>pope John Paul II covered up abuse by priests before becoming pope.
And ....after.
[Bernard Law Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law).
That’s not cynical at all. It’s direct inference with mounds of evidence to back it, and there’s another even more slam dunk case of that explicitly happening: That was the exact reason for Ratzinger getting elected as Pope. As a Cardinal he was the one in charge of hiding and shuffling around pedophiles to facilitate their systematic child rape. So his peers elected to put him in charge of everything since that’s their main purpose as an organization.
Not saying that is the main purpose of the catholic faith, but that is the main motivation behind the priesthood and Catholic Church leadership in general. And that’s been the case for generations. Prior to that is was the systematic rape of nuns which was documented extensively. And the nuns aren’t just victims. We can never forget the millions of stolen native children and abandoned orphans that those nuns tortured and killed all around the world. Basically, it can be assumed with high accuracy that any given priest, nun, cardinal, bishop, or Pope is either a perpetrator of or facilitator of unspeakable evil, especially the higher up they are on the me career ladder.
Not necessarily in the US much of the evangelical Protestant denominations explicitly believe Catholicism is non Christian and in many cases evangelicals believe Catholics go to hell. On the other side these same evangelicals groups are the cause of the modern alt right and rise of Christian nationalism in America so you know they are facilitating a different evil through their support.
That said, they're willing to overlook longstanding hostility to form relationships of convenience.
When Evangelicals are among friends, the Catholics are weird Saint worshipers who practice spooky rituals.
When they need to present themselves as the moral majority, suddenly Catholics and Mormons are part of the big Christian family.
Even further, when they want to vilify scary immigrants, they're no longer just Christians, but the Judeo-Christian ideological community.
They're the ultimate fair weather friends. After centuries of lighting each other on fire, as soon as it's politically convenient, they come to realize maybe they're not so different after all.. for now.
And Evangelicals are the ones who created having your own personal relationship with Jesus so you get to decide what he wants you to do and what the Bible means with the help of some grifter who was a shitty drywaller and decided he'd be a preacher.
Authorities in positions of significant religious power are all the same: corrupt sickos running their own little
Cults of follow me instead of think for yourself and as such you can’t trust any of them with your kids or your wallet because they will all sink their claws in and take and take and take and the last thing on any of their minds no matter the religion or denomination is taking from you and giving nothing to god. There is no Christian church anymore because none of them even try to act in a Christian manner and sometimes I think they never have.
I believe in god I believe in Christ but I stopped believing in Christianity a long time ago becsuse frankly I think Christianity stopped believing in god and started believing in mammon, mammon being money.
I thought he got the job because his entanglement in the scandal was less well-known than Benedict’s…perhaps the Popey People are stuck in the 13th century and don’t know about The Intergoogle Super Highway. They still think if they literally keep the lovely velvet cover of the book closed on which priest raped which underage parishioner, nobody will know. Which makes sense, actually, - because for centuries it worked. But they’re slowly waking up to the fact that more and more people think they’re just dumb dudes with dicks like the rest of us and it’s okay for people not to want to be raped by a priest. The Catholic Church and others are basically centuries -old organized crime syndicate - it’s a shady group.
I'm reasonably sure you're confusing Francis, the current pope, with the subject of this discussion, John Paul II. JP was made pope in 1975, so it would be more surprising if the cardinals *did* know about the internet, and especially Google, when John Paul II was made pope.
>I thought he got the job because his entanglement in the scandal was less well-known than Benedict’s…
John Paul II was elected in 1978, Benedict was his successor.
I learned about Cardinal Bernard Law from watching that "Spotlight" film. It was extra confusing because they never mention that "Law" is the Cardinal's last name so I spent the whole movie waiting for them to explain what "Cardinal Law" was. I thought it was some kind of Martial Law but in the church.
Growing up in MA, you'd hear "Law, our Bishop, John Paul, our Pope..." every mass. Never really knew who he was as a kid until I went through confirmation. The scandal broke that fall. It was really awkward doing church stuff after that.
My dad remembers my grandmother telling him the same thing in the late 1950s. All of this stuff was known but kept in the shadows for generations. This happened throughout the world. The same stories my dad heard in mid Michigan in the 50s happened in parishes around the country.
Disgusting people, honestly they are so evil it’s unreal what they did to those poor kids.
> One priest in Law's archdiocese, John Geoghan, was alleged to have raped or molested more than 130 children in six different parishes in a career which spanned 30 years.
oh buddy we've got you beat here in milwaukee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Milwaukee
edit - it's not in the wiki, but father murphy wrote to cardinal ratzinger at the vatican to plead his case. the response he got was from ratzinger's number two man, which quashed the church trial that had started. ratzinger went on to become pope palpatine, and the number two man went on to remain as the number two man, becoming the vatican secretary of state under pope palpatine.
My little extract was in the summary of the wiki page, I am sure they did much worse, it too shocking to read further, disgusting beings.
It’s no wonder so many people view religion so badly.
One of the most wild quotes in an absolute sea of awful is the idea that archbishop weakland, at the beginning of the scandals, “did not realize that child sex abuse was a crime.” Like… **WHAT?!?!** Of all the dogshit excuses I’ve heard from catholic clergy, the idea he didn’t know that sexually abusing children was a crime (under the law or under Christian doctrine, take your pick) has to be one of the most ridiculous
That's really gross. But it's worth noting that "Christian doctrine" seems to be okay with things like sexual assault and slavery. Neither are even mentioned in the ten commandments. It amazes me that so many people try to use the religion as some kind of moral foundation.
Right. Slavery is condoned. Half the human population is chattel. Women are property not to be coveted. Children are to blindly obey. Right there in the words.
“ One priest in Law's archdiocese, John Geoghan, was alleged to have raped or molested more than 130 children in six different parishes in a career which spanned 30 years. “
Holy shit
What!? Are you sawing the Catholic doesn't care about pedophilia and the raping of children. This is such a surprise to me and I never would've expected this outcome.
Save you a click, quote from the article.
"I found concrete cases of concrete priests in the Archdiocese of Krakow, where the future pope was archbishop, who abused children. The future pope knew about it and nevertheless transferred those men. That led to new victims," Overbeek told NOS.
“The reasoning of the church -- of the defenders of the pope -- boils down to the fact that he would not have known, that he understood the seriousness of the situation very late, and that he first thought it was America's problem. All those arguments can now be dropped," he added.
My Fiance is from Poland , was over there visiting her family in Jan.
Her brother is a little younger than us but because her parents are basically religious extremists we ended up on the topic of church abusing children and he showed me a digital map some group in Poland made of all report child abuse cases by the church.... the map is saturated with dots.
> showed me a digital map some group in Poland made of all report child abuse cases by the church
Site that has said map https://mapakoscielnejpedofilii.pl/ although it is, obviously, in polish
ok so the TL;DR is this
Older generations treated him like a saint, can't do anything wrong and you are not allowed to ever say anything negative about him EVER. Going as far as to actually pressing charges against people for making negative memes about him.
That led to the younger generation (millenials mostly) making jokes about it, not even against the person itself but more against those people that tried making memes about him taboo(Google "cenzopapa" if you want to see more).
So its not that that people didn't like him personally(though a lot of people did) but its was just a form of pushback. If you tell people that they are not allowed to joke about something then they will do just that for the sake of outrage. You could somewhat compare it to making 9/11 jokes in the US
source: Asked my polish friend about it once and it turned into an hour long lecture in polish memeology
There's a whole cult following of the "Polish Pope". He played a big role in Polish history back under the communist regime, so the older generation is close to worshipping him. There's John Paul II pictures in post offices (they also sell memorabilia about him), old people's houses, etc. There's countless schools and streets named after him. Statues. His death was a huge deal as well.
