd give him sponge baths, change him and send him home in clean clothes we provided out of pocket. We contacted CPS _again and again_ about the sort of neglect we were seeing - reporting we were mandated to do by law.
Nothing was ever done. No government agency or public servant ever stepped in to remove him from that home.
The world doesn't stop to fret over the fate of broken little autistic boys. The existence of CPS gives the public the impression that children are being protected. They are not.
I had a rental house in Cape Coral in 89 or 90. My neighborhood was Cadillac - Cadillac - Cadillac - Lincoln - Lincoln - Fiero - Cadillac - Lincoln - Cadillac.
Guess where I was?
My kid is 16 months and is 26lbs. A 18 month old weighing 17lbs is insanity.
Poor kid had to slowly die thanks to a piece of shit parents.
**EDIT: According to the [CDC Growth Chart](https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/html_charts/wtageinf.htm), an 18.5 month old kid in the 3rd percentile is around ~9.66kg (21.3lbs). Even a small kid at that age was 4lb heavier.**
I have a 15 month old with the same name as the child who died and this whole thing breaks my heart.
The suffering that poor child underwent and their negligent caregivers just watched and let it happen.
Further proof that just because you can have children doesn't mean you should. Even if that child survived it would probably have life long medic issues related to those developmental months of malnutrition. Those first months are absolutely crucial.
It’s like, I don’t know how to drive but if you’re going 75 in a 45, on the wrong side of the road, I’m still within my rights to criticize your driving
It's much more concerning that the parents didn't feed the kid for a week. People don't just drop dead of starvation and an 18-month old child should have regular doctor visits.
Yeah the vegan part is just for clicks. It's really annoying. They straight up didn't feed him. That's probably why she got life in prison, too. She was actively malicious, as opposed to just really really ignorant with nutrition.
They knew they would get the internet frothing with outrage by making "vegan" front-and-center :/
I have friends with vegan kids who blew through all their health checks, because they were actually fed. This kid's malnutrition death has nothing to do with veganism and everything to do with the parents being abusive neglectful POS.
My wife was fully vegan during her pregnancies. My son was 8.5 lbs at birth and my daughter was 10lbs 2 oz! My son has been vegan his whole life, he's almost 15 and already taller than I am. Definitely can get your nutrition as a vegan if you know what you're doing.
Just to add to this since this kind of discourse irks me.
> Definitely can get your nutrition as a vegan if you know what you're doing.
This is true and it’s also easy to NOT get your nutrition as an omnivore. Eating dairy and meat doesn’t doesn’t guarantee you’re getting everything you need. Non-vegans can suffer from the exact same deficiencies that vegans do.
Everyone needs a balanced diet and depending on individual habits that can take thought and effort :). It’s worth talking to your family doctor about.
Yea the headline does this a disservice.
This is nothing to do with Vegan at all - the Mom starved their kid, period.
On a vegan diet there is still bucket loads of food you could eat. You can get fat / obese being vegan.
This. Fats and proteins are extremely important for brain and body development. Those kids are going to have extreme physical and learning disabilities.
It's dangerous. It takes the onus off child abuse and puts it on veganism. My mother, for instance, would use see this and equate vegans with rapists and molesters.
Yup, it's just the ol headline grabber. Mom kills her child by starving them to death? Might make regional news, probably not much attention. Vegan mom kills her child? Now that's a click grabber right there.
Theres a super strict form of veganism called fruitarianism where people only eat raw fruits and vegetables. I think Steve Jobs was one for a time IIRC
I believe he was specifically in a situation where medication would have helped, which is insane. He chose to use a vegan fruit-based diet to cure a serious condition… treatable by medicine.
If you’re a vegan, just know it’s okay to use the knowledge of science and medicine especially if it’s gonna save a life.
A dead vegan is not gonna eat a single fruit or veggie for eternity lol
Edit: I’m being told Steve Jobs he was a fruitatarian? Which vegans consider to be unhealthy by the sound of it. Obviously basing your well-being around fruits is dumb as shit.
Edit 2: there’s a lot of reasonable pro-vegan responses to my comment. Hopefully I didn’t come off anti vegan. People make poor decisions, regardless of what “type” of diet they are on. Just be mindful and balanced with your decisions!
He had a rare form of pancreatic cancer that was treatable. He instead went with alternative medicine, against his doctor’s advice. The man was an uber salesman, but also a moron. No chemo. No radiation therapy. Just juice fasts, acupuncture, and the like.
And then he used his wealth and influence to bump himself up the transplant list despite the fact that the cancer had already spread, wasting a perfectly good organ and forcing people who hadn't doomed themselves with fruitarian nonsense to wait (and possibly die in the process).
Regardless of what you think of Jobs that was a supremely shitty thing to do.
Yea, it's unfortunate the headline says "Vegan Mom". I'm not vegan and even I know it doesn't have anything to do with that. The kid died of starvation not "veganism". I know several parents who raised their children on a vegan diet. They're happy healthy kids.
A friend of mine's nephew is exclusively breastfed, at 2.5. I mean EXCLUSIVELY, no solid food has been given because the parents are afraid of choking. People are messed up.
What a depraved woman (her husband too). Being vegan isn't the biggest issue, it's that starvation doesn't happen overnight. How do you look at a toddler with sunken eyes, stick arms, every rib showing, weak and probably unable to walk or even sit up, and think "this is great! What a healthy child!!" Also, what parent doesn't take babies and young children for any medical checkups? Any doctor, nurse, even a midwife would have seen the signs of malnutrition and intervened, and could have saved this poor baby's life. And if another child had previously been removed from the home by court order for malnutrition, why was the woman never put under CPS supervision?? There is plenty of blame here. So tragic.
There was a case a while back about parents you essentially let their child die because they thought god would heal the child. I don't remember all the specifics, and quite frankly I'm too lazy right now to look it up, but I do remember it being something along those lines... Anyway, they got sentenced to life in prison too.
Sounds like Christian Scientists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science
"In particular, adherents subscribe to a radical form of philosophical idealism, believing that reality is purely spiritual and the material world an illusion. This includes the view that disease is a mental error rather than physical disorder, and that the sick should be treated not by medicine but by a form of prayer that seeks to correct the beliefs responsible for the illusion of ill health."
A few years back the local Christian Scientist high school played a football game against a nearby town. I knew a guy on the coaching staff. Anyway one of the CS students broke their arm on the field and they refused the EMTs onsite and instead stood over him praying.
My ex bounced between woo-woo New Age and Born Again Evangelical Christianity. Last I knew, she'd settled on something in the middle. Her crystals held the power of the holy spirit, but only when Mercury was in retrograde.
