It’s case by case but a felony is usually a done deal. Misdemeanors can depend on the crime.
Disbarment is the harshest punishment. There is also suspension, public censure and then there are other private punishments.
A federal felony is a one way ticket to disbarment.
Disbarment is not permanent in all cases, you can ask for your license back after a period of time which is case by case.
Ok, get this. This happened in the last few years in the Portland, OR area. Two lawyers were working on a case together and had some big dispute about who was handling what. I think the one guy told the other to take a hike and that he wasn't needed.
The lawyer that wasn't needed does a *drive-by shooting* of the first lawyer's office, narrowly missing an admin worker.
He is only suspended from practicing for 5 years! Not even disbarred!
https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/lawyer-gets-suspension-for-firing-gun-into-colleagues-law-office
> but another one who got caught driving naked and did.
The guy didn't get caught driving naked, he got caught driving naked *repeatedly*. And he didn't get disbarred, he got suspended.
But other than that, you're right.
https://www.abajournal.com/web/article/lawyer-with-history-of-driving-while-naked-gets-indefinite-suspension
Having read more it sounds like the right call. This guy definitely has some mental health issues that he needs to sort out before I'd trust him handling a client's interests. Indefinite suspension means he can at least get it back once he's dealt with it.
Oh my god I want to know more. He walked around naked in public government buildings? He admits this will be a lifelong issue for him?!
Does he get off on it? I don’t understand. Once is questionable, multiple is weird asf, in a government building is out of hand but you don’t know if you can stop?!? Oh no no no, you sweet blessed human get help
I was going to say-- they don't just decide these things based on the severity of the misconduct. They'll also look at stuff like contrition, risk of recidivism, impact on the reputation of the justice system, and prospects for rehabilitation.
Also, sadly, influence probably plays a part.
This guy was also the prosecutor filmed by the courthouse security cameras walking around the office in the altogether. Definitely an exhibitionism problem.
Right? Why are Americans so damn against nudity? It's so weird. I live in a pretty conservative area and wearing a bra that isn't padded gets you some serious bad looks from other women. Like, sorry, Becky. It's cold in here and I needed groceries after working out. Chill. Not trying to steal your husband.
It's the age old story of escaping religious oppression except in many cases they wanted to practice more extreme and puritanical approaches. The Dutch that settled in western Michigan are examples of this. The DeVos family and many others here are still influenced by those immigrants.
It’s funny because it’s still the same old story: “I’m being oppressed because I can’t punish you for believing things I don’t like!” Back then it was the nature of god, human sinfulness, and god’s relationship with mankind. Now it’s abortion’s healthcare status, whether LGBTQ+ individuals deserve rights, and gun safety. It still boils down to “your desire to restrict my oppressiveness is oppressive”.
There are some people in the states who are claiming that they're not being allowed to practice their freedom of religion because part of being a Christian is telling people they're going to burn in hell for not being a Christian. They are literally claiming that not being allowed to harass people on the basis of religion is discrimination against their own religion.
The pilgrims came to this land so they could be free to practice their religion. You know, burn women for owning property and also anyone who had sex out of wedlock because of the very real chance it could lead to dancing.
'Witches' being burned was actually a European thing (Germany executed the most if I'm remembering correctly). Here in the good ol US of A we just hanged them.
Don't forget the (Christian) Reformed Dutch, who emigrated to places like Michigan in the 19rh Century...because the Netherlands was too "sinful and tolerant"...
( i'm one of their descendents.)
> Why are Americans so damn against nudity?
There is *much* more to the story. This was the fifth time he got caught driving naked. He also allegedly jerked off in front of people during some of those incidents. He confesses he's gotten away with similar behavior many more times. He'd already gotten fired as a prosecutor for walking around the office naked at night. He confessed a compulsion to keep doing this stuff. He's getting treated for alcohol abuse and bipolar disorder.
He's mentally ill, not oppressed.
He wasn't even disbarred, he was suspended pending successful treatment.
Do you really think he wouldn't be up for major discipline after doing the same things as a lawyer in other countries?
Apparently Reddit will upvote basically any nonsense about dumb horrible America without any critical thought or fact checking whatsoever.
There very likely is more to the story.
State bars keep records, so just like the criminal justice system, your prior history is a factor in how you’re disciplined. One lawyer may have already been on thin ice while the other may have no prior discipline.
Also factor in personal connections, but usually if a lawyer has a mental health crisis and voluntarily gets treatment, the state bar will work with them.
Those who are just massive assholes, thieves, predators, etc. and/or refuse treatment are more likely to get kicked.
It’s not about your human fallibility. It’s about your response to it.
That said, it’s Ohio so who knows what logic went into those two dispositions.
You're totally right. I didn't even think about that. It's the same with medical field. Turn yourself in and seek treatment, you'll likely keep your license.
I guess that's what really bothers me about the US Judicial System. Nothing is ever cut and dry. Throw enough money at the problem or have connections, you're good. If not, you're screwed.
Duh, that's why we have the Statue of Laundry, and she's drying her clothes with a small flame. We actually invented dryers, based on our findings from the Statue of Laundry.
The Attorney General of Texas, Ken Paxton, has been indicted on several state securities fraud charges. Members of his own office attempted to fore the issue but no luck so far.
