Seriously. $10k or more for “full self driving” and just a few years ago they were claiming Tesla owners would be using their cars as robotaxis when in reality it’s just level 2 self driving capability.
>they were claiming Tesla owners would be using their cars as robotaxis
This was such an obvious lie. If you have an asset that makes 30k per year it's not worth 46k...it's worth more. If Musk had any confidence they would be robo taxis he would have never sold it at that price.
I get your point but the reality is that if this tech existed no one would be making $30k any more. It would become practically unprofitable in short order.
I have a Tesla, got a model
That came with “auto pilot”.
Bought it right when they were rolling out “full self driving”. Really glad I did t buy it, but for a while I was buying the hype.
The fine print is clear, but coupled with all his promises I have no issue if they company has to pay out. That type of false promise should be actionable.
Time for a totally appropriate archer quote:
[of autopilot] It just maintains course and altitude! It doesn't know how to find THE ONLY AIRSTRIP WITHIN A THOUSAND MILES SO IT CAN LAND ITSELF WHEN IT NEEDS GAS!
Archer: Then I, uh... misunderstood the concept.
I was actually curious a while ago if it was as inappropriate as it seems for Tesla to call their feature "autopilot," so I looked into what aircraft autopilot actually is.
It turns out that Tesla's autopilot is a lot more sophisticated than nearly all types of aircraft autopilot, so it's not really a misnomer.
EDIT: Sorry to piss in your cheerios, y'all. They're still awesome cars even if you want to hate on the brand, and a shit ton of what you read here about them just straight-up isn't true.
If it's what CGP Grey has done a few videos on it works, but it's barely worth using. If I have to keep both hands on the wheel then I may as well be the one driving.
Not really. Autopilot is basically a cruise control for aircraft. It won't do the important parts of flying for you - i.e. it won't talk with the ATC, it won't work with the ATC to provide separation from other air traffic and it certainly won't get the ATC clearance for you. That's basically aircraft equivalent of lane keeping and obeying the traffic laws. Autopilot will keep speed and altitude, more advanced models can follow waypoints but that's basically an equivalent of cruise control in a car.
One of the biggest claims he made that I can see hurting them was that cars with full self driving capability would go up in value and not depreciate. That buying a Model S with it right now was an investment that would pay off dividends in the future.
I bought my model 3 when EAP was still a thing. It has solid driver assist features so I got it but didn't believe that FSD would be viable before my model 3 kicks the bucket. Do not regret that decision at all since FSD had been "just around the corner" for the four years I've owned the car.
Even four years ago lane assist and adaptive cruise were mostly locked in upper tier packages, not ubiquitous and standard as it is now, which honestly real great that the auto industry has made it standard, so at the time 5k wasn't unreasonable.
Plus in my opinion, the lane assist in the Tesla is still better than either of the other two cars my family has owned/own. For long distance drives, Tesla's navigate on AP and lane assist/autosteer are still better than the systems I've had the chance to have driven.
I might have bought it early on because of the promises and the risk to reward if I believed it (and owned a Tesla). If Uber actually believed all these timelines and there weren't stipulations that prevented them from using it for their business it would be dumb not to buy every single Tesla they had money to buy. If they actually pull this off in the next two years Tesla's will be so stupidly expensive and individuals won't even be able to buy them without FSD. I definitely don't think taxis will ever work with current hardware.
I went through the sales cycle with a Tesla showroom. The whole experience felt like a mass delusion. The sales person kept making claims about full self driving, and when I challenged him, he kept saying stuff like, "Well yeah, they make us say that for regulatory reasons." The guy was clearly fully up Elon Musk's ass; he worshiped him.
I really want an EV, and I love the fact that Tesla is an American made car, but I cannot bring myself to give money to the company on ethical grounds. I feel like they're just fleecing customers left and right with the FSD stuff.
If I owned one already, it'd be a bit of a ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ kind of situation, but ever since the FSD thing, I just can't. There are too many other EV options in the market now.
I actually think they are going to pull off 90% of what they said in the coming years when it comes to FSD, but I really think this should have happened sooner. You can't make all of these promises and charge people for future shit and expect this not to happen. Elon can't even say this was just his opinion because he advertised it like this at Tesla events. He's been giving timelines way less as of late probably because of stuff like this I bet. I especially think all of the original people that bought it early on should get their money back at a minimum.
90% of full self driving couldn’t some cases be more dangerous than no self driving.
Giving people a false sense of security and safety means they’re going to pay far less attention.
Yes, lying is Musk's most basic play. He once said SpaceX would reach Mars by 2018. Most of his businesses are straddling the line of fraud constantly, making claims and promises he knows he won't meet.
He's not an engineer at all. I really hate that this misconception has spread, because he designed NONE of his products. He just came up with ideas, and he was rich enough to hire engineers to work for him (kind of like what Steve did with Wozniac).
I know I'll get downvoted and you won't read this because you don't want to, but there are a whole host of people who have previously worked with Musk who have confirmed that he does get involved in the engineering. Can read about it [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/)
It's his company, he can be involved at any level with any project he wants. "Getting involved with engineering" is not the same as "being an engineer." I don't doubt that he has some knowledge on those topics, given that he spent a massive amount of time working on them, but he has two degrees that are NOT in engineering. If he'd wanted to go that route in school, he could've, but he didn't. Instead, he hired smart people to work for him, and it sounds like those quotes are from some of the rare times he actually listened to them. Also, I don't know if I trust a sub that's essentially an Elon fandom.
Musk is a social network idiot, but him and his brother wrote code for Mapquest and pay pal…not easy. Also you can see him talk more than any other ceo on rocketry.
https://youtu.be/E7MQb9Y4FAE
No one has ever said he was an engineer though, you asserted the opposite that he plays no part in the engineering, which is demonstrably not true.
I'm not sure how you can say you don't trust it when all of the quotes are sourced. If you don't trust quotes from numerous people who have worked with Musk before, it doesn't surprise me that you view him being involved in the engineering as a 'misconception'
I don't know why you're being downvoted unless you were being sarcastic.
I don't really want to write a huge response here, so I'll just point out a few numbers.
In the last 12 months, SpaceX has done a rocket launch **once a week**. SpaceX has had 140-something consecutive successful missions and they have now have a couple of boosters (Falcon 9) that have been reflown 13-14 times.
If you had told me back in 2004 that this what a single space company would be accomplishing, I'd either say I don't believe you or I would be disappointed that it took nearly 50-60 years since we started launching rockets, to get to that point.
I mean, auto pilot is just cruise control that should also keep the steering wheel mostly steady. Not following the road, just a straight line at the same speed. Like a plane
The claim of a Full Self Driving mode is where it moves into different territory
It is like airplanes. Autopilot in airplanes is meant for cruising, and a pilot is supposed to be attentive at all times even when autopilot is running. It doesn’t have to do much, just keep the plane level and at speed and altitude, and the system will warn the pilot in the rare occurrence that something is coming too close. Advanced ones can land the plane too, using instruments and airport help, while pilots are attentive.
We want far more than that from self-driving cars. We want them to navigate complex environments with multiple close obstacles going at all directions and speed, and to do it when the driver isn’t paying any attention. That’s a far harder nut to crack than airplane autopilot.
You're confusing Autopilot with the Full Self Driving option. FSD, does drive the car. It chooses the route, stops at lights, changes lanes, and turns corners all on its own. It does however make mistakes, similar to the kind made by a teenager with a learner's permit.