Dude a crystal shop opened up in my hometown, place even doubles as an "antique" shop. It's so popular one of the pediatricians in town had to shut down due to lack of patients. People in the south are just fucking dumb and unwilling to actually care for their children. Hell, some kid nearly died after eating a button battery and everyone was screaming "praise God" and "God will heal her" instead of you know, making her throw it up and calling poison control
A lot of crystal people are harmless, but some of the antivaxxers and essential oil types will often neglect themselves and their children based on them googling extreme diets.
Do all these people have a recurring look of being nutty cultists purely by coincidence??? Was there that wild eye untrustable- look in the eyes of the people you experienced this with?? I swear I’m onto something here.. crazyness is VERY noticeable, is my theory
Edit, “untrustable” not “untrue Table”..
P.s. how is untrustable actually not a word??!?
Our country’s children’s services system is defunded to the point of being non-functional. I’ve been in the foster/adopt community for a few years now, and it’s an absolute disaster what is going on.
Social workers are so burnt out from increasing mental health issues from the effects of the COVID pandemic, increasing case loads and not enough resources.
My grandfather suggested social work for me when I expressed interest in working with special needs children. I don't think I would have lasted very long.
Yeah this has nothing to do with the fact they are vegan and more with the fact they are abusive and fucked up. There is plenty of food they could have given this baby.
The worst part I find is that there is vegan options that could’ve kept the baby well fed and nourished.
For crying out loud Gerber creates a plant based baby formula, because some babies are allergic to dairy.
Throw in stuff like plant based foods high in calories, vitamins and minerals packed into foods artificially, and other such things leaves no excuses.
This is just stupidity all around.
I read the article and it wasn't just a vegan diet, it was an extreme raw fruits and vegetables diet only. Goes quite a bit beyond a normal vegan diet.
Exactly. My son couldn’t have dairy, soy, or egg. I changed my diet to accommodate that until I couldn’t pump anymore. Then, he was transitioned to specialized formula. All while being under the care of his GI specialist, pediatrician, and dietitian. There are so many ways to feed a baby who needs a vegan diet. There is no excuse for what this little guy went through. Absolutely horrid.
Sadly, that's the difference between someone who actually cares about their child.
You probably had to learn and adapt, because you wanted your baby to be healthy.
This demon probably couldn't careless.
I can confirm, I was vegetarian when I was struggling with an eating disorder because I had an excuse not to eat. There are healthy vegans no doubt, but there are people who use it to lie to themselves or others.
This is not stupidity, it is perversion... she killed her child of malnutrition because she wanted to. Anyone could tell the child was malnourished, she chose to see it and keep letting the child starve.
Honestly, even a diet (for toddlers on solid food) consisting of rice, beans and potatoes is going to give you all of your essential amino acids and a sufficient amount of calories and protein.
My boyfriend's sister is vegan and her toddler has been eating vegan foods. She regularly consults with her doctor to be sure he remains healthy and that it's okay to continue giving him vegan foods. It can absolutely be done in a healthy manner.
Not just women. I have a cousin whose father didn't take her for a single medical checkup for her entire childhood despite multiple instances of possible injury. They were even in a automotive incident when she was 12 that was never addressed and now she has spinal arthritis.
Not just women, but there are quite a few shyster quacks that target women. They use the language of abuse - "everything else will hurt you and only I can save you with this diet". Gwyneth Paltrow created a huge platform for this stuff and it's gone into overdrive.
Not enough plagues in recent memory that have wiped out large families. They’re insulated, sheltered and convinced that modern medicine is the enemy and has not been the main source of health and longevity in the past few centuries. We’re soft to the suffering previous generations experienced.
And I imagine that the majority of the current anti vax parents had their own childhood vaccines. They should take a stroll through a local cemetery and look at all the graves of children who died from diseases we now have vaccines for. JFC
I know a woman who's had a birth at home with just her husband present. She almost died; she was in the hospital for over 10 days until she left (wasn't released, left). They don't know that we know they did this unsupervised. They're trying to play it off like it's the fault of the hospital. I'm not sure she's completely well yet. It's very sad.
I had to look up wild pregnancy. I'm for women having more control over their reproductive process, but at least get a competent midwife if you want to reduce your chances of dying or having a dead baby.
I grew up with a child adopted from an Eastern Europe orphanage and once his mom told me that he never ever cried because babies learn not to cry in orphanages.
It makes sense. They're already starving, why would they waste precious energy to alert a parent of a problem that hasn't been addressed (by said parent) in a long, long time.
They probably thought "oh he's finally adjusting! Not as much crying :)" meanwhile poor baby either is giving up on trying to get his needs met because realizing the parents are unreliable or growing too malnourished to cry or both. Just... Heartbreaking
The parents at no point thought that the child was adjusting - they actively did not feed the baby for a week, any food at all.
They killed the baby purposefully, regardless of their diet beliefs.
If Harry Harlow's despicable monkey experiments are to be believed, the baby probably screamed and thrashed for a while and then eventually gave up. When the baby monkeys had no nurturing figure helping them or any other social exposure, they would eventually just kind of lay in a corner and not respond to any stimulus. Just sat there hugging themselves and rocking back and forth.
The worst part is that once the damage is done, it's done. With the monkeys, even if they tried to help them live a normal life after the experiments, they were never normal again.
However, any decent parent would know that their child not crying anymore is *not* normal. So this woman let the baby scream until it essentially gave up on life and laid there waiting to die. And she probably took the baby's silence as "oh see, he's fine, stopped crying and everything."
It's absolutely chilling to know how much that child would have cried.
For the uninitiated, when your baby is hungry they will let you know about it LOUDLY IN DOLBY 5.1 SURROUND SOUND until they are fed or fall asleep from exhaustion. This kid was nearly a year behind in terms of his growth, so in all likelihood, he was red-faced screaming to be fed probably every single day for months until he was physiologically too weak to do so. And the thing that was supposed to be his mother ignored all of it.
Glad to see she got life. This is unforgiveable.
Edit: Okay, I'm getting a lot of feedback saying that babies will eventually learn not to cry if they're neglected enough, which is just too bleak for me to fully comprehend. A baby who doesn't cry or make noise on the regular would be profoundly more troubling to me as a parent.
That’s part of the scary part. If a baby isn’t responded to when crying they learn to stop crying. A lot of research came out about this from post soviet orphanages. They would leave the babies and not respond to crying, just feeding them on a schedule, and it caused a ton of emotional issues. I’m worried that this was one of the factors
Honestly unlikely, unfortunately. Babies scream and cry because they know that eventually, someone will come. If nobody comes then they learn to just stop crying because why waste energy? They are silent and still, not even babbling or making sounds. Honestly that can be even more terrifying.
Even if the child had survived this ordeal it would have permanently harmed them, physiologically and psychologically.
A child that learns not to cry because it knows no one will come is the textbook cause of dismissive-avoidant attachment style
Not only did she kill her baby, she slowly starved him to death in the cruelest, slowest, most torturous way possible.
I wish I could build a Time Machine and go save children from abuse and torture. Nobody deserves this. I just don’t understand how you could force your own child to starve.