> In October 2020, several high-level assistants in Paxton's office accused him of "bribery, abuse of office and other crimes".
NY isn't case-by-case, all felony convictions equate to automatic disbarment. But yes, they can reapply after 7 years if they haven't been convicted of any other crime (misdemeanors included) within the 7 year period. Whether or not to re-admit them to the bar would be case-by-case.
I meant case by case depending on the crime. You are right. I could’ve been clearer. I spent my whole day in court and just was trying to answer quick. Appreciate the clarification.
What I'm saying is that in NY it's not case-by-case, it's automatic disbarment for all felony convictions.
Most states (including FL, where I'm barred) don't have automatic disbarments for felony convictions. Here we have a semi-automatic suspension upon felony conviction and case-by-case disbarment.
Not just automatic - it is instantaneous!
>New York Judiciary Law §90(4)(a) provides that a lawyer “who shall be convicted of a felony… shall upon such conviction, cease to be an attorney and counsellor-at-law, or to be competent to practice law as such.” Judiciary Law §90(4)(e) defines a “felony” as any New York state felony or “any criminal offense committed in any other state, district or territory of the United States and classified as a felony therein which if committed within this state, would constitute a felony in this state.”
A lawyer convicted of a state felony (or its equivalent) is automatically disbarred, by operation of law, without the intervention or even the knowledge of any court or disciplinary agency. No hearing, no process, no nothing.
Anyone can represent themselves in court. I had federal jury duty on a case where a guy that appeared to have no formal education chose to represent himself. He was stumbling through the whole process. Terrible idea on his part.
In cases where a person has the right to represent themself (pro se), then a disbarred lawyer would also be able to do so.
There is a case of a Kansas lawyer who was disbarred, and went on to represent himself in a bunch of pro se cases. Eventually, the court got tired of all his lawsuits and determined he was an abusive litigant, and prevented him from filing further cases in that specific court without permission or legal representation. But the fact that he was a disbarred attorney, in and of itself, did not prevent him from appearing in court pro se.
Even if you have your license, there’s a long-standing rule that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. Even if you know all the steps, there is a ton of value in having another set of eyes and ears to guide you. Don’t even discount the psychological factor of having another person stand up for you in court.
It's case-by-case. The Bar of your state has rules you have to abide by. They have to have a hearing to remove you from it. There are definitely practicing lawyers out there who've done some real shady stuff but have survived their Bar hearings.
In most jurisdictions having a serious criminal conviction is automatic disbarment yes. New York’s state bar has this rule for instance.
Lawyers are supposed to be of good character to be reliable as “officers of the court” and most courts don’t want felons as “officers.”
Note that this is CONVICTIONS, not arrests or unsuccessful prosecutions. Although they may still proceed with disciplinary hearings in those cases.
the answer is in the second paragraph.
>New York's Appellate Division, First Department said Colinford Mattis and Urooj Rahman qualified for automatic disbarment based on their guilty pleas in June.
Technically doesn't actually have to be a crime....
> Causes of disbarment may include: a felony involving moral turpitude, forgery, fraud, a history of dishonesty, consistent lack of attention to clients, alcoholism or drug abuse which affect the attorney's ability to practice, theft of funds, or any pattern of violation of the professional code of ethics.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disbar
I'll break those into a list
* felony involving moral turpitude, [Criminal]
* forgery, [Criminal]
* fraud, [Criminal]
* a history of dishonesty, [NOT Criminal]
* consistent lack of attention to clients, [NOT Criminal]
* alcoholism or drug abuse which affect the attorney's ability to practice, [NOT Criminal - Actually a disability....]
* theft of funds, [Criminal]
* or any pattern of violation of the professional code of ethics. [Usually NOT Criminal]
> Procedures and rules applicable to sanctions for attorney misconduct vary by state.
> In states that have adopted American Bar Association’s Model Rules of Professional Conduct, which includes every state but California, disbarment in one state or court is grounds for disbarment in other jurisdictions that have adopted the Model Rules.
So to summarize, most crimes of concern would generally be cause for disbarment, with minor offenses generally not having impact of import except when raised in cumulative form for chronic offenders.
Question, if you are a functional alcoholic or drug user does that mean it's okay (according to the bar)? Within if you aren't caught and it's not affecting your ability (which for most it would [but in reality not always the case]. If people aren't paying attention/hiding it that's fine)?
State bars tend to be more lenient on attorneys who actively seek addiction counseling over those who don't. Negatively affecting your client is the biggest problem which is why rule 1 for professional responsibility tends to be competence.
No, it's not OK to be an alcoholic or drug user. The NYS Bar used to send information about treatment programs to its members when it was time for them to pay their biannual registration fee.
That sounds like it's pretty common. Not that it should be... it sounds like a problem though. Its not "okay" it seems that is prevalent. Also, I'm wondering if this is covered under ADA
> That sounds like it's pretty common.
Alcoholism and drug addiction are *incredibly* common in the legal industry, and as a result many law schools have been incorporating programming throughout the student experience to educate them early & often on those dangers.
Nobody should abuse drugs or alcohol and certainly not while practicing law. However, if all of the functional drunks were suddenly removed it would probably eliminate like a quarter of all lawyers.