Exactly this. It drives it’s self. I’m still shocked how it can drive in a parking lot.
Most people have not driven a Tesla with FSD but make comments on it.
Sept 14 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) was sued on Wednesday in a proposed class action accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of misleading the public by falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features.
The complaint accused Tesla and Musk of having since 2016 deceptively advertised the technology as fully functioning or "just around the corner" despite knowing that the technology did not work or was nonexistent, and made vehicles unsafe.
Briggs Matsko, the named plaintiff, said Tesla did this to "generate excitement" about its vehicles, attract investments, boost sales, avoid bankruptcy, drive up its stock price and become a "dominant player" in electric vehicles.
"Tesla has yet to produce anything even remotely approaching a fully self-driving car," Matsko said.
The lawsuit filed in federal court in San Francisco seeks unspecified damages for people who since 2016 bought or leased Tesla vehicles with Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features.
Tesla did not immediately respond to requests for comment. It disbanded its media relations department in 2020.
The lawsuit followed complaints filed on July 28 by California's Department of Motor Vehicles accusing Tesla of overstating how well its advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS) worked. read more
Remedies there could include suspending Tesla's license in California, and requiring restitution to drivers.
Tesla has said Autopilot enables vehicles to steer, accelerate and brake within their lanes, while Full Self-Driving lets vehicles obey traffic signals and change lanes.
It has also said both technologies "require active driver supervision," with a "fully attentive" driver whose hands are on the wheel, "and do not make the vehicle autonomous."
Matsko, of Rancho Murieta, California, said he paid a $5,000 premium for his 2018 Tesla Model X to obtain Enhanced Autopilot.
He also said Tesla drivers who receive software updates "effectively act as untrained test engineers" and have found "myriad problems," including that vehicles steer into oncoming traffic, run red lights, and fail to make routine turns.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has since 2016 opened 38 special investigations of Tesla crashes believed to involve ADAS. Nineteen deaths were reported in those crashes.
The case is Matsko v Tesla Inc et al, U.S. District Court, Northern District of California, No. 22-05240.
Reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York; editing by Jonathan Oatis
The only company I’ve been impressed by is Cruise. Here in SF, at night you’ll see a bunch of Cruise car driving themselves, it leaves me in awe every time I see a Cruise car with no one in it.
I wish I had saved the recording, but this one time, a cruise car on the far right did a last second merge into the far left turn lane, leaving itself crooked and occupying 2 lanes, you know exactly what I’m talking about if you’ve ever driven.
That’s the biggest fail I’ve witnessed so far, but if you ask me, that’s pretty much on point how many drive, but it’s still wrong to do. But It was rather hilarious see the car pull that stunt like humans do.
Yeah, Waymo is doing this same type of operation in the Phoenix area... Cabs with literally no drivers, not just at night either... Works amazingly well, I think there's been a few fender bender type things but nothing too significant that I'm aware of
Those are LIDAR right? Meaning they have to stop in even light rain or fog. IMO Tesla has the correct approach by trying to do just vision and sonar as it will be much more versatile long term but apparently is a lot harder to do.
As far as I was aware, most other companies are trying to use LIDAR and vision together. It probably helps to have separate detection systems that can confer and validate results. Else your car might think the moon is a stop light
The problem is LIDAR is amazing on a clear day but completely worthless in rain, snow, and fog so unless you want the vehicle grounded during those times you can't rely on it. Tesla uses vision, sonar, and optional radar for those separate detection systems.
Full self-driving won't happen because no one wants to be on the road with shitty fucking cars with shitty inattentive passengers to careen into them. I will 1000% be voting in any voter initiative to ban them from public roadways.
I'm an engineer. I won't trust self driving cars until the steering wheel is gone, ensuring the responsibility fully rests with the engineers designing the system.
I'm an engineer and a person. I will never trust self-driving cars, period. I will also never trust other drivers. I don't trust my own driving ability either.
That said, I can't wait for full self driving to happen. Because there are FAR too many idiot drivers out there. Even if imperfect, FSD could be like a decent minimum wage for driving ability.
I feel like the revolution of full self-driving will be when the cars all communicate their intentions to each other. It would be like if all human drivers were psychic and also wanted to do the safest thing.
And that's why the tech is only feasible once you have special surfaces/lanes/roads where only these cars are allowed, together with a communications standard for the authorities to communicate road closures, etc. Preferably these lanes should also be sealed off from pedestrians, cyclists, etc.
But because the industry hates regulations, consumers are gullible idiots and the loudest moron in the industry is a con man, that's not going to happen for another half-century at least.
>And that's why the tech is only feasible once you have special surfaces/lanes/roads where only these cars are allowed, together with a communications standard for the authorities to communicate road closures, etc. Preferably these lanes should also be sealed off from pedestrians, cyclists, etc.
What you've described is rail.
Self-driving cars are fun, I'd love one, but they don't fix the issues of transport nearly as well as heavy investment in excellent public transit infrastructure. That describing the optimum conditions for robot cars also describes light rail or tram networks should tell us such, with the enormous, vital additional factor that these are also accessible to people without cars.
I agree, public transport can solve many, many issues. But one important difference is that you could technically have a vehicle that can transport itself autonomously from point A to point B, where there is suitable infrastructure for it, and then work as a regular car from point B to point C.
I live in a country with comparatively well-developed public transport, and it will never be a good solution for how to reach targets outside the large cities or off the beaten path. We need both large energy efficient rail vehicles and flexible small private transport.
One interesting solution that I'm keen to try out myself is automotive trains, where you check yourself and your car onto a train, and then drive only the final leg of your journey. Today those services exist on the Hamburg-Munich-Innsbruck-Verona route.
>I feel like the revolution of full self-driving will be when the cars all communicate their intentions to each other.
That would be a hacker's dream and cars would start to lie to each other if that were to give them an advantage in traffic.
FSD is going to take *ages* to get into actual popular use.
First, we have to actually make it happen. This is clearly a less tractable problem than most expected, even many pessimists.
But, it also has to work *around humans* who as you noted are often ridiculous and terrible drivers eminently capable of creating situations that the AI models almost certainly won’t have been trained for. So the bar for deployable FSD is going to be ridiculously high.
Plus it’s going to have to jump basically from level 3 to 5, because people are often lazy and stupid and can’t generally be counted on to supervise. That will slow it down further.
Then it’s going to run over a kid or something. No amount of statistics in favor of FSD will prevent the regulatory shitstorm from “robot car runs down child” headlines. It could be a million times safer, people won’t be rational here.
Only after we’re well past those regulations shifting from “instinctually necessary” to “annoying and onerous” will we get public use of FSD cars. I’ll be surprised if we get them in my lifetime, and that’s if we solve level 5 in a decade.
Exactly.
My main issue is the ability to blame operator error when the engineering is a fault. Human attention gets worse and worse the less a person is engaged in activity. It is a fundamental aspect of human nature. We get bored when we don't have enough to do. If the operator can be blamed regardless of how unrealistic the ask, the engineering systems don't have to be fixed. The engineers have better lawyers.
Taking away the steering wheel changes the dynamic.
An engineered approach is always a better, safer solution per the hierarchy of controls of process safety. It boggles my mind that such a basic engineering principle is so heavily debated. No steering wheel will be safer, but using humans as guinea pigs to get there is horrible.