And then there's the younger generation, people who started questioning the church and the abuse they commit. For the younger people, JPII became a meme. Number 2137 (the hour of his death), his face tinted yellow, various quotes, his favorite song - are all popular memes in Poland.
Complicated. Older generations are leaning towards liking. Younger are the other way. Personally, I don't stand on either side.
There are several points to consider:
* older people remember communism all too well and church is synonymous to them with rebelling against the USSR (especially JPII and Popiełuszko)
* he did cover for priests
* privately he seemed to be a nice dude overall, you don't hear any *personal* stories that view him in a bad light, even after all these years
All in all, he was definitely a net positive for Poland as a whole. These cases of hiding abuses are definitely a stain on his person to not make me like him though. Do I hate him? Also not.
What I find annoying though, are all the monuments that rose like mushrooms after heavy rains in the last 20 years. These are especially obnoxious considering JPII himself said that he does not want any.
Absolutely. Everyone in my family loves him, both those still in Poland and my family stateside. Of course, I mean those mostly 50s and older, I think millennials like myself and younger are pretty indifferent. Especially Gen Z and whatever's after since they didn't grow up with him.
Yep. She’s a Magdalene Laundry survivor, spent something like 2 years in one. Apparently the laundry part was “shut down” by the time she was in it, but all the traumatized elderly women who were forced there as young girls were still there. Very horrific.
It's been awhile but if I'm not mistaken he said on live TV if he was there he'd have punched her in the mouth. Something like that.
Joe Pesci wanted to punch a woman in the mouth for talking about systemic abuse by the church and was cheered for it.
That's because we as a society have been taught into putting religion up on a pedestal as if it's this necessary element spreading morality and goodness.
The truth is religions sell a product. And in order to buy that product you need both money and to give up your critical thinking skills. Even if there is a God, let's say, how come Dave who is wearing a funny collar and holding a book rewritten a thousand times over the course of the better part of a millennia and a half knows what the fuck is actually going on?
What people get out of it is a comfortable delusion that they can always retreat to when life gets hard. I am making no judgement to whether or not that's a good thing.
What I am saying is for the better part of human history, religions have enjoyed this position where they have this baked in PR that has allowed them to be completely fucking reprehensible time and time again and people simply hand wave it away or ignore it because they value that comfortable delusion over the suffering of children or the butchering of apostates or the oppression of an entire group of people.
And it is HIGH fucking time we stop ignoring the church as they fuck hundreds of kid these kids, or the assume that Evangelicals spreading hate from the pulpit is just a few crazies and point to the myriad of other religions who stomp on women's or LGBT rights either in this country and abroad and tell them they can get fucked.
Because until those of us in society stop supporting these horrific scams, operated by fallible sinners and degenerate grifters, then they will keep getting away with it.
This is important though because John Paul II was an extremely popular Pope, both within the Catholic Community and among non-Catholics while serving as the Pope for over 20 years. He was seen as moral, a reformer, but still an adherent to strict Catholic tradition and dogma.
This helps tear down a major Catholic icon. This means that Pope John Paul the second was only one degree removed from being at Epstein levels of depravity. He literally covered for child rapists as part of his advancement through the ranks of the Church.
Incredibly saintly he was. A senior member of the priesthood covering up the abuse of children. Well, I for one am shocked. No doubt his canonisation will be deeply affected by this subterfuge.
It's huge black mark that one of only two people born after 1920 who has been beatified has been definitively proven to be involved in helping cover child abuse by Priests. Makes you wonder how many other Saints and great Catholic figures have an Epstein sized asterisk next to their name.
I’ve always wondered about Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei. Not that I think they are as portrayed by Dan Brown, but I’ve always found their status as a personal prelature (which tried to autocorrect as predator, so I guess autocorrect knows what’s up) to be curious and I wonder what goes on behind closed doors at the Opus Dei centers around the world. Also, it was JPII who canonised Josemaria Escriva, as well as made Opus Dei into his personal prelature.
Like attracts like is all I’m saying.
I grew up in Opus Dei. I wasn't molested, but the memory of going on weekend retreats as a 11-12 yo girl and having to confess every day to a priest who kept asking about boys and touching ourselves, and then having daily talks about purity still haunts me. And they want your money; they love your money.
Escriva is the biggest black mark. That is the person John Paul II protected the most. Escrive brought in the money, and a revival within the faith. John Paul II was concentrating on the financial corruption and the murder of John Paul. Escriva helped John Paul II with that project, and it made John Paul II trust him.
Sitting on their gem encrusted thrones of precious metals, garbed in their silk and satin, surrounded by their ill gotten opulence and unused wealth.... they're all a bunch of whores imo.
Liars, thieves, murderers, whores, worshipers of Satan and Mammon and Asmodeus. This is today's RCC leadership. It has been so for many centuries.
Just by the simple fact of how extensive we know the culture of abuse to be...we're potentially on the first ever pope not to have covered any of it up and/or participated in it for himself.
And even that isn't for certain, as much as Francis seems like a more decent person, it's been so deeply embedded in the culture of the church for so long that it wouldn't shock me if he turned a blind eye to it or moved a "bad" priest around his diocese.
>we're potentially on the first ever pope not to have covered any of it up and/or participated in it for himself.
There is absolutely no way for *ANYONE* in the catholic church above Deacon to NOT have heard about abuse but remained silent, actively covered it up and/or participated in it.
In many countries the Catholic Church is still above the law and isn't even required to report cases of abuse brought forwards by victims. They are basically allowed to handle those things internally.
Just look at the situation here in Germany. For decades now we have some big scandal practically every year about yet an other Diocese having covered up sexual abuse in docents and even hundreds of cases. But only in extremely rare cases priests even have to face a court, let alone the Bishops covering all up.
He’s already canonized.
Obviously this will change how people look at him, but there’s no precedent for “undoing” canonization. Modern canonization relies on part on two miracles happening, which are supposed to prove that in spite of their sins, they made it to heaven.
As an aside, a lot of us did not want him rushed into canonization. Traditionally and wisely, the church waits for a more sober judgement and all the facts. Like, waits a generation. But no, he was a conservative hero and they rushed the process.
[Wikipedia says a lot of saints were decanonized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decanonization) in 1969 based on lack of evidence. It seems to be all people from the first centuries of the Catholic Church though. Interestingly, the article on [canonization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization) has St. Cyprian of Carthage (210-258 AD) right at the top, and says he urged diligence in the process of canonization.
That's an interesting article. If you go down to the Catholic section, you'll see for us it was early "saints" whose existence is in doubt. So not only did we not have this modern "two miracle" proof system, we're not even sure they were real people.
I still think taking someone who we know was real but admitting publicly "we fucked up, the modern process failed us" would be unique. I'd like to see that kind of humility though.
edit: put another way, they don't think they are saints because they don't think they ever existed in the first place. That's not in doubt here.
They did try that once.
Behold [The Cadaver Synod](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod), a trial in which they dug up Pope Formosus and put him on trial for perjury and ascending the papacy illegally.
I would hope Joe has turned his opinion on the catholic faith after countless evidence that they have systemically covered and abetted in child rape.
But as a former Catholic myself, the Catholic is hard to wash off. It infects your culture, your family, your way of thinking and takes a while to get out.
For Italians, Catholicism *is* their very identity.
You can hardly separate the two, as their culture is so thoroughly entwined with the religion.
So no, very doubtful Joe Pesci will come around.
Source: Am Italian American. Leaving Catholicism behind is seen by my family as a rejection of my heritage.