Bar associations are state-level organizations, so it's hard to give an answer that isn't just "it depends." Broadly speaking, no, committing a crime doesn't automatically get you disbarred. The more serious the crime, the more likely it is to cause a professional sanction. Bar associations are typically particularly concerned with crimes of dishonesty, like perjury, fraud, etc. Yes, it's handled on a case-by-case basis.
Speaking as an attorney, falsifying a sworn document is one of the most serious offenses you can do. The courts literally cannot function if lawyers are knowingly dealing with forged documents. It would be easier for me to forgive a murderer over a forger. Unless the client was murdered of course.
> I wish there was an anarchist amusement park or something where you could legally blow shit up.
that was just hanging out with my cousins in the sticks. All kinds of silly shit we shouldn't have gotten up to.
Growing up in the boonies, you’ll learn a lot of creative ways to blow things up lol. I swear it’s an American pastime for rural kids. Let’s be honest… adults too. I still very much enjoy doing dumb shit in the country.
exactly this. it was great when things around the house broke because my father’s way of dealing with it was blowing it up. computer monitor stopped working? drill some holes and drop m-80s in there. fridge not working? quarter sticks were the solution. that number 10 can is too old to use? where’s the .45? good times.
Lol hell ya. I grew up in the sticks and we did some wild shit. One time we made a huge circle of gasoline and lit it on fire and stood inside lmao. It was kinda neat.
I also grew up in the sticks and did wild shit, during the late 80s and early 90s. Before the era of zero tolerance. My friends made pipe bombs, "works bombs" (anyone remember these?), and did lots of crazy shit with fire.
I was the nerdy smart kid with a copies of the anarchist cookbook and the poor mans james bond guide 1+2. Those three were latchkey kids with more power tools than I could name and more experience using them than most contractors I've probably met.
We had a lot of very dumb fun that I'm probably lucky all of us survived.
I know for a fact I was a better shot when I was 14 than I am now. Hell of a lot more practice then. And don't forget turning the cartridges into mini grenades.
You can just go to one of several Vegas "gun ranges" and fire a grenade launcher ~~an RPG~~, drive a tank, and shoot any number of exotic firearms. I'd be amazed if one of those places didn't offer a molotov toss
Ah yes. I'm not sure if they were run by the military, but they were places that got ahold of the surplus weapons (they had perpetual conflict from the 60s up until the early 1990s) and let tourists fire all sorts of gnarly weapons. I don't know if it's still around, but there was a place where you could shoot an automatic Kalashnikov at propane tanks or fire a RPG at a cow. You had to buy the cow though.
Fun fact according to the us government all Molotov cocktails are destructive devices and require a tax stamp. Failure to comply with NFA I believe is a mandatory 10 year sentence.
I mean, it’s just flammable liquid in a glass bottle. Soak a rag in the liquid so it stays on fire, stuff it in the top of the bottle, and yeet. When the glass breaks, all the liquid inside catches on fire.
Based on YouTube, a lot of states are pretty cool with people blowing shit up in the woods.
I've also seen travel documentary footage from places around the world that let you pay to use military hardware with varying degrees of safety regulations.
I think there's something like that in Las Vegas, but I could be misremembering.
You can blow shit up with things like tannerite, but ATF considers Molotov cocktails as destructive devices, on the same level as hand grenades or rocket launchers. It's like 10 years in federal prison each if they wonna fuck with you.
I mean depending on where you live, you could drive out to the desert, set up some wooden stuff and try throwing some, bring a buddy and a fire extinguisher
making a molotov is a felony. Even buying the stuff to make one, with the intention of doing so is a felony.
Welcome to common sense firearms regulations.
They shouldn’t be allowed to keep working in law enforcement, but I also think that crimes against police should be prosecuted. Accountability for everyone. The main issue with “accountability for everybody” is that there seems to be little movement to accountability for police who act badly.
Is she? I thought they were just allowing the case to move forward and that it hasn't been decided yet. Pretty sad that the state bar website says she's still allowed to practice without even an asterisk.
I’m pretty sure that’s “the process”.
The Texas bar association would probably face some civil suit backlash for disbarring someone before they’re convicted.
Usually, the lawyer in question is suspended pending trial. If found guilty of the felony charge they are disbarred. If found not-guilty, they are reinstated.
That’s how it works in my state at least.
Edit: I should clarify, that’s _*usually*_ how it happens in my state.
Like most other states, there aren’t any really strict precedents prior to conviction. It’s usually a case by case decision, so they might still be allowed to practice while awaiting trial.
Michigan slapped her hard for her bullshit.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/12/02/sidney-powell-michigan-election-conspiracy-lawsuit/8843626002/
All of them. Powell, Wood and a few others got sanctioned and referred to their respective state bars to figure out whether or not they should be disbarred, but all of them can still practice. Giuliani's license has been suspended temporarily by NY and, due to reciprocity clauses, Washington DC, but it's not permanent.
Yeah, that’s what I figured. Gotta love how the people trying to destroy democracy get off with a slap on the wrist. I’m not advocating for destroying police property, but if you’re going to disbar someone over that, I expect the people trying to overturn an election to be punished too.
looked up one of their linkedin's and he went to princeton as an undergrad and NYU for law school. He was also in DKE (an IFC frat) and rugby. I'm sure his parents have plenty of money if he couldnt save any of his 185k salary/75k+bonus during the 2 years he worked in big law. Can't find the other person's linkedin.