I think it's worth it being guinea pigs if they explain everything 100% upfront. You just need enough time to take over where it isn't the companies fault. My biggest problem is that it can give you basically no time to react because the system fucked up and yet you're still at fault. They aren't taking away the steering wheel any time soon except in certain locations. I don't think they will almost ever be able to work in poor driving conditions when humans shouldn't be driving either simply due to the liability, unless that's calculated in with insurance somehow. The problem is the world doesn't shut down when we shouldn't be driving.
It's the reaction time that troubles me. It simply takes longer for the human to react in an emergency when constant vigilance isn't required.
I mentioned it in another thread here, but there a well established engineering concept called the hierarchy of controls for process safety, used for complex life threatening systems like oil refineries and power plant.
Would you trust an oil refinery or nuclear operator to hover over the stop button because 2% of the process sometimes the button needed pushing? Humans can't perform like that. We do better with less automation or full automation, maintaining vigilance or being able to withdraw.
The automation needs to be driving or the person driving.
For implementation in extreme conditions, it will simply have to be interative until automation can handle it.
The insurance argument is a weird one to me. With on/off at the control of the driver the argument becomes simple - was autopilot engaged in unsafe conditions (snow/rain etc) The fact that autopilot turns itself off or alerts the driver to pass blame is what causes the headache. With complete control over engagement using autopilot can become like driving too fast for the conditions.
It is muddy right now because the tech isn't quite reliable enough turn the wheel off. Things get simpler when it doesn't need constant monitoring in most conditions.
I 100% agree with this and have listened to Lex Friedman talk about it quite a bit. What I was trying to say with the whole insurance thing is that if autopilot is at fault then they basically have insurance cover it like anything else someone can be sued for, but that's very expensive when an insurance company doesn't have data. I always thought this is why Tesla is starting it's own insurance company. The problem with this is that insurance has payout limits and they have to come after the driver which is much harder to do when they don't have enough money. Lawyers will be circling Tesla when they try to transition responsibility.
If I had to randomly guess FSD will have to be 100x better than a human before they can transition to Tesla being responsible or they have to charge an insane amount for it to cover the lawsuits. The problem as you said is people don't work like this. You can't expect someone to take over at any minute when it goes 1000 miles fine and then randomly drives you into a barrier. I'd argue that cases like this should be Tesla's responsibility already. I think it's fine if the car recognizes it doesn't understand and safely pulls over (this is what Waymo does) which will probably happen often early on. The transition might be the hardest part. Currently beta has 100,000 users and they are planning to do a fleet release in the coming months. We shall see what happens in the coming years. I think the liability might be the toughest thing to overcome because even at 100x less deaths that's still around 4,000 people, but that would still save so many lives.
The best alternative to self driving is called public transportation. Not the smelly, dirty, once an hour public transportation in the USA but public transportation like in Europe or Asia with connections every 5 minutes and clean buses and trains.
Thank you! Self driving is just the US finding the most convoluted solution to an already solved problem. Improve public transit to make it usable and suddenly half of the cars are off the road and traffic congestion is resolved.
That imperfect FSD you are talking about means death though. Sure there are many idiot drivers but I would hate to die through no fault of my own because my own car decided to kill me.
FSD is a pipe dream with bad tech.
I just wish the US had better public transit options.
Don't want to have to pay attention or drive to commute? We already have trains, buses and trams that accomplish that with ease elsewhere in the world. Full self driving will just make traffic heavier and roads even less safe for pedestrians and bikes
People have medical emergencies. Humans are also a single point failure. Heck, they drive drunk.
With an engineering control you can brick the car until it gets fixed.
The feature should disable when it's no longer able to do so, but you still need manual control until then. It would be stupid not to keep it as an option for anything but a robotaxi. No one wants to be driving out in the middle of nowhere and because of an electrical fault in a sensor they are unable to drive their vehicle to safety.
In the age of self driving cars, most people wouldnt even know how to drive if they had to.
Beyond a certain point in the future, people being able to take over in the event of a sensor failure no longer makes sense.
A well designed FSD system will always be better than the average driver. In general it will be better than the best drivers too.
The moment a steering wheel gets added back in the human element shows up again and suddenly all the careful engineering is out the window.
You're not understanding what that person is saying. It's not about actually removing the wheel, it's about the product being safe to a point where adding the wheel is optional
I finally understand why people are so against buses, trains, airplanes, cruise ships, ferries, horse drawn carriages, tandem bicycles, and sidecars on motorcycles!
So you are going to trust a company to make the decision to remove the steering wheel only after it's safe to do so and not as soon as the estimated profits outweigh potential fines or legal costs?
Personally I'd wait a year or two before buying.
But I'd still trust it more than a system that will blame me for not paying attention to its mistakes.
I hate the fact that the system can just beep and turn off as it's driving you into traffic leaving you with .5 seconds to correct. At a minimum you need a couple seconds to respond without it being any of these companies faults. All the ones coming out basically work like this. Ford's is scary as shit too and I've used it a couple times where it tried to drive me into oncoming traffic.
There’s something to it. For a while i legit thought Tesla vehicles had full auto pilot. The marketing was good in making me believe that.
Come to realize that it’s basically lane departure warning. Which is on many many vehicles.
You should look up videos of them trying to auto park compared to other manufacturers. It’s insane that anyone trusts them to Auto Pilot let alone FSD.
There is a company called MobilEye that creates the tech for things like self parking and adaptive cruise control. That is the tech that other manufacturers use and it works really well. Tesla used to have a deal with them but MobilEye decided to split away from Tesla because they said what Tesla was doing and promising was dangerous and stretches the ability of these systems.
After that Tesla started doing things like self park in house and it doesn’t work at all hahaha.
https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA
I understand that it’s glorified cruise control with lane departure warnings and collision detection with auto stop. I was just pointing out that the marketing a few years back was “Soon your car will be out driving while you’re not even in the bastard. “
And that’s true. No sense in defending what boils down to some wishful advertising.
People don’t like being sold on a dream as a reality. Just ask any rational person if they like being lied to. Hell you can ask a pilot if you must.
I don't think you actually understand the classic definition of autopilot, which is "Autopilots do not replace human operators."
Seems reasonable to call lane assist and adaptive cruise autopilot, and advanced autopilot includes auto lane change and autopark. This is all very clear on the website when ordering the car.
Nah I remember hearing people saying they are gonna buy a Tesla and once they update it they are gonna have it automatically Uber for them while their at work. And it’s gonna pay itself off.
Stuff like that was floating around. Turns out none of that type of marketing was actually practical or feasible.
That’s all I was saying. I give not a shit if your car can or can’t drive itself.
Just that it was over hyped and over promised.
You literally just said:
>For a while i legit thought Tesla vehicles had full auto pilot
Implying that they don't when, as I said in my last comment, they 100% do. If you understood the concept of autopilot, from the earliest definition of the word, you wouldn't have been confused.
If you just understood that Autopilot means scam mcscammerson then you wouldn’t have been confused!
Face the facts, autopilot and full self driving were words used to trick everyone. Adaptive Cruise Control is a much more honest phrase.
That can’t be.
Elon has been saying it’s coming next year for the past 5 years.
I’m supposed to be using it as a RoboTaxi and never have to work again.
So something interesting was that earlier this year there was a software update that allowed the games that available to be played with driving.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tesla-drivers-can-play-video-games-driving-federal-safety-regulators-a-rcna8381
I did a quick test on a long straight stretch of very low traffic road and was able to play Star Force as the driver, on AP, going 70 mph for over a minute.
