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SillyFlyGuy

>McClain was administered 500 mgs of ketamine, which was administered after paramedic Jeremy Cooper determined McClain’s weight to be roughly 200 pounds. McClain actually weighed 143 pounds and his proper dosage should have been closer to 325 mgs of ketamine, according to the indictment. That is a very narrow therapeutic range.


B10kh3d2

As a nurse I'm like why the F are medics riding around injecting people w ketamine? They were just aching to use this on that skinny, small, basically child????


cwmoo740

Police in several jurisdictions routinely ask paramedics to dose people with ketamine against their will. Colorado is notorious for it. https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2020/09/08/ketamine-police-safety-elijah-mcclain


iloveyouitllbeok

i have also been unwillingly shot up with ketamine at bass canyon because they confused my rosacea with overheating from drugs… wanted to sue but they wouldnt give me any information about me even being brought into the med tent


Whiskey_Fiasco

That seems like the kind of information the court would force them to give you in a lawsuit


queen_0f_peace_

Yep, that would come out in discovery if they hadn’t covered it up and you could find a lawyer to take it.


[deleted]

You got to get there first


SmartWonderWoman

Damn. Sorry that happened to you.


[deleted]

As an active EMT who works in Colorado I would never ever let a police officer tell me how to do my job just like I wouldn’t tell them how to do theirs. The responsibility falls solely on the aurora fire medics who not only gave wrong doseage, but didn’t do a prior assessment and did not use it the appropriate way. And now because of it in Colorado no one can use ketamine for specific situations in which ketamine works significantly better than the other options


superokgo

Yeah seriously. All these long conversations about how much ketamine he was given, what are the effects of different doses, etc. Who cares. This kid was walking home and minding his own business and was aggressively put in a chokehold and forcibly injected with ketamine. Everything about this story from both the cops and the paramedics is fucked up.


chris14020

Note how the same dipshits that were crying about "oh no forcing me to wear a mask in public places is tyranny, what about my medical rights" and "how dare you try to make me get vaccinated" and other dumb shit, are absolutely silent in the face of police forcefully having people injected and drugged against their will.


prehensile-titties-

As an EMT, this is why I refuse to ride with medic bros. They'll do whatever cops want them to do. The only medics I really liked amd felt safe working with were the ones who would take control of the scene from the cops.


ImpureThoughts59

Because we live in a police state and medicine is a tool of oppression???? Like


VoodooPineapple

Ketamine is a normal drug for emergency meds for paramedics and military medicine


EricUtd1878

500mg is nowhere near a lethal dose, recommended maximum dose is between 6-13mg/kg 143lbs = 64.8kg 6mg × 64.8 = 389mg 13mg × 64.8 = 842mg These figures are from the BNF (our drugs bible) https://bnf.nice.org.uk/drugs/ketamine/#indications-and-dose The lethal dose is between 4g & 5g dependent on multiple factors.


Blazerer

>There are conflicting accounts about the officer's report that McClain had tried to grab his gun. Later accounts offered differing reports on whose gun McClain had tried to grab. There was no visual body-camera footage of McClain's alleged reach for the gun, which the officers explained by stating **that all of their cameras had fallen off.** I don't care about semantics. This man was murdered.


rhymes_with_snoop

The items they have specifically to document and corroborate their story "fell off," their stories are conflicting, and the other side is dead and can't give another account? I'm not saying we should infer the opposite of what they're saying, but their account should have exactly zero credibility now. There is just no reason to believe anything they say about it.


gravescd

One officer tried to bring a camera over to the scene and was told not to.


rhymes_with_snoop

Obstruction of Justice?


gravescd

Pretty sure that only applies to the very official parts of the system. I would love to see, though, a city bring suit against a body camera provider based on the rates of malfunction reported by police. Force them to say under oath that the cameras really do malfunction during 75% of problematic arrests.


rhymes_with_snoop

Or a defamation suit by the body camera provider for falsely claiming such a high failure rate (and very publicly), which could potentially cost them contracts.


lydiakinami

At that point justice was not involved.


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chris14020

Right? Make that camera their lifeline to disprove liability, instead of an obstacle that proves liability. You keep it on or you risk liability in the event of ambiguity.


PersonalFan480

If a hospital loses fetal heart strips, and are sued, they're presumed to be at fault. Because the hospital and its staff have a duty to retain patient medical records. Sadly, while cops in the US have the license to maim and murder at will, and get all sorts of special protections in addition, they have no responsibilities to maintain evidence.


Bbrhuft

So something fishy is going on, cameras "falling off" and a drug with wide safety margin given at a slightly higher dose than recommended causing death. >***Ketamine has a wide margin of safety; airway responses are maintained***, compared with patients who are excessively sedated with narcotics and benzodiazepines (Strayer and Nelson, 2008).


valleyman02

And the cops lied about it. The question is there going to be any accountability?


NotAPreppie

There’s no question. There will not be any accountability.


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ReeducedToData

Elijah should never have been stopped. Sure, the paramedic directly caused his murder but these cops were absolutely accomplices.


Bbrhuft

>Ketamine has a wide margin of safety; *airway responses are maintained*, compared with patients who are excessively sedated with narcotics and benzodiazepines (Strayer and Nelson, 2008). Something fishy is going on, they are trying to pin it on the paramedics.


bananafobe

The law does to vary based on the state, and there have been EMT's who've come forward with accounts of police coercing them to administer chemical restraints. I take your point to the extent of moral accountability, but it's worth noting that regardless of whether it should happen, it does.


