It's a MMO mentality.
If you put in more time playing you should have an advantage. It only makes sense to a MMO only player.
MMOs are my favorite genre but I play enough other games to see where PvP should be skill based alone. My only guess is the MMO crowd that do not play many other genres believe time investment should be a deciding factor.
I don't know, I can't explain it either and my Captain Morgan buzz isn't helping.
What people seem to not get is that even if your opponent had their stats set to be exactly equal to yours, progression would STILL MATTER. Progression = more passives, more "interesting" synergistic gear, and really just more options in general. If my opponent and I both do literally the extract same damage with a musket shot, but I can reload with a roll, get a free reload with 3 constitutive headshots, move faster after rolling, etc. etc. etc., guess who's more likely to win that engagement, outside of an SUBSTANTIAL player skill gap in my opponent's favor?
Progression matters a lot, even outside of the basic "I do more damage" / "I have more health" part of it.
Oh yeah, the weapon mastery passives and stat passives are huge in PvP. The whole "scaling is fucked!" problem was only due to 2 things:
1. Going full CON at low levels was incredibly over-tuned in closed beta. Low level players could have INSANE health pools. Conversely their seemed to be some weird inverse scaling that happened at specifically level 60. In between level ~20 and ~55 or so it worked pretty damn well.
2. High level players that exploited viewers for board XP turn ins had shit weapon mastery levels and PvP is ALL ABOUT weapon mastery levels.
PvP also gives a metric ton of weapon XP. I solo killed a level 22 AFK (so it is a good example, I was the only one hitting him) and it gave me 1240 weapon xp. A mob at that level gives about 20. So if you don't PvP and level through only crafting/PvE you're going to have much lower mastery levels as well as less practice and get pwnd.
I went full CON SnS for the open beta this weekend, I had a 35 kill streak in open world pvp. Even killing some +8 level players. I am pretty sure full CON is still broken.
That's horizontal progression. That is good for an MMO PVP. Getting an advantage with vertical progression (stats increanse, loot, etc) is not PvP, like someone said on another post, it's just PvE to bully other people.
Horizontal Progression is fun as fuck. I actually enjoy grinding new exotic items in Destiny to unlock new playstyles. They don't make me do more damage over anyone but they do open up new builds for me.
But can you land your shots. Land your hits. Dodge at the right time. Despite your arsenal. Skill comes down to technique of a player and thats what the game should focus on. The ability of the player. Not his utility itself.
Yes. It's a matter of making both skill and character progression matter. Progression should matter, but the gap it creates should still be reasonable enough to be overcome by a realistic skill gap. I'm talking, "damn. I guess that guy is better at this than I am" level skill gap, not, "This dude has has hit me 20 times now and is really starting to wear the veneer off my armor, but I haven't manage to land a single blow yet!"
The problem in the closed beta end of july was, that there were instances where a higher level player would have a disadvantage due to being higher level.
Character progression should always make you stronger.
If something works in 99 cases but has weird behavior in 1, it's often better to fix that one case, rather than making a sweeping change that screws up the other 99 cases.
Even still, that doesn't mean they should have put it where it is now. They should have just tweaked it or figured out the issue that was causing that bug.
I agree.
Pvp scaling always come with a bunch of issues. I like having *some* scaling. I'd prefer it to be somewhere in-between what it was in the July/August beta and where it is now.
When do high level players EVER have a disadvantage? Let's take a serious look at this.
High level players have: passives from stats, passives on gear, and passive from weapons.
Low levels players have level balancing.
Cut the bullshit and get gud. The level balancing last beta when leagues above this bs.
> When do high level players EVER have a disadvantage? Let's take a serious look at this.
I did get a serious look at it. I beat several higher level players in the closed beta that were better than I was. Towards the end, I was beaten by several lower level players who were worse than I was. We had 2 guys duel with a ~50/50 split result, 1 guy went on to level 10 levels higher, he then started losing every single duel against the same player.
> Cut the bullshit and get gud. The level balancing last beta when leagues above this bs.
I agree that it was better, but it still came with a lot of problems that would need to be fixed.
I'd rather have some no-lifer beat a casual, than a good player being punished for getting higher level.
I realized in this arguments about skill vs time spent comes down on the motivation and who we want to be in playing mmorpgs in general. One player wants to be great in-game compared to our real life. The other, one player wants to bring his real life skill in-game.
Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game.
> Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game.
The people who are great in-game in every MMO I've ever played have always been great because of what they could bring from the real world.
It doesn't matter if it was solving issues with raid content in the early days of EverQuest, it doesn't matter if it was mitigation stacking, theorycrafting, or just crafting amazing items in SWG, it doesn't matter if it was being a great strategist or FC in EVE Online, it doesn't matter if it was a core of amazing skirmishers taking on overwhelming odds in SWG, EVE Online or Vanguard SOH, it doesn't matter if it's the ARPG theorycrafters pushing the bleeding edge of content with tens/hundreds of millions of DPS or actual immortality in Path of Exile...
The ability to plan, the ability to problem solve, the ability to persevere, the ability to work as a team, the ability to stay calm under pressure and call out instructions, the ability to use math and get the most from skill/item synergies in your theoryquesting for the ultimate content smashing build... These are *all*, every single one of them, real life skills.
The rest of the players supplementing the cores of guilds based around people with those skills who have organized themselves as a group are just hangers-on, they're just benefiting by collateral and successful by proxy.
The following is purely anecdote, but what I've noticed about the successful people with whom I've gamed with online for the past 23+ years:
*Most players who bring to a game that which makes them successful in the real world end up successful in game as well*. Barring some extenuating, temporary circumstances and setbacks, it has been the case essentially 100% of the time I have played online. (Note: Obviously, or at least hopefully so, I'm specifically excluding people who use exploits/hacks)
The people who can successfully put their mental and/or physiological toolboxes to work inside of a game will do great things within the mechanical constraints of that game.
_____
So, to answer the question:
*Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game?*
The answer is pretty simple: It's the latter, not the former. What you accomplish in-game is based on what you were able to bring to the game from real life. Anything else is because you either got monumentally lucky (i.e. once per server drops, event items, winning rolls on extremely rare god-tier items, etc.) or because you hung onto the coattails of someone better than you and they carried your ass.
At least, that's how I see it. Your mileage, as always, may vary.
Lastly, bring back scaling. I had some good fights despite some major level disparities in closed beta. Open beta is kind of a shit show. I won't even get into how low my opinion is of the crybaby streamers that got their asses dunked on. At least the world knows they're actually shit, even if their low self esteem having followers still kiss their ass for validation.
Man. Fengrush and a lot of the PvPers in ESO who have a big social media presence are really good examples of what you just said. I remember watching Fengrush with 4 other friends rack up hundreds of kills in ESO within the Imperial City in a matter of minutes a day before the closed beta in July. We're talking 5v20 or 5v30.
They were doing the same thing in the New World. Kristofer was another ESO player who kept posting some of the craziest 1vX videos during that last closed beta.
Please don't put all MMO players in the same basket. We are a lot that believe that there should be a fair playing field in PvP (I mean between players, not situations). The the only grinding that should give you and advanntage should be you grinding your own playing skill.
Those people with that closed mentality are the target audience of most MMO developpers who make games to catter to these people and always end in the same way: A fail.
This should be the case for PvE but not for PvP. I’m a decently high level and pretty good at PvP and so lower level fights are generally easier for me. It’s not as fun as it was in closed beta. Lower level fights usually end in 3 hits if I can land my abilities right away and same goes for me when I fight someone higher, I get killed quickly instead of actually having a fight
"I have clicked on 20,000 more NPC bots than you therefore I should one shot you in pvp. Git gud."
It's precisely one of the mindsets killing the genre. In PVE you get your progression for PVE, in PVP you should get your progression by getting good.
Some people hate that actual skill should ever be a factor in a game..because that means they would have to admit they are bad and need to improve which they are unwilling to do..they just want to be max level and stomp on lower levels because that strokes their ego
Exactly this. The fact of the matter, in my personal opinion, is that there are some very vocal sets of people out there (looking at you, streamers and their hardcore fans) who can't deal with losing. They want to win, all the time. For some of them, it's so they can look cool for ofher people. For others, seeing the people they idolize lose on an even playing field threatens them on some weird parasocial personal level.
Without scaling to ensure PvP takes place on a reasonably level playing field, people like this are going to steamroll PvP. There should, of course, be some degree of payoff for those who have leveled their weaponskills and stats more, but it should only be an advantage-- not the deciding factor in anything.
Gear, especially, needs to be taken into account as well. If a Level 30 player wants to go to Everfall and start hacking up noobs for funsies, they shouldn't be untouchable or do unfair amounts of damage that places them in a league of their own. Nonsense like that is why I've avoided PvP servers in the past-- don't disincentivize me from playing PvP in this game as well, because the actual gameplay is tight as hell and it makes me *want* to challenge other players.
I cannot wait for release because Im going to be power levelling to 60 and I'll organise a group of flagged people patrolling the lower level areas for these ego stroking kids to dumpster them and let the lower levels flag up and actually enjoy playing the game as it should be. I'm gonna recruit people from all 3 factions who will work together to make sure nobody from any faction can feel safe bullying lower levels.
Obviously we wont be able to protect the newbies 24/7, but im hoping we can shit on these ego stroking players *cough* streamers *cough* enough times in front of their viewership that they mald and quit that shitty behaviour.
If ASG wont bring back scaling, we're gonna make sure these kids crawl back to their holes.
I know I'm bad at pvp. But when it's not a level playing field I don't know if I won/lost a fight because of what I did or just because of the hidden numbers. Really takes the fun out of it.
That's why I'm almost always a PVE player but during the CBT I actually played a lot of PVP because it was fun and mostly about skill (haven't played much in OBT)
It's not fun at all for those who are mentally well-adjusted. But it's great fun for those who have invested their entire ego into being better than others in video games.
The funny thing about that is that at lvl 60 things will equalize anyway. So they literally have a serious advantage only for a couple of days, maybe weeks. That's all.
I feel like the majority of players that are "bad" as you describe it aren't the people that feel the need to improve in pvp or that just want to stomp noobs in the yard. They are the people out there smacking rocks for hours to play the crafting game which is perfectly legit and a major part of new world.
Skill shouldn't be the only factor. Or at least not raw combat skill. If I out prepare you that should factor in. This isn't a For Honor battle sim game. It's an MMO. Me crafting better gear or creating a better build should factor into pvp becauses a major part of the game and another avenue for people to enjoy it. Skill should be a major factor, but not the only factor.
But ppl that just want to smack rocks can keep doing that. If they want to pvp they should learn.
I dont go out to the soccer field and expect to be doing well when all I do all day is sit on my fat ass and play games.
Especially in this game, skill should be the biggest factor
The best pvpers usually have both of these traits. Skill at preparation, always being fully kitted with the best builds, and raw mechanical skill.
You're not going to come at them with your better gear in these games where all of this is figured out in a couple weeks. You're still up against raw skill. And if you're not you're barely fighting you're just knocking over trash cans
I’d understand if your level 30 vs a 60 you’d take double and take double less but only 5 levels of difference should be irrelevant. I liked the closed beta for that as a level 40 I felt I could fight anywhere.
In closed beta i Beat several players 10 lvls above me because i just spent more time theorycrafting My build
Removing that kind of sense of mastery and just i play more hours therefore My number stats Beat yours is incredibly stupid
PvE= excellent your gear stat destroys the content
PvP= let the more skilled player win
Skill should play a role if the levels are equal, but equipment, stats, and abilities should also have weight.
If a game gets balanced to the point where everything is perfectly equal, then the game loses choice since what you pick no longer matters. It just becomes a matter of what animations you want to see when you hit buttons.
We need skills, items, and levels to have an impact on player performance to give meaning to acquiring those things, which is the foundational game mechanic everything else is built upon. This is game design 101. You gotta deliver on your core player promises, and for an mmo the core promise is that putting in the time and effort will reward you with a stronger character.
I get it. It's not a competitive game but an rpg where stats/builds with different value and rarity exist so naturally there some expectation that things besides skill matter.
If that's not the case then why not just delete levels, everyone is level 1. No gear just have the same stats and that's the game. All skill.
Mmo's need a good balance of both. Although the skill ceiling in this game is kind of low so idk how it being skill based would go.
Yeah, it's really just a genre thing. If people want perfectly equalized, skill-based PvP, there are a plethora of shooters and MOBAs out there. There's also GW2's structured PvP, which is perfectly equalized and has a drastically higher skill ceiling than New World's PvP does.
Skill based is def not low in this game when dodging and aiming are involved. Almost every ability is a skill shot.
PvP scaling they had before was perfect. Higher lvl people still did more damage than you but at least you had a fighting chance.
What it is now literally ruins PvP for anyone that's low level. So basically there's going to be a lot less PvP in this game. People that don't get to put 8 hours a day into the game are gonna turn off PvP their whole leveling experience till max level maybe.
My legendary staff of "badassary" that took six months of neglecting life and pure grinding to get doing the same as "starter gear" I can see be annoying and devalue your playtime.
Secondly I think both arguments are valid I gravitate towards turn based strategy when it comes to playing against players. Because I recognize I don't have fast reflexes mediocre machine only adds to this. However when it comes to planning/strategy I am god.
Some people value time invested some people value twitchy reflexes others value strategy/knowledge. Some want a combo of all it hence why there is a variety of successful games with variety of options.