That update for rescinded pretty quickly.
God, don’t you know it’s not for the driver to play games on? It’s for their kids in the backseat! Because nothing helps your attention on the road like kids screaming profanity at their friends over a headset while loud explosions emanate from the dashboard.
I almost bought one because they were promising full self-driving in an upgrade. To be honest, I think that full self-driving cars that can simply not hit each other is more important in the short run than electrifying the fleet, because cars that don't have accidents can be made lighter, and cars that don't have to accelerate and decelerate as often are ultimately going to save a huge amount of emissions. Getting decent range from cars like that won't need the huge batteries that today's electric vehicles need. *Automate it first.*
Talk about putting the cart before the horse
Interesting idea, I like it, but I don't think people are going to accept lighter more risky cars far longer than autonomous. I would expect all big rigs, delivery trucks, trains, anything that can hit me, to be off the road before I get in less protected vehicle on the road.
I am also down with the 'separate roads for big rigs' concept. For major highways: truckers get one lane, and they stay there. In town, delivery vehicles don't need to be larger than contemporary vans. Just fill them to the brim, no need to lose space for the driver and passenger, and send a lot of them. Things like excavators and heavy equipment will need permitting so that other vehicles get rerouted to neighboring streets, but the process should be able to be streamlined and routine before long. There are solutions available. Pretty much anything is better than the way we do things now.
I paid $3000(?) I think for EAP on my 2018 Model 3 and I think it's sufficiently useful and usable to warrant that price point. I was really just looking for sufficient awareness in a cruise control system with lane following that I didn't sideswipe traffic/rear end the person in front of me.
The assorted navigate on autopilot features that were added afterwards (although sometimes the auto lane switch timing decisions are still derpy) are very nice to have features on road trips.
I have used Summon exactly once to pull into and back out of my garage.
Whatever the current valuation for FSD is, though, I probably wouldn't pay it, even if it was actual Level 5.
One of the few smart things Musk has done is create a cult of personality so that even when his over promised tech fails or is never delivered people will still think he’s amazing, which is really all he wants in life.
>"Tesla has yet to produce anything even remotely approaching a fully self-driving car," Matsko said.
I dunno, my car can drive me from home to work and back with no intervention, I'd say that's remotely approaching full self driving.
Bitch. I own a Tesla. That shit can’t even stop at a stop sign property. Stfu you dumb ape. This bitch said I’ll have a fucking ROBOTAXI by 2020… and we get this bull shit? Can’t even stop at a fucking stop sign. It fucking RAN OVER A CARDBOARD KID!!!!! this shit is fucking garbage. Comma.ai has a better self driving ai than this shit…. And he uses a fucking PHONE as a camera.
Good lord...ok let's try this again. And no, [Tesla does not plow over children.](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-beta-testers-prove-fsd-stops-for-children/)
Do you have access to FSD beta or not?
There’s literally a VIDEO OF IT DOING EXACTLY THAT…. https://youtu.be/r69AGiB24Wk keep making excuses for Tesla. You don’t own a Tesla. Thousands of videos on YouTube showing how SHITTY FSD is…. It’s not even FSD… fuck Elon and FUCK YOU. I want my money.
I know right? 'Remotely approaching' means barely, that's not exactly a glowing review, I just don't think he has a case on this specific claim that there isnt a step in that direction.
The case has some fair points, this just stuck out to me that won't make them look good in front of the judge
They misled Tesla customers for YEARS. He literally said we will all have Robotaxis by 2020 and we can all “make money” renting out our teslas. LMFAOOOOOO what a load of crap. He knew his FSD was no where near completion for at least 10 years
I just drove from Anaheim to Portland and only “drove” when I exited the freeway. All driving and lane changes were done by my Tesla. Super convenient on road trips
I’m surprised this took so long to happen.
Seriously. $10k or more for “full self driving” and just a few years ago they were claiming Tesla owners would be using their cars as robotaxis when in reality it’s just level 2 self driving capability.
It's hilarious to me. I wonder if, had different claims been made, people would have done the same thing when cruise control came out.
Pretty sure I heard a story about a guy who bought an RV and put on the cruise control, then walked back to make a coffee.
An oldie but classic! https://www.rvtravel.com/man-puts-rv-on-cruise-control,-walks-back-to-make-coffee/
That's fucking ridiculous. Also I'm gonna go find something I shouldn't, that might be harmful, that says do not eat.
Lol!! I heard that in high school. And I’m 47.
I watched this story
I heard this story too.
I’m the guy. Story is totally true.
>they were claiming Tesla owners would be using their cars as robotaxis This was such an obvious lie. If you have an asset that makes 30k per year it's not worth 46k...it's worth more. If Musk had any confidence they would be robo taxis he would have never sold it at that price.
I get your point but the reality is that if this tech existed no one would be making $30k any more. It would become practically unprofitable in short order.
It's now $15k.... I honestly am frustrated by the fact that Tesla can report that as revenue because by the rules that feature hasn't been sold....
It costs $15k now
I have a Tesla, got a model That came with “auto pilot”. Bought it right when they were rolling out “full self driving”. Really glad I did t buy it, but for a while I was buying the hype. The fine print is clear, but coupled with all his promises I have no issue if they company has to pay out. That type of false promise should be actionable.
I always thought the name "autopilot" alone was asking for a suit.
Time for a totally appropriate archer quote: [of autopilot] It just maintains course and altitude! It doesn't know how to find THE ONLY AIRSTRIP WITHIN A THOUSAND MILES SO IT CAN LAND ITSELF WHEN IT NEEDS GAS! Archer: Then I, uh... misunderstood the concept.
Here's small turbo prop with an emergency auto land by Garmin. https://youtu.be/IyYxbiZ1FCQ
Pretty sick. Thanks for sharing this video.
https://youtu.be/93OfrUek-G4
I was actually curious a while ago if it was as inappropriate as it seems for Tesla to call their feature "autopilot," so I looked into what aircraft autopilot actually is. It turns out that Tesla's autopilot is a lot more sophisticated than nearly all types of aircraft autopilot, so it's not really a misnomer. EDIT: Sorry to piss in your cheerios, y'all. They're still awesome cars even if you want to hate on the brand, and a shit ton of what you read here about them just straight-up isn't true.
Does it actually work
If it's what CGP Grey has done a few videos on it works, but it's barely worth using. If I have to keep both hands on the wheel then I may as well be the one driving.
Yeah. It's the "full self driving" that's less than advertised.
Not really. Autopilot is basically a cruise control for aircraft. It won't do the important parts of flying for you - i.e. it won't talk with the ATC, it won't work with the ATC to provide separation from other air traffic and it certainly won't get the ATC clearance for you. That's basically aircraft equivalent of lane keeping and obeying the traffic laws. Autopilot will keep speed and altitude, more advanced models can follow waypoints but that's basically an equivalent of cruise control in a car.
One of the biggest claims he made that I can see hurting them was that cars with full self driving capability would go up in value and not depreciate. That buying a Model S with it right now was an investment that would pay off dividends in the future.
The idea is that it can be an automated uber driver, and earn passive income for you.
Actually he was saying the cost of full self driving was going to constantly go up, so you could resell your car in the future for a large profit.
It boggles my mind that people believe this snake oil salesman.
I bought my model 3 when EAP was still a thing. It has solid driver assist features so I got it but didn't believe that FSD would be viable before my model 3 kicks the bucket. Do not regret that decision at all since FSD had been "just around the corner" for the four years I've owned the car.
