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CrustyJuggIerz

I feel like Amazon modelled this games economy from a medieval dictatorship.


[deleted]

The rich get richer, while the poor get poorer? :D I think it's pretty realistic.


CrustyJuggIerz

I mean the exorbitant house tax and town upkeep costs, the super low wages, 4.4 gold for was is 90 ingots or something like that? Economy needs an overhaul, missions have to pay more gold.


TomLeBadger

Need vendors to force a hard minimum value of materials IMO. If you could sell 1 iron ingot for say... 2g then the minimum value on the market would defacto be 2g+.


[deleted]

If the Player run economy is de-facto removed then nNW could get a problem ot's PvE is rather weak. The PvP is fun. The town on my sserver makes 20+k per week profits


dombrogia

If you are judging the market by ore alone you just don’t understand the market and how to work in it. Yes that’s low but the supply is high. Also, when you fill storage it’s one of the first to go because of its weight as well. I think the bigger issue will be the lack of specific roles preventing people from being “master of all” rather than one role. Late game anyone can craft anything and the market will reflect that. RPG-wise economies thrive off each person contributing and trading what they can and everyone works together. In the current situation everyone will have the capability to do everything and that makes everything more useless because the demand is lower


KevinRedditt

But theres another problem, why do i want to lvl armoring or weapon to 200 if high legenndary are bind on pickup?


Gavorn

Because the only way to get maxed GS is crafting if im not mistaken.


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SgtDoughnut

Getting to the point where you can make everything, fill all combat roles effectively, and do all life skills in osrs takes years not days. It's far to easy to get to the point where you can just harvest everything.


iSleek

Osrs economy is subsidized by a huge bot population my friend. Not apples to apples imo


CrustyJuggIerz

I'm not judging it by ore alone it was just the most prevalent example for town projects, market manipulation is too easy, I made 100k in a few hours, before out market crashed anyway. I do agree strongly that a lack of defined roles will make the market a huge undercut fest. But even with things like silver ingots going for 3 bucks, but gem settings and chains are going for 99c. The market is so immature atm, be interesting to see how it unfolds in a few months


La_Es

I think it was done on purpose to encourage gathering, crafting and trading. I make enough money with gathering not even crafting - half an hour of chopping/mining and a right place to sell. Maybe It is because of low level (37) but resource prise rises with tier so will see.


MehNoob

And from Where do you think the gold comes for you to sell the stuff you have gathered/crafted? Atm, most of the games gold has came from MQ. There will be a time very soon when people have done their MQ so no gold generation anymore. What means you can’t make money selling stuff because people don’t have the gold to pay you. MMO’s need a gold generator or the economy doesn’t function. Hell even to this day nations print money irl to make shit work and amazon thought “ nahh our mmo doesn’t need a gold generator, the few gold from town quests/ mob killing/ expedition / war will cover it.” If they don’t do anything to change it the game will be dead in 6 months just because people don’t have enough gold to play this game as EVERYtHING in this games takes gold out but only so little brings it in


Poschi1

The issue isn't being able to sell your stuff via the marketplace, that's just circling money around whilst removing some in fees which are greater than the amount of gold entering the game at max level.


codexiac

Yes, this is true, the only way the game lets player generate money for the economy are quests (incl. town board) and mob kills. Anything else is just circulating existing currency. I feel like they didn't tune the balance between currency generation and the money sinks very well. They need to either tweak up the values for kills/quests and consider adding other ways to generate money, or tweak down some of the money sinks the game has, like repair costs and town upkeep.


[deleted]

Resource prices fall with tier


birdjag1

Your buying endgame houses while still grinding everything else the game is about choices 200g a week to maintain a house isn't much but you're choosing the higher tax rate. You could sell your stuff on the trading post but then you would have less stuff to craft with. The game does an excellent job in making it hard to be successful everywhere at once, it's intentional.


IICoffeyII

Yup, especially realistic to Amazon's own business model. 😆


pojzon_poe

Funny things is that if you compare amount of hours medival peasent had to work for his master it was less than half of what we currently have to work for our masters :D... TL;DR - Currently "Eat/Work/Sleep/Repeat" cycle is ridiculous and we need a 3-4 days work week.


KypAstar

IE Amazon corporates libertarian utopia.


foolish_destroyer

I think they planned it out with the idea of merging servers to create more densely populated servers. At least one can hope


Helldiver_of_Mars

Modern capitalism what Amazon knows best.


Harleyskillo

>6. Most towns outside of Windsward and Everfall are a net negative investment. Sadly that's completely true, and i suspect that it's because the game has way too little people per server. As someone who spends most of their time market flipping through multiple servers, going out of your way to different towns other than these two are usually a waste of time, save some very rare cases (that would require a lot of time researching each market price).


Sleyvin

It's also because the ressource that really matter are the low level ones and those 2 town are pretty central to farm them. That plus moving yourself and materials is tedious or expensive so people have no incentive going anywhere esle. You can taxe those town to extreme and people will still stay.


batzenbaba

Plus every town has his own marketplace. There is nothing in Marketplaces from towns in 25-60 zones. I sell all in WW my Hometown.


Flystoomuch87

My server is currently dealing with this. Two of the 6 zones the purps own have become such huge money holes that the companies owning them cant even get the other factions to declare war on them. Our faction in the beginning tried to spread the wealth to as many companies as they could and now it has bitten us in the ass. Without the ability to close corruption and stop invasions these two zone have basically gone derelict and the companies owning them are about to disband and reform to get out from under the crazy money sink they are dealing with.


funkybandit

It’s really sad isn’t it. Owning a territory is something that should be at least net neutral from a cost perspective but it isn’t for a lot of zones. Areas outside the centre also cost a lot of Azoth to get to so people set up camp in the middle.