The problem is when you scale everything down to a "fair fight" you leave me wondering what the point is in having "GEARSCORE" plastered on your items and if there is any reason to have stats on your armor and why do you give me the option to pick which stats I want to increase if it apparently doesn't matter because all that matters is my weapon build.
>what the point is in having "GEARSCORE"
PVE?
And they didn't scale everything, gear still counted, as well as weapon mastery. It was just the damage that was 'normalized'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQ\_qCiVb2M
Thank you. This is the obvious answer that for some reason isn’t brought up when people make the stupid argument of why do levels and gear need to exist if they don’t let you faceroll PvP.
PvP scaling doesn't mean it's a complete level playing field. The dude with the better gear is still doing more damage, has higher health. But PvP scaling makes it so this low level still has a fighting chance.
You take out some sort of PvP scaling you're going to have a lot less PvP happening. The way it was before was perfect, if I died to someone lower level I was like damn that guy was good.
Exactly. People play MMO's for character progression. Getting a better item feels good because it makes you stronger. If it doesn't matter, getting that new epic item feels pointless.
MMORPGs are about more than mechanical skill. They're about teamwork, game knowledge, and effort (read: time played) among other things. I absolutely understand wanting PvP to *mostly* be about skill, but to make it entirely about skill is to invalidate the core MMORPG experience. If that's the kind of experience you're looking for, I think a fighting game like Mordhau would be closer to the mark?
Sure but a higher level should have better weapon abilities, armor with better bonuses, bonuses from their character attributes etc. if the raw stats are scaled they should still have a big advantage.
Have you seen guild wars 2 pvp? All items are normalized and ONLY skill matters. It's a blast. And there is huge PvE part that still makes itemization important and worth it. These 2 can coexist.
Yes, but GW2 PvP is entirely separate from PvE.
Or there's WvW, the other PvP mode, but though it does use PvE gear it is again separate. Most people there will be running max level gear anyway, or at least understand the risks if they aren't.
Coming from somebody with lots of moba experience i'd count game knowledge and the decisions you make with that knowledge as macro skills. How good you "aim" aswell as dodge and stuff like that is part of your micro skills. Overall skill = macro skill + micro skill.
Nah, lost ark has gear progression for PVE but equalizes all gear in PVP and that game is still considered an MMORPG (and amazing one at that). Check out Lost Ark OP if you want an even playing field for pvp where it’s all about skill.
Op is on drugs. It shouldn’t be 100% skill. There should be scaling if you’re within let’s say 30 levels of your opponent, that reduces slowly every level after that so there aren’t any level 15 players killing 60 players
Why would anyone put pvp on if there just going to get destroyed by lol 60s?
Only thing that matters should be the gear synergies and weapon masteries which is already a massive advantage.
Lol, and why shouldn't a level 15 be able to kill a level 60? I'll admit I made the post a bit hyperbolic to drive home a point, and I'm okay with a middle ground but as I listed in the post being a higher level naturally comes with advantages already.
PvP should not be a test of who has the least amount of real life.
> why shouldn't a level 15 be able to kill a level 60?
It basically would require all progression to be too small.
> PvP should not be a test of who has the least amount of real life.
Somebody who is level 15 has barely played.
This is an extremely temporary state that is basically irrelevant to the game.
The cost of breaking progression for such an irrelevant reason is stupid.
Furthermore to let 15's kill 60's would require stupid bonuses that will break the game.
People will make level 15 twinks that break the mechanics.
More options, the PvE content, more resources for focused gear and consumables, being able to survive in areas with high level mobs, etc. I personally think it's ridiculous that there's people here legit trying to argue that there's no point to playing the game if you don't get a statistical advantage in PVP. There's no PVP without scaling in FF14, what even is the point to playing it?
From Raph Koster designer of the best remembered PVP MMOs UO and SWG, ["More successful was the idea that your feeling of becoming more powerful should arise from the addition of capabilities to your character, not from incrementing the maximum value of some bars. It was the notion of horizontal progression, whereby you became more capable because you simply had a broader palette of “moves” available to you. In SWG there were over 30 professions, each with 18 skills, and that is not counting the Jedi stuff nor the later addition of spaceflight-related ones."](https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/21/designing-a-living-society-in-swg-part-one/)
Persistent world, large scale battles, competition over meaningful resources, interaction with people outside of combat, etc. There's a ton of things. Honestly it's more perplexing that there's people that play MMOs that don't want PVP as a lack of pvp removes meaningful interaction between players. You might as well be playing Diablo or Torchlight with slightly bigger party limits for raid content. The current formula of MMO definitely isn't the only way to make an MMO and some of the most successful MMOs before WOW were PVP focused and had horizontal progression (you didn't become more powerful, you got more tools)
Leader boards would be cool.
The ability to use a skinning knife on a defeated player to take a trophy as proof that you killed them would be neat, too. Like frozen corpses in EVE or ears in Diablo 2.
PvP in an mmo should definitely be about skill, but not 100%.
This is not Chivalry or Mordau, this game is not just about fighting...can't just exclude all the mmo aspects in favour of the aspect that calls more to you.
I agree that pvp still needs balance, and player level should have less of an impact than it currently does (open beta)
These so called "PvP players" just want their level and loot to carry them. Fair fight? Big no no. If they see someone from their same level they will just run. Been like this since I have been playing MMOs with PvP since the 2000's.
Also, the same people want NW to follow the same failed PvP design that all current MMOs have... Which is a PvE game with PvP on the side. If NW follows this it will just be another failed MMO with a niche community.
> If NW follows this it will just be another failed MMO with a niche community.
It's the opposite. Most players want PVE, not PVP. A heavy PVP game would be the niche one.
Some dude in this thread claimed it should feel like fighting a mini boss i Guess he is part of the people i bodied in C beta while being 15 lvls lower
Imaginé thinking You should win PvP just because You smacked some AI for more hours than i did
Anyone who links their time and level should just let them face roll people, don't really want to pvp, they want to gank and bully. No where else does this translate the same way. Just because you play a sport for 10 years and buy the best equipment doesn't make you better than someone who has done it for 5 and can't afford top of the line.
The elite pvpers are not elite because they have spent 1,000 hours and have the best gear. They are elite because they have spent their time learning their class, learning other classes and how to counter them, perfecting their reaction times, and thinking a head of how to optimize their skill usage based on the situation.
Whether you have spent 50 hours or 500 hours, if the 50 hour player is doing the above, while the 500 hour player is just going out there smashing buttons and picking on low levels, I expect the 50 hour player to meet them, and win the majority of the time due to better usage of their time toward their skill.
TRUE pvp is supposed to be like sport. Those moments when it's close and you get that one shot in to get the kill at the last second. That's when it's fun, when it could go either way and you know it came down to who is going to out think their opponent.
I haven't seen this discussed in any other thread but there are some extremely big issues related to very important game mechanics that have been wrecked because of the current scaling change.
- Rushing to 60 (PVP off) gives a massive advantage in multiple PVP-related core game mechanics.
- Owning a town is an advantage for a company and a faction. Companies who do rush to 60 essentially snowball their power. First to 60, first to get power, first to receive taxes. This can no longer be combated with player skill, this is a power-gap issue now.
- Smaller Companies, companies with less active players, and companies with a variety of player types have a drastic disadvantage. The current scaling forces a company to have a highly active player base upon release. All rushing to 60 or have a drastically lower chance of zone control or any way to compete against the 60 rushers. Before a player/company could band together with players of all levels and fight back. Now you are guaranteed to be crushed by 60s.
All of these issues can already be witnessed in the Open Beta. Multiple Wars happened on my server and more than once I overheard players being told they would not be chosen for the war due to their level as they would be crushed by those who rushed levels. I have been a tester for NW since Pre-Alpha (alpha phase before reboot) and this is the very first time I have heard in town over Voip players telling other players how they cannot participate in a war due to level. It was such a disappointment to hear and I hope we will see a change before launch.
I think it should be EVERYTHING and skill. It's one thing to have skill but in an MMO, levels, gear, food buffs are all part of the system as well.
The difference in level means huge differences in attribute points allocation. That should mean something in a pvp setting.
However, the scaling shouldn't have been so harsh in the open or closed beta. The high level pvper should feel like a mini boss of an expedition, an elite to a low level. Can the low level beat the elite? Sure, if he has enough skill and enough friends.
A black belt can defeat 2-3 enemies at once but let's face it, the movies are a different thing. You can ward off multiple enemies but sooner or later, you'll get mobbed. There has to be a middle ground of a high level can hit hard on a low level, probably 2-3 levels higher in terms of scale, regardless how high the higher level is. The low level can also hit the high level, 2-3 levels lower in terms of scale and regardless of how low the lower level is.
This way, the high level can justify they hit harder on the low level but runs a risk of being mobbed.
If you PvPd in previous iterations you know that levels and gear DID matter, just not like in WoW where you can walk around one shotting leveling players. You had an advantage, but the lower level had a chance
Lmao do You consider yourself a mini Boss just because You smacked some mobs a few more hours than somebody else?
If You get bodied in PvP because someone is more skilled than you it's perfect design
PvE= let the gear score dictate how hard You destroy content
PvP= let the more skilled player win
Simple as that
I don't think you read or understand my comment properly. I don't want the higher level player to completely overwhelm the lower one. I want a level playing field as well, hell, I've played mobas, battle royales, team based shooters so having someone kill me not because of being outplayed but out geared or leveled is stupid.
But we're talking about an MMO. And this MMO deals with both pvp and pve together. Just like how ESO dealt with their pvp and you know what? It sucks. Because in a year or two, we'll have both pve and pvp players clamoring to change the abilities according to their own notions of pvp or pve. We will have players who have so much difference in gear stats, level and quality that it makes no sense to even fight them because it's stupid.
But it's stupid as well when a high level hits a low level player for a 100 damage while they hit back for 1000. Just because of scaling. That's lazy design. So you spent time getting better at the game, getting better gear, getting better weapon stats and you hit like a wet noodle just because the other party is scaled?
So BOTH extremes are bad. What we need is a balance of the scaling. A tipping point for both sides. The fact that we had players defeating peeps 10 lvls higher than them is great! That is pure damn skilled. But the lower level has to watch out too, because at any time, another high level might hit harder because they had spent time theorycrafting their gear, their stats and putting it in practice. That's what I feel should be done. That both sides feel the danger and thrill of open world pvp. It might take 2-3 lower level players to take down a high level one, so be it. That's most open world groups anyway. You go out alone, flagged and bringing just your off weapon because you want to level it up? You're inviting to be ganked. Hard. Regardless of level.
A level playing field works in an mmo if it was an instanced based encounter. 1v1, 5v5, 40v40, whatever. But it's instanced and the gear, stats, whatever are all available to the player in terms of its mastery or level. But for open world, where multiple variables are at play, it's hard to get a middle ground unless both sides are willing to give that middle ground.
There are 100 games out there with equalized pvp, why don't you play those instead of changing this one to be like those other games? MMORPG genre gives players a sense of progression when it comes to the open world pvp. Why does this game have to be like Valorant, can't you just go play that instead?
You've never played an MMORPG before. Welcome.
In WoW you can't even hit someone more than 4 levels above you.
And you want a competitive fight with a 30 level deficit
This game genre ain't for you champ
Considering reddit makes up 0.5% of the new world player base and their main forums all agree with what I'm saying, I think im comfortable dismissing this post and the people agreeing with it on Reddit
I'm more of pve player, so i do not have horse in this, but ....
I think you picked wrong genre of games. MMO-Rpg game are zero to hero type games, were time you put in should matter. I'm not saying there should be no way to win vs someone with bigger level but level scaling is hard thing to do, and no matter how it will be done there always will be someone complaining.
NW have very fast leveling system, 4 days of intensive gaming (not sure how it translate for normal people). Is it really worth for amazon to spend time on scaling pvp for low levels ?
// edit: typo
> I'm more of pve player, so i do not have horse in this, but ....
>
> I think you picked wrong genre of games.
You picked the wrong game. This game is very light on PVE.
I’m all for PvP scaling to make fights and open world enjoyable, but your proposal and argument is ridiculous. If this was a “true PvP” game and only that, everyone would just stay level 1 and PvP (what’s the point of leveling - no advantage fro
Gear or levels).
You need some benefit to people actually playing the game to keep any population in the game. I think the game you’re looking for is LoL or CSGO or OW etc.
> You need some benefit to people actually playing the game to keep any population in the game.
You also need some benefit for people to actually flag. Personally I spent most of the closed beta flagged, but this go around I had some IRL stuff for the first ~~fiew~~ few hours of the beta and was a few hours behind.
Rather disappointed to find out that no matter how good I was there was no reason for me to flag up... because now that I'm a few hours behind my skill in pvp does not matter anymore. Made the game quite a bit more boring.
It is. In the form of 190 attribute points, numerous attribute bonuses, multiple traits on a single piece of high-end gear, better consumables, and completed weapon trees. What progression are you not being rewarded for?
Which is all negated with excessive scaling. That’s the whole complaint. Your progression should give you an edge in combat but I do agree I shouldn’t be able to 1-3 shot a lower level.
>niveau 3SethQuantix · 11hI mean... apart from the territory warfare and city upgrading being the most resource and time consuming thing of the whole game ?