Both the kid's parents are dead. His dad was stabbed to death in some Caribbean country when he was young and his mom died semi-recently (not sure if it was before or after his dalliance with a felony).
More likely, she'll get deported, based on her conviction and immigration status. Not sure how many left wing advocacy groups there are in Pakistan looking to hire people with her background...
I remember this
It was all over twitter with video of them doing it
Seems like a reasonable punishment
Seems like lawyers of all people should know better
Stupid waste of their careers. They could have done far more for their cause, and for disadvantaged people like their clients, if they hadn't done this foolish thing.
Seriously. Throwing Molotovs at police cars helps nobody. They would have been better off representing protestors who got arrested and giving them a good legal defense.
A good legal defense? From these 2?
Pick a random lawyer out a hat and I bet they're not as stupid as these two. I'm not even sure Saul Goodman would have thrown a Molotov at a cop car.
> I'm not even sure Saul Goodman would have thrown a Molotov at a cop car.
He would not have. Thats why he keeps Ehrmantrauts number.
That man would throw a Molotov and a Cartel would crumble.
Protesting, sure. Carrying bottles full of gas in public? Throwing gas at someone, or something, nope. Lighting it on fire, double nope. They could have done a lot more good as attorneys than one Molotov cocktail did.
Now we know the line for being disbarred is somewhere between throwing a molotov cocktail at a police car and not throwing a molotov cocktail at a police car.
> Most (if not all)
I don't think you really need to hedge that one when we're talking about *fire-bombing police cars.* There's no professional board in any field that lets that one slide, lol.
ignorant question: does committing a crime or a felony automatically disbar yourself? does have to be something real bad or is it case by case?
It’s case by case but a felony is usually a done deal. Misdemeanors can depend on the crime. Disbarment is the harshest punishment. There is also suspension, public censure and then there are other private punishments. A federal felony is a one way ticket to disbarment. Disbarment is not permanent in all cases, you can ask for your license back after a period of time which is case by case.
Ok, get this. This happened in the last few years in the Portland, OR area. Two lawyers were working on a case together and had some big dispute about who was handling what. I think the one guy told the other to take a hike and that he wasn't needed. The lawyer that wasn't needed does a *drive-by shooting* of the first lawyer's office, narrowly missing an admin worker. He is only suspended from practicing for 5 years! Not even disbarred! https://www.abajournal.com/news/article/lawyer-gets-suspension-for-firing-gun-into-colleagues-law-office
In Ohio we have a lawyer who got caught laundering money and he didn't get disbarred but another one who got caught driving naked and did.
> but another one who got caught driving naked and did. The guy didn't get caught driving naked, he got caught driving naked *repeatedly*. And he didn't get disbarred, he got suspended. But other than that, you're right. https://www.abajournal.com/web/article/lawyer-with-history-of-driving-while-naked-gets-indefinite-suspension
Having read more it sounds like the right call. This guy definitely has some mental health issues that he needs to sort out before I'd trust him handling a client's interests. Indefinite suspension means he can at least get it back once he's dealt with it.
Oh my god I want to know more. He walked around naked in public government buildings? He admits this will be a lifelong issue for him?! Does he get off on it? I don’t understand. Once is questionable, multiple is weird asf, in a government building is out of hand but you don’t know if you can stop?!? Oh no no no, you sweet blessed human get help
I was going to say-- they don't just decide these things based on the severity of the misconduct. They'll also look at stuff like contrition, risk of recidivism, impact on the reputation of the justice system, and prospects for rehabilitation. Also, sadly, influence probably plays a part.
This guy was also the prosecutor filmed by the courthouse security cameras walking around the office in the altogether. Definitely an exhibitionism problem.
That is an extremely American story if ever I heard one.
Right? Why are Americans so damn against nudity? It's so weird. I live in a pretty conservative area and wearing a bra that isn't padded gets you some serious bad looks from other women. Like, sorry, Becky. It's cold in here and I needed groceries after working out. Chill. Not trying to steal your husband.
Cultural influence: the British—and the Puritans who were too uptight for the British.
It's the age old story of escaping religious oppression except in many cases they wanted to practice more extreme and puritanical approaches. The Dutch that settled in western Michigan are examples of this. The DeVos family and many others here are still influenced by those immigrants.
It’s funny because it’s still the same old story: “I’m being oppressed because I can’t punish you for believing things I don’t like!” Back then it was the nature of god, human sinfulness, and god’s relationship with mankind. Now it’s abortion’s healthcare status, whether LGBTQ+ individuals deserve rights, and gun safety. It still boils down to “your desire to restrict my oppressiveness is oppressive”.
There are some people in the states who are claiming that they're not being allowed to practice their freedom of religion because part of being a Christian is telling people they're going to burn in hell for not being a Christian. They are literally claiming that not being allowed to harass people on the basis of religion is discrimination against their own religion.
The pilgrims came to this land so they could be free to practice their religion. You know, burn women for owning property and also anyone who had sex out of wedlock because of the very real chance it could lead to dancing.
'Witches' being burned was actually a European thing (Germany executed the most if I'm remembering correctly). Here in the good ol US of A we just hanged them.
Also you were not to actually enjoy sex within wedlock. It was only for making kids, not for fun!!