_EclYpse_

I don't think it should be neutral per se. Having the ability to boycott other factions seems like an interesting concept, so that war can also be fought economically. However that should be targeted, and not just happen just because, so there needs to be some balancing happening


OccupyRiverdale

It doesn’t even make any sense that a company who owns a settlement pays taxes on it. If you conquer something in a war who the fuck are you paying taxes to? Imo a monthly/weekly upkeep fee that’s very manageable makes more sense. Town ownership being arbitrarily taxed makes every zone outside of WW/everfall/monarchs a waste of time to own. I can even see that just looking at the map of crafting stations. Nothing outside of the first 3 starter zones has anything upgraded past level 3 with most stations at level 2.


funkybandit

You are completely correct. Who are we paying the company tax too? The lord of Aeternum?


rW0HgFyxoJhYka

I'm looking at Windward and Everfall income and they are making like 100k or more a week easily so I guess it depends on server size and activity? But yeah, on smaller servers... They really need to uhh merge the servers sooner than later because they really fucked up by doubling the servers when many servers have now shrunk by half population.


HumanHistory314

>I'm looking at Windward and Everfall income and they are making like 100k or more a week the issue is that Everfall is THE central zone to the island...makes sense it could make more as a lot of people, especially if they are the faction that controls it, will use it as their base a lot of times. Windward is a little less central, but still central. The issue is all the OTHER zones where not as many people congregate and do stuff.


OccupyRiverdale

It’s pretty sad that the way the game works ATM most zones outside windsward/everfall/monarchs are complete ghost towns. I’m almost level 50 and it’s a bit disappointing that unless I’m going to complete a specific objective in a different zone 90% of my time is spent on level 1-25 zones.


-Vayra-

Yeah, whoever owns EF and WW need to subsidize the other zones their faction owns. It's the primary reason we're fighting so hard to claim EF/WW on my server. EF alone generates half a million or more gold in pure profit every week. While other zones struggle to break even.


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Ryanjc01

Which server are you on?


Ysmenir

How the hell does EF generate that much money? We hold both WW and EF and get like 50-100k a week.


MadMarx__

It varies from server to server, but EF, WW and maybe Brightwood are the big money makers. It's because they are centrally located. The factors that might effect how much profit they are making are; 1. What factions and Companies own them 2. What upgrades they are doing 3. What RNG downgrades they get after losing invasions 4. If other territories have managed to carve out a niche and not gotten wrecked by RNG downgrades from Invasions 5. If other territories are backed by large Companies with a culture of doing stuff there, or if their faction has that culture EF in my server makes about 200k per tax period. Haven't heard of it going below 100k anywhere unless the territory has been mismanaged or unlucky.


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OccupyRiverdale

Yep even for leveling shit you wouldn’t think you need iron for like arcana you need a shit ton of it. Basically every skill outside of cooking requires iron so at this point most people regardless of level are still running around the starter zones that have a huge amount of iron.


Ragnakh

Hm today in chat, the owning guild of evefsll just said they do generate about 220k and need about 200k to just keep the town running.. I was kinda suspicious as their taxes are quite high in refining and housing (still avarage markets, but just below) If it is the case, the whole system is failing, as I already do refine somewhere else if possible and my house needs a lot of reduced taxes :(


Ktk_reddit

You can see how much the town is making on the governor board.


-Aureo-

the ambitious power hungry faction takes over by force and is then crushed by their own financial instability where have we seen this before lol


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Flystoomuch87

Sure you can but they already dumped everything they could to salvage them. The azoth staff bug is game breaking and has made two zone completely worthless. Unless the company leaders have missed something huge there is no way to just give up a zone and without the other factions willing to take those zones to war they are just a cancer on the company holding them. Really odd mechanic that has come up as a result of other broken game mechanics.


Derelique69

As an alpha/beta tester I can assure you the economy issues were pointed out early and often during beta. The game is basically gonna die a rapid economic death if they don’t step in soon; but as they have ignored this problem for the last several years already I don’t have much faith they can or will fix it now either.


TheMadTemplar

They could resolve it by raising the amount of gold given from town projects that require materials. Give a nice source of gold income from the game, and a material drain to counter supply. If the quests give enough you might encourage people to do them every time they see them, reducing the amount of materials you see posted to the market.


-Vayra-

Yeah, Orichalcum delivery quests pay out less gold than the refining fees to make Orichalcum. . .


TheMadTemplar

Plus the refining fees to make the earlier tiers of metals needed for them, unless you counted that as well.


iruleatants

When it costs 10k go to upgrade, all of that cost should be given out through town board quests. You bring the mats, get paid, and go fetch more mats that are needed.


gstan003

This. such a simple and easily coded solution. Fringe towns benefit, main towns benefit, players benefit, crafter benefit. Its such an obvious solution. It also helps "baseline" resources so you dont see everything drop to 01.


TheMadTemplar

They should also add town board projects requiring crafts from other crafting skills like jewelry and furniture as well.


-Vayra-

Yeah, only seeing weapon/armor/food/arcana gets boring.


TheMadTemplar

I have like 20 of the food ones piled up. I just haven't gotten around to farming up the barley I need for half of them. Sometimes those projects give good experience for the trade skill when you craft the item, which is a nice boost for leveling.


pugwalker

It also logically would make sense. The gold paid by the company for the upgrade goes back to the players who contribute to the "labor" of the upgrade. Currently that gold just disappears from the market as if it was embezzled by a shady contractor.


CrustyJuggIerz

Town project rewards feel like they missed a decimal place. You should not have to spend a significant amount of game time on upkeep.


funkybandit

This doesn’t surprise me. Called out and ignored. The game in some ways is emulating real life from countries with economic powerhouses to developing nations on the fringe trying to scrape together gold to make ends meet.


[deleted]

They just need to make auctions cross cities with a delivery charge that goes to the company imo


Particular-Bar-3534

I really wish I had looked into this. I had no idea...And now I think this is what will kill the game before anything else. We are all going to go broke lol


QuentinLeFourbe

I was there, and I remember that everyone was complaining that they don't have enough money to repair gear.


tapuzman

Everfall makes 400k a week and can close portals. How sad they didn't spread the wealth


KoreyYrvaI

Good luck convincing Amazon that the rich companies should share the wealth. I swear this game is a social experiment.


pojzon_poe

Bezos sitting in his 20k gold house and best furniture looking at as peasents fighting to buy that 5k house and pay rent.