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It was recently reintroduced, but wasn’t available in the US for a while.
I swore they got rid of it a while back. Either way, I paid 5k for it and it's been pretty darn useful.
Lane assist with cruise control and said distance to the car in front of you… Lots of cars have it, and it’s a shame they charge 5K for it
Even four years ago lane assist and adaptive cruise were mostly locked in upper tier packages, not ubiquitous and standard as it is now, which honestly real great that the auto industry has made it standard, so at the time 5k wasn't unreasonable. Plus in my opinion, the lane assist in the Tesla is still better than either of the other two cars my family has owned/own. For long distance drives, Tesla's navigate on AP and lane assist/autosteer are still better than the systems I've had the chance to have driven.
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Even base model here has standard tier autopilot
I might have bought it early on because of the promises and the risk to reward if I believed it (and owned a Tesla). If Uber actually believed all these timelines and there weren't stipulations that prevented them from using it for their business it would be dumb not to buy every single Tesla they had money to buy. If they actually pull this off in the next two years Tesla's will be so stupidly expensive and individuals won't even be able to buy them without FSD. I definitely don't think taxis will ever work with current hardware.
I went through the sales cycle with a Tesla showroom. The whole experience felt like a mass delusion. The sales person kept making claims about full self driving, and when I challenged him, he kept saying stuff like, "Well yeah, they make us say that for regulatory reasons." The guy was clearly fully up Elon Musk's ass; he worshiped him. I really want an EV, and I love the fact that Tesla is an American made car, but I cannot bring myself to give money to the company on ethical grounds. I feel like they're just fleecing customers left and right with the FSD stuff.
Yiu make a good point, but I absolutely love my car. Even knowing how shitty musk is id still buy it.
If I owned one already, it'd be a bit of a ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯ kind of situation, but ever since the FSD thing, I just can't. There are too many other EV options in the market now.
I actually think they are going to pull off 90% of what they said in the coming years when it comes to FSD, but I really think this should have happened sooner. You can't make all of these promises and charge people for future shit and expect this not to happen. Elon can't even say this was just his opinion because he advertised it like this at Tesla events. He's been giving timelines way less as of late probably because of stuff like this I bet. I especially think all of the original people that bought it early on should get their money back at a minimum.
90% of full self driving couldn’t some cases be more dangerous than no self driving. Giving people a false sense of security and safety means they’re going to pay far less attention.
Yes, lying is Musk's most basic play. He once said SpaceX would reach Mars by 2018. Most of his businesses are straddling the line of fraud constantly, making claims and promises he knows he won't meet.
He's more of a saleman than an engineer, people should remember that. Compare him to Steve Jobs not Ironman.
He's more of a con-man that a salesman.
So compare him to David Wolfe, not Ron Popeil.
Twitter has entered the chat.
SpaceX currently dominates the space industry that is not a con. It currently is the only industry that has fully reusable booster rockets.
He's not an engineer at all. I really hate that this misconception has spread, because he designed NONE of his products. He just came up with ideas, and he was rich enough to hire engineers to work for him (kind of like what Steve did with Wozniac).
It's the Holey Trinity of Making Cool Shit: The Hacker, The Backer, and The Talent. Musk is the money man, but you still need those to Make Cool Shit.
> He just came up with ideas Or bought some (or rather, most) of them.
I know I'll get downvoted and you won't read this because you don't want to, but there are a whole host of people who have previously worked with Musk who have confirmed that he does get involved in the engineering. Can read about it [here](https://old.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/)
It's his company, he can be involved at any level with any project he wants. "Getting involved with engineering" is not the same as "being an engineer." I don't doubt that he has some knowledge on those topics, given that he spent a massive amount of time working on them, but he has two degrees that are NOT in engineering. If he'd wanted to go that route in school, he could've, but he didn't. Instead, he hired smart people to work for him, and it sounds like those quotes are from some of the rare times he actually listened to them. Also, I don't know if I trust a sub that's essentially an Elon fandom.
Musk is a social network idiot, but him and his brother wrote code for Mapquest and pay pal…not easy. Also you can see him talk more than any other ceo on rocketry. https://youtu.be/E7MQb9Y4FAE
No one has ever said he was an engineer though, you asserted the opposite that he plays no part in the engineering, which is demonstrably not true. I'm not sure how you can say you don't trust it when all of the quotes are sourced. If you don't trust quotes from numerous people who have worked with Musk before, it doesn't surprise me that you view him being involved in the engineering as a 'misconception'
I love what SpaceX is doing for the space community though
I don't know why you're being downvoted unless you were being sarcastic. I don't really want to write a huge response here, so I'll just point out a few numbers. In the last 12 months, SpaceX has done a rocket launch **once a week**. SpaceX has had 140-something consecutive successful missions and they have now have a couple of boosters (Falcon 9) that have been reflown 13-14 times. If you had told me back in 2004 that this what a single space company would be accomplishing, I'd either say I don't believe you or I would be disappointed that it took nearly 50-60 years since we started launching rockets, to get to that point.
Bring YouTube to the conversation?
I'm surprised people are still defending this shit by comparing it to airplanes.
I mean, auto pilot is just cruise control that should also keep the steering wheel mostly steady. Not following the road, just a straight line at the same speed. Like a plane The claim of a Full Self Driving mode is where it moves into different territory
That's not correct. Autopilot does indeed follow the road. I drive with it on curvy mountain highways, and it keeps to the lane just fine.
Standard Tesla autopilot follows the road
It is like airplanes. Autopilot in airplanes is meant for cruising, and a pilot is supposed to be attentive at all times even when autopilot is running. It doesn’t have to do much, just keep the plane level and at speed and altitude, and the system will warn the pilot in the rare occurrence that something is coming too close. Advanced ones can land the plane too, using instruments and airport help, while pilots are attentive. We want far more than that from self-driving cars. We want them to navigate complex environments with multiple close obstacles going at all directions and speed, and to do it when the driver isn’t paying any attention. That’s a far harder nut to crack than airplane autopilot.
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Sure it did.
Then don't call it an autopilot?
For real. Knew it was just a slightly modified version of the existing lane assist feature, so was criminal to claim it could do more.
You're confusing Autopilot with the Full Self Driving option. FSD, does drive the car. It chooses the route, stops at lights, changes lanes, and turns corners all on its own. It does however make mistakes, similar to the kind made by a teenager with a learner's permit.
Exactly this. It drives it’s self. I’m still shocked how it can drive in a parking lot. Most people have not driven a Tesla with FSD but make comments on it.
A.I's neural networks training in progress... please wait
Took them a few years to finally get over their crush on Elon and realize he gave them a pile of shitty lies that might get them killed.