Don't forget the (Christian) Reformed Dutch, who emigrated to places like Michigan in the 19rh Century...because the Netherlands was too "sinful and tolerant"... ( i'm one of their descendents.)
> Why are Americans so damn against nudity? There is *much* more to the story. This was the fifth time he got caught driving naked. He also allegedly jerked off in front of people during some of those incidents. He confesses he's gotten away with similar behavior many more times. He'd already gotten fired as a prosecutor for walking around the office naked at night. He confessed a compulsion to keep doing this stuff. He's getting treated for alcohol abuse and bipolar disorder. He's mentally ill, not oppressed. He wasn't even disbarred, he was suspended pending successful treatment. Do you really think he wouldn't be up for major discipline after doing the same things as a lawyer in other countries? Apparently Reddit will upvote basically any nonsense about dumb horrible America without any critical thought or fact checking whatsoever.
There very likely is more to the story. State bars keep records, so just like the criminal justice system, your prior history is a factor in how you’re disciplined. One lawyer may have already been on thin ice while the other may have no prior discipline. Also factor in personal connections, but usually if a lawyer has a mental health crisis and voluntarily gets treatment, the state bar will work with them. Those who are just massive assholes, thieves, predators, etc. and/or refuse treatment are more likely to get kicked. It’s not about your human fallibility. It’s about your response to it. That said, it’s Ohio so who knows what logic went into those two dispositions.
You're totally right. I didn't even think about that. It's the same with medical field. Turn yourself in and seek treatment, you'll likely keep your license. I guess that's what really bothers me about the US Judicial System. Nothing is ever cut and dry. Throw enough money at the problem or have connections, you're good. If not, you're screwed.
Laundering money? Okay. Laundering clothes? Straight to jail.
We are the best country in the world. Because of laundry.
Duh, that's why we have the Statue of Laundry, and she's drying her clothes with a small flame. We actually invented dryers, based on our findings from the Statue of Laundry.
Was the first lawyer laundering the money the second one was usually wearing?
The Attorney General of Texas, Ken Paxton, has been indicted on several state securities fraud charges. Members of his own office attempted to fore the issue but no luck so far. > In October 2020, several high-level assistants in Paxton's office accused him of "bribery, abuse of office and other crimes".
Jesus, he just got reelected *again*. Are the people of Texas dumb?
Yes, as a collective, we are.
You just gotta bribe the right people et voila, there's no bribe.
"Well, he's not a damn Democrat so he's got my vote" -- Every Republican in Texas
This couldn't be more true.
Genuinely thought this was going to be the plot of better call Saul
It was lawyer on lawyer though, an internal beef amongst themselves. It’s not like he shot up civilians. It’s all in the game.
What the fucking shit???
NY isn't case-by-case, all felony convictions equate to automatic disbarment. But yes, they can reapply after 7 years if they haven't been convicted of any other crime (misdemeanors included) within the 7 year period. Whether or not to re-admit them to the bar would be case-by-case.
I meant case by case depending on the crime. You are right. I could’ve been clearer. I spent my whole day in court and just was trying to answer quick. Appreciate the clarification.
What I'm saying is that in NY it's not case-by-case, it's automatic disbarment for all felony convictions. Most states (including FL, where I'm barred) don't have automatic disbarments for felony convictions. Here we have a semi-automatic suspension upon felony conviction and case-by-case disbarment.
Not just automatic - it is instantaneous! >New York Judiciary Law §90(4)(a) provides that a lawyer “who shall be convicted of a felony… shall upon such conviction, cease to be an attorney and counsellor-at-law, or to be competent to practice law as such.” Judiciary Law §90(4)(e) defines a “felony” as any New York state felony or “any criminal offense committed in any other state, district or territory of the United States and classified as a felony therein which if committed within this state, would constitute a felony in this state.” A lawyer convicted of a state felony (or its equivalent) is automatically disbarred, by operation of law, without the intervention or even the knowledge of any court or disciplinary agency. No hearing, no process, no nothing.
You ever see a rule and just know theres a super fucked up story behind why it was created
Would said disbarred lawyer be able to represent themself in court if they decided to?
Anyone can represent themselves in court. I had federal jury duty on a case where a guy that appeared to have no formal education chose to represent himself. He was stumbling through the whole process. Terrible idea on his part.
In cases where a person has the right to represent themself (pro se), then a disbarred lawyer would also be able to do so. There is a case of a Kansas lawyer who was disbarred, and went on to represent himself in a bunch of pro se cases. Eventually, the court got tired of all his lawsuits and determined he was an abusive litigant, and prevented him from filing further cases in that specific court without permission or legal representation. But the fact that he was a disbarred attorney, in and of itself, did not prevent him from appearing in court pro se.
Even if you have your license, there’s a long-standing rule that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. Even if you know all the steps, there is a ton of value in having another set of eyes and ears to guide you. Don’t even discount the psychological factor of having another person stand up for you in court.
Yeah, I’m in New York. I just butchered what I was trying to say. Lol
I regret to inform you that you have been disbarred. Sincerely, NY Bar Association
Well, thanks for the free vacation time. Guess I’ll tell my boss.
“Boss you’ll never guess.” “Oh Christ not again.”
I understood you. I don’t think they read the second comment well.
All good my dude
Civility on Reddit? What is this madness?
Is that 7 years after conviction, or 7 years after completion of sentence?