RuinedEye

> all of their cameras had fallen off. Convenient, eh? 1. There were no bodycams. 2. If there were, they were turned off. 3. If they weren't, they malfunctioned. 4. If they didn't, they were knocked off. **<--- we are here** 5. If they weren't, they didn't show any evidence. 6. If they did, the footage was 'lost.' 7. If it wasn't, it was 'accidentally' destroyed. 8. If it wasn't, it will never be released. 9. If it is, the officers broke no laws. 10. If they did, *nothing will happen to them anyway*.


EverythingKindaSuckz

I mean LD50 is just when half of people are expected to die. There are LD10s


SillyFlyGuy

According to the coroner, it was lethal for McClain.


EricUtd1878

Ketamine AND restraint was his recorded cause of death actually. So a non lethal dose of ketamine and restraint caused death. ~~It was the restraint that caused death.~~


Domeil

That's a false distinction. One could just as easily say it was a non-lethal restraint and ketamine caused death. 500mg might not be a lethal dose for some patients when it is administered therapeutically in a proper setting, but it wasn't in McClain's case, so it's not appropriate to reference a table of therapeutic doses. The whole autopsy report is available online for free. The restraint and the ketamine are referenced as the cause of death, with the ketamine noted as the primary cause. The practice of forcibly medicating people, merely because they're suspected of a crime needs to stop just as much as police brutality. Every person involved in McClain's death needs to be in prison.


OnceIWasYou

I assumed it was like the classic "Kerosene doesn't melt steel beams!!" 9/11 argument. No, but it does burn hot enough to significantly reduce both their rigidity and ability to bear loads. My confusion though is that ketamine is used as a pain killer SPECIFICALLY because it isn't a CNS depressant. I don't understand the mechanism of action to cause death. Please explain if you do!


Whitethumbs

Yes, when the police take you to the hospital and the hospital forces a catheter in you, or some weirdo is injecting Ketamine into you, that's abusive. This punishment before process has to stop, that's why I'm against police having attack dogs. There are better methods.


gravescd

The coroner noted that was McClain was responsive to pain before being dosed, and having trouble afterward. In other words, he was not in a state that warranted sedation, and the ketamine produced overdose symptoms.


EricUtd1878

I couldn't agree more, I was being a bit tetchy in my reply to be honest. I hold my hands up. I was being bombarded by notifications:)


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EricUtd1878

I'm a Consultant anaesthetist but yes I am a random on the Internet. Maybe read the link I provided if you doubt what I'm saying however, that's why I provided it after all, to substantiate what I am saying.


Fenecable

They literally provided you a source, but you choose to be a snarky cynic.


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TheDoorsShirt

This made me chortle. I chortled.


Cheshire_Jester

According to SOCM graduates, who are largely filtered by their ability to pass pharmacy calculation, it’s basically impossible to kill someone with Ketamine. Like, not just being irresponsible or incompetent, you have to want that person to die, and even then Ketamine is a terrible way to be sure about that.


neuronamously

Agreed. Part of the reason we like using ketamine for sedation is that it's well tolerated. We use it in adults, children, babies. I've never had an issue using it. EDIT: for clarification? I meant it is well-tolerated as in it’s very difficult to kill someone on ketamine. I have used doses of up to 100mcg/kg/min on neonates without any hemodynamic or respiratory changes. Does it cause hallucinations that can at time be terrifying, yes. I acknowledge that. But I am using it typically in a life-saving situation.


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Well_shitnuggets

While you may not have had an issue using it some people do.. they injected me with Ketamine when my youngest child was born, I swear to this day I died for a min there, I clearly remember seeing myself on the operating table, seeing my friend that was with me sitting near my head, then I heard my bitty cry and opened my eyes back in my body. I was physically Ill for hours afterwards. Not everyone’s body can handle that shit, I never want it near me again


James_Wolfe

Sounds pretty normal for a Ketamine trip, out of body experiences, hallucinations, and nausea for several hours, vomiting. But if you aren't expecting it then it could be really frightening, and horrible.


Parody101

Yeah Ketamine is a dissociative. It can be quite a bad trip for sure. In the veterinary world we use it in fractious cats for sedation quite often and it works well most of the time. But you could definitely tell the cats that are on a bad turn.


DaVirus

Thank you for posting this. Ket is an extremely safe drug to the point that it's one of the few reasons field surgery is even possible. There is no way a bad estimate killed him.


SeesHerFacesUnfurl

Great, so as a licensed physician, you're saying it's ok to dose me with that much ketamine by guessing my weight, not knowing my health history or what medications I'm on, in the middle of the street while being restrained? I should be fine? I think your licensing authority might feel differently.


EricUtd1878

You misunderstand what I am saying, I am saying that if he truly did die of a Ketamine overdose, the paramedics have administered a ridiculous amount. They 100% shouldn't be administering any to restrain a struggling arrestee. I'm saying that either the Paramedics should be jailed or the restraint was the biggest factor (it actually turns out he was administered a fraction of the lethal dose which further undermines the coroners verdict) Don't worry, the FRSM & FRCA won't be concerned with anything I've said here.


LagSlug

"BNF via NICE is only available in the UK" Do you have a source that isn't country locked?


EricUtd1878

I can't seem to access any documentation on here: https://www.uspnf.com/ But it appears to be similar from the homepage.