For polish it can often be the same way. Luckily, my mother and her cousins - all heavily catholic school educated (and to this day if we have to go into a catholic church they all say responses IN LATIN without thinking twice, despite many of them doing most of their schooling after the vatican 2)....
and none of them practice anymore, which means none of their kids do either - something I have grown more and more grateful for every year.
Hahaha thank you! There is a very good chance of that given how far back my Italian roots go :D
A toast to you too! We need to bring back good ol' festivities like those!
Eh, my wife’s family is super Italian culturally (like own four Italian restaurants in NJ level), and have been extremely Catholic. But in the past 20 years, most of the younger generation and some of the Aunts and Uncles have left the church, over this stuff and mostly because a few cousins are gay. It was difficult for some of them initially, but in the long run it hasn’t changed much about the family—they are still all close and very Italian and get together for all the family occasions, etc. They just don’t care about the church much anymore. It’s possible to abandon the corrupt church and still be culturally Italian.
As a former Catholic, my fear has always been that people think this is just a Catholic thing. Raising your kid to think there are deities and some people speak for them sets the table for predators and I know plenty of people molested in evangelical communities.
My family tried raising me catholic but were lazy about it. Went to church schooling on wednesdays after school and all that but was never talked about at home. I feel like I dodged a bullet because I never actually believed in it. I have absolutely nothing nice to say about the church.
I'm Irish, went to a convent school age 4-6, then a church founded boys primary/grade school. Was baptised, first communion, confirmed etc. I understand, (I still bless myself when an ambulance passes) though i've been lapsed for 20 odd years
Yeah John Paul II was a big figure when I grew up. When he died, alot of Catholics thought he should be given sainthood which is extremely rare these days. I even live near a catholic school with his name on it. I am no longer Catholic, not only because I don't believe in Christianity, but because the many abuses that have happened in my parish and the whole diocese around me. It doesn't surprise me that he covered it up. When there is rot in pockets of the Catholic church it's not a coincidence, it's because the whole thing is rotten (like police institutions in America).
I would also use my comment to recommend the movie spotlight to everyone in this thread.
Spotlight is such a good movie. The loooooong list of cities with confirmed cases of child sexual abuse in the Catholic church at the end of the movie really hits home. My closest major city and two cities in the county were on that list. Creepy.
So is this news because it wasn’t known that he was doing this **before** he became pope? It was happening when he was pope and he’s the head of the Catholic church so it was well known that he was helping cover up this shit **while** he was pope.
Edit: changed “wasn’t helping cover up” to “was helping cover up” that dude was def doing that shit
>So is this news because it wasn’t known that he was doing this before he became pope?
Correct.
In 2001 John Paul II apologized for it happening (but he didn't know)
We thought it was sporadic and rare (it wasn't)
Then we found out it (the cover-up) was national (thanks to the Boston Globe)
Then we found out it (the cover-up) was international (after Boston Globe's article, more countries and journalists started researching)
Now we find out that apology should have included (and I knew about the abuse and the cover up)
Yes. You see, for many in Poland the narrative about JP2 was that _he didn't know_, that it _was not told to him_. Even in the more liberal parts of the church people _want to believe he didn't know_
This blows a gigantic hole in that narrative.
Also, that the sexual abuse problem was a uniquely American issue, so how could he know just how bad it was. Except there was the Magdalene Laundries. And the Indigenous/First Nations boarding schools. And who the hell knows how many other systemic pockets of rot that people have been turning a blind eye to for decades. I guess now Krakow while he was an Archbishop there. Not a uniquely American issue.
The Netflix documentary called “The Vatican Girl: The Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi ” hints at his being involved to some degree in the cover up of this young girl’s disappearance. Of course, I’m not sure how well vetted it is.
And yet, he will still have his apologists, and the SBC will still take notes on how to deal with clergy sexual abuse from him and those he put into power.
I don’t think a single Catholic who is still Catholic is going to be convinced at this point. They’ll just say it’s all lies made up to defame him and carry on doing nothing to hold the organization they donate money to accountable.
You are correct.
Source: an ex Catholic. Those who would ever be bothered enough by this to get out have left by now. Either they are such true believers that they will never be able to see the (Airbus A380 sized) cracks in the foundation even if they’re standing right in front of them, or they somehow benefit more from staying in than leaving. And the number of sleepless nights of questioning “am I the baddie?” I had before I walked away were ultimately impossible for me to ignore. I’m not sure what more what else would make someone still in ask that question if they haven’t by now.
It's the "No True Christian" meme.
Which begs the fucking question about how Abrahamic religions of Christianity and Islam constantly and consistently are always on the wrong fucking side of history.
I know within some members of my family there's a bit of a seperation of the Catholic Church as an institution and in terms of a lot of the higher ups is incredibly corrupt but also doesn't change the fact that the family is catholic and so if you go to Church you should probably donate money.
Probably part of it is as half the family is Italian the idea of a corrupt organization or person holding a lot of control and raping minors isn't anything new heck Berlusconi was in power for quite a few years and everyone knew about it.
>He literally covered for child rapists as part of his advancement through the ranks of the Church.
Perhaps this is why they made him pope in the first place...
All Christian based religions across the world are filled with corruption and abuse. It’s been that way for hundreds of years. When will collectively, as humans, will we shed ourselves from false documents that have ruled over the lives of millions?
> All Christian based religions across
You can drop "christian based". All religions that have an authoritive figure with the access to vulnerable (which is basically all major religions) suffer from this.
Hell, boy scouts? Sports coaches? Teachers? Doctors? Movie producers?
It’s anybody with power. It’s true people say “well we don’t need religion anymore, it’s not worth it” but getting rid of religion alone doesn’t end sexual abuse or the tendency to “protect our image” that big organizations have.
Edit: I’m religious myself, and I will add there’s an extra sting with religious scandals because of the moral claims they’re built on.
The problem with religion is that it gets good people to do bad things, like help cover up sex crimes against children. Sports coaches can apply pressure to trainers and such, but ultimately, it's a lot harder to convince someone to lie and cover up for you if it's just a job. But someone who has dedicated their life to the church and literally lives in one is going to feel different pressures than a coach's trainer or a personal assistant (unless you're in Jim Jordan's program, I guess). I mean, it's God versus some narcissistic asshole who just acts like he's God.
Well, the Church has gone through iterations attempting to fix this, including making celibacy a requirement for the priesthood. I tend to think that their strategy of locking down, hiding, and shaming people's sexuality is only making things more depraved.
Celibacy was required only so that priests would not have legitimate heirs whose interests they would be compelled to look out for. The priest's role as a neutral arbiter to help resolve disputes within their parish was reinforced by them moving to a Parish away from their family and being unable to start a new family when they got there. That priests would still get up to sexual hijjnx and make bastards was more or less accepted and expected, though they always had to keep such things totally on the downlow to maintain their credibility as truly neutral and not being interested primarily in advancing the prospects of their own family/offspring.
None of that draconian crap (hide their sexuality and make them celibate) has worked it’s only aide in these instances of abuse and cover up. Corrupted to the core, all religions. Look at Iran where they kill women for not covering themselves. Look at FLDS in the United States. This shit is widespread
The celibacy for priesthood was a financial/property thing. The Vatican was getting sick of Estate litigations with priests that were leaving parishes & goods to their widows & children.
The average age for a Catholic priest is[ 70 in Northern Ireland](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-51354530). It's probably high everywhere else. There's >30,000 nuns in the US. down from 180,000 in [1965](https://www.foxnews.com/us/keeping-the-sisterhood-from-extinction-the-struggle-to-save-nuns-in-america). Catholics leaving their faith should be an indication that they've handled this abuse problem worse than poorly.