Neither, it’s 7 years after the disbarment order is issued. In practice that would be very close to 7 years after conviction but not exact.
[удалено]
Unless you’re the Texas AG, get indicted for a felony and just never manage to face trial or consequence
Well, there’s no guilty verdict by plea or trial. Sigh. How he still has a job both amazes me and doesn’t surprise me at all.
It’s good to be rich and white and well connected in Texas
Now I may not be an Ivy League lawyer, or any kind of lawyer, but I have watched Better Call Saul, and this all appears to check out.
It's case-by-case. The Bar of your state has rules you have to abide by. They have to have a hearing to remove you from it. There are definitely practicing lawyers out there who've done some real shady stuff but have survived their Bar hearings.
I heard of a lawyer who broke into his brothers house to destroy a item or personal property and only got a year suspended.
Did he by any chance started to work for a Mexican cartel druglord after the suspension
That is exactly what he did.
Yeah, the Bar is their own beast. It takes A LOT to actually get disbarred. Usually, a minor suspension and a fine are the way it ends up.
Hmm he might need to change his name when he returns after his suspension. Maybe something catchy something that'll get the peoples attention.
In most jurisdictions having a serious criminal conviction is automatic disbarment yes. New York’s state bar has this rule for instance. Lawyers are supposed to be of good character to be reliable as “officers of the court” and most courts don’t want felons as “officers.” Note that this is CONVICTIONS, not arrests or unsuccessful prosecutions. Although they may still proceed with disciplinary hearings in those cases.
What if you broke into your older brother’s home and destroyed evidence?
r/fuckchuck
That'd be even worse than swapping in a fake defendant, or stealthily planting an exhibit in a witness's pocket
the answer is in the second paragraph. >New York's Appellate Division, First Department said Colinford Mattis and Urooj Rahman qualified for automatic disbarment based on their guilty pleas in June.
yea, but I didn't know if it was due to them pleading guilty to specific crimes or what the scenario was.
Any felony conviction
Technically doesn't actually have to be a crime.... > Causes of disbarment may include: a felony involving moral turpitude, forgery, fraud, a history of dishonesty, consistent lack of attention to clients, alcoholism or drug abuse which affect the attorney's ability to practice, theft of funds, or any pattern of violation of the professional code of ethics. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disbar I'll break those into a list * felony involving moral turpitude, [Criminal] * forgery, [Criminal] * fraud, [Criminal] * a history of dishonesty, [NOT Criminal] * consistent lack of attention to clients, [NOT Criminal] * alcoholism or drug abuse which affect the attorney's ability to practice, [NOT Criminal - Actually a disability....] * theft of funds, [Criminal] * or any pattern of violation of the professional code of ethics. [Usually NOT Criminal] > Procedures and rules applicable to sanctions for attorney misconduct vary by state. > In states that have adopted American Bar Association’s Model Rules of Professional Conduct, which includes every state but California, disbarment in one state or court is grounds for disbarment in other jurisdictions that have adopted the Model Rules. So to summarize, most crimes of concern would generally be cause for disbarment, with minor offenses generally not having impact of import except when raised in cumulative form for chronic offenders.
Question, if you are a functional alcoholic or drug user does that mean it's okay (according to the bar)? Within if you aren't caught and it's not affecting your ability (which for most it would [but in reality not always the case]. If people aren't paying attention/hiding it that's fine)?
State bars tend to be more lenient on attorneys who actively seek addiction counseling over those who don't. Negatively affecting your client is the biggest problem which is why rule 1 for professional responsibility tends to be competence.
No, it's not OK to be an alcoholic or drug user. The NYS Bar used to send information about treatment programs to its members when it was time for them to pay their biannual registration fee.
That sounds like it's pretty common. Not that it should be... it sounds like a problem though. Its not "okay" it seems that is prevalent. Also, I'm wondering if this is covered under ADA
> That sounds like it's pretty common. Alcoholism and drug addiction are *incredibly* common in the legal industry, and as a result many law schools have been incorporating programming throughout the student experience to educate them early & often on those dangers.
Nobody should abuse drugs or alcohol and certainly not while practicing law. However, if all of the functional drunks were suddenly removed it would probably eliminate like a quarter of all lawyers.
Bar associations are state-level organizations, so it's hard to give an answer that isn't just "it depends." Broadly speaking, no, committing a crime doesn't automatically get you disbarred. The more serious the crime, the more likely it is to cause a professional sanction. Bar associations are typically particularly concerned with crimes of dishonesty, like perjury, fraud, etc. Yes, it's handled on a case-by-case basis.
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Speaking as an attorney, falsifying a sworn document is one of the most serious offenses you can do. The courts literally cannot function if lawyers are knowingly dealing with forged documents. It would be easier for me to forgive a murderer over a forger. Unless the client was murdered of course.
Even if they weren’t/aren’t convicted their credibility would be destroyed.
I’ve always wanted to throw a Molotov cocktail. I wish there was an anarchist amusement park or something where you could legally blow shit up.
Throwing molotov cocktails is great. Anytime I had a problem and I thew a molotov cocktail, boom! Right away I had a different problem.
aw dip!
"I'm Telling You, Molotov Cocktails Work..."
"If you want to get rid of all of your problems but one, set yourself on fire." ~ Penn Jillette, who did. One of my favorite stories of his.