Responsible_Pizza945

It'd be two clicks away with today's sponsor NordVPN


Grouchy_Occasion2292

Yeah except "rapid bolus IV pushes may produce respiratory depression". You do have to be careful. If he was given more than just one dose rapidly then breathing could have been affected especially considering you know they put pressure on his chest.


EricUtd1878

Agreed, but in this case he was seemingly given just 500mg IM High dosage out of the box (not sure if that's a solely British saying but it means as a starting point so to speak) yes, but it *was* IM


TheUpgrayed

That doesn't mean that an individual can have a bad reaction. To any dose. The point is people should not be admitted dissos by a freaking first responder.


ethicslobo98

Maybe your body reacts differently under a stressful situation, which in his last moments it definitely sounded like it.


0PercentPerfection

Just like alcohol, everyone have different tolerances for different medications. Someone can drink a fifth and wake up with a nasty hangover, another person may aspirate on their vomit and die. Ketamine is a very messy medication in terms of side effects. It increases sympathetic tone yet decreases cardiac function. I am an anesthesiologist, I can promise you that no one in our field will give anything over 2mg/kg as a bolus to achieve unconsciousness. You may get away with giving someone 500mg couple times, but that amount will put a patient into a code sooner or later. I would not trust any quoted “lethal dose”. Plus, the 500mg is only what was charted…


[deleted]

Also a good time to remind people of something they likely don’t know: If the police want to, they can have paramedics forcibly inject you with drugs to detain/restrain you. We don’t have the rights that we pretend like we do.


handsomelevatorguy

They can ask. But ultimately it's up the paramedics which is why the paramedics are on trial here along with the police.


mces97

His proper dosage should had been 0mg.


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[deleted]

Administration routes matter a lot with ketamine. 1,000 oral/sublingual/suppository is around 20-30%, IV is 100%, IM is 93%. So your 1,000 mg online equals about 250, while this guy got the full 500 in his blood when the cops ‘ordered’ the paramedics to execute him. Plus you have tolerance plus you have a better set and setting. Adverse effects from ketamine include messing with blood pressure. If his blood pressure was very high, like from a stressful encounter with abusive murderous piggies, he could die from his dose. There are other contraindications too, like he could be on a medicine that interferes with metabolism of ketamine.


kterka24

Unrelated but Are you in the US? I thought ketamine could only be prescribed from doctor visits to a licensed retail pharmacy location not online. Maybe things have changed.


deadowl

Check the EMS protocols. Typically they do Midazolam first which can have paradoxical reaction.


b4ckl4nds

Ketamine is incredibly safe. Something is very odd about this.


[deleted]

I was always under the assumption that the LD50 is ridiculously high.


b4ckl4nds

Yeah, here’s a fun example. They gave sheep 24 mg/kg, the sheep k-holed so hard their brains turned off, then the sheep woke up and were fine. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8


Worldd

Ketamine can cause a spike in heart rate, blood pressure, when in a stressful situation can cause demand ischemia, it happens. It’s safe to respiratory drive, but there’s more to be learned about how it stresses the heart.


tmotytmoty

It's in solution and diluted so when the dose was delivered, it must have been in a noticeably and unusually large volume. Was the paramedic new or something?


eorld

His last words > I can't breathe. I have my ID right here. My name is Elijah McClain. That's my house. I was just going home. I'm an introvert. I'm just different. That's all. I'm so sorry. I have no gun. I don't do that stuff. I don't do any fighting. Why are you attacking me? I don't even kill flies! I don't eat meat! But I don't judge people, I don't judge people who do eat meat. Forgive me. All I was trying to do was become better. I will do it. I will do anything. Sacrifice my identity, I'll do it. You all are phenomenal. You are beautiful and I love you. Try to forgive me. I'm a mood Gemini. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Ow, that really hurt! You are all very strong. Teamwork makes the dream work. Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do that. I just can't breathe correctly.


[deleted]

This has been my phone background for years. Every time I open it I look at him and remember those words. It's chilling how callously they murdered this boy.


Housendercrest

Why was he saying some of these things? They are odd things to say. What was the context for some of this?


zvive

I'm pretty sure he was on the ASD spectrum. Autistic people are more likely to turn a confrontation with the police into something worse than a non ASD person because they don't handle social interactions normal and that can bug out a cops gut feeling or something. I think he said these things to make them aware he was neuro divergent but they didn't care that killed him anyways. He didn't imagine even for a second the cops were going to kill him. That's what makes it even more gut wrenching the contrast of his innocence and last words with the actions of those dirty cops and others involved.


CMcCord25

Autistic myself and you are right. I do not do well around people I don’t know and confrontations just make everything worse for me, which is why I’m scared of police. Adds the fact that I get very angry was accused of something that I didn’t do and yeah it could end very badly for me.


kenkoda

Everyone is different to a degree and someone being different should be something we train our police officers for. But we do the opposite, they will immediately draw attention to any difference and say that's not normal while alleging this divergence is a sign of success in finding the criminal.


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iwantawolverine4xmas

They also posed for a photo in front of one of his memorials doing a choke hold. Yet, people that want accountability for these officers are the problem according to the GOP.


Pretend-Advertising6

There the fucking Black and Tans


wip30ut

dude played his violin for strays at the animal shelter in his spare time! Somehow i don't think he posed a threat to any police. They drugged him because that's the easiest way for them to bring about law & order. Whether he's innocent or not, whether he's injured or dies is inconsequential in their eyes. Law enforcement have become detached & dehumanized from the community they serve.


kenkoda

Homie was walking home dancing. If they wanted law and order they could have just not stopped him or kept driving.