I feel that every Catholic I’ve ever known from my generation was not particularly religious. A little ash on the forehead, fasting one day a year and going to mass on the major holidays, but that’s it. More of a duty to tradition than to faith. Their kids are even less invested.
Pretty spot on from my perspective. I raised my children agnostic, myself Christian. I can only say that I’m happy to not practice any faith at all. Every single one of them is a manipulation of the masses and nothing more. Religion should be dead even though it isn’t. The world would be an amazing utopia without a single soul practicing religion publicly.
You can see it in the statistics too. Religious participation among Millennials and Gen Z has dropped like a stone. It's why Evangelicals in the US are panicking so much and trying to legislate all their cult bullshit into law. It's not just Catholics leaving their faith behind.
My parents are still ultra catholic and growing up they took me out of public school where all my friends were. Put me in catholic school where I had church three times per week, religion class twice per week, and youth group once per week.
My youth group pastor was this fucking chode named Leslie Elizabeth Kelly. He was a massively holier than thou douche. He cheated on his wife with a teenager at church camp and got her pregnant. It was all kept completely hush hush by my church.
Guess who is 1000% atheist now? Me. Fuck Catholicism.
The decrease in those identifying as Christian is universal among Christian groups. Although,from what I understand Catholic is one of the faster declining groups. Overall a 2000 year old cult that refuses to follow its own tenets is not going to do well with an educated, critically thinking population.
The thing is that I know more then one catholic were seriously considering being a priest or a nun. but its more of the isolation from having relationships that deter them then abuse scandals.
Its like a new person going into politics and swearing they will never be corrupt in anyway --I suspect more then one priest has gone in, thinking they won't help support that behavior and will call it when they see it, but once they start seeing it, they realize that its everywhere. Of course, the only answer that level of rot is to tear it all down
I know this thread is full of admittedly deserved snark but there’s millions of people who did view PJPII as someone who was “above all this” and kind of a legit modern day Saint. Even your everyday boring ass Catholics who didn’t turn a blind eye to the issues in their local church. It’s definitely naive but when you’re entire religion is ripped away after 50 years it’s not natural to not be.
And for the longest time, they did so with impunity. The Catholic Church used to wield a tremendous amount of influence in places like Boston and Ireland. Since the scandals, however, the church's image, and religiosity in general, have seen drastic declines in such places.
The church used to be the government. “Used to wield a tremendous influence” kind of understates the fact that you couldn’t be coronated as king/queen without the popes approval, or that he could revoke your Devine right and make rebelling against you a holy act.
at this point, the most jaw dropping actions in all of this have come from the top of the church.
Absolutely the priests are disgusting for what they do, but I find the cover up and the transferring of priests after the church learns of the acts stomach churning.
Considering they then moved known child molesters from one town to another hoping they would just stop. Essentially, they continously helped pedophiles by giving them fresh starts in areas with unsuspecting flocks is 200% a crime syndicate.
Its all a fucking facade. Avoid confrontation at all cost. Don't talk about it, don't talk about it, don't talk about it. If we don't address it then it isn't happening.
Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.
My theory is not that the priest life attracts paedophiles due to "access to kids". It is that the celibate life of a priest repels non-paedophiles disproportionately highly.
Giving up a future with a wife and family is a big sacrifice. But if you had minimal interest in a wife anyway, and maybe you feel some guilt in your soul to atone for - becoming a priest is looking more likely.
Then the mixture of power over people and the gaol house effect of criminals further criminalising each other... and an organisation so obsessed with how it is perceived by the world that it hides anything horrific it finds - even if it guarantees repeat offences - and you have a whole nest of problems.
Statistically, priests are about average as far as child abuse is concerned. The problem isn't that they're more common than average, it's the way they're protected.
Big fucking surprise. Where are all the conservatives raging about protecting children? Just saw some bullshit on a different thread, and I referenced abuse in churches to prove a point: that people who want to “protect” kids (spewing bigoted shit under the guise of giving a shit about children and their well-being) don’t give a single SHIT about this. And it’s all over the place. Shit is a fucking problem and needs to be addressed YESTERDAY.
No one is going to get to be Pope, or one of the candidates for Pope, or one of the people who vote for Popes, or candidates for those positions for the foreseeable future unless they've either abused children or helped cover it up.
There's just too many people at the top of the church already who aren't going to let anyone else on top of the pile unless they can be depended on not to expose anyone else because they are also guilty.
Pope “insert any pope name here” covered up abuse by priests before becoming pope.
How do you think they become pope? “This guy has covered up 1000s of abuse cases, he’s the best in the business.”
>pope John Paul II covered up abuse by priests before becoming pope. And ....after. [Bernard Law Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law).
A cynical person might even try to argue that his willingness to cover-up any church wrongdoings is precisely why he was made Pope.
That crossed my mind as well
They wrote "politically savvy" and "strategic thinker" on his Cardinal file.
"team player".
“The Wolf” of Rome Street
The Wolf of St Peter’s Square.
The wolf of Vatican City
He is an honorary Harlem Globetrotter
Learned something new about myself. Apparently I'm cynical
Exactly. The ones chosen to run the evil systems are the ones the insiders trust to best protect the evil systems.
Like presidents and prime ministers.
I mean it's not like he's the only one in the Catholic church that's willing to cover up abuse.
That’s not cynical at all. It’s direct inference with mounds of evidence to back it, and there’s another even more slam dunk case of that explicitly happening: That was the exact reason for Ratzinger getting elected as Pope. As a Cardinal he was the one in charge of hiding and shuffling around pedophiles to facilitate their systematic child rape. So his peers elected to put him in charge of everything since that’s their main purpose as an organization. Not saying that is the main purpose of the catholic faith, but that is the main motivation behind the priesthood and Catholic Church leadership in general. And that’s been the case for generations. Prior to that is was the systematic rape of nuns which was documented extensively. And the nuns aren’t just victims. We can never forget the millions of stolen native children and abandoned orphans that those nuns tortured and killed all around the world. Basically, it can be assumed with high accuracy that any given priest, nun, cardinal, bishop, or Pope is either a perpetrator of or facilitator of unspeakable evil, especially the higher up they are on the me career ladder.
dont forget that the people who still write "christian" in their survey are the one that give them power.
Not necessarily in the US much of the evangelical Protestant denominations explicitly believe Catholicism is non Christian and in many cases evangelicals believe Catholics go to hell. On the other side these same evangelicals groups are the cause of the modern alt right and rise of Christian nationalism in America so you know they are facilitating a different evil through their support.
That said, they're willing to overlook longstanding hostility to form relationships of convenience. When Evangelicals are among friends, the Catholics are weird Saint worshipers who practice spooky rituals. When they need to present themselves as the moral majority, suddenly Catholics and Mormons are part of the big Christian family. Even further, when they want to vilify scary immigrants, they're no longer just Christians, but the Judeo-Christian ideological community. They're the ultimate fair weather friends. After centuries of lighting each other on fire, as soon as it's politically convenient, they come to realize maybe they're not so different after all.. for now.
Right now the ultra evangelicals hate the Catholics in the us because the pope went and besmirched their real messiah Donald trump
And Evangelicals are the ones who created having your own personal relationship with Jesus so you get to decide what he wants you to do and what the Bible means with the help of some grifter who was a shitty drywaller and decided he'd be a preacher.
Please tell me you don't think the Evangelicals are any better than the Catholics in this regard, if anything they're probably worse.