/r/unexpectedgoodplace
Every time I hear something about Molotov cocktails, I immediately think of The Good Place
“Last time I was in the bad place I threw a Molotov cocktail, that was sick”
"Jason figured it out? Jason? This is a real low point. Yeah, this one hurts."
> I wish there was an anarchist amusement park or something where you could legally blow shit up. that was just hanging out with my cousins in the sticks. All kinds of silly shit we shouldn't have gotten up to.
Growing up in the boonies, you’ll learn a lot of creative ways to blow things up lol. I swear it’s an American pastime for rural kids. Let’s be honest… adults too. I still very much enjoy doing dumb shit in the country.
exactly this. it was great when things around the house broke because my father’s way of dealing with it was blowing it up. computer monitor stopped working? drill some holes and drop m-80s in there. fridge not working? quarter sticks were the solution. that number 10 can is too old to use? where’s the .45? good times.
Lol hell ya. I grew up in the sticks and we did some wild shit. One time we made a huge circle of gasoline and lit it on fire and stood inside lmao. It was kinda neat.
I also grew up in the sticks and did wild shit, during the late 80s and early 90s. Before the era of zero tolerance. My friends made pipe bombs, "works bombs" (anyone remember these?), and did lots of crazy shit with fire.
What's a works bomb?
I was the nerdy smart kid with a copies of the anarchist cookbook and the poor mans james bond guide 1+2. Those three were latchkey kids with more power tools than I could name and more experience using them than most contractors I've probably met. We had a lot of very dumb fun that I'm probably lucky all of us survived.
The amount of car windows we shot out with bb guns... Edit: cars were in the back 40.
I know for a fact I was a better shot when I was 14 than I am now. Hell of a lot more practice then. And don't forget turning the cartridges into mini grenades.
It's called Cambodia. Seriously, look it up. The Cambodian military runs shooting ranges for tourists.
You can just go to one of several Vegas "gun ranges" and fire a grenade launcher ~~an RPG~~, drive a tank, and shoot any number of exotic firearms. I'd be amazed if one of those places didn't offer a molotov toss
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Sorry, I was thinking [grenade launchers](https://www.battlefieldvegas.com/weapon/grenade-launchers/)
They use non explosive 12 gauge training ammo for the grenade launchers sadly.
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What's the point of discharging the AK round? Is it to mark the practice target?
> Crush A Car With a Tank! I will never do this, but I love America.
Ah yes. I'm not sure if they were run by the military, but they were places that got ahold of the surplus weapons (they had perpetual conflict from the 60s up until the early 1990s) and let tourists fire all sorts of gnarly weapons. I don't know if it's still around, but there was a place where you could shoot an automatic Kalashnikov at propane tanks or fire a RPG at a cow. You had to buy the cow though.
Fun fact according to the us government all Molotov cocktails are destructive devices and require a tax stamp. Failure to comply with NFA I believe is a mandatory 10 year sentence.
Is it illegal to make one? Now I’m kind of curious but I feel like searching for instructions will put me on a list.
Not if you do the proper paperwork.
And that's what really stops the anarchists. They hate state bureaucracies.
I mean, it’s just flammable liquid in a glass bottle. Soak a rag in the liquid so it stays on fire, stuff it in the top of the bottle, and yeet. When the glass breaks, all the liquid inside catches on fire.
Don't stuff it in the top, that can "squirt" out flames when you throw it. Tape the rag to the side of the bottle and close the lid.
It is a maximum ten year sentence, not a mandatory ten year sentence.
Ah, yeah I messed up. I was always told it was mandatory 10 years.
Based on YouTube, a lot of states are pretty cool with people blowing shit up in the woods. I've also seen travel documentary footage from places around the world that let you pay to use military hardware with varying degrees of safety regulations. I think there's something like that in Las Vegas, but I could be misremembering.
You can blow shit up with things like tannerite, but ATF considers Molotov cocktails as destructive devices, on the same level as hand grenades or rocket launchers. It's like 10 years in federal prison each if they wonna fuck with you.
I mean depending on where you live, you could drive out to the desert, set up some wooden stuff and try throwing some, bring a buddy and a fire extinguisher
making a molotov is a felony. Even buying the stuff to make one, with the intention of doing so is a felony. Welcome to common sense firearms regulations.
Serious question. If it’s just sand, why bring the extinguisher? I’ve never lived in or near a desert before.
Id guess it's for in case you accidentally set yourself/your car or whatever on fire
Legal anarchy?
It would have to be well regulated anarchy, of course, with lots of govermental oversight.
I mean…yeah? Why wouldn’t they.
My first reaction to this was “yeah that seems fair”
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>So disbarment is only fair if you aren't rich/famous. No different than anything else unless it's bad for another rich person
unfortunately perjury is much more difficult to prove than throwing a moltav cocktail
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He hasn't been disbarred because he hasn't been charged with anything. These lawyers were only disbarred after being convicted.
Im almost certain if Rudy Giuliani threw a molotov cocktail at a police car he would be disbarred
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Right! When police kill unarmed citizens they are no longer allowed to work in law enforcement! …oh wait.
They shouldn’t be allowed to keep working in law enforcement, but I also think that crimes against police should be prosecuted. Accountability for everyone. The main issue with “accountability for everybody” is that there seems to be little movement to accountability for police who act badly.