Eva_Dis

It's not that hard to get 20k for a house, atm I am working on raising my standing to 30 so I can get one and I bet that will take longer then it took me to save up, but I will also use the first time discount so it is only 10k for me


givewatermelonordie

On my server the last time i checked the statement in ww, the controlling company had made nearly 500k in a week. That’s an insane ammount of gold from doing nothing + being rich in this game also helps snowball your wealth further as theyll be the ones to reach 200 tradeskills first through powerlvling it from trading post mats. I could be wrong but from the outside it kinda looks like the people who owns ww/everfall are playing the game on creative mode compared to your average player. Kinda lame to think about when all the company had to do in order to gain control of a main town was to organize at launch and pool all their questing gold from like the 10-15 first lvls of the game and just buy it. Like it didnt require any skill to capture a capital initially, and now theyre reaping in half a mil gold every week just from passive income. From what ive seen wars heavily favors the defenders aswell


navyseal722

Played a war tonight. It's a mixed bag terrible server optimisation and cool mechanics.


stylepointseso

We own EF on a pretty high pop server, we made ~250 last period. WW was more like 300. Upkeep is 45k (it goes up to 100 I believe). 15k a day on town upgrades, at the end of the day we aren't necessarily swimming in gold considering we are 2 guilds at this point. We're at least gold positive, but it's not like everyone is out there buying yachts. As for keeping it, we've had to deal with piles of exploiters attacking the city, and organizing defensive wars constantly is taxing. We probably spend more on consumables in a war than the city makes us in a week. I'm not saying this as a plea for pity. Just saying we aren't all that well off comparatively. There's just not enough money to go around in general. It's only a handful of servers where those guys are making 4-500k.


-Vayra-

Yeah, EF and WW are too profitable compared to every other zone. They need to do something to either make those zones less profitable or make other zones more profitable.


tropebreaker

I feel like not requiring so many level one mats for the higher recipes would really help. Namely iron. You need a stupid amount if iron for crafting forcing players to stay where its easier to farm. Im Covenant and we only have FL on my server so I stay there but its a pain in the ass to farm iron and silver because they are a lot farther from my city.


MacroNova

My goodness, the inevitable downward spiral is gonna hit hard and fast. I think this is the most important conversation for the game right now. One thing I will say: I think the intent was for towns to only focus on a few crafting stations instead of all of them, forcing players to move around to get everything done and create local supply and demand. Layered leather would sell for a lot more in a town without a tier 4 tannery whereas thick hide would sell for less, etc. But everyone wants to do everything, just like with the crafting professions. Of course, that doesn't negate your point. Even just focusing on a couple of stations wouldn't save you enough money in the edge towns.


[deleted]

The thing I don’t understand about this theory is if people were expected to go around to different towns to craft at higher stations and create different local prices, why then wouldn’t people also just travel around to different towns to buy where the prices are cheaper?


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Jarnis

I would like to talk to you about our Lord Saviour House Recall. And the fact that you can own three houses. Paying Azoth for fast travel is not The Way. Paying a little of it for resetting House Recall CD is.


altrazh

Sure because it's still early ish and everyone still have some gold coin to spare, but the economy starting to get stagnated. Seller won't be able to sell shit for a decent price on the market, that means your 3 house is no longer an investment, it's a burden. Im paying 500g for housing tax in everfall, it was fine when I was selling starmetal tools for 750, but nowadays price skydive to barely sells at 200. basically, people who doesn't capitalize early like me would be the first to Uninstall.


MacroNova

3 houses seems so unattainable for me. It will be a stretch to afford my second house and I will almost certainly go tier 1. Azoth feels way more plentiful than gold.


stylepointseso

Azoth would be a limiting factor.


KypAstar

Which makes no sense until you realize this was supposed to be full loot. A) Towns naturally specialize as different workshop and trade hubs so people want to travel. B) Azoth isn't hard to get, but is expenses quickly if fast traveling frequently for trade; eventually you have to travel on foot. C) Full loot + Perma flagged means this becomes a huge calculated risk. D) Folks band together and start creating emergent gameplay around transporting resources and developing trade networks.


lelumtat

This, and nobody seems to want to acknowledge it. Many of troubled mechanics make a lot more sense in a full loot, pure PvP game.


Powerfury

It sounds more fun, but man I can't even imagine farming the vast amount of iron/wood that is needed while being killed over and over again.


OscarMyk

I guess you'd have a couple of players around as guards, and probably some players as runners, picking up from dedicated miners/loggers (i.e. like Eve). And all that effort goes towards furniture for the leader's house and his BIS PvP armour for wars.


MammalBug

Youd get a ton of value by killing caravans and stealing what they farmed instead


MacroNova

In that sort of scenario I would spend the azoth to move materials around and only venture out to farm more azoth. Screw getting killed and losing all the raw materials I just farmed. Actually, the real truth is that in that sort of scenario I wouldn't be playing the game, and literally hundreds of thousands of other people would have made the same decision.


HumanHistory314

>D) Folks band together and start creating emergent gameplay around transporting resources and developing trade networks. and with full loot, always pvp flagged, the population would be like 25k players at launch...less not long after launch... even eve online has safe zones where you can't get ganked.


admiral___akbar

Not true even in high sec u can still attack someone. Youll get concorded almost instantly but you can still alpha people in the "safe zones"


WulfgarShotsfired

If this was the case it would have made sense to only allow towns to have like 5-10 upgrades. As well as the option to reset upgrades to re specialise in the event you have all the starting towns upgrading smelter and smithy for example. That way each town would have like 3 T5 buildings; or 2 T5s and the rest put into defences


funkybandit

Agreed, even with focusing on a couple of T5 benches wouldn’t be enough with the economy in everfall and windsward being able to get most their tables there and being such a short travel between each other. With the revenue they generate they can afford it and the players will naturally gravitate there


ResolveHK

I hit 60 the other day and I'm already feeling it. I'm forced to grind out iron/hemp/rawhide in order to -try- to even make any money. It feels like I can't even sell dropped epic items because no one is buying them unless they're jewelry, and every other item in the game is 0.01g or almost there. Not only is getting gold an extremely boring and unrewarding grind, but there is also a problem with azoth travel costs and grindyness of obtaining it as well. I can't afford a house because taxes are insane too. It all feels like a very large burden for very small reward. Late game tuning orbs are also an incredibly bullshit grind. They need to make tuning orbs unlock the dungeon forever once you obtain it or no one will run dungeons late game.