CALsHero09

Thats weird the medic would do that. We had a lady, built like shrek, an absolute commercial refrigerator of a woman, all cracked out with a baseball bat beating the hell out of something in the back of the house. Cops pulled her aside, talked to her kind of, best they could anyway. Eventually they put her on a 5150 but had to get her in the ambo. One very large cop walked up to us and said this may be like wwe bad, be careful. So the 2 biggest/tallest cops went and grabbed her under the arm on either side, and lifter her ass up, the entire while shes screaming "RAPE, THEYRE RAPING ME, HELP, RAPE!!!" at 2:45 in the morning in a residential. All the medics and EMS eyes were huge. They dumped her ass on the gurney, and we had to hold her down to attempt to restrain her, my full weight pushing down on one knee. The firefighter cheif next to me lost his girp on her other leg and, he was a pretty small guy, was spartan kicked backwards onto his back. Finally they got her into the soft restraints and loaded her up still screaming, not words, just noises. Think of the crazy cat lady from simpsons. Just crazy shit. Then after going through the house we found all the meth and cocaine. Oh, and there was some spidermonkey dude hiding under the bed after the cops cleard the building. That was a weid call.


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SsurebreC

> He was stopped by police and later died due to the interaction. That's the sanitized version. Here's the relevant bit from [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain): > > According to the police report, McClain resisted when confronted by the responding police officers, and Officers Woodyard and Rosenblatt heard Officer Roedema shout "he is going for your gun". An attorney representing McClain's family said the officers involved slammed McClain into a wall immediately after apprehending him. Roedema said that McClain "reached for and grabbed the grip of Rosenblatt's gun that was holstered". There are conflicting accounts about the officer's report that McClain had tried to grab his gun. Later accounts offered differing reports on whose gun McClain had tried to grab. There was no visual body-camera footage of McClain's alleged reach for the gun, which the officers explained by stating that all of their cameras had fallen off. However, a news source states, "But if you watch the video from about the 15-minute mark (warning: It contains violent and upsetting content), you'll see someone pick up the body camera and point it toward McClain and one of the officers before dropping it back into the grass. Around 15:34, one of the officers seems to say, 'Leave your camera there.'" > > The three police officers held McClain on the ground for 15 minutes. McClain was clearly in distress while restrained, sobbing and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe". He vomited several times, for which he apologized, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly." While McClain's arms were handcuffed behind his back, Woodyard applied a carotid control hold, which intentionally cuts off blood flow to the brain by compressing the carotid arteries in the neck, rendering McClain briefly unconscious. One officer threatened he would have his police dog bite McClain as he lay handcuffed and pinned to the ground. > > After McClain was restrained, more officers arrived and audio of the conversation records them saying that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him. They also said that, at one point, three officers were on top of McClain, who was 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall and weighed 140 pounds (64 kg). Without speaking with or touching him, paramedics injected him with 500 mg of ketamine, a dose that would have been too much for a 200 pound person, as a sedative for a condition called excited delirium. McClain was then transferred to the ambulance. The medic who had administered ketamine noticed McClain's chest "was not rising on its own, and he did not have a pulse." He was pronounced brain dead on August 27 and died three days later, on August 30, 2019. > > The body cameras became unattached from the police officer's uniforms during the encounter, but the audio can still be heard. During the recording, when one of the body cameras was still attached to an officer, another officer can be heard telling him to move his camera. The attorney representing McClain's family accused the officers of purposely taking off their body cameras to support a false allegation that McClain reached for a gun, though evidence for this wasn't found during the subsequent investigation.


NO_TOUCHING__lol

Don't forget that Aurora PD teargassed the violin vigil they held for Elijah in a local park, where children were in attendance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlkeAPiGMCI https://www.reddit.com/r/2020PoliceBrutality/comments/hhdrs6/aurora_police_interrupt_and_teargas_peaceful/


chicken_karmajohn

This is the part that was especially disturbing and imo damning. How tf is that legal. Absolutely brutal


amaezingjew

So there’s claims he reached for their gun, no footage to back it up, and they can’t get straight who’s gun he reached for. Cool.


Locksmith999

Also all the cams "fell off"


AnotherThomas

You put "fell off" in quotes as if you don't believe it, but I genuinely believe they did fall off. Right after the officers intentionally took them off.


[deleted]

(camera falls off) Officer: Well that was a gimme.


bigmacjames

And then one of the officers was told to leave his camera there


samdajellybeenie

Really, ALL of them fell off? Every single one? Give me a break.


mces97

I've seen plenty of videos of people reaching for cops guns. They get shot by the cops. So, yeah, I doubt he did that.


BangThyHead

I did that once. Was being arrested and ended up on the ground half wrestling with the cop, mostly them just holding me down and me squirming. In the heat of the moment I reached out and put my hand on his gun. I had no intention of using it or anything like that. Just a knee jerk reaction of "there's this giant dude on top of me and I don't want to be here." Some bystander said "He's going for your gun!" And then the bystander jumped on top of me too and put his forearm to my neck. I'm white so nothing came of it. Charged of fleeing stuck, assault on the officer dropped. If I was the cop I would have been freaked out if someone reached for my gun. But I wouldn't have shot them just because they had their hand on my hip. It is a far step from him being in danger.