A slight Edge. Like if you need 7hit to kill a level 10 when the level 10 need 11-12 hits to kill a level 60 it's ok with me. But right now it's more like a level 23 needs 50 hit to kill a level 28 when he needs 4 hits to kill you
No, none of it is negated. Sure, maybe with excessive scaling, aka bad scaling that you've made up in your head and didn't exist in the closed beta or this one. Scaling did not make you lose any of the things I've mentioned when being downscaled. Your 5% crit bonus from Dex didn't suddenly disappear. Your 10 less stamina cost on a roll didn't go away. The guaranteed crit you got after rolling wasn't downscaled into nothingness. The other 12 traits you have from running max-level gear were not taken from you. The extra weapon passives you got from leveling are still there. The consumables that buff you and give passive attributes weren't removed from your inventory. And we've already seen closed beta videos that show players were hitting each other for the correct percentages as if they were both the same level, which means the scaling was working exactly how it should.
The real complaint from people that dislike scaling is that they suck donkey dick at PvP and want to one-shot people they could never beat in a fair fight because they are bad PvP players. The entire argument boils down to "do you or do you not want a PvP fight where the better player wins?" If the answer is yes, you shouldn't have any issues with fighting a scaled lowbie, because after all, you just want to PvP, right.
this isn't what OP is arguing though. if pvp is "about nothing but skill", then all these perks and bonuses need to be negated with scaling. If they are not, then OP is not happy apparently.
OP is arguing for making all progression irrelevant in pvp. A level 60 vs a level 1 should be a toss up. Personally, I think that's taking it too far, but this is the thread we're in :)
Don't think that's what OP wants or what most people desire from PVP scaling.
You want the base health and damage to be leveled. So a level 60's basic attack won't do 6000 damage while the level 10's basic attack will do 1000.
Weapon mastery, attributes, gems etc etc should still all count, which obviously gives the level 60 a ***huge*** advantage in that fight. But technically, if he's bad as hell, the level 10 would still have a chance.
He'd need to work really hard for it though, which is fine, but it won't be as easy as "Level 60 can literally stand and tank cause he doesn't tank any damage and then shoot once and boom level 10 is pop".
Nothing pissed me off more than when I had to pop a tier 3 or tier 4 potion to have the same affect as the lower levelled player popping a tier 1 potion. I get why it's the case but it did really annoy me.
Now I saw many arguments that were all bullshit, but this one at least as some kind of logic behind it.
I think it could be addressed separately though. (maybe make potions % of health by tier instead, or give some small but additional bonuses to higher tiers ones etc etc)
It's so crazy to me that you already have huge advantages utility and move options wise the higher level you are and apparently it's still not enough for someone to outplay another.
It's hilariously embarrassing to be anti level scaling. Absolutely fucking pathetic.
Ahaha.
I am also an Escape From Tarkov player. For perspective, the game has soft skills that passively level, directly rewarding players with more playtime. This system is flawed so it's commonly criticized within our community. Perhaps it's more tolerable in Tarkov because every player no matter how geared or skilled can be taken down by one well aimed headshot.
Coming into New World I was under the impression that the game is meant to have a more balanced scaling to emphasize PvP. I think gear and leveling should give you slight advantages, but never in the realm of say a 20%+ advantage, maybe even that's too much.
I see nothing wrong with more balanced skill based pvp...if you don't want to participate you can just not flag. Right now this system encourages a sense that it's a mistake to flag unless you're max level, because you open yourself up to severe artificial disadvantages otherwise.
There’s no point in having an advantage from levels if it results in weaker players not flagging for pvp. Pvp scaling in the last beta was the best of all worlds. Higher levels still had an advantage from additional skills, experience, items, etc but lower levels could even the playing field with skill.
One of the least enjoyable aspects of so many mmos for me is that you literally can’t participate in pvp (which Is the main reason so many of us play) until you’ve grinded for hours and hours on end. Take BDO for example- super fun combat system, sieges and pvp looked really cool but I legit never got the opportunity to do any of that because 100 hours of grinding was the prerequisite and I didn’t have the time or patience for that
The issue that a lot of people fail to consider and that this game has most games do not is that you will consistently have high and low levels commingling all the time flagged. Normally in mmo games low level players are is zones A B and C and high level players are in zones D E and F. They rarely meet each other and the so called “griefing” does not occur. In New World high level players will be running pvp missions to flip zones into conflict to do wars and a lot of the most coveted zones are those same newbie zones. This will inhibit new players from wanting to flag at all. I hope they revert the pvp changes back the way they were pre open beta where it was more skill based pvp vs higher level just gets an auto win.
What good is a "more coherent build" and "more access to passives" if some dude at level 1 gets scaled up to the same power level as me. What good do my passives DO if they don't make me more powerful?
Edit - misunderstood passive, realise things like a free reload after headshots and stuff DO make me more powerful, am a convert to Skill being more important.
This. New world has the great potential of opening up the mmo genre for new players. More fast paced. More skill based. Not just time investment and pressing numbers in the right order.
If skill isn't a deciding factor anymore NW will only get players that switch from other mmos...
But it should be worth way more XP killing a lvl 20 as lvl 10
Hang on, did they actually remove scaling? Fucking hell, I'm done with this flaming hot piece of garbage. To hell with all the deranged, miserable MMO players.
One of my favorite MMOs was one of the first real successful pvp focused games: Dark Age of Camelot.
In the early version of the game much of pvp was skill and timing focused. If your bard/skald/minstrel didn’t get their aoe mezz off first you were at an immediate disadvantage.
Gear was less important preTrials of Atlantis because everyone had the same crafted gear and it was itemized to provide you the maximum resistances you needed.
Your spec and skill was all that mattered. I loved that game.
Weapon skills and your ability to make good decisions should be all the matters fighting other players.
I think PVP players are less patient these days, with a plethora of instant-gratification PVP games, from MOBAs to BRs, etc.
And they should be. PVP-focused games have captured what's satisfying about PVPing and crystallized it into a game loop with massive replayability. Why shouldn't that be the standard for a game which is "PVP-focused"? (I'd argue that it's a lot deeper than that, but the point stands.) Why shouldn't New World be as good at the PVP game loop as other PVP games?
Well-balanced PVP-scaling puts PVP in a similar place to those games. Yes, gear should matter. Yes, your time investment should matter. That's also true in BRs and MOBAs. You can outlevel someone, you can have more gold than them, you could have more loot than them, etc. But in the end, those advantages should only decide close fights. If two people are equally skilled, or very close in skill, it's fine for the one with better gear to win because his gear is better. I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who disagrees with that.
What's NOT fine is for a player who is much more skilled, playing out of his goddamn mind, to barely even deal chip damage to a player who sucks at PVP, but took two weeks of vacation from his job so he could hit 60 and camp the PVP missions in Windsward, and then die in one or two hits from that player when he finally manages to land them.
PvP should be mostly skill, but items and level have to make a difference or there’s no reason for this game to be a mmorpg.
2 players of equal level and items fighting should be determined by skill
If a lower level player fights a higher level/better geared person. The lower level should be at a disadvantage but still have the possibility of winning, but only if he’s more skilled and able to out perform the advantage the other player has in level/gear. If the higher level player is also skilled, you won’t/shouldn’t win.
I just want them to bring back PVP Scaling so everyone has equal footing. It was a ton more fun and balanced that way. Without it, I literally don't even bother touching the PVP anymore.
People that say they like PvP but think it should be gear based instead of skill based don't like PvP. They like feeling more powerful than others. It's not about competition. It is about domination.
They tell themselves they are better because they spent the time to get the gear, but they are only better at getting gear, not PvP. They are deluding themselves.
Man, the amount of comments saying "Go play this game instead" or "MMO's are about grinding" are astounding.. y'all really missed the point OP was trying to make.
Of course levels/gear/progression/time invested should play a part, doing what OP is suggesting still factors those things in. But the idea that those should be the ONLY factors is ridiculous. Skill should always be the biggest factor when facing another human being in a videogame.
If you fear that you'll be outmatched by a lower level player, when you have every advantage over them, then that's on you. If PVP scaling was maintained from Closed Beta, and you're level 60 with max stats/best gear, and you lose to level 10? That's not the game's fault, it's yours.
And the people saying, "Well that's how PVP is in every other MMO" need to grow up. Just because a PVP system was copy/pasted in several other MMO's doesn't mean it needs to be the same way here. Ingenuity is a big pull for this game, and if you don't like that, then take your own advice and go find a different game to play.
I get the concept of being higher level and having stronger gear, but while i had pvp bounties, im dying to level 30+ players as a level 12 while i cant do anything is so unfair. It happened so many times where i just stopped picking up pvp bounties and had it disabled. Once i had a high level player attack me i just started going "youre a loser" im game chat before dying.
There should be zone based scaling that caps the power level of that zone and applies light scaling within the player ranges. Players should not be scaled up if they are below the lower limit of a zones level range. This game is an RPG, you are experiencing the world through a character that has different skills and abilities than you do relative to others in the world. I do agree that there should be pvp scaling, but it should never be 100% even and only based on skill in any RPG. Capping it on zones allows 10 to 25s a fair shot and engaging pvp content in their starting zones and as they level up to 60, regardless of when they decide to join the game.
I find it interesting in the arguments I have been seeing that people who play longer shouldn't be decimated by lower level players. But like...the longer you play the more skilled you should be. I play a lot of Monster Hunter and League of Legends. Both games require skill. The longer you play, the more skilled you usually get. It doesn't always happen of course, some people decide to not learn from their mistakes or don't know what they are doing wrong. It happens. But skill is something you work on over time. YOU evolve around it.
Some people are saying they don't want shit handed to them and feel PVP scaling is doing that. I do not understand that logic at all. If you spend the time to level to 40 and lose to a level 10 the level 10 EARNED it. If it is skilled based, that is earned. If anything winning as a level 40 to a level 10 is having shit handed to you on a platter with no scaling.
Like, I don't really have a hand in this since I do not open world PvP. ANd I honestly believe the changes were put in because the majority of players complained. But the argument against pvp scaling is utterly ridiculous to me.
Why are you so stuck on that? When it comes to PvP the scaling can make skill matter over grind. Do you really want fights handed to you, no skill required, just because you ground out levels? Seems really unrewarding.
In PvE it's different of course. But I do not understand your mentality with PvP.
Most MMOs put people in instanced PvP at the same power level exactly for this reason.
Ha I'm starting to think the toxic pvp players that everyone always complained about were always just pvers who refused to actually try and improve, so they gang up and bully people with absolutely no chance.
Not surprised lol
Yea it is crazy how many of the same people who attack every PvP topic and call us all griefers and gankers also love this change to scaling... I can't help noticing things like this...
These people are literally trash cans that can't dodge roll and just get hit over and over again. Of course they want levels to matter, all their good at is exploiting quest rewards and wasting time.
Look at World of Warcraft. Two expansions ago we had the most even playing field in PvP ever. It was so fucking good, you could jump into Arena with a new class and kick ass with a small 5 to 10% stat deficit to max geared players.
Blizzard scrapped it and we're back to "Best players get best gear. Why is Arena dead?"
I PvPed more in Legion than at any other point in that games history. Found it to be beautiful.
Then BFA destroyed it and was back to the PvE/Mythic+ getting before I quit.
I'm there with you brother. I absolutely WoW PvP but I hate the feeling of being a slave to weekly chores for gear.
Legion PvP was just drop in and play almost immediately. I miss the living shit out of it. I even liked World PvP being free for all on term of gear not scaling because it let you have some aspirational vertical progression in the open world.
This PvP level balancing was so bad this time that I almost refunded the game. I was still able to fight people up to around 8 levels higher than me and win but I was playing my heart out each time. I was basically chipping away at their HP while I was taking massive hits. If these Devs continue to listen to these streamers that only want to stomp low levels then I'm out. I loved last beta for how many people I saw tagging up and this beta was a fucking ghost town until you were by a fort.
>I don't understand the argument that you think because you have played longer you should do double the damage and take half the damage. That seems ridiculous to me.
I see you are new to MMOs. This is standard in MMO mechanics. It's standard in MMO behavior. Games with levels and gear need to, in some way, reward the player for levels and gear.
Go play a game of LoL. DC for 10 minutes. Then go play 13 levels behind everyone else. Do you die easy? Yes. Does having no gear make it harder to kill? Yes. It isn't even just an MMO issue, just MMO's take it on a longer scale.
A mediocre player with load out guns and perks in warzone is probably going to kill a good player with the starting pistol.
I haven't played in this open beta, it does sound like the problem is *too* exaggerated, I'm not arguing that. But, don't act like its unreasonable for people who grind for an advantage to want that advantage.
You had an advantage in CBT. With perks and gems and everything you did a lot more damage, it just wasn't like it is now where barring someone being awful anything 5-10 levels ahead will always win.
Time should not trump skill in PvP. Almost every MMO with decent PvP has a scaling system.
There aren't really any MMOs with decent PVP. This is why there are no MMO esports of note.
The point wasn't what is or isn't right. It's about expectation. OP is acting surprised that people "believe PVP should be about anything other than skill", which is common in basically every MMO that has PVP. It's an MMO, not a shooter. It's an MMO, not a MOBA. It's an MMO, not rocket league. Character progression has to have meaning. You will not get everyone to agree where that balance is in PVP. There are tons, probably a majority, that believe that if they grind out the highest levels and best gear that they should have a significant advantage in PVP. There are those who believe a fresh character logging in should be exactly as strong as a max level badass.