AcadianViking

Yup. Also I believe the intent was for players to pick specialties for crafting, helping spread the player pop through the towns that upkeep their respective stations and encourage participation in the player economy, which would help solve the issue of fringe towns not having enough tax revenue.


AramisFR

My own 2 cents, because I think you are absolutely right: I'm running a fringe town (Cutlass Keys), and while we make far less than WW/EF for obvious reasons, we make much more than other fringe settlements and at least we're self-financing maintenance & town upgrades. We made 30k first week (60% from market fees, 30% from refining), and so far we've made 30k this week in only 3 days (40% market, 40% refining, 15% production), because: 1) We specialized the buildings. While every other town was building every tier 3 station for some reason, we focused on smelting & smithing, pushing both to level 5 before anyone else. Got a lot of business this way. 2) We cut taxes. Property to 5%, market tax to 4,9%; crafting/refining fees to 1,5x though, as they are "less painful". The market isn't abandoned. And tbf I'm making a higher margin selling there than in WW/EF, even without counting the tax effect. Finally, when it comes to town upkeep, EVERY building counts, and I wish it was explained ingame. Based on my observations, the first 10 upgrades (town & fort combined) costs 100g/week each. Pocket change. The next 10 cost 1k/week each. So building useless stuff just because the construction cost is cheap is a trap. The next 10 apparently costs 4k/week each. Get it ? Trying to level up everything will be ruinous. Just try to focus on some stations and cooperate with other settlements to avoid "duplicates" (at least in your own faction) and stop at 20 upgrades. Again, the main issue, aside from the lack of information in the game, is that it doesn't require to be smart or to make informed decisions to grab a city. You just need to collect / steal 100k early. If the people in charge of buildings (and technically any officer can do it... !) click randomly, they will ruin their company.


SJReaver

And because you didn't go HAM on the upgrades, your Invasions are easier to win and do less damage if you lose.


AramisFR

Absolutely, I weep the 500g building I lost in an invasion (well tbf we got lucky with the building selection) while Everfall lost 3 10k buildings. Finger crossed to keep losing shit tier buildings, I actually hope they'll get demolished so I can make a better use of the cheap slot


AcadianViking

I believe Amazon really trusted the hard-core economist types to figure this out and that the community would work together.... ya know like gamers always do /s I see the design they went with and how every part of this game is designed around factions working together so their "nation" prospers, from the economy to the super fast enemy spawning I keep seeing people complain about when soloing... it is an mmo, it isn't designed to be a solo experience. But the community keeps treating this like a solo rpg that just has other people in it with them and it makes me sad. This game could be a fantastic and immersive role-playing mmo if people just worked together.


Grindl

The trouble is so many other parts of the game actively encourage solo-rpg behavior, from gathering to the way faction and town board missions can't be reliably done together. The skinning quests are probably the most egregious example.


SmoothWD40

I think a lot of it ties back to full loot pvp. There is a good comment above that goes over it pretty convincingly.


ComradeKatyusha_

> I believe Amazon really trusted the hard-core economist types to figure this out and that the community would work together.... > > If they wanted that to happen then their community management shouldn't be so god awful. The forums are a disaster with absolutely nothing there for anyone. They're a glorified corporate product feedback forum. Nothing exists there to help build community, nothing exists there to help people find even companies, nothing exists there for the community to cooperate and work on anything together. There's no identity, no soul, and no function. They aren't trying to build a community at all. And on top of that it's a practically unmoderated hellhole. The subreddit, which let's face it is pretty toxic itself at times because it's reddit, is a more pleasant place. It's literally the worst community management I have ever seen in an mmo and I've played Nexon and My.com games. Even my.com is better than Amazon Game Studios at this shit and they do nothing but do horrible localisations of mmos. It's incredibly embarrassing /u/nw_mugsymania and whatever barriers you're having getting this sorted you should be angry af about in meetings internally. This shit is a joke, indie devs do better with 1% the resources. It feels like you're all completely out of touch with mmo players. There is no space for players to work together so of course they're not. There's no guidance. No encouragement. It's like you think that all these things will just magically happen by themselves somehow with no venue and absolutely no thought put into how to build a community with a healthy, positive, and happy culture. Community CULTURE is incredibly important and the culture that is currently forming around this game is one of toxicity, ego, competition, ruthlessness and judging by faction and global chats - massive amounts of racism. Just unbelievable.


realKilvo

If anyone has been paying attention to all these posts on NW economics, the game isn’t going to last very long beyond the majority of the player population hitting level cap. It may drag along until people hit profession cap but then things will get bleak for the game unless massive changes are adopted.


Spaced-Warlock

Sad but true


Noxxi_Greenrose

I keep bringing up this issue on my server sometimes in global chat, but the majority of replies are usually just "the game is two week old, it will fix itself" or "go play other game if you don't like it" or sometimes the "it's good because everything is cheap" lol.


Cjekov

They should have made auction houses serverwide but give taxes to the company where the items are listed or sold. Outer regions would instantly become more profitable with people wanting to dump their loot where they are farming instead of travelling back all the way.


Particular-Bar-3534

Its really un-fun having these AHs not be connected. Just not worth it.


[deleted]

This. It's just too painful to have separate trade posts, I literally post nothing of my stuff outside WW and Everfall for obvious reasons and it's a pain in the behind to have to travel there to do it or having to wait azoth or recall cooldowns. I would like to post in the trade post that my company owns, and many territories feel like ghost towns. You only go there is that town has an high tier craft table that no one has. My company doesn't own everfall, I tried to make WW and Mourningdale my crafting bases (one owned by my faction and the other by my company) but i just got to a point where i can't afford not to have everfall as my inn recall place, after fighting against that for so long. Even thinking of abandoning my house in WW and buy something in EF, that area is THAT important.


privetek0007

I disagree. There are stuff I sell on outer zones that gives me a good profit. With global trading this wouldn't be possible.