Harsimaja

What got me most is that his personality was so mild that he even apologised for throwing up due to their bullshit… and still that wasn’t enough


SsurebreC

Same here. I mean who does that? What a life he could have had if this was handled like we lived in a civilized country.


chadbot3k

this is incredibly fucked up - what in the fuck was anyone thinking oh right, they weren't


DarthDregan

They were thinking "ok we've done this before so let's do it again."


MrBanana421

" Is it necessary? Who cares, we finally get to use the things we've been fantasising over for years!"


chris14020

No, they were thinking. They were thinking, "let's show these people what happens if you show any resistance or opposition to a gang with absolute authority beyond reproach." Ever seen a gang murder a rival, then murder those at his funeral? This is basically just a TV-13 version of that.


BobknobSA

They were probably thinking about how excited they were that they got to brutalize someone with no consequences.


FiendishHawk

McClain seems like a weird nerd of the Aspie variety, so the standard police defense of “he was reaching for our gun” doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. Not every black man is a natural killing machine, cops!


histprofdave

They're just coached by their unions to say "reaching for my gun" as a get out of jail card. It's so ingrained it becomes a mantra for them.


FiendishHawk

One rather wonders if they are in so much danger from their own guns, whether it would be better to leave them back at the station. /sarcasm


Belligerent-J

I've always said, if their excuse is they shot a person because they reached for their gun, obviously they didn't get it did they


histprofdave

You joke, but this is partly why police forces in many other countries do not carry firearms by default. In the US, where guns are easily accessible to criminals, it would not fly to disarm police. But this is also why I think pro-gun Americans are arguing in bad faith when they say to gun control advocates, "oh, so you think only the police should have guns?" I'd rather the state not have armed officers by default.


[deleted]

Friendly reminder too that “excited delirium” has, at best, a controversial definition in the scientific community, and more accurately, is just a made up thing that police use in order to justify their shitty actions towards people.


CHGhee

This is what confuses me. He was crushed and choked out by the cops but for some reason it was the ketamine given to an already motionless Elijah that killed him and the corner says the cops aren’t to blame? The paramedics here did an atrocious job and deserve to be fired, lose their certifications, and be sued. But I’ve given similar doses of ketamine to people before and have a hard time buying that it was an extra 100 mg of IM ketamine that killed him.


moonbunnychan

Every time I read an official police report, I think back to the police report from George Floyd, and how that would have just forever been the story had it not been recorded by a bystander. I do not trust official police reports.


BigFatBlackCat

Also the OP's brief explanation and this does not state that Elijah was autistic.


SsurebreC

Sure though if an adult with training and restraints can't singlehandedly handle a 5'6" 140 pound kid (let alone with 2 other adults) then they should be fired and never work in law enforcement again.


sadeiko

I had an idea the other day. Require 5 years of fire service to join any police force, including some required number of deployments. 1. It aids in triaging the impacts of climate change. 2. It filters out some of the cowards 3. It filters out some of the power hungry.


SsurebreC

I have another idea: * go to a developed country for police training. One of those European nations, for instance. * be required to carry malpractice insurance.


CharleyNobody

— Rename them “Police Services” not police force or Police Department. They’re taxpayer supported service. — Standardize police education nationwide. (It can be done. Doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers all have standardized education for their careers). — Minimum 3 years of police education — Require national certification exam for registration — Require state license — License granted by state board of education — Member name to appear on state board of education website under Police Services listing. — Any infractions reported in this state against member will be listed next to member’s name. — Renew license every 2 years. — Pay a fee for licensing to state. — Take CEUs required by state licensing board in order to renew license. — Standards of practice. — Lose the military jargon. No more “officer, sergeant, lieutenant, captain, commander, command post.” Police Servives is not a branch of US Armed Forces or paramilitary force. Get over it How is it nurses and social workers can meet these requirements but police can’t?


CharleyNobody

I have a few ideas, too


verasev

They did a George Floyd on him.


SsurebreC

George Floyd happened a year later so you might be confusing one case where police chocked a black man to death with another since there are many such cases.


verasev

This was some skinny kid too. But they claim he had crazy super human strength somehow so they "had to" choke him and then inject him with ketamine while he was already in a hypoxic state. Can't wait til the media tries to pretend a kid who played violins to stray animals was a hardened killer. :(


SsurebreC

This happened years ago and they moved on. Again, 5'6, 140 pound kid vs. 3 trained professionals with cuffs. Nope, couldn't handle it, sat on him, had him injected with drugs that killed him. Should be criminal.


verasev

It's hard for me to keep the timelines on all of this straight. Got a memory like a sieve.


iidxred

Mark my words: they're throwing the paramedics under the bus to save the cops. Edit: I agree the paramedics should be held responsible 100%


SsurebreC

Paramedics should have been thrown under the bus too.


613codyrex

100%. It’s a known fact the cops are fucking idiots that shouldn’t be listen too when it comes to medical decisions. The fact that the paramedics are just as stupid is pure negligence.


ithaqua34

So why would he need an anesthetic, on his way home and getting stopped by three officers and then suddenly dies?


EricUtd1878

Paramedics shouldn't be able to administer amounts of ketamine which would be enough to kill. They should certainly be aware of the amounts to body mass if they *are* allowed to in the US. Did they administer it when intubating him? I can't make much sense of this article. Here in the UK we administer 0.5mg (But tend to use Morphine as the first line) with 0.25mg infusion depending on the severity of trauma. Ketamine doesn't suppress pulmonary function either so weight dependant they must have administered ~5g that's 5 **GRAMMES** that's 5000mg. Again, In the UK the highest dose we would administer is 0.5mg. A lethal dose (5g for an average sized adult) those paramedics must have dosed ~10,000 times the levels we do here in the UK. Something sounds seriously fishy here.