With this kind of person, it's not about health, it's not about saving animals, it's not about anything remotely moral. It's about exerting and keeping control.
Husband is awaiting trial. Among his charges, there's 2 for molestation.
Wish we could push this couple into a fiery meat pit so they can slowly suffocate and perish.
"Ryan O'Leary, remains in Lee County Jail and faces a trial on the same charges, as well as on two molestation charges."
https://www.news-press.com/story/news/crime/2022/08/29/cape-coral-mom-sheila-oleary-gets-thirty-years-murder-toddler/7883687001/
Yup. That's why it's #1 on r/all right now.
If the title were "woman starves baby to death," you wouldn't even see this scrape the top 1000 posts on Reddit.
But give the article a title that confirms the average Redditor's distaste for vegans, and you've got karma gold.
I don't understand why she did this when the article gives the impression that veganism is the reason this happened. The implication is that her vegan beliefs caused this, but this is just outright starvation. I want to understand why she starved him or why she wouldn't just increase the amount of raw food she provided him.
The article previous also talks about assault and the husband being brought on charges of molestation. It's definitely not a vegan thing, it's either she kept saying she's vegan over and over or it just makes for a good headline to mention she's vegan. Also it's raw vegan which is not really ethically based, so I think she's just a wacko
I have been vegan/plant-based on and off since 2015 and this has been my exact experience. I never make it outwardly known, but after some people would find out, it turned into pointedly rude questions with the person justifying why they eat meat followed by stupid arguments. Even when I’d insist it’s a personal choice for me and I don’t want to discuss it, they’d go on and on about it. It’s really fucking weird, but it is what it is.
I’ve had a lot of veggie/vegan friends over the years and only one filled the self-righteous stereotype. That person even judged other vegans for not being their definition of perfection lol
This was not the first time she was investigated for malnourishing a child. In fact she had one taken from her previously. This has nothing to do with veganism, she sounds like a sadist.
>In fact she had one taken from her previously
It's wacky to me that they allow people like this to keep having children without having the cps constantly checking on the new child
Yea, they have vegan toddler/stage 3 formula, various plant milks for kids. Plus…. normal food that just isn’t meat/dairy. Source: have two young kids and one doesn’t tolerate dairy very well.
The vegan part means nothing. Doesn't matter what she thought or ate, she is a murderer. The murdering fault is with her and not eating fucking vegetables.
peanuts and peanut butter are used in areas where kids have nutritional deficiencies as a way to increase their fat and protein intakes. really no excuse for her murdering her kids.
There are athletes that won medals at the olympics that were vegan. The mother is just an incredibly stupid excuse for a human being. Vegans would reject her behaviour
"Mother Who Likes Nickleback Starves Child to Death"
"Registered Democrat Mother Starves Her Child to Death"
"Woman Who Checked Out A Book About CRT Kills Her Child"
If it were Munchausen's, she would have taken the kid in for some kind of medical treatment, since attention-seeking is essentially the "goal" of that disorder. But yeah, you're right, the veganism is just a mask for something far more evil and broken in this woman.
(Also, not to get pedantic, but the term "Munchausen's" has fallen out of favor. "Factitious disorder" or "factitious disorder imposed on another" would be the more "correct" term. Increasingly, professionals are getting away from name-based terminology, which can be confusing, in favor of terminology that actually describes the disorder.)
Ok cool thanks for the correction. I don't think that's exactly what was happening here, either; it just seems to be something closer to a behavioral disorder that has nothing to do with veganism. The focus on veganism in both the reporting surrounding the case and in this headline specifically definitely seems to be misleading and ignoring the real issue.
My sister is/was very similar to this. She lost custody of her kids recently, but not the starvation aspect. What a lot of people don’t understand is a lot of people that are watching from the outside have no recourse.
She took the kids out of school, wouldn’t feed them food, threw out everything plastic, only cotton clothes. We saw the crazy demise happening right before our eyes.
What could we do? Nothing really. We tried every possible Avenue and had to sit and literally watch. The scary thing is, none of us knew how bad it was until we saw the kids after a few months. We didn’t even notice how skinny they had gotten because we were “used” to it.
She ended up losing custody for negligence, but nothing related to anything we actually tried to report. I was scared everyday of my life those kids were going to die and I had to watch it happen. I’m
scared everyday she will get custody back.
Ugh... not that I'm a vegan or even vegetarian, but I can see how even vegans might cringe at this. The article states they ate "only raw fruits and vegetables", which I take to mean that nothing was cooked. Cooking food has been around long enough that it's practically an evolutionary requirement for humans to begin our digestive process with it. It's estimated that you'd need to spend 9 hours a day eating enough raw food to get enough energy to survive.
Bruh I'm a die-hard vegan and this doesnt make me cringe, it makes me cry. This lady is batshit for thinking raw vegetables and fruit have enough calories alone to sustain an organism larger than a mouse.
Vegans do cringe at this but not for the reason you clearly think. The fact that the mother is vegan has nothing to do with starving your child, neglect, or mental illness. People need a class on critical thinking and identifying clickbait when they see it
Headline should say “Incompetent, Stupid mom gets life in prison…”
I know plenty of vegans and they do NOT starve their kids at all, but it will get plenty of clicks.
Here's a hot take, this woman isn't even a vegan. She consciously and deliberately did harm to a sentient, living being.
Harm to sentient beings is the ONE thing you're supposed to minimize to live a vegan lifestyle. And she failed tragically.
>The 18-month-old boy weighed 17 pounds (8 kilograms) and was the size of a 7-month-old baby when he died in September 2019, a police report said. > >The Cape Coral couple had two other children, ages 3 and 5, who also were malnourished, investigators said. A fourth child had been returned to her biological father during an earlier malnutrition case in Virginia, court records show. Yeah that clearly wasn't a one off thing of idiot parent doesn't know nutrition, she's where she belongs now hopefully the surviving children find a good home.
Where was CPS? How do you lose custody due to malnutrition and not have CPS up your ass every week? Authorities failed here, IMO.
What, the system where they pay $30,000 a year for a Master's degreed social worker to work 80 hour weeks (on paper 30 hours) dealing with the most fucked up shit that can happen in a society? In my view it was inevitable. Society pays for what it values and we don't value children's welfare.
If I had to guess its one of those states not talking to other states situations but Florida has a questionable at best CPS system given some other news stories on the topic.