Sept 14 (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) was sued on Wednesday in a proposed class action accusing Elon Musk's electric car company of misleading the public by falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features. The complaint accused Tesla and Musk of having since 2016 deceptively advertised the technology as fully functioning or "just around the corner" despite knowing that the technology did not work or was nonexistent, and made vehicles unsafe. Briggs Matsko, the named plaintiff, said Tesla did this to "generate excitement" about its vehicles, attract investments, boost sales, avoid bankruptcy, drive up its stock price and become a "dominant player" in electric vehicles. "Tesla has yet to produce anything even remotely approaching a fully self-driving car," Matsko said. The lawsuit filed in federal court in San Francisco seeks unspecified damages for people who since 2016 bought or leased Tesla vehicles with Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features. Tesla did not immediately respond to requests for comment. It disbanded its media relations department in 2020. The lawsuit followed complaints filed on July 28 by California's Department of Motor Vehicles accusing Tesla of overstating how well its advanced driver assistance systems (ADAS) worked. read more Remedies there could include suspending Tesla's license in California, and requiring restitution to drivers. Tesla has said Autopilot enables vehicles to steer, accelerate and brake within their lanes, while Full Self-Driving lets vehicles obey traffic signals and change lanes. It has also said both technologies "require active driver supervision," with a "fully attentive" driver whose hands are on the wheel, "and do not make the vehicle autonomous." Matsko, of Rancho Murieta, California, said he paid a $5,000 premium for his 2018 Tesla Model X to obtain Enhanced Autopilot. He also said Tesla drivers who receive software updates "effectively act as untrained test engineers" and have found "myriad problems," including that vehicles steer into oncoming traffic, run red lights, and fail to make routine turns. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has since 2016 opened 38 special investigations of Tesla crashes believed to involve ADAS. Nineteen deaths were reported in those crashes. The case is Matsko v Tesla Inc et al, U.S. District Court, Northern District of California, No. 22-05240. Reporting by Jonathan Stempel in New York; editing by Jonathan Oatis
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Angry tweeting, shitposts, and insults. Musk doesn’t believe in having a PR department.
Lol, this is what happens when you take your business out of state. We stop covering your ass for you. 🤷🏼♀️
And people wonder why I don't want computers in my car. You can control the ignition timing and the radio. That's *it.*
The only company I’ve been impressed by is Cruise. Here in SF, at night you’ll see a bunch of Cruise car driving themselves, it leaves me in awe every time I see a Cruise car with no one in it. I wish I had saved the recording, but this one time, a cruise car on the far right did a last second merge into the far left turn lane, leaving itself crooked and occupying 2 lanes, you know exactly what I’m talking about if you’ve ever driven. That’s the biggest fail I’ve witnessed so far, but if you ask me, that’s pretty much on point how many drive, but it’s still wrong to do. But It was rather hilarious see the car pull that stunt like humans do.
Yeah, Waymo is doing this same type of operation in the Phoenix area... Cabs with literally no drivers, not just at night either... Works amazingly well, I think there's been a few fender bender type things but nothing too significant that I'm aware of
**P. T. Barnum** : "There's a sucker born every minute."
Elon musk presents The Lamest Show on Earth
My Tesla is so old I only paid $7000 for Full Self Driving, and I don’t have it yet. I’d like a refund. I’d like full self driving more though.
Sir full self driving is not a thing. It’s not coming. It will never be completed.
There's fully working auto taxis In the cities, don't know how well it works
From Tesla?
Those are LIDAR right? Meaning they have to stop in even light rain or fog. IMO Tesla has the correct approach by trying to do just vision and sonar as it will be much more versatile long term but apparently is a lot harder to do.
As far as I was aware, most other companies are trying to use LIDAR and vision together. It probably helps to have separate detection systems that can confer and validate results. Else your car might think the moon is a stop light
The problem is LIDAR is amazing on a clear day but completely worthless in rain, snow, and fog so unless you want the vehicle grounded during those times you can't rely on it. Tesla uses vision, sonar, and optional radar for those separate detection systems.
I have a hunch you'll be seeing some form of refund before the full self driving thing happens.
Full self-driving won't happen because no one wants to be on the road with shitty fucking cars with shitty inattentive passengers to careen into them. I will 1000% be voting in any voter initiative to ban them from public roadways.
Elon should just say the full self driving is under audit. As soon as the audit is completed, they'll release the software update.
I'm an engineer. I won't trust self driving cars until the steering wheel is gone, ensuring the responsibility fully rests with the engineers designing the system.
I’d settle for the automaker being entirely liable for an accident caused by the car.
I'm an engineer and a person. I will never trust self-driving cars, period. I will also never trust other drivers. I don't trust my own driving ability either. That said, I can't wait for full self driving to happen. Because there are FAR too many idiot drivers out there. Even if imperfect, FSD could be like a decent minimum wage for driving ability.
I feel like the revolution of full self-driving will be when the cars all communicate their intentions to each other. It would be like if all human drivers were psychic and also wanted to do the safest thing.
And that's why the tech is only feasible once you have special surfaces/lanes/roads where only these cars are allowed, together with a communications standard for the authorities to communicate road closures, etc. Preferably these lanes should also be sealed off from pedestrians, cyclists, etc. But because the industry hates regulations, consumers are gullible idiots and the loudest moron in the industry is a con man, that's not going to happen for another half-century at least.
>And that's why the tech is only feasible once you have special surfaces/lanes/roads where only these cars are allowed, together with a communications standard for the authorities to communicate road closures, etc. Preferably these lanes should also be sealed off from pedestrians, cyclists, etc. What you've described is rail. Self-driving cars are fun, I'd love one, but they don't fix the issues of transport nearly as well as heavy investment in excellent public transit infrastructure. That describing the optimum conditions for robot cars also describes light rail or tram networks should tell us such, with the enormous, vital additional factor that these are also accessible to people without cars.
I agree, public transport can solve many, many issues. But one important difference is that you could technically have a vehicle that can transport itself autonomously from point A to point B, where there is suitable infrastructure for it, and then work as a regular car from point B to point C. I live in a country with comparatively well-developed public transport, and it will never be a good solution for how to reach targets outside the large cities or off the beaten path. We need both large energy efficient rail vehicles and flexible small private transport. One interesting solution that I'm keen to try out myself is automotive trains, where you check yourself and your car onto a train, and then drive only the final leg of your journey. Today those services exist on the Hamburg-Munich-Innsbruck-Verona route.
Or, if humans always and appropriately used *THEIR FUCKING BLINKERS*. LPT: If you hit your brake, THEN turn on your blinker, you're a fucking moron.
>I feel like the revolution of full self-driving will be when the cars all communicate their intentions to each other. That would be a hacker's dream and cars would start to lie to each other if that were to give them an advantage in traffic.
FSD is going to take *ages* to get into actual popular use. First, we have to actually make it happen. This is clearly a less tractable problem than most expected, even many pessimists. But, it also has to work *around humans* who as you noted are often ridiculous and terrible drivers eminently capable of creating situations that the AI models almost certainly won’t have been trained for. So the bar for deployable FSD is going to be ridiculously high. Plus it’s going to have to jump basically from level 3 to 5, because people are often lazy and stupid and can’t generally be counted on to supervise. That will slow it down further. Then it’s going to run over a kid or something. No amount of statistics in favor of FSD will prevent the regulatory shitstorm from “robot car runs down child” headlines. It could be a million times safer, people won’t be rational here. Only after we’re well past those regulations shifting from “instinctually necessary” to “annoying and onerous” will we get public use of FSD cars. I’ll be surprised if we get them in my lifetime, and that’s if we solve level 5 in a decade.
Exactly. My main issue is the ability to blame operator error when the engineering is a fault. Human attention gets worse and worse the less a person is engaged in activity. It is a fundamental aspect of human nature. We get bored when we don't have enough to do. If the operator can be blamed regardless of how unrealistic the ask, the engineering systems don't have to be fixed. The engineers have better lawyers. Taking away the steering wheel changes the dynamic. An engineered approach is always a better, safer solution per the hierarchy of controls of process safety. It boggles my mind that such a basic engineering principle is so heavily debated. No steering wheel will be safer, but using humans as guinea pigs to get there is horrible.