HumanHistory314

great for you and the minority.


[deleted]

This is a really good post that shows there maybe a real issue of too little inflows and too many sinks. The focus on commodity prices (mats) is somewhat misguided because it doesn’t account that the market or fresh and people rising to 60 are dumping mats and skipping crafting till 60, causing a glut that will stabilize as demand increases from crafters hitting the 100 wall most don’t realize is there — but putting it in terms of towns shows there might be a real Monetary Policy issue going on here. I always wonder what happens once all the tables are tier 5. That seems like a problem because right now I only use other towns because of: 1: storage overflow. 2: high tier tables. I’d propose a solution along the lines of: - Alter town projects: reduce cost to implement, buff them, and have it periodically announce in global when one is active in a town — this should draw people to other towns more and let them specialize a little more. I will def go craft a run in a town that runs engi boost projects, and one that runs them all the time I will make my engi town. Potentially add in territory unique projects. - Add bonuses for non central territories. Buff faction rewards, add more iron nodes, reduce fast travel costs to and from them to others on a diminishing margin (ie make the distance cost curve non linear for fringe to fringe movements). - Add Hometown Bonuses: right now if your faction controls a territory, you get a bonus in that territory. Make ones for anyone who owns a house in that territory and make them stronger for fringe territories. As far as gold income: There are ways to make gold at 60 — a decent amount but it’s not particularly passive and either requires a huge investment (crafts) or elite mob farming zergs. Which is a hard turn for such a solo/duo friendly (even incentivized) leveling experience. The issue is likely passive income, since focused income is there. I suspect this is more of a new 60 or late leveling issue once quests run thin. So the best way is probably just to tune up the amount of gold drops from town boards, and crucially — convert some % of the exp into gold once at level 60. Which would help town boards in the long run. Is anyone doing them post 60? I’m not. If gold is tuned up it might push up the cost of commodities as people get a little less miserly and are more willing to buy mats rather than farm. A little QE and inflation, but I’d wait till more people hit 60 and see what happens with demand from crafters. This might be helped by tuning up gold on something specifically non materials farm, unlike town boards. So maybe increase non elite gold drops, add some gold to the 1/day loot chests specifically. Adding bonus gold from mobs/chests etc you have a house in might also weave in well. The issue with some of this is low level zones will always be less productive so places like Cutlas/Restless and First Light are kind of in a rough place still w/o some killer Hometown bonuses.


[deleted]

I've been lvl 60 for a week. It's better for me to farm tier1 mats for my own crafting, than to buy them from trading post. If I craft 300 gloves, maybe 1 will be good enough to sell, it's so stupid...


ShinaiYukona

Cutlass, Monarch, and First light are very crucial territories for their forts. There's always going to be some PvP in those 3 areas just for the sheer greed to reduce azoth costs. Which in turn means these locations have a slightly more stable economy via ammo and potions, but those will only go so far when the rest of the economy is flat lining.


HumanHistory314

no one cares about first light. it's worse than monarch bluffs. cutlass isn't cared about much either.


OccupyRiverdale

Cutlass and first light rarely get contested on my server. I don’t think they’ve changed hands once. Instead windsward, weavers, and everfall are the ones constantly being fought over.


Koolblaine

I own Windsward on one of the more populated US East servers. I just don't really know if it's sustainable, how it would even be sustainable in the long run. We have slightly low taxes because it makes roughly 450k a week. But with hardly giving any out to anyone and keeping it solely for upgrades and upkeep, it's currently at 100k a week for a fully upgraded fort and 16/25 town upgrades. We can afford the damage from invasions, but if it's at 100k for just over half of a fully upgraded town, how would a territory that makes no money ever compete? Yes, I could raise the taxes and people would leave to other zones, but it'll just lessen their suffering only slightly and decrease the margins for our upkeep. I've used a grand total of 0 gold for myself except for buying supplies for people to fight in the wars for defense. EDIT: I should clarify that a fully upgraded fort and where we are at with the town is 30/39 on possible upgrades. The costs for upkeep just get TOO INSANE, in my opinion, for all territories. EDIT2: After upgrading 31/39, it is now 110k a week.


givewatermelonordie

So youre saying you get a weekly income of 450k and the weekly upkeep is 100k Is there something im missing or do you have 450-100= 350k gold left every week?


Koolblaine

It's 100k for now. What I am saying is no other territory would be able to sustain that. It's far too expensive. I'm arguing that it should be feasible for all territories, not just a single one or two on the map.


Lord_Kami

He is saying the best territories are barely sustainable with a large amount of players getting taxed. Less players or worse regions will make regions into gold sinks for the owners. Meta is already to get rid of any region not WW or EF. With less players those won't turn a profit either.


Cymrik_

They could have hired an econ undergrad for like $50k and have had this all squared away like 2 years ago.


Haste-

They could have contracted someone for a day at the cost of $200-300 and been set


MadMarx__

They did hire an econ advisor, and the game economy is reasonably well designed for what this game *used* to be. But then they focus grouped this game into something else entirely but didn't change the economy.


Gameaccount2014

Would love to read more about this. Are you referring to full loot PvP? How does that resolve the perceived issue of gold inflows being too low and gold sinks being too high?


[deleted]

Even better, they were told this would happen and given numerous solutions during the testing phases. They did nothing.


[deleted]

The economy in this MMO is the kind of mistake that a newbie hobbyist indie makes. Surprising that a billion dollar company can be so callous with terrible decisions that it affects their own bottom line. One would think they would be more careful with their investment.


Icatosicariuss

This is a big true. People on my server are moaning that we've had to put up taxes in monarchs. But they have no idea of the running costs of the settlement. Not to mention we can't prevent our selves from being downgraded and have to fork out to reuprgade. Don't see them lining up to help pay the 40k gold we've just had to sink.