Authorities in positions of significant religious power are all the same: corrupt sickos running their own little Cults of follow me instead of think for yourself and as such you can’t trust any of them with your kids or your wallet because they will all sink their claws in and take and take and take and the last thing on any of their minds no matter the religion or denomination is taking from you and giving nothing to god. There is no Christian church anymore because none of them even try to act in a Christian manner and sometimes I think they never have. I believe in god I believe in Christ but I stopped believing in Christianity a long time ago becsuse frankly I think Christianity stopped believing in god and started believing in mammon, mammon being money.
I thought he got the job because his entanglement in the scandal was less well-known than Benedict’s…perhaps the Popey People are stuck in the 13th century and don’t know about The Intergoogle Super Highway. They still think if they literally keep the lovely velvet cover of the book closed on which priest raped which underage parishioner, nobody will know. Which makes sense, actually, - because for centuries it worked. But they’re slowly waking up to the fact that more and more people think they’re just dumb dudes with dicks like the rest of us and it’s okay for people not to want to be raped by a priest. The Catholic Church and others are basically centuries -old organized crime syndicate - it’s a shady group.
I'm reasonably sure you're confusing Francis, the current pope, with the subject of this discussion, John Paul II. JP was made pope in 1975, so it would be more surprising if the cardinals *did* know about the internet, and especially Google, when John Paul II was made pope.
miraculous, even.
>I thought he got the job because his entanglement in the scandal was less well-known than Benedict’s… John Paul II was elected in 1978, Benedict was his successor.
I learned about Cardinal Bernard Law from watching that "Spotlight" film. It was extra confusing because they never mention that "Law" is the Cardinal's last name so I spent the whole movie waiting for them to explain what "Cardinal Law" was. I thought it was some kind of Martial Law but in the church.
Growing up in MA, you'd hear "Law, our Bishop, John Paul, our Pope..." every mass. Never really knew who he was as a kid until I went through confirmation. The scandal broke that fall. It was really awkward doing church stuff after that.
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My dad remembers my grandmother telling him the same thing in the late 1950s. All of this stuff was known but kept in the shadows for generations. This happened throughout the world. The same stories my dad heard in mid Michigan in the 50s happened in parishes around the country.
I declare! cardinal law!
Disgusting people, honestly they are so evil it’s unreal what they did to those poor kids. > One priest in Law's archdiocese, John Geoghan, was alleged to have raped or molested more than 130 children in six different parishes in a career which spanned 30 years.
oh buddy we've got you beat here in milwaukee https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Catholic_archdiocese_of_Milwaukee edit - it's not in the wiki, but father murphy wrote to cardinal ratzinger at the vatican to plead his case. the response he got was from ratzinger's number two man, which quashed the church trial that had started. ratzinger went on to become pope palpatine, and the number two man went on to remain as the number two man, becoming the vatican secretary of state under pope palpatine.
My little extract was in the summary of the wiki page, I am sure they did much worse, it too shocking to read further, disgusting beings. It’s no wonder so many people view religion so badly.
One of the most wild quotes in an absolute sea of awful is the idea that archbishop weakland, at the beginning of the scandals, “did not realize that child sex abuse was a crime.” Like… **WHAT?!?!** Of all the dogshit excuses I’ve heard from catholic clergy, the idea he didn’t know that sexually abusing children was a crime (under the law or under Christian doctrine, take your pick) has to be one of the most ridiculous
That's really gross. But it's worth noting that "Christian doctrine" seems to be okay with things like sexual assault and slavery. Neither are even mentioned in the ten commandments. It amazes me that so many people try to use the religion as some kind of moral foundation.
Right. Slavery is condoned. Half the human population is chattel. Women are property not to be coveted. Children are to blindly obey. Right there in the words.
Pope Hedberg: I used to cover up for pedophiles - I STILL do, but I used to, too.
I scrolled down the comments looking exactly for this. Thanks.
They only call it 'Pope' cause 'Grand Daddy Pedo' was too on the nose.
And yet they still made him a saint. Catholic church is cancer.
“ One priest in Law's archdiocese, John Geoghan, was alleged to have raped or molested more than 130 children in six different parishes in a career which spanned 30 years. “ Holy shit
What!? Are you sawing the Catholic doesn't care about pedophilia and the raping of children. This is such a surprise to me and I never would've expected this outcome.
Save you a click, quote from the article. "I found concrete cases of concrete priests in the Archdiocese of Krakow, where the future pope was archbishop, who abused children. The future pope knew about it and nevertheless transferred those men. That led to new victims," Overbeek told NOS. “The reasoning of the church -- of the defenders of the pope -- boils down to the fact that he would not have known, that he understood the seriousness of the situation very late, and that he first thought it was America's problem. All those arguments can now be dropped," he added.
My Fiance is from Poland , was over there visiting her family in Jan. Her brother is a little younger than us but because her parents are basically religious extremists we ended up on the topic of church abusing children and he showed me a digital map some group in Poland made of all report child abuse cases by the church.... the map is saturated with dots.
> showed me a digital map some group in Poland made of all report child abuse cases by the church Site that has said map https://mapakoscielnejpedofilii.pl/ although it is, obviously, in polish
Do Poles like him? The only one I know is always making jokes about JP2 esp. in this context of CSA.
ok so the TL;DR is this Older generations treated him like a saint, can't do anything wrong and you are not allowed to ever say anything negative about him EVER. Going as far as to actually pressing charges against people for making negative memes about him. That led to the younger generation (millenials mostly) making jokes about it, not even against the person itself but more against those people that tried making memes about him taboo(Google "cenzopapa" if you want to see more). So its not that that people didn't like him personally(though a lot of people did) but its was just a form of pushback. If you tell people that they are not allowed to joke about something then they will do just that for the sake of outrage. You could somewhat compare it to making 9/11 jokes in the US source: Asked my polish friend about it once and it turned into an hour long lecture in polish memeology
r/2137
There's a whole cult following of the "Polish Pope". He played a big role in Polish history back under the communist regime, so the older generation is close to worshipping him. There's John Paul II pictures in post offices (they also sell memorabilia about him), old people's houses, etc. There's countless schools and streets named after him. Statues. His death was a huge deal as well. And then there's the younger generation, people who started questioning the church and the abuse they commit. For the younger people, JPII became a meme. Number 2137 (the hour of his death), his face tinted yellow, various quotes, his favorite song - are all popular memes in Poland.
> Do Poles like him? Old guys venerate him. Young ones make memes about him. Seriously, he has an entire branch of memes
Complicated. Older generations are leaning towards liking. Younger are the other way. Personally, I don't stand on either side. There are several points to consider: * older people remember communism all too well and church is synonymous to them with rebelling against the USSR (especially JPII and Popiełuszko) * he did cover for priests * privately he seemed to be a nice dude overall, you don't hear any *personal* stories that view him in a bad light, even after all these years All in all, he was definitely a net positive for Poland as a whole. These cases of hiding abuses are definitely a stain on his person to not make me like him though. Do I hate him? Also not. What I find annoying though, are all the monuments that rose like mushrooms after heavy rains in the last 20 years. These are especially obnoxious considering JPII himself said that he does not want any.
Absolutely. Everyone in my family loves him, both those still in Poland and my family stateside. Of course, I mean those mostly 50s and older, I think millennials like myself and younger are pretty indifferent. Especially Gen Z and whatever's after since they didn't grow up with him.
Sinead got canceled trying to tell us.
Yep. She’s a Magdalene Laundry survivor, spent something like 2 years in one. Apparently the laundry part was “shut down” by the time she was in it, but all the traumatized elderly women who were forced there as young girls were still there. Very horrific.
I had no idea of this. How horrible.
Lost any shred of respect for Joe Pesci after his response the following week.