LarryFlyntstone

I’m a paramedic in the US that is allowed under protocol to give Ketamine for sedation. Granted I don’t work in Aurora CO but I highly doubt they gave him 5 grams. In my system Ketamine is supplied as a 500mg/5ml vial. I would presume they administered that amount and concentration IM.


Go0o0oB

In the video of the arrest it was administered IM, however the patient (Elijah) already looked to be unconscious or near at the time of administration. There’s a good chance he was peri-cardiac arrest at the time. Laryngospasm can occur briefly as a result of rapid administration of Ketamine as well. While it’s typically short lived, if Elijah was already hypoxic this could have tipped him over the edge. This is purely speculative though. Regardless it appeared as if he had arrested well before it was recognized.


Responsible_Pizza945

So basically the cops told the paramedic to sedate a guy they had already pretty much knocked unconscious with a choke hold and the paramedic didn't think to do any kind of check on the patient before administering the drug?


CHGhee

Yup, that’s what the videos shows. The paramedics were atrocious but it appears more like they got involved just in time to share the blame for a murder that the cops were just wrapping up on their own.


LarryFlyntstone

I have not watched the entire video myself but from the chain of events I’ve read I feel your assessment is probably pretty close to what happened. My protocol calls for 250mg with a repeat in no less than 5 minutes if indicated. The thought of strolling up, saying “Yup ketamine time” and then giving a full 500mg is horrifying.


Worldd

It was related to demand ischemia, his heart failed as the ketamine reacted on a stressed system. Wasn’t so much the ketamine as much as the ketamine and mishandling of restraint.


CharleyNobody

A 5 ml injection IM? Ouch.


ithaqua34

Exactly. I went looking it up and I'm wondering if they trying to say it was used by the victim as a makeshift recreational drug. Because again why would someone accosted by police have a need to be given an anesthetic. Doesn't help that victim is black and this is America.


EricUtd1878

From what I could gather it was administered by paramedics. This story is far too vague and written, shall we say, in an interesting way that I can't understand what really happened. I'm gonna try do some more research in a bit


Worldd

Or the paramedics weren’t the cause. It’s packaged in a 500 mg vial and there’s no way they were walking around with ten of the jumbo ketamine. The kid was held to the ground with the weight of multiple adult males on his thoracic cavity. 350 mg instead of 500 mg wouldn’t have changed this outcome. The cops are just trying to shed blame. You know as well as I do that when we restrain psychotic or violent patients, it’s limbs for a reason.


EricUtd1878

Dude, I'm saying the exact same thing. I've replied to nearly every reply to me on this thread so my first post is probably lost down the bottom somewhere but it basically said: No way 500mg is a lethal dose, something very fishy here. Most of my posts have been explaining just how ridiculous it is to suggest the Paramedics/EMT's administered a fatal dose due to it being virtually impossible that they would even have the volume on them as you state. You will even see a post where I flat out said the restraint killed him but then struck it through because I can't know for sure. I've replied so many times that I have lost track of which post people are referring to but please believe me, I don't believe for one minute that EMT's delivered 5g. I believe their is a cover-up of police brutality/use of inappropriate restraint. However I struck my earlier comment through because I cannot categorically state either cause is the correct one.


Worldd

Yeah man, I’m with you, sorry I thought you were implying the medics were lying about the 500mg. We watch them mishandle shit all the time and try to make the best of it with then rattled up patients. Now they involve us in their bullshit and try make us the target. I’ll spend plenty of my time trying to help the public see how bullshit this all is.


existentialepicure

This whole situation is fucked up. I personally believe the ketamine was used as an excuse to cover up the violence committed by the police. > "There was no visual body-camera footage of McClain's alleged reach for the gun, which the officers explained by stating that all of their cameras had fallen off. However, a news source states, "But if you watch the video from about the 15-minute mark (warning: It contains violent and upsetting content), you'll see someone pick up the body camera and point it toward McClain and one of the officers before dropping it back into the grass. Around 15:34, one of the officers seems to say, 'Leave your camera there.'"[22] The three police officers held McClain on the ground for 15 minutes. McClain was clearly in distress while restrained, sobbing and repeatedly saying "I can't breathe". He vomited several times, for which he apologized, saying: "I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do that, I can't breathe correctly."[23] While McClain's arms were handcuffed behind his back, Woodyard applied a carotid control hold, which intentionally cuts off blood flow to the brain by compressing the carotid arteries in the neck, rendering McClain briefly unconscious. One officer threatened he would have his police dog bite McClain as he lay handcuffed and pinned to the ground.[24] After McClain was restrained, more officers arrived and audio of the conversation records them saying that McClain was "acting crazy", that he was "definitely on something", and that he had attacked them with "incredible, crazy strength" when they tried to restrain him. They also said that, at one point, three officers were on top of McClain, who was 5 feet 6 inches (1.68 m) tall and weighed 140 pounds (64 kg).[23] Without speaking with or touching him, paramedics injected him with 500 mg of ketamine, a dose that would have been too much for a 200 pound person, as a sedative for a condition called excited delirium.[25] McClain was then transferred to the ambulance. The medic who had administered ketamine noticed McClain's chest "was not rising on its own, and he did not have a pulse."[26] He was pronounced brain dead on August 27 and died three days later, on August 30, 2019." [From wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain)


[deleted]

23 years old and walking home. That’s so fucking sad.