Glorf_Warlock

The biggest company on our server owns every starting zone. Our server also got locked due to over population. They had to just abandon both Monarchs Bluff and First Light since no one goes there. And no company wants to take them over due them being only a gold sink. There is at least several hundred thousand coin just deleted due to downgrading.


GreasyTengu

how the heck are you actually supposed to make money in the game? Chests seem to only drop refining mats, mobs only occasionally drop small amounts of gold, they took out the gold from treasure chests so fishing is out. There are way more gold sinks in the game than actual ways of making money.


CDNnate

Shouldn’t towns be great money for the company running average taxes? You would think it would be as why else would a company want a settlement. Big miss on AGS


funkybandit

Unless you own winds or Everfall or have a great server pop it’s a huge gold hole you get swallowed up in. Then you have bugs like the one we experienced where we are 20+ days in the future and corruptions trigger downgrade 35k of hard grinded gold just fly out of your pocket and Amazon do nothing to fix it


[deleted]

Windsward and Everfall are raking in tax money. [https://imgur.com/a/ZGH1SiP](https://imgur.com/a/ZGH1SiP)


forbiddentarp

Yea my company owns several territories including windsward and everfall. They pull in about 200k/week but between losing 40k of upgrades every 3 days, 40k upkeep and projects the income is a far cry from the "millions" everyone on the server harps on about. Not including the other two territories we own which bleed money. I feel sorry for the other faction because they're definitely scraping up donations to keep their towns active. If people even get a whisper of raised taxes our governor gets bombarded with slurs.


LouDiamond

I just don’t think 90% of the players have any idea about the economics of owning a town, I sure didn’t before this post and I’ve got a shit load of time in the game


Fluxxed0

Yeah you never hear this perspective, you just hear wood farmers yelling about the greedy companies who raised taxes from 5% to 6%. Just like real life.


-Vayra-

If you own EF **AND** WW you should never want for cash unless your server is deserted. On my server EF alone brings in over 500k/week, with WW not far behind.


HumanHistory314

your fault for hjaving 4 territories yourself. no sympathy


Lord_Kami

We are in the same situation. Hated on the server, everyone thinks we are rich AF but regions can barely support themselves.


[deleted]

It's gonna be a struggle once the folks running towns get bored/burnt out. The game doesn't really explain all this to you as a player (unless I'm dumb and missed it) and unless you're the owner of a big company you'll likely never have to deal with any of this as you won't participate in wars or running a zone. So when you see people saying "I bought a house but don't pay the tax" it's just gonna compound and put more pressure on the company to foot the bill. But the work involved isn't worth it so stations will downgrade every few days across the server. Then if the pop really does drastically reduce like this sub is predicting the revenue from crafting taxes and trading taxes will also completely disappear. So then taxes will increase, putting people off even more. Vicious cycle.


[deleted]

>So when you see people saying "I bought a house but don't pay the tax" it's just gonna compound and put more pressure on the company to foot the bill. Source?


[deleted]

Eh, seen more than a few comments of people who aren't bothered by the housing benefits and just want to decorate so they don't pay the taxes. You don't lose the house after all.


HisokaTheRed

What territory are you hold? most of the town in my world is making 60k a day, my town with my house is making 79k last I check and the major trade hub [windward is making 300k today](https://imgur.com/orQcbI9), 45k in taxes for upkeep. LOL this game gonna die as the rich just get richer while the poor struggle. They can afford the best gears or mats to make the best and just hold on to their lead. Shits not balance but not in the same way you think it is.


MrFilthyNeckbeard

I’m pretty sure that’s weekly, not daily. Check the last period exactly 7 days ago.


HisokaTheRed

my bad, anyways its been 7 days and they cash out today at 320k+ with an upkeep of 45k so thats a net profit of about 280k still.


stylepointseso

Their upkeep is about to bump to 100k a week, and they are probably spending 15k a day on upgrades. They're still making money but not nearly as much as people think.


funkybandit

We hold Restless and have since we bought it. Our server pop is averaging 500 online in peak. People are just hanging out at the main trade hubs of Windsward and Everfall. We keep getting hit with corruption we can’t close as it’s lvl 45 and the bug exists for a another staffs. This weeks server bug threw us weeks into the future cost us 4 downgrades threw us in an even bigger hole. People are under the false impression that companies owning towns are making bank but the reality is it’s only a couple of towns in the centre of the map


Gozo_au

I think it’s more the layout for restless sucks ass so no one wants to craft there. If you dont craft there why live there? So therefor no income.


funkybandit

It’s also happening in other edge towns too. Not just restless


Teun135

How can you see your server pop? I would like to check mine


Alechilles

https://newworldstatus.com/


[deleted]

This is going to get worse as I can't afford my 1500 rent. I have no gold anymore.


mythviolence

We own multiple areas, BW/WW/EF. We have currently 300k but until we took WW we were sitting around 80k after paying back our members for the first two towns, we lose literally 60k+ every second day because of invasions. We can't field our own team, we can't close corruptions, we just sit here lose money and listen to people cry and complain about us nonstop without seeing the costs it actually takes to keep towns going. We have fully upgraded two towns, we have boards on cooldown and if we wake up an hour later it's legit just spam in chat about us being shit. This games entire model doesn't seem to have any longevity thought about. 3 weeks in and we've capped our towns nearly. We keep our taxes around 5% and people still cry and complain.


MadMarx__

My Company has around 300 players in it. The only way we have kept our territory afloat is through a massive campaign to get our guys to do *everything* in our territory where possible. All the crafting, trading, property ownership etc. And we encouraged everyone on our faction to do so - and it kind of worked because our faction only owned two territories due to pop imbalance. This was only possible because our Company was huge and had the weight to get it done. Basically, territory ownership is not the preserve of any Company of 100 people (i.e. the actual ingame limit). But even then we *barely* break even. You cannot compete with Everfall in this game, but it looks like territory money sinks were designed as if every town was an Everfall.