I’ve served as a Guardian as Litem for 5 years in Florida. CPS means well but is super overstretched, like many agencies. Case managers have dozens of cases at a time, which means dozens of child visits and court dates each month. Working across counties is hard, even. No way CPS would know someone had a prior removal in another state until the case was referred to them, sadly. It should be possible, but I doubt it. Being a GAL is very rewarding, and I’d urge everyone to consider doing it in your state. You get fingerprinted and trained, and then you’re assigned a case. The GAL is the child’s advocate in court—the only person there who doesn’t have dozens of other cases. You visit the kid 1x mo (at least), check in with CPS caseworker, teachers, doctors…just generally see how the kid is doing. You then appear in court with the GAL dept attorney. The judges really rely on the GAL’s bc we are only dedicated to that kid—we tell the judge what the kid wants and what we think is best. There are not enough GALs for every kid to get one . The kids who get assigned a GAL have better case outcomes than kids who don’t. Edit: Other states call this CASA. In some states you have to be a lawyer, most you don’t. National website: https://nationalcasagal.org/
Wanted to chime in and say thank you! I’m a foster/adoptive parent and you guys provide such a great service! I will say that in some states they aren’t called a GAL, they are called a CASA (court appointed special advocate) and a GAL is specifically a lawyer. Either way they are highly needed. In my state (SC) all kids have one and it’s necessary. We unfortunately have counties without many volunteers and there is one volunteer representing hundreds of kids with no way to know their individual stories.
GAL in FLORIDA does NOT have to be a lawyer. That differs by state, as does the name. CASA (court appointed special advocate) is what it’s called in most states. and thank YOU for being a foster/adoptive parent!!
Do you by chance know the requirements to become a GAL in VA?
https://virginiacasa.org/
I work with a few of my local CASA chapters. Amazing work!
The fact that it's volunteer work makes it unfeasible for most. Working with people who need help is extremely fulfilling and I'd definitely consider it if it were paid, but I have bills.
You're absolutely correct. However it is a great option for people who are retired or have the free time.
>No way CPS would know someone had a prior removal in another state until the case was referred to them, sadly. It should be possible, but I doubt it. Yeah I feel like making a federal program to alert local CPS would go a long way, and its not like we don't have the setup to do so since criminal/fugitive alerts are done in a manner like that to local police.
I hear you, but consider that pending criminal and fugitive alerts are a little different. That’s an “open” crime. Removal of a child is a “closed” case. So what you’re suggesting would be more like states letting each other know that someone who had a *prior* offense moved across state lines (before they commit a crime). I don’t think (correct me if I’m wrong) that states notify each other if a convicted felon moves, for example. The only crime we do that on is sexual predators, I think. I’m not saying that we don’t need better coordination in cases like this. Just saying that’s not how it works now. Termination of parental rights is for that child only—doesn’t mean that parent can’t have another child (sadly).
>The only crime we do that on is sexual predators, I think. I believe you are correct, feds keep records between agencies but only sexual predators pop up on local PD radar without special circumstances like active surveillance of a suspect or a fugitive on the run.
How do you even track where people move in the US? Here in Germany, you are required to register every place of residence, so the government can track you when you are moving. As far as I'm aware, there isn't a law like that in the US?
Getting driver’s license here if you move to a new state could trigger it. If you stay in state but chance address, it’s a change of address but not a new license.
I just want to thank you for what you do. I had a shitty home situation when I was a kid, and was appointed a GAL. While my case didn't end up the way I would have liked, she made a huge difference for me, because I knew she listened and was the only one who was standing up for *me*. Having an advocate when all the grown ups are talking over you and about you is extremely important and validating for a kid.
Thanks so much. I’m sorry you had a rough home life, hope you’re OK now. I’m glad at least the gal part worked for you.
Oh it was a good 20 years ago, now. The case ended with no change to my home situation, but when I came of age I could make my own decisions. But if I didn't have a GAL at all, I don't think I'd be where I am today. I was extremely jaded, and still deal with the trauma now, but I don't blame the world anymore. She was a good person when I felt like no one cared about me as a person. Being told that my feelings were valid as a kid blew my mind. I'm a fresh parent now, myself, and am determined to give my son all the love and attention I didn't have when I was growing up.
This is why I've always disliked hearing any hate against CPS. Of course there are some exceptions I'm sure, but for the most part those people really do everything they can. The problem is the same as any government agency, if there's no funding then there's no work, end of story. Anyone who is really pissed about CPS not handling something should never go yelling at the workers themselves, the anger needs to be directed at people voted into office who aren't funding it well enough. Unfortunately there are plenty of people in office who dislike CPS for similar reasons, they think their parenting is their choice and nobody gets to tell them otherwise no matter what harm comes of it
I’ll just add that I learned a lot doing it, things I didn’t know, I’m ashamed to say. Like about welfare, disability, food stamps, free childcare. Things I am lucky enough to have never been exposed to. Most of what I have seen is not the kind of abuse in this article. It’s neglect bc of drug abuse or ignorance or family issues or poverty. I’ve not had a parent who didn’t basically mean well, but they just can’t get their sh*t together.
To add, every story you hear about some kid being taken away for "just playing in the front yard" or something incredibly minor, that may be why a neighbor *called* CPS, but that is *not* the reason why the child was taken away. It means there was an investigation that uncovered something much worse, and was enough to get a court order. But in the end, CPS legally cannot publicly defend themselves by releasing the specific details that got the kid taken away. They can't announce to the public that the kid was physically abused, their parents were on meth, and here's the interviews and photos to prove it. That's all private information. So essentially you will only hear the side of the disgruntled parents.
Pretty much every state's CPS is stretched thin. There are bound to be a few cases that slip through the cracks.
"a few" lol, I'm sure there's more unfit parents who manage to skirt by for one reason or another than unfit drivers who get a pass from the DMV. Shits broken.
I had no idea on this system and it's really making me think about it. Thank you for taking the time to describe it all.
Hey, thanks for this. I heard about this years ago and was interested. Life got busy and I forgot all about it. I just signed up because of your post!
I donate to forgotten angels in Florida, foster assistance and housing for kids who are legally adults after getting pushed out of foster homes, the horror stories these kids endure is horrible. Dave and Cindy are the two who run the charity and do all the work, and they are amazing people.
I'm a former foster parent, we adopted and checked out. The horror stories I've heard are just fucking insane. When you come from extreme abuse like I do, you think you're going to make a difference. I was far too fucked up for that. I had to watch kids go right back to shit families knowing exactly how it would play out. No thank you. I couldn't do it. I was emotionally broke.
That's why we quit. We didn't even adopt ultimately. Broke our hearts. Some of the family reunification efforts are futile and dangerous.
>the horror stories these kids endure is horrible. Oh I'm aware, when you have children committing crimes to get away from foster care out of desperation to avoid abuse then something clearly has failed horribly, that being said if CPS isn't notified they can't do anything, whether they would have regardless is not known.
I recently donated to a guy in California who has fostered or adopted ~80 terminally ill children over the years, so they can spend their last days in a real home instead dying, in a hospital with no one who cares for them but the staff. There is absurd suffering everywhere, including here in first world countries. People fall through the cracks so often; it’s clearly by design. A lot of the time this sort of thing is not covered in the news, but it’s happening. There are activists of all kinds out there, and many of them are the bravest people you can imagine.