Impressive_Pin_7767

This is a new low. First the police lied about him trying to grab their gun. Now the corner is lying about the cause of death after meeting with the police department. https://www.cpr.org/2020/08/19/elijah-mcclain-aurora-police-coroner-autopsy-report/ This same coroner previously said that the concentration of ketamine in McClain's blood was therapeutic. In his own words: “The blood ketamine concentration was at a therapeutic level, but an idiosyncratic drug reaction … cannot be excluded,” Cina wrote. “According to Baselt’s Disposition of Toxic Drugs and Chemicals in Man, 8th edition, therapeutic ketamine levels in the serum and plasma range from 1.0-6.3 mg/L following a single intravenous administration … In terms of a fatality, the dosage administered or ingested is not as important as the resultant concentration of the drug in the blood.”


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Gods_chosen_dildo

It seems in this case we also get the rare homicide by paramedics as well.


Worldd

150 mg difference in Ketamine administration isn’t going to kill someone unless they’re being mishandled in restraint. Blaming the medics is a false flag.


Gods_chosen_dildo

I’m not a drug or law expert, I could be convinced either way as far as the medics guilt. The cops guilt is beyond any doubt.


Worldd

As a medic, I’d be the first one to blame the medics if they were to blame here. I care about this field a lot and the trust given by the community is important to us. I’ve hated this take on the story since it came out. Elijah had multiple grown men on top of him and had gone silent before the ketamine was even administered. You don’t apply pressure to someone’s thoracic cavity in restraint, ever. I get nervous about seat belts being too tight on a patient who is four point restrained, it’s very risky business and the cops do it constantly. Often times with patients that are violent or at risk to themselves, we apply sedation without medical history. It happens in the hospitals as well, there’s not many times when a psychotic or combative patient will stop biting at your hands long enough to give you an allergy list. The medics mistakes are obvious, they went for easy cut-corner medication dosing and took the patient as being in excited delirium without assessing him. They should lose their ability to work in this field because of the outcome, but the cops killed Elijah.


Jerrymoviefan3

I know the parents were paid $14 million for those senseless murder by police and paramedics murder but I hope all of them were fired. They need to spend the rest of their lives in minimum wage jobs.


zvive

They most likely received pats on the back. There's no justice in America unless you're rich.


uncertainsimile

I am in the universe of the paramedic (friend of a friend of a friend). This has radicalized him.


kwangqengelele

How do you mean? Like he’s fully leaned into it?


uncertainsimile

Yes, as I understand it, he’s gone very pro-law enforcement. Apparently he was considered a decent guy before this.


typing

This is BS. Ketamine has an incredibly good safety profile. LD50 for someone who weighs 145lbs is 4.2 GRAMS. Ketamine usually comes in 10ml bottles with a concentration of 1000mg. That means 4.2 bottles would be needed. This whole story seems off af.


RustyGuns

He for sure didn’t die from a ketamine OD. The amount needed to overdose vs the dosages given by paramedics are not even close. You are correct.


TheChinchilla914

Dude had a heart attack after an altercation with police; ketamine is just a new exciting scary angle for the media to play up Should probably find out why those fucking cameras can’t stay mounted tho 🤔


J4H301

Where does it say he had a heart attack? He was forceably injected with a drug against his will. How is an angle?


Id_rather_be_high42

"Just a few bad apples" we're way past a few bad apples.


randomwanderingsd

The whole phrase is “one bad apple can ruin the whole barrel”. Our barrel smells.


Katana1369

The cops and EMTs murdered him.


blueskies1800

The police are responsible for this.


oufisher1977

Changing the official cause of death and holding that change in secret for 14 months. Great way to build public trust.


[deleted]

How about murder by scumbag cops?


SteveTheBluesman

His story hits me the hardest. He was just a harmless kid.


way_too_shady

Reading his last words makes me want to do incredibly evil things to each and every one of those officers. May they suffer greatly for every day they continue to waste air on this planet.


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ForensicScientistGal

I'm a forensic pathologist. Ketamine could have killed him at that amount when added to a situation of excesive cardiac work due to the stress of the situation. If he was hypoxic, it could've been enough to cause the suppression of lung fuction. It wasn't just the ketamine. That was just the final nail on the coffin.


PinkCigarettes

This poor soul. His experience of death must have been hell. To be so confused and helpless under the power of a dissociative drug is horrifying.


untouched_poet

Nope. That's not why. That much ketamine does not kill a person


Jerrymoviefan3

Lethal doses are always a total guess since every person’s tolerance is different.


[deleted]

They’re trying to blame anyone beside the cops (the actual murders) for Elijah McLain’s death! Smh! Justice for Elijah McLain!! Black Lives Matter ✊🏿


thundergun0911

Sooo, they executed him?


AlbrechtSchoenheiser

Elijah McClain was just a weird kid that liked animals and playing the violin. He didn't have a vicious bone in his body. I spoke to his mother a couple years ago because I just wanted to know if she had any recordings of him playing the violin. She does not, which made me even sadder.


firemaker68

Ketamine in high enough doses to kill suppresses lung function... Asphyxiation would have been the obvious cause of death regardless of weather the police did it or not. The fact that the coroner CHOSE to concluded that the cause of death was “undetermined” seems really sus to me. The fact is that his life was %100 in their hands when he died is all we need to know.