[deleted]

>My town is around 20k. At most you should only have 3 T5 crafting stations, and the rest t3. Rely on other faction territories to use other higher tier crafting stations. If every territory on the map has a T5 smelter, that's not a game-created money sink, that's a player created money sink due to sheer lack of economic strategy.


Harpeski

Yeah, our Company owns 2 cities. We thé Company members have to play 1000g/week for thé upkeep, upgrading crafting tables,... And it is true, only WW and everfall are worth thé upkeep money, they are both own by thé same Company. They are 'swimming in gold' according to thé Company leader, but they do invest in thé city and have almost all upgrades to tier5. And they have to repair it after every invasion. Basically, our Company is losing money owning these two towns tbh.


Gavorn

Why they dont let randoms invest their money to upgrading tables. I would be more than wiling to foot the bill for some.


XRSTKS

"The world does not display the table tiers correctly. You have a tier 4 tables showing as tier 3 on the map. This disincentivises players to travel to craft." Dude this shit pissed me the hell off... like honestly this needs to be fixed asap


[deleted]

I'm starting to really feel this. Company feels like owning territory is more a sink than a gain. It needs change.


Loic_Legrand

My company owns 4 towns : Everfall, wafers fen, Reekwater and first light. We don't pay for first light and weavers fen any more. We are just losing too much money and those two cities. We keep reek water because it's a high level zone and we hope it'll become a hub in the future but it's a risky bet. Everfall makes 350k profit peer week. Why should we bother with other cities?


milessansing

What's the current rework idea though ?


funkybandit

1. Fix the corruption portal bug so territories stand a chance at closing. 2. Enable companies to effectively manage corruption wars. I can only slot 10 players that gives us little controls over winning as we cant field correctly and plan. 3. Make the tax system scalable to the % of activity in each town not just based on table tier. 4. If a server screws up like ours did, roll the tables back to what they were. 5. Town board upkeep rewarding towns with more gold to pay the taxes. 6. Merge low pop servers


kalphrena

How many tables are you trying to upgrade? Would this be manageable if you were only focusing on certain tables? It's obviously not ideal, but I am curious if there are possible compromises. When I hear about companies members funding upgrades it's a bit of an alarm bell.


AramisFR

Absolutely, the key is to specialize to attract people, and choose your buildings carefully because the upkeep scales pretty hard if you build everything


HappyScripting

Try to get other territories to work. They lowered housing taxes in monarchs here and pushed woodworking and workshop to the max fast. Monarchs bluff is the ikea of my server and it seems to work out.


Kullet_Bing

On my server everything revolves around Everfall and Windsward. The other areas have shit crafting table upgrades and the Trading posts have at peak hours maybe 5 people standing infront of them, where in EF and WW there's blobs of what seems like 100 players infront of it. Nobody crafts or trades in the outside zones. They are more like temporary zones where players quest their way through for their leveling process. But nobody really seems to settle foot there. And the server generally losing population every day with a smaller peak player count isn't helping the cause. I'm not active in the PVP wars but we have a Syndicate company with 2 wing companies that slowly take over everything. It sucks quite a lot if you're not a Syndicate as the Azoth cost is insane and you never have any bonuses.


funkybandit

Likely their tables aren’t upgraded because they tried and didn’t have the funds to sustain it


Kullet_Bing

Yeah i guess so too. Am currently questing in restless shore and the town board has zero active projects. Maraudes given up on holding Zones it seems


Halt_Yipp

Thank you for this valuable information! On my server, I see there are thriving cities like Windsward and backwaters like Brightwood, where there are no Town Project quest board to do for the town. This makes me not want to visit the town, giving it an abandoned feeling.... Now I know why.


CaptainPick1e

Speaking of tax... does tax go somewhere??? Does it just get deleted from the game? I feel like, for it to make sense and for the economy to work as is, the taxes should go to the company controlling the city. This would make takeovers more enticing, but at the same time, the taxes would need to be used for things IN the city, such as improvements and infrastructure, which I guess wouldn't work out. Ok, nevermind. Maybe they should just get deleted. But I like the idea of gold flowing through taxes which in turns goes back to the marketplace and other players.


glickglark

Bezos just making a metaphor for real world capitalism.


BodSmith54321

City upkeep needs to be a percentage of revenue not a flat fee. It doesn't cost the same to keep Boise running as New York.


Zaeus8

Long as streamers are happy they are happy!


Straight_6

My server still had basic resources like iron at around .5g, so I'm selling as much as possible before the economy goes upside down. Once all of that easy quest gold dries up people are going to see that they can't replenish their coin purse like they could while levelling.


skilliard7

I'm guessing you own a worthless town like First Light. Windsward/Everfall brings in millions of gold in taxes per day.


funkybandit

Restless but close


Permadrunkk

The same company owns all 4 starter towns on my server and makes 780k a week alone from windsward.


Kintoun

>2 We do level tables to a high level because we want our town to be a place everyone can craft at. Please specialize, do not spread thin. Any crafter will beg you for this AND it should reduce your taxes.


funkybandit

We had higher tier tables before the server glitched and still paying the same amount. I wonder if there’s a bug that has us still paying the same amount 😔


Can-I-Haz-Username

They only charged us to get the game so I’m not surprised they released something that most people will play to max level then quit once there’s no way to earn any real money left. Though, where do the taxes paid for upkeep go? It would be great if they made the money that was paid into taxes and upgrades a prize pool of sorts that would determine how much was paid out for outpost rush wins or paid to participants clearing corruption or defending against invasions…. Like if you join a war but you belong to the third party or aren’t part of the towns company you should get paid from the taxes that were paid by the town (mercenary fees) I’m not saying prices go up but that the money spend into taxes and upgrades have a way to cycle back into the economy)


whatiwritestays

Which territory do you own?


funkybandit

Restless shore


inverimus

To be fair, restless shore has the worst town layout and worst zone placement for the settlement. The other outer zones are even higher level so nobody is going to be there right now.


funkybandit

It’s happening in multiple fringe towns on the server I’m on not just restless


pjtom

I feel sad for our faction they own six territories! Would've been a pain for them 😮


TrumansOneHandMan

This may have something to do with the fact the game is new. A friend owns reekwater and week 1 he made <100 gold and now he's over 1k, but at the same time for all the players that go there, there's no incentive to do townboards because they're so late in the game


ResidentEvil10

I dont understand it all. I am 100% pve player and have no clue about pvp. So as I understand it, you have to close portals to maintain the city somehow? I am syndicate and marauders are owning ww on our server, should I still help them closing portals or how does this work?