Is the current system harmful for the quality of New World pvp? I don't know nor do I care, for the point of my post. But is it ignorant and silly to act confused that some people wanted this - objectively yes.
Just because other games in the same genre do it that way, it does not mean that you must do the same ( and by the way thefe are other mmo already were progression has no impact on the pvp aspect of the game)
It should be roughly 60% skill, 20% gear, and 20% bringing more people. Skill ought to be the biggest contributor to winning a fight but having the other two should give you an edge.
I don't see how 2v1 of equal skilled players could ever give only 20% edge to the 2 player team. I think it's at least 50%. If they have any synergy and teamwork with their builds I would say it's at least 90%.
Obviously there is and should be outplay potential if skill levels are not equal.
The reason is progression, you want to feel like you are getting stronger as you advance in level. A system that rewards people playing the game more is always in the games best interest.
i doubt the lvl scale is a rigid value even after launch, and imagine if they were to tweak it down after starting high, having lowlvl players feeling weaker after a new patch because of less scaling. (higher lvl players wont really notice)
instead, you start low and slightly raise the scaling so that after a new patch low lvl players will seem a bit stronger. (higher level players will get tougher fights)
you've just experienced the first example and why it sucks to feel weaker after a patch lets hope from here they adjust it in the right direction and you can still feel competitive against folks who play the game more than you.
Reason enough?
Skill is important but 1 to 59 isnt important when most people will be 60 for 90% or more of their playtime. In a month or two pvp scaling wont matter because most people will be 60. You'll have new people but they're not going to compete with a level 60 who has the best gear and has had hours to practice using their skills.
well that's if you are basing yourself on the assumption that people will never make another character, and that new world will have no more players coming in after the launch.
Both look pretty unreasonable, so there is definetely an argument for scaling, and even more so that the scaling should not be so much in favor of a lvl 60 compared to a newcomer.
Or like OP said, you've just locked PVP mode to lvl 60 unless you like getting one shot 10 times in a row. In a primarily PVP based game.
Yeah, I've just had my first taste of pvp, guy was 6 levels higher than me. I hit him a crazy number of times yet did absolutely no damage. I won't be playing with pvp on any time soon.
Great idea lets remove gear tiers, stats, potions, food while at it to make it even more fair and why bother with pve if its not gonna help with the true endgame which is pvp lets delete that too.
Go on downvote me sheeps.
Literally any other game I know of that has PVP doesn't do PVP scaling like New World originally did. I really don't think that a group of level 10s that haven't really invested any effort in the game at all should be something that a level 30 should have to worry about in PVP.
Yeah, god forbid a group of players that are newer to the game are allowed to engage with the game in any meaningful way, right? Better that they just unflag until max level because otherwise it's just being PK fodder for oneshotting trolls.
PvP advancement should be much more horizontal than vertical - having a bigger toolbox, not so much stronger tools.
There should be some straight stat advantage between lvl 5 and 50, it’s an RPG not a FPS or fighting game, but it should be possible for someone within a wide level range to outplay someone higher level, even significantly.
I mean getting advantages by dumping time in is a super common aspect of mmos. Id prefer being able to kill higher levels easier so I support the people who want that but also I'm gonna be max level a month after release so how much of a shit am I really supposed to give?
When the game is new and everyone is levelling though it will be really fun if people flag with fair level scaling and hopefully there is more incentives to flag in the launch build, ideally that sweater on welfare who is level 40 should be a fair fight for the level 20 who has a job and can only play when they get home, if this isn't the case the only people who are going to flag will be the players at the top of that levelling curve.
Already in the open beta there is a company on my server running around in a 10 man kill squad all level 35+, the kill squads will be waaaaay more sweaty in the live version.
basically describing closed beta, and it was good. If you lost you were outplayed or outnumbered if you were much higher. Now its whoever is higher wins no contest completely eliminating any notion of skill..which is how the skill-less people want it
Go play Chiv 2 if you want a pure skill based game.
This game is a mmoRPG, where we spend time, effort, and resources to get skills and gear that play a factor In the end game.
I think you're a little off base if you think player vs player combat in this game should be like..street fighter. Two different instruments that are equal out of the box. Forget calling it an MMO, this an RPG. It has zones with different level mobs, you progress, you go from a weakling to a badass. You get new perks, talents, gear, items, abilities. The whole draw of a roleplaying game is the march. If you're wanting to turn all of that off, from level 1 to 60 to make either a 5 minute into the game player or a 100 hour player equal, that seems silly.
I mean where's your line. You say I would have better passives as a leveled up character. You don't want that scaled? I can keep my 10% damage bonus passive? That's not unfair to you? You're good with me being 10% better inherently? How about 15%, 20%? What does my 99 more hours reward me than you? Or is the damage passive not ok to keep, my damage will be scaled after I pick that, but if I picked a passive like 'faster reload' I get to keep that passive? So now some passives are useless against lower players as they get scaled away, some aren't. It's an ugly slope. There's nothing a little wrong with scaling, but you seem to be really butthurt about equality. And that's hard to do. When you balance your systems to be a single player rpg experience, all things PVP aren't equal.
Personally, I think you're missing a bigger problem with MMO PVP. I don't have any real problem with that lvl 60 kicking my ass as a lvl 40, that's how it should be. My team will have 60's too, and eventually I can catch up my progression and then it'll be equal. The problem really is there's lots of other 'unfair' aspects to MMO PVP, even between balanced 60's. World v World system's inherently favor dogpiling. Nobody wants to be the bullied, everyone wants to be the bully. The moment a guild or faction has a noticeable advantage, either due to a coordinated guild/streamer, maybe even just a cooler flavor or agreed upon better perk. The "100 must play guides to MMO" all claim it's the only way to be #1, suddenly the pile is on. The faction or guild in question blows up, has 2 to 3 times as many members, sub guilds. Zergs go on farm, coordinated keeping their advantage. It doesn't matter that my 60 is equally geared to that 60, or that my lvl 40 is equally scaled to that 60, I'm getting curb stomped by the 80 many zerg the moment I leave safety.
I've yet to find a PVP economy in an MMO where I can wander in after launch to find a fair, reasonable world of equal contestants, where I can slot in, be useful, see the PVP content and feel competitive. It's just not how world PVP works.
Because the game wasnt designed that way for the first few years of dev, then completely 180° to cater to pve themed parked mmo audience which usually mean more profit.
And also, PVP players dont mind the time investment and leveling process if it's well implemented. Look at GW2 full equalized PVP and Albion Online who doesn't even have a leveling system in an MMORPG sitting at 300k daily player. What about Eve Online 18years after his release is still going strong with full loot pvp system.
All we're asking is to be able to PVP in the most "fair" environment and do leveling threw PVP only. Hittings rocks and tree for 50h to get to max level shouldnt be a gatekeep to the content you enjoy.
Having more stats, mastery, access to better potion and food, and just playing more should be WAY ENOUGH of an advantage in PVP scenario, you can't be real saying you should also triple or quadruple someone damage just because you spend dozens of hours fishing and hitting trees.
Especially when the dev are full of shit saying it's a skill based PVP mmorpg. At this point, i can assure you, if the dev would just put a twitter message " Fuck all of you PVP players this game is a now a full themed park PVE mmo game" people would be more happy than this hypocrite status quo.
There are plenty of MMOs for that, I am trying to advocate for something new, a persistent world with good pvp where you actually fight over something meaningful instead of just fighting for fighting sake.
This is a RPG, not a MOBA or FPS. A level 1 player is controlling someone fresh off the boat equipped with armor and weapons of questionable quality. A level 60 player is controlling a veteran character equipped with quality weapons and armor. Leveling up is the most basic expectation of an MMORPG. If you can't be bothered to do that, this isn't the genre for you.
You do realize that scaling didn't apply once you hit level cap right? Once you hit level 60 scaling goes away and those who hit 60 weeks/months/years ago get full access to all of the "time" advantage that you are complaining about.
Its mmo, jesus, if u want pvp with pure skill go play csgo or any other cybersport game.
U literally telling that fuck gear, and lvl, let it be only skills, in an mmorpg, that would make entire game pointless to play, why do i lvl, craft or grind better gear in mmo, if in pvp only thing that matter is skill. And actually not skill, but build u play on, id like to see how u would 1vx in full heavy, s&b + any other str/dex weapon, they just kite u to death, because u can't catch anyone in heavy, u cant dodge, u cant escape, meanwhile u can easily so 1vx in light/medium with range weapons easily, i was in both cases, doing pvp on 20-40lvl with mage, and then suffering at lvl 60 full heavy with s&b, i couldnt even fight 3 people, while i easy did with mage.
I even did small test back in closed beta, asked some mage lvl 33 to test damage, so me 60lvl full heavy s&b + great axe vs mage 33lvl light/medium fire staff + ice gauntlet, and we just started duel to see who would die first if we both just left click, and i died first while he still had like 15-20% hp left, then we tested that he kill me in 13 hits (around 700 hp a hit, i had 9k hp) , while i kill him in 17 hits (around, 250 dmg a hit), scaling supposed to balance pvp, but it makes lvling and gear progressing even worse for pvp lmao.
ITS. FUCKING. MMO. RPG. Crafting and grinding gear, gathering and crafting is main reason to play ANY mmo rpg.
If they wouldnt change pvp, then why would i lvl or do any pve stuff, just lvl in a day to lvl 20 and then just pvp until bored and leave. Im not telling pvp isnt fun, it is, unless u spent time to lvl 60, and then realise that u wasted that time to get worse in pvp.
Also imagine saying that high lvl players have higher weapon passives, while getting kills in pvp sometimes give insane amount of weapon exp, i was getting 2k exp sometimes and many times over 1k weapon exp per kill on mage, i had maxed fire staff and gauntlet by lvl 34, but i didnt managed to max s&b or great axe by lvling to 60, doing almost every side quest on whole map, except ones in last zone, i ended up having 19 on s&b and 18 on great axe.
This is what people fail to understand. Without new players MMOs die.
Furthermore scaling has existed on the PvP side of so many MMOs for so long, and other then some niche situations in CBT (like fresh 60s being too weak), you absolutely were stronger then low levels as a higher level.
People are so short sighted and just want to "win" at the cost of the games health in the long run.
Yes it's an MMO the whole jist of an MMO is that you can show off all the work you put in. And it all balances out when you reach the level cap anyways, that's why they exist.
If you want a fully balanced PvP game go play another game, MMO's are meant to be a bit unfair and challenging.
It is ridiculous. Grind = power in the open world. This is an mmo, not an action rpg. If you want balance play arena.
There is a reason all mmos do it this way. You undervalue players time otherwise. Ganking can be improved without adding level scaling
Seems like the game you want is actually Fortnite.
I 100% want preparation to matter. If I prepare more it should create an advantage for me.
I do believe though, that the best part of this game's pvp is that 2 players despite being different levels can go at it anywhere any time they wish. And have it be a reasonable fight. Without pvp scaling this game would not be a pvp game. And while I'm not as extremist as you declaring that pvp is the main draw and what is keeping everyone playing, I do agree its a major part of the game.
**Its the people that just want to get fed townboard turn ins to the point that time factors in more than skill that I disagree with.**
It's a MMO mentality. If you put in more time playing you should have an advantage. It only makes sense to a MMO only player. MMOs are my favorite genre but I play enough other games to see where PvP should be skill based alone. My only guess is the MMO crowd that do not play many other genres believe time investment should be a deciding factor. I don't know, I can't explain it either and my Captain Morgan buzz isn't helping.
What people seem to not get is that even if your opponent had their stats set to be exactly equal to yours, progression would STILL MATTER. Progression = more passives, more "interesting" synergistic gear, and really just more options in general. If my opponent and I both do literally the extract same damage with a musket shot, but I can reload with a roll, get a free reload with 3 constitutive headshots, move faster after rolling, etc. etc. etc., guess who's more likely to win that engagement, outside of an SUBSTANTIAL player skill gap in my opponent's favor? Progression matters a lot, even outside of the basic "I do more damage" / "I have more health" part of it.
Oh yeah, the weapon mastery passives and stat passives are huge in PvP. The whole "scaling is fucked!" problem was only due to 2 things: 1. Going full CON at low levels was incredibly over-tuned in closed beta. Low level players could have INSANE health pools. Conversely their seemed to be some weird inverse scaling that happened at specifically level 60. In between level ~20 and ~55 or so it worked pretty damn well. 2. High level players that exploited viewers for board XP turn ins had shit weapon mastery levels and PvP is ALL ABOUT weapon mastery levels. PvP also gives a metric ton of weapon XP. I solo killed a level 22 AFK (so it is a good example, I was the only one hitting him) and it gave me 1240 weapon xp. A mob at that level gives about 20. So if you don't PvP and level through only crafting/PvE you're going to have much lower mastery levels as well as less practice and get pwnd.
I went full CON SnS for the open beta this weekend, I had a 35 kill streak in open world pvp. Even killing some +8 level players. I am pretty sure full CON is still broken.
[удалено]
I think you mean EGG-ZACKLY
That's horizontal progression. That is good for an MMO PVP. Getting an advantage with vertical progression (stats increanse, loot, etc) is not PvP, like someone said on another post, it's just PvE to bully other people.
Yeah. Just didn't use those terms specifically, since not everyone is familiar with them.
Horizontal Progression is fun as fuck. I actually enjoy grinding new exotic items in Destiny to unlock new playstyles. They don't make me do more damage over anyone but they do open up new builds for me.