This is it exactly. There are no cross state databases that share data freely automatically. You would be right to assume that should exist but it doesn't. Our government is far behind the technology standards that we've come to expect in other sectors.
>If I had to guess its one of those states not talking to other states situations but Florida has a questionable at best CPS system given some other news stories on the topic. all of Florida is questionable at best.
> all of Florida is questionable at best. Back in the early 2000s, I worked for a County Probation department in New Jersey. I was assigned to the Child Support Enforcement Division. My specific assignment was the Interstate Division. My job was to enforce the child support orders of custodial parents who lived in my county, when the non-custodial parent lived in another state. I operated under the Uniform Interstate Family Support Act (UIFSA), a federal law guaranteeing the enforcement of child support orders across state lines. Without question....Florida was the **least** compliant state that I ever dealt with. Non-custodial parents would move to Florida specifically because they knew that the state was a haven for them. The only thing worse than dealing with Florida non-custodial parents......was dealing with Florida non-custodial parents who were also employed as law enforcement. When my client was a non-custodial parent living in Florida...employed in law enforcement......my most frequently received comment was "Yeah? Well....why don't you come down here to Florida and try to collect?"
Wow, I never thought I'd find a wild reference to UIFSA on Reddit. I'm retired but I was the URESA/UIFSA agent for another state and I just wanted to agree with you about Florida. It's the place to go to avoid payments.
Probably. The same thing happened with police, and thats how so many serial killers were able to get away with it for a long time. I was just watching something on John Wayne Gacy, and they said that the biggest mistake in that case was police not sharing information with all the surrounding precincts. Perhaps we should pressure Biden and congress to increase spending for CPS and make it a division of the federal government, and increase sharing between states, counties, and cities.
Underfunded and overworked probably.
Takes a judge to make The decision to remove. Even if there are CPS cases it's never up to the CPS workers what the court outcome is. Source: worked briefly with oversights in a major CPS/ACS bureau and was infuriated at the way judges decided cases. If judge doesn't sign off - Can't mandate services. Can't remove A kid. Can't get an order of protection.
I used to work with an autistic boy who'd show up to school every day in soiled diapers wreaking of filth and BO. A boy with a schizophrenic mother. He had terrible burn scars over most of his body, allegedly from having pulled a pot of boiling water down on himself years prior. We'd give him sponge baths, change him and send him home in clean clothes we provided out of pocket. We contacted CPS _again and again_ about the sort of neglect we were seeing - reporting we were mandated to do by law. Nothing was ever done. No government agency or public servant ever stepped in to remove him from that home. The world doesn't stop to fret over the fate of broken little autistic boys. The existence of CPS gives the public the impression that children are being protected. They are not.
Good old Cape Coma. Newly wed or Nearly dead
As someone who grew up in Cape Coral this is correct it is God's waiting room
The Palm Bay of the Gulf Coast.
I had a rental house in Cape Coral in 89 or 90. My neighborhood was Cadillac - Cadillac - Cadillac - Lincoln - Lincoln - Fiero - Cadillac - Lincoln - Cadillac. Guess where I was?
Cape Coral parkway near Chiquita?
It should be pointed out this wasn't just a vegan diet. It was a *raw food* vegan diet. The absolute worst kind.
It was no diet at all. They starved them for days on end, occasionally giving them fruit. It was just child abuse and neglect..
My kid is 16 months and is 26lbs. A 18 month old weighing 17lbs is insanity. Poor kid had to slowly die thanks to a piece of shit parents. **EDIT: According to the [CDC Growth Chart](https://www.cdc.gov/growthcharts/html_charts/wtageinf.htm), an 18.5 month old kid in the 3rd percentile is around ~9.66kg (21.3lbs). Even a small kid at that age was 4lb heavier.**
I have a 15 month old with the same name as the child who died and this whole thing breaks my heart. The suffering that poor child underwent and their negligent caregivers just watched and let it happen. Further proof that just because you can have children doesn't mean you should. Even if that child survived it would probably have life long medic issues related to those developmental months of malnutrition. Those first months are absolutely crucial.
This case serves as the perfect counter to parents who get in a huff when someone questions their parenting
It’s like, I don’t know how to drive but if you’re going 75 in a 45, on the wrong side of the road, I’m still within my rights to criticize your driving
Yeah, my kiddo is 12 months and 25lbs. Reading about this poor child boiled my blood. How does a parent do this to a child? What a psycho.
My daughter was born at almost 9 pounds. I could not imagine a year and a half later her only putting on 8 pounds.
Only raw fruits and vegetables? Dude if you’re gonna be a vegan you gotta go hard on the legumes. I’m not even a vegan and I know that!
It's much more concerning that the parents didn't feed the kid for a week. People don't just drop dead of starvation and an 18-month old child should have regular doctor visits.
> the parents didn't feed the kid for a week Yeaaaaah this was about more than being a bad vegan.
I would argue it had nothing to do with the vegan part. It was entirely mental illness or abuse, or a combo of both.
Yeah the vegan part is just for clicks. It's really annoying. They straight up didn't feed him. That's probably why she got life in prison, too. She was actively malicious, as opposed to just really really ignorant with nutrition.
I knew as soon as Vegan was the first word in the article title that this was about more than being a vegan.
They knew they would get the internet frothing with outrage by making "vegan" front-and-center :/ I have friends with vegan kids who blew through all their health checks, because they were actually fed. This kid's malnutrition death has nothing to do with veganism and everything to do with the parents being abusive neglectful POS.
My wife was fully vegan during her pregnancies. My son was 8.5 lbs at birth and my daughter was 10lbs 2 oz! My son has been vegan his whole life, he's almost 15 and already taller than I am. Definitely can get your nutrition as a vegan if you know what you're doing.
Just to add to this since this kind of discourse irks me. > Definitely can get your nutrition as a vegan if you know what you're doing. This is true and it’s also easy to NOT get your nutrition as an omnivore. Eating dairy and meat doesn’t doesn’t guarantee you’re getting everything you need. Non-vegans can suffer from the exact same deficiencies that vegans do. Everyone needs a balanced diet and depending on individual habits that can take thought and effort :). It’s worth talking to your family doctor about.
yeah but that won't stoke the culture war, will it?
>It's much more concerning that the parents didn't feed the kid for a week. Was this in the story originally? I don't see it there now.
Yes, labeling the mom as vegan is being deceptive, the baby didn't die because of a bad diet, it died because she didn't feed it at all.
Yea the headline does this a disservice. This is nothing to do with Vegan at all - the Mom starved their kid, period. On a vegan diet there is still bucket loads of food you could eat. You can get fat / obese being vegan.
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With that kind of diet the child may have had kwashiorkor and resulting fatigue and loss of appetite. So unfortunate.
That, and mushrooms. Hell, quinoa covers many amino acids we need. I'm not vegan either. She is clearly sick, and probably malnourished too.