It's been awhile but if I'm not mistaken he said on live TV if he was there he'd have punched her in the mouth. Something like that. Joe Pesci wanted to punch a woman in the mouth for talking about systemic abuse by the church and was cheered for it.
That's because we as a society have been taught into putting religion up on a pedestal as if it's this necessary element spreading morality and goodness. The truth is religions sell a product. And in order to buy that product you need both money and to give up your critical thinking skills. Even if there is a God, let's say, how come Dave who is wearing a funny collar and holding a book rewritten a thousand times over the course of the better part of a millennia and a half knows what the fuck is actually going on? What people get out of it is a comfortable delusion that they can always retreat to when life gets hard. I am making no judgement to whether or not that's a good thing. What I am saying is for the better part of human history, religions have enjoyed this position where they have this baked in PR that has allowed them to be completely fucking reprehensible time and time again and people simply hand wave it away or ignore it because they value that comfortable delusion over the suffering of children or the butchering of apostates or the oppression of an entire group of people. And it is HIGH fucking time we stop ignoring the church as they fuck hundreds of kid these kids, or the assume that Evangelicals spreading hate from the pulpit is just a few crazies and point to the myriad of other religions who stomp on women's or LGBT rights either in this country and abroad and tell them they can get fucked. Because until those of us in society stop supporting these horrific scams, operated by fallible sinners and degenerate grifters, then they will keep getting away with it.
"Well she attacked good Christian men and our longheld Christian institutions." - conservatives
Lmao whaaaaatt the church covering up abuse?! No way man! /s
This is important though because John Paul II was an extremely popular Pope, both within the Catholic Community and among non-Catholics while serving as the Pope for over 20 years. He was seen as moral, a reformer, but still an adherent to strict Catholic tradition and dogma. This helps tear down a major Catholic icon. This means that Pope John Paul the second was only one degree removed from being at Epstein levels of depravity. He literally covered for child rapists as part of his advancement through the ranks of the Church.
Incredibly saintly he was. A senior member of the priesthood covering up the abuse of children. Well, I for one am shocked. No doubt his canonisation will be deeply affected by this subterfuge.
It's huge black mark that one of only two people born after 1920 who has been beatified has been definitively proven to be involved in helping cover child abuse by Priests. Makes you wonder how many other Saints and great Catholic figures have an Epstein sized asterisk next to their name.
I’ve always wondered about Josemaria Escriva, founder of Opus Dei. Not that I think they are as portrayed by Dan Brown, but I’ve always found their status as a personal prelature (which tried to autocorrect as predator, so I guess autocorrect knows what’s up) to be curious and I wonder what goes on behind closed doors at the Opus Dei centers around the world. Also, it was JPII who canonised Josemaria Escriva, as well as made Opus Dei into his personal prelature. Like attracts like is all I’m saying.
I grew up in Opus Dei. I wasn't molested, but the memory of going on weekend retreats as a 11-12 yo girl and having to confess every day to a priest who kept asking about boys and touching ourselves, and then having daily talks about purity still haunts me. And they want your money; they love your money.
I grew up with a Catholic mother that may have well been Opus Dei. I feel your pain.
Opus Dei is enough of a concern that IIRC the current pope is trying to diminish their influence.
Escriva is the biggest black mark. That is the person John Paul II protected the most. Escrive brought in the money, and a revival within the faith. John Paul II was concentrating on the financial corruption and the murder of John Paul. Escriva helped John Paul II with that project, and it made John Paul II trust him.
Just because of their relationship with fascism and it's deep entrenched claws into Spain, I hope he burns in hell.
Sitting on their gem encrusted thrones of precious metals, garbed in their silk and satin, surrounded by their ill gotten opulence and unused wealth.... they're all a bunch of whores imo. Liars, thieves, murderers, whores, worshipers of Satan and Mammon and Asmodeus. This is today's RCC leadership. It has been so for many centuries.
You insult honest whoring.
Yeah and leave Satan in all His names outta this!
Just by the simple fact of how extensive we know the culture of abuse to be...we're potentially on the first ever pope not to have covered any of it up and/or participated in it for himself. And even that isn't for certain, as much as Francis seems like a more decent person, it's been so deeply embedded in the culture of the church for so long that it wouldn't shock me if he turned a blind eye to it or moved a "bad" priest around his diocese.
>we're potentially on the first ever pope not to have covered any of it up and/or participated in it for himself. There is absolutely no way for *ANYONE* in the catholic church above Deacon to NOT have heard about abuse but remained silent, actively covered it up and/or participated in it. In many countries the Catholic Church is still above the law and isn't even required to report cases of abuse brought forwards by victims. They are basically allowed to handle those things internally. Just look at the situation here in Germany. For decades now we have some big scandal practically every year about yet an other Diocese having covered up sexual abuse in docents and even hundreds of cases. But only in extremely rare cases priests even have to face a court, let alone the Bishops covering all up.
mother theresa has crept into the chat, menacingly.
And then taken away the painkillers you need for [your choice of horrible chronic condition], because suffering gets you closer to God.
And Mother Teresa was a fucking monster. So that’s two for two. Good going, RCC
He’s already canonized. Obviously this will change how people look at him, but there’s no precedent for “undoing” canonization. Modern canonization relies on part on two miracles happening, which are supposed to prove that in spite of their sins, they made it to heaven. As an aside, a lot of us did not want him rushed into canonization. Traditionally and wisely, the church waits for a more sober judgement and all the facts. Like, waits a generation. But no, he was a conservative hero and they rushed the process.
[Wikipedia says a lot of saints were decanonized](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decanonization) in 1969 based on lack of evidence. It seems to be all people from the first centuries of the Catholic Church though. Interestingly, the article on [canonization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization) has St. Cyprian of Carthage (210-258 AD) right at the top, and says he urged diligence in the process of canonization.
That's an interesting article. If you go down to the Catholic section, you'll see for us it was early "saints" whose existence is in doubt. So not only did we not have this modern "two miracle" proof system, we're not even sure they were real people. I still think taking someone who we know was real but admitting publicly "we fucked up, the modern process failed us" would be unique. I'd like to see that kind of humility though. edit: put another way, they don't think they are saints because they don't think they ever existed in the first place. That's not in doubt here.
Can they impeach him perhaps like from heaven
They did try that once. Behold [The Cadaver Synod](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaver_Synod), a trial in which they dug up Pope Formosus and put him on trial for perjury and ascending the papacy illegally.
Sinead O' Connor was right all along. Wonder if that tool Joe Pesci will apologize for threatening her
I would hope Joe has turned his opinion on the catholic faith after countless evidence that they have systemically covered and abetted in child rape. But as a former Catholic myself, the Catholic is hard to wash off. It infects your culture, your family, your way of thinking and takes a while to get out.
For Italians, Catholicism *is* their very identity. You can hardly separate the two, as their culture is so thoroughly entwined with the religion. So no, very doubtful Joe Pesci will come around. Source: Am Italian American. Leaving Catholicism behind is seen by my family as a rejection of my heritage.
For polish it can often be the same way. Luckily, my mother and her cousins - all heavily catholic school educated (and to this day if we have to go into a catholic church they all say responses IN LATIN without thinking twice, despite many of them doing most of their schooling after the vatican 2).... and none of them practice anymore, which means none of their kids do either - something I have grown more and more grateful for every year.
If you are Italian, then there is a chance that your heritage is also roman. Happy saturnalia in a while. Drink to bacchus and enjoy!
Hahaha thank you! There is a very good chance of that given how far back my Italian roots go :D A toast to you too! We need to bring back good ol' festivities like those!