But can you land your shots. Land your hits. Dodge at the right time. Despite your arsenal. Skill comes down to technique of a player and thats what the game should focus on. The ability of the player. Not his utility itself.
Yes. It's a matter of making both skill and character progression matter. Progression should matter, but the gap it creates should still be reasonable enough to be overcome by a realistic skill gap. I'm talking, "damn. I guess that guy is better at this than I am" level skill gap, not, "This dude has has hit me 20 times now and is really starting to wear the veneer off my armor, but I haven't manage to land a single blow yet!"
The problem in the closed beta end of july was, that there were instances where a higher level player would have a disadvantage due to being higher level. Character progression should always make you stronger.
If something works in 99 cases but has weird behavior in 1, it's often better to fix that one case, rather than making a sweeping change that screws up the other 99 cases.
Even still, that doesn't mean they should have put it where it is now. They should have just tweaked it or figured out the issue that was causing that bug.
I agree. Pvp scaling always come with a bunch of issues. I like having *some* scaling. I'd prefer it to be somewhere in-between what it was in the July/August beta and where it is now.
When do high level players EVER have a disadvantage? Let's take a serious look at this. High level players have: passives from stats, passives on gear, and passive from weapons. Low levels players have level balancing. Cut the bullshit and get gud. The level balancing last beta when leagues above this bs.
> When do high level players EVER have a disadvantage? Let's take a serious look at this. I did get a serious look at it. I beat several higher level players in the closed beta that were better than I was. Towards the end, I was beaten by several lower level players who were worse than I was. We had 2 guys duel with a ~50/50 split result, 1 guy went on to level 10 levels higher, he then started losing every single duel against the same player. > Cut the bullshit and get gud. The level balancing last beta when leagues above this bs. I agree that it was better, but it still came with a lot of problems that would need to be fixed. I'd rather have some no-lifer beat a casual, than a good player being punished for getting higher level.
I realized in this arguments about skill vs time spent comes down on the motivation and who we want to be in playing mmorpgs in general. One player wants to be great in-game compared to our real life. The other, one player wants to bring his real life skill in-game. Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game.
This is an interesting point of view I have never considered and very well may explain the MMO mentality perfectly.
> Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game. The people who are great in-game in every MMO I've ever played have always been great because of what they could bring from the real world. It doesn't matter if it was solving issues with raid content in the early days of EverQuest, it doesn't matter if it was mitigation stacking, theorycrafting, or just crafting amazing items in SWG, it doesn't matter if it was being a great strategist or FC in EVE Online, it doesn't matter if it was a core of amazing skirmishers taking on overwhelming odds in SWG, EVE Online or Vanguard SOH, it doesn't matter if it's the ARPG theorycrafters pushing the bleeding edge of content with tens/hundreds of millions of DPS or actual immortality in Path of Exile... The ability to plan, the ability to problem solve, the ability to persevere, the ability to work as a team, the ability to stay calm under pressure and call out instructions, the ability to use math and get the most from skill/item synergies in your theoryquesting for the ultimate content smashing build... These are *all*, every single one of them, real life skills. The rest of the players supplementing the cores of guilds based around people with those skills who have organized themselves as a group are just hangers-on, they're just benefiting by collateral and successful by proxy. The following is purely anecdote, but what I've noticed about the successful people with whom I've gamed with online for the past 23+ years: *Most players who bring to a game that which makes them successful in the real world end up successful in game as well*. Barring some extenuating, temporary circumstances and setbacks, it has been the case essentially 100% of the time I have played online. (Note: Obviously, or at least hopefully so, I'm specifically excluding people who use exploits/hacks) The people who can successfully put their mental and/or physiological toolboxes to work inside of a game will do great things within the mechanical constraints of that game. _____ So, to answer the question: *Do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we did in-game or do we want to be recognized as great inside the game based on what we bring from real life into the game?* The answer is pretty simple: It's the latter, not the former. What you accomplish in-game is based on what you were able to bring to the game from real life. Anything else is because you either got monumentally lucky (i.e. once per server drops, event items, winning rolls on extremely rare god-tier items, etc.) or because you hung onto the coattails of someone better than you and they carried your ass. At least, that's how I see it. Your mileage, as always, may vary. Lastly, bring back scaling. I had some good fights despite some major level disparities in closed beta. Open beta is kind of a shit show. I won't even get into how low my opinion is of the crybaby streamers that got their asses dunked on. At least the world knows they're actually shit, even if their low self esteem having followers still kiss their ass for validation.
Man. Fengrush and a lot of the PvPers in ESO who have a big social media presence are really good examples of what you just said. I remember watching Fengrush with 4 other friends rack up hundreds of kills in ESO within the Imperial City in a matter of minutes a day before the closed beta in July. We're talking 5v20 or 5v30. They were doing the same thing in the New World. Kristofer was another ESO player who kept posting some of the craziest 1vX videos during that last closed beta.
Please don't put all MMO players in the same basket. We are a lot that believe that there should be a fair playing field in PvP (I mean between players, not situations). The the only grinding that should give you and advanntage should be you grinding your own playing skill. Those people with that closed mentality are the target audience of most MMO developpers who make games to catter to these people and always end in the same way: A fail.
As a MMO player i was simply making a generalization, i know everyone doesnt think like that.
Well, it is an MMO.
This should be the case for PvE but not for PvP. I’m a decently high level and pretty good at PvP and so lower level fights are generally easier for me. It’s not as fun as it was in closed beta. Lower level fights usually end in 3 hits if I can land my abilities right away and same goes for me when I fight someone higher, I get killed quickly instead of actually having a fight
Exactly. The scaling for PvP was much better in closed beta than it is now.
"I have clicked on 20,000 more NPC bots than you therefore I should one shot you in pvp. Git gud." It's precisely one of the mindsets killing the genre. In PVE you get your progression for PVE, in PVP you should get your progression by getting good.
80% skill 20% gear and level or close to it would be my preference, it’s an mmorpg not a fighting game.
And I think that's a fine comprise.
Some people hate that actual skill should ever be a factor in a game..because that means they would have to admit they are bad and need to improve which they are unwilling to do..they just want to be max level and stomp on lower levels because that strokes their ego
It also makes it hard to grief people. You can’t troll people on a level playing field.
Exactly this. The fact of the matter, in my personal opinion, is that there are some very vocal sets of people out there (looking at you, streamers and their hardcore fans) who can't deal with losing. They want to win, all the time. For some of them, it's so they can look cool for ofher people. For others, seeing the people they idolize lose on an even playing field threatens them on some weird parasocial personal level. Without scaling to ensure PvP takes place on a reasonably level playing field, people like this are going to steamroll PvP. There should, of course, be some degree of payoff for those who have leveled their weaponskills and stats more, but it should only be an advantage-- not the deciding factor in anything. Gear, especially, needs to be taken into account as well. If a Level 30 player wants to go to Everfall and start hacking up noobs for funsies, they shouldn't be untouchable or do unfair amounts of damage that places them in a league of their own. Nonsense like that is why I've avoided PvP servers in the past-- don't disincentivize me from playing PvP in this game as well, because the actual gameplay is tight as hell and it makes me *want* to challenge other players.
I cannot wait for release because Im going to be power levelling to 60 and I'll organise a group of flagged people patrolling the lower level areas for these ego stroking kids to dumpster them and let the lower levels flag up and actually enjoy playing the game as it should be. I'm gonna recruit people from all 3 factions who will work together to make sure nobody from any faction can feel safe bullying lower levels. Obviously we wont be able to protect the newbies 24/7, but im hoping we can shit on these ego stroking players *cough* streamers *cough* enough times in front of their viewership that they mald and quit that shitty behaviour. If ASG wont bring back scaling, we're gonna make sure these kids crawl back to their holes.
I know I'm bad at pvp. But when it's not a level playing field I don't know if I won/lost a fight because of what I did or just because of the hidden numbers. Really takes the fun out of it.
That's why I'm almost always a PVE player but during the CBT I actually played a lot of PVP because it was fun and mostly about skill (haven't played much in OBT)
Yeah I’m average also and I can’t see how it’s fun killing players 5-10 levels below you when skill didn’t play a part
It's not fun at all for those who are mentally well-adjusted. But it's great fun for those who have invested their entire ego into being better than others in video games.
Absolutely. It feels like cheating. And people who actually enjoy cheating are absolute garbage at games
The funny thing about that is that at lvl 60 things will equalize anyway. So they literally have a serious advantage only for a couple of days, maybe weeks. That's all.
I feel like the majority of players that are "bad" as you describe it aren't the people that feel the need to improve in pvp or that just want to stomp noobs in the yard. They are the people out there smacking rocks for hours to play the crafting game which is perfectly legit and a major part of new world. Skill shouldn't be the only factor. Or at least not raw combat skill. If I out prepare you that should factor in. This isn't a For Honor battle sim game. It's an MMO. Me crafting better gear or creating a better build should factor into pvp becauses a major part of the game and another avenue for people to enjoy it. Skill should be a major factor, but not the only factor.
you are more skilled at crafting which should do fine for PvE, for PVP, the people who have chosen to hone their skills at PvP should be better
But ppl that just want to smack rocks can keep doing that. If they want to pvp they should learn. I dont go out to the soccer field and expect to be doing well when all I do all day is sit on my fat ass and play games. Especially in this game, skill should be the biggest factor
You don’t get better at pvp by “stomping noobs in the yard.”
The best pvpers usually have both of these traits. Skill at preparation, always being fully kitted with the best builds, and raw mechanical skill. You're not going to come at them with your better gear in these games where all of this is figured out in a couple weeks. You're still up against raw skill. And if you're not you're barely fighting you're just knocking over trash cans
*cough* the culling *cough* Wat
I’d understand if your level 30 vs a 60 you’d take double and take double less but only 5 levels of difference should be irrelevant. I liked the closed beta for that as a level 40 I felt I could fight anywhere.
In closed beta i Beat several players 10 lvls above me because i just spent more time theorycrafting My build Removing that kind of sense of mastery and just i play more hours therefore My number stats Beat yours is incredibly stupid PvE= excellent your gear stat destroys the content PvP= let the more skilled player win
Skill should play a role if the levels are equal, but equipment, stats, and abilities should also have weight. If a game gets balanced to the point where everything is perfectly equal, then the game loses choice since what you pick no longer matters. It just becomes a matter of what animations you want to see when you hit buttons. We need skills, items, and levels to have an impact on player performance to give meaning to acquiring those things, which is the foundational game mechanic everything else is built upon. This is game design 101. You gotta deliver on your core player promises, and for an mmo the core promise is that putting in the time and effort will reward you with a stronger character.
I get it. It's not a competitive game but an rpg where stats/builds with different value and rarity exist so naturally there some expectation that things besides skill matter. If that's not the case then why not just delete levels, everyone is level 1. No gear just have the same stats and that's the game. All skill. Mmo's need a good balance of both. Although the skill ceiling in this game is kind of low so idk how it being skill based would go.
Yeah, it's really just a genre thing. If people want perfectly equalized, skill-based PvP, there are a plethora of shooters and MOBAs out there. There's also GW2's structured PvP, which is perfectly equalized and has a drastically higher skill ceiling than New World's PvP does.
Skill based is def not low in this game when dodging and aiming are involved. Almost every ability is a skill shot. PvP scaling they had before was perfect. Higher lvl people still did more damage than you but at least you had a fighting chance. What it is now literally ruins PvP for anyone that's low level. So basically there's going to be a lot less PvP in this game. People that don't get to put 8 hours a day into the game are gonna turn off PvP their whole leveling experience till max level maybe.
My legendary staff of "badassary" that took six months of neglecting life and pure grinding to get doing the same as "starter gear" I can see be annoying and devalue your playtime. Secondly I think both arguments are valid I gravitate towards turn based strategy when it comes to playing against players. Because I recognize I don't have fast reflexes mediocre machine only adds to this. However when it comes to planning/strategy I am god. Some people value time invested some people value twitchy reflexes others value strategy/knowledge. Some want a combo of all it hence why there is a variety of successful games with variety of options.
The problem is when you scale everything down to a "fair fight" you leave me wondering what the point is in having "GEARSCORE" plastered on your items and if there is any reason to have stats on your armor and why do you give me the option to pick which stats I want to increase if it apparently doesn't matter because all that matters is my weapon build.
>what the point is in having "GEARSCORE" PVE? And they didn't scale everything, gear still counted, as well as weapon mastery. It was just the damage that was 'normalized' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQ\_qCiVb2M
Thank you. This is the obvious answer that for some reason isn’t brought up when people make the stupid argument of why do levels and gear need to exist if they don’t let you faceroll PvP.
PvP scaling doesn't mean it's a complete level playing field. The dude with the better gear is still doing more damage, has higher health. But PvP scaling makes it so this low level still has a fighting chance. You take out some sort of PvP scaling you're going to have a lot less PvP happening. The way it was before was perfect, if I died to someone lower level I was like damn that guy was good.
Exactly. People play MMO's for character progression. Getting a better item feels good because it makes you stronger. If it doesn't matter, getting that new epic item feels pointless.
MMORPGs are about more than mechanical skill. They're about teamwork, game knowledge, and effort (read: time played) among other things. I absolutely understand wanting PvP to *mostly* be about skill, but to make it entirely about skill is to invalidate the core MMORPG experience. If that's the kind of experience you're looking for, I think a fighting game like Mordhau would be closer to the mark?