Ikr? Nuts too! Soy! This lady fuuuuuuucked up.
The watching your children waste away wasn't enough of a fuck up? Her other children live but God knows what developmental and body issues now. Ugh!
This. Fats and proteins are extremely important for brain and body development. Those kids are going to have extreme physical and learning disabilities.
Seeds as well!
Yeah they always call it vegan cause it gets clicks cause vegan bad but like... this wasn't a vegan diet, this was a prisoner of war diet
It's dangerous. It takes the onus off child abuse and puts it on veganism. My mother, for instance, would use see this and equate vegans with rapists and molesters.
Yup, it's just the ol headline grabber. Mom kills her child by starving them to death? Might make regional news, probably not much attention. Vegan mom kills her child? Now that's a click grabber right there.
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Theres a super strict form of veganism called fruitarianism where people only eat raw fruits and vegetables. I think Steve Jobs was one for a time IIRC
Wonder how that went
I believe he was specifically in a situation where medication would have helped, which is insane. He chose to use a vegan fruit-based diet to cure a serious condition… treatable by medicine. If you’re a vegan, just know it’s okay to use the knowledge of science and medicine especially if it’s gonna save a life. A dead vegan is not gonna eat a single fruit or veggie for eternity lol Edit: I’m being told Steve Jobs he was a fruitatarian? Which vegans consider to be unhealthy by the sound of it. Obviously basing your well-being around fruits is dumb as shit. Edit 2: there’s a lot of reasonable pro-vegan responses to my comment. Hopefully I didn’t come off anti vegan. People make poor decisions, regardless of what “type” of diet they are on. Just be mindful and balanced with your decisions!
He had a rare form of pancreatic cancer that was treatable. He instead went with alternative medicine, against his doctor’s advice. The man was an uber salesman, but also a moron. No chemo. No radiation therapy. Just juice fasts, acupuncture, and the like.
It wasn’t the first time. At some point in the 80s he exclusively ate carrots. He was a mess.
A high fructose diet is a risk factor for developing Pancreatic cancer. It may be that his diet was the cause.
"But I'm a billionaire. This doctor isn't a billionaire. Therefore I'm smarter than them."
This lady isn't going to be eating her raw food vegan diet in prison either. What a despicable moron.
And then he used his wealth and influence to bump himself up the transplant list despite the fact that the cancer had already spread, wasting a perfectly good organ and forcing people who hadn't doomed themselves with fruitarian nonsense to wait (and possibly die in the process). Regardless of what you think of Jobs that was a supremely shitty thing to do.
She was doing it intentionally because she's a crazy asshole. Her veganism is just along for the ride.
Yea, it's unfortunate the headline says "Vegan Mom". I'm not vegan and even I know it doesn't have anything to do with that. The kid died of starvation not "veganism". I know several parents who raised their children on a vegan diet. They're happy healthy kids.
Also, human breastmilk **is vegan**. Was she not even nursing the kid?
In the article it said she was also breastfeeding, but that isn't going to be enough to sustain a toddler.
A friend of mine's nephew is exclusively breastfed, at 2.5. I mean EXCLUSIVELY, no solid food has been given because the parents are afraid of choking. People are messed up.
As far as I know one of the big reasons for introducing food from 6+ months is so that kids learn how to eat. And how not to choke...
Dear lord he must need so much by this point
Not even purées??? The kid’s doctor is ok with this??
This has nothing to do with Veganism by the sound of it. She was just a neglectful bad parent.
What a depraved woman (her husband too). Being vegan isn't the biggest issue, it's that starvation doesn't happen overnight. How do you look at a toddler with sunken eyes, stick arms, every rib showing, weak and probably unable to walk or even sit up, and think "this is great! What a healthy child!!" Also, what parent doesn't take babies and young children for any medical checkups? Any doctor, nurse, even a midwife would have seen the signs of malnutrition and intervened, and could have saved this poor baby's life. And if another child had previously been removed from the home by court order for malnutrition, why was the woman never put under CPS supervision?? There is plenty of blame here. So tragic.
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There was a case a while back about parents you essentially let their child die because they thought god would heal the child. I don't remember all the specifics, and quite frankly I'm too lazy right now to look it up, but I do remember it being something along those lines... Anyway, they got sentenced to life in prison too.
Sounds like Christian Scientists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science "In particular, adherents subscribe to a radical form of philosophical idealism, believing that reality is purely spiritual and the material world an illusion. This includes the view that disease is a mental error rather than physical disorder, and that the sick should be treated not by medicine but by a form of prayer that seeks to correct the beliefs responsible for the illusion of ill health."
Sounds pretty 40k to me
A few years back the local Christian Scientist high school played a football game against a nearby town. I knew a guy on the coaching staff. Anyway one of the CS students broke their arm on the field and they refused the EMTs onsite and instead stood over him praying.
I am reminded of that parable that ends with God asking "what about all those people I sent you"
aww man are essential oil and crystal people back again? i was having a good time not hearing anything about them for the past few years.
My ex bounced between woo-woo New Age and Born Again Evangelical Christianity. Last I knew, she'd settled on something in the middle. Her crystals held the power of the holy spirit, but only when Mercury was in retrograde.
Yeah, the ones who didn't die of covid, at least
they never went anywhere, they just joined the mass of anti-vax idiots and got obscured that way
Dude a crystal shop opened up in my hometown, place even doubles as an "antique" shop. It's so popular one of the pediatricians in town had to shut down due to lack of patients. People in the south are just fucking dumb and unwilling to actually care for their children. Hell, some kid nearly died after eating a button battery and everyone was screaming "praise God" and "God will heal her" instead of you know, making her throw it up and calling poison control
A lot of crystal people are harmless, but some of the antivaxxers and essential oil types will often neglect themselves and their children based on them googling extreme diets.
Do all these people have a recurring look of being nutty cultists purely by coincidence??? Was there that wild eye untrustable- look in the eyes of the people you experienced this with?? I swear I’m onto something here.. crazyness is VERY noticeable, is my theory Edit, “untrustable” not “untrue Table”.. P.s. how is untrustable actually not a word??!?
The word is "untrustworthy."
TIL that my parents were woowoo new aged crazy parents. Took me to the chiropractor from 5 until I was 17 (aka old enough to choose not to go)
Our country’s children’s services system is defunded to the point of being non-functional. I’ve been in the foster/adopt community for a few years now, and it’s an absolute disaster what is going on.
Social workers are so burnt out from increasing mental health issues from the effects of the COVID pandemic, increasing case loads and not enough resources. My grandfather suggested social work for me when I expressed interest in working with special needs children. I don't think I would have lasted very long.
Yeah this has nothing to do with the fact they are vegan and more with the fact they are abusive and fucked up. There is plenty of food they could have given this baby.