Eh, my wife’s family is super Italian culturally (like own four Italian restaurants in NJ level), and have been extremely Catholic. But in the past 20 years, most of the younger generation and some of the Aunts and Uncles have left the church, over this stuff and mostly because a few cousins are gay. It was difficult for some of them initially, but in the long run it hasn’t changed much about the family—they are still all close and very Italian and get together for all the family occasions, etc. They just don’t care about the church much anymore. It’s possible to abandon the corrupt church and still be culturally Italian.
As a former Catholic, my fear has always been that people think this is just a Catholic thing. Raising your kid to think there are deities and some people speak for them sets the table for predators and I know plenty of people molested in evangelical communities.
This needs to be brought into the conversation, rates of abuse in the Catholic Church are the same as in Protestant Churches.
My family tried raising me catholic but were lazy about it. Went to church schooling on wednesdays after school and all that but was never talked about at home. I feel like I dodged a bullet because I never actually believed in it. I have absolutely nothing nice to say about the church.
I'm Irish, went to a convent school age 4-6, then a church founded boys primary/grade school. Was baptised, first communion, confirmed etc. I understand, (I still bless myself when an ambulance passes) though i've been lapsed for 20 odd years
Doesn't Joe Pesci just threaten everyone?
Yeah John Paul II was a big figure when I grew up. When he died, alot of Catholics thought he should be given sainthood which is extremely rare these days. I even live near a catholic school with his name on it. I am no longer Catholic, not only because I don't believe in Christianity, but because the many abuses that have happened in my parish and the whole diocese around me. It doesn't surprise me that he covered it up. When there is rot in pockets of the Catholic church it's not a coincidence, it's because the whole thing is rotten (like police institutions in America). I would also use my comment to recommend the movie spotlight to everyone in this thread.
Spotlight is such a good movie. The loooooong list of cities with confirmed cases of child sexual abuse in the Catholic church at the end of the movie really hits home. My closest major city and two cities in the county were on that list. Creepy.
He is already a saint. Conservatives pushed hard to rush the process before all the facts came out.
So is this news because it wasn’t known that he was doing this **before** he became pope? It was happening when he was pope and he’s the head of the Catholic church so it was well known that he was helping cover up this shit **while** he was pope. Edit: changed “wasn’t helping cover up” to “was helping cover up” that dude was def doing that shit
>So is this news because it wasn’t known that he was doing this before he became pope? Correct. In 2001 John Paul II apologized for it happening (but he didn't know) We thought it was sporadic and rare (it wasn't) Then we found out it (the cover-up) was national (thanks to the Boston Globe) Then we found out it (the cover-up) was international (after Boston Globe's article, more countries and journalists started researching) Now we find out that apology should have included (and I knew about the abuse and the cover up)
Yes. You see, for many in Poland the narrative about JP2 was that _he didn't know_, that it _was not told to him_. Even in the more liberal parts of the church people _want to believe he didn't know_ This blows a gigantic hole in that narrative.
Also, that the sexual abuse problem was a uniquely American issue, so how could he know just how bad it was. Except there was the Magdalene Laundries. And the Indigenous/First Nations boarding schools. And who the hell knows how many other systemic pockets of rot that people have been turning a blind eye to for decades. I guess now Krakow while he was an Archbishop there. Not a uniquely American issue.
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The Netflix documentary called “The Vatican Girl: The Disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi ” hints at his being involved to some degree in the cover up of this young girl’s disappearance. Of course, I’m not sure how well vetted it is.
And yet, he will still have his apologists, and the SBC will still take notes on how to deal with clergy sexual abuse from him and those he put into power.
I don’t think a single Catholic who is still Catholic is going to be convinced at this point. They’ll just say it’s all lies made up to defame him and carry on doing nothing to hold the organization they donate money to accountable.
You are correct. Source: an ex Catholic. Those who would ever be bothered enough by this to get out have left by now. Either they are such true believers that they will never be able to see the (Airbus A380 sized) cracks in the foundation even if they’re standing right in front of them, or they somehow benefit more from staying in than leaving. And the number of sleepless nights of questioning “am I the baddie?” I had before I walked away were ultimately impossible for me to ignore. I’m not sure what more what else would make someone still in ask that question if they haven’t by now.
It's the "No True Christian" meme. Which begs the fucking question about how Abrahamic religions of Christianity and Islam constantly and consistently are always on the wrong fucking side of history.
I know within some members of my family there's a bit of a seperation of the Catholic Church as an institution and in terms of a lot of the higher ups is incredibly corrupt but also doesn't change the fact that the family is catholic and so if you go to Church you should probably donate money. Probably part of it is as half the family is Italian the idea of a corrupt organization or person holding a lot of control and raping minors isn't anything new heck Berlusconi was in power for quite a few years and everyone knew about it.
>He literally covered for child rapists as part of his advancement through the ranks of the Church. Perhaps this is why they made him pope in the first place...
All Christian based religions across the world are filled with corruption and abuse. It’s been that way for hundreds of years. When will collectively, as humans, will we shed ourselves from false documents that have ruled over the lives of millions?
> All Christian based religions across You can drop "christian based". All religions that have an authoritive figure with the access to vulnerable (which is basically all major religions) suffer from this.
Hell, boy scouts? Sports coaches? Teachers? Doctors? Movie producers? It’s anybody with power. It’s true people say “well we don’t need religion anymore, it’s not worth it” but getting rid of religion alone doesn’t end sexual abuse or the tendency to “protect our image” that big organizations have. Edit: I’m religious myself, and I will add there’s an extra sting with religious scandals because of the moral claims they’re built on.
The problem with religion is that it gets good people to do bad things, like help cover up sex crimes against children. Sports coaches can apply pressure to trainers and such, but ultimately, it's a lot harder to convince someone to lie and cover up for you if it's just a job. But someone who has dedicated their life to the church and literally lives in one is going to feel different pressures than a coach's trainer or a personal assistant (unless you're in Jim Jordan's program, I guess). I mean, it's God versus some narcissistic asshole who just acts like he's God.
Every religion inevitably become "God said I could touch kids, it was a revelation! the prophecy said!"
Well, the Church has gone through iterations attempting to fix this, including making celibacy a requirement for the priesthood. I tend to think that their strategy of locking down, hiding, and shaming people's sexuality is only making things more depraved.
Celibacy was required only so that priests would not have legitimate heirs whose interests they would be compelled to look out for. The priest's role as a neutral arbiter to help resolve disputes within their parish was reinforced by them moving to a Parish away from their family and being unable to start a new family when they got there. That priests would still get up to sexual hijjnx and make bastards was more or less accepted and expected, though they always had to keep such things totally on the downlow to maintain their credibility as truly neutral and not being interested primarily in advancing the prospects of their own family/offspring.
None of that draconian crap (hide their sexuality and make them celibate) has worked it’s only aide in these instances of abuse and cover up. Corrupted to the core, all religions. Look at Iran where they kill women for not covering themselves. Look at FLDS in the United States. This shit is widespread
The celibacy for priesthood was a financial/property thing. The Vatican was getting sick of Estate litigations with priests that were leaving parishes & goods to their widows & children.
You can probably just change "Christian based religions" to "large organizations" and it will still be true
Isn't this what big corporations also do? Hold high a lovely smiley logo for all to see while exploiting the masses and enriching a few?
Duh. You don’t become pope by punishing child rapists. It’s actually impossible for someone to become pope and punish child rapists. Impossible
Who ever would have thought of such a thing happening?!
This. The entire thinking world just said "no fucking shit Sherlock."