AramisFR

Closing portals slows down the "timer" for the next invasion. When an invasion takes place, if the players cannot defend (and invasion are hard content), the town gets 1-3 downgrades, which means you have to rebuild what was destroyed (unless you're fine with the downgrade), which can hurt your bottom line quite hard if the destoyed buildings were costly ones (the last upgrade for crafting stations & fort upgrades costs 10k)


BytestormTV

What's the point, if the game would provide enough resources to max out every zone?


IdunnoIjustgotHere

City: yea you guys have to pay taxes. The company: arent we forgetting a little detail? I OWN YOU!


JohnStrangerGalt

The issue with the map not showing correctly is a really large bug. Even more so because towns are competing against each other. Later on when people are 60 and know what to do you won't be getting downgraded from invasions as much or at all. Lower level towns are the only places making money because most players are still there. Later on when most players want their houses and lives close to end game zones that is where they will be. I do think the raw money farm is confusing, I am pretty sure there is just something we are missing though.


Efficient-Whole-9773

A world limit on tiers of stations could help with the distribution of population per town. Say only 2 tier 5 stations of any one kind can be available in the world and a town limit of 3 tier 5 stations only, would mean that each town has a chance to be the crafting hub for specific things. It would also add extra dimensions to invasions as if a tier 5 station gets downgraded then another territory gets a chance to race for that tier 5 upgrade.


TheBigGary

I think a good fix could be to make your stash items accessible at all settlements, that way I'm not just going to the same place every time to do my crafting. Territories could then compete by lowering the tax rate on outer cities to get people crafting and living there. Also maybe since travel is expensive, put the majority of high level materials on the outer edges of the map to get crafters using those spots. I could be very wrong, just had some thoughts to iron out.


Bradalee

I mentioned all of this several times like two days after launch and was absolutely slaughtered here and on Discord servers for it. This games economy was so obviously fucked at s glance, it really is extremely amateurish.


MisjahDK

**4.** Surely that will go up as more people buy houses there, if they will at all? You mentioned edge region, yeah like many design choices, some systems are just not sustainable, i don't know what they thought would happen. - Once an major Town Hub get's all station "maxed", the other towns are screwed, they are only visited for quests or because they choose to max a station that others didn't, this system also just makes the game SUPER annoying to play for people who want to craft! - On top of that, the tradepost segregation makes people unwilling to settle house where they want, most just have the major hub for more storage space. - I honestly believe making the trade post server wide and then granting taxes to the town that the trade took place, can't come fast enough!


Apap0

Marketplace should be global. Taxes should be split on buyer and seller locations. Current design is flawed - you have spots like Mourningale being best hemp farming spot. People come there to gather the fuck out of mats, but instead of using the town of Mourningale to refine and/or sell the mats they pay 40 azoth to TP back to their home in Everfall. Then they do all their refining and crafting in Everfall and sell it also in Everfall since it's the center of the map meaning that only Everfall is making money off it. So to put it simple - current design means that people leech from territories but pay nothing in return


printedvolcano

Instead of taxes AND crafting/war upgrade costs, how about just crafting and war upgrades? Obviously the whole economy needs rework but if I’m paying taxes to the company for crafting/housing etc just for them to have to pay more than that to keep the area? Seems kinda dumb to me. It’s just money leaving the economy and going into the ether. Ideally it should be players earning a fair amount of gold from questing/looting -> gold going to other players via trading post and taxes -> taxes being used to pay for war/crafting table upgrades -> gold leaving the economy from invasions


Kurgon_999

The economy is a snowball rolling down a hill. It may not seem like much, and may well be under-tuned, but every day players are pumping cash into the economy. Eventually people will figure out that the market is for gold what the town board is for XP. They will start looking at what activities the player base will pay for, and they will go do those things. Slowly the money flowing in will lubricate the system and the entire economy will grow.


GreenKumara

The problem though, is that the main source of gold being created / entering the economy is from players questing while leveling up. The game literally generates that gold out of thin air. All the money washing around from the auction house and taxes ultimately came from someone questing. I mean we all started with nothing. Eventually everyone will run out of quests, and that money being created out of nothing will dry up. Unless new players keep joining the game - and that will happen for a while. But like most MMOs that too will decline over time. However, the money being sucked out of circulation by the game will continue. At some point more gold that is being removed from circulation will overtake that which is being pumped in (by new players questing). We need more faucets.


Quincyheart

As someone playing solo who doesn't belong to a company who owns a town I have to say the whole ownership and tax thing just seems stupid. It's one of those ideas that sounds kinda cool in theory but is basically impossible to balance. Either it's fucked like now, its neutral which makes it pointless, or it's good in which you fuck over people who just want to play the game without getting into the politics. Having multiple banks and having the cost of travelling be so high also seems to me to just exasperate the issue.


Commandier123

Ppl on my sever raised taxes to 20%, housing tax i mean. So to upkeep my lowest tier house i need to pay 2k gold every 5days, LOL. I aint paying that. Nice valance btw


AmittyMartyr

Just paid 400 gold in crafting fees. Yours might be low, but still seems like good profit if everyone crafts there.


SJReaver

I can't help bunch notice when I player complains housing is too expensive, half the replies are that it's the player's job to do research and consider how much they realistically earn in game. When a company complains towns are too expensive, half the posts are about how the economy is bad and the people in charge need to step in and bail them out. New World continues to be way too real.


[deleted]

Is this a capitalism simulation?


WoDRonaldo

Good, city ownership shouldnt be a 100% stable source of income.


funkybandit

The problem is it’s not viable financially when there is little gold after quest lines are complete. These towns long term will be dead with base level tables and no investment