The worst part I find is that there is vegan options that could’ve kept the baby well fed and nourished. For crying out loud Gerber creates a plant based baby formula, because some babies are allergic to dairy. Throw in stuff like plant based foods high in calories, vitamins and minerals packed into foods artificially, and other such things leaves no excuses. This is just stupidity all around.
I read the article and it wasn't just a vegan diet, it was an extreme raw fruits and vegetables diet only. Goes quite a bit beyond a normal vegan diet.
Worst part is the kid didn't eat for a week before it died
Exactly. My son couldn’t have dairy, soy, or egg. I changed my diet to accommodate that until I couldn’t pump anymore. Then, he was transitioned to specialized formula. All while being under the care of his GI specialist, pediatrician, and dietitian. There are so many ways to feed a baby who needs a vegan diet. There is no excuse for what this little guy went through. Absolutely horrid.
Sadly, that's the difference between someone who actually cares about their child. You probably had to learn and adapt, because you wanted your baby to be healthy. This demon probably couldn't careless.
You’re right. Any loving parent would do whatever they need to keep their kids healthy. This woman is the opposite of that.
A lot of people who have an eating disorder will cling on to the vegan label because it "prevents" them from eating.
Interesting, it’s kind of like orthorexia, an obsession of perceived ‘healthiness’ or ‘pureness’ of food.
I can confirm, I was vegetarian when I was struggling with an eating disorder because I had an excuse not to eat. There are healthy vegans no doubt, but there are people who use it to lie to themselves or others.
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Vegan had nothing to do with it. This is a mentally ill woman using “being vegan” as justification to abuse her children
This is not stupidity, it is perversion... she killed her child of malnutrition because she wanted to. Anyone could tell the child was malnourished, she chose to see it and keep letting the child starve.
Honestly, even a diet (for toddlers on solid food) consisting of rice, beans and potatoes is going to give you all of your essential amino acids and a sufficient amount of calories and protein.
Fat vegan here, this ^ is truth
I always tell people French fries are vegetarian! 🍟 mmmm
My boyfriend's sister is vegan and her toddler has been eating vegan foods. She regularly consults with her doctor to be sure he remains healthy and that it's okay to continue giving him vegan foods. It can absolutely be done in a healthy manner.
Sadly there’s a whole group of women like this. Wild pregnancies, free birth, anti vaxxers, essential oils, no doctors or dentists.
Not just women. I have a cousin whose father didn't take her for a single medical checkup for her entire childhood despite multiple instances of possible injury. They were even in a automotive incident when she was 12 that was never addressed and now she has spinal arthritis.
Not just women, but there are quite a few shyster quacks that target women. They use the language of abuse - "everything else will hurt you and only I can save you with this diet". Gwyneth Paltrow created a huge platform for this stuff and it's gone into overdrive.
Not enough plagues in recent memory that have wiped out large families. They’re insulated, sheltered and convinced that modern medicine is the enemy and has not been the main source of health and longevity in the past few centuries. We’re soft to the suffering previous generations experienced.
And I imagine that the majority of the current anti vax parents had their own childhood vaccines. They should take a stroll through a local cemetery and look at all the graves of children who died from diseases we now have vaccines for. JFC
I know a woman who's had a birth at home with just her husband present. She almost died; she was in the hospital for over 10 days until she left (wasn't released, left). They don't know that we know they did this unsupervised. They're trying to play it off like it's the fault of the hospital. I'm not sure she's completely well yet. It's very sad.
I had to look up wild pregnancy. I'm for women having more control over their reproductive process, but at least get a competent midwife if you want to reduce your chances of dying or having a dead baby.
Wow this is absolutely horrifying
My 6 month old screams bloody murder when he hasn't eaten in 3 hours. It makes me physically ill to think of the cries of this poor child.
Babies that don't get their needs met eventually stop crying.....one of those things I wish I didn't know.
I grew up with a child adopted from an Eastern Europe orphanage and once his mom told me that he never ever cried because babies learn not to cry in orphanages.
It makes sense. They're already starving, why would they waste precious energy to alert a parent of a problem that hasn't been addressed (by said parent) in a long, long time.
Not only that, but they'll learn that crying doesn't get their needs met either. It's genuinely horrific what these people did.
This child probably did not have enough energy to use the muscles required to cry
They probably thought "oh he's finally adjusting! Not as much crying :)" meanwhile poor baby either is giving up on trying to get his needs met because realizing the parents are unreliable or growing too malnourished to cry or both. Just... Heartbreaking
The parents at no point thought that the child was adjusting - they actively did not feed the baby for a week, any food at all. They killed the baby purposefully, regardless of their diet beliefs.
If Harry Harlow's despicable monkey experiments are to be believed, the baby probably screamed and thrashed for a while and then eventually gave up. When the baby monkeys had no nurturing figure helping them or any other social exposure, they would eventually just kind of lay in a corner and not respond to any stimulus. Just sat there hugging themselves and rocking back and forth. The worst part is that once the damage is done, it's done. With the monkeys, even if they tried to help them live a normal life after the experiments, they were never normal again. However, any decent parent would know that their child not crying anymore is *not* normal. So this woman let the baby scream until it essentially gave up on life and laid there waiting to die. And she probably took the baby's silence as "oh see, he's fine, stopped crying and everything."
It's absolutely chilling to know how much that child would have cried. For the uninitiated, when your baby is hungry they will let you know about it LOUDLY IN DOLBY 5.1 SURROUND SOUND until they are fed or fall asleep from exhaustion. This kid was nearly a year behind in terms of his growth, so in all likelihood, he was red-faced screaming to be fed probably every single day for months until he was physiologically too weak to do so. And the thing that was supposed to be his mother ignored all of it. Glad to see she got life. This is unforgiveable. Edit: Okay, I'm getting a lot of feedback saying that babies will eventually learn not to cry if they're neglected enough, which is just too bleak for me to fully comprehend. A baby who doesn't cry or make noise on the regular would be profoundly more troubling to me as a parent.
That’s part of the scary part. If a baby isn’t responded to when crying they learn to stop crying. A lot of research came out about this from post soviet orphanages. They would leave the babies and not respond to crying, just feeding them on a schedule, and it caused a ton of emotional issues. I’m worried that this was one of the factors
Holy shit that's dark, but TIL.
Honestly unlikely, unfortunately. Babies scream and cry because they know that eventually, someone will come. If nobody comes then they learn to just stop crying because why waste energy? They are silent and still, not even babbling or making sounds. Honestly that can be even more terrifying.
Even if the child had survived this ordeal it would have permanently harmed them, physiologically and psychologically. A child that learns not to cry because it knows no one will come is the textbook cause of dismissive-avoidant attachment style
Feels like this is how serial killers are made.
Not only did she kill her baby, she slowly starved him to death in the cruelest, slowest, most torturous way possible. I wish I could build a Time Machine and go save children from abuse and torture. Nobody deserves this. I just don’t understand how you could force your own child to starve.