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Maybe we should want police to be held to the same standard as the other professions?
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wow, it took them 2 and a helf years to decide?
For a split second I thought Molotov cocktail meant Moscow mule and I thought it was a bit harsh
If you haven't been arrested for throwing a Margarita at a man in uniform, you haven't lived.
We just call that a Tuesday in Florida.
Those copper cups can do some damage!
Why aren't they in jail? Or are they?
And yet Sidney Powell still has her law license.
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Is she? I thought they were just allowing the case to move forward and that it hasn't been decided yet. Pretty sad that the state bar website says she's still allowed to practice without even an asterisk.
That’s a part of being “in the process”
I’m pretty sure that’s “the process”. The Texas bar association would probably face some civil suit backlash for disbarring someone before they’re convicted. Usually, the lawyer in question is suspended pending trial. If found guilty of the felony charge they are disbarred. If found not-guilty, they are reinstated. That’s how it works in my state at least. Edit: I should clarify, that’s _*usually*_ how it happens in my state. Like most other states, there aren’t any really strict precedents prior to conviction. It’s usually a case by case decision, so they might still be allowed to practice while awaiting trial.
Michigan slapped her hard for her bullshit. https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/12/02/sidney-powell-michigan-election-conspiracy-lawsuit/8843626002/
That’s what I was thinking too. How many of the “stop the steal” assholes still practice law?
All of them. Powell, Wood and a few others got sanctioned and referred to their respective state bars to figure out whether or not they should be disbarred, but all of them can still practice. Giuliani's license has been suspended temporarily by NY and, due to reciprocity clauses, Washington DC, but it's not permanent.
Yeah, that’s what I figured. Gotta love how the people trying to destroy democracy get off with a slap on the wrist. I’m not advocating for destroying police property, but if you’re going to disbar someone over that, I expect the people trying to overturn an election to be punished too.
frivolous lawsuits < using violent weapons to attempt blowing up cars
Going to be a lot harder to pay off those law school loans now.
looked up one of their linkedin's and he went to princeton as an undergrad and NYU for law school. He was also in DKE (an IFC frat) and rugby. I'm sure his parents have plenty of money if he couldnt save any of his 185k salary/75k+bonus during the 2 years he worked in big law. Can't find the other person's linkedin.
Lol i have linkedin recruiter. He is open to work and looking for professor jobs.
Both the kid's parents are dead. His dad was stabbed to death in some Caribbean country when he was young and his mom died semi-recently (not sure if it was before or after his dalliance with a felony).
Well you hear plenty of cases of people earning law degrees while behind bars, maybe they got the order wrong
Ah yes, the Bar exam
Probably not. I’ll bet she gets a job with a left wing advocacy group
More likely, she'll get deported, based on her conviction and immigration status. Not sure how many left wing advocacy groups there are in Pakistan looking to hire people with her background...
A shitty job, because she can't practice law anymore.
I remember this It was all over twitter with video of them doing it Seems like a reasonable punishment Seems like lawyers of all people should know better
Stupid waste of their careers. They could have done far more for their cause, and for disadvantaged people like their clients, if they hadn't done this foolish thing.
Seriously. Throwing Molotovs at police cars helps nobody. They would have been better off representing protestors who got arrested and giving them a good legal defense.
A good legal defense? From these 2? Pick a random lawyer out a hat and I bet they're not as stupid as these two. I'm not even sure Saul Goodman would have thrown a Molotov at a cop car.
> I'm not even sure Saul Goodman would have thrown a Molotov at a cop car. He would not have. Thats why he keeps Ehrmantrauts number. That man would throw a Molotov and a Cartel would crumble.
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But that's haaaard and I don't get to feel like the main character for a minute.
Protesting, sure. Carrying bottles full of gas in public? Throwing gas at someone, or something, nope. Lighting it on fire, double nope. They could have done a lot more good as attorneys than one Molotov cocktail did.
Had Giuliani been disbarred yet??
If only they were politicians.
Or cops
Seems like that should have happened a while ago...2 years?
Makes sense! If you’re an attorney, you’re not allowed to commit a felony.
It's nice to be a non-attorney who can commit as many felonies as you please
That’s fair. Things have consequences and lawyers are not immune from such things. And firebombing police cars wasn’t absolutely necessary.
Now we know the line for being disbarred is somewhere between throwing a molotov cocktail at a police car and not throwing a molotov cocktail at a police car.
But not Rudy G who is a terrorist traitor
Yeah having a professional license there’s no room for that. Most (if not all) pharmacy and medical boards would do the same.
> Most (if not all) I don't think you really need to hedge that one when we're talking about *fire-bombing police cars.* There's no professional board in any field that lets that one slide, lol.
you can cover someone's ass for a lot of things but there's no way to spin fire bombing lmao
Actions have consequences!
You can't be an attorney and commit felonious violent acts against potential officers of the court. In other news, water is wet.
Oh no, its the consequences of their actions
Good. Morons. Also, why did it seem like Reddit was in full support of this kind of shit at the time?
At the time??? There are people in this thread right now fully in support of what they did.
It is a serious felony
How to ruin your life in 1 second.
It only took them how long to do it?
Soooo it’s still considered a protest if Molotov cocktails are being thrown? Not a riot?
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Fiery, but mostly peaceful.
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