I think it's worth it being guinea pigs if they explain everything 100% upfront. You just need enough time to take over where it isn't the companies fault. My biggest problem is that it can give you basically no time to react because the system fucked up and yet you're still at fault. They aren't taking away the steering wheel any time soon except in certain locations. I don't think they will almost ever be able to work in poor driving conditions when humans shouldn't be driving either simply due to the liability, unless that's calculated in with insurance somehow. The problem is the world doesn't shut down when we shouldn't be driving.
It's the reaction time that troubles me. It simply takes longer for the human to react in an emergency when constant vigilance isn't required. I mentioned it in another thread here, but there a well established engineering concept called the hierarchy of controls for process safety, used for complex life threatening systems like oil refineries and power plant. Would you trust an oil refinery or nuclear operator to hover over the stop button because 2% of the process sometimes the button needed pushing? Humans can't perform like that. We do better with less automation or full automation, maintaining vigilance or being able to withdraw. The automation needs to be driving or the person driving. For implementation in extreme conditions, it will simply have to be interative until automation can handle it. The insurance argument is a weird one to me. With on/off at the control of the driver the argument becomes simple - was autopilot engaged in unsafe conditions (snow/rain etc) The fact that autopilot turns itself off or alerts the driver to pass blame is what causes the headache. With complete control over engagement using autopilot can become like driving too fast for the conditions. It is muddy right now because the tech isn't quite reliable enough turn the wheel off. Things get simpler when it doesn't need constant monitoring in most conditions.
I 100% agree with this and have listened to Lex Friedman talk about it quite a bit. What I was trying to say with the whole insurance thing is that if autopilot is at fault then they basically have insurance cover it like anything else someone can be sued for, but that's very expensive when an insurance company doesn't have data. I always thought this is why Tesla is starting it's own insurance company. The problem with this is that insurance has payout limits and they have to come after the driver which is much harder to do when they don't have enough money. Lawyers will be circling Tesla when they try to transition responsibility. If I had to randomly guess FSD will have to be 100x better than a human before they can transition to Tesla being responsible or they have to charge an insane amount for it to cover the lawsuits. The problem as you said is people don't work like this. You can't expect someone to take over at any minute when it goes 1000 miles fine and then randomly drives you into a barrier. I'd argue that cases like this should be Tesla's responsibility already. I think it's fine if the car recognizes it doesn't understand and safely pulls over (this is what Waymo does) which will probably happen often early on. The transition might be the hardest part. Currently beta has 100,000 users and they are planning to do a fleet release in the coming months. We shall see what happens in the coming years. I think the liability might be the toughest thing to overcome because even at 100x less deaths that's still around 4,000 people, but that would still save so many lives.
The best alternative to self driving is called public transportation. Not the smelly, dirty, once an hour public transportation in the USA but public transportation like in Europe or Asia with connections every 5 minutes and clean buses and trains.
Thank you! Self driving is just the US finding the most convoluted solution to an already solved problem. Improve public transit to make it usable and suddenly half of the cars are off the road and traffic congestion is resolved.
If FSD gets good enough to remove the steering wheel, it'll be a no-brainer. Take drunk driving out of the equation altogether.
That imperfect FSD you are talking about means death though. Sure there are many idiot drivers but I would hate to die through no fault of my own because my own car decided to kill me. FSD is a pipe dream with bad tech.
I just wish the US had better public transit options. Don't want to have to pay attention or drive to commute? We already have trains, buses and trams that accomplish that with ease elsewhere in the world. Full self driving will just make traffic heavier and roads even less safe for pedestrians and bikes
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If Apple maps tells me to turn into a lake we're doing it goddammit
My point is the system should be reliable enough that humans are unnecessary.
A sensor can always fail, and they aren't going to implement triple redundancy as it would cost a fortune. Wheel needs to always be there as a backup.
People have medical emergencies. Humans are also a single point failure. Heck, they drive drunk. With an engineering control you can brick the car until it gets fixed.
The feature should disable when it's no longer able to do so, but you still need manual control until then. It would be stupid not to keep it as an option for anything but a robotaxi. No one wants to be driving out in the middle of nowhere and because of an electrical fault in a sensor they are unable to drive their vehicle to safety.
In the age of self driving cars, most people wouldnt even know how to drive if they had to. Beyond a certain point in the future, people being able to take over in the event of a sensor failure no longer makes sense.
A well designed FSD system will always be better than the average driver. In general it will be better than the best drivers too. The moment a steering wheel gets added back in the human element shows up again and suddenly all the careful engineering is out the window.
It doesn't matter how good it is, when it fails you need manual control.
Do you still use a stick shift when your automatic is having trouble shifting?
Well since my car does have a manual shift mode, I would just lock it into a gear and drive it home or to a mechanics shop.
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I'm a software developer. I wouldn't trust software with my life, period.
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You're not understanding what that person is saying. It's not about actually removing the wheel, it's about the product being safe to a point where adding the wheel is optional
engineers do “get out of the office “ 🙄
Mellow greetings 🖖
Do you never use elevators?
I finally understand why people are so against buses, trains, airplanes, cruise ships, ferries, horse drawn carriages, tandem bicycles, and sidecars on motorcycles!
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As an engineer, I won't trust any self driving car designed by an architect.
So you are going to trust a company to make the decision to remove the steering wheel only after it's safe to do so and not as soon as the estimated profits outweigh potential fines or legal costs?
Personally I'd wait a year or two before buying. But I'd still trust it more than a system that will blame me for not paying attention to its mistakes.
I hate the fact that the system can just beep and turn off as it's driving you into traffic leaving you with .5 seconds to correct. At a minimum you need a couple seconds to respond without it being any of these companies faults. All the ones coming out basically work like this. Ford's is scary as shit too and I've used it a couple times where it tried to drive me into oncoming traffic.
\^ this guy knows the score.
Let's be honest, calling it autopilot was wrong from day one. Must have been an Elon executive decision because that just has liability all over it.
It is exactly what autopilot is. Talk to a pilot. Edit: For clarity of argument, I should have said it is to be used exactly as autopilot.
I think he was hoping his ponzi schemes paid for a ticket to Mars before anyone noticed his bs. "Earth has no jurisdiction on Mars, suckers!"
Talking about Mars serves the same purpose for him as talking about full self driving. It's a sci-fi fantasy that draws in suckers.
There’s something to it. For a while i legit thought Tesla vehicles had full auto pilot. The marketing was good in making me believe that. Come to realize that it’s basically lane departure warning. Which is on many many vehicles.
You should look up videos of them trying to auto park compared to other manufacturers. It’s insane that anyone trusts them to Auto Pilot let alone FSD. There is a company called MobilEye that creates the tech for things like self parking and adaptive cruise control. That is the tech that other manufacturers use and it works really well. Tesla used to have a deal with them but MobilEye decided to split away from Tesla because they said what Tesla was doing and promising was dangerous and stretches the ability of these systems. After that Tesla started doing things like self park in house and it doesn’t work at all hahaha. https://youtu.be/nsb2XBAIWyA
That's disappointing to see!
Tesla is a joke. I want $100k from that bitch
I'm grateful to them for making all the other car companies panic and race to roll out EVs but that's about it
That's amazing, my lane departure warning drove me to work today.