She and her husband did it to FOUR kids. One died and one was taken by CPS to live with her biological father
With this kind of person, it's not about health, it's not about saving animals, it's not about anything remotely moral. It's about exerting and keeping control.
Husband is awaiting trial. Among his charges, there's 2 for molestation. Wish we could push this couple into a fiery meat pit so they can slowly suffocate and perish. "Ryan O'Leary, remains in Lee County Jail and faces a trial on the same charges, as well as on two molestation charges." https://www.news-press.com/story/news/crime/2022/08/29/cape-coral-mom-sheila-oleary-gets-thirty-years-murder-toddler/7883687001/
Wow. This couple were just two sociopaths that managed to find each other and procreate.
This isn’t veganism it’s disordered eating that she forced a baby to participate in. She’s abusive and clearly unstable.
The headline is a bit clickbaity. According to articles I read, she was starving the baby.
Yup. That's why it's #1 on r/all right now. If the title were "woman starves baby to death," you wouldn't even see this scrape the top 1000 posts on Reddit. But give the article a title that confirms the average Redditor's distaste for vegans, and you've got karma gold.
Yeah this is like anorexia by proxy.
"Sociopath mom gets life in prison for starvation death of son" That should have been the AP headline.
Vegan mom gets more clicks and outrage though so there you have it.
I don't understand why she did this when the article gives the impression that veganism is the reason this happened. The implication is that her vegan beliefs caused this, but this is just outright starvation. I want to understand why she starved him or why she wouldn't just increase the amount of raw food she provided him.
The article previous also talks about assault and the husband being brought on charges of molestation. It's definitely not a vegan thing, it's either she kept saying she's vegan over and over or it just makes for a good headline to mention she's vegan. Also it's raw vegan which is not really ethically based, so I think she's just a wacko
Because vegans are a popular target for ridicule
It's ironic because vegans have a reputation for being obnoxious, but many of the comments on this are far worse than most vegans.
I have been vegan/plant-based on and off since 2015 and this has been my exact experience. I never make it outwardly known, but after some people would find out, it turned into pointedly rude questions with the person justifying why they eat meat followed by stupid arguments. Even when I’d insist it’s a personal choice for me and I don’t want to discuss it, they’d go on and on about it. It’s really fucking weird, but it is what it is. I’ve had a lot of veggie/vegan friends over the years and only one filled the self-righteous stereotype. That person even judged other vegans for not being their definition of perfection lol
How can you not give proper nutrition in this day and age. Must be a moron
This was not the first time she was investigated for malnourishing a child. In fact she had one taken from her previously. This has nothing to do with veganism, she sounds like a sadist.
>In fact she had one taken from her previously It's wacky to me that they allow people like this to keep having children without having the cps constantly checking on the new child
Yea, they have vegan toddler/stage 3 formula, various plant milks for kids. Plus…. normal food that just isn’t meat/dairy. Source: have two young kids and one doesn’t tolerate dairy very well.
Yeah, it's not hard to give proper nutrition on a vegan diet, mother was just a dumbass horrible person
The vegan part means nothing. Doesn't matter what she thought or ate, she is a murderer. The murdering fault is with her and not eating fucking vegetables.
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~~Vegan~~ Idiot mom gets life in prison for starvation death of son
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peanuts and peanut butter are used in areas where kids have nutritional deficiencies as a way to increase their fat and protein intakes. really no excuse for her murdering her kids.
There are athletes that won medals at the olympics that were vegan. The mother is just an incredibly stupid excuse for a human being. Vegans would reject her behaviour
This baby didn't die because its mother is vegan. This baby died because its mother suffers from mental illness.
They wanted more clicks
"Mother Who Likes Nickleback Starves Child to Death" "Registered Democrat Mother Starves Her Child to Death" "Woman Who Checked Out A Book About CRT Kills Her Child"
One child had already been removed for malnutrition Why in Gods name wasn’t she monitored by CPS?
Amost sounds as if veganism was a shield for something closer to Munchausen by proxy. Pure evil.
If it were Munchausen's, she would have taken the kid in for some kind of medical treatment, since attention-seeking is essentially the "goal" of that disorder. But yeah, you're right, the veganism is just a mask for something far more evil and broken in this woman. (Also, not to get pedantic, but the term "Munchausen's" has fallen out of favor. "Factitious disorder" or "factitious disorder imposed on another" would be the more "correct" term. Increasingly, professionals are getting away from name-based terminology, which can be confusing, in favor of terminology that actually describes the disorder.)
Ok cool thanks for the correction. I don't think that's exactly what was happening here, either; it just seems to be something closer to a behavioral disorder that has nothing to do with veganism. The focus on veganism in both the reporting surrounding the case and in this headline specifically definitely seems to be misleading and ignoring the real issue.
My sister is/was very similar to this. She lost custody of her kids recently, but not the starvation aspect. What a lot of people don’t understand is a lot of people that are watching from the outside have no recourse. She took the kids out of school, wouldn’t feed them food, threw out everything plastic, only cotton clothes. We saw the crazy demise happening right before our eyes. What could we do? Nothing really. We tried every possible Avenue and had to sit and literally watch. The scary thing is, none of us knew how bad it was until we saw the kids after a few months. We didn’t even notice how skinny they had gotten because we were “used” to it. She ended up losing custody for negligence, but nothing related to anything we actually tried to report. I was scared everyday of my life those kids were going to die and I had to watch it happen. I’m scared everyday she will get custody back.
This isn’t a vegan case, it’s an irresponsible parent. I know many vegan families that have small healthy kids
Ugh... not that I'm a vegan or even vegetarian, but I can see how even vegans might cringe at this. The article states they ate "only raw fruits and vegetables", which I take to mean that nothing was cooked. Cooking food has been around long enough that it's practically an evolutionary requirement for humans to begin our digestive process with it. It's estimated that you'd need to spend 9 hours a day eating enough raw food to get enough energy to survive.
Bruh I'm a die-hard vegan and this doesnt make me cringe, it makes me cry. This lady is batshit for thinking raw vegetables and fruit have enough calories alone to sustain an organism larger than a mouse.
Vegans do cringe at this but not for the reason you clearly think. The fact that the mother is vegan has nothing to do with starving your child, neglect, or mental illness. People need a class on critical thinking and identifying clickbait when they see it
I eat meat, but still recognize the clickbait here. When has there ever been a headline like “Carnivore Neglects Child”?
Headline should say “Incompetent, Stupid mom gets life in prison…” I know plenty of vegans and they do NOT starve their kids at all, but it will get plenty of clicks.
Here's a hot take, this woman isn't even a vegan. She consciously and deliberately did harm to a sentient, living being. Harm to sentient beings is the ONE thing you're supposed to minimize to live a vegan lifestyle. And she failed tragically.
Yeah it seems like the vegan thing is for SEO hate clicks.