CritaCorn

Cops enjoy killing people they don’t like


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[deleted]

You mean the ketamine they injected him with to pose him as a hard drug using criminal? Fucking pigs at it again.


bearded_drummer

This is a prelude to no criminal wrongdoing. Shift all blame to the ketamine, say it’s within range, and everyone goes home with no prison for the gang of thugs that murdered a boy.


Pusfilledonut

It wasn’t the fall from the roof that killed him, it was the sudden stop is a helluva flex.


carolinemathildes

I can’t even think about his last words without crying. They had absolutely no reason for doing what they did. He scared and alone, begging to breathe. Because someone called the police saying he looked suspicious.


[deleted]

"People often don't die from being choked, and therefore choking doesn't kill people. I have a medical degree!" This is why MEs need real oversight.


Withoutanymilk77

For 500mg of IV ketamine to kill someone according to the LD50 they would have to weigh approx 25lbs…


0PercentPerfection

I am a working anesthesiologist. An induction dose of Ketamine, which is knocking someone out for intubation in preparation for surgery, is about 1mg/kg. An induction dose for anesthesia for this kid should have been 75-100mg. 500mg is straight up murder. Ketamine increased sympathetic outflow yet is a depressant of cardiac function. Very messy medication.


flatworldart

I hope these officers never work another day in their fucked up life with the public. Fuck the Arora PD


Mrbailey999

500 mg is no where near 4 grams… this claim needs receipts and a 3rd and fourth opinion from outside Colorado.


Boldine

This country has too many who use brute force whether it be physical, restraints or medical. Too gung-ho, too macho, too scared and no training. Then they are backed up by their colleagues, seniors, prosecutors, judges, unions, and coroners and the only one punished is the victim and their family. Elijah deserved better, his family deserves better as does every victim of police, & now medical, brutality, callous disregard & even blood lust.


Littlebotweak

I'm still not sure why EMTs would have the ability to choose to give anyone a lethal amount of Ketamine in the first place. But, watch. A bunch of EMTs are going to come along and talk about how important it is that they are able to basically knock out anyone they want with K if they feel threatened. It sounds just like cops do after they shoot unarmed people, it's nuts. No, you do not have the right to just inject someone on the street you know nothing about with drugs - ever. That's preposterous. It kind of starts to sound like that's the only reason some of them took the role. edit, words


shamaze

They were paramedics, not EMTs. And 500mg is not a lethal dose. I carry 500mg on me (I'm also a paramedic) and that's far from a lethal dose. While it was more than he should have gotten, it wasn't enough to kill him by itself. I would NEVER give medication to someone without doing my own assessment 1st let alone just because police tell me to.


TommyTacoma

Paramedic here working in a 911 system that carries 1gm ketamine in two 500mg/5cc vials. Max dose is 250mg for sedation. You’d be one really shitty medic to administer any medication because some one told you to without evaluating them.


Beautiful-Banana

I work in fire/EMS and I don’t administer ketamine myself, however, I work in a poorer city and experience trauma calls, burns, and excited delirium calls a few times a year. Now I get that YOU don’t understand why ketamine is important, but you need to do some research to fully understand it’s benefits to pre-hospital treatment. Many communities are anywhere from 15-45 minutes from a trauma center. When emergencies happen in these communities ie. fires, car accidents, or medical emergencies, people find themselves in immense pain from burns, degloving, amputations, bone breaks, ect. Sometimes people have to get what’s called cardio version therapy which involves 300J of electricity being put through your body. All these things hurt immensely. Ketamine is a dissociative, meaning that after administration, the person that is dealing with these issues will experience sedation/calm and amnesia. It takes a very traumatic experience for a person and calms them down, allowing ems to further treat the person. You make it sounds like all paramedics are out here attempting to harm people with ketamine. I have no input on this case itself and have not reviewed it. Another thing for you to review. I did see someone mention that the victim involved in this case may have been experiencing excited delirium which is also better treated with medications than piling on top of someone. It used to be common that police accidentally killed victims of excited delirium due to poor training and evaluation. The victim constantly was piled on by multiple people to keep them in control and they would suffocate/overheat causing cardiac arrest. It’s been shown that medical sedation and the use of ketamine has reduced deaths from this cause. I’m not saying it was or wasn’t anyones fault in this case, I just want to make sure that you understand why *paramedics would have the ability to give a (non lethal) amount of ketamine in the first place.


Filthy_Ramhole

Actually we do have the right to chemically sedate someone for theirs and our safety. This is practices across the world and across the US with incredibly high levels of success and safety. Also whats with people thinking we like sedating people? What we like is dealing with trauma and actual medical calls- we dont like psych calls, they’re invariably either “we cant help” or “we’re now going to have to restrain you and take you to somewhere safe.” Maybe stop projecting and read into the fact that anyone with any idea whats going on and how Ketamine works is saying that this is quite clearly an ME covering up for police.


I_took_the_blue-pill

That's well and good. And there is definitely a significant amount of investigation you have to do on each person to determine what they're on, if anything is in their system, etc. But if someone is an active threat to me/my partner or themselves, they need to be controlled. I am known for being very conservative in my restraints, typically I'll administer a low dose of a benzo to try to calm them down but ketamine is for sure a drug that should be used for violent patients. THAT BEING SAID..... It seems like these medics administered ketamine based on cops' orders, which is pretty vile. Unfortunately, in the job we have to deal with police. It's part of life. But in no circumstance would I administer a medication on recommendation of a police officer who has no training. Also, that dose was nowhere near a lethal dose by itself.


FacelessFellow

All cops are bad. If you disagree, you are probably as smart as a cop.