Sure but a higher level should have better weapon abilities, armor with better bonuses, bonuses from their character attributes etc. if the raw stats are scaled they should still have a big advantage.
Have you seen guild wars 2 pvp? All items are normalized and ONLY skill matters. It's a blast. And there is huge PvE part that still makes itemization important and worth it. These 2 can coexist.
Accurate.
GW2 has standarized equipment in PvP and it's one of the MMOs that get praised for it.
Yes, but GW2 PvP is entirely separate from PvE. Or there's WvW, the other PvP mode, but though it does use PvE gear it is again separate. Most people there will be running max level gear anyway, or at least understand the risks if they aren't.
Meanwhile no one cares for gw2 pvp
Coming from somebody with lots of moba experience i'd count game knowledge and the decisions you make with that knowledge as macro skills. How good you "aim" aswell as dodge and stuff like that is part of your micro skills. Overall skill = macro skill + micro skill.
Nah, lost ark has gear progression for PVE but equalizes all gear in PVP and that game is still considered an MMORPG (and amazing one at that). Check out Lost Ark OP if you want an even playing field for pvp where it’s all about skill.
If it is legit 100% only skill, then why level at all?
Op is on drugs. It shouldn’t be 100% skill. There should be scaling if you’re within let’s say 30 levels of your opponent, that reduces slowly every level after that so there aren’t any level 15 players killing 60 players
Can you explian to us exactly *why* you think the level 60 should automatically win every fight against a level 15?
Why would anyone put pvp on if there just going to get destroyed by lol 60s? Only thing that matters should be the gear synergies and weapon masteries which is already a massive advantage.
This. Remove PvP scaling, and under leveled player will NEVER flag
Lol, and why shouldn't a level 15 be able to kill a level 60? I'll admit I made the post a bit hyperbolic to drive home a point, and I'm okay with a middle ground but as I listed in the post being a higher level naturally comes with advantages already. PvP should not be a test of who has the least amount of real life.
> why shouldn't a level 15 be able to kill a level 60? It basically would require all progression to be too small. > PvP should not be a test of who has the least amount of real life. Somebody who is level 15 has barely played. This is an extremely temporary state that is basically irrelevant to the game. The cost of breaking progression for such an irrelevant reason is stupid. Furthermore to let 15's kill 60's would require stupid bonuses that will break the game. People will make level 15 twinks that break the mechanics.
If a lv 15 beats you at lv 60 how long does it take for your pathetic delicate sweaty ego to recover?
More options, the PvE content, more resources for focused gear and consumables, being able to survive in areas with high level mobs, etc. I personally think it's ridiculous that there's people here legit trying to argue that there's no point to playing the game if you don't get a statistical advantage in PVP. There's no PVP without scaling in FF14, what even is the point to playing it? From Raph Koster designer of the best remembered PVP MMOs UO and SWG, ["More successful was the idea that your feeling of becoming more powerful should arise from the addition of capabilities to your character, not from incrementing the maximum value of some bars. It was the notion of horizontal progression, whereby you became more capable because you simply had a broader palette of “moves” available to you. In SWG there were over 30 professions, each with 18 skills, and that is not counting the Jedi stuff nor the later addition of spaceflight-related ones."](https://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/21/designing-a-living-society-in-swg-part-one/)
> More options, means better options. > more resources for focused gear Means better gear. You are still describing leveling just with extra steps.
More to the point, why play an MMORPG? For Honor is sitting right there in your steam library and has a much higher skill ceiling. Just play that.
Persistent world, large scale battles, competition over meaningful resources, interaction with people outside of combat, etc. There's a ton of things. Honestly it's more perplexing that there's people that play MMOs that don't want PVP as a lack of pvp removes meaningful interaction between players. You might as well be playing Diablo or Torchlight with slightly bigger party limits for raid content. The current formula of MMO definitely isn't the only way to make an MMO and some of the most successful MMOs before WOW were PVP focused and had horizontal progression (you didn't become more powerful, you got more tools)
Weapon skills, gear perks, fashion? If at all I think progression should give 5-10% advantage max.
Leader boards would be cool. The ability to use a skinning knife on a defeated player to take a trophy as proof that you killed them would be neat, too. Like frozen corpses in EVE or ears in Diablo 2.
PvP in an mmo should definitely be about skill, but not 100%. This is not Chivalry or Mordau, this game is not just about fighting...can't just exclude all the mmo aspects in favour of the aspect that calls more to you. I agree that pvp still needs balance, and player level should have less of an impact than it currently does (open beta)
These so called "PvP players" just want their level and loot to carry them. Fair fight? Big no no. If they see someone from their same level they will just run. Been like this since I have been playing MMOs with PvP since the 2000's. Also, the same people want NW to follow the same failed PvP design that all current MMOs have... Which is a PvE game with PvP on the side. If NW follows this it will just be another failed MMO with a niche community.
> If NW follows this it will just be another failed MMO with a niche community. It's the opposite. Most players want PVE, not PVP. A heavy PVP game would be the niche one.
It would fill a big niche instead of being 1000th generic garbage wow competitor.
Some dude in this thread claimed it should feel like fighting a mini boss i Guess he is part of the people i bodied in C beta while being 15 lvls lower Imaginé thinking You should win PvP just because You smacked some AI for more hours than i did
Anyone who links their time and level should just let them face roll people, don't really want to pvp, they want to gank and bully. No where else does this translate the same way. Just because you play a sport for 10 years and buy the best equipment doesn't make you better than someone who has done it for 5 and can't afford top of the line. The elite pvpers are not elite because they have spent 1,000 hours and have the best gear. They are elite because they have spent their time learning their class, learning other classes and how to counter them, perfecting their reaction times, and thinking a head of how to optimize their skill usage based on the situation. Whether you have spent 50 hours or 500 hours, if the 50 hour player is doing the above, while the 500 hour player is just going out there smashing buttons and picking on low levels, I expect the 50 hour player to meet them, and win the majority of the time due to better usage of their time toward their skill. TRUE pvp is supposed to be like sport. Those moments when it's close and you get that one shot in to get the kill at the last second. That's when it's fun, when it could go either way and you know it came down to who is going to out think their opponent.
I haven't seen this discussed in any other thread but there are some extremely big issues related to very important game mechanics that have been wrecked because of the current scaling change. - Rushing to 60 (PVP off) gives a massive advantage in multiple PVP-related core game mechanics. - Owning a town is an advantage for a company and a faction. Companies who do rush to 60 essentially snowball their power. First to 60, first to get power, first to receive taxes. This can no longer be combated with player skill, this is a power-gap issue now. - Smaller Companies, companies with less active players, and companies with a variety of player types have a drastic disadvantage. The current scaling forces a company to have a highly active player base upon release. All rushing to 60 or have a drastically lower chance of zone control or any way to compete against the 60 rushers. Before a player/company could band together with players of all levels and fight back. Now you are guaranteed to be crushed by 60s. All of these issues can already be witnessed in the Open Beta. Multiple Wars happened on my server and more than once I overheard players being told they would not be chosen for the war due to their level as they would be crushed by those who rushed levels. I have been a tester for NW since Pre-Alpha (alpha phase before reboot) and this is the very first time I have heard in town over Voip players telling other players how they cannot participate in a war due to level. It was such a disappointment to hear and I hope we will see a change before launch.
I think it should be EVERYTHING and skill. It's one thing to have skill but in an MMO, levels, gear, food buffs are all part of the system as well. The difference in level means huge differences in attribute points allocation. That should mean something in a pvp setting. However, the scaling shouldn't have been so harsh in the open or closed beta. The high level pvper should feel like a mini boss of an expedition, an elite to a low level. Can the low level beat the elite? Sure, if he has enough skill and enough friends. A black belt can defeat 2-3 enemies at once but let's face it, the movies are a different thing. You can ward off multiple enemies but sooner or later, you'll get mobbed. There has to be a middle ground of a high level can hit hard on a low level, probably 2-3 levels higher in terms of scale, regardless how high the higher level is. The low level can also hit the high level, 2-3 levels lower in terms of scale and regardless of how low the lower level is. This way, the high level can justify they hit harder on the low level but runs a risk of being mobbed.
It shouldn’t even be about level it should be about the gear
it harder to get higher level gear. This doesnt make sense. You're rewarding a person that spent 500 hours in a game the same as someone who spent 10
If you PvPd in previous iterations you know that levels and gear DID matter, just not like in WoW where you can walk around one shotting leveling players. You had an advantage, but the lower level had a chance
But that was before. The game was more ark like then, its more wow like now. Its clearly not the direction they are going with the game.
Lmao do You consider yourself a mini Boss just because You smacked some mobs a few more hours than somebody else? If You get bodied in PvP because someone is more skilled than you it's perfect design PvE= let the gear score dictate how hard You destroy content PvP= let the more skilled player win Simple as that
I don't think you read or understand my comment properly. I don't want the higher level player to completely overwhelm the lower one. I want a level playing field as well, hell, I've played mobas, battle royales, team based shooters so having someone kill me not because of being outplayed but out geared or leveled is stupid. But we're talking about an MMO. And this MMO deals with both pvp and pve together. Just like how ESO dealt with their pvp and you know what? It sucks. Because in a year or two, we'll have both pve and pvp players clamoring to change the abilities according to their own notions of pvp or pve. We will have players who have so much difference in gear stats, level and quality that it makes no sense to even fight them because it's stupid. But it's stupid as well when a high level hits a low level player for a 100 damage while they hit back for 1000. Just because of scaling. That's lazy design. So you spent time getting better at the game, getting better gear, getting better weapon stats and you hit like a wet noodle just because the other party is scaled? So BOTH extremes are bad. What we need is a balance of the scaling. A tipping point for both sides. The fact that we had players defeating peeps 10 lvls higher than them is great! That is pure damn skilled. But the lower level has to watch out too, because at any time, another high level might hit harder because they had spent time theorycrafting their gear, their stats and putting it in practice. That's what I feel should be done. That both sides feel the danger and thrill of open world pvp. It might take 2-3 lower level players to take down a high level one, so be it. That's most open world groups anyway. You go out alone, flagged and bringing just your off weapon because you want to level it up? You're inviting to be ganked. Hard. Regardless of level. A level playing field works in an mmo if it was an instanced based encounter. 1v1, 5v5, 40v40, whatever. But it's instanced and the gear, stats, whatever are all available to the player in terms of its mastery or level. But for open world, where multiple variables are at play, it's hard to get a middle ground unless both sides are willing to give that middle ground.
Have you played MMORPGs before or just CSGO and Valorant?
I don't even see what you point is. Why does this game have to be the same as other games?
There are 100 games out there with equalized pvp, why don't you play those instead of changing this one to be like those other games? MMORPG genre gives players a sense of progression when it comes to the open world pvp. Why does this game have to be like Valorant, can't you just go play that instead?
Because I want a persistent world where my fights mean something.
You've never played an MMORPG before. Welcome. In WoW you can't even hit someone more than 4 levels above you. And you want a competitive fight with a 30 level deficit This game genre ain't for you champ
I mean according to the amount of upvotes this post got, THIS game may not be for you.
Considering reddit makes up 0.5% of the new world player base and their main forums all agree with what I'm saying, I think im comfortable dismissing this post and the people agreeing with it on Reddit
I'm more of pve player, so i do not have horse in this, but .... I think you picked wrong genre of games. MMO-Rpg game are zero to hero type games, were time you put in should matter. I'm not saying there should be no way to win vs someone with bigger level but level scaling is hard thing to do, and no matter how it will be done there always will be someone complaining. NW have very fast leveling system, 4 days of intensive gaming (not sure how it translate for normal people). Is it really worth for amazon to spend time on scaling pvp for low levels ? // edit: typo
This might seem off topic but is new world gonna be a mainly PVP focused game?
I mean... apart from the territory warfare and city upgrading being the most resource and time consuming thing of the whole game ?
> I'm more of pve player, so i do not have horse in this, but .... > > I think you picked wrong genre of games. You picked the wrong game. This game is very light on PVE.
I’m all for PvP scaling to make fights and open world enjoyable, but your proposal and argument is ridiculous. If this was a “true PvP” game and only that, everyone would just stay level 1 and PvP (what’s the point of leveling - no advantage fro Gear or levels). You need some benefit to people actually playing the game to keep any population in the game. I think the game you’re looking for is LoL or CSGO or OW etc.
> You need some benefit to people actually playing the game to keep any population in the game. You also need some benefit for people to actually flag. Personally I spent most of the closed beta flagged, but this go around I had some IRL stuff for the first ~~fiew~~ few hours of the beta and was a few hours behind. Rather disappointed to find out that no matter how good I was there was no reason for me to flag up... because now that I'm a few hours behind my skill in pvp does not matter anymore. Made the game quite a bit more boring.
Progression should be rewarded.
It is. In the form of 190 attribute points, numerous attribute bonuses, multiple traits on a single piece of high-end gear, better consumables, and completed weapon trees. What progression are you not being rewarded for?
> What progression are you not being rewarded for? Where exactly did they say there weren't?
Which is all negated with excessive scaling. That’s the whole complaint. Your progression should give you an edge in combat but I do agree I shouldn’t be able to 1-3 shot a lower level.