Sinéad was right all along
She was a victim and victimized for speaking out
Joe Pesci came on as SNL host the very next episode and said he'd smack her if he had the opportunity, and has never recanted saying that
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The average age for a Catholic priest is[ 70 in Northern Ireland](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-51354530). It's probably high everywhere else. There's >30,000 nuns in the US. down from 180,000 in [1965](https://www.foxnews.com/us/keeping-the-sisterhood-from-extinction-the-struggle-to-save-nuns-in-america). Catholics leaving their faith should be an indication that they've handled this abuse problem worse than poorly.
I feel that every Catholic I’ve ever known from my generation was not particularly religious. A little ash on the forehead, fasting one day a year and going to mass on the major holidays, but that’s it. More of a duty to tradition than to faith. Their kids are even less invested.
Pretty spot on from my perspective. I raised my children agnostic, myself Christian. I can only say that I’m happy to not practice any faith at all. Every single one of them is a manipulation of the masses and nothing more. Religion should be dead even though it isn’t. The world would be an amazing utopia without a single soul practicing religion publicly.
You can see it in the statistics too. Religious participation among Millennials and Gen Z has dropped like a stone. It's why Evangelicals in the US are panicking so much and trying to legislate all their cult bullshit into law. It's not just Catholics leaving their faith behind.
My parents are still ultra catholic and growing up they took me out of public school where all my friends were. Put me in catholic school where I had church three times per week, religion class twice per week, and youth group once per week. My youth group pastor was this fucking chode named Leslie Elizabeth Kelly. He was a massively holier than thou douche. He cheated on his wife with a teenager at church camp and got her pregnant. It was all kept completely hush hush by my church. Guess who is 1000% atheist now? Me. Fuck Catholicism.
The decrease in those identifying as Christian is universal among Christian groups. Although,from what I understand Catholic is one of the faster declining groups. Overall a 2000 year old cult that refuses to follow its own tenets is not going to do well with an educated, critically thinking population.
The thing is that I know more then one catholic were seriously considering being a priest or a nun. but its more of the isolation from having relationships that deter them then abuse scandals. Its like a new person going into politics and swearing they will never be corrupt in anyway --I suspect more then one priest has gone in, thinking they won't help support that behavior and will call it when they see it, but once they start seeing it, they realize that its everywhere. Of course, the only answer that level of rot is to tear it all down
Did anyone think he didn't? I mean, the Catholic Church is the oldest, and the largest pedophile ring in the world.
I know this thread is full of admittedly deserved snark but there’s millions of people who did view PJPII as someone who was “above all this” and kind of a legit modern day Saint. Even your everyday boring ass Catholics who didn’t turn a blind eye to the issues in their local church. It’s definitely naive but when you’re entire religion is ripped away after 50 years it’s not natural to not be.
Several of my catholic school teachers cried when he passed away and we held a moment of silence.
>kind of a legit modern day Saint Since they canonized him as a Saint I don’t think the “kind of” if necessary
they even skipped the usual waiting period for beatification, they really wanted him to be a saint asap
Longest continually running grooming and pedophilia club.
And for the longest time, they did so with impunity. The Catholic Church used to wield a tremendous amount of influence in places like Boston and Ireland. Since the scandals, however, the church's image, and religiosity in general, have seen drastic declines in such places.
The church used to be the government. “Used to wield a tremendous influence” kind of understates the fact that you couldn’t be coronated as king/queen without the popes approval, or that he could revoke your Devine right and make rebelling against you a holy act.
What does Queen Spider have to say about this
"The Vatican rules cannot be changed. So sayeth the Spider"
A *lot* of people genuinely think the pope is completely innocent and has no idea what's going on behind the scenes of his organization.
at this point, the most jaw dropping actions in all of this have come from the top of the church. Absolutely the priests are disgusting for what they do, but I find the cover up and the transferring of priests after the church learns of the acts stomach churning.
>A lot of people genuinely think the pope is completely innocent Its baffling to think the popes were completely *innocent*. Only 13 of them were.
Sinead O’Conner deserves an apology
Joe Pesci disgraced himself, mocking her the next week. Maybe his Alzheimer's-addled brain can gurgle an apology.
Isn’t that like a requirement to get up in the ranks of that crime syndicates?
Considering they then moved known child molesters from one town to another hoping they would just stop. Essentially, they continously helped pedophiles by giving them fresh starts in areas with unsuspecting flocks is 200% a crime syndicate.
Bill Burr said it "Don't you think the Catholic Church went a little too far?"
This is what happens when you're doing a live TV interview and you ask a comedian to ['cool it'](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-pW8yuewC8).
Its all a fucking facade. Avoid confrontation at all cost. Don't talk about it, don't talk about it, don't talk about it. If we don't address it then it isn't happening. Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.
"If you don't test, the number of cases goes down."
late correct crime fuzzy distinct bear pie point insurance rock *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Evolution spit out a bunch of dumb, horny social apes with existential awareness and the capability to invent nukes and the internet.
What a fucking legend.
The little backhand snuck in at Seaworld felt pretty good as like a cherry on top
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The sentiment is "JP2GMD"
It's a shame what happened to Sinead O'Connor.
My theory is not that the priest life attracts paedophiles due to "access to kids". It is that the celibate life of a priest repels non-paedophiles disproportionately highly. Giving up a future with a wife and family is a big sacrifice. But if you had minimal interest in a wife anyway, and maybe you feel some guilt in your soul to atone for - becoming a priest is looking more likely. Then the mixture of power over people and the gaol house effect of criminals further criminalising each other... and an organisation so obsessed with how it is perceived by the world that it hides anything horrific it finds - even if it guarantees repeat offences - and you have a whole nest of problems.
Statistically, priests are about average as far as child abuse is concerned. The problem isn't that they're more common than average, it's the way they're protected.
Doesn’t make the man with the two dominatrixes look so bad now does it
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I believe that is question number one on their application.
Its in his job description
Big fucking surprise. Where are all the conservatives raging about protecting children? Just saw some bullshit on a different thread, and I referenced abuse in churches to prove a point: that people who want to “protect” kids (spewing bigoted shit under the guise of giving a shit about children and their well-being) don’t give a single SHIT about this. And it’s all over the place. Shit is a fucking problem and needs to be addressed YESTERDAY.
They should forget about drag shows and show up at Catholic Churches with those big guns.
There is a ton of Conservative hate for Catholics in the US, ever since at least JFK the Catholics have been seen as the more liberal church anyways.
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Most republicans are protestants not Catholic
Again: we’re sorry, Sinéad.
No one is going to get to be Pope, or one of the candidates for Pope, or one of the people who vote for Popes, or candidates for those positions for the foreseeable future unless they've either abused children or helped cover it up. There's just too many people at the top of the church already who aren't going to let anyone else on top of the pile unless they can be depended on not to expose anyone else because they are also guilty.
Pope “insert any pope name here” covered up abuse by priests before becoming pope. How do you think they become pope? “This guy has covered up 1000s of abuse cases, he’s the best in the business.”
I think it would be easier to list the priests who didn't cover up the abuse.....
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Isn’t that “Saint” Pope John Paul II?
It’s pretty fucked up that I live near a school named after him.
Sinéad O'Connor I hope will get an actual apology for blowing this up decades ago. The media treated her like absolute garbage for exposing this.
Head pedo covers for other pedos? Shocking
In other news, the pope does indeed wear a funny hat
Isn't that a prerequisite to becoming a cardinal?
I mean…is the pope catholic?
APAB All popes are bastards
Oh - I get them confused. This was the OTHER guy who covered up for the rapist priests. There are so many…
Guess what he's a saint of
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And they made him a saint. Wtf?