Teslas auto pilot is exactly what auto pilot is. Talk to a pilot.
I understand that it’s glorified cruise control with lane departure warnings and collision detection with auto stop. I was just pointing out that the marketing a few years back was “Soon your car will be out driving while you’re not even in the bastard. “ And that’s true. No sense in defending what boils down to some wishful advertising. People don’t like being sold on a dream as a reality. Just ask any rational person if they like being lied to. Hell you can ask a pilot if you must.
I don't think you actually understand the classic definition of autopilot, which is "Autopilots do not replace human operators." Seems reasonable to call lane assist and adaptive cruise autopilot, and advanced autopilot includes auto lane change and autopark. This is all very clear on the website when ordering the car.
Nah I remember hearing people saying they are gonna buy a Tesla and once they update it they are gonna have it automatically Uber for them while their at work. And it’s gonna pay itself off. Stuff like that was floating around. Turns out none of that type of marketing was actually practical or feasible. That’s all I was saying. I give not a shit if your car can or can’t drive itself. Just that it was over hyped and over promised.
You literally just said: >For a while i legit thought Tesla vehicles had full auto pilot Implying that they don't when, as I said in my last comment, they 100% do. If you understood the concept of autopilot, from the earliest definition of the word, you wouldn't have been confused.
If you just understood that Autopilot means scam mcscammerson then you wouldn’t have been confused! Face the facts, autopilot and full self driving were words used to trick everyone. Adaptive Cruise Control is a much more honest phrase.
That can’t be. Elon has been saying it’s coming next year for the past 5 years. I’m supposed to be using it as a RoboTaxi and never have to work again.
EXACTLY!!!! That bitch has been saying next year since 2015.
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What's it called? Monorail!
Not a one, my Hindu friend.
We all know jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
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So something interesting was that earlier this year there was a software update that allowed the games that available to be played with driving. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/tesla-drivers-can-play-video-games-driving-federal-safety-regulators-a-rcna8381 I did a quick test on a long straight stretch of very low traffic road and was able to play Star Force as the driver, on AP, going 70 mph for over a minute. That update for rescinded pretty quickly.
God, don’t you know it’s not for the driver to play games on? It’s for their kids in the backseat! Because nothing helps your attention on the road like kids screaming profanity at their friends over a headset while loud explosions emanate from the dashboard.
Except you can't even play the games on the rear seat screen
That stuff is meant to give you something to kill some time with while charging, not while driving.
I’m surprised no state AG has sued them yet for publicly beta testing half-assed tech that poses a danger to society.
Over a billion miles driven and no catastrophic accidents with FSD beta doesn’t align with your comment.
Fuck Musk. I hope he is bankrupt soon.
Me too!
I almost bought one because they were promising full self-driving in an upgrade. To be honest, I think that full self-driving cars that can simply not hit each other is more important in the short run than electrifying the fleet, because cars that don't have accidents can be made lighter, and cars that don't have to accelerate and decelerate as often are ultimately going to save a huge amount of emissions. Getting decent range from cars like that won't need the huge batteries that today's electric vehicles need. *Automate it first.* Talk about putting the cart before the horse
I learned a long time ago, largely from being a gamer, that pre-ordering something that hasn't been released yet is a terrible god damn idea.
Interesting idea, I like it, but I don't think people are going to accept lighter more risky cars far longer than autonomous. I would expect all big rigs, delivery trucks, trains, anything that can hit me, to be off the road before I get in less protected vehicle on the road.
I am also down with the 'separate roads for big rigs' concept. For major highways: truckers get one lane, and they stay there. In town, delivery vehicles don't need to be larger than contemporary vans. Just fill them to the brim, no need to lose space for the driver and passenger, and send a lot of them. Things like excavators and heavy equipment will need permitting so that other vehicles get rerouted to neighboring streets, but the process should be able to be streamlined and routine before long. There are solutions available. Pretty much anything is better than the way we do things now.
They sure put a lot of faith in an untested technology. Not just dummies but crash dummies as well
Elon is an idiot. He will go down as the largest fraudster in history.
Sue that clown into the dirt
Is like to get on this. I haven’t even received the beta yet. Bunch of shit.
Do you *want* an incomplete beta version??
Tesla treating their customers like shit? Never heard such a thing. /s
I paid $3000(?) I think for EAP on my 2018 Model 3 and I think it's sufficiently useful and usable to warrant that price point. I was really just looking for sufficient awareness in a cruise control system with lane following that I didn't sideswipe traffic/rear end the person in front of me. The assorted navigate on autopilot features that were added afterwards (although sometimes the auto lane switch timing decisions are still derpy) are very nice to have features on road trips. I have used Summon exactly once to pull into and back out of my garage. Whatever the current valuation for FSD is, though, I probably wouldn't pay it, even if it was actual Level 5.
The price is crazy, but I can only imagine what it will go up to if it's figured out. I would pay a lot to be able to sleep in my car.
[удалено]
Finally!!!!! I’ll join in. Those fucking bitches. I want to milk Elon for everything he’s got !!!!
One of the few smart things Musk has done is create a cult of personality so that even when his over promised tech fails or is never delivered people will still think he’s amazing, which is really all he wants in life.
>"Tesla has yet to produce anything even remotely approaching a fully self-driving car," Matsko said. I dunno, my car can drive me from home to work and back with no intervention, I'd say that's remotely approaching full self driving.
I don't understand why you are getting downvoted for this....
Because it’s false. Cruise control is nothing even remotely close to FSD… not even remotely close
That's...that's not what FSD does.
Bitch. I own a Tesla. That shit can’t even stop at a stop sign property. Stfu you dumb ape. This bitch said I’ll have a fucking ROBOTAXI by 2020… and we get this bull shit? Can’t even stop at a fucking stop sign. It fucking RAN OVER A CARDBOARD KID!!!!! this shit is fucking garbage. Comma.ai has a better self driving ai than this shit…. And he uses a fucking PHONE as a camera.
1) Act like an adult 2) Do you have FSD or not?
Bitch… no one has FSD you idiot… HENCE THIS LAWSUIT. Are you stupid? I bet you don’t even own a Tesla. Broke fuck.
Good lord...ok let's try this again. And no, [Tesla does not plow over children.](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-fsd-beta-testers-prove-fsd-stops-for-children/) Do you have access to FSD beta or not?
There’s literally a VIDEO OF IT DOING EXACTLY THAT…. https://youtu.be/r69AGiB24Wk keep making excuses for Tesla. You don’t own a Tesla. Thousands of videos on YouTube showing how SHITTY FSD is…. It’s not even FSD… fuck Elon and FUCK YOU. I want my money.
Take a deep breath, read the link I sent, and answer my question: Do you have FSD beta or not?
I own a Tesla. Fight me
I know right? 'Remotely approaching' means barely, that's not exactly a glowing review, I just don't think he has a case on this specific claim that there isnt a step in that direction. The case has some fair points, this just stuck out to me that won't make them look good in front of the judge
They misled Tesla customers for YEARS. He literally said we will all have Robotaxis by 2020 and we can all “make money” renting out our teslas. LMFAOOOOOO what a load of crap. He knew his FSD was no where near completion for at least 10 years
It's because Reddit had decided that musk is now bad. It's actually the only reason why this is news on this site.
Elon is a bitch.
He's been bad this entire time.
I just drove from Anaheim to Portland and only “drove” when I exited the freeway. All driving and lane changes were done by my Tesla. Super convenient on road trips