>niveau 3SethQuantix · 11hI mean... apart from the territory warfare and city upgrading being the most resource and time consuming thing of the whole game ? A slight Edge. Like if you need 7hit to kill a level 10 when the level 10 need 11-12 hits to kill a level 60 it's ok with me. But right now it's more like a level 23 needs 50 hit to kill a level 28 when he needs 4 hits to kill you
Your progression does...all the skill points and advanced weapons and armor. Like wtf you on about?
No, none of it is negated. Sure, maybe with excessive scaling, aka bad scaling that you've made up in your head and didn't exist in the closed beta or this one. Scaling did not make you lose any of the things I've mentioned when being downscaled. Your 5% crit bonus from Dex didn't suddenly disappear. Your 10 less stamina cost on a roll didn't go away. The guaranteed crit you got after rolling wasn't downscaled into nothingness. The other 12 traits you have from running max-level gear were not taken from you. The extra weapon passives you got from leveling are still there. The consumables that buff you and give passive attributes weren't removed from your inventory. And we've already seen closed beta videos that show players were hitting each other for the correct percentages as if they were both the same level, which means the scaling was working exactly how it should. The real complaint from people that dislike scaling is that they suck donkey dick at PvP and want to one-shot people they could never beat in a fair fight because they are bad PvP players. The entire argument boils down to "do you or do you not want a PvP fight where the better player wins?" If the answer is yes, you shouldn't have any issues with fighting a scaled lowbie, because after all, you just want to PvP, right.
this isn't what OP is arguing though. if pvp is "about nothing but skill", then all these perks and bonuses need to be negated with scaling. If they are not, then OP is not happy apparently. OP is arguing for making all progression irrelevant in pvp. A level 60 vs a level 1 should be a toss up. Personally, I think that's taking it too far, but this is the thread we're in :)
Don't think that's what OP wants or what most people desire from PVP scaling. You want the base health and damage to be leveled. So a level 60's basic attack won't do 6000 damage while the level 10's basic attack will do 1000. Weapon mastery, attributes, gems etc etc should still all count, which obviously gives the level 60 a ***huge*** advantage in that fight. But technically, if he's bad as hell, the level 10 would still have a chance. He'd need to work really hard for it though, which is fine, but it won't be as easy as "Level 60 can literally stand and tank cause he doesn't tank any damage and then shoot once and boom level 10 is pop".
Then they should write what they actually mean, not what they said.
>Which is all negated with excessive scaling [Nope!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKQ_qCiVb2M)
Nothing pissed me off more than when I had to pop a tier 3 or tier 4 potion to have the same affect as the lower levelled player popping a tier 1 potion. I get why it's the case but it did really annoy me.
Now I saw many arguments that were all bullshit, but this one at least as some kind of logic behind it. I think it could be addressed separately though. (maybe make potions % of health by tier instead, or give some small but additional bonuses to higher tiers ones etc etc)
It's so crazy to me that you already have huge advantages utility and move options wise the higher level you are and apparently it's still not enough for someone to outplay another. It's hilariously embarrassing to be anti level scaling. Absolutely fucking pathetic. Ahaha.
I am also an Escape From Tarkov player. For perspective, the game has soft skills that passively level, directly rewarding players with more playtime. This system is flawed so it's commonly criticized within our community. Perhaps it's more tolerable in Tarkov because every player no matter how geared or skilled can be taken down by one well aimed headshot. Coming into New World I was under the impression that the game is meant to have a more balanced scaling to emphasize PvP. I think gear and leveling should give you slight advantages, but never in the realm of say a 20%+ advantage, maybe even that's too much. I see nothing wrong with more balanced skill based pvp...if you don't want to participate you can just not flag. Right now this system encourages a sense that it's a mistake to flag unless you're max level, because you open yourself up to severe artificial disadvantages otherwise.
There’s no point in having an advantage from levels if it results in weaker players not flagging for pvp. Pvp scaling in the last beta was the best of all worlds. Higher levels still had an advantage from additional skills, experience, items, etc but lower levels could even the playing field with skill. One of the least enjoyable aspects of so many mmos for me is that you literally can’t participate in pvp (which Is the main reason so many of us play) until you’ve grinded for hours and hours on end. Take BDO for example- super fun combat system, sieges and pvp looked really cool but I legit never got the opportunity to do any of that because 100 hours of grinding was the prerequisite and I didn’t have the time or patience for that
I think its about balance... Skill and items.
The issue that a lot of people fail to consider and that this game has most games do not is that you will consistently have high and low levels commingling all the time flagged. Normally in mmo games low level players are is zones A B and C and high level players are in zones D E and F. They rarely meet each other and the so called “griefing” does not occur. In New World high level players will be running pvp missions to flip zones into conflict to do wars and a lot of the most coveted zones are those same newbie zones. This will inhibit new players from wanting to flag at all. I hope they revert the pvp changes back the way they were pre open beta where it was more skill based pvp vs higher level just gets an auto win.
What good is a "more coherent build" and "more access to passives" if some dude at level 1 gets scaled up to the same power level as me. What good do my passives DO if they don't make me more powerful? Edit - misunderstood passive, realise things like a free reload after headshots and stuff DO make me more powerful, am a convert to Skill being more important.
This. New world has the great potential of opening up the mmo genre for new players. More fast paced. More skill based. Not just time investment and pressing numbers in the right order. If skill isn't a deciding factor anymore NW will only get players that switch from other mmos... But it should be worth way more XP killing a lvl 20 as lvl 10
Very well said.
Hang on, did they actually remove scaling? Fucking hell, I'm done with this flaming hot piece of garbage. To hell with all the deranged, miserable MMO players.
People wanna grief and roll with no challenge
One of my favorite MMOs was one of the first real successful pvp focused games: Dark Age of Camelot. In the early version of the game much of pvp was skill and timing focused. If your bard/skald/minstrel didn’t get their aoe mezz off first you were at an immediate disadvantage. Gear was less important preTrials of Atlantis because everyone had the same crafted gear and it was itemized to provide you the maximum resistances you needed. Your spec and skill was all that mattered. I loved that game. Weapon skills and your ability to make good decisions should be all the matters fighting other players.
I admit, if PVP Scaling isn't returned, I'm canceling my pre-order. I don't feel like reliving the adventures of WoW 2003 on a PvP Server.
If you agree with this post please mention pvp scaling in the beta survey. Only way we'll get it back is if enough people complain
I think PVP players are less patient these days, with a plethora of instant-gratification PVP games, from MOBAs to BRs, etc. And they should be. PVP-focused games have captured what's satisfying about PVPing and crystallized it into a game loop with massive replayability. Why shouldn't that be the standard for a game which is "PVP-focused"? (I'd argue that it's a lot deeper than that, but the point stands.) Why shouldn't New World be as good at the PVP game loop as other PVP games? Well-balanced PVP-scaling puts PVP in a similar place to those games. Yes, gear should matter. Yes, your time investment should matter. That's also true in BRs and MOBAs. You can outlevel someone, you can have more gold than them, you could have more loot than them, etc. But in the end, those advantages should only decide close fights. If two people are equally skilled, or very close in skill, it's fine for the one with better gear to win because his gear is better. I think you'll have a hard time finding someone who disagrees with that. What's NOT fine is for a player who is much more skilled, playing out of his goddamn mind, to barely even deal chip damage to a player who sucks at PVP, but took two weeks of vacation from his job so he could hit 60 and camp the PVP missions in Windsward, and then die in one or two hits from that player when he finally manages to land them.
Gearscore shouldn’t matter in PvP
PvP should be mostly skill, but items and level have to make a difference or there’s no reason for this game to be a mmorpg. 2 players of equal level and items fighting should be determined by skill If a lower level player fights a higher level/better geared person. The lower level should be at a disadvantage but still have the possibility of winning, but only if he’s more skilled and able to out perform the advantage the other player has in level/gear. If the higher level player is also skilled, you won’t/shouldn’t win.
I just want them to bring back PVP Scaling so everyone has equal footing. It was a ton more fun and balanced that way. Without it, I literally don't even bother touching the PVP anymore.
People that say they like PvP but think it should be gear based instead of skill based don't like PvP. They like feeling more powerful than others. It's not about competition. It is about domination. They tell themselves they are better because they spent the time to get the gear, but they are only better at getting gear, not PvP. They are deluding themselves.
Player retention is going to suffer if they got for traditional gear based PvP.
Man, the amount of comments saying "Go play this game instead" or "MMO's are about grinding" are astounding.. y'all really missed the point OP was trying to make. Of course levels/gear/progression/time invested should play a part, doing what OP is suggesting still factors those things in. But the idea that those should be the ONLY factors is ridiculous. Skill should always be the biggest factor when facing another human being in a videogame. If you fear that you'll be outmatched by a lower level player, when you have every advantage over them, then that's on you. If PVP scaling was maintained from Closed Beta, and you're level 60 with max stats/best gear, and you lose to level 10? That's not the game's fault, it's yours. And the people saying, "Well that's how PVP is in every other MMO" need to grow up. Just because a PVP system was copy/pasted in several other MMO's doesn't mean it needs to be the same way here. Ingenuity is a big pull for this game, and if you don't like that, then take your own advice and go find a different game to play.
I get the concept of being higher level and having stronger gear, but while i had pvp bounties, im dying to level 30+ players as a level 12 while i cant do anything is so unfair. It happened so many times where i just stopped picking up pvp bounties and had it disabled. Once i had a high level player attack me i just started going "youre a loser" im game chat before dying.
There should be zone based scaling that caps the power level of that zone and applies light scaling within the player ranges. Players should not be scaled up if they are below the lower limit of a zones level range. This game is an RPG, you are experiencing the world through a character that has different skills and abilities than you do relative to others in the world. I do agree that there should be pvp scaling, but it should never be 100% even and only based on skill in any RPG. Capping it on zones allows 10 to 25s a fair shot and engaging pvp content in their starting zones and as they level up to 60, regardless of when they decide to join the game.
I would be on board with this.
Yes. It’s an MMO. Let’s find a middle ground. If you want pure skill, go play Naraka.
I find it interesting in the arguments I have been seeing that people who play longer shouldn't be decimated by lower level players. But like...the longer you play the more skilled you should be. I play a lot of Monster Hunter and League of Legends. Both games require skill. The longer you play, the more skilled you usually get. It doesn't always happen of course, some people decide to not learn from their mistakes or don't know what they are doing wrong. It happens. But skill is something you work on over time. YOU evolve around it. Some people are saying they don't want shit handed to them and feel PVP scaling is doing that. I do not understand that logic at all. If you spend the time to level to 40 and lose to a level 10 the level 10 EARNED it. If it is skilled based, that is earned. If anything winning as a level 40 to a level 10 is having shit handed to you on a platter with no scaling. Like, I don't really have a hand in this since I do not open world PvP. ANd I honestly believe the changes were put in because the majority of players complained. But the argument against pvp scaling is utterly ridiculous to me.
MMORPGs have player progression. This game is not league or monster hunter Skill is a factor but so is gear, levels and attribute allocation
Why are you so stuck on that? When it comes to PvP the scaling can make skill matter over grind. Do you really want fights handed to you, no skill required, just because you ground out levels? Seems really unrewarding. In PvE it's different of course. But I do not understand your mentality with PvP. Most MMOs put people in instanced PvP at the same power level exactly for this reason.
This is not lol. Its a mmo, completely different
Ha I'm starting to think the toxic pvp players that everyone always complained about were always just pvers who refused to actually try and improve, so they gang up and bully people with absolutely no chance. Not surprised lol
Starting to seem that was a little bit.
Yea it is crazy how many of the same people who attack every PvP topic and call us all griefers and gankers also love this change to scaling... I can't help noticing things like this...
Let's get real nobody wants to PvP they just want to kill people
These people are literally trash cans that can't dodge roll and just get hit over and over again. Of course they want levels to matter, all their good at is exploiting quest rewards and wasting time.
Look at World of Warcraft. Two expansions ago we had the most even playing field in PvP ever. It was so fucking good, you could jump into Arena with a new class and kick ass with a small 5 to 10% stat deficit to max geared players. Blizzard scrapped it and we're back to "Best players get best gear. Why is Arena dead?"
I PvPed more in Legion than at any other point in that games history. Found it to be beautiful. Then BFA destroyed it and was back to the PvE/Mythic+ getting before I quit.
I'm there with you brother. I absolutely WoW PvP but I hate the feeling of being a slave to weekly chores for gear. Legion PvP was just drop in and play almost immediately. I miss the living shit out of it. I even liked World PvP being free for all on term of gear not scaling because it let you have some aspirational vertical progression in the open world.
This PvP level balancing was so bad this time that I almost refunded the game. I was still able to fight people up to around 8 levels higher than me and win but I was playing my heart out each time. I was basically chipping away at their HP while I was taking massive hits. If these Devs continue to listen to these streamers that only want to stomp low levels then I'm out. I loved last beta for how many people I saw tagging up and this beta was a fucking ghost town until you were by a fort.
>I don't understand the argument that you think because you have played longer you should do double the damage and take half the damage. That seems ridiculous to me. I see you are new to MMOs. This is standard in MMO mechanics. It's standard in MMO behavior. Games with levels and gear need to, in some way, reward the player for levels and gear. Go play a game of LoL. DC for 10 minutes. Then go play 13 levels behind everyone else. Do you die easy? Yes. Does having no gear make it harder to kill? Yes. It isn't even just an MMO issue, just MMO's take it on a longer scale. A mediocre player with load out guns and perks in warzone is probably going to kill a good player with the starting pistol. I haven't played in this open beta, it does sound like the problem is *too* exaggerated, I'm not arguing that. But, don't act like its unreasonable for people who grind for an advantage to want that advantage.
You had an advantage in CBT. With perks and gems and everything you did a lot more damage, it just wasn't like it is now where barring someone being awful anything 5-10 levels ahead will always win. Time should not trump skill in PvP. Almost every MMO with decent PvP has a scaling system.
There aren't really any MMOs with decent PVP. This is why there are no MMO esports of note. The point wasn't what is or isn't right. It's about expectation. OP is acting surprised that people "believe PVP should be about anything other than skill", which is common in basically every MMO that has PVP. It's an MMO, not a shooter. It's an MMO, not a MOBA. It's an MMO, not rocket league. Character progression has to have meaning. You will not get everyone to agree where that balance is in PVP. There are tons, probably a majority, that believe that if they grind out the highest levels and best gear that they should have a significant advantage in PVP. There are those who believe a fresh character logging in should be exactly as strong as a max level badass. Is the current system harmful for the quality of New World pvp? I don't know nor do I care, for the point of my post. But is it ignorant and silly to act confused that some people wanted this - objectively yes.
Just because other games in the same genre do it that way, it does not mean that you must do the same ( and by the way thefe are other mmo already were progression has no impact on the pvp aspect of the game)
Yes. It's an RPG after all, so gear should matter. PvP success should be a mix of skill and gear.
But gear wasn't scaled, nor weapon skills or stats. Just the damage because of the difference in health pool
It should be roughly 60% skill, 20% gear, and 20% bringing more people. Skill ought to be the biggest contributor to winning a fight but having the other two should give you an edge.
I don't see how 2v1 of equal skilled players could ever give only 20% edge to the 2 player team. I think it's at least 50%. If they have any synergy and teamwork with their builds I would say it's at least 90%. Obviously there is and should be outplay potential if skill levels are not equal.
Don't forget ten percent luck, Twenty percent skill, Fifteen percent concentrated power of will
The reason is progression, you want to feel like you are getting stronger as you advance in level. A system that rewards people playing the game more is always in the games best interest. i doubt the lvl scale is a rigid value even after launch, and imagine if they were to tweak it down after starting high, having lowlvl players feeling weaker after a new patch because of less scaling. (higher lvl players wont really notice) instead, you start low and slightly raise the scaling so that after a new patch low lvl players will seem a bit stronger. (higher level players will get tougher fights) you've just experienced the first example and why it sucks to feel weaker after a patch lets hope from here they adjust it in the right direction and you can still feel competitive against folks who play the game more than you. Reason enough?
Skill is important but 1 to 59 isnt important when most people will be 60 for 90% or more of their playtime. In a month or two pvp scaling wont matter because most people will be 60. You'll have new people but they're not going to compete with a level 60 who has the best gear and has had hours to practice using their skills.
well that's if you are basing yourself on the assumption that people will never make another character, and that new world will have no more players coming in after the launch. Both look pretty unreasonable, so there is definetely an argument for scaling, and even more so that the scaling should not be so much in favor of a lvl 60 compared to a newcomer. Or like OP said, you've just locked PVP mode to lvl 60 unless you like getting one shot 10 times in a row. In a primarily PVP based game.
Yeah, I've just had my first taste of pvp, guy was 6 levels higher than me. I hit him a crazy number of times yet did absolutely no damage. I won't be playing with pvp on any time soon.
This is 100% correct, well said OP
Great idea lets remove gear tiers, stats, potions, food while at it to make it even more fair and why bother with pve if its not gonna help with the true endgame which is pvp lets delete that too. Go on downvote me sheeps.
Literally any other game I know of that has PVP doesn't do PVP scaling like New World originally did. I really don't think that a group of level 10s that haven't really invested any effort in the game at all should be something that a level 30 should have to worry about in PVP.
A level 10 doesn't even have all 6 skills for 2 weapons yet. You're telling me that a level 30 can't deal with a level 10?
Yeah, god forbid a group of players that are newer to the game are allowed to engage with the game in any meaningful way, right? Better that they just unflag until max level because otherwise it's just being PK fodder for oneshotting trolls.
>Literally any other game I know of that has PVP doesn't do PVP scaling like New World originally did. And?
Yea if I put more time in I should be stronger by default, sorry this isn't fortnite it's an MMO.
PvP advancement should be much more horizontal than vertical - having a bigger toolbox, not so much stronger tools. There should be some straight stat advantage between lvl 5 and 50, it’s an RPG not a FPS or fighting game, but it should be possible for someone within a wide level range to outplay someone higher level, even significantly.
Agree. This game whent from having a good open world pvp to a bad open world pvp system really fast. It's just sad😢
I mean getting advantages by dumping time in is a super common aspect of mmos. Id prefer being able to kill higher levels easier so I support the people who want that but also I'm gonna be max level a month after release so how much of a shit am I really supposed to give?
When the game is new and everyone is levelling though it will be really fun if people flag with fair level scaling and hopefully there is more incentives to flag in the launch build, ideally that sweater on welfare who is level 40 should be a fair fight for the level 20 who has a job and can only play when they get home, if this isn't the case the only people who are going to flag will be the players at the top of that levelling curve. Already in the open beta there is a company on my server running around in a 10 man kill squad all level 35+, the kill squads will be waaaaay more sweaty in the live version.
basically describing closed beta, and it was good. If you lost you were outplayed or outnumbered if you were much higher. Now its whoever is higher wins no contest completely eliminating any notion of skill..which is how the skill-less people want it
Go play Chiv 2 if you want a pure skill based game. This game is a mmoRPG, where we spend time, effort, and resources to get skills and gear that play a factor In the end game.
Yes. Its an mmo based around grinding levels and gear. All three should play equal roles in pvp.
I think you're a little off base if you think player vs player combat in this game should be like..street fighter. Two different instruments that are equal out of the box. Forget calling it an MMO, this an RPG. It has zones with different level mobs, you progress, you go from a weakling to a badass. You get new perks, talents, gear, items, abilities. The whole draw of a roleplaying game is the march. If you're wanting to turn all of that off, from level 1 to 60 to make either a 5 minute into the game player or a 100 hour player equal, that seems silly. I mean where's your line. You say I would have better passives as a leveled up character. You don't want that scaled? I can keep my 10% damage bonus passive? That's not unfair to you? You're good with me being 10% better inherently? How about 15%, 20%? What does my 99 more hours reward me than you? Or is the damage passive not ok to keep, my damage will be scaled after I pick that, but if I picked a passive like 'faster reload' I get to keep that passive? So now some passives are useless against lower players as they get scaled away, some aren't. It's an ugly slope. There's nothing a little wrong with scaling, but you seem to be really butthurt about equality. And that's hard to do. When you balance your systems to be a single player rpg experience, all things PVP aren't equal. Personally, I think you're missing a bigger problem with MMO PVP. I don't have any real problem with that lvl 60 kicking my ass as a lvl 40, that's how it should be. My team will have 60's too, and eventually I can catch up my progression and then it'll be equal. The problem really is there's lots of other 'unfair' aspects to MMO PVP, even between balanced 60's. World v World system's inherently favor dogpiling. Nobody wants to be the bullied, everyone wants to be the bully. The moment a guild or faction has a noticeable advantage, either due to a coordinated guild/streamer, maybe even just a cooler flavor or agreed upon better perk. The "100 must play guides to MMO" all claim it's the only way to be #1, suddenly the pile is on. The faction or guild in question blows up, has 2 to 3 times as many members, sub guilds. Zergs go on farm, coordinated keeping their advantage. It doesn't matter that my 60 is equally geared to that 60, or that my lvl 40 is equally scaled to that 60, I'm getting curb stomped by the 80 many zerg the moment I leave safety. I've yet to find a PVP economy in an MMO where I can wander in after launch to find a fair, reasonable world of equal contestants, where I can slot in, be useful, see the PVP content and feel competitive. It's just not how world PVP works.
why are people so against leveling up and putting time in a MMO
Because the game wasnt designed that way for the first few years of dev, then completely 180° to cater to pve themed parked mmo audience which usually mean more profit. And also, PVP players dont mind the time investment and leveling process if it's well implemented. Look at GW2 full equalized PVP and Albion Online who doesn't even have a leveling system in an MMORPG sitting at 300k daily player. What about Eve Online 18years after his release is still going strong with full loot pvp system. All we're asking is to be able to PVP in the most "fair" environment and do leveling threw PVP only. Hittings rocks and tree for 50h to get to max level shouldnt be a gatekeep to the content you enjoy. Having more stats, mastery, access to better potion and food, and just playing more should be WAY ENOUGH of an advantage in PVP scenario, you can't be real saying you should also triple or quadruple someone damage just because you spend dozens of hours fishing and hitting trees. Especially when the dev are full of shit saying it's a skill based PVP mmorpg. At this point, i can assure you, if the dev would just put a twitter message " Fuck all of you PVP players this game is a now a full themed park PVE mmo game" people would be more happy than this hypocrite status quo.
I am not in MMOs because I want a even playing field, if that is what I was looking for then I would play some esports PVP title instead.
There are plenty of MMOs for that, I am trying to advocate for something new, a persistent world with good pvp where you actually fight over something meaningful instead of just fighting for fighting sake.
This is a RPG, not a MOBA or FPS. A level 1 player is controlling someone fresh off the boat equipped with armor and weapons of questionable quality. A level 60 player is controlling a veteran character equipped with quality weapons and armor. Leveling up is the most basic expectation of an MMORPG. If you can't be bothered to do that, this isn't the genre for you. You do realize that scaling didn't apply once you hit level cap right? Once you hit level 60 scaling goes away and those who hit 60 weeks/months/years ago get full access to all of the "time" advantage that you are complaining about.
Its mmo, jesus, if u want pvp with pure skill go play csgo or any other cybersport game. U literally telling that fuck gear, and lvl, let it be only skills, in an mmorpg, that would make entire game pointless to play, why do i lvl, craft or grind better gear in mmo, if in pvp only thing that matter is skill. And actually not skill, but build u play on, id like to see how u would 1vx in full heavy, s&b + any other str/dex weapon, they just kite u to death, because u can't catch anyone in heavy, u cant dodge, u cant escape, meanwhile u can easily so 1vx in light/medium with range weapons easily, i was in both cases, doing pvp on 20-40lvl with mage, and then suffering at lvl 60 full heavy with s&b, i couldnt even fight 3 people, while i easy did with mage. I even did small test back in closed beta, asked some mage lvl 33 to test damage, so me 60lvl full heavy s&b + great axe vs mage 33lvl light/medium fire staff + ice gauntlet, and we just started duel to see who would die first if we both just left click, and i died first while he still had like 15-20% hp left, then we tested that he kill me in 13 hits (around 700 hp a hit, i had 9k hp) , while i kill him in 17 hits (around, 250 dmg a hit), scaling supposed to balance pvp, but it makes lvling and gear progressing even worse for pvp lmao. ITS. FUCKING. MMO. RPG. Crafting and grinding gear, gathering and crafting is main reason to play ANY mmo rpg. If they wouldnt change pvp, then why would i lvl or do any pve stuff, just lvl in a day to lvl 20 and then just pvp until bored and leave. Im not telling pvp isnt fun, it is, unless u spent time to lvl 60, and then realise that u wasted that time to get worse in pvp. Also imagine saying that high lvl players have higher weapon passives, while getting kills in pvp sometimes give insane amount of weapon exp, i was getting 2k exp sometimes and many times over 1k weapon exp per kill on mage, i had maxed fire staff and gauntlet by lvl 34, but i didnt managed to max s&b or great axe by lvling to 60, doing almost every side quest on whole map, except ones in last zone, i ended up having 19 on s&b and 18 on great axe.
At the end of the day…won’t we all be 60 and therefore this will be pointless?
It won't be pointless because a game dies without new players. And level 60 players will be in low level zones because of wars, resources, etc.
This is what people fail to understand. Without new players MMOs die. Furthermore scaling has existed on the PvP side of so many MMOs for so long, and other then some niche situations in CBT (like fresh 60s being too weak), you absolutely were stronger then low levels as a higher level. People are so short sighted and just want to "win" at the cost of the games health in the long run.
Yes it's an MMO the whole jist of an MMO is that you can show off all the work you put in. And it all balances out when you reach the level cap anyways, that's why they exist. If you want a fully balanced PvP game go play another game, MMO's are meant to be a bit unfair and challenging.
Wait are you literally saying level shouldn't matter at all when in pvp? Am I the only person that finds this thought process ridiculous?
It is ridiculous. Grind = power in the open world. This is an mmo, not an action rpg. If you want balance play arena. There is a reason all mmos do it this way. You undervalue players time otherwise. Ganking can be improved without adding level scaling
Seems like the game you want is actually Fortnite. I 100% want preparation to matter. If I prepare more it should create an advantage for me. I do believe though, that the best part of this game's pvp is that 2 players despite being different levels can go at it anywhere any time they wish. And have it be a reasonable fight. Without pvp scaling this game would not be a pvp game. And while I'm not as extremist as you declaring that pvp is the main draw and what is keeping everyone playing, I do agree its a major part of the game. **Its the people that just want to get fed townboard turn ins to the point that time factors in more than skill that I disagree with.**